:00:36. > :00:38.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.The Belgian capital Brussels is under lockdown following a series
:00:42. > :00:46.of explosions at the airport and on the city's metro system.
:00:47. > :00:48.At least 28 are believed to have been killed,
:00:49. > :00:56.The blasts began early this morning, and come just days after the main
:00:57. > :01:01.fugitive from the Paris terror attacks was seized in Belgium.
:01:02. > :01:04.The Belgian prime minister has called it a black day
:01:05. > :01:13.In London, ministers are holding an emergency meeting while security
:01:14. > :01:17.has been stepped up at British airports.
:01:18. > :01:21.David Cameron says the UK government will do everything it can to help.
:01:22. > :01:26.We'll bring you all the latest developments throughout the show.
:01:27. > :01:29.George Osborne is to come to the Commons to defend his Budget.
:01:30. > :01:33.He'll confirm he's dropped planned cuts to disability benefits,
:01:34. > :01:36.but how will he fill the ?4.4 billion gap and just how
:01:37. > :01:42.damaged is the Chancellor and the government?
:01:43. > :01:44.And before the election the parties promised ?8 billion
:01:45. > :01:57.But were health bosses persuaded to lower their demands by Number 10?
:01:58. > :02:00.And joining us for the programme today it's the former
:02:01. > :02:07.Liberal Democrat MP and former coalition minister David Laws.
:02:08. > :02:11.Welcome to the programme. Good to be with you.
:02:12. > :02:15.So, the Belgian capital of Brussels has been hit by a series
:02:16. > :02:17.of coordinated terror attacks this morning.
:02:18. > :02:21.At least one of them reported to be the result of a suicide bomber,
:02:22. > :02:23.and the border with France has been closed.
:02:24. > :02:25.In a press conference the Belgian Prime Minister has said,
:02:26. > :02:30.Brussels airport and the city's metro system have been targetted.
:02:31. > :02:36.Reports of the number of people killed are varying and rising.
:02:37. > :02:38.But Belgian officials say at least 28 are dead.
:02:39. > :02:40.The government there has raised its terror alert
:02:41. > :02:45.The explosions come four days after Salah Abdeslam,
:02:46. > :02:52.a key suspect in the Paris attacks, was captured in the city.
:02:53. > :02:54.Eurostar has cancelled all services between London and Brussels.
:02:55. > :02:59.Flights between the UK and Brussels are disrupted.
:03:00. > :03:02.In London, the Prime Minister is to chair an emergency COBRA
:03:03. > :03:05.meeting later today to determine Britain's response.
:03:06. > :03:09.So what do we know about the Brussels attacks so far?
:03:10. > :03:11.Well, as we've been saying, several explosions have struck
:03:12. > :03:15.Brussels airport and the metro system.
:03:16. > :03:18.Two blasts tore through the departures area of Zaventem
:03:19. > :03:29.airport shortly after 7 o'clock this morning UK time.
:03:30. > :03:35.A media report said that left at least 13 dead.
:03:36. > :03:37.An hour later, an explosion hit Maelbeek metro station,
:03:38. > :03:47.Transport officials said 15 died at the station.
:03:48. > :03:49.The airport and whole transport system have been closed.
:03:50. > :03:51.Well we can speak now to our correspondent Gavin Lee.
:03:52. > :04:01.Gavin, can you just tell us what the scenes where like earlier on today?
:04:02. > :04:06.Yes, this was just before 8am in the morning. The first reports they were
:04:07. > :04:12.two explosions inside the atrium, the check-in area of Brussels
:04:13. > :04:16.airport. We've to eyewitnesses. I'm about 400 metres from the airport,
:04:17. > :04:24.this is a very familiar area for anyone arriving. It's just the
:04:25. > :04:28.immediate departures area, all of it sealed off now. I have spoken to
:04:29. > :04:32.eyewitnesses who have been making their way through this business
:04:33. > :04:35.area, the business quarter of the airport, going to a sports hall now
:04:36. > :04:39.for information. What they are saying is they were two bombs within
:04:40. > :04:47.about seconds of each other, possibly 30 seconds, and it was by
:04:48. > :04:51.the check-in desk number six, a huge check-in terminal, immediately
:04:52. > :04:53.people started to run. A group of schoolchildren from Belgium were
:04:54. > :04:57.travelling to Prague and said they were trying to clamber out but
:04:58. > :05:01.people were running on top of each other. I spoke to the man who is
:05:02. > :05:06.basically the baggage rapper who said he was personally involved and
:05:07. > :05:12.heard shouting in Arabic. He went to the scene to pull out seven people,
:05:13. > :05:19.a number of them died in his arms. He described it, in tears, how he
:05:20. > :05:25.was trying to help in vain and all around at the moment, we are seeing
:05:26. > :05:30.police trying to escort people. Flights landed in Brussels at this
:05:31. > :05:35.time, people were in panic, being told to get out quickly, and the
:05:36. > :05:39.airport is completely closed. Every few minutes we hear the ambulances
:05:40. > :05:44.and Fire Services continuing to go in. No confirmation in terms of how
:05:45. > :05:49.many have died. The Prime Minister here Charles Michel said it is
:05:50. > :05:53.scores, violent attack and will have more details as soon as possible.
:05:54. > :05:59.Remember, this is four days after the arrest of Salah Abdeslam, three
:06:00. > :06:03.kilometres from here in Molenbeek and right now, people are continuing
:06:04. > :06:04.to leave the airport as quickly as possible. Gavin, thank you very
:06:05. > :06:06.much. Brussels has been on a state of high
:06:07. > :06:09.alert since the terror It emerged that many of those
:06:10. > :06:13.involved in the Paris attacks had Back in November, terrorists killed
:06:14. > :06:16.130 people and injured many more in a series of gun and suicide
:06:17. > :06:20.attacks at various sites in Paris. Most of the terrorists died
:06:21. > :06:23.in the attacks but two of them, Salah Abdeslam and Mohamed Abrini,
:06:24. > :06:27.evaded the authorities and went Salah Abdeslam was finally captured
:06:28. > :06:32.on Friday in an anti-terror raid And on Sunday, Belgium's Foreign
:06:33. > :06:40.Minister, Didier Reynders, said that Abdeslam was preparing
:06:41. > :06:43.further attacks before he was arrested, declaring
:06:44. > :06:45.that he was "ready to restart Joining me now is the Foreign
:06:46. > :06:58.Affairs Analyst Tim Marshall. And Chris Lipscomb ahead of the
:06:59. > :07:04.National counterterrorism security service. Welcome to you. Is it your
:07:05. > :07:09.belief than that, although Salah Abdeslam was captured, that the cell
:07:10. > :07:12.was done operating? He warned of further attacks and in the end, it
:07:13. > :07:18.showed the capability were still there. Very much so but not only
:07:19. > :07:22.that, the Foreign Minister and lawyer said he is cooperating. What
:07:23. > :07:26.does that tell people in hiding? He's telling more about us. The
:07:27. > :07:31.moment the Foreign Minister said we've uncovered a new cell, they
:07:32. > :07:34.knew they had to move. Now, if you are doing that deliberately to
:07:35. > :07:37.stampede them because you're watching them and you can take them
:07:38. > :07:43.when they move, that's one thing, but if you've just accelerated their
:07:44. > :07:46.operation, that's another thing. The second point, the Belgian
:07:47. > :07:51.intelligence service, very brave people doing a hard job, but they
:07:52. > :07:56.are not the a team, and the last bit is that they are also so removed
:07:57. > :08:01.from the communities in which they need to be working within and they
:08:02. > :08:07.are not there. It does seem incredible that even Salah Abdeslam
:08:08. > :08:11.was captured four months after a massive manhunt and he was up the
:08:12. > :08:14.road. Two miles up the road with a beard. He was
:08:15. > :08:16.road. Two miles up the road with a because the local guys in the
:08:17. > :08:24.takeaway knew him, and two miles away from Molenbeek and for two
:08:25. > :08:29.Manse, he lived like that. They haven't got the connections in the
:08:30. > :08:33.communities they need to have. -- two months. They are blind and deaf
:08:34. > :08:39.and behind, so how do you capture someone if you are blind and deaf?
