:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.Was political pressure put on the leader of one of Britain's
:00:44. > :00:46.biggest business groups to resign after he spoke in favour
:00:47. > :00:51.You might not have heard of him before today,
:00:52. > :00:55.but the former head of the British Chambers
:00:56. > :00:57.of Commerce John Longworth is at the centre of a big political
:00:58. > :01:01.David Cameron is in Brussels meeting European leaders as they grapple
:01:02. > :01:07.Can Turkey solve the EU's biggest problem, and what do they want
:01:08. > :01:13.We'll be looking at Government plans to extend Sunday trading and hearing
:01:14. > :01:20.And should satirical TV shows be allowed to use clips like this
:01:21. > :01:32.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:33. > :01:40.of the programme today two MPs who are beyond satire.
:01:41. > :01:44.By which I mean of course we'd never think of poking fun at them.
:01:45. > :01:46.It's Labour's Mary Creagh and Ukip's Douglas Carswell; welcome
:01:47. > :01:51.Let's begin today by talking about the resignation of the head
:01:52. > :01:54.of the British Chambers of Commerce, he's called John Longworth.
:01:55. > :01:57.He told reporters at the BCC's annual conference last week
:01:58. > :02:01.that the UK could have a "brighter" future outside the European Union.
:02:02. > :02:04.He was expressing a personal view because the business organisation's
:02:05. > :02:08.official position is to remain neutral ahead
:02:09. > :02:15.The BCC said Mr Longworth had accepted his support for leaving
:02:16. > :02:18.the EU was "likely to create confusion" and he therefore had
:02:19. > :02:23.But leave campaigners have claimed he came under political
:02:24. > :02:28.Conservative MP David Davis said he is a Brexit martyr.
:02:29. > :02:31.This morning's Daily Mail front page refers to 'an honest man knifed
:02:32. > :02:36.Downing Street says no pressure was put on the BCC to
:02:37. > :02:42.Here's the Mayor of London and Leave campaigner Boris Johnson speaking
:02:43. > :02:47.It is very sad that somebody like John Longworth,
:02:48. > :02:49.who shares my view, who has great experience of British business
:02:50. > :02:54.and industry, should have paid a heavy price for sharing
:02:55. > :03:00.You said the agents of project fear had got him out by bullying,
:03:01. > :03:09.No, he has been asked to step down for expressing what I think
:03:10. > :03:17.is a passionate, optimistic view of this country's chances.
:03:18. > :03:22.We're joined now from Bristol by Phil Smith, managing director
:03:23. > :03:25.of Business West which is the chamber of commerce for the West
:03:26. > :03:36.Mr Smith, are you pleased to see the back of John Longworth? He had to
:03:37. > :03:40.go. When you pay someone to represent you and they don't do it,
:03:41. > :03:43.there's only one conclusion, I'm afraid. Do you think there was
:03:44. > :03:48.political pressure to remove him? Absolutely not. The members were
:03:49. > :03:54.unhappy unth up and down the country. The BCC board recognised
:03:55. > :03:58.that. There was no pressure for an internal decision. You don't think
:03:59. > :04:03.project fear did fall for him in that sense? Absolutely not. Would it
:04:04. > :04:09.be fair to describe the BCC as a pro-EU body? They've made it very
:04:10. > :04:13.clear our stance is to be neutral on the EU and leaving, so I think if
:04:14. > :04:22.John had come out on Thursday and said to vote to stay, I think we'd
:04:23. > :04:28.have had the same response. So no, I think no pressure from Number Ten
:04:29. > :04:31.and it was a neutral stance. So you said even if he expressed the
:04:32. > :04:35.opposite view, you would have had to go anyway so you don't think any
:04:36. > :04:39.senior figure in the BCC to your knowledge should express an opinion
:04:40. > :04:42.about the EU at all? As a collective, as a membership body, we
:04:43. > :04:46.have take an neutral stance. You pay somebody to do that. I represent my
:04:47. > :04:50.members here in the West Country, I represent their views. John wasn't
:04:51. > :04:54.representing his member's views, I'm afraid. What about renegotiation. Do
:04:55. > :04:59.you think then that the BCC should express a view about whether that
:05:00. > :05:03.was a good idea in the first place? I'm sure the BCC's always wanted,
:05:04. > :05:06.well when they have polled members in the past, the majority would
:05:07. > :05:11.prefer to stay and more would prefer to stay if we got a good deal out of
:05:12. > :05:15.Europe. For this purpose for now, we have take an neutral stance. John
:05:16. > :05:19.waivered from it on Thursday, it's brave of him, he sacrificed his
:05:20. > :05:27.career for his own personal views and good for him but not the BCC
:05:28. > :05:32.view. I'm afraid. Kim Conchie, CEO has said it's important for
:05:33. > :05:36.Cornwall, should he have stayed silent? We are separate bodies,
:05:37. > :05:41.federal organisations, if Kim wants to say that and they get lots of
:05:42. > :05:46.money in Cornwall from Europe so you can see why he said it, each member
:05:47. > :05:50.takes their view, but from our point of view, it was to stay neutral and
:05:51. > :05:55.say nothing, John waiver and I can see why he's paid the price. Thank
:05:56. > :05:58.you very much. Douglas Carswell, you tweeted Downing Street got their
:05:59. > :06:02.man. What evidence have you got that there was direct pressure? There
:06:03. > :06:06.does seem to have been some suggestion, not least in the
:06:07. > :06:10.newspapers, that there seems to have been some pressure. There's been
:06:11. > :06:14.some liaison between the BCC and Downing Street. But look, let's not
:06:15. > :06:21.lose sight of the real issue which is what John long worth, a man who
:06:22. > :06:24.spent years working with small and medium-sized businesses actually has
:06:25. > :06:29.said. He clearly feels very strongly that EU membership is bad for small
:06:30. > :06:34.and medium businesses. We know there are big corporate interest who is
:06:35. > :06:37.rather like Brussels, they can afford to hire lobbyists. But he
:06:38. > :06:42.spent his career working with small and medium businesses who believes
:06:43. > :06:46.we'd be better off out. Does it it main the Remain argument weak. He
:06:47. > :06:51.crossed the line didn't he though in terms of speaking out? The
:06:52. > :06:54.organisations decided they should remain neutral, rightly or wrongly,
:06:55. > :06:57.rather than talking about the substance of what he said. Do you
:06:58. > :07:02.believe he crossed the line and therefore he had to go? Some have
:07:03. > :07:05.expressed contrary views. At a regional level. This was the
:07:06. > :07:10.national... I'm sure they would distinguish, but look at the broad
:07:11. > :07:14.point of view of the Campaign. Rather than engaging in the
:07:15. > :07:18.substance of the argument, they are having to resort to the removal
:07:19. > :07:24.tactics. Let's say he'd come out in fave of staying in, would you expect
:07:25. > :07:28.him to resign or stay? Given what we have seen, if he'd have argued down
:07:29. > :07:32.a pro-Downing Street line, he wouldn't have been forced out. But
:07:33. > :07:35.you don't have the evidence for him being forced out. Number
:07:36. > :07:37.you don't have the evidence for him they didn't force him out. We have
:07:38. > :07:43.heard from Phil Smith who says there is no evidence? 24 hours ago I hear
:07:44. > :07:48.Downing Street was not ruling out the idea that there had been liaison
:07:49. > :07:53.between officials and the BCC. Mary, did he cross the line and have to
:07:54. > :07:56.go? He spent time working with ASDA and Tesco and this was his personal
:07:57. > :07:59.view. Reading the accounts of what happened last week, it was clear
:08:00. > :08:02.from people in the room that there was unhappiness from the members of
:08:03. > :08:08.the British Chamber of Commerce. This is a membership organisation
:08:09. > :08:12.and I know from my time working at Koranfield School of management with
:08:13. > :08:19.MBAs and entrepreneurs, the membership of the BCC are two to one
:08:20. > :08:26.in fave of staying as part of the European Union -- Cranfield School.
