:00:38. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Jeremy Corbyn's made his first major intervention in the EU referendum
:00:44. > :00:46.campaign with the socialist case for staying in.
:00:47. > :00:50.The Labour leader still isn't the European Union's biggest fan,
:00:51. > :00:52.but he says his party overwhelmingly backs membership
:00:53. > :01:00.So will his intervention give a boost to the campaign to remain?
:01:01. > :01:03.The government's plans for expanding academy schools have run
:01:04. > :01:07.We'll ask one former Education Secretary if ministers
:01:08. > :01:14.Is being Chancellor the trickiest job in Whitehall?
:01:15. > :01:17.We've got the latest in our series looking at how to do
:01:18. > :01:24.And Ellie's been to meet the latest addition to the diplomatic corps -
:01:25. > :01:26.but like many experienced politicians, he's already
:01:27. > :01:35.Palmerston, what are your thoughts on Britain leaving the EU?
:01:36. > :01:51.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:52. > :01:53.of the programme today is the veteran documentary
:01:54. > :01:57.He's profiled leading political figures from Edward Heath onwards,
:01:58. > :01:59.and if it's worth talking about in Westminster or Whitehall,
:02:00. > :02:07.First today, let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn,
:02:08. > :02:09.who this morning has been making the case for staying
:02:10. > :02:15.It's been a while coming and it wasn't exactly a passionate
:02:16. > :02:18.love-letter to the EU, with a series of caveats
:02:19. > :02:21.about the need for socialist reforms, but he argued
:02:22. > :02:24.that it was better to stay in and fight for change.
:02:25. > :02:27.Of course he voted against membership of the common market
:02:28. > :02:29.at the referendum in 1975, but we're told he's
:02:30. > :02:42.So will it give the In campaign a much-needed shot in the arm? This
:02:43. > :02:44.was Mr Corbyn speaking earlier. The move to hold this referendum
:02:45. > :02:47.more been more about managing divisions in the Conservative Party
:02:48. > :02:49.but it's now a crucial democratic opportunity for people
:02:50. > :02:52.to have their say on our country's future and the future
:02:53. > :02:59.of our continent as a whole. As Alan explained,
:03:00. > :03:01.the Labour Party's overwhelmingly for staying in because we believe
:03:02. > :03:05.the European Union has brought investment, jobs, and protection
:03:06. > :03:09.for workers, consumers and the environment and offers
:03:10. > :03:12.the best chance of meeting the challenges we face
:03:13. > :03:18.in the 21st-century. Labour is convinced that a vote
:03:19. > :03:31.to remain in is in the best Jeremy Corbyn there. Michael
:03:32. > :03:35.Cockerell you covered the 1975 referendum and many senior Labour
:03:36. > :03:41.politicians voted against membership of the EEC as it was then. Jeremy
:03:42. > :03:46.Corbyn has said he has been on a journey, are you convinced by his
:03:47. > :03:50.conversion? It has been a rapid conversion, he was talking about the
:03:51. > :03:59.EU as brutal last September, to do with Greece. Many of the people have
:04:00. > :04:02.made the journey the opposite way from 1975, people like Norman
:04:03. > :04:08.Tebbit, who were in favour of us staying in, becoming a great
:04:09. > :04:13.sceptic. He is doing an unusual journey. Clearly it was something I
:04:14. > :04:20.think when he became leader he thought that this was a battle he
:04:21. > :04:24.could not win. The whole of the Labour Party voted unanimously... He
:04:25. > :04:29.is doing it through gritted teeth? I am not sure there is absolute
:04:30. > :04:32.passion and conviction in this conversion but you do what you have
:04:33. > :04:38.to as a leader. I thought he made rather a good speech in the
:04:39. > :04:43.wonderful art deco building of Senate house, the headquarters of
:04:44. > :04:48.London University, and he made a speech with a number of clever jabs
:04:49. > :04:52.at David Cameron. It is ironic that number ten had been putting great
:04:53. > :04:57.store by this speech, hoping because of how the polls had tightened, that
:04:58. > :05:03.Jeremy Corbyn could help it swing their way so there are just as many
:05:04. > :05:08.people who are politically fluid into what they want and whose side
:05:09. > :05:10.they are on. We will talk more about how vital his role may
:05:11. > :05:16.Well, let's see now if Mr Corbyn has convinced one Labour Eurosceptic,
:05:17. > :05:20.the MP Graham Stringer, who's campaigning to leave the EU.