:08:40. > :08:45.They are extraordinarily behind. The prime ministers said, he feared what
:08:46. > :08:50.was going to happen is was always going to happen because they had no
:08:51. > :08:56.idea what was going on it in an area which is a hotbed for jihadists. But
:08:57. > :09:00.it is also a sign the bombers are showing they can still terrorise at
:09:01. > :09:06.city like Brussels, which is now in lockdown. You can't get in or out by
:09:07. > :09:12.train or plane, move around inside it, and what the bombers have done
:09:13. > :09:17.is hit targets very deliberately. If it's true it was the American
:09:18. > :09:19.Airways check-in, next to the Starbucks in the airport, you fit
:09:20. > :09:27.the symbols of the USA, which they are after. Those are the reports,
:09:28. > :09:30.aren't they? The Metro station hit was not random. That is because it
:09:31. > :09:33.is right next door to the EU headquarters and so it is a blow
:09:34. > :09:39.against European unity. This symbolic stuff matters. Tonight the
:09:40. > :09:42.Eiffel Tower will be had in the colours of the Belgian flag as a
:09:43. > :09:47.sign of unity because these bombs are designed to break unity.
:09:48. > :09:51.Francois Hollande has that it's an attack on Europe, not just on
:09:52. > :09:54.Belgium but the hallmarks of an attack like this targeting the
:09:55. > :10:01.transport system, but obviously we have seen and is a reminder of July
:10:02. > :10:03.the 7th and the Madrid bombings but different to Paris? I would defer to
:10:04. > :10:09.someone who knows more about that sort of thing, but they know their
:10:10. > :10:16.tradecraft and there is a report which came out a couple of days ago
:10:17. > :10:21.from the USA which mention the Paris attacks, these people are properly
:10:22. > :10:26.trained. For example, you buy a phone in the morning, as in concept
:10:27. > :10:30.make one focal, throw it away. That takes knowledge and training. -- one
:10:31. > :10:36.phone call. Just before I come to you about the style of the attacks
:10:37. > :10:41.and the security services, they are not quite up to the job facing them
:10:42. > :10:47.at the moment, we can also report there is one British person injured,
:10:48. > :10:51.but no fatalities. First of all come on the transport network, and that
:10:52. > :10:54.causes maximum mayhem. Yes, it does and weeks in the transport networks
:10:55. > :10:58.across the world being attacked time and time again and the aviation
:10:59. > :11:01.sector is consistently being targeted. What we have here is
:11:02. > :11:07.something we have seen before in Moscow. The Moscow airport was
:11:08. > :11:14.actually blown up by someone being able to walk into that terminal with
:11:15. > :11:17.a suitcase bomb, so this is not new. I'm a bit disappointed actually that
:11:18. > :11:24.we have not really learned some of the lessons, we know from fact if
:11:25. > :11:28.you want to secure a building as an example, you put the security on the
:11:29. > :11:31.outside of the building, not in the middle of it, because it's too late
:11:32. > :11:37.by the time it got to that point. One thing which struck me is the
:11:38. > :11:40.explosions were in the departure lounge, which indicates a complete
:11:41. > :11:44.breach of security within the building, not just on the outer
:11:45. > :11:48.building. It's not really a breach of the allow people to walk into
:11:49. > :11:54.airports with suitcases, that's what we do. Some airports around the
:11:55. > :11:58.world like Istanbul and India, where the threat is different, will do a
:11:59. > :12:03.security search regime on the external parts, so you can only go
:12:04. > :12:07.into the terminal if you have your ticket and your bags are searched.
:12:08. > :12:13.Maybe we have got to move towards that in the West. Do you think we
:12:14. > :12:23.should? What that does do, I think we saw it after the liquid bombs in
:12:24. > :12:26.Heathrow, if you are in single file and backed up around, there still
:12:27. > :12:30.may be an attack full to be dumped have that density of casualty you
:12:31. > :12:35.have inside the airport terminal this is referring to. That's one
:12:36. > :12:38.thing to be looked at by people all over the world including this
:12:39. > :12:45.country full is are we going to change the way you check in? David
:12:46. > :12:48.laws, your thoughts on what's been going on today? Horrendous, a
:12:49. > :12:51.reminder of how well we've done so far in this country and how well the
:12:52. > :12:57.security services are done in ensuring these types of incidents
:12:58. > :13:02.have happened so far but we can't be complacent about that. The number of
:13:03. > :13:05.targets to protect against in an environment where people are per to
:13:06. > :13:10.take their own lives makes this job very, very difficult. We can't be
:13:11. > :13:14.sure, even with better levels of skill and wisdom we have in this
:13:15. > :13:19.country that we won't, at some stage, have this type of offence
:13:20. > :13:24.committed in the UK. We will talk later on about the balance between
:13:25. > :13:27.security and dignity, but Boris Johnson has already said that a
:13:28. > :13:34.police presence is going to be increased unsurprisingly in London.
:13:35. > :13:37.Would you like other specific things to be done immediately to try and
:13:38. > :13:42.keep people safe at British airports and train stations? The people who
:13:43. > :13:46.are the real experts, MI5, the police, will give that judgment of
:13:47. > :13:53.the Government and the Government will act sensibly. We know that this
:13:54. > :13:57.risk was there one year ago, a month ago, and will be there in a year's
:13:58. > :14:01.time so we should not overreact to individual incidents. We know this
:14:02. > :14:04.is a permanent risk we will have to live with for many years and we
:14:05. > :14:08.ought to be thinking forward even when things like this are taking
:14:09. > :14:14.place. Let's talk about the security services. They are not the a team.