:08:27. > :08:28.He is a paid representative of that organisation, that organisation has
:08:29. > :08:31.a very particular stance which is, we are going to remain neutral.
:08:32. > :08:37.There's Cornwall and the north-east that want to stay and there's
:08:38. > :08:40.probably other parts of regions that want to leave, but in order to
:08:41. > :08:45.manage that, they have decided on this neutral stance and he's broken
:08:46. > :08:49.it. So you agree he had to go. Do you think Number Ten put pressure on
:08:50. > :08:54.him? I have no idea but it's clear this is a decision for the British
:08:55. > :08:58.Chamber of Commerce board not Number Ten and the board have sacked him?
:08:59. > :09:03.The British Chamber of Commerce set out a series of criteria that they
:09:04. > :09:06.wanted to see in a reformed Europe. David Cameron's deal's demonstrably
:09:07. > :09:09.failed to achieve that and it's right and proper therefore that the
:09:10. > :09:12.people in the Chamber of Commerce express the disappointment that his
:09:13. > :09:17.new deal is not reforming Europe at all. The membership of the members
:09:18. > :09:21.of the Chamber of Commerce are two to one in favour of staying in the
:09:22. > :09:24.European Union. They know it's better for their businesses,
:09:25. > :09:28.employees, staff and regulatory frameworks. They know that leaving
:09:29. > :09:34.would mean we'd have to unpick Torith our trade deals and lose a
:09:35. > :09:38.huge amount of foreign investment. I suppose there is a view about,
:09:39. > :09:43.whether other influential people feel less likely to talk and speak
:09:44. > :09:49.out on what is an extremely important issue. Should people be
:09:50. > :09:53.new untilled that sense? If somebody works for an organisation, they
:09:54. > :09:59.should not stray from that. That is clear from all organisations. A
:10:00. > :10:01.Number Ten spokesperson has been briefing journalists and hasn't
:10:02. > :10:05.denied there was contact. No pressure but there was contact. You
:10:06. > :10:10.would expect that? It's a euphemism and I'm sure there would say there
:10:11. > :10:15.was no pressure on the French President to bully us. Downing
:10:16. > :10:20.Street and the Remain campaign are weak. They are backing out of the
:10:21. > :10:23.idea of TV debate with the BBC. Downing Street feels it can't get
:10:24. > :10:28.involved in the substance so they are having to play the man. The idea
:10:29. > :10:32.of Francois Hollande or the Italian Finance Minister all warning about
:10:33. > :10:36.the domino effect, if the UK leaves the European Union, about the very
:10:37. > :10:40.dangerous position that we are in if we do leave, not just for our
:10:41. > :10:46.country but for the whole continent at a time of great security, unease,
:10:47. > :10:49.at a tame when Russia is on manoeuvres in Ukraine and Russia,
:10:50. > :10:52.these are issues people need to hear about. The idea that you can bully
:10:53. > :10:53.Francois Hollande into anything is for the birds.
:10:54. > :10:55.Thank you. We've learnt in the last few days
:10:56. > :11:01.that Labour has allowed a leading left winger to rejoin the party,
:11:02. > :11:03.to the consternation of some senior Who now proudly owns a shiny
:11:04. > :11:10.new Labour party membership card? Is it a) Former Bradford
:11:11. > :11:14.MP George Galloway. b) Mark Serwotka, General Secretary
:11:15. > :11:16.of the Public and Commercial c) Former militant councillor Derek
:11:17. > :11:21.Hatton. or d) The filmmaker and founder
:11:22. > :11:24.of Left Unity, Ken Loach. David Cameron is in Brussels today
:11:25. > :11:28.for a meeting aimed at tackling The UK is offering to send
:11:29. > :11:33.a Royal Navy ship and helicopter to help tackle people smugglers,
:11:34. > :11:37.but the big issue is whether the EU can cut a deal with Turkey that
:11:38. > :11:40.will help curb a second wave of migrants from the
:11:41. > :11:45.war-torn Middle East. Some 1.2 million people claimed
:11:46. > :11:48.asylum in Europe last year. But more and more people
:11:49. > :11:52.are attempting to make the journey Another 135,000 have arrived
:11:53. > :11:59.on Europe's shores so far this year, more than six times the number
:12:00. > :12:03.who arrived in the same EU leaders are keen to reach a deal
:12:04. > :12:10.with Turkey, because that's the departure point for many
:12:11. > :12:14.migrants crossing into Europe. The EU will press Turkey to take
:12:15. > :12:18.back migrants who do not qualify In return, the EU could give Turkey
:12:19. > :12:24.3 billion euros and resettle some The EU is also likely
:12:25. > :12:32.to declare the route north Some 13,000 people are currently
:12:33. > :12:37.stranded at Greece's border with Macedonia, with
:12:38. > :12:40.the authorities preventing them Meanwhile, the UK is sending a navy
:12:41. > :12:46.ship to help gather intelligence on people smugglers
:12:47. > :12:49.operating in the Aegean. It will join other NATO countries
:12:50. > :12:52.already policing this part However, this NATO mission is also
:12:53. > :12:58.effectively a coastguard force, as ships will likely end up rescuing
:12:59. > :13:03.migrants at risk of drowning. Well, David Cameron has arrived
:13:04. > :13:06.at the summit in Brussels, let's hear what he had to say
:13:07. > :13:16.to reporters waiting outside. It's important that we help the
:13:17. > :13:19.continent of Europe to secure its external border. That's in our
:13:20. > :13:22.interests and that's why we are sending British ships to do just
:13:23. > :13:26.that. This does underline the special status that we have in this
:13:27. > :13:31.organisation because, of course, we are not in the Schengen no-border
:13:32. > :13:34.zone, we keep our own strong borders, so migrants that come to
:13:35. > :13:35.Europe aren't able to come to the UK and that's important that everyone
:13:36. > :13:36.understands that. Our correspondent Damian
:13:37. > :13:48.Grammaticus is in Brussels. Is this monitoring exercise that the
:13:49. > :13:53.UK is now taking part in meaningful? I think it's one of the important
:13:54. > :14:01.things that the EU is putting in place, to try and deal with this
:14:02. > :14:05.crisis. What their aim is, is to try to reduce the in-flow of people from
:14:06. > :14:09.Turkey into Greece. That's the first thing they want to achieve. This is
:14:10. > :14:15.one of the ways that they are trying to do that, using the NATO ships,
:14:16. > :14:18.now the British contribution we know is going to be taking part as well
:14:19. > :14:23.which will also involve, not just this one ship but also a couple of
:14:24. > :14:27.coastguard cutters as well. The idea there will be, as you were hearing,
:14:28. > :14:31.to pass information on to the Turks to try to get the Turkish coastguard
:14:32. > :14:35.and police to try to intercept people and boats before they make it
:14:36. > :14:39.into Greek waters. Once they do make it into Greek waters, most people
:14:40. > :14:43.are in Europe and have to be dealt with and processed by the European
:14:44. > :14:47.side. So the hope is that this can achieve something. But crucially, it
:14:48. > :14:51.will all depend, to a large extent on cooperation from Turkey. That's
:14:52. > :14:55.why what we are seeing here now is the first meeting today which is the
:14:56. > :15:00.Europeans and Turkey sitting around trying to cajole Turkey to do more.