:05:21. > :05:26.Welcome to the show, are you disappointed with Jeremy Corbyn?
:05:27. > :05:30.Disappointed but not surprised. I have talked to him and it was clear
:05:31. > :05:36.he has decided as leader of the Labour Party to go in for party
:05:37. > :05:40.management and management of his relationships with the trade unions
:05:41. > :05:45.rather than his core beliefs. Every time I voted against these issues,
:05:46. > :05:50.he has been in the same lobby as I have been and I have no reason to
:05:51. > :05:53.believe he has changed his core beliefs. You don't think he has
:05:54. > :05:59.changed his mind coming is doing this through gritted teeth as I
:06:00. > :06:04.said? I think it is about 40 management, he can fight on only so
:06:05. > :06:07.many grounds. He is obviously in a minority in the parliamentary Labour
:06:08. > :06:11.Party, the majority of the trade unions take this view and I think he
:06:12. > :06:16.thinks it's not worth the fight but it's dangerous and a mistake, what
:06:17. > :06:20.he's doing. I don't think Labour voters, when you look at them and
:06:21. > :06:24.those who left us at the last two elections, many of them are
:06:25. > :06:30.Eurosceptic and I don't think they appreciate an argument that in
:06:31. > :06:34.effect support the Conservative Prime Minister and Chancellor who
:06:35. > :06:40.are one of the main causes of austerity and cuts in this country.
:06:41. > :06:45.If you feel he would be happier in your camp, could you have done more
:06:46. > :06:52.to persuade him to be true, as you believe, to his own beliefs? I think
:06:53. > :06:56.a situation he was in, he made that decision under pressure from the
:06:57. > :06:59.Shadow Cabinet and the trade union leadership just after he was
:07:00. > :07:05.elected. When he had made that decision, he was going to stick with
:07:06. > :07:10.it. I'm sad about it and I think it is a mistake for the Labour Party,
:07:11. > :07:18.which has a history of getting the European Union wrong. I tried to
:07:19. > :07:22.persuade Ed Miliband, if we had gone for a referendum at the last
:07:23. > :07:26.election, we would not have a majority Conservative government. We
:07:27. > :07:29.undoubtedly lost 12 or 14 seats because Labour voters who wanted a
:07:30. > :07:36.referendum voted Conservative or Ukip. Number ten are counting on
:07:37. > :07:40.Jeremy Corbyn, ironically from their perspective, to help them win this
:07:41. > :07:44.referendum because arguably trust in David Cameron has been damaged to
:07:45. > :07:51.some extent recently. Do you think he will be a forceful weapon for the
:07:52. > :07:56.remain side? I certainly hope not. I think the media know and most Labour
:07:57. > :08:02.voters know that his heart is not in this campaign. The argument he is
:08:03. > :08:06.using a quite poor about trying to form an anti-austerity allowance in
:08:07. > :08:12.Europe when the euro is one of the main causes of deflation and
:08:13. > :08:16.austerity across the continent which is causing huge unemployment. As he
:08:17. > :08:21.has said, brutality against the workers in Greece. That has a
:08:22. > :08:25.knock-on effect in this country. I think he will not persuade Labour
:08:26. > :08:30.voters to vote the support a Conservative Prime Minister and
:08:31. > :08:34.Chancellor of the Exchequer who are wreaking havoc on our communities.
:08:35. > :08:35.It is dangerous for the Labour Party to take this position. Thank you
:08:36. > :08:36.very much. Well, we're joined now
:08:37. > :08:38.by Chris Bryant, he's a former Europe minister and current member
:08:39. > :08:50.of Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. Jeremy Corbyn's heart is not in this
:08:51. > :08:55.campaign, as Graham Stringer said, he will not be able to persuade
:08:56. > :09:01.Labour voters to vote for remain or come out at all. I couldn't hear
:09:02. > :09:06.much of what Graham was saying but I guessed what he was going to say
:09:07. > :09:08.anyway. Most of the Brexit campaigners have been desperate to
:09:09. > :09:13.be disappointed by anything that comes along. If you look at Jeremy
:09:14. > :09:18.Corbyn from 1975 until the leadership campaign, his track
:09:19. > :09:28.record has been sceptical of the EU and not a fan. The point I was going
:09:29. > :09:31.to make was that... The Labour Party movement has been phenomenally
:09:32. > :09:35.united on this issue apart from a couple of small trade unions, they
:09:36. > :09:39.nearly all have had vote and decided to stay in. Unison with the latest
:09:40. > :09:44.this week, people thought they might have gone the other way. Party
:09:45. > :09:51.policy has been united on this and for me, I have all been passionate
:09:52. > :09:56.pro-European, I come to that with the particular animus and I think
:09:57. > :10:01.Wales in particular, in my constituency, we would be stuff if
:10:02. > :10:06.we were to lose. I think it is important that Jeremy and other
:10:07. > :10:10.sceptics, historic and genuine sceptics, have been on a journey and
:10:11. > :10:15.changed their mind. I honestly think that people who come on TV and says
:10:16. > :10:18.Jeremy doesn't believe a word of this, I don't think that's Jeremy.
