:00:36. > :00:42.The British head of Europol has warned of new, unprecedented threats
:00:43. > :00:46.posed by the Islamic State group in Europe.
:00:47. > :00:52.He says that up to 5,000 jihadists could be at large
:00:53. > :00:55.across Europe, far more than initially feared.
:00:56. > :01:04.EU ministers meet again today to discuss better
:01:05. > :01:06.intelligence-sharing following the suicide bombings in Brussels
:01:07. > :01:09.Is Britain safer in or out of the EU?
:01:10. > :01:11.The former head of MI6 and the Defence Secretary,
:01:12. > :01:18.Michael Fallon, have very different views.
:01:19. > :01:25.Junior doctors say they won't provide emergency medical care
:01:26. > :01:27.during a two-day strike next month. The Department of Health have called
:01:28. > :01:29.the move desperate and irresponsible.
:01:30. > :01:32.And Jeremy Corbyn says he knows nothing about the Labour list that
:01:33. > :01:36.But David Cameron seems to know who is on it and where they stand.
:01:37. > :01:39.We've got "core support", I think you can include me
:01:40. > :01:49.We've got "core plus", the Chief Whip is being a bit quiet
:01:50. > :01:57.And with us for the duration, Conservative MEP Dan Hannan
:01:58. > :01:59.and Steve Richards from the Independent.
:02:00. > :02:06.Now, first this morning, to Brussels.
:02:07. > :02:10.EU interior and justice ministers are due to hold a crisis meeting
:02:11. > :02:12.today to discuss the need for better intelligence-gathering and sharing
:02:13. > :02:14.in the wake of Tuesday's suicide bombings.
:02:15. > :02:19.Belgian police are stepping up their search for a fourth suspect
:02:20. > :02:22.in the attacks, who survived because his bomb didn't detonate.
:02:23. > :02:24.Let's talk now to our Europe correspondent Chris Morris,
:02:25. > :02:43.Can you give us the latest in terms of the manhunt. At least one person
:02:44. > :02:52.is being sought, that is versus. -- for certain. The man in the black --
:02:53. > :02:58.white jacket and black hat was carrying the largest bomb which only
:02:59. > :03:04.exploded later, after the initial blast. If it had gone off as planned
:03:05. > :03:10.the number of dead would have been considerably higher. We have no ID
:03:11. > :03:15.on him. Nobody has said who that individual might be. There is the
:03:16. > :03:25.possibility of a second suspect taking part in the bombing at
:03:26. > :03:32.Maelbeek Metrocentre, behind me here, good news this morning signs
:03:33. > :03:39.of life getting back together here today. CCTV footage shows another
:03:40. > :03:49.man with a bad standing next to the named suicide bomber Khalid
:03:50. > :03:54.el-Bakraoui, we know that this is a network. It wasn't just an isolated
:03:55. > :04:00.cell. It appears to be the biggest network of this Islamist militancy
:04:01. > :04:09.that Europe has ever encountered. The numbers were larger than people
:04:10. > :04:15.thought. What is being discussed at this meeting about better
:04:16. > :04:20.intelligence sharing. The lodging is -- the logic is from that that there
:04:21. > :04:25.was a failing in intelligence. Some people would say that some countries
:04:26. > :04:29.aren't up to the task, including Belgium, many would say. Some say
:04:30. > :04:35.that countries are reluctant to share the crucial intelligence that
:04:36. > :04:40.they may have. One of the things here in Belgium is the squabbling
:04:41. > :04:45.multilevel nature of government. By pulling information, bits of who is
:04:46. > :04:50.responsible always seems to fall through the cracks. Two things they
:04:51. > :04:54.are going to be talking about at this crisis meeting. Let's not
:04:55. > :04:58.forget that they had a meeting after the Charlie Hebdo attacks last year
:04:59. > :05:03.and the Paris attacks in November. Better sharing of data and
:05:04. > :05:07.intelligence is high on the list. High on the list for the French
:05:08. > :05:12.government has been the sharing of data of airline passengers. Names,
:05:13. > :05:16.and so forth, of who is travelling around Europe. That is becoming
:05:17. > :05:21.entwined in the debate about civil liberties, held up in the European
:05:22. > :05:25.Parliament. There is a feeling that the balance between security and
:05:26. > :05:28.liberty is something democratic societies have dog about when they
:05:29. > :05:36.are under attack like this. Governments feel that there has to
:05:37. > :05:39.be more emphasis on security. -- half to talk about.
:05:40. > :05:42.Yesterday, BBC Panorama took a detailed look at the terror
:05:43. > :05:46.The programme featured the testimony of an accomplice of
:05:47. > :05:48.Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the man who masterminded the Paris
:05:49. > :05:52.Several months before those killings, he told police about how
:05:53. > :05:57.He gave me some shooting lessons by showing me how
:05:58. > :06:05.He made me shoot round by round and in bursts.
:06:06. > :06:11.He trained me to use a handgun and a green
:06:12. > :06:17.He told me it was set on three seconds.
:06:18. > :06:22.He told me to take the weapon and throw the grenade inside.
:06:23. > :06:24.Wait for a small explosion and then to retrieve the targets.
:06:25. > :06:30.I went in, shot three targets, and then the grenade exploded.
:06:31. > :06:32.I was bleeding from the arm and in the leg.
:06:33. > :06:35.He just told me to choose an easy target.
:06:36. > :06:38.Imagine a rock concert in a European country.
:06:39. > :06:41.He specified, the best thing to do is to wait
:06:42. > :06:44.there for the intervention forces and die fighting with hostages.
:06:45. > :06:46.He told me, whoever rushes against the
:06:47. > :06:50.enemy would have to have the reward of two martyrs.
:06:51. > :06:52.And Peter Taylor, one of the reporters from last night's
:06:53. > :07:06.Congratulations on the documentary. A superb piece of work. On the
:07:07. > :07:13.broader picture, we are seeing briefings from the intelligence
:07:14. > :07:22.services that there is a hard-core of 400-600 highly trained, largely
:07:23. > :07:25.in Syria, Islamist working for an Islamic State external command whose
:07:26. > :07:33.job is to come back here and do the kind of thing in Paris and Brussels.
