:00:39. > :00:40.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.Protests on the tampon tax, personal independence payments,
:00:43. > :00:44.and now a VAT increase on energy saving products -
:00:45. > :00:53.why is the Chancellor under such sustained attack from his own MPs
:00:54. > :00:58.David Cameron and other EU leaders meet in Brussels to agree
:00:59. > :01:01.on what they'll offer the Turks to take back migrants -
:01:02. > :01:07.but will the Turkish Prime Minister accept the deal?
:01:08. > :01:11.The papers aren't frightened to tell us what they think about the EU -
:01:12. > :01:16.but will you be taking any notice of what they say?
:01:17. > :01:19.And did two ten-year-olds, with a bit of help from
:01:20. > :01:49.Alistair Campbell, get the better of me on CBBC this morning?
:01:50. > :01:52.All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration,
:01:53. > :01:55.two guests who I hope won't be as difficult as those girls,
:01:56. > :01:57.Rosa Prince, author of "Comrade Corbyn",
:01:58. > :01:59.who also writes for the Telegraph, and Sun columnist, Trevor Kavanagh.
:02:00. > :02:14.So just 48 hours since George Osbone delivered it, Wednesday's budget
:02:15. > :02:17.seems to be coming under multiple attack from his own MPs.
:02:18. > :02:19.And after hostile press reaction, there are signs it might not be
:02:20. > :02:21.going down too well with the public either.
:02:22. > :02:25.you just hate politicians with prepared sound bites.
:02:26. > :02:28.A YouGov poll for The Times today shows 38% of the public think
:02:29. > :02:30.Wednesday's Budget was unfair, just 28% thought the opposite.
:02:31. > :02:33.And 51% now think the government is handling the economy badly.
:02:34. > :02:35.Conservative MPs are also queuing up to lay into the Budget.
:02:36. > :02:38.Anne-Marie Trevelyan has led the rebellion on the so-called
:02:39. > :02:39.Tampon Tax, describing it as "fundamentally wrong".
:02:40. > :02:43.A survey of Tory MPs show four out of five want to tear into the Sugar
:02:44. > :02:47.Bolton MP Chris Green speaks for many when he describes it
:02:48. > :02:53.John Redwood is kicking off about a move to increase VAT
:02:54. > :03:01.on energy saving materials like loft insulation and solar panels.
:03:02. > :03:04.And David Burrowes is amongst those ganging up against the Chancellor's
:03:05. > :03:05.plans to cut funding for Personal Independence Payments
:03:06. > :03:08.or PIPs for everywhere in the UK apart from Northern Ireland,
:03:09. > :03:10.saying his decision "takes a backward step from
:03:11. > :03:20.Last night, Education Secretary struggled to defend George Osborne's
:03:21. > :03:22.proposed changes to PIPs when quizzed about it on Question
:03:23. > :03:37.I think overall we want there to be control of the welfare budget, that
:03:38. > :03:39.is something we have made very clear in our manifesto, we also made very
:03:40. > :03:43.clear we are not going to balance the books on the back of the most
:03:44. > :03:47.vulnerable and the disabled and we still hold to that promise. First of
:03:48. > :03:50.all have too finished the consultation and the conversations
:03:51. > :03:54.we are having with MPs, but also with disability groups and others,
:03:55. > :04:00.before we even bring any legislation forward. It was interesting last
:04:01. > :04:02.night, the Education Secretary implying there were still a
:04:03. > :04:12.consultation period going on, almost that nothing really had been
:04:13. > :04:16.decided. This morning it was said she was speaking out of turn and
:04:17. > :04:22.there would be more discussion, but the government was like position had
:04:23. > :04:29.not changed. We are joined by Conservative MP Paul Scully. On the
:04:30. > :04:32.PIPs, is there a sense that the government is in retreat, and that
:04:33. > :04:38.if it isn't, there would be a Tory rebellion? My particular position
:04:39. > :04:41.with that is that we have had the consultation over the last few
:04:42. > :04:45.months, and it is important we carry on talking about this issue.
:04:46. > :04:50.I really don't think it needs to be completed with the budget. It was
:04:51. > :04:54.unfortunate in many ways it was announced with a budget, because we
:04:55. > :04:57.need to make sure that personal independence payments work for
:04:58. > :05:02.people, especially the most needy. Would you vote for them at the
:05:03. > :05:05.moment? I want to see the detail, it is all very well having a couple of
:05:06. > :05:10.lines on a budget statement, but it is all about the detail, seeing the
:05:11. > :05:16.consultation. What about the vat issues, what is your beef? Again, it
:05:17. > :05:20.is not in the budget, this is something that the European court
:05:21. > :05:26.actually overruled the UK Government, saying that we can't
:05:27. > :05:29.continue to charge 5% of tax VAT, on energy-saving products, and it is
:05:30. > :05:35.absolutely outrageous that the European court... What have we got
:05:36. > :05:40.to charge? The full 20%. So we have a situation where we can look at a
:05:41. > :05:43.sugar tax, where we are penalising people are doing something the
:05:44. > :05:50.government doesn't believe is right but we can't reward people for the
:05:51. > :05:55.thinks is a good thing. Frankly, we need to leave the EU, that is why I
:05:56. > :06:02.am campaigning to leave it on June 23. So this is grist to your mail,
:06:03. > :06:05.that the insulation tax on insulation products that we are all
:06:06. > :06:09.meant to be doing is not determined by Westminster but by Brussels? The
:06:10. > :06:13.FT, when they cover the European court decision spoke of the fact
:06:14. > :06:18.that they thought that the European Commission preferred subsidies to
:06:19. > :06:24.VAT relief, so basically a hand-out or someone else's money, rather than
:06:25. > :06:29.a cut in VAT. These should be UK decisions. Labour is going to put
:06:30. > :06:33.down an amendment to reverse on the insulation tax, will you vote for
:06:34. > :06:39.it? It is something I am seriously considering. I always vote as one
:06:40. > :06:43.member of a Conservative government, I would love to think that people in
:06:44. > :06:47.Sutton voted for me personally, I have limited currency, so when I
:06:48. > :06:50.want to make a point, I rarely want to make sure it is actually going to
:06:51. > :06:55.make that point, that we will see some changes as a result. I look at
:06:56. > :06:58.the wording, how it affects the budget, and if it doesn't affect the
:06:59. > :07:03.good things that have happened, of which there are many in the budget,
:07:04. > :07:06.then I will support the amendment. Ayew that interested in solar panels
:07:07. > :07:11.or wind turbines or is it just a good stick to beat the government?
:07:12. > :07:17.For me it is raising the point of our role as a member of the EU. I
:07:18. > :07:21.have the confidence that we can stand and look globally, outward,
:07:22. > :07:25.rather than the inward looking European Union. That is where I am
:07:26. > :07:34.looking and my focus. Is your Chancellor a bit of a busted flush
:07:35. > :07:37.on the back benches? Not at all. He has raised thousands of people out
:07:38. > :07:41.of paying 40% tax that should not have been in that category in the
:07:42. > :07:45.first place. The fact he has improved small business rates
:07:46. > :07:51.relief, as someone who ran a small business or 20 years before I was
:07:52. > :07:58.elected, that is rarely important. He fall went any major pension
:07:59. > :08:02.reform, he did not put up the fuel escalator. If you don't use that now
:08:03. > :08:07.when will you ever use it? He tried to construct a budget that didn't
:08:08. > :08:10.make any enemies on the Tory backbenches, and he is now facing
:08:11. > :08:15.multiple attacks on the Tory backbenchers from people like you.