:15:01. > :15:05.Right, but is it going to really actively do anything to stop the
:15:06. > :15:08.people-smuggling trade? I think that's a very difficult question to
:15:09. > :15:14.answer at this stage. It's an open question. The hope is, I think
:15:15. > :15:17.amongst European countries, that by having these forces there, and it
:15:18. > :15:21.won't just be the British, there are a number of other countries
:15:22. > :15:25.providing ships too, they can provide information, they can
:15:26. > :15:30.monitor the coastlines, they can try and spot where smugglers are
:15:31. > :15:34.preparing boats, where people are gathering to set out on their
:15:35. > :15:37.journey across the sea to Greece and then by passing that information to
:15:38. > :15:41.Turkey urge the Turks to do something. I think the second thing
:15:42. > :15:45.it would do as well is give European countries some leverage with Turkey
:15:46. > :15:49.because if they are able to say, look, we identified all of these
:15:50. > :15:52.occasions when people were getting on boats, you didn't do anything
:15:53. > :15:55.about it, it gives them more opportunity to put pressure on
:15:56. > :16:00.Turkey. That's one thing. The other things they are going to be talking
:16:01. > :16:04.about is more money for Turkey, more efforts or ideas about trying to
:16:05. > :16:09.offer a plan to take some refugees and resettle them in Europe anyway,
:16:10. > :16:13.if Turkey takes part in this plan, and then sending people back, some
:16:14. > :16:15.who do make it across, this is also being discussed but who may not
:16:16. > :16:18.qualify for protection in Europe. I'm joined by Fadi Hakura
:16:19. > :16:20.an associate fellowat Chatham House, an independent think tank focusing
:16:21. > :16:31.on international affairs. Welcome. Another crisis summit, any
:16:32. > :16:36.chance of a breakthrough this time? The likelihood is Turkey will accept
:16:37. > :16:42.to take non-Syrian refugees back into Turkey. What would they like in
:16:43. > :16:47.return? More money, a strong men from the EU to grant visa free
:16:48. > :16:52.access to Turks travelling to mainland Europe, as well as a clear
:16:53. > :16:56.strategy to resettle some of the refugees in Europe. Do you think
:16:57. > :17:02.that is a price worth paying, having visa free travel in order for them
:17:03. > :17:07.to take back either failed asylum seekers or non-Syrian migrants? The
:17:08. > :17:11.Government position is a welcome change from the position 18 months
:17:12. > :17:16.ago when ministers said they did not want any rescue missions because
:17:17. > :17:19.they were acting as a so-called pull factor. I welcome that the Prime
:17:20. > :17:25.Minister is working alongside our EU partners and in Nato. These are free
:17:26. > :17:33.travel does not apply within the UK, because we are not part of the
:17:34. > :17:38.Schengen no border zone. I think it is the right thing to do. This has
:17:39. > :17:43.been a five-year conflict, a quarter of a million people have died, it
:17:44. > :17:50.has been a war without law, without end, and our response as a rich
:17:51. > :17:57.group of countries has been incredibly poor, we have taken just
:17:58. > :18:03.1000 refugees. Should Britain have been part of some sort of quota
:18:04. > :18:08.system? Given that we have a quarter of a million people now seeking
:18:09. > :18:13.asylum, over a million people, we should have played our part as part
:18:14. > :18:16.of the EU, but I would also like to see us move much faster to offer
:18:17. > :18:21.safe and legal routes to people in those camps so that they are not
:18:22. > :18:28.forced to make this difficult journey. Do you think it is a price
:18:29. > :18:33.worth paying? Turkey is crucial in terms of trying to make some headway
:18:34. > :18:37.with this crisis, but we are asking them to keep its border open with
:18:38. > :18:42.Syria, close the border with Greece, take-back failed asylum seekers,
:18:43. > :18:47.they have a right to demand a lot in return. Well done, Prime Minister,
:18:48. > :18:52.for sending the Navy, but it is Nato on whom we can depend who have taken
:18:53. > :19:07.the initiative. The EU has made the problem far worse, and if we have
:19:08. > :19:13.what is already on the table, a proposal for a European institution
:19:14. > :19:16.to allocate quotas on a pan-European level, we will lose the ability as a
:19:17. > :19:23.country to decide how many refugees come here. If we vote to remain in
:19:24. > :19:27.the EU, a Brussels institution will allocate how many refugees come
:19:28. > :19:32.here, that is on the table already. That is what people will get. The
:19:33. > :19:37.Prime Minister has rejected that approach, he is wrong. As the fifth
:19:38. > :19:43.richest country in the world, with this huge crisis on our borders, we
:19:44. > :19:46.should be voluntarily signing up to that, and we can do that as part of
:19:47. > :19:54.our opt out for justice and home affairs. Should the EU by Turkey's
:19:55. > :19:57.cooperation in the way it appears? Any deal will be difficult to
:19:58. > :20:03.implement. There will not be a durable solution unless there is a
:20:04. > :20:10.permanent settlement to the Syrian crisis. If not, the flow of refugees
:20:11. > :20:15.will continue. No amount of security, waltz, quotas or other
:20:16. > :20:21.mechanisms will prevent people wanting to come to mainland Europe.
:20:22. > :20:25.For Turkey, is this going to be a successful root for them to further
:20:26. > :20:30.their EU accession talks and negotiations? The likelihood of them
:20:31. > :20:37.joining the EU is extremely remote, not in my lifetime. The previous
:20:38. > :20:41.European minister in Turkey said that in an interview to the Daily
:20:42. > :20:47.Telegraph, Turkey will likely join Europe any time soon. -- unlikely.