:07:34. > :07:43.Is that your understanding? My understanding is that there are a
:07:44. > :07:50.number of trained jihadis trained in Europe. It is interesting that the
:07:51. > :07:53.ringleader of this network, that network didn't die with him but he
:07:54. > :08:01.told his cousin that he had sent, just before he was killed, that he
:08:02. > :08:06.had sent I think it was 90 jihadists to attack Europe. The evidence also
:08:07. > :08:17.comes from the meeting that we saw was held in October in which it was
:08:18. > :08:25.expressed concern about him and reports that he was planning to send
:08:26. > :08:31.90 trained jihadists to attack Europe. Clearly, the threat is still
:08:32. > :08:36.there from the remnants of the network. And from others that we
:08:37. > :08:41.don't know. I would question the number of 400 or 500 trained jihadis
:08:42. > :08:48.ready to storm Europe but there are numbers and they are causing great
:08:49. > :08:55.concern. It is my understanding that they are deeply trained in weapons
:08:56. > :08:58.and surveillance, countersurveillance and special
:08:59. > :09:04.forces techniques. That is absolutely right. In the clip we
:09:05. > :09:08.have seen, that particular individual was given a crash course
:09:09. > :09:13.because he had a French passport that was about to expire so they
:09:14. > :09:17.wanted to use him with a valid passport, a measure of their
:09:18. > :09:19.sophistication. What makes them so worrying, different from anything
:09:20. > :09:25.else that we have seen is that they are trained, military operators sent
:09:26. > :09:31.to Europe to do this. We have never seen this before. That is the worry.
:09:32. > :09:37.Prior to this, the way I S operated was by inspiring people to carry out
:09:38. > :09:41.lone wolf, lone operator attacks. This is an escalation of the threat
:09:42. > :09:50.and it is extremely serious. The question is, what happens next? When
:09:51. > :09:58.the IRA broke into a devolved cell structure to make it harder to break
:09:59. > :10:03.and what is known within a smaller number of people, am I right
:10:04. > :10:06.thinking that what we have is something between a cell structure
:10:07. > :10:13.and a network. Not quite as enclosed, but not quite a network.
:10:14. > :10:22.My understanding is that they are no longer depending on orders from
:10:23. > :10:32.Syria but to take virginity is as they see them? -- to take
:10:33. > :10:43.opportunities. A network consists of several cells. The IRA cells were
:10:44. > :10:47.run by the England department which is not unlike the external
:10:48. > :10:52.operations department of IS. That network is made of different cells,
:10:53. > :10:58.the attack cells that attacked Paris and Brussels and the logistical
:10:59. > :11:04.cells, Salah Abdeslam, who was arrested last week was in charge of
:11:05. > :11:09.them. You have to have guns, safe houses, rented cars. Nobody knows
:11:10. > :11:14.how many cells there are. The logistical cells are just as
:11:15. > :11:18.important as the attack cells. Once you have identified the logistical
:11:19. > :11:25.cells, which is very difficult, you can begin to identify the attack
:11:26. > :11:33.cells. It is very interesting that within almost a week they were able
:11:34. > :11:44.to get ammunition and explosives to carry out the attacks in Brussels
:11:45. > :11:48.this week. When did it dawn on us, when did we realise that Brussels
:11:49. > :11:59.had become the epicentre of Islamist terrorism? We knew that because
:12:00. > :12:03.Belgian intelligence, Belgian MI5, I viewed the former head of that
:12:04. > :12:10.agency, he told me he gave me endless warnings and to politicians
:12:11. > :12:15.about the growing threat from jihadis and what it involved for
:12:16. > :12:19.Belgium and the rest of Europe. He said the politicians didn't want to
:12:20. > :12:24.know about it. It is a question of stable doors and horses. If you look
:12:25. > :12:30.at the question here, our intelligence services are joined up.
:12:31. > :12:38.It is as a direct result of the 7-7 bombings. Belgium wasn't joined up
:12:39. > :12:44.and that is why there are so many cracks and it is widely IS operators
:12:45. > :12:51.manage to get through. If you want an AK-47, it is not a huge problem
:12:52. > :12:54.in Brussels. Not in Brussels or mainland Europe but very difficult
:12:55. > :13:01.here. If you look at the Shepherd's Bush case, that culminated yesterday
:13:02. > :13:08.when two men were found guilty, the weapon there was a small handgun. We
:13:09. > :13:15.don't see - touch wood- automatic weapons being used here. Very
:13:16. > :13:21.difficult to get them. I think it has been established that the man in
:13:22. > :13:25.your film visited Birmingham and London in the run-up to the Paris
:13:26. > :13:35.attacks and another man, Mohamed Abrini, of Moroccan extraction, a
:13:36. > :13:44.Belgium, he went to France before the Paris attacks and flew back from
:13:45. > :13:48.Birmingham to France, coming to see presumably like-minded people in
:13:49. > :13:55.this country? It is a very confused situation. We found no evidence that
:13:56. > :14:05.he came to the UK. He may have done, he may not. We were convinced that
:14:06. > :14:18.Muhammad Abu Renee, one of his blue tenants did -- one of his Lieutenant
:14:19. > :14:24.Colonel Law did visit the UK. He was a suspect of somebody who may have
:14:25. > :14:29.been Syria. In the course of the interview they looked at his mobile
:14:30. > :14:34.phone. I was told that on his phone were several photographs, one of
:14:35. > :14:42.which, confirmed by the Belgians, was of a football stadium. He might
:14:43. > :14:50.be a football fan. He might have gone to watch a match. But we know
:14:51. > :15:07.what happened in Paris. As far as the network in the UK, we did note
:15:08. > :15:12.that Mohamed Abrini had visited the UK and I don't think he was here on
:15:13. > :15:16.a long weekend vocation. We know that he is still at large and that
:15:17. > :15:22.his brother was killed in Syria. What is your take on this?
:15:23. > :15:28.The first thing is the sheer horror of what happened. The footage from
:15:29. > :15:31.the tube attack was taken by a friend of mine in Brusselslike
:15:32. > :15:36.everybody else who knows that city, my first thoughts were, are my staff
:15:37. > :15:41.OK, and my friends? It is a terrible trauma to go through. I think we do
:15:42. > :15:46.need to look at the security considerations at a European level
:15:47. > :15:49.and at a UK level. We need to think about the indications of EU passport
:15:50. > :15:56.holders, EU nationals, carrying out these attacks, and of how we monitor
:15:57. > :16:00.their entry or exit from the country. We also need to look at how
:16:01. > :16:05.we can deport people that we think are dangerous. One point which the
:16:06. > :16:09.former head of intelligence Sir Richard Dearlove made yesterday in
:16:10. > :16:13.his article was that it is increasingly difficult in the EU to
:16:14. > :16:18.deport people when we know that they are dangerous pass EU judges say
:16:19. > :16:24.that they have rights as EU citizens. We will come onto these
:16:25. > :16:29.issues later on. Steve? Apart from Daniel's attempt to frame it in an
:16:30. > :16:36.argument for out of the European Union, I agree with everything he
:16:37. > :16:40.said. What else can you say, other than utter banality is, and
:16:41. > :16:43.expressing alarm at the Panorama programme which we saw last night
:16:44. > :16:49.got this is not some kind of primitive organisation with anarchic
:16:50. > :16:53.networks. It is clearly coordinated, sophisticated, trained, in a way
:16:54. > :16:57.that I had not realised until your exchange just now, the degree to
:16:58. > :17:04.which they are trained. And it is going to be very, very difficult to
:17:05. > :17:06.contain. If I could counter Daniel's view, it clearly needs a degree of
:17:07. > :17:16.coordination between different countries. We are going to come onto
:17:17. > :17:22.that. Let's not get that argument into everything. Not while we have
:17:23. > :17:25.got Peter here. There are more important issues at stake. Peter, I
:17:26. > :17:32.thank you for coming on today. Graduations again. Table can catch
:17:33. > :17:36.it on the iPlayer. Or on the panorama website. I would recommend
:17:37. > :17:45.that anybody who wants to know what is happening should do so. In some
:17:46. > :17:49.ways it is the Prime Minister's worst nightmare, that security has
:17:50. > :17:53.now become deeply embedded into the European debate because of what has
:17:54. > :17:56.happened in Brussels. It raises the question, inevitably...