:08:16. > :08:20.As I say, I do think I am attacking the Chancellor, I am attacking the
:08:21. > :08:24.fact we can't make our decisions within the European Union, which is
:08:25. > :08:27.part of a wider campaign in the lead up to Independence Day, shall we
:08:28. > :08:31.say, on June 23. That is really my focus. If you look at the budget,
:08:32. > :08:35.there are many good things for the Chancellor to do. His chances of
:08:36. > :08:40.being the next Tory leader are not looking so good. That is a decision
:08:41. > :08:52.to come. I really haven't even started to think about that,
:08:53. > :08:57.frankly. That is hard to believe. It is just the media who talk about
:08:58. > :09:01.that. It is always the media. If Mr Osborne is such a considered and
:09:02. > :09:06.insightful political strategist, why is he always in a mess? This is a
:09:07. > :09:09.very good question, he is a very good tactician but I am not sure
:09:10. > :09:17.about the strategy, and I think this is more than an Omni shambles. Not
:09:18. > :09:21.just things like the tap in tax and the sugar tax on all the other
:09:22. > :09:27.things that have caused so much anger, we will still overshoot on
:09:28. > :09:30.the deficit, we still have a ?1.75 trillion national debt, and there is
:09:31. > :09:34.a very good chance it could be blown completely of course between now and
:09:35. > :09:40.the general election, let alone between now and the next leadership.
:09:41. > :09:50.What is your take on the Chancellor's statement? He is a rare
:09:51. > :09:54.politician that is extremely tactful -- tactical and insightful except
:09:55. > :09:57.when it comes to his own image. I think he has done damage with the
:09:58. > :10:01.public, the public to begin with the not too, and he has done nothing in
:10:02. > :10:04.this budget or the intervening years between becoming Chancellor to
:10:05. > :10:08.really improve that and I don't understand why. Politicians are
:10:09. > :10:11.normally so vainglorious, it is all about making themselves look good.
:10:12. > :10:15.In a way it is quite proficient that he doesn't seem to be to do it for
:10:16. > :10:20.himself. You get the impression he is a Chancellor for when things are
:10:21. > :10:22.going right. But as a Chancellor when things go wrong, he doesn't
:10:23. > :10:26.have the connection with the public that will help them get through the
:10:27. > :10:30.things that are going wrong. In theory everything is going right, or
:10:31. > :10:33.would have been up until this moment because the Conservatives are in
:10:34. > :10:36.power, they can do things of that have never dreamt of being able to
:10:37. > :10:39.do. He could have taken bold decisions which would have been
:10:40. > :10:43.applauded certainly on his own side of the house and in the end would
:10:44. > :10:47.have perhaps borne fruit in time for the next election. He failed on all
:10:48. > :10:52.of these fronts, and we saw this gigantic national debt and still
:10:53. > :10:54.growing deficit. Let's begin with Tory rebellion morning, we are doing
:10:55. > :10:59.a service for you by doing a survey. We're joined now from Bristol
:11:00. > :11:01.by the Conservative MP, Johnny Mercer, who is concerned
:11:02. > :11:14.about the changes to The arm payments to disabled people
:11:15. > :11:16.that are paid to -- these are payments to disabled people. What is
:11:17. > :11:21.your complaint about what the government is planning? Andrew, you
:11:22. > :11:26.will have to come back to be because I have a different voice coming
:11:27. > :11:31.through my, not you. Really, what kind of voice is it? You sound like
:11:32. > :11:39.a lady, actually. The operation is only half finished. You can hear me,
:11:40. > :11:47.can't you? There is another voice in my BMI can't hear Andrew. Hold on,
:11:48. > :11:51.there you go. Can you hear me now? Yes, I can hear you, but also three
:11:52. > :11:58.other different voices. We can go for it. We don't want to do that, we
:11:59. > :12:02.will try to sort that out, Mr Mercer and we will come back to you on
:12:03. > :12:07.that. And go away, our finest technicians are on it as we speak.
:12:08. > :12:11.Is there a kind of mood of rebellion in the Tory backbenches at the
:12:12. > :12:16.moment, partly sparked off because you are going your separate ways on
:12:17. > :12:20.the referendum? I think there is a lot of open debate. I'm not sure if
:12:21. > :12:24.it is the same as rebellion. People are looking at if you different
:12:25. > :12:28.things. We talked about the budget, this is why I think it is wider than
:12:29. > :12:33.just a budget. We are looking at the European referendum, how the
:12:34. > :12:36.European decisions affect our budget and finances, so that is quite a
:12:37. > :12:43.fundamental issue, you are absolutely right. But I think the
:12:44. > :12:46.2015 intake and the 2010 intake before, our independent thinkers, I
:12:47. > :12:52.don't think we are party apparatchiks, but we do understand
:12:53. > :12:56.that the fundamental things, we are not serial rebel is, it doesn't get
:12:57. > :13:01.you that far if you just seen as a serial rebel. Apart from Jeremy
:13:02. > :13:06.Corbyn, obviously. People don't like parties that are perennially
:13:07. > :13:11.divided. If this is a bitter campaign, and it has been quite
:13:12. > :13:14.bitter so far, even if the Prime Minister wins the referendum, it
:13:15. > :13:19.could be quite difficult just to return to business as usual.
:13:20. > :13:25.Frankly, I think some of the things in the periphery, the personal
:13:26. > :13:31.attacks, the personal things, the driven debates, are something that
:13:32. > :13:34.we just don't need. This is a really, really important decision
:13:35. > :13:38.for the country. It will affect us for the next few decades, and that
:13:39. > :13:44.is why we have got to concentrate on the issues. Is it not surprising
:13:45. > :13:50.that, having had to retreat on making essentially cuts on tax
:13:51. > :13:55.credits for the working poor, that he would not have been a lot more
:13:56. > :13:58.careful in what was being planned for the disabled? If you have to
:13:59. > :14:04.retreat from the working poor and many want to take on the disabled,
:14:05. > :14:11.maybe you need some new advisers? I think so, and also the presentation
:14:12. > :14:15.of the 2.2 billion saved, the savings on the PIPs and the 2.2
:14:16. > :14:20.billion being spent on middle-class tax breaks is so neatly discernible
:14:21. > :14:24.that it just makes people think they are robbing the poor to pay the
:14:25. > :14:29.rich. And that just doesn't go down well. Mr Corbyn has been given an
:14:30. > :14:34.open goal. He has, that is why we have seen him have probably his best
:14:35. > :14:39.week since he has been leader. And doing not badly in the polls. Any
:14:40. > :14:43.Labour member who takes that to seriously would be wise to remember
:14:44. > :14:47.Ed Miliband. But it helps, it also means he is there, when you are
:14:48. > :14:52.doing like that in the polls, the Parliamentary party is running out
:14:53. > :14:57.of excuses to mount a coup against him. Yes, I never thought it was
:14:58. > :15:02.that likely. I agree. Just because of the scale of the victory and the
:15:03. > :15:06.two fingers up to the people who joined the party. And it goes back
:15:07. > :15:10.to the electorate who chose in the first place. It solidifies his
:15:11. > :15:13.place, he is not going anywhere. The one thing I thought interesting with
:15:14. > :15:16.his budget response was not just what he said but how he said it.