:14:15. > :14:17.Do you agree with that? The ones in Brussels? Yes, I've been to Brussels
:14:18. > :14:22.and spoken to police officers over there and they felt quite hindered I
:14:23. > :14:28.Government and actually what they were... It's very complicated, lots
:14:29. > :14:34.of police forces, they have got very different communities and some of
:14:35. > :14:38.them have 75% Muslim origin, so it's difficult for them to penetrate and
:14:39. > :14:43.get the intelligence they need. Clearly, if Salah Abdeslam was able
:14:44. > :14:47.to stay on the run for four Munns, that's incredible. They will be very
:14:48. > :14:52.disappointed if things like that happened in the UK. You agree they
:14:53. > :14:56.are not doing enough, the security services, and leaving their country
:14:57. > :15:00.exposed? There's obviously a problem there. They obviously need to learn
:15:01. > :15:05.a few lessons. We are good at terrorism in the UK because we have
:15:06. > :15:09.so much experience. Experience is something can't just get overnight.
:15:10. > :15:12.They will have learned lessons from this. There was an issue with people
:15:13. > :15:16.being able to move around the continent are very easily. That is
:15:17. > :15:20.clearly a problem and something the whole of Europe based on a cat. I
:15:21. > :15:24.think we can actually hear Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London giving
:15:25. > :15:25.his response certainly while the security meeting has been going on.
:15:26. > :15:36.Let's listen to Boris Johnson. Kallis it looks as though they may
:15:37. > :15:42.be one UK casualty, details on that are very sketchy at the moment. The
:15:43. > :15:48.most important thing to get across is we have no reason to think there
:15:49. > :15:53.is any reader across from what has happened in Brussels to the UK, no
:15:54. > :15:57.intelligence that there is an immediate threat but as a precaution
:15:58. > :16:00.and for the purposes of reassurance, there has been a stepping up of the
:16:01. > :16:08.presence of police at major airports. The casualties is an
:16:09. > :16:14.injured person, not a fatality, that's the latest report we have
:16:15. > :16:19.been hearing. Would people will ask is, where do we go from here? --
:16:20. > :16:27.what people will ask. All of the capital cities in Europe must be
:16:28. > :16:32.even more worried than before. He has not raised the alert but the
:16:33. > :16:36.profile of being aware stop he knows that after couple of days, that will
:16:37. > :16:41.diminish. I do think that is for public consumption. He went to great
:16:42. > :16:45.pains to say there is no intelligence to suggest... It's a
:16:46. > :16:51.reaction to what has happened in Brussels. So the UK is not under any
:16:52. > :16:54.more threat than it was yesterday all will be tomorrow, that's just
:16:55. > :16:57.for a couple of days, people feel better, you will see some extra
:16:58. > :17:06.police, and this is happening all across Europe. Where it will play in
:17:07. > :17:10.is debate about communications, the intelligence bill, and how much
:17:11. > :17:14.phone traffic you can monitor because that was key to the Paris
:17:15. > :17:19.attacks, the phone traffic. That will play into the debate and also
:17:20. > :17:26.the political debate about security in this country. And also the new
:17:27. > :17:28.referendum debate, although I don't want to go there. Thank you very
:17:29. > :17:30.much. George Osborne will face MPs
:17:31. > :17:32.in the Commons today to defend his Budget
:17:33. > :17:35.and his handling of the economy. It's the first time a Chancellor has
:17:36. > :17:37.closed a Budget debate since Ken Clarke was in office -
:17:38. > :17:40.a sign perhaps of the pressure It comes after the resignation
:17:41. > :17:46.of Iain Duncan Smith as Work and Pensions Secretary,
:17:47. > :17:48.who criticised the planned cuts to disability benefit
:17:49. > :17:53.as "deeply unfair". As well as that, Mr Osborne has had
:17:54. > :17:56.to back down in the face of other potential rebellions.
:17:57. > :18:00.So is his Budget unravelling? Reforms to the Personal
:18:01. > :18:03.Independence Payment, or PIP, had been due to save a total
:18:04. > :18:07.of ?4.4 billion from the welfare budget by 2020 as part
:18:08. > :18:13.of Mr Osborne's commitment to reducing benefits spending
:18:14. > :18:19.by ?12 billion a year. Yesterday, the new Work
:18:20. > :18:21.and Pensions Secretary Stephen Crabb said the cut had been scrapped,
:18:22. > :18:26.adding that, "Behind every statistic there is a human being,
:18:27. > :18:29.and perhaps sometimes in government Ministers have also confirmed
:18:30. > :18:37.they will not oppose calls to scrap the so-called "tampon tax"
:18:38. > :18:40.when the issue comes to a vote. VAT is currently charged at 5%
:18:41. > :18:42.on sanitary products. A Labour amendment calls
:18:43. > :18:51.for a zero rate of VAT. Mr Osborne will confirm that the EU
:18:52. > :18:56.has agreed to concede on this. And finally, the Government has
:18:57. > :18:58.backed down on the so-called solar tax in the face of Tory rebels
:18:59. > :19:03.and Labour MPs who are trying to block a rise in VAT on solar
:19:04. > :19:10.panels and home insulation. The current rate is 5%,
:19:11. > :19:12.but the European Court of Justice Tory rebels want to give two fingers
:19:13. > :19:21.to the ECJ but it could mean a legal headache for the Chancellor
:19:22. > :19:25.in the run-up to the EU referendum. Well, we're joined now by the former
:19:26. > :19:27.Social Security Secretary And, of course, David Laws
:19:28. > :19:53.is a former Liberal Democrat Chief Was it a clock up, the changes to
:19:54. > :19:57.PIP? Doesn't handle well. I had a rule at the DSS, any difficult
:19:58. > :20:01.decision to take should never be a surprise, it should be trailed well
:20:02. > :20:05.in advance, discussed well in advance. It meant that if you
:20:06. > :20:09.disgusted well in advance, you heard some of the criticism beforehand and
:20:10. > :20:15.you could modify what you are going to do, and secondly, when you did it
:20:16. > :20:19.people were prepared for it. The British people are actually quite
:20:20. > :20:23.rational for it, if you prepare the case, they will accept it. If you
:20:24. > :20:29.bounce it on them, they won't. So you saying these were the right
:20:30. > :20:34.changes? I'm sure there is a problem and we address that problem, but
:20:35. > :20:37.even now, I don't know what the changes were they were proposing to
:20:38. > :20:43.address. But they have now been dropped. If it was a mistake of
:20:44. > :20:47.presentation, you agreed with the substance, then you are to some
:20:48. > :20:50.extent at odds with the new Secretary of State in there said
:20:51. > :20:53.very clearly, these are not going to happen, they will be no more attempt
:20:54. > :21:02.to take money from the welfare budget. Exactly. Is that right or
:21:03. > :21:07.wrong? It is a correct description of what he has said! I think it is
:21:08. > :21:12.on the wise for us to ring fence every budget in government, and
:21:13. > :21:16.especially the biggest -- I think it is unwise. I don't what many taken
:21:17. > :21:23.away from disabled people who need it, but I want us to ensure we have
:21:24. > :21:30.benefits that go to those most in need -- I don't want to take money
:21:31. > :21:35.away. But listening to the debate yesterday and following Iain Duncan
:21:36. > :21:39.Smith's resignation and the sentiment he expressed, that your
:21:40. > :21:44.party was no longer being fair, that the cuts were falling on those
:21:45. > :21:50.people who could least afford it, while tax cuts were being given to
:21:51. > :21:53.be better off. Is that fair? That was a risk the Chancellor chose to
:21:54. > :21:59.run. I was asked beforehand whether I would cut top rate of income tax
:22:00. > :22:04.and I said that you need a very strong case for doing so, and it
:22:05. > :22:08.would be important to do so only you could justify it in the of
:22:09. > :22:17.everything else. And he failed to do that? Manifested. That is career as
:22:18. > :22:25.Chancellor, had been damaged so much that he struggle to continue? I'm
:22:26. > :22:31.sure he will continue as Chancellor. Reshuffle could come along, he could
:22:32. > :22:37.be moved. I am asking you as a guest, representing the Tory party.