:17:57. > :18:03.Here, the former head of MI6 Sir Richard Dearlove says a British
:18:04. > :18:08.exit would lead to important security gains for the UK.
:18:09. > :18:10.That prompted a swift rebuttal from the Defence Secretary,
:18:11. > :18:14.Let's talk now to the BBC's deputy political editor,
:18:15. > :18:24.It seems to me that this is what the Government would have liked to have
:18:25. > :18:28.avoided. What leading Conservative said to me, our worst nightmare is
:18:29. > :18:32.that there is a major terrorist incident while the referendum
:18:33. > :18:37.campaign is going on, and it comes caught up in the debate. That is
:18:38. > :18:41.exactly what has happened. Yet it is. To some extent the Prime
:18:42. > :18:44.Minister should share some responsibility for this. He was the
:18:45. > :18:49.person who began this debate about security in the European Union. In
:18:50. > :18:52.his speech to Chatham House last November, he specifically made the
:18:53. > :18:57.case for staying in the EU, because it helps our security. Is argument
:18:58. > :19:01.was that it helps European countries get together to put sanctions on
:19:02. > :19:06.Russia and negotiate with Iran. But since the attacks in Brussels, that
:19:07. > :19:08.debate has become more acute. Firstly, the question about the free
:19:09. > :19:15.movement of people within Europe and whether or not it endangers the
:19:16. > :19:20.countries in Europe because it is easier for terrorists to move about.
:19:21. > :19:23.But also, the second debate, which is about whether or not intelligence
:19:24. > :19:31.sharing is easier within the EU or not. There is a divide between the
:19:32. > :19:33.MI6 view, which is represented by Sir Richard Dearlove, which
:19:34. > :19:37.essentially says, intelligence sharing is bilateral, it has nothing
:19:38. > :19:41.to do with the European Union. Britain leads on this in its
:19:42. > :19:46.relationship with the United States, and so there will be no change,
:19:47. > :19:50.whether or not we leave or stay. The other viewpoint, which is more MI5,
:19:51. > :19:55.more police, more Home Office, which says, for gritty, on the ground
:19:56. > :19:59.exchanges of information about police operations, sharing passenger
:20:00. > :20:05.lists, that does help EU co-operation. That is where the
:20:06. > :20:09.debate is changing. If there is any sense that the electorate pick up
:20:10. > :20:12.on, begin to think, Europe, there is a security risk to it, then it is a
:20:13. > :20:18.danger for the Government, because it could get the Leave camp into a
:20:19. > :20:38.risk argument. What is the case for arguing, in
:20:39. > :20:42.terms of what we have been talking about, security from terrorism, for
:20:43. > :20:46.saying we are better off out? That we are safer when we control our own
:20:47. > :20:50.borders and can control who crosses them and who can settle here. And
:20:51. > :20:54.that we are safer if we can determine who can be kicked out on
:20:55. > :20:59.security grounds. We agreed when we joined the EU to open our borders to
:21:00. > :21:03.the rest of the European Union. It is now clear that the European Union
:21:04. > :21:06.has in effect opened its borders to the entire world of that was never
:21:07. > :21:14.the original deal. And it has security indications. As we see the
:21:15. > :21:19.Schengen crisis, and the euro crisis, unfolding, the choice we
:21:20. > :21:25.have, is, do we make those problems our problems? Because we stayed out
:21:26. > :21:28.of Schengen, because we kept the pound, we have options. We can stay
:21:29. > :21:33.away from these things and focus on the rest of the world. And Steve,
:21:34. > :21:39.what is the case for saying that our security is better if we remain?
:21:40. > :21:44.Well, as far as this is an issue at all, and I say that because if we
:21:45. > :21:47.were not having a referendum now, and this appalling event had not
:21:48. > :21:52.happened in Brussels, I doubt we would have been having this debate.
:21:53. > :21:55.Nobody would have stood up and said, the reaction to Brussels is that we
:21:56. > :21:59.pull out of the European Union. It is only because we are having this
:22:00. > :22:04.referendum. We would not even be debating it if it was not for that,
:22:05. > :22:08.because it is so peripheral. A lot of the coordination would carry on
:22:09. > :22:12.as normal whether we were in or out. Part of it is so central with the
:22:13. > :22:17.United States. However, as James Landale pointed out, a lot of the
:22:18. > :22:22.nitty-gritty of daily, unglamorous intelligence watching does involve
:22:23. > :22:28.co-operation in different countries. And even though we are out of
:22:29. > :22:32.Schengen, you mentioned this senior ices guy who got to Birmingham
:22:33. > :22:36.recently. Without that freedom in the rest of the European Union, they
:22:37. > :22:42.are still coming here. So if they do not ignore boundaries, we need
:22:43. > :22:48.institution that can coordinate as well. We have had judicial and
:22:49. > :22:53.intelligence co-operation globally, long before they was a European
:22:54. > :22:56.Union. We have it outside the European Union, with our closest
:22:57. > :23:01.allies in the English-speaking democracies. We have Interpol, we
:23:02. > :23:05.have intelligence showing. The point made by Sir Richard Dearlove is
:23:06. > :23:08.critical - frankly we have the best intelligence service in the European
:23:09. > :23:12.Union. It is a bit like the Common fisheries policy. We are
:23:13. > :23:17.disproportionately filling the pot from which the others are drawing. I
:23:18. > :23:25.think we should do that, of course, it is in our security to enhance the
:23:26. > :23:28.security of other EU countries. So do you not therefore accept that
:23:29. > :23:33.this argument in the context of the EU is a red herring? We have had
:23:34. > :23:37.good security, we will continue to have good security. This, oh, we
:23:38. > :23:43.should pull out of the European Union, is really peripheral. My
:23:44. > :23:47.reasoning for leaving the European Union is that it is the only bit of
:23:48. > :23:51.the world which is not experiencing economic growth. That is the bigger
:23:52. > :23:57.argument. This will undoubtedly go on. And we will be exploring some of
:23:58. > :24:00.the other arguments surrounding the EU referendum in a moment.
