:00:40. > :00:43.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:44. > :00:46.The Prime Minister is on the road trying to sell his EU vision
:00:47. > :00:48.to the public, while back here at Westminster his party
:00:49. > :00:52.is firmly split over whether Britain should stay in or go out.
:00:53. > :00:57.Big business has come to David Cameron's aid this morning,
:00:58. > :01:00.with a third of the 100 biggest companies listed on the Stock
:01:01. > :01:01.Exchange warning of the dangers of leaving.
:01:02. > :01:04.But who do they represent, and what happened to the other two
:01:05. > :01:10.As the UK and Scottish governments wrangle over a deal on funding,
:01:11. > :01:12.we'll be talking to Labour's Scottish leader,
:01:13. > :01:21.Kezia Dugdale, about her plans to raise income tax.
:01:22. > :01:26.And then we're going to Washington, DC to take back the White House.
:01:27. > :01:29.As the race to become US presidential candidate continues
:01:30. > :01:31.to confound expectations, we'll hear from this man who nearly
:01:32. > :01:36.made it to the race to the White House.
:01:37. > :01:39.And MPs are dishing up a warning that the UK is in the grip
:01:40. > :01:42.of a curry crisis - are immigration rules to blame
:01:43. > :01:55.Regular viewers will remember a few weeks ago we were joined
:01:56. > :01:57.by the Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson as our
:01:58. > :02:02.Well, if you thought she had a tricky task ahead in this Scottish
:02:03. > :02:04.election year, today I'm joined by a woman
:02:05. > :02:08.of the toughest jobs in British politics -
:02:09. > :02:12.Zia Dugdale. Kes da Dugdale. Kezmania Dugdale. Dugdale There are
:02:13. > :02:21.a lot She's the leader of
:02:22. > :02:22.the Scottish Labour Party So the btirf Conservative truce over
:02:23. > :02:36.the referendum on our membership of the EU is well and truly over,
:02:37. > :02:44.with many of this morning's papers focusing on the widening division
:02:45. > :02:47.between MPs and the cabinet over Labour is relatively united
:02:48. > :02:50.when it comes to Europe, but not so much on the tricky
:02:51. > :02:53.issue of the Trident The latest party policy hearing
:02:54. > :02:57.on whether to replace it takes place this afternoon, and two former
:02:58. > :02:59.Labour defence secretaries - George Robertson and John Hutton -
:03:00. > :03:02.have written an article saying that Labour's defence review
:03:03. > :03:07.is "sliding into chaos". Is that how you see it? Not at all.
:03:08. > :03:10.There is no doubt a mixture of positions in the Labour Party on
:03:11. > :03:13.Trident. I inherited that when I became leader of the Scottish Labour
:03:14. > :03:15.Party, in my approach, to have a healthy democratic debate within the
:03:16. > :03:18.Scottish Labour Party. We devoted a day at our party conference in
:03:19. > :03:22.October for the party to get into the nuts and bolts of this and
:03:23. > :03:25.resolved that the position of the Scottish Labour Party was not to
:03:26. > :03:28.renew Trident and every penny than could be saved from that should be
:03:29. > :03:31.used to protect and invest in jobs in the communities affected in
:03:32. > :03:36.Scotland. But that's in the your shoe, is it? I'm a multilateralist I
:03:37. > :03:41.recognise on an issue that's complex, the way to deal with is a
:03:42. > :03:45.healthy, democratic way. Do you want to have Trident renewed or not?
:03:46. > :03:50.Everybody in the Labour Party is union nighted around seeing a world
:03:51. > :03:56.free from nuclear weapons. It is about the best way to do that. I'm a
:03:57. > :04:00.multi-naturalist and I'm leading a party which has taken a democratic
:04:01. > :04:04.decision not to renew Trident. That was very healthy, good debate. We
:04:05. > :04:08.have a leader in Scotland, you, and a matter in Scotland that don't
:04:09. > :04:11.agree on this issue and we have Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of the
:04:12. > :04:14.Labour Party and his parliamentary party that also don't agree, so,
:04:15. > :04:19.yes, you could call it an understatement to say there is a
:04:20. > :04:22.mixture of views. There is also a mixture of views in the terms of the
:04:23. > :04:27.unions in Scotland and nationally, it is chaos, isn't it? I totally get
:04:28. > :04:31.why there are mixed views across different parts of the party. Part
:04:32. > :04:35.of that is because there is new leadership in Scotland and across
:04:36. > :04:38.the UK. Both Jeremy and I are taking different approaches to resolve
:04:39. > :04:42.this. What is clear from the Scottish Labour position is we
:04:43. > :04:47.oppose the renewal of Trident and we would use any money we save from
:04:48. > :04:52.that to protect the job. That's an honest position when you compare to
:04:53. > :04:57.what the SNP say they would do. They say they would spend the money 12
:04:58. > :05:02.difference ways, whether in childcare, the NHS, a new army. Will
:05:03. > :05:03.you be making a submission? Scottish Labour will put forward its
:05:04. > :05:05.position. with what she said would be her next
:05:06. > :05:12.election battle bus. At the end of the show,
:05:13. > :05:27.Kezia will give us The Prime Minister has been visiting
:05:28. > :05:33.a business in where he's been hammering
:05:34. > :05:37.home his message that a vote to leave the EU represents
:05:38. > :05:48.a leap in the dark. And that message has been echoed
:05:49. > :05:51.by leaders of some of Britain's largest companies, who warn leaving
:05:52. > :05:53.would threaten jobs and put was signed by almost
:05:54. > :05:59.200 business chiefs, including the bosses of Airbus,
:06:00. > :06:05.HSBC and Marks Spencer. Together they employ more
:06:06. > :06:07.than 1 million people. They said the PM had secured
:06:08. > :06:10.a commitment from the EU "to reduce the burden of regulation"
:06:11. > :06:13.and to sign off on "crucial The signatories included
:06:14. > :06:21.the chairmen or chief executives of 36 FTSE 100 companies -
:06:22. > :06:24.an index of the largest companies However, campaigners for Britain
:06:25. > :06:31.to leave the EU point out two-thirds of FTSE 100 companies haven't signed
:06:32. > :06:34.- among them major firms They also claim smaller
:06:35. > :06:40.businesses are more sceptical about the advantages
:06:41. > :06:50.of staying in the EU. They have also been critical of
:06:51. > :06:52.number 10's involvement in organising the letter.
:06:53. > :06:55.Well, as I said, David Cameron has been speaking
:06:56. > :06:57.to an audience at a business in Slough this morning.
:06:58. > :07:02.This is a decision, though, that lasts for life. We make this
:07:03. > :07:07.decision and it is probably going to be the only time in our generation
:07:08. > :07:11.when we make this decision. I was determined to make sure the British
:07:12. > :07:16.people had the very best possible decision. So what I have done for
:07:17. > :07:19.the last nine months is to try and sort out some of the things that
:07:20. > :07:22.people are frustrated with, with the European Union. It is not a perfect
:07:23. > :07:25.organisation. No organisation is perfect. David Cameron, there.
:07:26. > :07:28.I'm joined now by Pete Chadha, who runs a technology business
:07:29. > :07:33.and will be campaigning for the UK to leave the EU.