:20:48. > :20:52.What sort of numbers are we talking about if there is a quid pro quo
:20:53. > :20:57.where these are free travel comes into operation? There is a fear in
:20:58. > :21:01.France and Germany and the Netherlands that millions of Turks
:21:02. > :21:06.will flow over the border into mainland Europe, so we will have
:21:07. > :21:11.another problem, given that that is more Turkish migrants coming into
:21:12. > :21:19.Europe already. But that happen? It is a possibility. Turkey is unlikely
:21:20. > :21:23.to join the EU, but unless we get a grip, large numbers of people coming
:21:24. > :21:28.through Turkey will join. We need to have a Government and Nato that is
:21:29. > :21:33.prepared to take robust action. The EU has failed, it has made the
:21:34. > :21:38.problem was. This deal is to try to control the numbers who might use
:21:39. > :21:42.Turkey as a route through. The EU has had months, it has made the
:21:43. > :21:47.problem worse. 1.2 million came across the Mediterranean last year,
:21:48. > :21:53.it is Nato that is dealing with the problem, the EU has only made it
:21:54. > :21:58.worse. The EU has failed, you say, it may be the fault of individual
:21:59. > :22:03.countries, but when you look at it, the EU has failed to deal with this
:22:04. > :22:09.problem, and if they cannot deal with a migrant crisis like this on
:22:10. > :22:13.an EU basis, what is the point? It is a refugee crisis, the global
:22:14. > :22:16.community has failed, we have allowed Vladimir Putin to be on
:22:17. > :22:22.manoeuvres, we know he has air strikes against hospitals, and
:22:23. > :22:27.schools, in the northern part of Syria, he is bombing the legitimate
:22:28. > :22:30.opposition to the president, and they are using the refugee crisis as
:22:31. > :22:39.a means of further destabilising Europe. It is why our referendum
:22:40. > :22:44.debate is coming at such a difficult political time, because the risk of
:22:45. > :22:48.the EU falling apart if Britain leads is not one that people in this
:22:49. > :22:56.country fully understand. Those pressures need to be looked at. Our
:22:57. > :23:00.party was wrong not to prevent President Assad once he had
:23:01. > :23:06.committed those chemical weapons attacks, and from that we have had a
:23:07. > :23:11.sea of human misery. This seems to be the crux moment with Turkey. But
:23:12. > :23:15.do you think it is right for the EU to do business with a country whose
:23:16. > :23:19.Government is growing, according to the media reports, more
:23:20. > :23:25.authoritarian by the day? Absolutely. Should the EU not be
:23:26. > :23:30.dealing with them's we have to, and we have to ask, why is the
:23:31. > :23:33.Government becoming more authoritarian? They are becoming
:23:34. > :23:39.destabilised with the refugee crisis on their borders. As is Lebanon and
:23:40. > :23:44.Jordan. The fault is the failure to stem the tide of misery that is
:23:45. > :23:49.Syria. I have comment does respect for Turkey, this is a failure of the
:23:50. > :23:55.European project. Should we be talking to Turkey when they are an
:23:56. > :23:59.authoritarian country? Of course, but the EU has failed to control its
:24:00. > :24:06.currency, debt crisis and borders, it is a failed project. Is Turkey
:24:07. > :24:11.being destabilised? Yes, they contributed to the refugee crisis by
:24:12. > :24:16.allowing a lot of foreign fighters or at least a flow of foreign
:24:17. > :24:22.fighters into Syria. There is already 2.5 million plus refugees in
:24:23. > :24:25.Turkey, Turkey is in permanent warfare with the Kurdish
:24:26. > :24:30.nationalists in the south-east, as well as in northern Syria will stop
:24:31. > :24:31.they have to do a 180 degrees change in its policy to bring more
:24:32. > :24:34.stability into Syria. At Europe's biggest shopping centre,
:24:35. > :24:39.a special church service, a reminder that the shops may be
:24:40. > :24:42.open legally for the first time on a Sunday, but it
:24:43. > :25:01.is still the sabbath. This Centre in Gateshead, owned by
:25:02. > :25:05.the Church Commissioners. It has now bowed to the inevitable. An
:25:06. > :25:07.estimated 90,000 took advantage of the opening.
:25:08. > :25:09.Brilliant, I work full-time, so it is ideal.
:25:10. > :25:11.Sunday is fine for me, it is sometimes the only day
:25:12. > :25:18.That was the last big deregulation of Sunday trading back in 1994.
:25:19. > :25:21.And now the Government looks set to revive plans to allow local
:25:22. > :25:25.authorities to extend Sunday opening hours for supermarkets
:25:26. > :25:30.At present they're restricted to just six hours, a restriction
:25:31. > :25:34.that doesn't apply to smaller convenience stores.
:25:35. > :25:36.Well, it's expected to come to a Commons vote this Wednesday,
:25:37. > :25:40.but not all Conservative MPs are happy and it looks
:25:41. > :25:42.like the position of the Scottish National Party
:25:43. > :25:45.Well, we're joined now by David Burrowes, he's
:25:46. > :25:54.a Conservative opponent of the plan, and by the SNP's Stewart Hosie.
:25:55. > :26:00.Do you have enough Conservative MPs on your side to defeat the
:26:01. > :26:08.Government? We may have. I am concerned about our side.
:26:09. > :26:18.It was not in the manifesto, the Prime Minister in April said if you
:26:19. > :26:21.want to shop, you can, but also, if you want to retain that special
:26:22. > :26:26.characteristic, which we just about have, you can keep that. How many
:26:27. > :26:32.MPs do you have on your side? 24 signed up, a number of others, I
:26:33. > :26:39.will not reveal how many, are also lined up, as well as ministers and
:26:40. > :26:43.the like up and down the party. There are other things we should be
:26:44. > :26:47.doing to support enterprise, this has come up from a bunch of loud
:26:48. > :26:51.voices in the West End, Harrods and Knightsbridge, they wanted tourists
:26:52. > :26:56.to shop until they drop, but let's not have a domino effect that will
:26:57. > :27:03.impact on shop workers. The SNP need to ask themselves a question,
:27:04. > :27:08.whether they want to put at risk the pay packets of Scottish workers,
:27:09. > :27:12.there will be a delusion of workers' right and their pay. You have
:27:13. > :27:17.changed your position, one of your colleagues said he would support
:27:18. > :27:22.David Burrows. We will take a decision on Tuesday evening, in good
:27:23. > :27:28.time for the amendment debate on Wednesday. We were very clear all
:27:29. > :27:31.the way through, we have had Sunday trading in Scotland for 20 years, it
:27:32. > :27:36.has been beneficial by and large, but the large businesses pay a
:27:37. > :27:43.premium for Sunday working. Our specific concern, very specific, is
:27:44. > :27:48.if this is in essence becomes a UK system, does it have the potential,
:27:49. > :27:52.as many believe it would, to erode premium paid on a Sunday for workers
:27:53. > :27:58.in Scotland? Do you have a concession from the Government? No,
:27:59. > :28:03.the premium pay is not in legislation, it is done on the basis
:28:04. > :28:07.of the goodwill of businesses. Were it in statute, it would be an easier
:28:08. > :28:14.debate, but it isn't. Therein lies the difficulty. What is stopping you
:28:15. > :28:25.making up your mind? We are still getting representations from both
:28:26. > :28:30.sides. And the unions. Yes, some say it could have a detrimental effect
:28:31. > :28:35.on pay packets in Scotland. That has to be our primary concern. You need
:28:36. > :28:40.the SNP, you would defeat the Government. What are you talking
:28:41. > :28:45.about? We would defeat the Government with the SNP. It is
:28:46. > :28:48.looking at the evidence. If you look at the Edinburgh economic stake,
:28:49. > :28:56.they say it will hit the pay packet, or the evidence on the high Street.