:24:01. > :24:05.And today it's all about the referendum to find
:24:06. > :24:09.After a lengthy campaign, prime minister John Key has
:24:10. > :24:14.So what did the people of New Zealand choose?
:24:15. > :24:19.b) the existing design with union flag?
:24:20. > :24:21.c) they have decided to share the Australian flag?
:24:22. > :24:25.Or d) a picture of their national bird, the kiwi?
:24:26. > :24:35.And Steve and Daniel will give us the answer a little bit later on.
:24:36. > :24:38.A different referendum at least to talk about!
:24:39. > :24:41.Speaking of questions, all this week we've been asking
:24:42. > :24:43.viewers to send in questions about the EU referendum.
:24:44. > :24:46.Postman Pat has had a busy time, and the office munchkins have been
:24:47. > :24:50.And to answer them, we're joined by Lucy Thomas from
:24:51. > :24:54.She is campaigning to remain, and Daniel Hannan is still here -
:24:55. > :25:03.he's just written a book called Why Vote Leave.
:25:04. > :25:10.Out today, I understand. Let's go through the questions. We have
:25:11. > :25:13.picked a selection. The first one, from British pensioners in Spain.
:25:14. > :25:20.What could happen to our pensions if we left the EU? Batches from Ann and
:25:21. > :25:23.Norman Harrison in Costa Blanca. Well, currently there is mutual
:25:24. > :25:27.recognition of pensions and we simply do not know what would happen
:25:28. > :25:31.if we were to leave. We do not know what the incentive would be for
:25:32. > :25:34.Spain to continue to do that. So I think that would be a huge question
:25:35. > :25:40.for our pensioners in Spain. The other issue facing them is access to
:25:41. > :25:43.health care. At the moment we have a European health insurance card,
:25:44. > :25:47.which allows people living in Spain from Britain to access health care
:25:48. > :25:52.for free. Again, there is no way that that would continue, were we to
:25:53. > :25:57.leave. So I think there are a lot of uncertainties here. And no real
:25:58. > :26:01.reason why a they would continue to be the case, were we to leave. We
:26:02. > :26:07.are talking about 1.5 million Brits living in Spain, I believe. Quite a
:26:08. > :26:12.few of them pensioners. So, uncertainty and risk in terms of
:26:13. > :26:16.their future... On pensions there is absolutely no prospect of any
:26:17. > :26:19.change. By jumping on to health care, Lucie pretty much conceded
:26:20. > :26:25.that. As it is up to the UK Government. Just because you are in
:26:26. > :26:29.Spain or wherever, the UK Government pays and operates your pensions. We
:26:30. > :26:34.have mutual deals with some countries in the EU and some
:26:35. > :26:41.countries outside the EU. And that would continue? Until one side or
:26:42. > :26:44.the other wants to change it. But Lucy Thomas brought up health care.
:26:45. > :26:48.We are paying through our health care system hugely more to EU
:26:49. > :26:51.nationals in the UK then we are receiving via EU nationals in the
:26:52. > :26:55.rest of the EU. There is an immense in balance and I think it would be
:26:56. > :26:59.in the interest of all of those other countries to keep those
:27:00. > :27:03.reciprocal deals going. On pensions, we have to look at what the value of
:27:04. > :27:08.the pension would end up being. Already we have seen the value of
:27:09. > :27:11.sterling going down. Front page of the Financial Times today looking at
:27:12. > :27:17.the potential indications. If our economy were hit by leaving, which I
:27:18. > :27:22.believe it would be... Of course, a lot of those pensioners in Spain
:27:23. > :27:27.were there before Spain joined in 1986, so they know perfectly well...
:27:28. > :27:32.Moving onto the next question, how much does the UK pay into the EU and
:27:33. > :27:40.how much do we receive in subsidies. That is from Adrian Hansell in
:27:41. > :27:45.Exeter. Be honest and transparent. Gross figure, about 19 billion, of
:27:46. > :27:50.which some 9 billion is spent in the UK or handed back. So the net figure
:27:51. > :27:54.is about half. Shouldn't you use the net figure? No, because we do not
:27:55. > :27:59.use the net figure anywhere else. Ask any of your readers what they
:28:00. > :28:02.pay in council tax, and see if they deduct the notional value of the pin
:28:03. > :28:08.collecting. What we pay is what we handover. We do not hand over 19
:28:09. > :28:15.billion, we take the rebate of first. It is not actually a rebate,
:28:16. > :28:19.it is an arrangement. Explain that to the elector. No, we do not send
:28:20. > :28:23.it in the first place. That figure comes from the Office for National
:28:24. > :28:28.Statistics. Rather than twiddling, we have just given the gross and net
:28:29. > :28:32.figure coming from them. Talk about being fair and honest, how much do
:28:33. > :28:40.we actually pay to the EU? If you look between 2010 and 2014, and then
:28:41. > :28:44.15-16, I don't know where you got 19 from, it never even got to that. So
:28:45. > :28:52.absolutely you have to take account of the rebate. , which is 5 billion.
:28:53. > :28:57.So not as much as Daniel was saying. We did all of this on The Sunday
:28:58. > :29:06.Politics. The gross figure, if I can put it that way, for 2014-15, was
:29:07. > :29:11.18.3 billion. And we paid 13 billion because 5 billion of the rebate
:29:12. > :29:18.comes off. It is still enough to give a huge... I just want to hear
:29:19. > :29:23.what your campaign is actually saying, when people say, how much do
:29:24. > :29:28.we pay to the EU? Per household, it is around 206 ?2 per household per
:29:29. > :29:33.year, which breaks down to about 30p per person per day. That is taking
:29:34. > :29:40.into account yes, that rebate and some of the things we get back, for
:29:41. > :29:43.example, investment in our poorer regions. ?20 billion for our farmers
:29:44. > :29:48.are to 2020. Wouldn't we do that anyway? That is an interesting
:29:49. > :29:53.question for Dann, because I'm not sure that everybody on his side of
:29:54. > :29:58.the argument would want to... By your logic, basic income tax is
:29:59. > :30:02.zero, because we get it all back inroads and schools and hospitals.
