:00:37. > :00:45."a profound economic shock" on the UK.
:00:46. > :00:48.So says George Osborne on a trip to China.
:00:49. > :00:52.But is this just the latest episode of Project Fear?
:00:53. > :00:58.Yesterday we were told just over 250,000 EU migrants came to the UK
:00:59. > :01:08.So why did over twice that number register to work here?
:01:09. > :01:10.You need to be good at sitting in small chairs and playing
:01:11. > :01:13.on swings - but do education secretaries make any difference
:01:14. > :01:28.How a new Labour Leader and a big decision on Trident has
:01:29. > :01:33.re-invigorated the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.
:01:34. > :01:37.All that in the next hour and with us for the duration today,
:01:38. > :01:39.two columnists united by their opposition to Trident -
:01:40. > :01:42.but not much else - Zoe Williams of the Guardian
:01:43. > :01:43.and Peter Hitchens of the Mail on Sunday.
:01:44. > :01:49.First this afternoon - what's the true level of immigration
:01:50. > :01:59.Yesterday the Office for National Statistics told us that
:02:00. > :02:04.in the year to September last year 257,000 EU migrants entered
:02:05. > :02:09.but over the same period more than twice as many EU migrants
:02:10. > :02:13.630,000 in fact, registered to work in this country
:02:14. > :02:32.by applying for National Insurance numbers.
:02:33. > :02:34.There is a clear discrepancy and it is a discrepancy
:02:35. > :02:37.numbers issued that's become increasingly visible over
:02:38. > :02:40.So, are the official migration figures significantly
:02:41. > :02:40.underestimating the real level of immigration?
:02:41. > :02:45.We don't know because it is hard it get all the facts and figures.
:02:46. > :02:47.Let's talk to Jonathan Portes of the National Institute
:02:48. > :02:50.for Economic and Social Research who has been looking into this
:02:51. > :02:56.Jonathan, let's begin - explain to us what is going on here? Well, the
:02:57. > :03:00.office for national statistics measures the immigration figures by
:03:01. > :03:04.a random sample of people coming into the country. He asks people who
:03:05. > :03:08.are coming in - are you planning to stay here for more than a year?
:03:09. > :03:13.That's the official international definition of what an immigrant is.
:03:14. > :03:18.Those figures have by in large served us well for most of the past
:03:19. > :03:22.few decades but what I noticed and you pointed out, it is an increasing
:03:23. > :03:27.discrepancy between those numbers and the numbers of people who, once
:03:28. > :03:30.they are here, register for a National Insurance number, which is
:03:31. > :03:34.what you need to do if you want to take a job, pay tax, pay National
:03:35. > :03:36.Insurance or claim benefits. Now there are good reasons for the
:03:37. > :03:40.discrepancy. We have known about them for a long time, in particular,
:03:41. > :03:47.if you are only here for a few months but still want to work work,
:03:48. > :03:50.you would register for a National Insurance number but you wouldn't
:03:51. > :03:54.officially be an immigrant but the discrepancy is large and has grown
:03:55. > :03:56.by a huge amount over the past couple of years and particularly
:03:57. > :04:01.apparent for European Union nationals. Something is going on and
:04:02. > :04:05.we don't know why. Let's come on to the information we would need to get
:04:06. > :04:10.to understand these figures in a minute. Let me put a general
:04:11. > :04:15.principle to you first - would most people not think that issuing
:04:16. > :04:20.National Insurance numbers - even broken down by nationality, which
:04:21. > :04:24.local authority is giving them - wouldn't that be a more accurate
:04:25. > :04:31.measure of people coming to this country, to works than a passenger
:04:32. > :04:35.survey at airports, which we understand was underweighted for
:04:36. > :04:39.airports like Stansted and Luton and others, where many were coming in
:04:40. > :04:43.from Eastern Europe You can use the two surveys for different things. I
:04:44. > :04:47.use the National Insurance data numbers myself to analyse the labour
:04:48. > :04:51.market impact because it seems to me to be a good measure of people
:04:52. > :04:55.coming here to work. But lots come here for reasons other than work.
:04:56. > :04:58.They may not be picked up by the national Ince insurance
:04:59. > :05:01.registration. In particular, children would be absent entirely
:05:02. > :05:05.from that. Equally people who come here as students who might need a
:05:06. > :05:09.National Insurance number for some reasons, for a few months or
:05:10. > :05:15.seasonal workers, they are not immigrants and shupted be counted as
:05:16. > :05:19.so, so are rightly excluded. Both measures tell us something useful.
:05:20. > :05:22.-- they shouldn't be counted. We need to understand what the
:05:23. > :05:26.differences are. And in particular, has the survey, which on the whole,
:05:27. > :05:30.which has worked well in the past, has it suddenly stopped working
:05:31. > :05:34.well. What information have you been trying - to be able to drill down
:05:35. > :05:38.into this discrepancy, you have been trying 20 get some more information,
:05:39. > :05:43.I think in particular from the HRMC. What is it you have been looking for
:05:44. > :05:47.and have you managed to get it? Well, what happened was, of course,
:05:48. > :05:50.the Prime Minister made some very dodgy, frankly assertions about the
:05:51. > :05:55.number of EU migrants who claim benefits. He based that on this
:05:56. > :05:58.data. People who register for National Insurance numbers and
:05:59. > :06:04.subsequently went on to claim benefits. I asked HMRC and the DWC
:06:05. > :06:07.-- if you know how many are claiming benefits, obviously you know, it is
:06:08. > :06:11.the same computer system, how many are paying tax, how many are paying
:06:12. > :06:14.National Insurance and so on, which of course would give us a much
:06:15. > :06:18.better idea of how many people had stayed on in the country for any
:06:19. > :06:21.length of time, how many of these National Insurance numbers were
:06:22. > :06:29.still active as people in the labour market. First the HRMC on the orders
:06:30. > :06:31.of the Treasury said we can't tell you that information because it
:06:32. > :06:36.might prejudice the Prime Minister's renegotiation, somehow. Excuse me,
:06:37. > :06:40.let me interpret you - the reason they gave was - if we knew the facts
:06:41. > :06:43.it might prejudice the renegotiation? Yes, that is the
:06:44. > :06:49.reason they gave. Were you not surprised by that? I was shocked.