:15:17. > :15:21.Jeremy Corbyn, just because he has been around for so long, he sounded
:15:22. > :15:26.so confident, whereas usually a Leader of the Opposition as we all
:15:27. > :15:30.know, that is the toughest gig. It is not your field of expertise, it
:15:31. > :15:34.is not something you are dealing with day in, day out, but you have
:15:35. > :15:38.to respond to a budget you have not had any pre-sight of, and he spoke
:15:39. > :15:42.very well. It could have been leaked. Most people knew what was
:15:43. > :15:45.coming. I have always said it would be a mistake to underestimate Jeremy
:15:46. > :15:49.Corbyn. I watched his budget response and it was pretty good. A
:15:50. > :15:53.lot of people divided it and said it was knee jerk stuff, but I thought
:15:54. > :15:57.he handled it quite well. Let's see if lines to Bristol Arbor -- are up
:15:58. > :16:07.without interference, Mr Mercer, does it sound like me? It sounds
:16:08. > :16:09.like you. I apologise for that, but let's proceed nevertheless, what is
:16:10. > :16:16.your beef about the government's changes to the disabled?
:16:17. > :16:24.I just think we need to be really careful. We're talking about the
:16:25. > :16:27.most vulnerable group in society, the bottom 20% in terms of former
:16:28. > :16:32.ability. This is their lifeline. We've got to be ready careful. We've
:16:33. > :16:37.got to get it right and we've got to get the message right. At the same
:16:38. > :16:41.time we have to accept that this is an ongoing, fluid process. There
:16:42. > :16:49.have been judgments in the last 18 months which have PIP made claimants
:16:50. > :16:52.go up treble in that time. We need to maintain our ability and agility
:16:53. > :16:56.to work with that and make sure the money is going to the right people
:16:57. > :16:59.so that we are looking after our most vulnerable, and at the same
:17:00. > :17:04.time in courage and those who can work to get into work, which is what
:17:05. > :17:11.this Government was elected to do. I do have concerns about it. Whenever
:17:12. > :17:14.we're dealing with the most vulnerable in our communities, we
:17:15. > :17:17.need to be relief careful. We need to communicate the policy properly.
:17:18. > :17:23.It can be enormously worrying. The PIP payment is a real lifeline for a
:17:24. > :17:28.lot of people in Plymouth. How widely are your concerns shared by
:17:29. > :17:35.your bank bench colleagues? I don't know, I've just arrived from
:17:36. > :17:40.Washington last night. I will look at this and interrogate it. I'm a
:17:41. > :17:44.compassionate conservative, I don't know any other form of conservatism
:17:45. > :17:48.than that. I was concerned and I am concerned in terms of how we
:17:49. > :17:52.communicate this properly. But I'm not going to stick my head in the
:17:53. > :17:56.sand and say we walk away from a problem where there may be abuse and
:17:57. > :18:00.there may be duplication and sake we don't have time to fight that fight,
:18:01. > :18:04.because we have too, if we're going to make sure that we're giving our
:18:05. > :18:09.most vulnerable people as much money and support as we can, as much as
:18:10. > :18:12.they deserve. In dealing with the most vulnerable groups in society,
:18:13. > :18:18.you need to be very careful and we need to be very -- we need to work
:18:19. > :18:22.very hard to communicate what we're doing to those groups. There is some
:18:23. > :18:29.I've seen some evidence of that. But I've also seen that money lost in
:18:30. > :18:33.fraud to people making claims that they're not entitled to is peanuts
:18:34. > :18:35.in the overall scheme of things, and indeed the bureaucratic
:18:36. > :18:41.inefficiencies of the department in the handing out of these benefits
:18:42. > :18:46.costs more money than whatever is lost, small as it is, through fraud.
:18:47. > :18:55.I agree with that, Andrew. There has been a lot of work in this area.
:18:56. > :19:06.Fraud and abuse of it is minimal. You have to balance that with the
:19:07. > :19:10.policy, as it was first presented in the media, that was that PIP was
:19:11. > :19:16.just going to get taken away. If you are on PIP, it's going to be
:19:17. > :19:20.heartbreaking. If there are policies we can make Tibet improve care for
:19:21. > :19:24.our most vulnerable people, we have to do that. We must work hard to
:19:25. > :19:27.make sure that people understand we not adjusting most people's
:19:28. > :19:32.payments. This government is spending more and more on
:19:33. > :19:38.disability. We have to be fair. The budget this year is ?50 billion, ?34
:19:39. > :19:42.billion on defence, so we are prioritising this correctly. We have
:19:43. > :19:47.to be very careful if we're dealing with these groups. According to the
:19:48. > :19:51.ISS, several hundred thousand, it may require more than eight tweet,
:19:52. > :19:57.several hundred thousand disabled people could disability payments
:19:58. > :20:02.altogether or see them but quite substantially. That would be a cut
:20:03. > :20:12.that would matter a lot that these people, because they are not on that
:20:13. > :20:20.much money. They are generally on low levels of pay. You take away a
:20:21. > :20:25.bit of the disabled payments they get and that will cause real pain to
:20:26. > :20:28.people who I would suggest are already suffering a. You're
:20:29. > :20:32.absolutely right. I don't want to blow my own trumpet but I spend so
:20:33. > :20:37.much of my time working with these groups. I'm in it for that 20% who
:20:38. > :20:43.we have to look after, for whom life is really difficult. I work with the
:20:44. > :20:48.Special Olympics. There have been veterans charities ringing my phone
:20:49. > :20:52.since this came out, talking about this policy. We have to be careful
:20:53. > :20:57.with projections and what it actually means. If there are points
:20:58. > :21:01.coming off someone's PIP assessment, it doesn't necessarily mean they're
:21:02. > :21:05.going to lose money. This government is committed to looking after its
:21:06. > :21:09.most vulnerable. The Prime Minister has said that. I would welcome
:21:10. > :21:13.people to come to my surgeries in Plymouth or wherever that may be, if
:21:14. > :21:17.there are the most vulnerable who are being this affected by this,
:21:18. > :21:19.because that is not the intention and we need to do better as a
:21:20. > :21:26.government to get that across. Naturally we asked for the
:21:27. > :21:30.government to give us someone we could speak to about this, either
:21:31. > :21:33.from the Treasury or the Department for Work and Pensions, but none were
:21:34. > :21:35.available, not even the Downing Street cat.
:21:36. > :21:42.The question for today is all about a suggestion
:21:43. > :21:44.for a new tax that's been made by the Environment
:21:45. > :21:47.Yes, another new tax, the Conservatives are very
:21:48. > :21:49.open to the idea these days, it seems.
:21:50. > :22:03.At the end of the show, Rosa and Trevor will give us
:22:04. > :22:13.Now, a UKIP candidate for the the Welsh Assembly in May
:22:14. > :22:16.has been attacked after accusing Eastern European immigrants
:22:17. > :22:23.in Cardiff of causing a "hygiene problem" in the city.
:22:24. > :22:32.Gareth Bennett, who tops the party's list in South Wales Central,
:22:33. > :22:35.and they have a list system in Wales, is reported to have made
:22:36. > :22:36.the comments in a newspaper interview.
:22:37. > :22:38.We're joined now from Cardiff by Mr Bennett.