:30:03. > :30:07.That is what happens when you start treating it like this. Moving onto
:30:08. > :30:11.the next question. What assurances would there be that working people
:30:12. > :30:17.would enjoy the same levels of rights, minimum wager, paid holiday,
:30:18. > :30:23.maternity and paternity pay, Lucy Thomas? In short it depends on what
:30:24. > :30:29.kind of arrangement we get. But it really does mean that these things
:30:30. > :30:35.would be at risk were we to leave. Why would those rights change? Even
:30:36. > :30:40.if any government would want to introduce that. On the other side of
:30:41. > :30:44.the Adi Matt, they spend their whole time complaining about employment
:30:45. > :30:47.rights for people, whether that be maternity rights,
:30:48. > :30:52.anti-discrimination rules - these are things which are guaranteed by
:30:53. > :30:56.EU law. And a future UK Government could please side, were they to wish
:30:57. > :31:00.to do so, to scrap them. But we would have elected that government.
:31:01. > :31:06.Could you imagine any major political party in this country and
:31:07. > :31:11.paining to take away paid holiday? Or wanting to reduce it, because the
:31:12. > :31:16.UK Government, they gold-plated it and added in bank holidays. And that
:31:17. > :31:21.is actually the piece of EU revelation which SMEs in numerous
:31:22. > :31:27.surveys have said is the most costly to them.
:31:28. > :31:38.According to the IFF is, all the savings in the last Parliament saved
:31:39. > :31:43.?35 billion. During that period, the money given to the EU could have
:31:44. > :31:49.wiped out all austerities, even given Lucy's number. We legislated
:31:50. > :31:56.for paid holiday in this country when Chamberlain was Chancellor in
:31:57. > :32:00.1938. We have 90% pay for mothers during maternity leave, which is
:32:01. > :32:05.much higher than the EU. The idea that any of this would be at risk is
:32:06. > :32:12.outrageous scare mongering. Our final question from Alan Carlyle.
:32:13. > :32:18.Will the UK remain 100% sovereignty if we stay in? What makes the EU
:32:19. > :32:23.different from every international body in the world, is that it
:32:24. > :32:28.legislate, creates a new legal order that has precedence over the laws of
:32:29. > :32:33.the member states. We do not have sovereignty as long as we are in the
:32:34. > :32:37.EU. That has been the argument all along. It is what makes the EU
:32:38. > :32:43.different from a co-operative international body which everybody
:32:44. > :32:50.would support. This is quite an emotive issue. I would say that we
:32:51. > :32:57.can decide to leave if we want to, we are sovereign. The real question
:32:58. > :33:01.is whether we control the laws that affect us. It would be interesting
:33:02. > :33:08.to hear what kind of model Dan would want from outside, would you liked
:33:09. > :33:14.to be like Norway and Switzerland who accept the majority of laws from
:33:15. > :33:18.the EU or do they want to accept a trade deal like with Canada which is
:33:19. > :33:22.overseen by an international court and the single market rules we would
:33:23. > :33:26.still have to comply with in order to export are still controlled by
:33:27. > :33:31.the European Court of Justice. Leaving doesn't give you more
:33:32. > :33:36.sovereignty, it gives you less. Coming to Steve Richards, the rows
:33:37. > :33:42.between two other roses. Is it illuminating for the public
:33:43. > :33:50.listening to this? Do you want me to be honest? No. I think the world of
:33:51. > :33:55.figures highlights, I am a sceptic about referendums in general, I
:33:56. > :33:58.would prefer them not to be held. One of the problems with them is
:33:59. > :34:04.that you get a world of figures following everything. I'm not sure
:34:05. > :34:10.now where the figure lies in terms of our contribution and all the rest
:34:11. > :34:14.of it. I don't think that is the way that the argument will be swayed. It
:34:15. > :34:20.will be framing an argument around whether we are better working with
:34:21. > :34:26.others and that democratic institutions or whether we would
:34:27. > :34:32.regain control of our own powers and be liberated. That is the framing of
:34:33. > :34:40.the debate and the economy. I should stress that you are for Remain in
:34:41. > :34:48.this. Oh yes. People do go with the hunches in this. We look across the
:34:49. > :34:51.Channel and there isn't a sense that this is a successful project that we
:34:52. > :34:55.need to be part. There is a world out there where we have friends,
:34:56. > :34:59.links and language and that is where should be re-oriented.
:35:00. > :35:07.Yesterday, the party confirmed it had suspended its former welfare
:35:08. > :35:09.spokeswoman Suzanne Evans for alleged "disloyalty"
:35:10. > :35:17.Ms Evans, who was on Ukip's list for the London Assembly elections
:35:18. > :35:20.in May, went to the High Court at lunchtime in an attempt
:35:21. > :35:22.to overturn the suspension, but lost.
:35:23. > :35:28.She will now be unable to represent her party.
:35:29. > :35:38.Well we did ask Suzanne for an interview, but she declined.
:35:39. > :35:42.Let's listen to her though speaking on the programme last June.
:35:43. > :35:46.I think Nigel himself has not called to leave the Out campaign.
:35:47. > :35:53.I think it might be that a figure to lead
:35:54. > :35:54.the Out campaign comes from outside politics.
:35:55. > :35:57.Would you advise him not to lead the Out campaign?
:35:58. > :36:00.I would advise him to take a very significant part in it.
:36:01. > :36:02.I understand that but as you know, that wasn't
:36:03. > :36:07.Would you advise him for the greater good of the cause,
:36:08. > :36:09.from your point of view, that he shouldn't lead
:36:10. > :36:13.I think Nigel is a very divisive character, in terms of the way
:36:14. > :36:18.But the way he is perceived as is having strong views
:36:19. > :36:30.Joining me now is Chris Woods, a Ukip councillor in Hampshire.
:36:31. > :36:39.Also joining me is the Ukip MEP Diane James. As Suzanne Evans been
:36:40. > :36:51.suspended for criticising another party candidate, once -- who once
:36:52. > :37:03.compared, sexual is to Nazis? She has been criticised -- suspended for
:37:04. > :37:09.a number of reasons. I'm trying to get out why she has been suspended
:37:10. > :37:13.is one of the reasons is that she attacked this particular candidate?