:28:57. > :29:02.Mike small businesses, they have not said, we want you to make sure that
:29:03. > :29:06.the big stores are open for more than six hours. It is not something
:29:07. > :29:15.that is needed. If their strong feeling? I am a huge fan of David's,
:29:16. > :29:20.but I go to church on Sundays and I love shopping on Sundays, we should
:29:21. > :29:25.be able to do both. You can. But you have restrictions. Why not and are
:29:26. > :29:29.people to make these decisions for themselves? You can purchase what
:29:30. > :29:34.you want when you want online. Things will be delivered when you
:29:35. > :29:40.want. Why force shops? Because of the issue of workers and whether it
:29:41. > :29:44.is necessary. Let people decide. Workers cannot decide for
:29:45. > :29:47.themselves, they are often pressurised into working on a
:29:48. > :29:53.Sunday. We used to get double-time for a Sunday at BHS. It is great
:29:54. > :29:57.that a third of workers in Scotland get that, but that does not happen
:29:58. > :30:00.elsewhere. I have sat on the committee, I have signed your
:30:01. > :30:06.amendment, David. The current plans strike a balance, we should be
:30:07. > :30:09.keeping the rules as they are. It will mean that people can stay at
:30:10. > :30:14.home and have time with their families. Men who work on a Sunday
:30:15. > :30:19.spend less time reading with their families, doing leisure activities,
:30:20. > :30:20.and this is worrying in terms of how families and the pressure that
:30:21. > :30:30.families are under. In terms of ministers, are you
:30:31. > :30:33.expecting resignations over this? Over the weekend, there's been at
:30:34. > :30:36.least one that's saying they are wrestling with their conscience
:30:37. > :30:41.because they didn't see this coming. You heard in your clip, the previous
:30:42. > :30:46.debate, two years to debate this previously, we'll probably have two
:30:47. > :30:51.hours if we are lucky. This is it, it's not just the voice of big
:30:52. > :30:59.business. I have to say... I'm doubtful. Let me come back to
:31:00. > :31:04.Stewart Hosie, could you do a deal with David Burrowes on this? It's
:31:05. > :31:08.not about doing a deal, it's about looking at the evidence from both
:31:09. > :31:13.sides, weighing up the protections and the statute and saying, if this
:31:14. > :31:17.goes ahead on the balance of probability, will Scottish workers
:31:18. > :31:24.have pay eroded orange? Right now we have to be on the side of workers so
:31:25. > :31:29.not. So you would be doing a deal then. That won't be a good look for
:31:30. > :31:33.your supporter? It's not a good look to help the Government get through a
:31:34. > :31:40.deeply unpopular measure north of the border. You said that without
:31:41. > :31:45.moving your lips, Stewart Hosie! If a UK-wide system led to the erosion
:31:46. > :31:49.of terms and conditions and pay packets in Scotland, we couldn't
:31:50. > :31:54.support that. Because the pay... You don't know that do you though as
:31:55. > :31:56.such? No, but because the pay protection isn't in statute, it's
:31:57. > :32:00.incredibly difficult to argue the other side of the case. Yes we can
:32:01. > :32:04.get guarantees from some businesses but others have said to me, because
:32:05. > :32:07.this will be deployed perhaps on an English local authority basis,
:32:08. > :32:13.almost undeliverable full stop. Right. That makes it chaotic. Isn't
:32:14. > :32:18.that the case that it would be local authorities in the end who'd make
:32:19. > :32:22.the decision? Yes, it's a one-way valve. You can only further
:32:23. > :32:27.deregulate, you can't restrict. What is wrong with that then? Why should
:32:28. > :32:31.politicians in Westminster dictate? This is based on the Government
:32:32. > :32:36.making the case without publishing all the analysis and evidence. They
:32:37. > :32:40.are making the case that in the interests of deregulation, it makes
:32:41. > :32:43.economic sense. On a local level, you will see a competitive
:32:44. > :32:51.environment. It will be a race to the bottom. Each local council will
:32:52. > :32:55.have a big voice loud and clear. They'll want to deregulate further.
:32:56. > :33:00.Is that a glass half empty analysis? We are talking act using the law of
:33:01. > :33:03.the land to prevent people from spending their Sundays the way they
:33:04. > :33:07.want. Come on, we live in a free country, let people do what they
:33:08. > :33:10.want. You have to look at the people, a lot of them will be
:33:11. > :33:13.shopping if they want to, there are also workers. Most are having to
:33:14. > :33:19.work on Sundays already. Most do not want to work the extra hours and do
:33:20. > :33:24.not want to feel implied or explicit pressure. They're there for the
:33:25. > :33:30.families who want the choice as we have. We have a decent compromise,
:33:31. > :33:35.why unpick it now? It's unnecessary. Most Conservatives think... Is
:33:36. > :33:41.anyone listening to you? The Government are looking at
:33:42. > :33:46.compromises. One option is to zone into a tourist area, but many are
:33:47. > :33:52.concerned by the principle of it. You are saying that might be
:33:53. > :33:57.possible? It would be an idea if the big tourist magnets like West End of
:33:58. > :34:02.London. That is an interesting experiment if it worked. It might be
:34:03. > :34:08.something to look at. But I've sat on the Bill committee for this. The
:34:09. > :34:12.way the legislation is drafted, it's not West End legislation, it's
:34:13. > :34:15.national. Brandon Lewis's compromise about the red line around the high
:34:16. > :34:20.street whatever that is, not out of town, in Wakefield, I have 5,000
:34:21. > :34:24.people who work in retail, what does it mean if you are outside you don't
:34:25. > :34:28.get it and if you do you can. It's confusion and it's confusing also
:34:29. > :34:33.for the large stores. Sainsbury's, Tescos, Waitrose have all come out
:34:34. > :34:38.saying they don't want this, because they don't want in Wakefield one
:34:39. > :34:41.system and in Leeds another different system. Are you confident?
:34:42. > :34:45.No. We'll wait and see what happens today. I'm confident that an
:34:46. > :34:48.increasing number of my colleagues recognise this is unnecessary, not
:34:49. > :34:52.needed, keep things as they are. We have a good British compromise and
:34:53. > :34:56.let's carry on and get on with important issues of helping small
:34:57. > :34:58.businesses and enterprise. Thank you both very much.
:34:59. > :35:01.Now Harold Wilson won four general elections,
:35:02. > :35:04.held the UK's last referendum on EU membership, abolished capital
:35:05. > :35:06.punishment and promised to harness the famous white heat of technology.
:35:07. > :35:09.This week marks the 100th anniversary of his birth,
:35:10. > :35:12.and Mps are calling for him to be recognised as one of the 20th
:35:13. > :35:22.As you know, Her Majesty The Queen has agreed to my request that
:35:23. > :35:25.Parliament should be dissolved on Friday and the general election
:35:26. > :35:29.will be held on Thursday 10th October.
:35:30. > :35:32.This, believe it or not, is the first piece of political
:35:33. > :35:36.television I can ever remember seeing.
:35:37. > :35:39.I had no idea what was being said, I just remember the man
:35:40. > :35:49.The irony is that for a man whose memories eluded him too early
:35:50. > :35:52.in his life, his dementia may be the reason our memories and memorial
:35:53. > :35:55.of him are perhaps less than some think he deserves.
:35:56. > :35:59.Brilliant man, Prime Minister, but he had this debilitating
:36:00. > :36:06.By the time he came to talk for me in the 1979 election,
:36:07. > :36:11.he was still functioning, but his memory was slipping away,
:36:12. > :36:13.and he had already suffered from letting people know that
:36:14. > :36:20.Even when he was in the House of Lords, he was not in a condition
:36:21. > :36:29.Denis Healey lived right into his 90s, very articulate,
:36:30. > :36:33.speaking out about his career, his life, his contribution,
:36:34. > :36:42.The members' lobby of Parliament, the atrium for MPs before they enter
:36:43. > :36:46.the Commons chamber, has busts and statues of some former
:36:47. > :36:50.The iconic ones are Churchill, Lloyd George, Attlee and Thatcher,
:36:51. > :36:56.Some think Wilson ought to be another.
:36:57. > :37:01.Especially since this Friday is the centenary of his birth.
:37:02. > :37:08.Many of us have forgotten much of what Wilson did to change the way
:37:09. > :37:13.Someone said the other day, Harold Wilson as Prime Minister
:37:14. > :37:20.Both in terms of censorship, the rights of women being promoted,
:37:21. > :37:28.homosexual law reform, the end of capital punishment.