:22:39. > :22:48.Mr Bennett, what is it that you said? Well, Andrew, I alluded to
:22:49. > :22:53.waste problems in this area of Cardiff. These have intensified in
:22:54. > :22:57.recent years with the arrival in that area of high numbers of Eastern
:22:58. > :23:04.European immigrants, and I suggested that the problem may be connected
:23:05. > :23:15.with that development in the area. I see you are having trouble with your
:23:16. > :23:22.earpiece, like our other guests. I can hear you now. Thank you very
:23:23. > :23:29.much. You said there is a hygiene problem. What is that problem? It is
:23:30. > :23:36.caused by black bags being left outside houses. There is lots of
:23:37. > :23:41.anecdotal evidence of this. There is a piece in the South Wales Echo
:23:42. > :23:46.demonstrating that very problem. You might be able to pick out the large
:23:47. > :23:49.number of black bags that have simply been thrown in the front
:23:50. > :23:53.garden not on a rubbish collection day. These are the local residents
:23:54. > :23:58.complaining. That is clear evidence that there is such a problem. Once I
:23:59. > :24:02.get into the assembly, I will be representing the views of these
:24:03. > :24:06.residents. It seems rather strange, the suggestion that I should not be
:24:07. > :24:11.representing their very genuine concerns about this issue. What
:24:12. > :24:16.evidence do you have that there is -- if there is this rubbish problem
:24:17. > :24:21.that it is migrants who are causing it? I don't have any firm evidence
:24:22. > :24:24.to give you now but if you wish I can come back in a week's time with
:24:25. > :24:28.lots of residents from that area and we can have a talk live on air if
:24:29. > :24:33.you want about that problem. Many have connected it in talks with me
:24:34. > :24:37.to the Eastern European influx, and I'm happy to bring those people into
:24:38. > :24:42.the studio. The only problem is, Andrew, you might need a bigger
:24:43. > :24:47.studio. Indeed, you could say that in general... Would it not have been
:24:48. > :24:54.checked the evidence first, to have established the evidence before
:24:55. > :24:57.making the accusation? The accusation that Eastern European
:24:58. > :25:06.migrants are causing "A hygiene problem". Yes, that would have made
:25:07. > :25:11.sense. Why didn't you do it? Well, where is this data caps? Which
:25:12. > :25:15.council can tell me the connection? There is very clear empirical
:25:16. > :25:20.evidence, Andrew. 15 years ago we did not have this level of
:25:21. > :25:29.immigration in this area of Cardiff, and we did not have that level of
:25:30. > :25:31.hygiene problem. That is clear empirical evidence. Why'd you
:25:32. > :25:38.believe it is Eastern European migrants responsible for this?
:25:39. > :25:41.Because many people have told me so. But you haven't yet established any
:25:42. > :25:44.independent evidence. Have you spoken to any of these Eastern
:25:45. > :25:49.European migrants to see if they are responsible and see what they say?
:25:50. > :25:55.So I go up to them and say, please sir, are you responsible for the
:25:56. > :26:00.black bag problem? What do you think their response to that is going to
:26:01. > :26:09.be? Yes or no I would imagine. And a punch in the face possibly. So you
:26:10. > :26:16.are suggesting they are violent? Not in them a plea, but if you want to
:26:17. > :26:22.do that, you can come down to Cardiff and see what the responses.
:26:23. > :26:28.Do your party now want to remove you from the list? I believe that may be
:26:29. > :26:32.the case but I don't know, I haven't spoken to anyone from the party
:26:33. > :26:41.today. They've been trying to get a hold of you. Well, I was coming on
:26:42. > :26:45.this programme. I have sent them a problem with the draft of a legal
:26:46. > :26:49.letter so that if they try to deselect me without due process,
:26:50. > :26:53.they will face a legal action from me for lost earnings of ?300,000.
:26:54. > :26:57.They are aware of this. If they believe my comments have brought the
:26:58. > :27:01.party into disrepute, we could have a rerun of the candidate selection
:27:02. > :27:06.process in which I was elected as the lead candidate by the Ukip party
:27:07. > :27:10.members throughout Wales. If they want to, we could have a rerun of
:27:11. > :27:14.that. If the Ukip party members think my comments are in any
:27:15. > :27:19.distributable, they can vote appropriately. It would be
:27:20. > :27:25.interesting to see if they that rerun ballot where I would place in
:27:26. > :27:29.it. It sounds like you're going to be fighting among yourselves. Is it
:27:30. > :27:33.true that you don't like knocking on doors? You don't think politicians
:27:34. > :27:38.should not on people's doors to get people's votes? Lots of people are
:27:39. > :27:42.watching Coronation Street and they don't want to get interrupted from
:27:43. > :27:47.doing that. With canvassing, you get a lotto skewed results. I've seen a
:27:48. > :27:50.lot of candidates campaigning for the first time he gets election
:27:51. > :27:55.fever, they come in saying they're going to win the seat and they get
:27:56. > :27:57.15%. When you knock on people's doors and they are watching
:27:58. > :28:01.Coronation Street, they are liable to tell you they will vote for you,
:28:02. > :28:07.they will often tell you anything to get rid of you. There is a limited
:28:08. > :28:13.scope for canvassing. There is a base for it but not always. Are you
:28:14. > :28:17.Ukip's new loose cannon? I understand you described the Labour
:28:18. > :28:25.leader of Cardiff Council as brain dead? I believe I did say that, but
:28:26. > :28:29.that view is widely held in Cardiff from even within the Labour Party.