:37:14. > :37:24.You are using the word attacked. She made comments. Criticisms? That is
:37:25. > :37:29.better. She criticised an individual. That individual made
:37:30. > :37:36.statements that reflected his conscience. She then I understand
:37:37. > :37:40.attempted to interfere in terms of his placing on the assembly
:37:41. > :37:47.candidates list and that was a step too far. This candidate is called
:37:48. > :37:52.Alan Craig, he was a candidate for the London assembly elections. He
:37:53. > :37:57.says that he can defend himself and there is evidence... What evidence
:37:58. > :38:04.does he bring to substantiate his claim that he has said that society
:38:05. > :38:13.is being "Crushed under the pink jackboot". You are focusing too much
:38:14. > :38:20.on one incident. I don't know the detail on that. He has already
:38:21. > :38:26.compared, sexual is to Nazis and he now says that we as a society are
:38:27. > :38:32.being "Crushed under the pink jackboot". How would you defend
:38:33. > :38:36.that? In the past, where individuals within Ukip have been accused of
:38:37. > :38:41.making homophobic comments which have brought the party into
:38:42. > :38:45.disrepute those individuals have been dealt with. We have not
:38:46. > :38:49.resorted to a candidate on the London assembly deciding to take
:38:50. > :38:54.matters into her own hands, handling it in a way that did not reflect our
:38:55. > :39:01.Constitution and rules which led to a panel hearing which led to her
:39:02. > :39:12.suspension. Nobody should and can awkward take matters into their own
:39:13. > :39:20.hands. -- can awkward. -- can or could. Why would you have a
:39:21. > :39:27.candidate like that? That candidate would have been dealt with. Suzanne
:39:28. > :39:37.Evans has resolved to suspend her member ship of the party for six
:39:38. > :39:41.months. I don't think there is anything wrong about raising
:39:42. > :39:47.concerns about a candidate who would say such things as you have quoted.
:39:48. > :39:51.I would also have concerns. To suspend somebody for six months is
:39:52. > :39:57.wholly wrong. This was just one example amongst at least four. To
:39:58. > :40:07.highlight just one is starting to mislead will stop it is in the
:40:08. > :40:12.public domain. Give me a quick one. Our second-place candidate David
:40:13. > :40:18.Curtin, effectively, there was an instance of intimidation to get him
:40:19. > :40:26.to stand down. Suzanne Evans intimidated him? Look at the detail
:40:27. > :40:30.to establish whether. They didn't get a vote in London anyway and we
:40:31. > :40:34.should be told by somebody is suspended like this when she is one
:40:35. > :40:40.of our greatest assets. The public would like to see her reinstated.
:40:41. > :40:43.Patrick O'Flynn created a petition yesterday and 1600 people have
:40:44. > :40:52.signed it. Would you get suspended for signing it? I would hope that
:40:53. > :40:57.nobody would go against a High Court judgment with a petition. My
:40:58. > :41:01.understanding is that the petition is to raise money for an appeal
:41:02. > :41:08.which she could have done before the High Court issue was raised. Isn't
:41:09. > :41:14.the truth of it that she has done two things that are anathema to
:41:15. > :41:22.Nigel Farage. She described him as divisive and she has joined the Vote
:41:23. > :41:27.Leave part of the campaign which Nigel Farage things is tantamount to
:41:28. > :41:34.treason? The criticism of Nigel was over a year ago. If Nigel had wanted
:41:35. > :41:37.to, I can tell you that this isn't an issue, just supposing he had been
:41:38. > :41:54.tempted, he could have demoted her at that stage. This is so
:41:55. > :41:59.conjugated. -- complicated. They're with us. We have a process just like
:42:00. > :42:08.any party. She has breached Constitution rules. The very purpose
:42:09. > :42:15.of Ukip was to get a referendum to take is out. We have a referendum
:42:16. > :42:24.but instead of view fighting the referendum, you are like rats in a
:42:25. > :42:33.sack fighting each other. We agree with an awful lot. We want to leave
:42:34. > :42:38.the European Union. We need to when the referendum and work together to
:42:39. > :42:42.do that. Unless Suzanne had gone to the press, nobody would have known
:42:43. > :42:52.about it. I would actually say that this is revenge, hell hath no fury
:42:53. > :42:58.like a woman scorned. How is she? She is lovely. She is a huge asset
:42:59. > :43:07.to the party. Last night she as to come on and defender -- asked me. I
:43:08. > :43:09.said no problem. Now yesterday, junior
:43:10. > :43:12.doctors in England decided to escalate their strike action over
:43:13. > :43:15.the imposition of new contracts. They announced they would not
:43:16. > :43:17.provide emergency care during walkouts on the 26th
:43:18. > :43:20.and 27th of April. The Government described
:43:21. > :43:22.the escalation as "desperate The new contract will increase
:43:23. > :43:29.the basic pay of doctors But it will extend their core
:43:30. > :43:39.working hours, thereby reducing extra payments for working
:43:40. > :43:41."unsociable hours". Automatic pay increases linked
:43:42. > :43:43.to time served will also be scrapped and replaced with a system
:43:44. > :43:45.based on successful The Government says that no junior
:43:46. > :43:51.doctor working within the current But that around 1% of junior doctors
:43:52. > :43:59.who currently work lots of extra However, junior doctors are unhappy
:44:00. > :44:06.that under the new contract, they will be expected to work more
:44:07. > :44:09.weekends and that their salaries After talks broke down in February,
:44:10. > :44:16.Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt decided to impose the contract from August
:44:17. > :44:21.2016 without further negotiation. The BMA has organised a series
:44:22. > :44:25.of strikes over the contract, but this will be the first time that
:44:26. > :44:30.doctors have refused to provide emergency care -
:44:31. > :44:34.they say they have been left with "no choice" by the Government's
:44:35. > :44:36.refusal to come back And with us now is Dagan Lonsdale -
:44:37. > :44:53.a junior doctor working So you are desperate and
:44:54. > :44:57.irresponsible - that is how the Government describes you? I am very
:44:58. > :45:00.sad that we have got to this stage. Part of the problem has been the
:45:01. > :45:04.language which has been used by government. Junior doctors and
:45:05. > :45:07.doctors as a whole would like nothing more than to work with the
:45:08. > :45:11.Government to produce this seven-day NHS. But we cannot do it without a
:45:12. > :45:15.full and frank discussion about how it is going to be funded, about the
:45:16. > :45:20.risks of stretching staff from five days to seven and without a
:45:21. > :45:23.discussion of the effect on patients. Junior doctors have done
:45:24. > :45:26.everything in their power to explain to government that they are
:45:27. > :45:31.concerned about how unsafe these changes are. 10,000 others marched
:45:32. > :45:34.on the streets of London. 98% voted in favour of industrial action.