:22:38. > :22:40.I suspect he will stay in post. Conceivably, he might be moved to
:22:41. > :22:46.the Foreign Office but I don't think so. Has a damaged his longer-term
:22:47. > :22:52.ambitions? It has damaged them but not destroyed them. As I said
:22:53. > :22:56.yesterday, ending Smith has done more, if you like, to help people
:22:57. > :23:03.who claim benefits than Labour has done over the last five years -- in
:23:04. > :23:06.Duncan Smith. The canonisation of Iain Duncan Smith is perhaps
:23:07. > :23:13.premature, there's lots of damage he has done, but returning to your
:23:14. > :23:16.points about the Chancellor, I think that really this resignation letter
:23:17. > :23:22.and the condition within it that the decisions that were taken, were
:23:23. > :23:26.taken from political reasons and not national interest, is a devastating
:23:27. > :23:30.accusation to make from a former leader, if I may say so, of the
:23:31. > :23:36.Conservative Party, the current Chancellor and Prime Minister and
:23:37. > :23:40.George Osborne, his future, if you want to stay as Chancellor
:23:41. > :23:42.commission ruled himself out of any leadership contest because
:23:43. > :23:46.everything he does will be interpreted through that prison, is
:23:47. > :23:52.this purely a political decision in order to advance his own leadership
:23:53. > :23:56.campaign, rather than something in the national interest? We have a
:23:57. > :24:00.situation where six days after the budget, the Chancellor is having to
:24:01. > :24:06.come in front of the House of Commons to rewrite his budget. There
:24:07. > :24:11.is a lying there in the red, ?4.4 billion of expenditure, which can't
:24:12. > :24:17.explain, where that is coming from -- there was a lying there in the
:24:18. > :24:21.red book. Are they going to cut other budgets? They seem to have
:24:22. > :24:23.ring fence the Department for Work and Pensions yesterday, what is the
:24:24. > :24:32.explanation for what they going to do? Has the budget unravelled? It's
:24:33. > :24:37.a total and utter mess. There I say that both George Osborne and Iain
:24:38. > :24:43.Duncan Smith may be missing the Liberal Democrats because it was
:24:44. > :24:50.decisions like this, the PIP cuts... You were happy to sign off to the
:24:51. > :24:53.bedroom tax as Liberal Democrats. But I can tell you that over the
:24:54. > :24:58.course of the last Parliament, they were a range of welfare cuts
:24:59. > :25:00.proposed by the Treasury, vetoed by the Liberal Democrats, and I think
:25:01. > :25:04.you Duncan Smith would probably still be in government had we still
:25:05. > :25:15.be there to veto this. The problem with these PIP changes, I don't
:25:16. > :25:16.think it's the detail of the PIP adjustments, it is this contrast
:25:17. > :25:21.between a budget that cut capital gains tax was above the richest
:25:22. > :25:25.people in the country, increased a prudent opportunity for those who
:25:26. > :25:31.have expensive, well-paid lawyers, at the same time as imposing welfare
:25:32. > :25:34.cuts on people with low incomes, and that has always been a blind spot
:25:35. > :25:40.for both George Osborne and David Cameron. Is it a blind spot for
:25:41. > :25:46.conservatives? Is compassionate conservatism dead or was it ever
:25:47. > :25:49.alive? It's not dead, I was Secretary of State for Social
:25:50. > :25:57.Security and took these issues extremely seriously. I got by
:25:58. > :26:04.without any rebellions at all. But you were famous but your little list
:26:05. > :26:09.as well! I wasn't compassionate people who were taking money that
:26:10. > :26:16.was intended... Cheating the system. Including politicians in that list.
:26:17. > :26:20.Read using expenses claims wrongly. I was always in favour of getting
:26:21. > :26:26.the money, not the fraudsters but to people who really needed it. Where
:26:27. > :26:31.would you get the money from? There is ?4.4 billion, you would just add
:26:32. > :26:35.that to the deficit? We are barely six days after the budget and the
:26:36. > :26:40.government can't even explain where it is getting the money from. John
:26:41. > :26:43.McDonnell set out very clearly what our fiscal rules would be if we get
:26:44. > :26:51.into power in four years and three months' time. But we are six days
:26:52. > :26:56.after the at it and the government can't explain... Would you support
:26:57. > :27:01.ring fencing yet another department, meaning more pressure on other,
:27:02. > :27:06.unprotected departments and especially one with such a huge
:27:07. > :27:09.budget? The ballot in this budget was wrong. Compassionate
:27:10. > :27:15.conservatism is the difference between rhetoric and reality,
:27:16. > :27:18.compassion is the rhetoric, conservatism is the reality. If you
:27:19. > :27:24.look at the budget, it diverted resources away from the poorest in
:27:25. > :27:27.society towards more affluent and it targeted the disabled and those most
:27:28. > :27:32.vulnerable in our society, and that is the reality of the thinking, and
:27:33. > :27:36.as Iain Duncan Smith pointed out, it was a political choice made on the
:27:37. > :27:42.basis that, these are the people who don't work for us. Following the
:27:43. > :27:46.resignation yesterday, his successor said behind every statistic there is
:27:47. > :27:52.a human being and sometimes in government perhaps we forget that.
:27:53. > :27:58.George Osborne forgot that, did he? He would have to ask Stephen Crabb
:27:59. > :28:02.if he was directing his remarks at the Chancellor. I think politicians
:28:03. > :28:06.as a whole can talk in big numbers and forget the individual people
:28:07. > :28:11.behind it. It's important always the present what you're doing in the way
:28:12. > :28:16.it's going to impact on the vulnerable, the needy, individual
:28:17. > :28:24.family and household, not just as statistics. On the minus side, the
:28:25. > :28:29.solution is to drop the capital gains tax changes which could weigh
:28:30. > :28:33.something like ?3 billion... If that was cancelled by the Conservatives,
:28:34. > :28:38.it could send out a positive message and fill that hole. In 2010, George
:28:39. > :28:45.Osborne put up capital gains tax saying that was needed... Actually
:28:46. > :28:50.there is an identity between the mat of money the Chancellor to find from
:28:51. > :28:54.curbing growth of disability benefit and the increase in our conservation
:28:55. > :29:00.to the European Union since the last budget. So we're saving money... So
:29:01. > :29:03.was it to keep Tory MPs on-board? Anyway, we again to hear a bit of
:29:04. > :29:08.the Chancellor in the programme. Thank you both.