:06:50. > :06:55.Since the end of the renegotiation, I, of course, have asked again and
:06:56. > :06:59.the reason now is - well, it would cost a few thousand, a couple of
:07:00. > :07:02.thousand quid or so, and we think that's too much money to spend on
:07:03. > :07:07.producing this sort of data. Before I bring our guests in, let me ask
:07:08. > :07:11.you this, since you have not been able to get the data that would
:07:12. > :07:17.allow you to do your job properly. What is your guess, if I can put it
:07:18. > :07:20.that way, as to the best explanation for the discrepancy between the high
:07:21. > :07:24.figure on National Insurance numbers, and the lower figure on
:07:25. > :07:29.actual migrants being clocked as they come into the country? I
:07:30. > :07:31.genuinely don't know. I have been ring round some of my other
:07:32. > :07:36.colleagues in the research community over the last couple of days to see
:07:37. > :07:41.if they have any good explanations. They don't know either. My guess,
:07:42. > :07:43.for what it is worth, is the survey data probably is somewhat
:07:44. > :07:47.understating recent levels of migration. On the other hand, it is
:07:48. > :07:50.probably also true that possibly more people arecoming here from the
:07:51. > :07:55.European Union on a short-term basis. So it is probably a bit of
:07:56. > :07:59.both but I wouldn't want it put any numbers on t which is why we really
:08:00. > :08:01.need the Government to release this data -- numbers on
:08:02. > :08:06.need the Government to release this data, it is there on the computer
:08:07. > :08:10.system. Whichever side you are on, on the Brexit debate or indeed on
:08:11. > :08:13.free movement of workers and immigration, and as you know my
:08:14. > :08:17.research show that is free movement and immigration has been very good
:08:18. > :08:20.for the UK, I think it is a good thing, but whichever side of the
:08:21. > :08:23.debate you are on, people outing to be properlily informed and the
:08:24. > :08:27.Government ought to be forced to disclose this data. Stay with us, I
:08:28. > :08:32.will bring the guests N if you are inclined to conspiracy theories,
:08:33. > :08:39.this would give you a field day. -- -- guests N I look at it like
:08:40. > :08:44.council tax. They know the British passenger research were low and they
:08:45. > :08:48.have known it for a long time but a Government that says they will use a
:08:49. > :08:52.different data set is the Government that gets hit with the negative
:08:53. > :08:55.headlines. So why do you think the insurance numbers we are giving out
:08:56. > :09:00.for people to work are twice as big as the numbers we are registering to
:09:01. > :09:06.come in? Well I'm certainly not going to say, if Jonathan Portas
:09:07. > :09:10.doesn't know, I know. There must be people the British passenger survey
:09:11. > :09:16.results have been low. It has always been said. 2-1 is a big discrepancy.
:09:17. > :09:20.As onthan was saying, ever since people looked at this there has been
:09:21. > :09:24.some kind of discrepancy but it has been growing and growing and it is
:09:25. > :09:32.now 2-1. Rather large. The figures I saw over a five-year period t comes
:09:33. > :09:39.in, using EU 1 million coming n verses 2.5 million NI numbers. That
:09:40. > :09:47.is crazy. Of course I'm interested but can I tell you why it is? No I
:09:48. > :09:51.can't. I claim it is as Hitchens' law, all political statistics are
:09:52. > :09:55.fiddled as a matter of course and the old bikini effect observed in
:09:56. > :09:58.the Soviet Union, statistics are more interesting for what they
:09:59. > :10:02.conceal than reveal and we obviously have a Government which has two
:10:03. > :10:07.different agendas, one, to pretend to be doing something about mass
:10:08. > :10:11.immigration and others who encourage it because economic policy relies on
:10:12. > :10:14.T which it does it is creating a will he-page credit-funded economy.
:10:15. > :10:18.That's what it wants to have. It wants large scale immigration but it
:10:19. > :10:21.needs to manipulate us into believing it is against. Are you
:10:22. > :10:26.claiming the Government knows a lot more people are coming in. Well you
:10:27. > :10:28.do. The National Insurance figures are knowledge, which the airport
:10:29. > :10:31.passenger figures are speculation. They are factual. The National
:10:32. > :10:34.Insurance They are factual. The National
:10:35. > :10:38.people who could be coming here to work for a short time. So they say.
:10:39. > :10:42.While the official migration figures, of the year, is the
:10:43. > :10:45.internationally recognised definition of a migrant. It is a bit
:10:46. > :10:49.like a difference between the classic crime figures which we no
:10:50. > :10:54.longer collect and the British Crime Survey which is an opinion poll. One
:10:55. > :10:56.is soiled fact, the other is a mass of politically-influenced
:10:57. > :11:01.speculation. It is easy to see why - why do we need it ask why the
:11:02. > :11:06.Government doesn't want people to know how high the level of
:11:07. > :11:09.immigration S Is it your contention that they have been deliberately
:11:10. > :11:13.understating it by a huge margin, knowing all the time their figures
:11:14. > :11:17.are wrong? Is that what you are saying Is South Karolina saying,
:11:18. > :11:21.when you find a turtle on the fence post, you know it didn't get there
:11:22. > :11:26.by accident, perhaps it is not deliberate. When did they last say
:11:27. > :11:31.that there? Quite recently. Plenty of reasons to do so. Back to
:11:32. > :11:35.Jonathan Portas. If we did a bit of crowd sourcing and could raise a
:11:36. > :11:39.couple of thousands of pounds, could we give that to the Government to
:11:40. > :11:47.give us the figures we need? I think they would say, you know, that's not
:11:48. > :11:53.how it works. I mean, I think they will eventually have to release more
:11:54. > :11:56.data, but unfortunately we are in this period when, you know, they
:11:57. > :12:00.have been publishing bits and snipts of it. They published a few more
:12:01. > :12:03.bits and snippets last Friday, at the same time the Government
:12:04. > :12:07.released its white paper on the renegotiation. But we need to be
:12:08. > :12:11.able to seat underlying data, the tables, all the rest which would
:12:12. > :12:17.actually give us this information. -- see the underlying data. I think
:12:18. > :12:21.Peter is exaggerating, I don't think it is a maligned conspiracy to
:12:22. > :12:25.conceal things from the British public but I do think the Government
:12:26. > :12:30.is deliberately holding back on releasing information that would
:12:31. > :12:35.undermine the story. I didn't say the words "malign" or "conspiracy."
:12:36. > :12:38.People do actually get together privately to pursue purposes they
:12:39. > :12:44.wish to conceal from everybody else. You may call it a conspiracy in the
:12:45. > :12:47.hope of dismissing it and make us think of hushed conversations by
:12:48. > :12:53.people wearing Guy Fawkes' hats but people do that and this he do it in
:12:54. > :12:58.Government. Whether it is malign or not, I would say it was, you may not
:12:59. > :13:02.think so. But be careful with the language you use to dismiss honest
:13:03. > :13:07.sceptical about Government obfuscation.
:13:08. > :13:10.We are here at the Daily Politics, interested in the fact, they
:13:11. > :13:14.intrigue us. It is the basis of the questions we ask. If there is
:13:15. > :13:17.anything we can do to help in your pursuit of these important facts,
:13:18. > :13:23.Now it's time for our daily quiz. today.
:13:24. > :13:26.The question for today is: which of these political parties
:13:27. > :13:28.has neither of our guests been a member of?
:13:29. > :13:44.At the end of the show Peter and Zoe will give us the correct answer.
:13:45. > :13:50.They'll fess up and tells us which ones they have been members of and
:13:51. > :13:57.which one they haven't. I know the reason. -- I know the answer.
:13:58. > :13:58.Now, we've seen some Johnny-come-latelies won
:13:59. > :14:00.round to the cause but there's a party that's been
:14:01. > :14:04.campaigning for a British exit from the EU for more than 20 years
:14:05. > :14:07.So, as Britain decides how to vote in June's referendum,
:14:08. > :14:09.UKIP are meeting in Llandudno this weekend to ready
:14:10. > :14:14.But the party's Scottish MEP, David Coburn, already knows what big
:14:15. > :14:17.issue he'll be campaigning on - toasters.
:14:18. > :14:20.Yes, Mr Coburn has complained that EU rules meant his toaster
:14:21. > :14:31.was under-powered: "Mine's on full boost and my bread's
:14:32. > :14:40.(That was a Scottish expression for pale."
:14:41. > :14:44.My old toaster seemed to be powered by the Torness nuclear reactor
:14:45. > :14:47.and this one is powered by some kind of EU windmill."
:14:48. > :14:55.Yes, Andrew, two old faces popped up in new jobs.