:07:34. > :07:40.And by James McGrowery from the Britain Stronger in Europe group
:07:41. > :07:43.which helped organise the letter. Are you disappointed there weren't
:07:44. > :07:48.more FTSE 100 companies signed up to the letter? Not at all. 36 is a
:07:49. > :07:52.great result. 36 of the biggest companies that employ 1 million
:07:53. > :07:55.people in Britain, 1 million British jobs, all firmly saying we should
:07:56. > :08:01.stay. What happened to the other two-thirds? #w8, some have
:08:02. > :08:05.complicated corporate governance arrangements it would take a long
:08:06. > :08:10.time to sign things off. -- some of them have. I would say at the moment
:08:11. > :08:14.it is 36-0. There is not a single FTSE company coming out saying we
:08:15. > :08:19.should leave. I think it is a spectacular piece of spin to suggest
:08:20. > :08:24.a 36-0 is anything other than a pretty heavy defeat when it comes to
:08:25. > :08:28.this letter, to those wishing to leave the European Union. Is it just
:08:29. > :08:31.playing to fear, telling people it will be treacherous, difficult, if
:08:32. > :08:35.Britain leaves the UK, by saying the economy will be at risk? I think it
:08:36. > :08:40.is project reality, with you, Jo. You know, people who work in these
:08:41. > :08:43.companies, think, want it hear from their bosses, what the impact would
:08:44. > :08:47.be on this massive choice we face as a country. I think it is a perfectly
:08:48. > :08:51.reasonable thing to do to ask people who employ 1 million people in the
:08:52. > :08:54.country what the impact would be on investment, growth, and what the
:08:55. > :08:58.impact will be on jobs and have them state clearly they think for all of
:08:59. > :09:02.those reasons, we are much better off in the European Union. It is a
:09:03. > :09:05.big blow to your campaign because these are very powerful people in
:09:06. > :09:09.the sense they employ an awful lot of people and they have a very big
:09:10. > :09:14.say. Are you saying they are all wrong? I'm saying that they are just
:09:15. > :09:17.playing the card of risk and they are concerned about - you know, the
:09:18. > :09:21.changes that will happen and they have vested interests in keeping us
:09:22. > :09:25.within the EU. Real entrepreneurs like me, out there doing business
:09:26. > :09:29.with the rest of the world, we think we should leave the EU to be master
:09:30. > :09:32.of our own destiny and most smaller business people will say that.
:09:33. > :09:38.People in large corporations don't want the hassle of changing and the
:09:39. > :09:41.stock markets being nervous but Ron-term uks most entrepreneurs,
:09:42. > :09:44.real entrepreneurs who take risks every day with lives, believe it is
:09:45. > :09:48.the right thing. Is that an admission by you that big business
:09:49. > :09:54.will suffer, bigger corporation that employ a lot of people will actually
:09:55. > :09:59.suffer? Absolutely not but they have accountants and risk people saying
:10:00. > :10:03.better the devil you know, than the devil you development real business
:10:04. > :10:08.people out there, the man that uns are JCB and where is James Dyson.
:10:09. > :10:12.Why aren't they signing a letter? I'm in the in charge of a campaign
:10:13. > :10:16.and I'm not responsible for that. All I am is a businessman, providing
:10:17. > :10:19.my views that actually the long term, we will be much more in
:10:20. > :10:23.control of ourselves. They also have vested interest. People like Goldman
:10:24. > :10:28.Sachs and all the other ones, they play Europe for tax reasons. That's
:10:29. > :10:32.the real reason people are not picking up on. It suits them that
:10:33. > :10:36.they can send money through the likes of Luxembourg and Netherlands
:10:37. > :10:38.which the BBC showed a week or two back, they have vested interests in
:10:39. > :10:43.controlling our involvement in Europe. If we were independent, like
:10:44. > :10:48.Singapore, we are a safe haven for money this. Country can could great
:10:49. > :10:52.trade deals with the rest of the world. Isn't that the risk of for
:10:53. > :10:56.your campaign, you are seen as the big business campaign and in numbers
:10:57. > :10:58.terms, when you look at small and medium-sized companies and
:10:59. > :11:01.businesses, that is a large part of the population, involved in running
:11:02. > :11:05.their own businesses and employing small numbers of people and you will
:11:06. > :11:08.be seen as the establishment and vested interests Small businesses
:11:09. > :11:12.are the back bone of the country and employ millions of people in
:11:13. > :11:15.Britain, which ise think it is great there are a load of small business
:11:16. > :11:19.that is have signed the letter. You are making a big deal about the FTSE
:11:20. > :11:23.100 companies. It was the first question you asked, because they are
:11:24. > :11:26.big names. I don't think it is a matter of vested interests for tax
:11:27. > :11:30.reasons, I think they have vested interests, they employ 1 million
:11:31. > :11:34.people, I think it is a pretty important interest for a million
:11:35. > :11:38.families at home and the pay packets that depend on them. They can cope
:11:39. > :11:42.with the red tape that we hear a lot from the leave campaign better than
:11:43. > :11:47.small and medium-sized businesses Look at the survey that is have been
:11:48. > :11:52.done of small businesses. The FSB did one that had more supporting
:11:53. > :11:57.staying in than leaving. I'm not sure it is true. It was an FSB
:11:58. > :12:01.survey. There was a survey last week in Start Up magazine, I put an
:12:02. > :12:04.article there, I have a lot of support for small business who is
:12:05. > :12:07.actually think we should be out. Every businessman knows to be in
:12:08. > :12:11.control of our destiny is what we need to be doing. As a business
:12:12. > :12:14.person we take risks every day. There is going to be upheaval, the
:12:15. > :12:20.markets will complain a bit but long-term... The markets have
:12:21. > :12:24.complained, one of the biggest s that the uncertainty your business
:12:25. > :12:29.can take? I think these are just people playing the markets. Let's be
:12:30. > :12:36.fair. What are the consequences of that? The year or two the euro was
:12:37. > :12:40.?1 to one Europe. The markets are fickle and will always be. We are in
:12:41. > :12:44.a great position. We buy more than we sell to Europe, much more, we are
:12:45. > :12:46.in a great position, like a supermarket negotiating with a
:12:47. > :12:51.farmer, we are in a position of power. It is not a position of
:12:52. > :12:54.Norway and Switzerland. Except those are always the comparisons. I don't
:12:55. > :12:59.think they are valid, we are the largest market. Does this remind
:13:00. > :13:02.you, Kezia of the Scottish referendum battle and business came
:13:03. > :13:07.in quite late in the campaign. Did it help? I think it did. Nibbledly
:13:08. > :13:10.this is an argument about economics. It is about sustainability of our
:13:11. > :13:14.economy, it is about ou we bring jobs to our country and give young
:13:15. > :13:16.people opportunities. You have to remember, the Scottish referendum
:13:17. > :13:20.was two-and-a-half years' long of a campaign, this is a much shorter
:13:21. > :13:23.campaign. Day #1, you see businesses coming out, whereas much later in
:13:24. > :13:28.the Scottish referendum campaign. It is important but it is not the only
:13:29. > :13:34.argument. I think there is a particularly labour case about why
:13:35. > :13:35.we should stay in Europe, swoshgers rights, social rights, protecting
:13:36. > :13:39.maternity and approximate attorneyity leave. But the economy
:13:40. > :13:43.seems to be the main issue here. James, how involved were Downing
:13:44. > :13:47.Street? Did they write this, sign up everybody to it? Did they organise
:13:48. > :13:51.it in the way it has been reported? Tncht has been a joint effort from
:13:52. > :13:56.Britain Stronger in Europe campaign and the Government. -- It has B I
:13:57. > :14:00.don't think it is surprising. David Cameron has gone out to Brussels and
:14:01. > :14:03.come back and he is unambiguous, his position and the Government's
:14:04. > :14:08.position is to stay in the European Union. So it is hardly surprising we
:14:09. > :14:14.talk to businesses, large, medium and small to gain support. The leave
:14:15. > :14:18.campaign are causing number ten and Britain Stronger in Europe of
:14:19. > :14:22.co-ordinating this. Let me tell you, I know personal business people in
:14:23. > :14:25.the UK who will not support the leave "leave" campaign because they
:14:26. > :14:28.want to be on the right side of the Prime Minister but when you talk to
:14:29. > :14:32.day-to-day business, working in Europe, working, they all want to
:14:33. > :14:36.leave. They all want to... If that's true, why have some signed this
:14:37. > :14:41.letter. I have texts on my phone telling me - we won't say so,
:14:42. > :14:44.unless... Publish it. Are you saying businessmen and women don't know
:14:45. > :14:48.their own minds? No, they are dealing, obviously they are dealing
:14:49. > :14:52.with David Cameron from various different angles and they say - we
:14:53. > :14:55.won't go against the Prime Minister. That's exactly the words. These
:14:56. > :15:02.companies employ over 1 million people. I don't think they are
:15:03. > :15:05.saying it to carry... They employ 1 million, I don't think they are
:15:06. > :15:08.doing it to carry favour with one politician or another, this is
:15:09. > :15:11.integral to how they run their business, how they get investment,
:15:12. > :15:14.and create more jobs in the country. If you have all these business
:15:15. > :15:18.people supporting you, let's hear from them and have the debate. I
:15:19. > :15:22.don't think it is good enough to I a cert you have business support when
:15:23. > :15:25.there is a letter with 200 businesses making our case. All
:15:26. > :15:29.right. We will get you both back on I'm sure in the coming weeks.