:37:29. > :37:34.That era, the 60s, that people think about the Beatles and a change
:37:35. > :37:38.in life, Harold was at the helm, he wanted Britain to
:37:39. > :37:43.He also knew that we had to do it with high skills,
:37:44. > :37:47.innovation, facing the future as a modern nation.
:37:48. > :37:52.So far, the Speaker's art fund has rejected plans for a full statue,
:37:53. > :37:55.they say he has the bust and there is a Wilson Room.
:37:56. > :38:01.But he says if the real obstacle is cash, not a problem.
:38:02. > :38:06.If the Speaker says to me, or the art fund says,
:38:07. > :38:20.And the Labour MP and historian Tristram Hunt is giving a speech
:38:21. > :38:25.about Harold Wilson this evening, and he joins us now.
:38:26. > :38:32.Lloyd George, Churchill, Atlee and Thatcher, does Wilson deserve to be
:38:33. > :38:35.ranked amongst them? Harold Wilson most certainly does. He was a great
:38:36. > :38:38.Labour Prime Minister and did the two things really that successful
:38:39. > :38:43.insurgents need to do. He put the Labour Party on the side of a
:38:44. > :38:48.patriatic British future, that great moment in 1964, The Beatles first
:38:49. > :38:51.low pressure, lady chatterly's trial, Wilson caught this
:38:52. > :38:55.progressive moment. What he also did was to reinvent socialism. Every
:38:56. > :39:00.great Labour Leader updates socialism for the modern era so this
:39:01. > :39:05.notion of a white heat of the scientific revolution. It's very
:39:06. > :39:07.modern Jo because it speaks about automation and technological change
:39:08. > :39:12.and change in society and how the Labour Party needs to put a kind of
:39:13. > :39:15.active, what we'd call today an entrepreneurial state behind this
:39:16. > :39:20.technology to deliver for citizens. He was seen as the great fixer and,
:39:21. > :39:22.for many people, he was the Prime Minister and leader of the Labour
:39:23. > :39:26.Party that sort of held the party together that that really was his
:39:27. > :39:29.driving force. Do you think that is why perhaps some of the achievements
:39:30. > :39:38.that you have outlined have been overshadowed? He is known as this
:39:39. > :39:41.fixer. Barbara Castle used to talk about his eel-like qualities and
:39:42. > :39:46.ability to keep the show on the road. But look at what came out of
:39:47. > :39:49.that. Incredible legislation in terms of female rites, incredible
:39:50. > :39:53.change to liberal reform, abolition of death penalty, change to divorce
:39:54. > :39:57.law and abortion law. Also I think from a Labour perspective what was
:39:58. > :40:03.impressive was his attack on inequality. This was a golden age of
:40:04. > :40:06.capitalism with rising living standards which Wilson oversaw and
:40:07. > :40:09.crucially, he put education as a real priority of every Labour
:40:10. > :40:14.Government, the Open University, he was hugely proud of his University
:40:15. > :40:17.of The year. Today, as well as busts, what we should also think
:40:18. > :40:23.about, we are losing some of the edge on the Internet and education
:40:24. > :40:28.and technology and social progress. I think, as well as the bustses, we
:40:29. > :40:33.should think about how we reflect on Wilson's achievements and have a
:40:34. > :40:36.push on the Internet on education. 1-1 of the achievements would be the
:40:37. > :40:41.referendum in 1975. One of my colleagues... This is archive, Jo.
:40:42. > :40:48.Yes. My colleague brought this in, the two leaflets for No and Yes at
:40:49. > :40:53.this time. In pristine condition. Interesting to go for brown to vote
:40:54. > :40:59.No. Hold them up to the camera, we don't want to be accused of being
:41:00. > :41:03.unimpartial. At the time it was Labour that was so divided and
:41:04. > :41:08.Harold Wilson's gamble paid off, if you like. Do you think there are
:41:09. > :41:12.huge similarities between Wilson's dilemma then and Cameron's now?
:41:13. > :41:17.There are extraordinary parallels. Wilson was trying to keep his party
:41:18. > :41:21.together, trying to keep Labour in power and he was trying to keep
:41:22. > :41:25.Britain in the European Economic Community and you could flip all
:41:26. > :41:28.that for David Cameron today. What's interesting though is, where you see
:41:29. > :41:33.a slight difference is, David Cameron is in a sense even more
:41:34. > :41:38.enthusiastic for Europe than Harold Wilson was. Wilson was a slightly
:41:39. > :41:41.reluctant campaigner but the difference crucially is that Wilson
:41:42. > :41:46.made the progressive case for Europe and it was a case about high skills
:41:47. > :41:49.and high wage and growth and it was I think a much more positive case
:41:50. > :41:53.rather than some of the stuff we are seeing from the Prime Minister at
:41:54. > :41:58.the moment. Crucially, he pulled it off, he won, succeeded. That was
:41:59. > :42:01.obviously the result of that, it paid off for him. David Cameron will
:42:02. > :42:08.obviously be hoping the same will happen this time around. Well, if
:42:09. > :42:12.Corbyn is running your movement, you are going to look back fondly at the
:42:13. > :42:19.previous Prime Minister apart from Tony Blair. I can see the attraction
:42:20. > :42:22.of looking back. When Wilson talk about the scientific revolution,
:42:23. > :42:29.it's a technocratic mindset. The revolution is built on that top-down
:42:30. > :42:33.set. In the digital age, trying to arrange the age of millions is
:42:34. > :42:35.doomed to failure. Fundamentally the world's changed from the old days
:42:36. > :42:41.and I think the Government wanting people to vote to remain will lose
:42:42. > :42:44.on this occasion. Rightly so. This is the interesting difference today.
:42:45. > :42:48.Douglas is right in his response to the white heat was a status response
:42:49. > :42:54.that you had to manage this and ended up with ayous. The response to
:42:55. > :43:00.the Labour Party today is to be how do you emboyer citizens to deal with
:43:01. > :43:06.technochange, so how do you create Trade Unions for the ubeer radio and
:43:07. > :43:10.employment and maternity rights in self-employment so. Embrace the
:43:11. > :43:14.modern white heat of uber, the Internet and super computers but
:43:15. > :43:28.also have a strong Social Democratic response.
:43:29. > :43:31.You two can join forces. Mary? We have the great Anglo-French
:43:32. > :43:36.collaboration around Concorde and breaking the sound barrier. How did
:43:37. > :43:41.that work? Well. Where is it now? It's been mothballed. Failure. A a
:43:42. > :43:46.good metaphor for the European Union. The Airbus collaboration
:43:47. > :43:53.creates thousands of jobs across the country and is one of the two major
:43:54. > :43:57.manufacturers of aeroplanes and so there is this state thing that you
:43:58. > :44:01.are very negative about. I think ah old would be looking at the European
:44:02. > :44:07.Union now and saying it's evolved over time and how do we deal with
:44:08. > :44:11.the networks. ATh Please can I come in. Concorde was a great triumph. It
:44:12. > :44:17.was good at transporting rock stars across the Atlantic, like the
:44:18. > :44:22.European Union, it subsidises rich bankers, they get bail outs,. .