:14:56. > :14:58.Diane James MEP for South East England and William Dartmouth MEP
:14:59. > :15:01.for the South West were this week appointed as Deputy Chairmen,
:15:02. > :15:05.replacing the former Conservative MP turned UKIP candidate Neil Hamilton
:15:06. > :15:11.who earlier this year missed out on becoming UKIP's candidate
:15:12. > :15:15.The theory is she got burnt because she's following in
:15:16. > :15:17.the footsteps of UKIP's only Westminster MP, Douglas Carswell,
:15:18. > :15:20.which is to support the Vote Leave campaign in the European referendum
:15:21. > :15:22.rather than the Leave.EU campaign and Grassroots Out,
:15:23. > :15:24.which are being bankrolled by UKIP's big donor,
:15:25. > :15:37.Someone else who became toast this week is John Atkinson,
:15:38. > :15:40.in Carmarthen West because of a long-running row about how
:15:41. > :15:42.the party selects people to stand in the elections
:15:43. > :15:47.Some other high-profile Eurosceptics have appeared.
:15:48. > :15:49.Now that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are campainging
:15:50. > :15:57.have they taken a slice out of the attention usually
:15:58. > :16:14.I hope for your sake that Jo Co was not watching! LAUGHTER
:16:15. > :16:17.And we're joined now from Stoke by UKIP's deputy leader,
:16:18. > :16:23.Why is it that Nigel Farage seemed to turn on anybody that he sees as a
:16:24. > :16:27.threat? If you are referring to Suzanne
:16:28. > :16:31.Evans and Neil Hamilton being removed, we may declare, they are
:16:32. > :16:36.both standing in the elections, they will both have a huge role to play
:16:37. > :16:40.after May the 6th. Hopefully from within those respective assemblies.
:16:41. > :16:43.Neil from within the Welsh assembly, I believe that he will be elected,
:16:44. > :16:49.and hopefully Suzanne will be elected to the London assembly. We
:16:50. > :16:52.need people who are able to campaign full-time, Diane James and William
:16:53. > :16:56.Dartmouth are taking over roles particularly to look at security and
:16:57. > :17:01.deal with the issues of trade. Hold on, Ukip did not come into existence
:17:02. > :17:05.to have people on the Welsh of the London assembly is, you came into
:17:06. > :17:09.existence to take Britain out of the European Union. You have now got a
:17:10. > :17:16.chance to do that, with a referendum. Why would assemblies
:17:17. > :17:22.take precedence over your resonant that the? Ukip was created to take
:17:23. > :17:25.on the European Union but we are no longer a pressure group that is
:17:26. > :17:30.simply there to push other political parties and we are no longer single
:17:31. > :17:36.issue. -- why would assemblies take precedence over your raison d'etre?
:17:37. > :17:40.We have people elected in all four quarters of the kingdom, we are
:17:41. > :17:47.unique in that way in political parties there. That matters more
:17:48. > :17:53.whether you win or lose? No, listen, look, of course, the primary goal is
:17:54. > :17:55.to get us out of the European Union, equally, as a fully fledged
:17:56. > :18:02.political party, we will be concentrating on those elections as
:18:03. > :18:06.well. You say that you seem to waste energy on personal score settling,
:18:07. > :18:11.internal feuds, moving people around, joining organisations now
:18:12. > :18:15.that are so complicated that even people like me, who are paid to keep
:18:16. > :18:23.across it, cannot even keep track of all of the different names. You only
:18:24. > :18:27.have 17 weeks, which one are you in? What you mean? Am I him
:18:28. > :18:34.grassroots... Which one? Are you in the People's public of Judaea or the
:18:35. > :18:39.Judaea and is People's front(!) Ukip MEPs have made it clear that we are
:18:40. > :18:44.backing grassroots out but when the designation is given, then we will
:18:45. > :18:50.support the same campaign. What I want to appeal, to full glee, is
:18:51. > :18:56.this, but personalities aside, come together, let's have one unified
:18:57. > :19:00.Leave campaign. Then why has your leader sacked... People who have
:19:01. > :19:07.gone to the other side...? INAUDIBLE She has sacked... He does not like
:19:08. > :19:13.vote leaves, that is the truth. The truth is, Suzanne is standing in the
:19:14. > :19:19.London assembly election, writing the manifesto, and we need people
:19:20. > :19:26.who can work full time to campaign on the referendum. Look, Andrew,
:19:27. > :19:29.Andrew, Andrew, Suzanne... Let me finish, Suzanne and kneel,
:19:30. > :19:35.hopefully, we'll be able to campaign on the referendum issue after Mavis
:19:36. > :19:38.is, when they are both elected to their assemblies, they will have
:19:39. > :19:47.huge part to play in the future of Ukip, beyond being elected to the
:19:48. > :19:50.assemblies. -- Suzanne and Neil. Is there also talk of suspending
:19:51. > :19:55.Douglas Carswell, you're only MP, over his support for votes leave?
:19:56. > :19:59.That is the first I have heard of it. But it this way, it is something
:20:00. > :20:03.I will certainly be opposing, and it is the first I have heard of it,
:20:04. > :20:10.this will not be happening. Period. Now that Michael Gove and Boris
:20:11. > :20:13.Johnson seem to have signed up for votes leave, doesn't that mean that
:20:14. > :20:19.is likely to be the organisation that the electoral commission will
:20:20. > :20:23.choose as the official voice, the group that gets the money to
:20:24. > :20:30.campaign to leave the European Union? It is a big boost, but at the
:20:31. > :20:34.same time, the electoral commission will look at which organisation is
:20:35. > :20:42.most cross party, Grassroots Out has people from all walks, it has people
:20:43. > :20:47.from Ukip, labour, like Kate Hoey, even George Galloway, from respect.
:20:48. > :20:50.I think it is up in the air, but we want the same thing, all of us. We
:20:51. > :20:56.all want to leave the European Union. Campaigns are not
:20:57. > :21:05.contradictory, they are, entry. I hope that personalities can be put
:21:06. > :21:13.aside. -- Bayard complimentary. -- they are, the mentoring. The Prime
:21:14. > :21:17.Minister appears to put the case under half of all of those you want
:21:18. > :21:23.to stay in the EU, he puts the case for remain. Who puts the case for
:21:24. > :21:30.leave on that same programme? Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage? I would be
:21:31. > :21:33.amazed if there is a head-to-head debate... I'm not even talking
:21:34. > :21:43.head-to-head, I mean one after another. And Question Time audience,
:21:44. > :21:48.David Dimbleby, David Cameron giving the case for staying; who will then
:21:49. > :21:54.follow to give the case to leave? Boris Johnson, or Nigel Farage? I
:21:55. > :22:02.think that is a decision that Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage will have
:22:03. > :22:05.to look at. Who would you prefer? I would prefer to put it out to
:22:06. > :22:12.internal polling, who is most popular with different parts of
:22:13. > :22:19.society and communities. I do not know who can appeal to the most
:22:20. > :22:22.white section of people, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, I will take
:22:23. > :22:28.you ever can be most popular. The Chancellor is on a trade mission,
:22:29. > :22:32.this is what he had to say to the BBC buzz political editor, about the
:22:33. > :22:40.economic danger of withdrawing from the EU. -- BBC's political editor.
:22:41. > :22:42.I think the global economy is facing more risk and more uncertainty
:22:43. > :22:45.at any point since the financial crisis in 2008.
:22:46. > :22:48.So this would be the very worse time for Britain to take the enormous
:22:49. > :22:50.economic gamble of leaving the European Union.