:45:35. > :45:38.Throughout that period the Government described us as
:45:39. > :45:42.militants, as radicals, and used provocative and emotive language to
:45:43. > :45:46.describe people who want to care for patients, who want the NHS to
:45:47. > :45:50.succeed as a world-class health service. But you just said you and
:45:51. > :45:54.your colleagues are worried about an NHS which will leave residents
:45:55. > :46:00.unsafe. Is it justified to withdraw emergency care and leave those same
:46:01. > :46:04.patients unsafe? Let's be clear about what the action is. On the
:46:05. > :46:08.days of the strikes, for nine hours, the people in the hospital providing
:46:09. > :46:12.emergency care will be the most experienced, highest trained doctors
:46:13. > :46:16.that the NHS has, which is consultants. It is the first full
:46:17. > :46:21.walk-out in the history of the NHS. Many viewers will say, this is a
:46:22. > :46:24.step too far. That you are taking action which will endanger the lives
:46:25. > :46:29.of people, whatever and whoever is in the sidelines waiting to step in
:46:30. > :46:35.of I understand why people will be concerned. I would reiterate, for in
:46:36. > :46:39.my hospital for example there are 300-plus consultants, the highest
:46:40. > :46:43.trained people in the NHS. They are more than capable of providing
:46:44. > :46:46.emergency cover. It will have a knock-on effect on routine
:46:47. > :46:50.operations and outpatient clinics, and for that disruption I am sorry.
:46:51. > :46:55.But David Cameron simply needs to step up and show leadership in an
:46:56. > :46:57.NHS which has record deficits, record levels of A waiting times
:46:58. > :47:02.and doctors leaving the profession. Needs to engage with the
:47:03. > :47:05.professionals on the front line. If this is the situation the Government
:47:06. > :47:10.finds itself in, with junior doctors walking out, emergency care to be
:47:11. > :47:15.withdrawn, and Jeremy Hunt still saying he is going to impose that
:47:16. > :47:19.contract, saying that the junior doctors are holding the country to
:47:20. > :47:23.ransom, is that responsible of a government minister? No government
:47:24. > :47:28.minister will ever win the popularity stakes. Jeremy must know
:47:29. > :47:34.who is going to win in terms of PR. So why is he doing this? The answer
:47:35. > :47:39.is, because it is his job as Health Secretary. Somebody has to be
:47:40. > :47:43.standing up for the consumer. It is less about the popularity stakes, I
:47:44. > :47:48.think what the public want is a solution. But the solution has to
:47:49. > :47:51.involve modernisation, and has to involve a seven-day service. I do
:47:52. > :47:56.not think the two sides are impossibly far apart, I think it is
:47:57. > :48:00.regrettable that they are taking this extraordinary step of a full
:48:01. > :48:03.right. Yes, we need a solution but we know from the Public Accounts
:48:04. > :48:07.Committee that the seven-day NHS is on costed, as no risk assessment and
:48:08. > :48:12.no workforce planning. We need to work towards it together. A solution
:48:13. > :48:16.is what people would like. We have heard that there has not been a
:48:17. > :48:19.willingness to negotiate. But actually the BMA has not been
:48:20. > :48:23.willing to negotiate, either. They never want to come on and speak to
:48:24. > :48:26.us about their position and they refuse to negotiate over Saturday
:48:27. > :48:31.pay. Are they leading junior doctors down a blind alley? Partly, in the
:48:32. > :48:35.sense that I am sure the Government is right to want seven-day
:48:36. > :48:40.provision. And you say you want seven-day provision as well. The
:48:41. > :48:46.issue is partly to do with resources. I thought it was very
:48:47. > :48:50.interesting in David Laws' book last week, he revealed that Simon
:48:51. > :48:53.Stevens, who runs NHS England, wanted George Osborne to commit to
:48:54. > :48:59.?16 billion of additional NHS spending. Andrew Lansley disputed
:49:00. > :49:02.that. From the conversations I have had with people at NHS England, it
:49:03. > :49:06.rings true, that they think that is the kind of money required. Well
:49:07. > :49:10.Jeremy Hunt is white to push for this, most of us now accept that
:49:11. > :49:15.weekends, you work, and the rest of it. I know you say you do already.
:49:16. > :49:18.But there is a big friends, anyone who has been to hospital at
:49:19. > :49:23.weekends, you must accept. But the Government has moved, offering
:49:24. > :49:28.higher pay and compensation. Obviously, it is partly an issue of
:49:29. > :49:33.resources, trying to spread execs existing staff around seven days.
:49:34. > :49:38.There are bound to be resources issues. And so they have got to find
:49:39. > :49:43.more money for this service. Proportionately less money is going
:49:44. > :49:48.into it than Germany, France, Italy. But they are right to push the
:49:49. > :49:51.seven-day provision. It is obvious, people need operations and all the
:49:52. > :49:56.rest of it at the weekend. When we think back to the miners' strike,
:49:57. > :50:02.and how long it went on for, and how desperate it became, is this the
:50:03. > :50:08.same? Not on that scale. That was totemic in capital letters. With
:50:09. > :50:13.every respect to your cause, it is not on anywhere near that scale.
:50:14. > :50:15.David Cameron when he had his first conversation with Jeremy Hunt as
:50:16. > :50:21.Health Secretary, said, get health of the news, Beacon silly tree. He
:50:22. > :50:26.has not done that. He did up until about the election. --
:50:27. > :50:33.all-conciliatory. I don't think anyone could claim that is the case
:50:34. > :50:37.now. If the Saturday pay issue was resolved, would you go back to work?