:44:23. > :44:28.European Union, it subsidises rich European Union also delivered
:44:29. > :44:32.low-cost air travel across Europe. The Ryanair, easyJet revolution is
:44:33. > :44:35.built upon... Deregulation is possible without being in the
:44:36. > :44:39.European Union. They have cheap air travel in other places. Let me
:44:40. > :44:42.return to the question. What would Harold Wilson make of Jeremy
:44:43. > :44:46.Corbyn's Labour Party today? I think he'd look at it as a party that is
:44:47. > :44:52.not making the progress that we should be making. Walter Harrison
:44:53. > :45:02.was one of the whips in the Wilson government that kept that show on
:45:03. > :45:09.the road. Well, I think what this post-war generation of politicians
:45:10. > :45:12.had was an absolutely laser-like desire to keep power, win power and
:45:13. > :45:15.change people's minds. Do you think that's gone? We are in danger
:45:16. > :45:17.change people's minds. Do you think losing it and looking in on
:45:18. > :45:21.ourselves and we need to keep looking out. Wilson believed the
:45:22. > :45:25.Labour Party was the natural party of Government. He didn't believe the
:45:26. > :45:29.Labour Party was a protest movement protesting outside other Party
:45:30. > :45:33.Conferences. He thought it should be round the table delivering social
:45:34. > :45:39.justice for the people that came into being to represent. He'd be
:45:40. > :45:42.horrified by the tendency towards endless protests, rather than
:45:43. > :45:45.thinking about how we get into power and do what Labour Governments are
:45:46. > :45:48.about, tackling inequality, promoting education, dealing with
:45:49. > :45:50.technology, putting us at the heart of Europe.
:45:51. > :45:53.Well, it looks like we can expect another week dominated by the EU
:45:54. > :45:58.referendum, but what else will be on the agenda?
:45:59. > :46:00.Tonight sees the usual weekly meeting of the Parliamentary Labour
:46:01. > :46:05.Last week Mr Corbyn addressed his MPs for the first time this year
:46:06. > :46:12.Tuesday could mark a significant point in the campaign ahead
:46:13. > :46:15.of the referendum on EU membership, as the governor of the Bank
:46:16. > :46:18.of England Mark Carney goes in front of the Treasury Select Committee
:46:19. > :46:22.to outline the possible implications for a vote to leave.
:46:23. > :46:26.Also on Tuesday, leave campaigner and minister Priti Patel is expected
:46:27. > :46:29.to speak at an event promoting Women For Britain,
:46:30. > :46:32.a group which will try to persuade women of the case
:46:33. > :46:37.Will Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday be overshadowed
:46:38. > :46:41.by the start of the third strike by junior doctors in England?
:46:42. > :46:44.The 48-hour action is part of their campaign against
:46:45. > :46:47.the Government's decision to impose a new contract.
:46:48. > :46:50.Labour MP Dan Jarvis gives a speech on Thursday
:46:51. > :46:59.The former soldier is often spoken of as a future party leader.
:47:00. > :47:04.And Friday sees the opening rally of the Liberal Democrats' spring
:47:05. > :47:08.Joining me now from outside Parliament is the Spectator's Isabel
:47:09. > :47:15.Hardman and Joel Taylor from the Metro.
:47:16. > :47:23.The junior doctors strike, another one expected because they have not
:47:24. > :47:26.reached an agreement or a compromise, the Health Secretary
:47:27. > :47:29.said the Government will impose the new contract later this year. Is
:47:30. > :47:36.there any hope of some sort of breakthrough? No, and Jeremy Hunt is
:47:37. > :47:40.determined not to let the BMA win. Colleagues of his say that he talks
:47:41. > :47:45.about the need to stand up to the doctors so it does not encourage
:47:46. > :47:49.other groups to behave badly. What he seems to be tripping is that
:47:50. > :47:52.doctors will stop supporting the BMA now that it is continuing to take
:47:53. > :47:58.industrial action post imposition of the contract. What are we to think
:47:59. > :48:02.in terms of public support? Is it still fairly consistently in favour
:48:03. > :48:07.of junior doctors or waning? The doctors being part of the NHS gets a
:48:08. > :48:12.lot of natural support from the public, but it will be a harder
:48:13. > :48:14.test, with the 48-hour strike, thousands will see operations
:48:15. > :48:20.cancelled, it cause increasing disruption. It will be put to the
:48:21. > :48:26.test. Let's talk about the budget. We expect lots of leaks, but fuel
:48:27. > :48:33.duty rising, we have had cheaper petrol prices compare to the past,
:48:34. > :48:38.that lightly? The likeliness of anything depends on how angry Tory
:48:39. > :48:42.MPs get over the next week and a bit. George Osborne knows the party
:48:43. > :48:46.is in a fractious mood, and for him to introduce any measure that will
:48:47. > :48:51.cause a row on top of the row about the referendum is unlikely, which is
:48:52. > :48:55.why he has retreated from reforms on pension tax relief. If he wants to
:48:56. > :49:01.press ahead with tax cuts for the middle classes, for most people, you
:49:02. > :49:05.take it all the way down the tax rates, does he not have to do
:49:06. > :49:10.something if he wants to keep a lid on Government borrowing? He will
:49:11. > :49:13.have to find something. He is trying to maintain the balance with his
:49:14. > :49:19.backbenchers. They don't want any further disruption and distractions
:49:20. > :49:25.from the issues at hand. In terms of pension tax relief, that also is an
:49:26. > :49:30.issue that Conservative MPs have been angry about. Is that looking
:49:31. > :49:35.less likely? Much less likely. It's a shame, because it is the stage at
:49:36. > :49:38.which you can attempt these radical reforms, but because of the mood in
:49:39. > :49:41.the party it is unlikely he will want to do something that will end
:49:42. > :49:46.up clobbering his natural supporters in the middle classes. Boris Johnson
:49:47. > :49:57.gave his first broadcast interview since declaring for Brexit
:49:58. > :50:03.yesterday, what was your assessment? He was afflicted with the problem
:50:04. > :50:06.that a lot of Brexiters have, they failed to put an image forward about
:50:07. > :50:13.what would happen afterwards. But there were excerpts talking about
:50:14. > :50:20.Upland and great country that would appear warming to his supporters in
:50:21. > :50:24.clips. It got a pasting in the papers, I don't know whether it was
:50:25. > :50:28.because expectations had been raised or whether the style of the
:50:29. > :50:34.interview was not to everybody's taste. He was quite rambling, I was
:50:35. > :50:38.surprised at how people went at him, he has had bad reviews. He made a
:50:39. > :50:43.compelling case for wanting to leave, if not for what would happen
:50:44. > :50:46.once Britain did leave. There was a lot of pressure, because he is the
:50:47. > :50:52.charismatic figurehead of the campaign. They are relying on him to
:50:53. > :50:54.appeal to voters who are not particularly interested in
:50:55. > :50:59.politicians generally, and he did not make that mark. David Cameron
:51:00. > :51:05.has had a successful few weeks, scaring voters. What will he do now?