:22:51. > :22:53.You have seen the value of the pound fall and it reminds us all that this
:22:54. > :22:57.This is about people's jobs and their livelihoods
:22:58. > :23:01.And in my judgment, as Chancellor, leaving the EU would represent
:23:02. > :23:04.a profound economic shock for our country, for all of us
:23:05. > :23:14.and I'm doing to do everything I can to prevent that happening.
:23:15. > :23:21.The Chancellor, in China, does it not concern you, that's not a single
:23:22. > :23:25.major economic partner to this country, of the biggest economies in
:23:26. > :23:30.the world, wants us to leave the European Union? Not one of them. I
:23:31. > :23:35.am more concerned about my own country, I am more concerned about
:23:36. > :23:39.the kind of country that I will hand onto my child... They are our
:23:40. > :23:44.trading partners. Who will we trade with? Actually, if we left the
:23:45. > :23:49.European Union, we could sign free-trade deals with these
:23:50. > :23:53.countries all over the world, we do not have a seat on the World Trade
:23:54. > :23:58.Organisation, the EU signs things on our behalf, and it is not proven
:23:59. > :24:03.very good. INAUDIBLE All of the other 19 to 20... Of
:24:04. > :24:08.them, that we trade with and export, we import, they are our economic
:24:09. > :24:09.partners, not one of them wants us to leave the EU, is that
:24:10. > :24:19.significant... Are wasted testing that if we left
:24:20. > :24:22.the European Union they would cease to trade with us, -- are we
:24:23. > :24:25.suggesting. We the fifth largest economy in the world, I am more
:24:26. > :24:29.interested by what the British people will say, them by what
:24:30. > :24:33.leaders of other countries will say. This is about Britain and our
:24:34. > :24:37.future, I believe we will be more free, more democratic, stronger, and
:24:38. > :24:45.outside of the European Union. Angular joining us. Between now and
:24:46. > :24:48.June 23, we will get the opportunity to speak several more times, I know
:24:49. > :24:52.that you will look forward to that. Peter, does it matter that there is
:24:53. > :24:58.all of these different out groups and they seem to be squabbling among
:24:59. > :25:02.themselves? Is it just... Is it just inside the Beltway, that view of
:25:03. > :25:07.things? Of course it matters, they will do each other damage, they have
:25:08. > :25:10.already done each other damage, it is laughable, it makes people think
:25:11. > :25:14.these people are not serious, it is a grave danger to the campaign that
:25:15. > :25:18.they act like this, it is a sign that they do not have true unity, as
:25:19. > :25:21.opposed out campaign has begun to include quite large numbers of
:25:22. > :25:25.important people do do not believe that Britain should leave the
:25:26. > :25:30.European Union, Dick Italy Boris Johnson and now Michael Howard.
:25:31. > :25:33.Neither of them want that, they want to put themselves at the head of the
:25:34. > :25:37.out campaign so they can turn it into a second referendum campaign.
:25:38. > :25:42.-- particularly Boris Johnson and now Michael Howard. Semi-other
:25:43. > :25:48.people, in economic terms, this has never been an economic question, --
:25:49. > :25:51.so many other people. This is a political project, it own leaders
:25:52. > :25:55.have always understood it has economic downside, particularly the
:25:56. > :25:58.euro, it is always had political priorities, the only country in
:25:59. > :26:02.Europe in which the European Union is discussed as an economic issue.
:26:03. > :26:06.It is a political issue whether we are to be a self-governing country
:26:07. > :26:09.or not. The division, the almost total inability of large numbers of
:26:10. > :26:14.people to even see this makes a serious debate very nearly
:26:15. > :26:20.impossible. In recent years, if you listened to the speeches of George
:26:21. > :26:24.Osborne or David Cameron, you got a constant stream of Euroscepticism.
:26:25. > :26:28.Sometimes quite virulent Euroscepticism. Doesn't that
:26:29. > :26:31.undermine the credibility when it comes on to television now, and
:26:32. > :26:36.suddenly he becomes the great Europhile? It does, there is a lot
:26:37. > :26:39.of addiction coming on, surprising to hear a lot of people suddenly
:26:40. > :26:43.saying we are the fifth largest economy in the world, when they have
:26:44. > :26:49.spent five years saying how broke we are. -- there is a lot of
:26:50. > :26:56.contradiction coming on. What is it, either we are a Goliath all we are
:26:57. > :27:00.David. The other, they have kind of marshalled and levied this
:27:01. > :27:04.Euroscepticism, it is a crowd pleasing thing. Just to prove how
:27:05. > :27:08.plucky they are. With no real sense of following it through. Now they
:27:09. > :27:12.are in the difficult position of making what is not even an economic
:27:13. > :27:17.argument, it is a purely fiscal argument. We will be rich if we do
:27:18. > :27:24.this, and poorer if we do that. That will not set on fire anybody's
:27:25. > :27:27.heart. There is a very profound philosophical difference between the
:27:28. > :27:33.kind of little Englander, wanting everything being back to the way
:27:34. > :27:37.that it was, no immigration, a return to British greatness, which
:27:38. > :27:43.is... Why do you call that little Englander, if it is a return to
:27:44. > :27:49.greatness, surely it is the reverse of that...! Sorry, I did not mean to
:27:50. > :27:53.be dismissive. No, I do get tired of that... That term... It is in a
:27:54. > :27:58.talented, but I did not mean it is to be pejorative. In the hedge fund
:27:59. > :28:00.vision, Lena, five eyes, allied with America. Free trade. Nothing about
:28:01. > :28:04.going back to the way that things America. Free trade. Nothing about
:28:05. > :28:07.work, nothing about putting the working man at the centre of
:28:08. > :28:18.everything. -- leaner. All about rabbit free markets. Full. . --
:28:19. > :28:24.raided free markets. -- rabid. You will still be under the control of
:28:25. > :28:28.the WTO, and all others interfering, the European Union is an old
:28:29. > :28:31.problem, to some extent, globalism has now taken over a lot of the
:28:32. > :28:34.things it used to do. We will move on now, because it is also
:28:35. > :28:40.springtime to the greens today. They're holding their shindig
:28:41. > :28:47.in Harrogate from where we're joined Wildie Green Party the campaigning
:28:48. > :28:54.strongly to keep us in the European Union? We will be calling for us to
:28:55. > :29:00.remain in the EU. -- will the Green Party. We are really gearing up at
:29:01. > :29:05.the conference in Harrogate but we also focusing the election campaign,
:29:06. > :29:08.we saw membership more than treble, 1.1 million votes in the general
:29:09. > :29:12.election, more votes in every general election we have had
:29:13. > :29:16.previously added together! Now we are focusing on the referendum but
:29:17. > :29:20.also focusing on turning the green surge into green seats in the London
:29:21. > :29:23.assembly, the Wales assembly and the council elections up and down the
:29:24. > :29:28.country. White is the party united behind you in wanting to stay in the
:29:29. > :29:32.European Union, do you have your own Eurosceptic wing?