:15:30. > :15:31.Yesterday, the Prime Minister answered questions in the Commons
:15:32. > :15:34.for three hours as he attempted to sell his package of reforms
:15:35. > :15:36.to Britain's EU membership and make the case for remaining in.
:15:37. > :15:39.Unusually, his biggest critics were behind him on the Conservative
:15:40. > :15:41.benches, while he was frequently cheered by Labour MPs.
:15:42. > :15:46.Let's have a look at some of the debate.
:15:47. > :15:51.We should be clear that this process is not an invitation to rejoin,
:15:52. > :15:59.Sadly, Mr Speaker, I have known a number of couples who have begun
:16:00. > :16:02.divorce proceedings but I do not know of any who have begun divorce
:16:03. > :16:08.proceedings in order to renew their marriage vows.
:16:09. > :16:12.Labour believes the EU is a vital framework for European trade
:16:13. > :16:20.A vote to remain is in the interests of people, not only in what the EU
:16:21. > :16:22.delivers today, but as a framework through which we can achieve
:16:23. > :16:31.Can I ask my right honourable friend, the Prime Minister,
:16:32. > :16:35.to explain to to the House and the country, in exactly what way
:16:36. > :16:41.this deal returns sovereignty over any field of law-making to these
:16:42. > :16:48.This deal brings back some welfare powers.
:16:49. > :16:49.It brings back some immigration powers.
:16:50. > :16:57.Does the Prime Minister have any idea what the consequences would be
:16:58. > :17:00.of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the wish
:17:01. > :17:08.Would the Prime Minister agree with me, that it is also not just
:17:09. > :17:09.about Britain's place in the European Union,
:17:10. > :17:12.but also Britain's place in the world?
:17:13. > :17:17.President Obama has been crystal clear that if Britain were to leave
:17:18. > :17:19.the European Union, it would weaken, not strengthen,
:17:20. > :17:24.The European Union is a failing organisation.
:17:25. > :17:31.A single market that shackles us with regulation that makes
:17:32. > :17:37.An immigration system that is betraying people
:17:38. > :17:42.And not to mention the eurozone, which thank heavens we are not
:17:43. > :17:46.So on the issue of migrants coming to Britain, coming
:17:47. > :17:49.to the United Kingdom, when will they first begin to be
:17:50. > :17:56.Don't tell us that he is going to work it out.
:17:57. > :17:59.Tell us today in this House, when are they first going to become
:18:00. > :18:05.Does he also agree it is not the politics of fear to point out
:18:06. > :18:08.that those who advocate a "no" vote, don't seem to know
:18:09. > :18:15.The Prime Minister has centred much of this
:18:16. > :18:21.Can he tell the House, in in his estimation,
:18:22. > :18:23.how much the welfare changes will reduce immigration from the EU
:18:24. > :18:29.Does he believe we have more influence in the European Union
:18:30. > :18:35.Surely the answer is more influence inside the European Union,
:18:36. > :18:38.That's why I passionately believe we must
:18:39. > :18:53.Joining us now is the DUP's Jeffrey Donaldson and Conservative
:18:54. > :18:55.Philip Davies, who have declared for the "out" campaign,
:18:56. > :18:57.and former cabinet minister Ken Clarke, who will campaign
:18:58. > :19:07.No surprise there! And our guest of the day, Kezia Dugdale, is still
:19:08. > :19:13.here and she is also backing and in vote. Let's talk about civility in
:19:14. > :19:16.the Tory party. Many people will have been surprised, including me,
:19:17. > :19:22.to read that the Primus to hug due at last night's 1922 committee. Is
:19:23. > :19:30.that true? It is absolutely true. Why? You'll have to ask him! Who
:19:31. > :19:34.didn't just randomly Gulf and hug you excite group we had a very good
:19:35. > :19:39.meeting of the 1922 committee and we were having a friendly chat on the
:19:40. > :19:43.way out and he just happened to have his arm around my shoulder. People
:19:44. > :19:47.probably took that as a loving hug. I disagree with the Prime Minister
:19:48. > :19:51.on many things, not just this, but we always get on very well and it's
:19:52. > :19:55.never about personalities but about the issue. If I fell out with
:19:56. > :19:58.everybody I disagree with, I wouldn't be speaking to anybody in
:19:59. > :20:02.the Conservative party. There is no need to follow just because we
:20:03. > :20:07.disagree. You say that but there has been a major falling out, clearly
:20:08. > :20:10.demonstrated by David Cameron's comments clearly indirectly directed
:20:11. > :20:15.towards America London, Boris Johnson. Steve Baker, one of your
:20:16. > :20:18.colleagues, reportedly as the prime minister to be kind to Boris Johnson
:20:19. > :20:24.and in the Telegraph today, Woody and hake has urged the Tories to be
:20:25. > :20:27.civil. Will you be civil? I think we will. We are centre-right party and
:20:28. > :20:32.nobody is denying that we don't agree Europe and never have entirely
:20:33. > :20:36.since been in but the Labour Party is a centre-left party and its very
:20:37. > :20:39.divided. The Labour Party rather specialises in disliking each other
:20:40. > :20:43.and they argue, where is the Conservative party has kept itself
:20:44. > :20:46.together. It is a party of government because we don't fall
:20:47. > :20:50.out. Philip and I don't fall out personally and this isn't the only
:20:51. > :20:56.subject we disagree on. William Hague obviously thinks there is a
:20:57. > :20:59.real risk of near civil War. Everybody put pressure on us to try
:21:00. > :21:01.to be more hostile to each other because it makes it more fun if you
:21:02. > :21:06.are trying to keep the campaign because it makes it more fun if you
:21:07. > :21:08.natural party because it makes it more fun if you
:21:09. > :21:10.great thing about the Conservative party is pretty well every
:21:11. > :21:13.Conservative wants to be party is pretty well every
:21:14. > :21:16.government and that makes us realise, apart from the fat we are
:21:17. > :21:18.also quite civilised people who don't fall out with all our
:21:19. > :21:22.also quite civilised people who opponents, that we can behave. I
:21:23. > :21:24.have a lot of friends in the Labour Party and I
:21:25. > :21:28.have a lot of friends in the Labour them. Does it look harmonious from
:21:29. > :21:31.where you're sitting? Not at all. I think it is a huge turn-off for
:21:32. > :21:35.voters and another big turn-off is the complete and utter lack of
:21:36. > :21:36.winning. Where are the female voices? Everything I've heard about
:21:37. > :21:41.the EU referendum debate has voices? Everything I've heard about
:21:42. > :21:47.done by men in suits. Anna Su Breanne Nicky Morgan come to mind.
:21:48. > :21:51.Now the members are campaigning on their own views, they will be quite
:21:52. > :21:58.Now the members are campaigning on forceful. It was dominated by Tory
:21:59. > :22:04.men. It was but the Tory women are not quiet. There is a real danger in
:22:05. > :22:07.this because this is ultimately about a country's future and it's
:22:08. > :22:11.going to be a democratic event in the form of referendum so people
:22:12. > :22:12.have to hear voices that look like and feel like
:22:13. > :22:17.have to hear voices that look like That's why women have to be up
:22:18. > :22:18.before of this. What about your comment, Ken Clarke, that we just
:22:19. > :22:22.played in that film, comment, Ken Clarke, that we just
:22:23. > :22:24.other outers don't actually know comment, Ken Clarke, that we just
:22:25. > :22:25.what a no vote means? That could be comment, Ken Clarke, that we just
:22:26. > :22:34.do vary. comment, Ken Clarke, that we just
:22:35. > :22:35.first referendum and we'll have a second referendum.