:10:19. > :10:23.He doesn't say things he doesn't believe, that is the reason he won
:10:24. > :10:27.the leadership of the Labour Party. If you look at what he has said
:10:28. > :10:31.until very recently, it does not sound authentic and it does not
:10:32. > :10:37.sound like this conversion is heartfelt. He voted against the
:10:38. > :10:39.Lisbon Treaty in two dozen eight, during the leadership campaign he
:10:40. > :10:43.refused to rule out campaign to leave the EU -- 2008. He talked
:10:44. > :10:47.about Greece as we heard from Michael Cockerell but what I'm
:10:48. > :10:55.saying is the journey... I understand, you think he's lying. I
:10:56. > :11:00.think it is unusual for the BBC to do that but I think we should
:11:01. > :11:07.take... We are using the facts of what he has said. Am I allowed to
:11:08. > :11:11.say anything? You accuse me of saying I don't believe him but some
:11:12. > :11:15.of your colleagues don't so how will it persuade Labour voters if some of
:11:16. > :11:19.your own party don't question we have been on the doorstep a great
:11:20. > :11:24.deal. In my constituency we have assembly elections for the Welsh
:11:25. > :11:29.assembly and a lot of Labour voters say, what do you think about the
:11:30. > :11:33.referendum, because they are genuinely uncertain. I think for
:11:34. > :11:37.some of them, be strong, passionate argument I would want to make about
:11:38. > :11:43.how we can tackle the big issues like climate change, international
:11:44. > :11:49.terrorism and crime and so want without being part of the EU, those
:11:50. > :11:54.carry weight with them but for some others it is Jeremy's version which
:11:55. > :11:58.is different. It is a different argument from mine but in the end it
:11:59. > :12:03.comes down to a simple thing which is on the Labour Party membership
:12:04. > :12:07.card, that we achieved far more by a common endeavour than by going it
:12:08. > :12:12.alone. Has he left it too late? If he is going to be so persuasive, it
:12:13. > :12:20.is late in the day, we only have ten more weeks. We have ten more weeks!
:12:21. > :12:23.To be honest, we are very focused on the assembly election in my
:12:24. > :12:30.constituency so much as I would like to talk about Europe every day until
:12:31. > :12:33.the 23rd of June because I feel very passionately about it, I think it is
:12:34. > :12:39.important you have all those different wings of the Labour Party
:12:40. > :12:45.barbed a tiny marginal element, arguing in favour of remaining in --
:12:46. > :12:49.apart from a tiny element. I don't like David Cameron, I would like to
:12:50. > :12:55.get rid of him as pie ministers tomorrow or last year but... --
:12:56. > :13:00.Prime Minister. I'm not sharing a platform or not it would come and
:13:01. > :13:04.making a different argument. When we came to power in 1997, one of the
:13:05. > :13:08.things felt strongly here was that we wanted to sign up to the social
:13:09. > :13:14.chapter. It doesn't quite exist in the same way now but it guaranteed
:13:15. > :13:18.workers rights, it enhanced LGBT writes, a whole series of things,
:13:19. > :13:21.and we did that in 1997 and the Tories have been trying to step
:13:22. > :13:27.aside from that and that is one of the reasons we want to stay in. How
:13:28. > :13:33.enthusiastic did you think Jeremy Corbyn sounded in that speech? Did
:13:34. > :13:37.you think it was full throttled enthusiasm and warmth? You have me
:13:38. > :13:40.on that because I was speaking in the House of Commons throughout the
:13:41. > :13:44.speech so I have not heard or even read the speech. I have books to
:13:45. > :13:49.Jeremy about this issue and I know he believes that Britain will
:13:50. > :13:53.achieve best and Labour constituencies will do best and the
:13:54. > :13:58.people that Labour wants to represent with the best if we remain
:13:59. > :14:02.in the European Union. In terms of the polls, which are very tight, and
:14:03. > :14:08.we know they can be wrong, you say there are ten weeks to go, if Jeremy
:14:09. > :14:15.Corbyn is going to save the day come do you expect to see him out between
:14:16. > :14:20.now and the 23rd of June, even ahead of assembly elections, campaigning
:14:21. > :14:24.vigorously for remain? He will be campaigning for In. When will we