:29:09. > :29:11.Now our guest of the day David Laws has written a book
:29:12. > :29:14.in which he spills the beans on life as a Lib Dem minister in government
:29:15. > :29:18.David Cameron probably won't be reading it on his Easter holidays
:29:19. > :29:20.because, among a number of rather explosive claims,
:29:21. > :29:23.it says that Downing Street leant on the boss of NHS England
:29:24. > :29:26.to get him to reduce the amount of funding he said the health
:29:27. > :29:29.Well we'll be talking more about that particular claim
:29:30. > :29:32.in a moment, but first here's Ellie with a look at his account of life
:29:33. > :29:38.David Anthony Laws, Liberal Democrats, 18,865.
:29:39. > :29:42.David Laws was not amongst the lucky Lib Dems who kept their seats
:29:43. > :29:47.He'd been an MP for 14 years and a key figure in the party,
:29:48. > :29:52.particularly in the coalition negotiations in 2010.
:29:53. > :29:53.David was absolutely crucial to that.
:29:54. > :29:57.He was the guy who was forensically obsessing about all of the policy
:29:58. > :30:01.details and he fought like a tiger really for his two
:30:02. > :30:03.and a half billion pound People Premium.
:30:04. > :30:07.I remember the set-to between him and George Osborne across the table.
:30:08. > :30:12.And who knows how that relationship might have developed?
:30:13. > :30:14.He became the Chief Secretary of the Treasury but,
:30:15. > :30:19.17 days later resigned following an expenses scandal.
:30:20. > :30:22.The last two days have been the longest and certainly
:30:23. > :30:29.and remained a close adviser to Nick Clegg.
:30:30. > :30:33.Mostly by e-mail, mostly very, very quietly and covertly and most
:30:34. > :30:37.people wouldn't have known about it, but his analysis was always really
:30:38. > :30:41.close to Nick's thinking right through the coalition.
:30:42. > :30:43.And anyway, a couple of years later, he was back
:30:44. > :30:47.A department headed up by Michael Gove, a man he describes
:30:48. > :30:51.in his book with whom it was possible to disagree
:30:52. > :30:58.By 2013, Michael Gove tried to ban Lib Dem officials from even
:30:59. > :31:03.going into the Department for Education and David at one stage
:31:04. > :31:07.was trying to meet Michael Gove and he refused to meet him,
:31:08. > :31:11.cancelled again, cancelled again, so David went to his office.
:31:12. > :31:14.Michael hid in a toilet to avoid him.
:31:15. > :31:18.David Laws' book appears that if the book on David Cameron's
:31:19. > :31:20.relationship with Boris Johnson, a man whose leadership intentions
:31:21. > :31:24.he's said to be petrified off but maybe the PM could be do worse
:31:25. > :31:28.than take advice from his old Lib Dem colleagues.
:31:29. > :31:31.David Laws played David Cameron in rehearsals for The Leaders Debate
:31:32. > :31:37.in 2010 and I helped him prep for that particular role.
:31:38. > :31:41.He was actually so good at playing David Cameron that he was better
:31:42. > :31:43.than David Cameron was in the first debate.
:31:44. > :31:49.David Laws also claimed that the NHS boss Simon Stephens had originally
:31:50. > :31:52.called on the government to chip in an extra ?15 billion
:31:53. > :31:58.That figure was revised down to a slightly more manageable
:31:59. > :32:02.eight billion after Mr Laws says a certain amount of pressure
:32:03. > :32:09.An insider view that's caused quite a stir now it's got out.
:32:10. > :32:14.And we're joined now by the former Conservative health secretary,
:32:15. > :32:26.You made that claim. How did you find out? Were you at the meeting it
:32:27. > :32:30.was said? I was in Government talking to people who knew what was
:32:31. > :32:33.going on and this is at the end of 2014, Simon Stephens took it on
:32:34. > :32:37.himself, to create an argument about how much parties should put into the
:32:38. > :32:42.NHS in the next Parliament and came up with a figure of about ?30
:32:43. > :32:46.billion. His view was that half of that could come from efficiency
:32:47. > :32:50.savings and the rest needed to come from the Treasury. And then he
:32:51. > :32:54.confronted the Tories in Downing Street, who said the figure of 15
:32:55. > :32:58.billion was not going to be delivered and he ought to come up
:32:59. > :33:02.with a higher assumption for efficiency savings and a lower
:33:03. > :33:07.figure of ?8 billion from the Treasury. It's a serious claim. Did
:33:08. > :33:11.Conservatives in number ten put pressure on Simon Stephens to revise
:33:12. > :33:16.down his figure? In the months running up to the general election,
:33:17. > :33:19.I was not Secretary of State, Jeremy was, and David was not was in the
:33:20. > :33:22.health department, and I do remember him saying anything about this
:33:23. > :33:27.during the general election campaign. You don't think there's
:33:28. > :33:34.any truth? We know what happened. In October before the election, NHS
:33:35. > :33:37.England 's job was to set out... It set out the parameters of the extra
:33:38. > :33:43.cash it might need and actually you can look at it, it said between
:33:44. > :33:48.eight billion and 21 billion. It didn't mention 8 billion in the
:33:49. > :33:52.report. The implication five-year forward view, when you look at the
:33:53. > :33:58.range of increases in NHS budgets, implied comments supplying between
:33:59. > :34:04.eight billion and 21 billion. I am told, Simon Stephens could've... It
:34:05. > :34:06.was a large range, Simon Stephens asked for 8 billion because he
:34:07. > :34:11.believed that was the largest amount the Government was willing to. So
:34:12. > :34:14.they did make it clear, Downing Street, they wouldn't be able to
:34:15. > :34:21.commit more than 8,000,000,007 the end he was given a de facto... I am
:34:22. > :34:26.told Simon Stephens has had this publicly, confirmed the game in the
:34:27. > :34:30.last few days, he asks for ?8 billion. He didn't ask for 15
:34:31. > :34:34.billion. It's interesting what they have said since the revelations of
:34:35. > :34:38.come out of the weekend. What they have put out is what looks like a
:34:39. > :34:41.denial that actually is what politicians and journalists call a
:34:42. > :34:47.non-denial denial, saying no, there's nothing here. We've made it
:34:48. > :34:56.clear it would be between eight and ?21 billion. That figure, though,
:34:57. > :35:00.when was that figure used? I only remember the eight billion and 30
:35:01. > :35:08.billion over a five-year period. You can read it in a five-year forecast.
:35:09. > :35:12.Go back and read it. It's not there. Go back and read and the proportions
:35:13. > :35:18.under a scenario of flat real terms cash, real terms increases per
:35:19. > :35:25.person or maintaining a proportion of GDP. When you look at the NHS
:35:26. > :35:36.today, we know 8 billion is not going to be enough. That, to me is
:35:37. > :35:45.clear. That 8 billion requires you to assume efficiency savings will be
:35:46. > :35:50.three times the average the NHS has achieved in the last parliament.