:22:36. > :22:41.first referendum and we'll have a that is what he thinks? That's what
:22:42. > :22:44.he's said several times. He is the only person saying that. Other
:22:45. > :22:47.Eurosceptics seem to only person saying that. Other
:22:48. > :22:51.nothing will change apart from the things that they object to, so that
:22:52. > :22:55.all the normal advantages of having access to the market will somehow
:22:56. > :23:00.still carry on and, in fact, there is a set procedure. Once you leave,
:23:01. > :23:03.and we'd have to leave if we vote no, you spent two years negotiating
:23:04. > :23:09.exactly what your future relationship is going to be. Other
:23:10. > :23:12.Europeans won't agree with British Eurosceptics and there will be
:23:13. > :23:16.distinctly restricted access to the single market. Is that how you see
:23:17. > :23:21.it? Do you know in your mind what out means? I certainly do and I'm
:23:22. > :23:25.from the only part of the UK that has a land frontier with another EU
:23:26. > :23:31.member state so we recognise fully the consequences of a decision like
:23:32. > :23:34.this. How would it work? It will work the way it worked before we
:23:35. > :23:38.joined the EU. We will have a common travel area. The Irish Republic is
:23:39. > :23:43.not in Schengen so it will be much the same as it is now and there will
:23:44. > :23:49.be a highlight of cooperation. I don't buy this idea that be you...
:23:50. > :23:53.That we are so dependent on it that we can't live without it. I think we
:23:54. > :23:58.can. And what I want to hear from Ken and others is not these kind of
:23:59. > :24:01.scare tactics and negative campaigning, I want to hear the
:24:02. > :24:06.positive case for what difference this deal will make in terms of
:24:07. > :24:09.actually bringing and delivering the reforms that the European Union
:24:10. > :24:13.needs, not just the UK but many other member states. I haven't heard
:24:14. > :24:16.that. I didn't hear it yesterday from the Prime Minister and I
:24:17. > :24:21.haven't heard it, with respect, from Ken. Do you accept that so far it
:24:22. > :24:24.has been a little like the criticisms during the Scottish
:24:25. > :24:29.referendum, negative, all about the dangers? I think we want to avoid
:24:30. > :24:33.the dangers of the Scottish referendum and the criticism had
:24:34. > :24:36.some foundation, in my opinion. I campaigned up there and I didn't go
:24:37. > :24:42.on just about the fear, although we were right about North Sea oil. Even
:24:43. > :24:47.yesterday, I made the positive campaign first but it was less
:24:48. > :24:56.newsworthy. I actually congratulated... We could influence
:24:57. > :25:02.events like international regulation trade deals and so on. Do you think
:25:03. > :25:07.rest Johnson has overstepped the mark by taking so long to make a
:25:08. > :25:13.decision? Many people felt that being mayor of London he would be an
:25:14. > :25:16.inner, to join the out campaign? Boris attends the Cabinet and the
:25:17. > :25:19.Prime Minister said the rules were that anybody who was in the Cabinet
:25:20. > :25:24.had to wait until he had concluded his negotiations before they could
:25:25. > :25:27.declare their position. As he attends the Cabinet, it seemed to me
:25:28. > :25:30.that it was never be right that he abided by the rules the prime
:25:31. > :25:36.minister set down. Do you think he's overstepped the mark? The Prime
:25:37. > :25:39.Minister was few readers about it and pretty well said so with all the
:25:40. > :25:46.comments about marriage and divorce and ambition. I watched it. He
:25:47. > :25:52.looked furious! He was teasing him with the divorce joke. I think if I
:25:53. > :25:57.was advising Boris, I would say he shouldn't have left it for two or
:25:58. > :26:02.three days so he could be on his own on the Sunday. He did give an
:26:03. > :26:09.ambiguous impression to what he did. Is he really pro-membership or is he
:26:10. > :26:12.not? He is kind of pro if we can get some concessions but, unfortunately,
:26:13. > :26:17.the concessions he wants are just incompatible being members of the
:26:18. > :26:21.EU. Let's think about later. Let's say Britain does vote to leave. What
:26:22. > :26:26.is the position, then, of David Cameron? Is he really then the man
:26:27. > :26:30.to negotiate Britain leaving the EU? I've always thought so. I wrote a
:26:31. > :26:33.letter to him a little while ago saying that if he lost the
:26:34. > :26:39.referendum, I didn't see why he couldn't carry on as prime minister.
:26:40. > :26:44.To you still feel that? What I felt yesterday was that he had sort of
:26:45. > :26:47.thrown his lot in with winning this referendum and if he didn't win, he
:26:48. > :26:51.was going to stand aside. By basically saying, which I understood
:26:52. > :26:54.it, he couldn't negotiate a better deal than Norway has got, even
:26:55. > :26:57.though we are the fifth biggest economy in the world, would indicate
:26:58. > :27:03.to me he doesn't really have much confidence in doing this they go
:27:04. > :27:08.Chez Chez. Is it right to say he is a poor negotiator? That may just be
:27:09. > :27:12.a view he is making at the moment to argue his case but anybody who says
:27:13. > :27:15.they couldn't do a better deal than Norway when we're the fifth biggest
:27:16. > :27:20.economy in the world and we have a ?70 billion a year trade deficit
:27:21. > :27:24.with the EU, if they can't do better than that and they are not fit to
:27:25. > :27:28.hold those negotiations. I've done a lot of negotiating in my time in
:27:29. > :27:30.Northern Ireland and I don't think the Prime Minister should have
:27:31. > :27:34.rushed into this. I don't think the deal he had on the table was enough
:27:35. > :27:38.and I think he should have held out. We've learned from our mistakes in
:27:39. > :27:42.the past, when you rush into things and pushed deals over deadline and
:27:43. > :27:47.you live to regret it. I think it is a rushed deal. We've got this 23rd
:27:48. > :27:52.of June referendum date. Again, we're rushing into that. I respect
:27:53. > :27:58.David Cameron. I think he has the ability to lead this country well.
:27:59. > :28:01.Would he and could he, if he loses, from his perspective, the referendum
:28:02. > :28:06.on June 23, would you still want him negotiating out? He is the prime
:28:07. > :28:09.minister of the UK. Whether he will want to remain to do that, I don't
:28:10. > :28:14.know. Would you want him to remain to do it? The Conservative Party won
:28:15. > :28:18.the election, absolutely. He needs to go in there and do what he can to
:28:19. > :28:22.negotiate the best deal. I just don't think the deal he has at the
:28:23. > :28:25.moment is the best one. It is a matter for the Conservative Party.
:28:26. > :28:28.I've been in a political party that's torn itself apart in the past
:28:29. > :28:33.four stopped I don't think the Conservative Party will do that but
:28:34. > :28:37.as to who reads the situation after the referendum, that's a matter for
:28:38. > :28:42.the Conservative Party. To pick up an Ken Clarke's point about a second
:28:43. > :28:46.referendum that Boris seemed to be flirting with, do you think that if
:28:47. > :28:50.there is a vote for the EU to leave -- the UK to leave the EU, there
:28:51. > :28:54.would be a second referendum in Scotland? The Scottish Parliament
:28:55. > :28:58.elections are a matter of weeks away and when we conclude those, there
:28:59. > :29:02.are seven weeks until the UK EU referendum. So if you believe that
:29:03. > :29:06.it is in Scotland's interest to remain part of the EU and the UK, we
:29:07. > :29:11.have to get on with making a positive case for why that is
:29:12. > :29:14.important. But with the calls be so loud that if Britain left the EU
:29:15. > :29:17.there would have to be a second independence referendum? You hear
:29:18. > :29:23.that call from Nicola Sturgeon every day. But you are there. I think we
:29:24. > :29:26.will move on to questions of currency. Nicola Sturgeon says she
:29:27. > :29:29.wants an independent Scotland to keep the pound. If we were to leave
:29:30. > :29:33.the EU, she would be in a situation where she was arguing for a sterling
:29:34. > :29:37.zone across the UK with Scotland being part of the EU but the rest of
:29:38. > :29:41.the UK not so her currency problems would be as big as they were during
:29:42. > :29:44.the last referendum. There would be a huge amount of unanswered
:29:45. > :29:47.questions for that debate. But you are campaigning on the same side as
:29:48. > :29:54.the SNP when it comes to this referendum. Yes and please to do so.