:28:30. > :28:42.Though you're not pushing to retract that at all? No, I never retract
:28:43. > :28:43.anything I say at all. At least we know where you stand and you did
:28:44. > :28:47.answer the questions straight. Now, EU leaders meeting in Brussels
:28:48. > :28:53.have agreed a package of measures to offer Turkey in return
:28:54. > :28:55.for the country taking back the thousands of migrants arriving
:28:56. > :28:57.in Greece every day. Many of them the islands and many
:28:58. > :29:03.make it onto the mainland. The plan is an essential part
:29:04. > :29:06.of the EU strategy to solve the migrant crisis, with fears
:29:07. > :29:09.that the numbers attempting the crossing will increase again
:29:10. > :29:11.as summer approaches. It has already been at record levels
:29:12. > :29:15.in the winter months. Let's talk to our correspondent
:29:16. > :29:21.in Brussels, Ben Wright. As I understand it, the European
:29:22. > :29:27.Union has agreed the broad outlines of what it's going to offer, based
:29:28. > :29:32.on the Merkel package. Do we have any idea yet what the Turkish
:29:33. > :29:37.reaction is? Many floors up from where I'm standing they are having
:29:38. > :29:42.that discussion right now. Donald Tusk, president of the Council,
:29:43. > :29:51.Jean-Claude Juncker, they are all having small groups of meetings with
:29:52. > :29:56.the key players to back an agreement hammered out before the rest of the
:29:57. > :29:58.28 members of the European Union sit down together and try and sign this
:29:59. > :30:02.off. The European Union agreed their negotiating position over five hours
:30:03. > :30:05.of talks last night. Now they're trying to do a deal. There is no
:30:06. > :30:10.guarantee there going to get one because there are a lot of sticking
:30:11. > :30:14.points. We know Angela Merkel really wants a deal, but for instance,
:30:15. > :30:17.Cyprus is not going to just sign off new accession talks with Turkey
:30:18. > :30:23.unless the Turkish government and accept that the Cypriot government
:30:24. > :30:27.is the government for the whole island. Greece is demanding more
:30:28. > :30:31.personnel to go down and help put this plan into practice. There are
:30:32. > :30:35.all sorts of hurdles to clear, despite what clearly is eight strong
:30:36. > :30:41.desire from the Turkish side and from the European Union to get an
:30:42. > :30:46.agreement. As I understand it, the deal will certainly in the early
:30:47. > :30:50.stages of it involve 72,000 Syrians and about 72,000 Syrians in Greece,
:30:51. > :31:04.would they just go back to Turkey? Is there any idea what then happens
:31:05. > :31:06.to be 72,000, because when I look at what is coming out of Eastern
:31:07. > :31:13.European capitals, they say they are not going to take any? Viktor Orban,
:31:14. > :31:17.the leader if you like for that central Eastern European bloc,
:31:18. > :31:21.absolutely adamant that he may even veto a deal here, really angry about
:31:22. > :31:27.the prospect of Syrian refugees as part of this plan being sent from
:31:28. > :31:32.Turkey, and" had out among other EU countries, not the UK I should say,
:31:33. > :31:39.we are not -- men handed out with a quota. There is real resistance
:31:40. > :31:44.there. This is the second part of the deal, the first part is that
:31:45. > :31:49.from an unspecified date, perhaps as early as Sunday, anyone arriving
:31:50. > :31:52.illegally on Greece's shores will be turned around, maybe within hours,
:31:53. > :31:56.possibly at the maximum of days, and is sent straight back to Turkey, and
:31:57. > :32:01.on this one-for-one exchange of serious -- Syrians begins. But the
:32:02. > :32:05.practical implication of the plan has huge questions around it, aside
:32:06. > :32:09.from the big broad concerns about the legality of the plan in the
:32:10. > :32:12.first place will stop this is why several leaders going into these
:32:13. > :32:16.talks, President Hollande last night for instance, were not suggesting
:32:17. > :32:20.that a deal here is inevitable, even though, as I said, everybody knows
:32:21. > :32:24.that another migration crisis is weeks away as the weather starts to
:32:25. > :32:28.warm up, and they need something in place that they hope can stop people
:32:29. > :32:33.making that journey across the GMC to Greece. Just finally, when I used
:32:34. > :32:37.to cover these summits, we used to judge them on links, whether we
:32:38. > :32:44.needed one, two or three shirts. How many have you got with you? I have a
:32:45. > :32:47.few shirts. I have just heard somebody say they may need some new
:32:48. > :32:56.pants, so I think there is an expectation here that this could go
:32:57. > :32:57.on a bit. I will keep you posted. BBC News through out the day will
:32:58. > :32:59.keep you posted. And I'm joined now in the studio
:33:00. > :33:02.by the Labour MEP Claude Moraes, and from Wrexham by UKIP
:33:03. > :33:11.MEP Steven Woolfe. Claude Moraes, let me come to you
:33:12. > :33:16.first, are you comfortable in doing a deal like this with Turkey? Know,
:33:17. > :33:23.and that it would work as well is going to be a really moot point.
:33:24. > :33:28.Ashun no. This one-for-one, has not been tried around the world, perhaps
:33:29. > :33:31.Australia, push backs, and many take one, it is going to be extremely
:33:32. > :33:39.difficult, but if I tell you where it is coming from, it is coming from
:33:40. > :33:43.genuine crisis. Secondly, I was speaking to the Greek Immigration
:33:44. > :33:48.Minister on Wednesday, and he said Turkey will be part of a solution of
:33:49. > :33:58.sorts. So you have to try something. The final solution to this, if you
:33:59. > :34:01.like... Not the best phrase. I just realised, a compassionate and
:34:02. > :34:08.organised solution to this in the end will involve Turkey in some way.
:34:09. > :34:14.I think it is more realistic now, because you are dealing with Turkey
:34:15. > :34:19.not getting much, this views a realisation has 72 conditions.
:34:20. > :34:23.Taxation is as far away as it ever was. Cyprus is saying no to the
:34:24. > :34:28.talks, France will block it, every parliament has to say yes to it.
:34:29. > :34:32.Accession is not even on the cards. So that's kind of Spectre is just
:34:33. > :34:39.not there. Let me go to Stephen Walsh. Even if the European Union
:34:40. > :34:42.did not exist, Europe would be facing a migrant crisis, and in some
:34:43. > :34:47.collective way we would have to deal with that, and we would have to deal
:34:48. > :34:52.with Turkey, wouldn't it? Absolutely. I have always said on
:34:53. > :34:55.the show and in others that this crisis is a combination of many
:34:56. > :34:59.factors, not just the war happening in Syria, but the regime change we
:35:00. > :35:04.had in Libya, the impact in Afghanistan and Iraq, and of course
:35:05. > :35:08.the economic costs of having trade between the European Union and other
:35:09. > :35:12.countries in Africa that puts tariff on those countries, very
:35:13. > :35:16.excessively. So the only solution to this would be a global solution run
:35:17. > :35:21.by the United Nations, and not placing the pressure solely on the
:35:22. > :35:25.EU. That is the big thing that has been missing from the whole of this
:35:26. > :35:28.crisis from the start. The UN, the international community have not
:35:29. > :35:33.come together, they have all left it in the hands of the EU, and there
:35:34. > :35:36.are potential solutions to this. Take, for example, at the moment
:35:37. > :35:40.Russia has helped cleanse Isis from the northern part of Syria. There is
:35:41. > :35:44.a real opportunity now for the world to come together and have a safe
:35:45. > :35:49.zone in that area to allow Syrians to come back and create some kind of
:35:50. > :35:52.Marshall plan to rebuild that country and let those people have
:35:53. > :35:57.their lives back again. Can I just suggest to you though that if it has
:35:58. > :36:02.been difficult enough to get a concerted and collected action
:36:03. > :36:06.between 28 European members all in the same continent and union, that
:36:07. > :36:12.getting the kind of UN reaction that you are calling for, and the scale
:36:13. > :36:17.that would be required would be, to put it politely, unprecedented and
:36:18. > :36:21.unlikely? I don't think it would be unprecedented and unlikely, not like
:36:22. > :36:26.this potential deal, which is really reckless, foolish and potentially
:36:27. > :36:30.dangerous for the U -- long-term future of Europe as a continent. If
:36:31. > :36:35.you look at the way they dealt with the Kurdish area in northern Iraq,
:36:36. > :36:40.when we had to deal with Saddam Hussein, the world community came
:36:41. > :36:44.together and created a safe sound. That was basically the British and
:36:45. > :36:50.the Royal Marines that did that, that was John Major with his air
:36:51. > :36:53.cover, it wasn't the UN. I am suggesting here that on that
:36:54. > :36:57.occasion we came to a very positive, swift solution to enable the Kurds
:36:58. > :37:02.to live freely without the pressure that came from Saddam Hussein. Now
:37:03. > :37:08.we have great opportunity with Isil being depleted. Where is any
:37:09. > :37:11.evidence that Isil is depleted, any evidence I have seen has suggested
:37:12. > :37:14.that the Russians have not been attacking Islamic State at all.
:37:15. > :37:20.There is other evidence that they have cleansed Isis from that area,
:37:21. > :37:22.Assad has tried to look after that area himself and create some
:37:23. > :37:25.security, but the key point is that the Russians have backed down to the
:37:26. > :37:29.extent where they say there should be talks in Geneva, this is a great
:37:30. > :37:34.opportunity actually for the world to come together and said let's
:37:35. > :37:40.create this positive framework. Let us put that to Claude Moraes, what
:37:41. > :37:46.is your reaction? The UN might be a better vehicle the doing this? Is.