:29:33. > :29:34.-- is the party united behind you in wanting to stay
:29:35. > :29:36.in the European Union, do you have your own
:29:37. > :29:46.In Bournemouth we had a call for a strong bold Remain campaign, about
:29:47. > :29:49.95% supported that. Of course, like everybody, everybody has people who
:29:50. > :29:53.have different views, in the Green Party it is easier to accommodate
:29:54. > :29:57.that and understand it. We understand people can express their
:29:58. > :30:00.own views honestly and faithfully, expressing their principled and
:30:01. > :30:04.their values. And we do not have any problem with that. You have lost one
:30:05. > :30:10.of your most prominent members to the other side, why is Jenny Jones
:30:11. > :30:14.taking a different view from you? Jenny has taken a position for
:30:15. > :30:18.decades, and as I said, I have no problem with that, but what we are
:30:19. > :30:23.saying is the Green Party is, we breathe European air, it does not
:30:24. > :30:28.stop at the borders! We have the waters, the seas... I thought that
:30:29. > :30:32.most of the wind of this country comes in the Atlantic! It does not
:30:33. > :30:33.blow in from France, it is North Atlantic air of! That is why it is
:30:34. > :30:46.so fresh A We need to get clean air, clean
:30:47. > :30:51.seas. We celebrate the free movement of people in the EU. And the free
:30:52. > :30:56.movement of air apparently. Work cooperatively, freely. I think if
:30:57. > :31:00.you look at the other side, they seem very keen it talk about fish
:31:01. > :31:04.and seem to act like they think fish have passports and stop at borders.
:31:05. > :31:08.They are not our fish. They are fish stocks that have to be managed
:31:09. > :31:13.sustainably for the future for everybody and that's how we have to
:31:14. > :31:17.work, cooperatively, internationally, for the good of the
:31:18. > :31:22.future. Do you think anybody is going tloisen to you. Aren't you
:31:23. > :31:27.losing members to Mr Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party now? - -- is going to
:31:28. > :31:33.listen to you? Very much not. We are seeing retention. You are losing
:31:34. > :31:36.members. Well members move around after elections. A number of your
:31:37. > :31:44.members have moved to Mr Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party. Well, we are
:31:45. > :31:49.seeing real success in elections. Two county councillors elected in
:31:50. > :31:54.elections in Dorset and over in Shropshire. Other only 3% in the
:31:55. > :32:01.poll. And just this morning... You are 3%. Well, I think what you will
:32:02. > :32:05.see is, we got 1.1 million votes in the general election. That was then,
:32:06. > :32:09.you are now down to 3% Accumulatively, together. We have a
:32:10. > :32:14.situation now where up and down the country and in London and Wales,
:32:15. > :32:17.these are, propartial ate election, like the Westminster elections
:32:18. > :32:23.should be. These are ex-wills that we can win, grow, we can win our
:32:24. > :32:28.first members on the Wales Assembly and grow the number of councillors
:32:29. > :32:32.up and down the country. Looking for directiveness on this. We won a bye
:32:33. > :32:35.election overnight. We are growing, developing in local communities
:32:36. > :32:40.where people really want a new broom sweeping through. People are fed up,
:32:41. > :32:44.particularly with one party states but also with councils where there
:32:45. > :32:49.are real two-party dish, bash, Bosch politics. People want new ideas,
:32:50. > :32:54.ideas for the future, initiatives. I'm not sure, Bishop, bash or bosch
:32:55. > :32:58.are running in this referendum but if you are the new broom. We have
:32:59. > :33:03.seen a lot of that already. Let me ask a question - why is it that the
:33:04. > :33:08.BNP - a party I thought no longer existed - why did they manage it
:33:09. > :33:17.raise more money in the last quarter of 2015 than the Green Party? I
:33:18. > :33:19.think the Green Party, we don't have millionaire or multimillionaire
:33:20. > :33:24.hedge funds towards us. Neither does the BNP. In the general election, a
:33:25. > :33:30.huge amount of money was raised through crowdfunding. People giving
:33:31. > :33:34.us ?5 or ?10. I'm seeing that starting up again. They didn't in
:33:35. > :33:39.the last few months Where we can elect more grooeps on to councils
:33:40. > :33:43.and our first Greens on the Welsh Assembly and grow our London
:33:44. > :33:46.Assembly representation. Thank you for joining us.
:33:47. > :33:49.You'll need to know your times tables, be good at sitting on small
:33:50. > :33:52.chairs and make sure you're not caught out in a spelling test.
:33:53. > :33:57.What other qualifications do you need if you want to be
:33:58. > :34:18.Could you be responsible for the hopes and dreams of every
:34:19. > :34:21.pupil and parent out there and still keep teachers happy?
:34:22. > :34:23.So, you want to be Secretary of State for Education?
:34:24. > :34:25.Local authorities ran education and universities very
:34:26. > :34:34.So, the thought that a Secretary of State for Education,
:34:35. > :34:35.in the early '90s was actually running education,
:34:36. > :34:43.Well, traditional trade union antagonism to any forward change
:34:44. > :34:48.in the education field was not unfamiliar to me, not least
:34:49. > :34:51.because I had been a teacher but I was surprised
:34:52. > :34:54.that they were not enthused, as clearly and as quickly
:34:55. > :34:58.I had absolutely no idea what floor my office
:34:59. > :35:09.was on and I had to go back to the security guard and say,
:35:10. > :35:11."I'm terribly sorry, I'm the new Secretary of State,
:35:12. > :35:14.I have no idea where my office is, any chance you can come
:35:15. > :35:19.None of us were macho women and all of us tried to run a more
:35:20. > :35:22.conciliatory department and all of us knew that if we didn't
:35:23. > :35:24.be careful, the word around Whitehall would be that the women
:35:25. > :35:28.I view it as one of the best posts in Government
:35:29. > :35:31.because you can do quite a lot and you can influence things
:35:32. > :35:36.Jill Rutter is a former senior civil servant and now
:35:37. > :35:40.She says Secretary of State for Education is a job that's
:35:41. > :35:45.Secretary of State for Education is one of the roles that has changed
:35:46. > :35:48.30 years ago, it was a pretty hands-off department,
:35:49. > :35:50.operated by issuing circulars to local authorities
:35:51. > :35:55.Since the invention of the National Curriculum
:35:56. > :35:57.in the late '80s, things have really started to change.
:35:58. > :36:00.We saw that and then we saw things like David Blunkett's literacy hour
:36:01. > :36:05.and then from 2010 we have seen a mass move towards academies
:36:06. > :36:11.Now the Department of Education has a direct relationship with large
:36:12. > :36:13.numbers of schools and it is trying to get a grip
:36:14. > :36:18.Lord Baker, who launched the National Curriculum,
:36:19. > :36:22.says education hasn't always had far-sighted Secretaries of State.
:36:23. > :36:24.There is a picture gallery in the Department of Education
:36:25. > :36:28.of all the Secretaries of State for Education since the war
:36:29. > :36:33.and there are two lines now and I've known all of them except two
:36:34. > :36:37.and some of them have been birds of passage,
:36:38. > :36:40.there for a few months, there for a couple of years,
:36:41. > :36:43.having little interest or effect, making sure the boat doesn't sink
:36:44. > :36:45.under them and protecting their backsides, as it,
:36:46. > :36:50.And others have been very good, since.
:36:51. > :36:53.One of those regarded as a big reformer says he was confident
:36:54. > :37:00.I used to joke that I'd get some satisfaction in my dotage,
:37:01. > :37:05.drinking a nice glass of red wine and reflecting back that
:37:06. > :37:07.although people may not remember who it was that had done it,
:37:08. > :37:10.there were things that were going to still be there,
:37:11. > :37:12.working well, transforming the lives of young people and I'm looking
:37:13. > :37:18.Reform is impossible for any Government,
:37:19. > :37:23.Some of whom aren't your allies, but you need them.