:29:55. > :29:58.What about the timing issue? Is it a problem? I assume that's why you
:29:59. > :30:01.made your comment about you would have liked a longer lead-in time. In
:30:02. > :30:06.Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales we got important elections in May
:30:07. > :30:10.and that creates a difficulty with the proximity of the referendum
:30:11. > :30:15.coming so soon afterwards. We would have preferred a longer time in
:30:16. > :30:18.which to discuss and debate on these issues but the prime minister has
:30:19. > :30:23.called it. We have to go with the 23rd. We will be there to put our
:30:24. > :30:27.case. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is doing enough to push the in
:30:28. > :30:37.campaign, to push Labour's remain campaign? We don't really hear very
:30:38. > :30:44.much from him on this. It's day 2 of the campaign. Well he hasn't changed
:30:45. > :30:49.his mind, he is supposedly an enthusiastic supporter according to
:30:50. > :30:53.Hilary Benn. I think there will be time Morientes Labour voices. We
:30:54. > :30:57.need to hear from Alan Johnson, I suspect we will do that, there is a
:30:58. > :31:02.strong Labour case for jobs, opportunities, children. And we have
:31:03. > :31:06.to debate those specifics about why it is good for the UK to stay where
:31:07. > :31:08.we are. Well, it is true, civil war didn't break out on this particular
:31:09. > :31:16.debate. Let's talk now about the race
:31:17. > :31:18.to become candidate for President of the United States,
:31:19. > :31:20.where political outsiders Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders
:31:21. > :31:22.are still causing an upset. It's a contest that
:31:23. > :31:24.can change overnight - and few people know that
:31:25. > :31:27.better than Howard Dean, who ran to be the Democratic
:31:28. > :31:29.candidate back in 2004. He led the field for months
:31:30. > :31:32.but crashed out of a contest that went on to be won by John Kerry,
:31:33. > :31:35.who was then beaten Well, Howard Dean was in London last
:31:36. > :31:40.night speaking to an event at Chatham House, and our Ellie went
:31:41. > :31:42.to meet him. We're going to California
:31:43. > :31:44.and Texas and New York. And we're going to South Dakota
:31:45. > :31:47.and Oregon and Washington and Michigan and then we're
:31:48. > :31:49.going to Washington DC to take back It became known as the
:31:50. > :31:54."I Have A Scream" speech. Having spent months
:31:55. > :31:56.as a frontrunner, Howard Dean was suddenly seen as being angry,
:31:57. > :32:00.over the top, not really fit to be A month or so later,
:32:01. > :32:05.he withdrew his candidacy. Of course I have some
:32:06. > :32:11.regrets that I lost. How fed up do you get with people
:32:12. > :32:14.like me keep asking about that I came in third in Iowa,
:32:15. > :32:20.and I should have come in first and that's because my campaign
:32:21. > :32:23.had a lot of problems, I don't mind being asked
:32:24. > :32:26.about it, I actually use it First of all, politics
:32:27. > :32:30.is a substitute for war and there is nothing
:32:31. > :32:33.fair about politics. Second of all, if you don't like it,
:32:34. > :32:37.then you shouldn't be running because whatever I got
:32:38. > :32:40.from the media, unfair as it was, and so forth and so on,
:32:41. > :32:43.is nothing compared to sitting across the table from Putin
:32:44. > :32:46.when he wants Alaska back. So if you can't stand the campaign,
:32:47. > :32:49.you certainly shouldn't be 12 years on, Howard Dean
:32:50. > :32:53.is throwing his experience behind another presidential
:32:54. > :32:59.hopeful, Hillary Clinton. I think Hillary's strength is that
:33:00. > :33:01.people know her and know she will do a good job
:33:02. > :33:04.and she knows foreign policy. She is the only person running
:33:05. > :33:07.who knows anything about foreign It doesn't often win elections
:33:08. > :33:15.but given how dangerous a place the world is these days,
:33:16. > :33:18.I think it does matter that she has expertise and she knows
:33:19. > :33:20.what she is doing. But Bernie Sanders, the other
:33:21. > :33:22.Democratic candidate, seems to know what he is doing, too,
:33:23. > :33:26.and is still very much in the race. When the primaries are over,
:33:27. > :33:29.it can be hard to create unity He is a very good politician
:33:30. > :33:42.and in close races it is hard I had to work for about a month
:33:43. > :33:47.to get my people to consider supporting John Kerry
:33:48. > :33:49.when I didn't win, so, you know, it is hard,
:33:50. > :33:52.it is a lot of work. On the other hand, the stakes
:33:53. > :33:54.are enormous, especially given Here is a guy, throwing punches,
:33:55. > :33:57.nasty as hell, screaming at everything else when we are
:33:58. > :34:00.talking and he is walking out, you know the guards are gentle
:34:01. > :34:05.with him, he is walking out like big high fives, smiling,
:34:06. > :34:06.laughing, I would like to punch him in the face,
:34:07. > :34:09.I tell you. He said things that would have
:34:10. > :34:11.killed most politicians And I think that the establishment
:34:12. > :34:20.of the Republican Party But, they may get
:34:21. > :34:23.beaten in this one. He is just a populist
:34:24. > :34:33.and is politically uncorrect is something will happen that
:34:34. > :34:37.nobody will predict. How much have you been following the
:34:38. > :34:45.campaign How much have you been following the
:34:46. > :34:50.Dugdale? Abit. I am trying to work out whether I like those ideas of
:34:51. > :34:54.rallies with the yeha at the end. What do you think about Donald Trump
:34:55. > :34:59.possibly winning the Republican nomination? Utterly frightening.
:35:00. > :35:06.Every country around the world I think will be fearful of that
:35:07. > :35:11.happening. I was pro President Obama last time. I set up a campaign 20
:35:12. > :35:17.campaign for him. What was it called? Scotland for Obama. How many
:35:18. > :35:20.people signed up? Lots of Americans based in Scotland at universities.
:35:21. > :35:24.So we had a rally in 2007. We had t-shirts. Because we did that
:35:25. > :35:28.through Democrats Abroad we were able it raise money and pass it on.
:35:29. > :35:32.You are not doing the same for Hillary Clinton? I'm a little busy
:35:33. > :35:36.with other things at the moment. Just checking.
:35:37. > :35:39.Now, is the UK in the grip of a curry crisis?
:35:40. > :35:43.partly to blame for migration policies say they're
:35:44. > :35:46.Here's the Labour MP Rupa Huq with her take on an issue
:35:47. > :35:55.Curry's always been on the menu for me in one way or another.
:35:56. > :35:59.My dad had two Indian restaurants at one stage.
:36:00. > :36:03.But whether it's a vindaloo, korma or chicken tikka masala,
:36:04. > :36:06.which the late Robin Cook called our national dish,
:36:07. > :36:08.these great British favourites are now in a fight
:36:09. > :36:21.Two curry houses a week are closing due to a range of factors
:36:22. > :36:25.including rocketing business rates and online delivery services,
:36:26. > :36:28.such as Just Eat, Deliveroo and Hungryhouse,
:36:29. > :36:36.which take a hefty cut, making margins ever smaller.
:36:37. > :36:39.The biggest threat of all is from new immigration rules.
:36:40. > :36:45.From next month, the cost of employing a non-EU chef goes up
:36:46. > :36:51.from ?18,000 to ?35,000, significantly above the UK average
:36:52. > :36:59.Eric Pickles introduced curry colleges, to great fanfare.
:37:00. > :37:10.Not one student has seen this course through to qualification.
:37:11. > :37:20.The new measures will exacerbate existing problems and cause dire
:37:21. > :37:23.staff shortages, adversely affecting the ability of British
:37:24. > :37:27.businesses to bring in skilled chefs from countries such as India,
:37:28. > :37:39.Pakistan and Bangladesh, as well as Turkey and China.
:37:40. > :37:42.The Government needs to think again and relax its restrictions,
:37:43. > :37:45.to allow skilled workers of all types to come here and train.