:37:47. > :37:50.Cotton, the UN are providing the tents you see in Turkey where there
:37:51. > :37:56.are almost -- it is a 4-star dichotomy. The UN is there. America
:37:57. > :37:58.take more, the Canadians could take more, and they are. The
:37:59. > :38:03.international community has to take more Syrians, no question, but when
:38:04. > :38:08.these countries, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey became saturated, they were
:38:09. > :38:11.always going to come to Europe, whether there was a European Union
:38:12. > :38:15.or not, that was going to happen, and this seems to be conveniently
:38:16. > :38:22.forgotten by those who want to just talk about the EU in this sense. The
:38:23. > :38:26.question is now what are you about the European crisis, Turkey will be
:38:27. > :38:29.some solution, but there is some realism in taking it down a notch
:38:30. > :38:35.and realising it won't just be about Turkey, which is what happened in
:38:36. > :38:42.the original discussion. There may be, Rosa, some kind of deal snatch
:38:43. > :38:46.Cox together, but I suggest there is a fair chance, put it no higher than
:38:47. > :38:50.that, that it could start to unravel very quickly, and that could be the
:38:51. > :38:54.backdrop to our referendum campaign, and it could well be unhelpful to
:38:55. > :39:00.those who wish us to remain in the European Union. I think it goes both
:39:01. > :39:04.ways, because the images that happen with each refugee surge that we see
:39:05. > :39:08.coming in the spring and summer, they are directly opposed to each
:39:09. > :39:14.other. On the one hand, you have streams of people coming in, and the
:39:15. > :39:17.concerns that our friends in Cardiff talked about, what that means for
:39:18. > :39:21.national countries. But then you also see these horrific sights of
:39:22. > :39:25.children dying, a little boy washed up on the beach last year I think
:39:26. > :39:29.change the whole nature of the debate last summer. It also
:39:30. > :39:32.suggested, did it not, that the European Union and not stepped up to
:39:33. > :39:36.the crease to deal with this huge problem, and now many months after
:39:37. > :39:47.it, it is still struggling to find a way forward. VE is useless, -- the
:39:48. > :39:53.EU is useless... I should point out that other people think it is not. I
:39:54. > :39:56.would argue that it would be worse because what this crisis shows is
:39:57. > :40:00.that you need to come together, and as you say, the deal being stitched
:40:01. > :40:04.together today is not going to be a perfect deal, it is not even going
:40:05. > :40:06.to be a particularly good deal, but it means that finally politicians
:40:07. > :40:13.and countries are coming together to try to get a grip on this. Are these
:40:14. > :40:18.ongoing relevance the backdrop to the referendum campaign, if I can
:40:19. > :40:21.put it that way, is this helpful to the Leave campaign? Yes, and I think
:40:22. > :40:26.the campaign is going in the direction of the leave aside anyway.
:40:27. > :40:31.I agree with Rosa, as you might think I would, that the European
:40:32. > :40:34.Union is absolutely hopeless, and it has demonstrated this on almost
:40:35. > :40:37.every major issue it has had to deal with, whether it is the single
:40:38. > :40:41.currency or the European Constitution or the rest of it, but
:40:42. > :40:44.on immigration and border control, it is known, as you say, that this
:40:45. > :40:49.was happening for at least 18 months, maybe longer. And it has
:40:50. > :40:53.done absolutely nothing concrete to deal with the problem at the
:40:54. > :40:56.beginning, and it is now completely out of control. I don't think there
:40:57. > :41:00.is anything that can be done that will work with Turkey. That will
:41:01. > :41:06.almost certainly unravel as fast as it is cobbled together. I think at
:41:07. > :41:13.the end it will be Turkey that will be the spectre that the referendum
:41:14. > :41:20.day vote when I think people will say we have had enough of this.
:41:21. > :41:26.Claude Moraes, is there not at least a possibility that any kind of
:41:27. > :41:33.agreement like this will be it illegal under not just UN, but under
:41:34. > :41:37.the Geneva Convention, and the European human rights laws? My
:41:38. > :41:44.understanding it is illegal to treat migrants as a group, every migrant
:41:45. > :41:50.needs to treat asylum seekers as individual cases. In this new deal,
:41:51. > :41:54.they have inserted individual analysis of each case, which is an
:41:55. > :41:58.extraordinary thing. It means people would be processed in Greece. It
:41:59. > :42:02.will be extremely difficult but there will be resources put into it.
:42:03. > :42:06.It has happened to the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, it has
:42:07. > :42:10.happened, and Europe can do it. I disagree with Trevor. I think on
:42:11. > :42:14.Turkey as a spectre for the Leave campaign, as people get the facts,
:42:15. > :42:17.and as Trevor knows, France across the political spectrum does not want
:42:18. > :42:22.Turkey in, Cyprus doesn't even want the talks to start. These
:42:23. > :42:25.liberalisation has been blocked by 72 chapters. Once people get the
:42:26. > :42:33.facts, they realise Turkey is not coming in. If they don't get Visa
:42:34. > :42:37.liberalisation, I understand they have met half the 72 conditions, but
:42:38. > :42:41.if it don't get that, why would they agree? There are too many problems
:42:42. > :42:47.in Turkey, and they realise there will only be one strand of a bigger
:42:48. > :42:51.solution. What is now happening is everyone is getting more realistic.
:42:52. > :42:55.Turkey is just not going to get that much any more because it has a lot
:42:56. > :42:59.of its own troubles. The EU has been much more realistic in this deal
:43:00. > :43:03.than it was in the original one. Just briefly, if there was to be
:43:04. > :43:08.some kind of UN deal overall, which you were advocating on our programme
:43:09. > :43:12.today, would it be right for Britain to take a bigger share than we
:43:13. > :43:19.planned to do of particularly Syrian migrants as part of a UN deal? I'm
:43:20. > :43:24.not sure we can pick out how many numbers we do. The right decision
:43:25. > :43:30.was to take those from the camps. Would we take more? This is not
:43:31. > :43:33.about the numbers you take or how you distribute them, because it
:43:34. > :43:38.could be an endless thing. You look at this migration crisis, uniform --
:43:39. > :43:45.you know from Germany, over 90% of those who have gone into Germany are
:43:46. > :43:48.economic migrants. You all talking about Greece, but you have to watch
:43:49. > :43:54.coming from Libya to Italy. There will be those who say we can't come
:43:55. > :44:05.into Greece, we tried to find other routes. So this process is going to
:44:06. > :44:10.be bigger. Greece is saying 50,000 would potentially come each month
:44:11. > :44:16.for the next year. Just before we go, we heard members of your party,
:44:17. > :44:23.the lead candidate on the South west central list for Welsh Assembly 's.
:44:24. > :44:26.He has talked about migrants in a particular road, I think, in
:44:27. > :44:32.Cardiff, having hygiene problems stop he said the head of the Labour
:44:33. > :44:35.Party in Cardiff Council is brain-dead, there are some people in
:44:36. > :44:40.Ukip in Wales calling for his deselection. What is your position?