:37:24. > :37:29.The thing that I used to have to say to fellow ministers,
:37:30. > :37:33.frankly, who used to say - well can't you do something about...
:37:34. > :37:38.I mean the fact is, no minister can be in every classroom.
:37:39. > :37:40.The person that is in every classroom is a teacher
:37:41. > :37:44.and so you have to have a well-motivated, really well-trained
:37:45. > :37:50.Alan Johnson agreed but found it wasn't the teachers
:37:51. > :37:57.The biggest problem we had wasn't with that, it's what to teach.
:37:58. > :37:59.Everyone tells you they want this in the curriculum,
:38:00. > :38:02.they want that in the curriculum and particularly, you know
:38:03. > :38:14.the nostalgaists, who want what was in their curriculum in
:38:15. > :38:17.1944, "We should resuscitate it", and the school day would have
:38:18. > :38:19.to last for 25 hours to get even half of what people wanted
:38:20. > :38:23.Once you started that, you need schools, which you don't
:38:24. > :38:28.We were saying that - here is what we are about,
:38:29. > :38:31.here is why we have a common purpose and these are the things
:38:32. > :38:34.which we think we can do together, to deliver what you want,
:38:35. > :38:37.which is your school doing better and children in your school
:38:38. > :38:39.achieving and that sense of hearts and minds and winning
:38:40. > :38:46.If we had said - here's an injunction, they just weren't going
:38:47. > :38:50.In Ken Clarke's day, the civil servants urged him
:38:51. > :38:59.They didn't think I was getting into schools enough.
:39:00. > :39:03.I won't say which of my predecessors...
:39:04. > :39:06.Ted Short it was, they said, "Oh he used to go seven or eight
:39:07. > :39:11.I wondered what on earth Ted thought he had been doing in seven or eight
:39:12. > :39:20.I also strongly suspected that they wanted to get me out
:39:21. > :39:22.of the office and stop me doing things.
:39:23. > :39:25.And just send me around doing the pictures for the local paper
:39:26. > :39:27.and the handshakes with the headteachers and,
:39:28. > :39:33.But Ed Balls found he caused enough mischief when he was in schools.
:39:34. > :39:37.I'm afraid I'm responsible for rather more extra school discos
:39:38. > :39:45.I always use to say to the kids - do you think you need more discos?
:39:46. > :39:47.Massive roars of approval and the headteacher would sit
:39:48. > :39:53.there and think - my goodness, why did we invite this guy?
:39:54. > :39:55.Charles Clarke liked being invited to do the job.
:39:56. > :39:57.He didn't much like being asked to move on.
:39:58. > :40:00.I had been President of the National Union of Students.
:40:01. > :40:02.I had first come into working in national politics
:40:03. > :40:05.for Neil Kinnock when he was Jim Callaghan's Shadow Secretary
:40:06. > :40:12.I believed and believe that good education policy is the core
:40:13. > :40:18.I was very sad when Tony Blair asked me to move.
:40:19. > :40:22.In fact, I had an argument about it at that time when he was offering me
:40:23. > :40:24.the role of Home Secretary because I felt it was such
:40:25. > :40:29.Estelle Morris thought the same and famously stood down as Secretary
:40:30. > :40:32.of State, having been a successful Schools Minister.
:40:33. > :40:37.If I'm honest with myself, if I'm really honest with myself,
:40:38. > :40:42.as much and I just don't think I'm as good at it
:40:43. > :40:46.I'm not having second best in a post as important as this.
:40:47. > :40:55.I wanted to spend much more time on the business in the department
:40:56. > :41:03.And there are two bits of Secretary of State.
:41:04. > :41:06.You have got to run your department, which I think I did quite -
:41:07. > :41:10.I think I could do but there is another bit and it is crucial
:41:11. > :41:12.and it doesn't exist in the Minister of State,
:41:13. > :41:14.you have to manage politics across Whitehall.
:41:15. > :41:18.Estelle Morris was excellent at the job and I was really sad
:41:19. > :41:23.that - and this applies too often to really good people -
:41:24. > :41:25.that her confidence was knocked when she was Secretary of State.
:41:26. > :41:27.You do need enormous confidence which sometimes
:41:28. > :41:37.If you can get the balance right without being an absolute prig
:41:38. > :41:41.on the one hand and being afraid you are not doing a good job
:41:42. > :41:48.on the other, that's the balance you are always trying to seek.
:41:49. > :41:51.It seems a job ensuring the good teaching of lessons to children
:41:52. > :41:59.can often teach those doing it lessons about politics.
:42:00. > :42:05.Our Giles on the Secretary of State for Education. Who has been the most
:42:06. > :42:08.effective in recent years, do you think? It infuriates me this
:42:09. > :42:13.conversation, they talk about it as if they are making political
:42:14. > :42:17.decisions. The current Secretary of State for Education has absolutely
:42:18. > :42:21.changed the early years curriculum and made schools' lives a nightmare.
:42:22. > :42:28.Morale is really low among teachers. Five-year-olds are being told they
:42:29. > :42:31.are failures, routinely and we kind of have these object truce air diet
:42:32. > :42:35.conversations about whether you want to be across Whitehall or across the
:42:36. > :42:39.department. I asked you who was the most effective in recent years?
:42:40. > :42:49.Clearly not the current one in your view. Effective sno sn who has had
:42:50. > :42:56.the most effect. Tony Crossland in 1965 by abillionishing selection.