:35:51. > :35:54.Nobody serious in the NHS believes that that is deliverable. Did you
:35:55. > :36:01.put that figure in your party 's manifesto? We firstly by the way
:36:02. > :36:04.didn't realise until two months after and Simon Stephens published
:36:05. > :36:09.this, what had actually gone on. When we did, we not only committed 8
:36:10. > :36:15.billion, at least 8 billion, secondly, Norman Lamb, the health
:36:16. > :36:21.spokesman at the time, wrote to the other two parties spokespeople,
:36:22. > :36:24.Jeremy Hunt for the Tories, and Andy Burnham for labour, and said, we
:36:25. > :36:29.need a completely independent review of the NHS finances for the next
:36:30. > :36:34.Parliament to make sure it is totally independent and ask up to
:36:35. > :36:39.it. In the end, you also underestimated or didn't know what
:36:40. > :36:44.was going on? Once we were clear the 8 billion was essentially a fixed
:36:45. > :36:49.figure and not a serious figure, we put in our manifesto that we thought
:36:50. > :36:52.we needed a complete review, independent review of what the real
:36:53. > :36:58.efficiency savings should be and that's the answer to this dispute
:36:59. > :37:00.now. Get the Office for Budget Responsibility... No, that's not the
:37:01. > :37:04.answer, the answer to the question is, what the Government and most of
:37:05. > :37:09.the political parties said at the general election, is to take the NHS
:37:10. > :37:14.England own plan and deliver it. My point about 8 billion is the
:37:15. > :37:22.five-year review relies upon efficiency gains, high efficiency
:37:23. > :37:26.gains even the last Parliament, we met what is called the Nicholson
:37:27. > :37:31.challenge. It was a big couldn't do it. The idea the NHS for five years
:37:32. > :37:37.can deliver efficiency gains of 15 billion and end with 22 billion was
:37:38. > :37:41.always a stretch. My point is, it isn't about taking it out of the
:37:42. > :37:47.hands of NHS England. What is important is to give NHS England the
:37:48. > :37:51.backing of the plan. Andrew Lansley, it's worrying, isn't it? This is a
:37:52. > :37:59.row about big figures about the NHS, and you have admitted 8 billion was
:38:00. > :38:04.not going to be enough. It's a real terms increase but, compared to
:38:05. > :38:08.demand, it's going to be incredibly difficult. It's also about trust and
:38:09. > :38:12.how will the voters be able to trust NHS England or the Government if
:38:13. > :38:19.this is the story which comes out after a general election? It's not
:38:20. > :38:22.accurate. But you're also admitting it's not enough so there's a dispute
:38:23. > :38:28.and nobody will know what the truth is. Get the Office for Budget
:38:29. > :38:35.Responsibility, totally independent, to look at these efficiency
:38:36. > :38:39.assumptions and come sensible. I'm not criticising Simon Stephens. He
:38:40. > :38:44.will face questions from the select committee but he will shift things
:38:45. > :38:48.from a situation all the parties were talking about, protection, to
:38:49. > :38:53.getting ?8 billion more but the problem is he didn't get what he
:38:54. > :38:57.really needed, which was ?15 billion and we need now to air that fact
:38:58. > :39:03.that the 8 billion was never realistic to get the NHS funding. Do
:39:04. > :39:07.you think that would work? If this dispute was resolved more money
:39:08. > :39:12.would be given to the NHS? All of us are accountable and Simon Stephens
:39:13. > :39:16.is accountable as Chief Executive to Parliament, not just to Government.
:39:17. > :39:21.The point is, he has set out a plan and it does require funding for
:39:22. > :39:27.social care, and the Government through the council tax increases as
:39:28. > :39:32.given that, efficiency gains, and if they can't be realised on the scale
:39:33. > :39:37.required, of course, the consequence cannot be that the NHS feels it can
:39:38. > :39:41.deliver quality for patients. The answer has to be how are we going
:39:42. > :39:44.to... So you agree those efficiency assumptions are not credible? Thank
:39:45. > :39:47.you both for coming in. Now let's go back to events
:39:48. > :39:50.in Brussels and talk about how the British authorities
:39:51. > :39:51.have responded. The Home Office says this morning
:39:52. > :39:53.it's introduced a heightened There are additional security checks
:39:54. > :39:58.on some flights, and at key ports The Foreign Office has advised
:39:59. > :40:07.Britons in Belgium to stay We're expecting Home Secretary
:40:08. > :40:14.Theresa May to make a statement later, and a short while ago
:40:15. > :40:29.we heard from the Prime Minister. I've just spoken to the Prime
:40:30. > :40:32.Minister of Belgium to give our sympathies and condolences to the
:40:33. > :40:36.Belgian people and we absolutely stand with them at this very
:40:37. > :40:41.difficult time. These attacks in Belgium and they could just a tax in
:40:42. > :40:45.Britain or in France or Germany or elsewhere in Europe and we need to
:40:46. > :40:52.stand together against these appalling terrorists and make sure
:40:53. > :40:53.they can never win. We that was the Prime Minister.
:40:54. > :40:56.We're joined now by the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee
:40:57. > :40:58.Crispin Blunt, and the chairman of the Home Affairs Committee,
:40:59. > :41:04.Welcome to you. Your thoughts after what's happened? Obviously our heart
:41:05. > :41:10.goes out to all the people caught up in this. The important thing is the
:41:11. > :41:13.well rehearsed plans need to go into place and there needs to be a proper
:41:14. > :41:19.assessment here which is being done by COBRA and in Brussels they will
:41:20. > :41:26.be going through their emergency plans in the event of like this,
:41:27. > :41:30.which I have been anticipating. In terms of what action should now be
:41:31. > :41:34.taken, we have heard Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London increasing
:41:35. > :41:39.police presence in the capital and no doubt action will be taken at
:41:40. > :41:46.ports and at airports. How long should that go on for in your mind,
:41:47. > :41:48.Crispin Blunt? That is a matter of the threat assessment and that's
:41:49. > :41:53.what we have intelligence agencies for, to make assessments of what
:41:54. > :41:57.measures are required but the key strategic thing is not to overreact.