:37:46. > :37:47.After all, the ethnic food industry contributes billions
:37:48. > :38:02.We need now to save it and head off the coming curry crisis.
:38:03. > :38:04.Rupa Huq is here in the studio now, and the Conservative MP
:38:05. > :38:16.Come back rather than still being here. Is this a crisis, how are you
:38:17. > :38:19.quantifying it? Two curry houses are shutting down each week in the UK?
:38:20. > :38:24.Well crisis is overused in politics. But I think it is something, a wider
:38:25. > :38:30.malaise that hits the high street. So the staples of our high street
:38:31. > :38:35.that we knew as a child have gone. Gone there's no more Woolworths,
:38:36. > :38:40.obviously you can't bring back a dodo if it is extinct but there are
:38:41. > :38:44.things we can do to stop small businesses closing down, so two
:38:45. > :38:49.curry houses but shocking figures about pubs. It is about, as you say,
:38:50. > :38:53.Chinese restaurants, Turkish, kebab joints, they are closing, too. This
:38:54. > :38:58.is really just symptomatic, in your mind of what is happening? You are
:38:59. > :39:04.right, its a sector-wide problem throughout the catering industry.
:39:05. > :39:11.Ethnic catering. I had one that said ?5.5 billion, I heard that last year
:39:12. > :39:17.at Chinese new year, I don't know if this is' Chinese and Indian combined
:39:18. > :39:23.but they contribute to the economy and risk taking entrepreneurs. Why
:39:24. > :39:28.can't they get the chefs they need? A range of factors, some things can
:39:29. > :39:32.he can't do much about. The food prices are rising and against the
:39:33. > :39:35.weak wind it has gone wrong but the thing about immigration, the
:39:36. > :39:39.restrictions on non-EU migrants, they have changed the threshold T
:39:40. > :39:43.used to be you would pay them ?18,000. That has walloped up to
:39:44. > :39:47.?35,000. That surely is I will killing off the industry slowly but
:39:48. > :39:51.surely, it is a very high bar, ?35,000. Why does the Conservatives
:39:52. > :39:55.want to do this? Well, I'm aFreud this is a consequence of being in
:39:56. > :40:00.the EU. The can't Will Government can't control immigration from
:40:01. > :40:05.within the EU, it is having to put -- I'm afraid, it is having to put
:40:06. > :40:09.extra restrictions from people outside the EU so immigration
:40:10. > :40:13.figures don't get phenomenally high. Justifying the wages being paid from
:40:14. > :40:17.?18,000 to ?35,000. The Government are having to clamp down on
:40:18. > :40:20.immigration from outside the EU in anyway it can to make migration
:40:21. > :40:25.figures in anyway manageable. But they are not anyway. But if they
:40:26. > :40:29.didn't have restrictions, migration figures would be even higher. It is
:40:30. > :40:34.reality, isn't it? The only way that the Government can try and tackle,
:40:35. > :40:38.and in this case fail, to bring down net migration figures, is actually
:40:39. > :40:41.trying to make it more difficult for non-EU migrants to come here? There
:40:42. > :40:46.are other imagine in ative things you can do that wouldn't be a burden
:40:47. > :40:50.on the taxpayer -- imaginative. That wouldn't be a cost to the welfare
:40:51. > :40:53.state. You could make temporary visa, maybe for two years maximum,
:40:54. > :40:57.bring people n they have that in America, similar to the Greene card
:40:58. > :41:01.points' system thing that people could come and G it looks like
:41:02. > :41:06.recruitment of the host population, or whatever you call them, the Brits
:41:07. > :41:09.here, people like myself. My dad had two Indian restaurants, but I'm in
:41:10. > :41:15.the going into, that maybe the children of curry house owners don't
:41:16. > :41:17.want to do it. It has relied on subcontinental migration. There were
:41:18. > :41:21.the curry colleges, but they seem to have failed. They were set up by
:41:22. > :41:25.Eric Pickles and didn't do anything. Are they worth trying to reinvent? I
:41:26. > :41:32.don't think we need a state intervention. My constituency is in
:41:33. > :41:36.Bradford. We have massive curry places sane a massive part of my
:41:37. > :41:42.local economy. I have sympathy for the points being made. I don't it
:41:43. > :41:46.needs state intervention. One of my curry houses, the man who runs that
:41:47. > :41:49.has done work with Bradford college trying to train up chefs who live
:41:50. > :41:53.here and giving them the skills in order to do this. I think some of
:41:54. > :41:56.the curry houses and colleges can work together, to skill up people
:41:57. > :42:00.who are already here without needing to bring other people in from around
:42:01. > :42:04.the world. Is it a big problem on your high street? Very much so, I
:42:05. > :42:07.have met with people from the Bangladeshi community in Edinburgh
:42:08. > :42:11.who are anxious about the affect on restaurants in Edinburgh. Of all the
:42:12. > :42:15.sensationalist scare-mongering arguments I have heard in the past
:42:16. > :42:18.few days about why we have to leave the European Union, the idea that
:42:19. > :42:22.the curry is under threat, it is petty... It is It is a fact of
:42:23. > :42:26.immigration, that's why we have more restrictions. There are other things
:42:27. > :42:29.you can do. As part of a manifesto we were going to cut rates for small
:42:30. > :42:33.businesses. This Government doesn't seem to be doing that. What about,
:42:34. > :42:36.though, trying to do something from a Governmental point of view, not to
:42:37. > :42:40.do with immigration. There will be many people who will say - I cannot
:42:41. > :42:44.believe you cannot recruit locally? There must be qualified chefs within
:42:45. > :42:47.the communities like the Bangladeshi community that you can recruit from?
:42:48. > :42:51.There's just not. These are skilled jobs. There is a very strong
:42:52. > :42:54.argument from within the communities about why you have to bring people
:42:55. > :42:58.in to do the jobs. The Tory Government do not have to raise this
:42:59. > :43:02.threshold. It is an active political choice you are making. You can sit
:43:03. > :43:06.there and say you regret it and it is bad for your constituency but
:43:07. > :43:10.your Government is doing this, it is a choice. I have explained why the
:43:11. > :43:12.Government have had to restrict immigration from non-EU countries.
:43:13. > :43:17.It is a consequence of open borders from within the EU. You may in the
:43:18. > :43:21.like that argument t may be an inconvenient fact but it is why the
:43:22. > :43:26.Government are restricting non-EU immigration, whether you like it or
:43:27. > :43:29.not Come to the kunchts take decent skilled, jobs, pay the tax, invest
:43:30. > :43:34.in the fabric of society. I don't know what you don't like. These are
:43:35. > :43:38.entrepreneurial, risk-taking people. I want to control immigration from
:43:39. > :43:41.everywhere. If we had controlled immigration from within the EU, the
:43:42. > :43:44.Government could afford to be relaxed about immigration from
:43:45. > :43:49.outside the EU, that's a consequence of wanting to stay within the EU you
:43:50. > :43:53.have to face up to the consequences It is a cheap argument. It might be
:43:54. > :43:57.cheap, it is inconvenient, I appreciate but it is tru. That's why
:43:58. > :44:00.non-EU immigration has been restricted for that single purpose.
:44:01. > :44:04.Shouldn't the Government be doing more to get these people into work,
:44:05. > :44:07.one way or the other, rather than making it more difficult, putting
:44:08. > :44:11.the immigration issue to one side? Well I think we need to try and
:44:12. > :44:15.everybody can help to skill up people who are already in the UK. We
:44:16. > :44:17.have lots of people who are unemployed. We have lots of people
:44:18. > :44:20.from ethic minorities who are unemployed. I think that some of the
:44:21. > :44:26.restaurants and the colleges can work together to develop the skills
:44:27. > :44:31.that people who are already here, have the skills for the future. What
:44:32. > :44:34.is wrong with that? There used to be the possibility of overseas students
:44:35. > :44:38.working at curry houses at weekends. That was taken away by this
:44:39. > :44:43.Government. There are simple things that could be done. Do you people
:44:44. > :44:47.don't want to do it? I think this argument is ridiculous and to use it
:44:48. > :44:51.as a distraction to talk about the European Union, is cheap. What is
:44:52. > :44:56.your favourite curry? Chicken Madras. Chicken tikka McSallia,
:44:57. > :44:58.Robin Cook Madras. Chicken tikka McSallia,
:44:59. > :45:11.dish. What about you? Keala gosh. The deal, or lack of one,
:45:12. > :45:28.centres on how the block grant Brian, I won't ask you about
:45:29. > :45:35.favourite curries. We will talk about the fiscal framework. I like
:45:36. > :45:40.the really gentle ones. Let's get back to the substance of the matter.