:42:57. > :43:00.And another one and two vandals. All the rest have been failing to repair
:43:01. > :43:04.the damage they Z Estelle Morris, terribly nice person and all the
:43:05. > :43:09.rest, David Blunkett atrociously he set into law that you could open no
:43:10. > :43:11.new selective schools in the state system, he should possibly join
:43:12. > :43:16.them. They have all been effective. You don't like any of them. No,
:43:17. > :43:21.education in this, state education in this country is a colossal dises
:43:22. > :43:24.aer. We have had four sets of statistics in reports this week
:43:25. > :43:28.showing the teachings of maths has declined. That children from poor
:43:29. > :43:32.homes can get nowhere in our society. This is all the result of
:43:33. > :43:36.the same thing, the destruction of selection. It is the result of
:43:37. > :43:38.people being Secretary of State who have never been teachers. It is
:43:39. > :43:42.particularly pronounced in recent years. They literally have no
:43:43. > :43:47.expertise at all. They do not listen to any of the people who have done
:43:48. > :43:49.the work on it and sprinkle in completely ignorant policies which
:43:50. > :43:54.change peoples lives. They have too much control. Once you have got rid
:43:55. > :43:58.of the principle that good schools could govern themselves, which was
:43:59. > :44:01.quite possible in a selective system, and you have endless
:44:02. > :44:07.interference of national curriculums and centralisation. Well... And
:44:08. > :44:12.nationalisation which is what the academy system involves, total
:44:13. > :44:14.central control of the schools, it's catastrophic, the meddling in
:44:15. > :44:18.schools by ministers in Whitehall, will not put schools right. You have
:44:19. > :44:25.to create conditions in which good schools can thrive and flourish and
:44:26. > :44:29.that means academic selection. It is infuriating to agree with 50% of
:44:30. > :44:34.what you say and disagree violently with the other 50% I absolutely
:44:35. > :44:39.agree. The problem s the expertise is in the wrong hand. It is being
:44:40. > :44:41.centralised. It is the arrogance of Government ministers thinking they
:44:42. > :44:46.can run something they do not understand. Why would someone on the
:44:47. > :44:50.left like you favour a system which supports the rich? I don't support
:44:51. > :44:54.the current system. I have been complaining for it. Why are you in
:44:55. > :44:57.favour of the fairer system? I'm in the? Why not, it was much better
:44:58. > :45:01.than before. Actually it wasn't better for the poor. If you look at
:45:02. > :45:05.counties where grammar schools are still in operation, pupils on free
:45:06. > :45:09.school meals do worse. If you look kaent, it serves the poor very much
:45:10. > :45:16.worse than neighbouring counties. That's bus they are a tiny besieged
:45:17. > :45:20.rump. So, we have evidence of the system that you laud, and because
:45:21. > :45:22.the evidence doesn't suit you. In Northern Ireland which retains a
:45:23. > :45:24.selective system the prospect for poor children, particularly of
:45:25. > :45:29.getting to University rch better than they are on the mainland I
:45:30. > :45:31.don't understand why your data has to take precedence over mine. Better
:45:32. > :45:37.data. Remember the days when the Campaign
:45:38. > :45:40.for Nuclear Disarmament could get thousands and thousands
:45:41. > :45:42.of people on to the streets? Well, it's happening
:45:43. > :45:44.again this weekend. CND reckon their anti-trident march
:45:45. > :45:46.planned for London tomorrow will be And it's back to the drawing board
:45:47. > :45:50.for the artist who provided many of the period's
:45:51. > :46:07.most striking images, I could have gone to an exhibition
:46:08. > :46:12.about gardens at the Royal Academy, instead, I have come clean the real
:46:13. > :46:15.War Museum, to see work of Paul Kennard, you may not know the name,
:46:16. > :46:19.but surely you know his famous version of this eye Constable. This
:46:20. > :46:24.is when cruise missiles were coming to Britain, the idea was that they
:46:25. > :46:28.would circulate around the countryside, and as the Tories said,
:46:29. > :46:33.in Parliament, don't worry about them, they will melt into the
:46:34. > :46:38.countryside! Originally I had a lot more bits, skeletons hanging out the
:46:39. > :46:42.window, but with montage, if you put into much, it reduces it. There was
:46:43. > :46:47.a colour one done as a postcard, and it was in a lot of shops. I heard a
:46:48. > :46:55.lot about Americans buying it and sending it back to Texas! In Peter's
:46:56. > :47:02.eyes, he and I do the same thing. You going to a gallery these days,
:47:03. > :47:05.you stop thinking, your art is about adoration, much more, that is
:47:06. > :47:13.becoming more and more so with the art market, the mass prices, and so
:47:14. > :47:17.I want to show that you can make art that talks to society. That is what
:47:18. > :47:21.it did in the past, that is why did, and that is what a lot of arts did
:47:22. > :47:30.in the past. People wanted to get the news from the art. You can still
:47:31. > :47:32.do that, in this situation. -- that is what Goya did. This was make the
:47:33. > :47:41.Labour Party in the early 1980s. People went to get the news,
:47:42. > :47:44.almost from the art. You can still do that
:47:45. > :47:46.in a gallery situation. So this picture was made
:47:47. > :47:49.for the Labour Party in the early 1980s and they were
:47:50. > :47:51.unilateral at the time. And they wanted to use a very strong
:47:52. > :47:54.image to show that we could actually get rid of nuclear weapons
:47:55. > :47:57.and that's what I came up with. You can see the Labour Party
:47:58. > :48:00.logo there and then, hopefully, this has become relevant
:48:01. > :48:02.again as we are talking about the possibility of getting
:48:03. > :48:04.rid of nuclear weapons. Has Labour asked
:48:05. > :48:06.you for a new poster? But the current
:48:07. > :48:09.Labour Leader is fan. He does paint.
:48:10. > :48:11.I don't know if you knew. No, I didn't.
:48:12. > :48:13.He does do some painting himself. He is very into culture.
:48:14. > :48:15.Is he any good? And Peter's been involved in picking
:48:16. > :48:19.new images for the placards that are to be used at this weekend's
:48:20. > :48:22.anti-Trident march which CND reckon is going to be the biggest
:48:23. > :48:32.since the '80s. STUDIO: Joining us now, Labour MP,
:48:33. > :48:36.former defence minister, John speller. Welcome to the programme.
:48:37. > :48:39.Saturday is to be the national campaign day to support remaining in
:48:40. > :48:47.the European Union, for Labour, Jeremy Corbyn... Is going to speak
:48:48. > :48:50.at a CN deal... Does that suggest to you that abolishing nuclear weapons
:48:51. > :48:56.is more important to him than staying in the EU? -- John Spellar.
:48:57. > :49:03.The rally, where he is appearing, with the leaders of the SNP, Plaid
:49:04. > :49:09.Cymru, and the greens, it is not necessarily the best use of time. --
:49:10. > :49:13.CND. Apart from the EU, I would say that the issue of weekend deaths in
:49:14. > :49:19.hospitals, where David Cameron this week put out some quite spurious
:49:20. > :49:22.figures, that should be the main focus of political campaigning this
:49:23. > :49:26.weekend, rather than trying to overturn a policy which was agreed
:49:27. > :49:32.after a very full discussion in the Labour Party, we ran it in the
:49:33. > :49:36.manifesto in the general election. Your party is now led by a man who
:49:37. > :49:41.has been a unilateral nuclear disarmament board his entire life,
:49:42. > :49:44.entirely convinced on this issue, it believes that increasing numbers of
:49:45. > :49:49.people who have joined the Labour Party take that position as well. It
:49:50. > :49:52.is only natural, surely, that he would want to campaign to make that
:49:53. > :49:57.party policy. Actually, we do not just select one person and adopt all
:49:58. > :50:02.of his views, otherwise we would abolish party conference! Is not
:50:03. > :50:05.asking for that to happen, he believes there is a growing tide of
:50:06. > :50:09.unilateral and nuclear disarmament in his own party, that he agrees
:50:10. > :50:13.with and would like to encourage because he thinks he can make it
:50:14. > :50:17.policy. I don't know if you saw the conference of the GMB, Major
:50:18. > :50:23.affiliated union of the Labour Party, that took place this week,
:50:24. > :50:26.there was a very strong feeling from the organised working class,
:50:27. > :50:31.represented by that union, that very much we should stick with current
:50:32. > :50:34.policy. Rankin, that David Cameron should get on with it and call a
:50:35. > :50:38.vote in the House of Commons and we should be ordering the new
:50:39. > :50:42.submarines. That was party policy hammered out. -- frankly, that David
:50:43. > :50:46.Cameron should get on with it. I remember being involved in many of
:50:47. > :50:50.them. Perhaps now you are a different party. On the programme
:50:51. > :50:54.yesterday we looked at recent polling, on the attitudes of the
:50:55. > :50:59.members of your party, a huge influx, only 40% of your members now
:51:00. > :51:05.were members when Ed Miliband became leader in 2010. How money people?