:41:58. > :42:03.We are in a war with so-called Islamic State and it remains
:42:04. > :42:06.essential to deprive them of territory from which to organise
:42:07. > :42:11.these kinds of attacks and then you have to have a domestic policy which
:42:12. > :42:17.is then making sure it is more difficult for them to have people in
:42:18. > :42:21.our community who are going to be capable of mounting these kinds of
:42:22. > :42:26.attacks. We will hear from the Home Secretary later on today. She is
:42:27. > :42:32.expected to give a statement. In your mind now, the balance between
:42:33. > :42:35.security and liberty, particularly when legislation on the
:42:36. > :42:39.investigatory Powers Bill is now going through Parliament, does that
:42:40. > :42:44.need to be revisited in terms of tipping the balance further toward
:42:45. > :42:49.security? Not in respect of what happened today. That is something
:42:50. > :42:52.which is, of course, subject to parliamentary scrutiny, Bill going
:42:53. > :42:56.through Parliament. That we hope to hear from the Home Secretary at our
:42:57. > :43:04.committee, due to appear this afternoon. The key issue now is
:43:05. > :43:09.secure in the Borders. Making sure, exactly as Crispin has said, this is
:43:10. > :43:14.well practised. We have the best counterterrorism expert in the UK,
:43:15. > :43:19.there are currently 2000 suspects that they are watching, they will
:43:20. > :43:27.continue to do so and we must offer full support to the Belgian
:43:28. > :43:33.authorities. There is Europol, which we support, which brings together
:43:34. > :43:35.the countries of the EU, there is Interpol, the National Crime Agency
:43:36. > :43:41.and the counterterrorism command, there is no question that we are
:43:42. > :43:45.properly equipped in order to deal with the situation. But, as Crispin
:43:46. > :43:50.said, we need to be vigilant. The public have a role to play in this,
:43:51. > :43:53.they need to feed information, any information they can, but we must
:43:54. > :43:59.never give in to the fear that the terrorists wish to make sure that we
:44:00. > :44:05.suffer from. They want to make sure we are fearful of going about our
:44:06. > :44:08.normal business. So we need to make sure we deal with that. How
:44:09. > :44:14.important our community relations yet again in this country, because,
:44:15. > :44:17.when we look at what happened in Belgium with
:44:18. > :44:20.when we look at what happened in home-grown terrorist, as a number of
:44:21. > :44:22.them were in the previous Paris attacks, and they have been
:44:23. > :44:28.criticised for not dealing with the problem areas, Molenbeek, what is
:44:29. > :44:33.the state of community relations here in trying to deal with our own
:44:34. > :44:37.potential home-grown terrorists? We live in the most multicultural
:44:38. > :44:41.country in the world. We have a Prime Minister who is very keen to
:44:42. > :44:46.make sure that he supports and promotes multiculturalism. Molenbeek
:44:47. > :44:50.I don't think that happen in our country because it would never have
:44:51. > :44:54.reached the stage where the Belgian authorities are now stepping back
:44:55. > :44:59.and staying this is the scent of jihadists, we should have done
:45:00. > :45:03.something similar. I think we are having excellent committee relations
:45:04. > :45:08.and the committee is looking at counterterrorism... It's been
:45:09. > :45:12.criticised. Certainly, people have been critical but we will bring our
:45:13. > :45:16.report out in a measured way, not in response to what happened in
:45:17. > :45:18.Brussels. But by listening to communities and taking proper
:45:19. > :45:23.evidence and then will make recommendations.
:45:24. > :45:31.The Labour Party and SNP abstained on the second reading of the bill,
:45:32. > :45:34.Andy Burnham says it there were key aspect he was unhappy with. The
:45:35. > :45:41.Liberal Democrats called the Labour Party doubtless. What I would say is
:45:42. > :45:46.the challenge is to get things right. We have to be willing to make
:45:47. > :45:54.sure the security services have the powers to investigate communications
:45:55. > :46:00.as they are in today's world, not yesterday's, and target people who
:46:01. > :46:03.are serious risks of committing terrorist activity, but we're also
:46:04. > :46:10.trying to protect freedoms we enjoy, without ending up is a police state
:46:11. > :46:15.where law-abiding citizens... Do you think this bill is doing that? I
:46:16. > :46:21.think when we were in coalition with the Conservatives, there were big
:46:22. > :46:25.tensions over this issue. We took the security concerns very seriously
:46:26. > :46:27.but we were concerned sometimes that the Conservatives were trying to
:46:28. > :46:33.overreach themselves and the powers that they gave... It's not just
:46:34. > :46:37.about legislation, it's about bringing communities with you. If
:46:38. > :46:43.you put communities and the leadership of the Prevent agenda and
:46:44. > :46:46.not make them suspicious, you have a better chance of finding out where
:46:47. > :46:52.people are hiding and what they are doing. For someone to stay three
:46:53. > :46:57.months in Belgium, four months, and not be found, that's something the
:46:58. > :47:01.Belgian police need to look at. We need to make sure we engage with
:47:02. > :47:04.those communities. Are the elements in government that actually want to
:47:05. > :47:11.restrict liberty is too far, to take this issue too far, and will use
:47:12. > :47:15.incidents like this do so? There is a tension on this between those who
:47:16. > :47:20.were required to deliver security and the overall objective of making
:47:21. > :47:25.sure we are delivering our security, to preserve our liberties. So this
:47:26. > :47:29.measure is going through Parliament, it will get proper examination in
:47:30. > :47:32.that light, and the same debates would have taken place within
:47:33. > :47:37.government in bringing the proposals forward. Those are the tensions you
:47:38. > :47:42.have in a free society, and it is essential in fighting this threat
:47:43. > :47:46.that in our society, we do not drive people away from cooperating with us
:47:47. > :47:53.by appearing to be on the wrong side of the fence. In the end they will
:47:54. > :47:56.be whole communities who would be the best ally of the security
:47:57. > :48:06.services, of containing and addressing this threat. Thank you.
:48:07. > :48:09.Now this week sees the start of official campaigning ahead
:48:10. > :48:12.Yesterday we told you about the local elections happening around
:48:13. > :48:15.England, but today here's our guide to the national elections taking
:48:16. > :48:19.Voters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland go to the polls
:48:20. > :48:21.on Thursday 5th May to elect representatives
:48:22. > :48:30.The Scottish Labour party have 38, Scottish Conservatives 15
:48:31. > :48:51.Liberal Democrats 5, Greens 2 and there are 3
:48:52. > :48:54.In Wales, Labour are the largest party in the Welsh Assembly holding
:48:55. > :49:29.Her party - the Democrat Unionists, are currently the largest party
:49:30. > :49:48.in the coalition government - and they hold 38 Assembly seats.
:49:49. > :49:50.Joining me now from Edinburgh is our correspondent
:49:51. > :50:02.So the SNP look like they can't be touched in these elections? That is
:50:03. > :50:06.what the polls suggest at the moment, the SNP are going for an
:50:07. > :50:11.historic third term here but this is going to be an interesting election.