:45:41. > :45:42.Are the various parties here preparing their exit strategies
:45:43. > :45:47.before a deal is even done? There's a bit of that going on. There is a
:45:48. > :45:52.bit of blame game going on. Both sides are saying, we will publish
:45:53. > :45:56.the papers as and when the negotiations break down, to show we
:45:57. > :45:59.were in the right. At the moment they are saying they won't give a
:46:00. > :46:04.running commentary on the individual details. John Swinney, the finance
:46:05. > :46:10.secretary at Holyrood, was appearing before MSPs this morning at 8:30am
:46:11. > :46:14.and he said that all other issues, like capital borrowing, the costs of
:46:15. > :46:19.transition issues, the money to be devoted to welfare, all of those
:46:20. > :46:23.were settled. The snag is that the one that remains is the big one,
:46:24. > :46:27.which is how to calculate the money that is reduced from the Westminster
:46:28. > :46:30.block grant to match the new income tax powers proposed for Scotland.
:46:31. > :46:34.You'd think it was simple. You'd think it would be ?1 and income tax
:46:35. > :46:37.and there for you have an extra pound in income tax and you take
:46:38. > :46:44.away ?1 and block grant. But it isn't as simple as that. Do they use
:46:45. > :46:48.an index system, whereby they calculate roughly what Scottish
:46:49. > :46:51.income tax take is expected to be, then match that against population
:46:52. > :46:59.share, much as against changes in the economy, and their four calculi
:47:00. > :47:03.eight -- calculate the settlement? Mr Swinney said there was a
:47:04. > :47:07.discrepancy between the Kaki oceans offered by the Treasury and the
:47:08. > :47:10.Scottish government. When I discussed this with Ruth Davidson it
:47:11. > :47:13.felt like we were right against the deadline and that was a few weeks
:47:14. > :47:19.ago. Here we are and there's still no deal. We are right against it in
:47:20. > :47:22.the sense that the Scottish Parliament will be dissolved on
:47:23. > :47:26.March 23 and they go into the Holyrood elections and that's the
:47:27. > :47:29.end of it. They're not right up against it in the sense that it
:47:30. > :47:32.could then be revisited by a new Scottish Government in talks with
:47:33. > :47:36.the continuing Treasury and they could try then to resurrect it. But
:47:37. > :47:41.the new powers are blocked. They are stalled until this fiscal framework
:47:42. > :47:45.is agreed. OK, it's a Westminster bill, the Scotland bill, but it has
:47:46. > :47:48.to be agreed and endorsed by Hollywood as well and John Swinney
:47:49. > :47:52.says that if there is no deal on the fiscal framework, there is no deal.
:47:53. > :47:56.He will not accept the new tax powers. They could revisit them. Mr
:47:57. > :47:59.Swinney said this morning that would simply be putting off the problem.
:48:00. > :48:02.We said there is a fundamental disagreement between the UK
:48:03. > :48:05.government and the Scottish government and they need to address
:48:06. > :48:09.that, rather than talking about ways round it, of putting it off for
:48:10. > :48:17.delaying. Is Scotland an election footing? Absolutely, very much so.
:48:18. > :48:20.Every parliament everywhere is an footing from one election to the
:48:21. > :48:25.next but they are very much in this mode. You have the SNP apparently
:48:26. > :48:29.riding very high in the opinion polls, you have the other parties
:48:30. > :48:31.trying to pick away at their record and saying it doesn't match the
:48:32. > :48:36.glowing opinion that they apparently have from the voters. Scotland is
:48:37. > :48:41.very much an election footing. Thank you. Kezia Dugdale, what is Scottish
:48:42. > :48:47.Labour doing in terms of the fiscal framework? What, in your mind, can
:48:48. > :48:50.be done to break the logjam? We support Nicola Sturgeon in her aim
:48:51. > :48:56.to get the best deal for Scotland. But what does that look like? It may
:48:57. > :48:59.be a big issue but surely everyone has thought about how much one
:49:00. > :49:04.should be reduced if the other is going to be increased in terms of 12
:49:05. > :49:09.taxation? I support what the SNP are calling for, per capita indexation.
:49:10. > :49:12.If Scotland can't control its immigration, how may people there
:49:13. > :49:16.are in the country, and we grow at a slower rate in the rest of the UK,
:49:17. > :49:19.we shouldn't be punished for that. No detriment principle is really
:49:20. > :49:23.important. It's not just about today but about five-years' time. I
:49:24. > :49:26.support her right and her goal to get the best possible deal for
:49:27. > :49:30.Scotland. And you'd be prepared to see this collapse to see the talks
:49:31. > :49:35.collapse, to see further devolved powers come to Scotland on the basis
:49:36. > :49:39.of this, you don't get what you say you share with Nicola Sturgeon? I
:49:40. > :49:43.want the best possible deal but there must be a deal. So you are
:49:44. > :49:47.prepared to make a compromise? I didn't say that. I would really like
:49:48. > :49:50.to see a deal before the Scottish Parliament elections because I for
:49:51. > :49:55.one would like to advocate how to use these new tax and welfare powers
:49:56. > :49:57.in Labour's manifesto for the next parliament but of its possible to do
:49:58. > :50:02.that before Parliament dissolves, I would like all the parties to get
:50:03. > :50:08.round the table, keep talking right up until polling day. Nobody should
:50:09. > :50:13.walk away from this to go Chez Chez. We must get the best possible deal
:50:14. > :50:16.for Scotland. It's great to see the SNP arguing to retain the Barnett
:50:17. > :50:19.formula. This is about redistributing resources across the
:50:20. > :50:23.whole of the UK. That's what people voted for in the referendum.
:50:24. > :50:27.Scottish Labour has proposed increasing income tax in Scotland.
:50:28. > :50:29.Some people would say that's madness. Any political party
:50:30. > :50:35.proposing an income tax rise doesn't win an election. The Scottish
:50:36. > :50:38.Parliament tomorrow will vote on its budget, the budget advocated by the
:50:39. > :50:42.SNP contains hundreds of millions of pounds of cuts to vital public
:50:43. > :50:45.services and education. They argue it because they just haven't got
:50:46. > :50:49.enough money to actually do what they would like to do so there have
:50:50. > :50:52.to be some cuts somewhere, better than increasing taxes on vulnerable
:50:53. > :50:58.and put people. We have protected vulnerable people. But we have been
:50:59. > :51:01.told the decades that the Scottish Parliament, the institution itself,
:51:02. > :51:04.would allow people in Scotland to take different choices to
:51:05. > :51:09.Westminster. Nicola Sturgeon, her whole adult life, her whole
:51:10. > :51:12.political career, has argued that more powers means fewer cuts. I'm
:51:13. > :51:17.saying we now have the power in Scotland to set income tax. This is
:51:18. > :51:21.the Scottish rate of income tax. It is the first time we've been able to
:51:22. > :51:25.set this rate. I'm advocating that we should set it 1p higher than
:51:26. > :51:29.George Osborne and in so doing, we don't have to make these cuts. For
:51:30. > :51:34.the first time, the Scottish Parliament has a serious power, a
:51:35. > :51:37.serious choice to take a different path for Scotland than Tory
:51:38. > :51:39.austerity. Is it working? The polls don't seem to be demonstrating that
:51:40. > :51:43.people are flocking to Scottish Labour as a result of that policy.