:44:41. > :44:43.It is not for me to make the deselection process, that would be
:44:44. > :44:46.the NEC and I understand they will do so but what I will say is I have
:44:47. > :44:50.asked for the transcript of what this man has said from the
:44:51. > :44:55.journalist, and if the journalist has extrapolated his views to make
:44:56. > :44:58.it a gory story, then I think the journalist has repercussions. You
:44:59. > :45:02.can watch on the Daily Politics today on iPlayer. And I will do
:45:03. > :45:07.that, but if he has also said in the terms of the language that you blame
:45:08. > :45:10.migrants or those who come to this country for all the ills of this
:45:11. > :45:15.country, if there is a tone of any form of racism in their whatsoever,
:45:16. > :45:18.I will be demanding that the NEC takes the strongest terms possible
:45:19. > :45:22.to deal with this man, and not only that, I would ask those who have
:45:23. > :45:26.examined him and approve them that they too should be reprimanded by
:45:27. > :45:30.the NEC, because there is no room in this party for anyone, and I make
:45:31. > :45:34.that point emphatically, there is no room for anyone in this party going
:45:35. > :45:37.forward for anyone who makes any racist, xenophobic or any types of
:45:38. > :45:42.comments. This is not the way forward for this party in the
:45:43. > :45:43.future. Steven Woolfe in Wales, Claude Moraes in London, thank you
:45:44. > :45:48.for choosing us. -- joining us. Now, the MP for Rochdale,
:45:49. > :45:51.Simon Danczuk, has been ordered to pay back more than
:45:52. > :45:53.?11,000 pounds in expenses after an investigation
:45:54. > :45:54.by the Parliamentary Mr Danczuk was a Labour MP
:45:55. > :45:59.until he was suspended by the party in December over a separate incident
:46:00. > :46:02.in which he admitted sending lewd Let's talk to our political
:46:03. > :46:17.correspondent, Eleanor Garnier. Why is he paying back the 11,000,
:46:18. > :46:22.what did he claim that he shouldn't have done? He admits he has made a
:46:23. > :46:26.mistake, that is why he needs to pay this money back. He is the MP for
:46:27. > :46:30.Rochdale, so he lives up there, but he rents somewhere down in London,
:46:31. > :46:33.where he stays while he is working in Westminster, and under the
:46:34. > :46:42.Parliamentary rules, in addition to claiming for rent, MPs are also
:46:43. > :46:48.allowed to claim up to ?2400 per child, per year, as long as the
:46:49. > :46:58.children are routinely staying in the accommodation. Mr Danczuk has
:46:59. > :47:02.four children, and in relation to the claims for the younger children,
:47:03. > :47:05.they are deemed within the rules they are absolutely fine, but
:47:06. > :47:09.imitation to the two eldest children, and the claims he made the
:47:10. > :47:15.them, the investigation found Mr Danczuk had claimed more than
:47:16. > :47:21.?11,500 over three years, despite his children not ever staying with
:47:22. > :47:26.him. So he has now got to repay that. The investigation also
:47:27. > :47:29.concluded that he made those claims knowing there was no reasonable
:47:30. > :47:35.prospect of the children staying at the accommodation. So a pretty clear
:47:36. > :47:41.conclusion from the expenses watchdog. For his part, Mr Danczuk
:47:42. > :47:44.has said he holds his hands up, he made an error and will pay this
:47:45. > :47:47.money back as soon as possible. He also says he made the claims
:47:48. > :47:52.according to what he believed to be at the time as an accurate
:47:53. > :47:58.interpretation of the guidelines for study says he is happy to work with
:47:59. > :48:01.its, this watchdog, to help bring the regulations up-to-date so they
:48:02. > :48:05.are more in line with day-to-day realities of modern family life.
:48:06. > :48:12.Thank you very much for that. You do get the impression, you take
:48:13. > :48:19.everything else that has happened with Mr Danczuk, first of all it
:48:20. > :48:22.never rains but it pours for him now and secondly really the view in the
:48:23. > :48:29.Labour Party must be that his days as a Labour politician are over? I
:48:30. > :48:33.think so, he has one of those toxic bad smells around him now. I was
:48:34. > :48:36.part of the team that did the original expenses investigation and
:48:37. > :48:41.it amazes me that all these years on politicians are still cavalier with
:48:42. > :48:46.what is our money, and also that the system is still seems to be broken.
:48:47. > :48:51.For it to come out, it was pretty damning today, it rarely is that
:48:52. > :48:58.damning, and for him to just say he's going to work with it... Payet
:48:59. > :49:01.back... And nothing further than that happens.
:49:02. > :49:03.Now, we broadcasters have to stay impeccably neutral when it come
:49:04. > :49:12.The newspapers, on the other hand, they can tell us
:49:13. > :49:14.exactly what they think, and try to influence us,
:49:15. > :49:18.But will that have any effect on how people decide how to vote?
:49:19. > :49:22.I spend a lot of time reading the papers in my job,
:49:23. > :49:27.but over the last few months, and for the next few months,
:49:28. > :49:30.they have been full of Europe, Europe, oh, and a little bit more
:49:31. > :49:38.But will what they say and the slant that these newspapers have have any
:49:39. > :49:44.Newspapers, will they influence how you vote in the EU referendum?
:49:45. > :49:46.I'm not going to vote on the EU.
:49:47. > :49:51.Because they haven't told you enough.
:49:52. > :49:54.You don't know what's doing that, what's doing that.
:49:55. > :50:01.It probably will, yeah, it probably will.
:50:02. > :50:04.Because I don't know very much about it.
:50:05. > :50:06.Will the newspapers influence how you vote in the EU referendum?
:50:07. > :50:13.I don't need the newspapers to make my mind up for me.
:50:14. > :50:16.I've already made my mind up, thank you.
:50:17. > :50:24.So you get it from them, from their perspective.
:50:25. > :50:27.But you wouldn't listen to one paper in particular?
:50:28. > :50:42.Because I always do my own politics, it's what I believe in my heart
:50:43. > :50:46.and from my mum and what I believe in the community is best for me.
:50:47. > :50:50.So if one of these papers came out and told you to vote one way
:50:51. > :50:54.Will the newspapers influence how you vote
:50:55. > :51:00.Well, everybody tells you what they want you to believe.
:51:01. > :51:03.And I think you don't get it from one source,
:51:04. > :51:09.you have to get information from different sources,
:51:10. > :51:10.before you make up your mind, that's all.
:51:11. > :51:16.And we're joined now by the former Liberal Democrat MP and campaigner
:51:17. > :51:30.In 1975, over 90% of the newspapers were in favour of Britain staying
:51:31. > :51:33.in. This time, more of them will probably be in favour of coming out.
:51:34. > :51:39.We don't know yet but certainly the coverage would suggest that. That's
:51:40. > :51:42.a free society. Yes. There is very clear history and it's reasonable
:51:43. > :51:46.that the press should be allowed to be partisan in the way that
:51:47. > :51:50.broadcasters are not. They have set themselves some rules within that,
:51:51. > :51:55.that they are supposed to separate news and comment. If that was really
:51:56. > :52:00.applied by the self-regulatory and several of the papers wouldn't be
:52:01. > :52:04.able to print everything every day. Every headline has to be justified
:52:05. > :52:07.by the text below it, not what is left in the office or some sources
:52:08. > :52:13.that are not included by the headline. And also they have to take
:52:14. > :52:17.care not to print in accurate, misleading or distorted information.