:50:12. > :50:14.Quite different from the ones we have had before, because of the new
:50:15. > :50:18.powers the Scottish Parliament now has, it's all going to be about tax
:50:19. > :50:23.and yesterday Nicola Sturgeon laid out what she's going to do with
:50:24. > :50:28.those new powers, and some interesting news, higher rate
:50:29. > :50:34.taxpayers, on 40p rate, if you are earning more than ?43,000, in
:50:35. > :50:39.Scotland you will be paying ?323 more because Nicola Sturgeon is not
:50:40. > :50:45.passing on the Chancellor's raising of the threshold up to 45,000, they
:50:46. > :50:51.will not go up to rate either, that has been ditched, the basic rate of
:50:52. > :50:56.income tax will be frozen as well. So this election is all about tax,
:50:57. > :51:00.Labour have been saying these proposals, the SNP have bottled it,
:51:01. > :51:04.the Lib Dems have said they are timid because those parties are
:51:05. > :51:08.pressing to raise taxes, an extra penny in the tax, mostly going to
:51:09. > :51:17.education. Do you think this will filter down in enough time to the
:51:18. > :51:20.electorate? This election really has... Scottish politics has changed
:51:21. > :51:27.so much since that date in September 20 14. Everyone coalesces now around
:51:28. > :51:34.the issue of independence, whether you are pro union or pro
:51:35. > :51:39.independence. People will not really be voting for these proposals but
:51:40. > :51:43.how they want to see Scotland in the future, whether that's part of the
:51:44. > :51:47.UK or whether that's an independent Scotland. So these proposals what
:51:48. > :51:50.filter down to people but the debate here has changed, it's all still
:51:51. > :51:53.about the independence word. And BBC Wales' political
:51:54. > :51:55.correspondent Daniel Davies is with us from the Welsh
:51:56. > :52:04.Assembly in Cardiff. Do you expect any surprises in the
:52:05. > :52:10.results of these elections in Wales? As it happens, we had a new batch of
:52:11. > :52:14.polling data and some see the predictions published this morning,
:52:15. > :52:19.showing that Labour's position as the biggest party here looks assured
:52:20. > :52:23.the time being at least, the other parties have just over six weeks to
:52:24. > :52:31.try and change that. But this new golf poll showed that Labour are
:52:32. > :52:36.likely to remain the biggest party. However their support has slid
:52:37. > :52:43.noticeably in Wales, down 14 points on a similar poll in March 2011,
:52:44. > :52:47.just before the last election stop so they would lose some seeds,
:52:48. > :52:52.pulling away from the threshold of 31, which is what they need to form
:52:53. > :53:04.an outright majority here. The Tories and applied country are
:53:05. > :53:08.locked in a battle for second place. Attention turning to what will
:53:09. > :53:14.happen after polling day, will there be a coalition to oust Labour from
:53:15. > :53:18.office? At the moment it's difficult to see circumstances in which that
:53:19. > :53:21.will happen, unlike in Scotland, there is no one big opposition party
:53:22. > :53:28.threatening to displace Labour, the opposition is split ideological, so
:53:29. > :53:34.Labour are looking at a position where they can hold onto power, to
:53:35. > :53:36.take the next election but one, an unbroken period of 21 of a Labour
:53:37. > :53:48.First Minister. Downing Street has just confirmed
:53:49. > :53:53.that one British National is known to have been injured in the bomb
:53:54. > :53:57.attack in the airport on Brussels. Our foreign affairs analyst has
:53:58. > :54:03.joined us. We were talking earlier and discussing the response here, as
:54:04. > :54:06.you said, it will have an impact on the investigatory Powers Bill and
:54:07. > :54:11.could even influence the EU referendum. But the politicians it
:54:12. > :54:17.will all be about security and tightening that, do you think now
:54:18. > :54:19.they will feel in a position that they can extend security further
:54:20. > :54:24.than perhaps would have been palatable a few months ago? No,
:54:25. > :54:33.because it didn't happen here. If it did, they would. The investigatory
:54:34. > :54:36.Powers Bill is pretty tight as it is, they pushed it quite underway
:54:37. > :54:43.already and I did not detect in the discussion you had with various MPs,
:54:44. > :54:47.any real need to push it much further. I think it's going to go
:54:48. > :54:52.through, the civil Liberties people think it has already gone too far,
:54:53. > :54:57.so I think it's good to go through anyway and this particular event
:54:58. > :55:02.isn't good change that. What about the terrorism cells we were talking
:55:03. > :55:06.about at the beginning? Clearly the capability is very much there, how
:55:07. > :55:11.do you deal with that? Is this the way we're going to have to live
:55:12. > :55:16.lives for the future? This is the way, we have been and we will be for
:55:17. > :55:20.many years to come, when David Cameron said it was a generational
:55:21. > :55:28.struggle, that's what he meant, I think Tony Blair said it. How to
:55:29. > :55:31.deal with it, I think it is twofold. The UK police at the moment are
:55:32. > :55:34.appealing to any Brits that were caught up in either of the
:55:35. > :55:40.explosions, can they please send us footage. They are doing that for two
:55:41. > :55:46.reasons, they will go through all the footage, see if they see
:55:47. > :55:49.anything adjusting send it to their Belgian counterparts, and see if
:55:50. > :55:56.there is anyone they recognise in that. I mention that because the way
:55:57. > :56:02.to combat it is through unity, and Corporation. The Belgians are behind
:56:03. > :56:12.the game, they need to get ahead of the game. I always come back to
:56:13. > :56:19.this, like a broken record... Unless you defeat the ideology, you will
:56:20. > :56:24.simply get the next Isis. Do you agree that however much security
:56:25. > :56:26.there is, however good the surveillance, in all these
:56:27. > :56:31.countries, you will never be able to stop it unless you can deal with the
:56:32. > :56:36.ideology? Yes, you have to go to the root of this, the ideology, and not
:56:37. > :56:40.react just to individual instances, whether in the UK or abroad, but
:56:41. > :56:43.understand that this risk is going to be therefore many years and
:56:44. > :56:49.maintain as high a level of security as possible, rather than reacting to
:56:50. > :56:53.events when it's too late. What about the weaponry? I understand it
:56:54. > :56:59.was a sort rifles used in the Paris attacks, and they will put online?
:57:00. > :57:05.-- assault rifles. The Czech Republic has an awful lot of spare
:57:06. > :57:12.Kalashnikovs, AK-47s, you can get them for ?200. Surely that is being
:57:13. > :57:17.dealt with? The dark web, the intelligence of this is trying to
:57:18. > :57:21.get into that... On my phone, I have an app and I can talk to somebody
:57:22. > :57:24.else on it and it scrambles it and as far as I know, this app I have,
:57:25. > :57:28.the intelligence services cannot as far as I know, this app I have,
:57:29. > :57:32.break it yet. You could make not meant about Civil Liberties, but the
:57:33. > :57:39.fact is they can't. -- you could make an argument. Also, this is why
:57:40. > :57:43.the border issue will come back into the equation, these people have been
:57:44. > :57:49.travelling around the Schengen zone... Isn't that the end of the
:57:50. > :57:52.Schengen zone for the foreseeable future, not just because of the
:57:53. > :57:58.attacks but also migrant crisis, it is lent itself to the fear too many
:57:59. > :58:01.people travelling around a big area? Quite clinical when you don't have
:58:02. > :58:06.the benefit we do of the English Channel, it is much more difficult
:58:07. > :58:10.to control, one of the things we have done is to restore entry and
:58:11. > :58:16.exit checks, which will make it easier to monitor people. These are
:58:17. > :58:20.some of the dreadful pictures, look at the damage and devastation at the
:58:21. > :58:29.airport stop there were two explosions, a smaller expression and
:58:30. > :58:36.then tragically, people ran into the direction of the larger explosion --
:58:37. > :58:37.a smaller explosion. We will need eg with these scenes today, I'm afraid,
:58:38. > :58:42.the mayhem in Brussels. That's all for today.
:58:43. > :58:48.Thanks to our guests. The One O'Clock News is starting
:58:49. > :58:53.over on BBC One now.