:51:06. > :51:11.Will he be relatively quiet, or will he continue with his campaign? I
:51:12. > :51:17.don't think it is in his nature to be quiet. He was not intending to
:51:18. > :51:22.take a leading role for the campaign, but he is stuck with it. I
:51:23. > :51:23.cannot see him shying away to frequently from sticking his neck
:51:24. > :51:31.out. Thank you very much. It is the Parliamentary Labour Party
:51:32. > :51:38.tonight, where you there last week? Yes. It was the first time Jeremy
:51:39. > :51:42.Corbyn had come to address Labour MPs, and tonight he will take
:51:43. > :51:49.questions. Last week he stated he was confident about what will happen
:51:50. > :51:52.in the local Government elections in May and the Police and Crime
:51:53. > :51:57.Commissioner elections, and I share that confidence, we have new young
:51:58. > :52:02.members, I was on the doorstep for Sadiq Khan last Thursday, very
:52:03. > :52:11.positive response in London. We should make gains in council that we
:52:12. > :52:15.need to win. Will you? We absolutely should, Calderdale has been hit by
:52:16. > :52:20.the floods, we only need to take one seat to take control of the council.
:52:21. > :52:26.Just fill it, when asked if Labour could win the election, said
:52:27. > :52:30.absolutely not. It is too early to say, this is the first electoral
:52:31. > :52:37.test for Jeremy, he is up beat, as am I. It is important we keep our
:52:38. > :52:43.eyes focused on the by-election in Sheffield Brightside, we had our new
:52:44. > :52:46.candidate selected, she will be standing, and I have no doubt she
:52:47. > :52:49.will be a brilliant MP, and what a courageous woman, to take part on so
:52:50. > :52:51.soon after first husband died. Now, because the Daily Politics
:52:52. > :52:54.is a high-brow news and current-affairs show -
:52:55. > :52:56.no laughing at the back, please - we can show
:52:57. > :52:58.you this happening. He was looking relaxed
:52:59. > :53:02.now, but then... Mayhem, as parliamentary drama
:53:03. > :53:05.turned into a circus. Let's speak to Nick
:53:06. > :53:08.Robinson, who was there. I was sitting a few feet
:53:09. > :53:13.away from Mr Murdoch, half a second before he was hit
:53:14. > :53:18.in the face with a plate Yes, that was a foam pie
:53:19. > :53:25.being thrown at media mogul Rupert Murdoch as he gave evidence
:53:26. > :53:32.to a select committee back in 2011. But while we can show it to you,
:53:33. > :53:35.footage from Parliament can't be used by any light-entertainment
:53:36. > :53:40.programme or in political satire. Last week one MP pressed the House
:53:41. > :53:43.of Commons to rethink the ban. Here's what Leader of
:53:44. > :53:47.the House Chris Grayling had to say. Could we have a statement
:53:48. > :53:50.on the uses of broadcast footage My constituent Charlie Brooker
:53:51. > :53:57.has raised with me... He has raised that he is not able
:53:58. > :54:07.to use it in his programme Screenwipe, whereas other
:54:08. > :54:09.not-dissimilar It depends whether it is satire,
:54:10. > :54:15.light entertainment or factual. Given how vague the boundaries
:54:16. > :54:18.are and these rules were dreamt up 27 years ago, would he not agree
:54:19. > :54:22.with me it is a good juncture to revisit this
:54:23. > :54:28.and have a statement? If it is a matter that concerns her,
:54:29. > :54:31.she should put a submission to the administration committee,
:54:32. > :54:34.but I think it is important we make sure the coverage of this House
:54:35. > :54:37.is used in an appropriate way. I am not in favour of it
:54:38. > :54:39.being made available Well, we're joined now
:54:40. > :54:45.by the former MP Tom Harris, who thinks it's time to let
:54:46. > :55:00.the satirists get stuck in. That recording of the pie that we
:55:01. > :55:07.showed can be used in a news report, but not in a satirical programme.
:55:08. > :55:12.Does it make sense? Makes no sense. It is a rule that is nearly 30 years
:55:13. > :55:17.old. In the late 80s when MPs were being strong bond to support for the
:55:18. > :55:21.first time the televising of Parliament, they needed reassurance
:55:22. > :55:25.that they were not going to be mercilessly mocked. In 2016, of
:55:26. > :55:28.course they are going to be mercilessly mocks, that is life, and
:55:29. > :55:34.they need to get over themselves and are now it to happen. Do we want MPs
:55:35. > :55:40.to be overly ridiculed and exposed to ridicule if they are perfectly
:55:41. > :55:45.able to do it themselves? Indeed they are. But the idea that you
:55:46. > :55:51.would offer some special protection to Parliament, of all the
:55:52. > :55:56.institutions, even the Royal family does not get that, so why would our
:55:57. > :55:59.elected representatives? They are big and ugly enough to look after
:56:00. > :56:05.themselves, to answer for themselves, they don't need this
:56:06. > :56:11.protection. If they do, I wonder if they are up to the job. One might
:56:12. > :56:14.say, you would say that now, you are not an MP anymore, I never heard
:56:15. > :56:20.this clamour from when you were an MP. That is right. The wonderful
:56:21. > :56:24.perspective one is given when you are no longer a member of the
:56:25. > :56:30.chamber! From the comfort of your studio! In the spirit of John
:56:31. > :56:33.Wilkes, who was banned from reporting what MPs said,
:56:34. > :56:39.broadcasters should ignore this. There are ridiculous rules that the
:56:40. > :56:44.House of Commons put into place, broadcasters should ignore it. I was
:56:45. > :56:48.told I could not use Periscope to broadcast, and I ignored it.
:56:49. > :56:53.Although it pains me to agree with Douglas, I do. Tom and I worked on
:56:54. > :56:57.the shadow transport team for many years. The Internet means these
:56:58. > :57:02.clips can be picked up, used, accused in whatever way. The idea
:57:03. > :57:07.that you say that you cannot show something funny to John Stuart on
:57:08. > :57:11.the capital at a show, it is Alice through the looking glass. Would
:57:12. > :57:16.Chris Grayling make a good subject for satire? I described him last
:57:17. > :57:20.week as somebody who looks like he had just been ejected from an
:57:21. > :57:28.undertaker's convention for bringing everybody else down. I am sure he is
:57:29. > :57:29.a light-hearted chap, but he needs to drag the house into the
:57:30. > :57:33.21st-century. He is to drag the house into the
:57:34. > :57:40.justify the old buffer culture. Will it change? It has do. In fairness to
:57:41. > :57:44.the Speaker, when I first became an MP I could not put online clips of
:57:45. > :57:49.me speaking in the chamber, I had to go through a bureaucratic process,
:57:50. > :57:53.the Speaker has changed it, we need to go further. Argue about to
:57:54. > :57:58.replace the Prime Minister's favourite columnist in the Daily
:57:59. > :58:06.Telegraph? Who is he? Dan Hodges. Yes, I am. You are going to become
:58:07. > :58:09.his favourite! I and the new Dan Hodges, but more clean-shaven and
:58:10. > :58:14.probably slightly more right wing. You will say goodbye to your friends
:58:15. > :58:19.in the Labour Party? No, I am sticking in there for the laughs. I
:58:20. > :58:24.will be using this platform to speak truth unto powerlessness. For the
:58:25. > :58:27.laughs, that this charming. How dare you, see me later! I will!
:58:28. > :58:30.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:31. > :58:33.The question was, which leading left-winger has re-joined the Labour
:58:34. > :58:36.A) former MP George Galloway, b) unions boss Mark Serwotka,
:58:37. > :58:39.c) former Militant councillor Derek Hatton, or d) the filmmaker
:58:40. > :58:48.Mocks what car. If he is nicer to me on question Time, it would be a good
:58:49. > :58:49.thing. The 1pm is starting
:58:50. > :58:54.over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow
:58:55. > :58:57.with all the big political stories