:52:18. > :52:20.They can even be biased in their news coverage but what I'm not
:52:21. > :52:26.supposed to do is distort or mislead, or lie. Do they really need
:52:27. > :52:31.to separate news from opinion in newspapers? If you look at front
:52:32. > :52:35.pages on the left and the right, it is clear that the news is motivated,
:52:36. > :52:39.the choice of the news and how they present that news, whether it's the
:52:40. > :52:44.guardian or the Daily Mail, is informed by their worldview. As I
:52:45. > :52:49.say, if they followed their own code, and this is their own code,
:52:50. > :52:56.written by a committee mainly of editors, it says they must take care
:52:57. > :52:59.to separate comment and news. They don't do it, I agree, but maybe they
:53:00. > :53:04.should just abandon the pretence that they do it, given that they
:53:05. > :53:07.don't. Did you sign up to that, separating news from opinion, at a
:53:08. > :53:11.tabloid? I don't think you can really do that because the editorial
:53:12. > :53:16.line of a newspaper colours and flavours the approach to news. It's
:53:17. > :53:20.one of the facts of life. I think it's fantasyland to suggest that
:53:21. > :53:24.because a paper has a view, as we do, particularly on Europe but on
:53:25. > :53:30.many other subjects, that we don't express that in the coverage of
:53:31. > :53:35.things we agree on. But I think that what it means is that you shouldn't
:53:36. > :53:40.state as a factual news story what is an opinion of the editor. Maybe
:53:41. > :53:46.Trevor is right, that it can't be done. In which case their sham
:53:47. > :53:50.regulator should dispense with that sham rule. Trevor is a well-placed
:53:51. > :53:54.because he is on this independent regulator and I admire him for his
:53:55. > :53:58.opinions. But just like there is no way I should be on a press
:53:59. > :54:03.regulator, there is no way that a regulator that says it is
:54:04. > :54:11.independent, the biggest advocate of carrying on before pre-Leveson.. You
:54:12. > :54:15.are a journalist, what are you doing as a press regulator? They needed a
:54:16. > :54:19.journalist who knew about popular newspapers and therefore I was
:54:20. > :54:25.appointed. You were appointed by Hayden Phillips, who you appointed
:54:26. > :54:29.from the foundation group. So you appointed the guy who appointed you.
:54:30. > :54:33.That's a really cushy number, if your newspaper did that you would be
:54:34. > :54:40.the first to call it out. So I think you should resign yourself. I think
:54:41. > :54:47.that is perfectly legitimate. My role in the appointment of the
:54:48. > :54:54.chairman of the selectors was very peripheral. We simply met... This is
:54:55. > :54:59.surely not what you came for. I want to go back to Europe. The British
:55:00. > :55:03.papers are pretty Eurosceptic, aren't they? That informs how they
:55:04. > :55:08.are covering this referendum. I think by and large they are. I think
:55:09. > :55:13.it's very difficult not to be. I think in our case we are trying to
:55:14. > :55:18.get as much balanced publicity and coverage with views from all sides
:55:19. > :55:22.as we possibly can. Most of the headlines are pretty negative about
:55:23. > :55:28.Europe. Because I think the subject is pretty negative. It's a perfectly
:55:29. > :55:34.legitimate view, but it's not a balance. On Newsnight you said that
:55:35. > :55:38.Rupert Murdoch chooses the line. I don't object to that, proprietors
:55:39. > :55:43.only newspaper and they can say what the line is, it usually suits their
:55:44. > :55:46.own commercial interests, but what I object to is newspapers saying we
:55:47. > :55:50.speak for our readers, when really it is the proprietor saying it. I
:55:51. > :55:54.don't really the standard line of your argument. There is no reason
:55:55. > :56:01.why Rupert Murdoch shouldn't decide the line of something. I agree, but
:56:02. > :56:05.then admitted, that he does. I think he did admit it. Andrews said there
:56:06. > :56:10.is a lot of negative stuff in your newspaper and you say it is a
:56:11. > :56:18.negative issue. There is a lot of negative stuff in your newspaper
:56:19. > :56:20.about it because of one man who owns the newspaper. You're making an
:56:21. > :56:26.assertion but it doesn't mean you're correct. We are entitled to have a
:56:27. > :56:33.say about a major subject. He is saying it is Rupert Murdoch's view.
:56:34. > :56:38.We are going round in a circle here. The ultimate view as Rupert Murdoch
:56:39. > :56:40.has said several times in the past, he will make the ultimate decision
:56:41. > :56:46.after a word from the editor of the paper. I think we're not giving
:56:47. > :56:48.enough credence to the other way around, which is that readers often
:56:49. > :56:57.drive their editorial decisions. Some readers are pretty anti-EU, and
:56:58. > :57:02.working on newspapers when I did, that was very much a consideration,
:57:03. > :57:07.what do our readers think? We knew what our readers thought and what
:57:08. > :57:09.they wanted. I always thought it was best to ignore readers A you think
:57:10. > :57:13.that the weight of your scepticism in the papers will influence the
:57:14. > :57:21.outcome? If they say things that aren't true, and the Queen headline
:57:22. > :57:26.was not supported by the text, even if what she said was correct, it did
:57:27. > :57:28.not say that she backed Brexit, that was a breach of the code. OK, we
:57:29. > :57:31.have to leave it there. Now,
:57:32. > :57:33.there's an old showbusiness saying that you should never work
:57:34. > :57:35.with children or animals. Well, we have animals in the studio
:57:36. > :57:38.here all the time and it's never done us any harm, although
:57:39. > :57:41.Molly the dog's hair is tricky to get out
:57:42. > :57:43.of the carpet, I'm told. So when we agreed to let two CBBC
:57:44. > :57:46.viewers with an ambition to work in politics come on the show,
:57:47. > :57:49.we thought what could go wrong? in politics come on the show,
:57:50. > :57:52.we thought, what could go wrong? Well here they are, two
:57:53. > :57:54.10-year-olds called Charlotte and Henrietta, being interviewed
:57:55. > :57:56.by me about their support You know what I mean
:57:57. > :57:59.by the nanny state? The Government telling
:58:00. > :58:01.you what to do. Isn't this just another example
:58:02. > :58:04.of the Government trying to tell Mr Neil, do you remember
:58:05. > :58:08.on January 31st 1983, when seat belts
:58:09. > :58:09.were made compulsory? It wasn't a popular idea,
:58:10. > :58:13.people didn't like it. But do you know how many
:58:14. > :58:15.lives it saved a year? Because the Government
:58:16. > :58:23.did something. If it's saving lives
:58:24. > :58:27.and it's helping the NHS, I think we should be
:58:28. > :58:30.told what to do. When I was your age and someone
:58:31. > :58:33.told me not to do something, Maybe you weren't
:58:34. > :58:52.educated properly enough. To future politicians there!
:58:53. > :58:53.Wonderful, isn't it? They were great.
:58:54. > :58:56.That was a clip from All Over the Workplace, which was broadcast
:58:57. > :59:20.I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics.
:59:21. > :59:32.We will dissect the budget yet again. Hope you can join me.
:59:33. > :59:34.It's here. The biggest names in sport
:59:35. > :59:37.and entertainment are warming up for an unmissable night.
:59:38. > :59:39.Meet The Luthers. My family want the best for me.
:59:40. > :59:42.Jack Whitehall seeks help from Gareth Bale.
:59:43. > :59:47.so can you introduce me to Cristiano Ronaldo?