:50:38. > :50:42.I don't think this is about pay at all. But there have been doctors who
:50:43. > :50:46.have come on and said it was about Saturday pay and the hours and the
:50:47. > :50:49.compensation you would get for working Saturdays. That's why it is
:50:50. > :50:54.this feeling that it is wider than just the issue of pay and
:50:55. > :50:57.conditions? I understand that is the narrative that the Government want
:50:58. > :51:03.you to believe. Junior doctors have had a ten-15% real terms pay cut in
:51:04. > :51:06.the last few years, and had our pensions slashed twice. This is
:51:07. > :51:10.about the safety of our working conditions. It is really important
:51:11. > :51:14.that we have a contract which appropriately recognises the work
:51:15. > :51:19.that people do in the acute services in anti-social hours. Not a lot of
:51:20. > :51:23.people understand that this contract covers 56 specialties, from acute
:51:24. > :51:27.medicine down to dermatology. If you wrongly set out the contract, then
:51:28. > :51:30.you will have an exacerbation of the workforce crisis which we already
:51:31. > :51:35.have, with one in three GPs due to in the next five years, one in three
:51:36. > :51:36.training places in the north of the country empty, and doctors missing
:51:37. > :51:40.from rotors up and down the country. Now are you part of the core group,
:51:41. > :51:45.or maybe core group plus? Neither, apparently,
:51:46. > :51:53.does Jeremy Corbyn. But here's our Giles to explain
:51:54. > :51:56.the Labour MP loyalty list that PMQs should have been
:51:57. > :52:06.a joy for Labour. A cabinet minister resigned
:52:07. > :52:12.amid severe criticism of a government policy,
:52:13. > :52:14.a budget U-turn, EU referendum divisions,
:52:15. > :52:17.more big targets for an opposition Jeremy Corbyn asked, and rightly so,
:52:18. > :52:27.but was hamstrung by a spreadsheet. We've got core support,
:52:28. > :52:31.I think you can include me in that We've got core plus -
:52:32. > :52:40.the Chief Whip is being a bit quiet Mr Speaker, I thought
:52:41. > :52:45.I had problems! He does - but this list
:52:46. > :52:47.of Labour MP loyalty, we think written some months ago,
:52:48. > :52:51.was apparently not the work of Mr Corbyn and his team -
:52:52. > :52:54.its appearance now has his
:52:55. > :52:57.supporters are suspicious of why it has just
:52:58. > :52:59.appeared, but its effect David Cameron should have been
:53:00. > :53:09.crying over his lunch today. We've had a disastrous week
:53:10. > :53:11.for the Conservatives. We've seen
:53:12. > :53:14.George Osborne's political career effectively ended and we've seen
:53:15. > :53:16.a civil war erupt within somehow, this list has
:53:17. > :53:19.appeared and has taken the focus completely off
:53:20. > :53:21.the Conservatives again and let David Cameron completely
:53:22. > :53:23.off the hook. That really isn't acceptable
:53:24. > :53:25.and shouldn't have happened. The hostile, you shout,
:53:26. > :53:32.hostile shout, that's right. Neutral, but not hostile,
:53:33. > :53:35.you have to be quiet. It shouldn't have existed
:53:36. > :53:52.in the first place. The fact that it was
:53:53. > :53:54.then, by all accounts left in a bar for people to find,
:53:55. > :53:57.I think, is absolutely Every single Labour MP in the Palace
:53:58. > :54:01.of Westminster today has been Everybody is saying,
:54:02. > :54:05.I'm on a different place in that list to where people
:54:06. > :54:07.think I am on the list. And I'm afraid it really
:54:08. > :54:10.does speak to the heart of the professional effort
:54:11. > :54:12.which we are seeing now Now, we don't know
:54:13. > :54:17.who made this list. We also don't know whether
:54:18. > :54:22.it was made to order. It could have been done
:54:23. > :54:24.of somebody's own bat. But he is one thing we should
:54:25. > :54:27.probably all agree on. If you're going to
:54:28. > :54:32.make a list of names of MPs who are hostile
:54:33. > :54:34.to the leadership, probably don't, even though it wasn't
:54:35. > :54:50.this one, leave Good idea never to leave anything in
:54:51. > :54:55.the pub, I think! Do you know who drew up the list, Steve?
:54:56. > :55:03.Jeremy Corbyn's office says that he and his office had nothing to do
:55:04. > :55:06.with it. Do you think that is true? If I were Jeremy Corbyn, I would
:55:07. > :55:11.want it and I would find it very useful. Rather than be
:55:12. > :55:15.embarrassed... It is a disaster that it turned up, but I think it is a
:55:16. > :55:18.sign of new professionalism that they are finding out what the state
:55:19. > :55:28.of their Parliamentary party really is. If you were leader of this
:55:29. > :55:34.Parliamentary party, which is inconstant insurrection and fuming
:55:35. > :55:38.mood against you, you would want to know every... I am told quite a lot
:55:39. > :55:43.of it is inaccurate. It is out of date, I think. Some of those who are
:55:44. > :55:47.there as core loyalists are fuming because they have been scheming
:55:48. > :55:52.against him! One MP said he is not on any of the lists and he says he
:55:53. > :55:56.does not know if this means a first-class ticket to Havana or the
:55:57. > :56:02.train to the Gulag. Yes, very ominous not to be there at all! Much
:56:03. > :56:07.safer to be in the really hostile list or whatever! Look at some of
:56:08. > :56:11.the names - former shadow cabinet ministers, Caroline Flint, hostile,
:56:12. > :56:20.Chris Leslie, hostile. Chuka Umunna, hostile. I mean, in a sense it is
:56:21. > :56:23.accurate, isn't it? I would say that is pretty accurate. I don't think
:56:24. > :56:27.they would deny it. This is the longer version of what we have just
:56:28. > :56:39.had with Ukip. I just want to put on the record, Susanne Evans is a great
:56:40. > :56:44.asset to the Leave campaign. She is optimistic and cheerful. Can I say
:56:45. > :56:47.one thing about Labour? I need to bring Steve back in. He is the
:56:48. > :56:52.Labour expert here. I don't know about that. There is a darker side
:56:53. > :56:57.to some of this. We had a man recently on the programme, who had
:56:58. > :57:05.briefly rejoined Labour from the far left, who talked about the Jewish
:57:06. > :57:09.question, Mr Downing. The Jewish question, it was like a real
:57:10. > :57:15.conspiracy stuff. We have somebody called Marlene Ellis, a Labour Party
:57:16. > :57:20.member, momentum activist, who has said that Chuka Umunna is, quote,
:57:21. > :57:27.not politically black. Extraordinary. Who is this woman?
:57:28. > :57:33.Marlene Eller, a party member and a momentum activist. Not politically
:57:34. > :57:36.black. What this whole context has done, by the way, I find it much
:57:37. > :57:39.more interesting looking at the governing party that this stuff,
:57:40. > :57:44.because you just go around in circles. What this whole thing has
:57:45. > :57:48.done is, you know, brought back to the four... I saw your interview
:57:49. > :57:53.with that guy who has now been expelled. Again. And I read some of
:57:54. > :57:58.the stuff. Part of the problem is that they cannot write, actually.
:57:59. > :58:04.You have to wade your way through it. 15 seconds. I think this is an
:58:05. > :58:09.absolute tragedy. We need a serious opposition. We have had a decent
:58:10. > :58:13.radical tradition in this country. For us to be without an opposition
:58:14. > :58:17.now is betraying the people. Moral ground! High
:58:18. > :58:20.There's High just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:21. > :58:23.The question was about the referendum to find a new flag
:58:24. > :58:30.c) they will share the Australian flag?
:58:31. > :58:35.So, Steve and Dan, what's the correct answer?
:58:36. > :58:40.I hope they have gone for the Kiwi. No, they have stayed with the
:58:41. > :58:45.existing design! And there it is, they kept with a version of ours.
:58:46. > :58:49.The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:50. > :58:53.I am on BBC One tonight with Michael Portillo,
:58:54. > :58:55.Chuka Umunna, Isabel Hardman, Maajid Nawaz, Alfred "Pee Wee" Ellis
:58:56. > :59:00.and Fred Wesley, joining me on This Week from 11.45.