:51:44. > :51:47.There was a poll in the daily record that showed that 48% people in
:51:48. > :51:51.Scotland support the policy... They support the policy but are they
:51:52. > :51:55.supporting Labour? It is early days but I'm putting forward a very clear
:51:56. > :51:59.anti-austerity message. No longer will the Scottish Parliament just be
:52:00. > :52:02.a conveyor belt for Tory cuts. The Labour Party in Scotland is the only
:52:03. > :52:06.party with a clear anti-austerity message and I think that's what the
:52:07. > :52:10.vast majority of voters in Scotland want to hear. You say that but they
:52:11. > :52:14.are supporting the policy. People did support the individual policies
:52:15. > :52:17.of Ed Miliband - the energy freeze was popular for a time - but it
:52:18. > :52:21.didn't do him any good in the general election. They may support
:52:22. > :52:25.the policy but where is the evidence that people are supporting Scottish
:52:26. > :52:33.Labour? It is in that poll... For the policy. And the collection
:52:34. > :52:37.campaign has just started. The SNP are considerably ahead of Labour and
:52:38. > :52:40.it has been that way for some time. This problems of the Scottish Labour
:52:41. > :52:49.Party didn't happen overnight and won't be fixed overnight or by one
:52:50. > :52:54.person. The SNP was polling at 53%, Labour 22%. Is this some ploy for
:52:55. > :52:58.you to have an eye-catching policy to try to differentiate yourself
:52:59. > :53:02.from the SNP against whom you are making no dent at all? I totally
:53:03. > :53:07.believe that this is the right thing to do. I think the best thing any
:53:08. > :53:10.government can do in this modern age is investing its people. That's the
:53:11. > :53:13.only way we can compete it for future jobs and the skills race
:53:14. > :53:16.around the world. If we don't do that, we will pay a huge economic
:53:17. > :53:21.price and I'm saying that faced with a choice between using the powers of
:53:22. > :53:24.the Scottish Parliament to try a different track from Tory austerity
:53:25. > :53:28.or to try to pass that on, I choose to use those powers. What does
:53:29. > :53:32.success, in your eyes, look like for Scottish Labour in May? I've made a
:53:33. > :53:36.very clear plan to review the Scottish Labour Party, so people
:53:37. > :53:39.have to have a much clearer sense of who we are and what we stand for.
:53:40. > :53:43.The tax policy does that. I've talked about bringing forward new
:53:44. > :53:45.faces and we've just completed our selections. I've talked about
:53:46. > :53:50.renewing the Labour family itself. So why would you be a member of the
:53:51. > :53:53.Labour Party? What would be your benchmark for Scottish Labour? Will
:53:54. > :53:58.you be second or will you be pushed a third? I don't believe for a
:53:59. > :54:02.second that the Tories are going to come second in this election because
:54:03. > :54:06.Ruth Davidson is a Tory, just like George Osborne, just like David
:54:07. > :54:10.Cameron. She's advocated 1980s tax policies. She has no idea for the
:54:11. > :54:15.future. They're not that far behind you. She says that she would be a
:54:16. > :54:19.stronger opposition to the SNP, yet tomorrow she is going to vote for
:54:20. > :54:22.their budget. How can they possibly be a strong opposition in that
:54:23. > :54:25.context? Although you are standing with a flustered when it comes to
:54:26. > :54:34.these go Chez Chez on the fiscal framework. That is fundamentally the
:54:35. > :54:39.right thing to do with... How many constituencies will you win? I don't
:54:40. > :54:42.have that as a metric in my head because my job to review the
:54:43. > :54:46.Scottish Labour Party is far bigger than what happens in May. It is more
:54:47. > :54:50.fundamental than how many seats we have. When people cast their vote in
:54:51. > :54:54.the Hollywood elections, do you want them to think of you and Scottish
:54:55. > :54:58.Labour or the vision Jeremy Corbyn is advocating for Westminster? Me.
:54:59. > :55:02.I'm the leader of the Scottish Labour Party. It is my job to renew
:55:03. > :55:05.its fortunes. I can't do that single-handedly or on my own but I
:55:06. > :55:09.am in charge and I'm putting forward a strategy. It is my shadow cabinet
:55:10. > :55:13.that will put forward the manifesto. I will be the one out on street
:55:14. > :55:17.corners campaigning. As he convinced you that he could be Prime Minister?
:55:18. > :55:22.Jeremy Corbyn and I get on very well. Has he convinced you he could
:55:23. > :55:25.be premised? I believe very much that he wants to do that and he is
:55:26. > :55:29.driven by his principles. I am protocol to my friend. Do you
:55:30. > :55:38.believe he can do it? Yes, I believe he can.
:55:39. > :55:41.Now, we began the show saying that our guest of the day,
:55:42. > :55:43.Kezia Dugdale, has one of the toughest jobs in British
:55:44. > :55:46.politics as leader of the Labour Party in Scotland.
:55:47. > :55:48.Well, perhaps for that reason, it's also one of the jobs
:55:49. > :55:50.with the highest turnover in British politics -
:55:51. > :55:53.she is, in fact, the eighth person to lead the party
:55:54. > :55:54.in the Scottish Parliament since devolution,
:55:55. > :55:58.That's as many people as the Lib Dems have MPs.
:55:59. > :56:00.It's so many, we thought, it would be hard for anyone
:56:01. > :56:03.to remember them all and put them in the right order.
:56:04. > :56:05.But we've decided to let Kezia have a go anyway,
:56:06. > :56:11.I am here to help. I noticed you are looking worried so we are going to
:56:12. > :56:13.help you out straightaway because of course one Hollywood parliament came
:56:14. > :56:15.into existence, the first first Minister and previously Scottish
:56:16. > :56:18.Secretary was Donald Dewar. There he is. Kezia, a bit of fun, mainly for
:56:19. > :56:25.us, not you. Who came next? Henry McLeish. Straight out of the book.
:56:26. > :56:30.Obviously after the tragic death of Donald Dewar. Henry McLeish does not
:56:31. > :56:37.last long but can you remember why? A fiddle? Office gate they called it
:56:38. > :56:43.in the press. Early on, those big, big characters in Scottish Labour...
:56:44. > :56:52.You had a peek there. Who is next? Jack McConnell. Jack McConnell! What
:56:53. > :56:55.happens in 2007? We lose the Scottish Parliament election by one
:56:56. > :57:00.seat, arguably 40 votes in North Ayrshire and Aaron. So Jack
:57:01. > :57:06.McConnell goes. Who takes over? Wendy Alexander. Wendy Alexander
:57:07. > :57:10.does indeed. Do you remember what she said after she had to go, about
:57:11. > :57:16.doing the role? It was a personal thing about it. No, I don't. She
:57:17. > :57:19.said she'd regretted doing it quite so early because she had young
:57:20. > :57:25.children at the time. Who came after her? Iain Gray. Iain Gray did
:57:26. > :57:31.indeed. He might pop up later on. Who was after Iain Gray? Johann
:57:32. > :57:36.Lamont. That is the only pause you had. I'll give you that. That takes
:57:37. > :57:41.us right into this sort of period here and she's not going to stay on
:57:42. > :57:45.there, is she? She doesn't stay there long because of the Scottish
:57:46. > :57:47.independence vote. So who is next? I've got some tricky ones for you
:57:48. > :57:52.never stop those of the deputies? I've got some tricky ones for you
:57:53. > :57:57.Jim Murphy was the next leader and I was the deputy. That's true but
:57:58. > :58:02.there was two months of him, Anas Sarwar. Then Jim Murphy, of course.
:58:03. > :58:08.I said he might come back. There is one more before you.
:58:09. > :58:08.I said he might come back. There is me? Goodness me! Iain Gray
:58:09. > :58:13.I said he might come back. There is one more time. Our point being,
:58:14. > :58:18.there has been a lot of them. Is this a factor
:58:19. > :58:20.there has been a lot of them. Is its majority, or is it a symptom of
:58:21. > :58:22.there has been a lot of them. Is the SNP taking over? And, of course,
:58:23. > :58:28.you at the end. How long will you last? I think
:58:29. > :58:31.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:32. > :58:49.The armoured car. Do you need that when you are campaigning in
:58:50. > :58:52.Scotland? Is that why you chose it? That is the right answer.
:58:53. > :58:56.I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage
:58:57. > :59:03.of Prime Minister's Questions - do join us then.