:14:25. > :14:29.hear from him again? You clearly have a mindset on this, you clearly
:14:30. > :14:34.have a mindset. Why don't you just take him at his word? He has said he
:14:35. > :14:37.wants us to stay in, the whole of the Labour movement apart from a
:14:38. > :14:42.tiny proportion want us to stay in the European Union and we do so on
:14:43. > :14:48.Labour arguments, not Tory arguments. If you take a single
:14:49. > :14:52.issue on climate change. How can you possibly try to pretend this country
:14:53. > :14:57.is a hermetically sealed unit? How can you do it on international
:14:58. > :15:00.crime? The people campaigning to leave don't like the European Arrest
:15:01. > :15:05.Warrant... You're making the argument for staying in. So is
:15:06. > :15:13.Jeremy. I'm asking if you have full faith and trust? Yes, I have full
:15:14. > :15:16.faith and trust. Until recently he was hugely sceptical. I have not
:15:17. > :15:21.seen the whole speech, I talked to him before he made it, yesterday and
:15:22. > :15:25.the day before, he has described a journey he has been on and there are
:15:26. > :15:30.people in this country who are passionate like me and have -- have
:15:31. > :15:35.always been convinced but there are 19 to 25% of the population who are
:15:36. > :15:39.still wondering which way to go and I think Jeremy's voice will carry a
:15:40. > :15:43.great deal of weight with a significant proportion of those.
:15:44. > :15:51.Do you think Jeremy Corbyn will get the Labour vote out? Because now
:15:52. > :15:56.there are reports saying that will be the critical factor and could
:15:57. > :16:00.affect the result. It could well be the article factor but there's also
:16:01. > :16:05.another factor from his speech. Because he said were the reasons has
:16:06. > :16:11.changed his mind is because he now sees a reformed EU, if they can do
:16:12. > :16:16.it in the way he wants, as furthering the cause of socialism,
:16:17. > :16:20.so if you voted to stay in, you will further the cause of socialism and
:16:21. > :16:25.further Jeremy Corbyn's career, so it could actually be
:16:26. > :16:32.counter-productive. You get Labour votes but you switch off Tories and
:16:33. > :16:35.people who are inclined to vote for Ukip. That's always a difficulty in
:16:36. > :16:38.a referendum with people from different prodigal parties were
:16:39. > :16:43.different mindsets, coming with different arguments, but all I would
:16:44. > :16:49.say is, even the big prodigal parties, we know they are a
:16:50. > :16:53.coalition, the Tory parties, the first past the post system, but the
:16:54. > :16:57.truth is, a series of different parts if you like that are leading
:16:58. > :17:01.to the same conclusion and that's why I think Jeremy's speech today
:17:02. > :17:07.are so important because he's not, like me, I couldn't make my speech
:17:08. > :17:13.but we are saying the same thing and saying it to Labour voters. One
:17:14. > :17:17.thing about Jeremy and the speech. Not his body language but his
:17:18. > :17:22.clothes, he was clearly making a speech to the Labour Party because
:17:23. > :17:26.he was wearing his old light coloured cream jacket. You have just
:17:27. > :17:34.been elevated to our sartorial correspondence. Who are you speaking
:17:35. > :17:39.to today? I'm wearing a dark suit. Seeing as you accuse me of having a
:17:40. > :17:43.fixed mindset before this interview started, very unfairly, she said,
:17:44. > :17:49.why have anti-EU articles been deleted from Jeremy Corbyn's
:17:50. > :17:53.website? I have no idea. It's disappeared from this website. I
:17:54. > :17:57.have absolutely no idea and you know perfectly well I have no idea. I
:17:58. > :18:04.can't even challenge you on whether its true what not. I have absolutely
:18:05. > :18:09.no idea. Would you do that, delete things? There are things in my past
:18:10. > :18:15.I would love to delete I'm simply not going to go there. What a shame
:18:16. > :18:21.we don't have time to do that. The reasons he's deleting it is because
:18:22. > :18:24.solidarity with David Cameron, David Cameron before the last election
:18:25. > :18:31.deleted all his speeches and articles up until 2014. We have
:18:32. > :18:35.reached a political balance. We would be stuffed as a country,
:18:36. > :18:39.cutting off our noses to spite our face. Finally I've persuaded you.