:51:06. > :51:11.This may well be a different and new party. Voters have not changed. New
:51:12. > :51:15.party, new policy. Voters have not changed, the manifesto we presented
:51:16. > :51:19.less than one year ago, has not changed. Labour members of
:51:20. > :51:27.Parliament, Tom Watson, the deputy leader, he pointed it out, very
:51:28. > :51:32.strongly, yesterday. They voted on that, and we will be, many of us
:51:33. > :51:35.will be voting for that. When David Cameron finally puts it before the
:51:36. > :51:39.House of Commons. Indeed, if anything, since the policy was drawn
:51:40. > :51:45.up, international situation has become more precarious. The invasion
:51:46. > :51:49.of Crimea, and also, Russia revamping its nuclear arsenal. Emily
:51:50. > :51:53.Formby says that she would like a proper debate inside the party, when
:51:54. > :51:58.she says that, on the future of Trident, you have already made up
:51:59. > :52:02.your mind? The party has made up its mind, we had a debate, we have a
:52:03. > :52:08.full and extensive debate will stop -- Emily Thornberry. That was
:52:09. > :52:13.reaffirmed, by the way, at last year 's party conference, after the
:52:14. > :52:18.election of Jeremy Corbyn. That Reay reaffirmed that we support the
:52:19. > :52:23.maintenance of the continuous at sea deterrence. -- that reaffirmed. Why
:52:24. > :52:31.is your Shadow Defence Secretary having a proper debate? -- full and
:52:32. > :52:37.extensive debate. We had a full debate, perhaps she did not like the
:52:38. > :52:40.outcome. The outcome... Firstly, it is the perfectly logical outcome in
:52:41. > :52:45.defence terms, and also it is the outcome supported by the British
:52:46. > :52:49.people, again, as you talk about opinion, as every opinion poll
:52:50. > :52:56.shows, really. You said you would resign the Labour whip, if the party
:52:57. > :53:01.came out against... I did not. What is your position? My position is as
:53:02. > :53:05.it has been at times in your clips beginning earlier, you pointed out
:53:06. > :53:11.there were times that Labour was a unilateralist party, and indeed that
:53:12. > :53:15.did not do us much good with the electorate, with the era where the
:53:16. > :53:21.public decisively rejected us. I fought my corner then, and indeed,
:53:22. > :53:25.we turned around party policy, and not coincidentally, the public then
:53:26. > :53:29.decided that if we were trusted with the security of the country, then
:53:30. > :53:34.they would trust us. If they don't think that, then they want. Why
:53:35. > :53:40.should I want to walk away from a party, that I had been a member of
:53:41. > :53:47.for the best part of 50 years? Because you don't agree with
:53:48. > :53:51.them...? Policies change, at one stage, one side is on top, another
:53:52. > :54:04.stage, another side is on top. Now the other side is on top and you are
:54:05. > :54:08.kvetching. I fought my corner in the party, and opinion in the party
:54:09. > :54:12.turned around, and we won. The electorate followed that. I'm not
:54:13. > :54:17.one of these people, on the fringe, Socialist workers party, now I am to
:54:18. > :54:21.the right of politics... As you know, I have had the same position
:54:22. > :54:26.all the way through. Yes, and here you are, belonging to a party which
:54:27. > :54:31.became Blairite, and Blairism has gone now, the Blairite party in this
:54:32. > :54:34.country now is the Tory party, and you and the rest of the people in
:54:35. > :54:39.the Labour Party have been left behind by that. Now you are in a
:54:40. > :54:43.party led by somebody like Jeremy Corbyn, you are still Blairite, you
:54:44. > :54:47.have a choice, sit there and moan, or go and join the Tories. That is
:54:48. > :54:56.where you plainly belong! Aditya Lily... Particularly... You sound
:54:57. > :55:03.like a member of Momentum. You are using that as if it is an insult.
:55:04. > :55:12.Socialist workers, and the Alliance for work as liberty and all of that.
:55:13. > :55:18.We have been on that route, interestingly enough, the bite back
:55:19. > :55:23.publication has just republished Jon Golding's book, which outlines those
:55:24. > :55:29.battles. Winning those battles... The point, at some point, you have
:55:30. > :55:31.got to stop talking about the membership of the party with this
:55:32. > :55:35.scorn and disdain, whatever you think of them, whatever you, the
:55:36. > :55:42.Parliamentary party think of them, they are your party, you cannot come
:55:43. > :55:47.on television and talk about them as if they are lunatics! You are not
:55:48. > :55:52.understanding what the party is. I do very much so, I remember the
:55:53. > :55:57.Labour Party -- are you a member of the Labour Party? Yes, for three
:55:58. > :56:04.months. I was a member when I was 15, and I left because of people
:56:05. > :56:09.like you. -- was a member when I was 15 and I left because of people like
:56:10. > :56:14.you. I have been a member for decades and decades. You could not
:56:15. > :56:21.even join the party when Ed Miliband was the leader. In the Cold War,
:56:22. > :56:26.which is now so long ago... Starting again... We were on the same side,
:56:27. > :56:29.why do you continue to support their weapon designed for the Cold War and
:56:30. > :56:33.design for a superpower when the Cold War is over and we are not a
:56:34. > :56:37.superpower, there is a busy should between Trident and no Trident, a
:56:38. > :56:41.modest nuclear deterrent, much smaller, it is the one that you
:56:42. > :56:45.constantly seek to obscure the assistance of. In coalition, the Lib
:56:46. > :56:49.Dems tried to come up with alternatives, they had the Trident
:56:50. > :56:54.alternative review, and the most cost effective way, continuous at
:56:55. > :56:55.sea deterrence for Trident. John Spellar, thank you very much
:56:56. > :57:01.rejoining us. -- thank you very much for joining
:57:02. > :57:06.us. Well, you haven't got
:57:07. > :57:09.to wait until 23rd June. Here's Ellie with a round up
:57:10. > :57:17.of the rest of the week's political Three strikes and you are a junior
:57:18. > :57:22.doctor, there will be more industrial action and they announced
:57:23. > :57:25.they are seeking a judicial view of government plans to impose new
:57:26. > :57:29.contract on them. The 11th hour agreement was found in the fiscal
:57:30. > :57:32.framework of the Scotland Bill, the next Scottish Government will have
:57:33. > :57:37.full control of income tax. The number of people sleeping rough in
:57:38. > :57:41.England has increased 30% in a year, rising to over 3500 people. The
:57:42. > :57:46.Prime Minister address Jeremy Corbyn's appearance at PMQs,
:57:47. > :57:50.advising him to: put on a proper suit, do up your tie, sing the
:57:51. > :57:54.national anthem. He later told reporters that David Cameron was
:57:55. > :58:00.jealous of his jacket(!) from one side Tory icon to Donald Trump, in
:58:01. > :58:04.the race of the Republican presidential nomination. Winning a
:58:05. > :58:08.third in a row. It is a lot of fun up here, I have got to tell you.
:58:09. > :58:12.George Bush senior possibly was, but he was not giving anything away.
:58:13. > :58:18.There are, I did not say EU referendum once. Wait a minute...!
:58:19. > :58:25.Important debate in Texas last night, I stayed up to watch it. The
:58:26. > :58:27.answer to the quiz, now, the question was, which of these
:58:28. > :58:35.political parties has none of our guests been a member of? The answer
:58:36. > :58:40.is... Women's equality party. I have not been a member of the women's
:58:41. > :58:45.equality party. There was only 3000 of us, though socialists, we did not
:58:46. > :58:49.call ourselves a party, as crazy as we were! No more time to walk down
:58:50. > :58:54.memory lane. 1pm news beginning on BBC One, I will be back on BBC One,
:58:55. > :58:58.on Sunday, with Sunday politics, Michael Howard will be joining us,
:58:59. > :58:59.he is now campaigning to leave Europe. Former Conservative Party
:59:00. > :59:02.head. I hope MUSIC: Close To You
:59:03. > :59:05.by the Carpenters