:18:40. > :18:41.Thank you, Chris. The question for today is what has
:18:42. > :18:45.Jacob Rees-Mogg auctioned off b) A signed photo of him
:18:46. > :18:53.and Margaret Thatcher. d) Latin lessons given
:18:54. > :19:02.by Rees-Mogg himself. At the end of the show Michael
:19:03. > :19:06.will give us the correct answer. Chris Bryant will go for all of
:19:07. > :19:09.those, I think. Without a Conservative majority
:19:10. > :19:11.in the House of Lords, the government is having a hard time
:19:12. > :19:14.getting some major pieces of Last night the Housing Bill,
:19:15. > :19:18.which is meant to introduce several manifesto commitments,
:19:19. > :19:20.suffered the latest in a series of upsets at the hand
:19:21. > :19:22.of Labour, Liberal Democrat The wide-ranging bill will introduce
:19:23. > :19:29.starter homes for first time buyers at discounts of 20%,
:19:30. > :19:35.force councils to build more houses, makes high earners pay more
:19:36. > :19:38.for their social tenancy, and loosen planning rules
:19:39. > :19:42.for brownfield land. The first of this week's defeats
:19:43. > :19:45.would make starter home owners repay a proportion
:19:46. > :19:49.of their discount when they sell up, to make sure funding
:19:50. > :19:52.is still available to properties The second defeat stops
:19:53. > :19:57.the government allowing Whitehall to set the targets for the number
:19:58. > :20:01.of homes required rather And last night a third defeat
:20:02. > :20:06.ensured that any payment to the Treasury from the forced sale
:20:07. > :20:10.of council homes would be subject to parliamentary
:20:11. > :20:13.scrutiny and approval. The government was forced to make
:20:14. > :20:16.further concessions, promising to reflect on an amendment
:20:17. > :20:20.that ensures each high-value home sold off is replaced like-for-like,
:20:21. > :20:24.accepting an amendment that protects rural areas from the forced sale
:20:25. > :20:28.of council homes and providing additional safeguards
:20:29. > :20:33.over bad landlords. There are three more days of debate,
:20:34. > :20:36.starting next week. Labour have promised further
:20:37. > :20:39.opposition, describing the Bill as "half baked",
:20:40. > :20:43."extreme" and "not fit for purpose". We did ask to speak to a minister
:20:44. > :20:46.about their Housing Plans However we are joined
:20:47. > :20:50.by Bob Kerslake, he's a crossbench peer and president
:20:51. > :20:56.of the Local Government Association and chairman of the Peabody
:20:57. > :20:59.housing association. And we're joined
:21:00. > :21:02.by Andrew Griffiths. He's a Conservative MP
:21:03. > :21:15.and was on the committee looking Welcome to you both. Do you accept
:21:16. > :21:20.criticism from labour that this bill is not fit for purpose? Not at all.
:21:21. > :21:26.This is a comprehensive package that will set out what we said we would
:21:27. > :21:31.do in our manifesto. This is about increasing homeownership, meeting
:21:32. > :21:38.the aspirations of people across the country, survey after survey says
:21:39. > :21:41.86-88% of people want to own their own homes. They aspire to be a
:21:42. > :21:47.homeowner. What has happened to home ownership in the last few years? For
:21:48. > :21:50.a long period of time, home ownership has been falling. I'm
:21:51. > :21:54.pleased to say actually we have been able to hold to that and it is now
:21:55. > :21:59.stable. Clearly, we need to do more. That was under Coalition Government
:22:00. > :22:03.and Tory governments. My frustration is what we're seeing in the House of
:22:04. > :22:06.Lords at the moment, wealthy people who own their own homes, trying to
:22:07. > :22:12.prevent other people from getting on the housing ladder. Is that what you
:22:13. > :22:15.are doing? Not at all. I'm in favour of homeownership. But the way to
:22:16. > :22:22.more homeownership is to build more houses. That is the basic thing. We
:22:23. > :22:26.need to be doubling the amount of houses we build an essentially,
:22:27. > :22:30.that's why homeownership is fallen because... The bill is not stopping
:22:31. > :22:36.homes being built, is it? It's helping in some respects but it is
:22:37. > :22:42.really problematic, it's helping some people access homeownership, at
:22:43. > :22:45.the expense of people who come at the moment, could never afford to
:22:46. > :22:51.buy and desperately need affordable rented accommodation. It helps one
:22:52. > :22:57.group at the expense of another and that's where the concerns are most
:22:58. > :23:01.strong. Because we cannot shut out people on low incomes from the
:23:02. > :23:05.opportunity of decent housing. Isn't that the sort of problem, the crux
:23:06. > :23:10.of the criticism which has come about this bill, the priorities are
:23:11. > :23:13.wrong? Nobody would disagree broadly with the principle of people wanting
:23:14. > :23:17.to own their own homes but not if means whole sections of the
:23:18. > :23:21.population are still going to be in substandard housing, will never be
:23:22. > :23:25.able to afford own home or private rents are going to continue to soar
:23:26. > :23:32.and they could be kicked out? What this bill does is address all of
:23:33. > :23:36.those things. It speeds up the ability to build homes, it makes
:23:37. > :23:42.homes more affordable for first-time buyers particularly. What rate are
:23:43. > :23:48.we talking about? ?450,000 in some cases, that's not affordable. That
:23:49. > :23:53.is a cap, so in a pace like my constituency, Burton, starter home
:23:54. > :23:57.would be ?100,000 so with a 20% discount, that would be about
:23:58. > :24:04.?80,000. That is affordable to many people. What's wrong with that? The
:24:05. > :24:09.starter home is now being built at the expense of what was previously
:24:10. > :24:15.being built, affordable rented, and the other thing the Lords have not
:24:16. > :24:20.liked is the top-down centralised nature of the way things are being
:24:21. > :24:27.done. So a percentage of every single site, 20%... On average,
:24:28. > :24:31.affordable housing has been 22%, you don't need to be a great
:24:32. > :24:35.mathematician to see that this will displace people. We need starter
:24:36. > :24:40.homes, actually. What we must not do was have one group helped at the
:24:41. > :24:46.expense of another. People really understand that. It is clear from
:24:47. > :24:50.the opposition and concession after concession you had to make, this
:24:51. > :24:53.bill was not properly scrutinised and there is a wealth of opposition
:24:54. > :24:58.and powerful arguments being made against aspects of this bill and
:24:59. > :25:01.that was your failure. Not personally, but you didn't
:25:02. > :25:05.scrutinise before it went into the House of Lords. That's simply not
:25:06. > :25:09.true. There has been concession after concession. Of course, we are
:25:10. > :25:12.working with people who have concerns over the bill to find
:25:13. > :25:22.something which works for everybody, but this was thoroughly scrutinised.
:25:23. > :25:27.We sat until almost 2am. Time isn't necessarily the amount of time...
:25:28. > :25:31.Let me coming there. I can't let that point ago. If you scrutinised,
:25:32. > :25:36.I don't know what you did because this is a framework Bill. The
:25:37. > :25:43.massive details simply not available. That's what the Lords
:25:44. > :25:49.have got so upset about. In my view, we have a great Secretary of State
:25:50. > :25:53.who is wanting to address the issues but we can't get away from the fact
:25:54. > :25:58.that this bill was simply not ready and much of the frustration in the
:25:59. > :26:04.Lords, on all sides, not just Labour and the Lib Dems, we haven't had the
:26:05. > :26:08.essential details with which to make the decisions, so that's another big
:26:09. > :26:13.issue, fairness is one of the lack of readiness is another. Let's pick
:26:14. > :26:15.up on those issues because the government has now promised to
:26:16. > :26:20.rethink this idea and make an amendment on the one like-for-like
:26:21. > :26:23.replacement for each council home sold under for sale, which you
:26:24. > :26:26.weren't going to do beforehand, so that would have meant fewer council
:26:27. > :26:34.homes making payments to the Secretary of State is from the
:26:35. > :26:37.forced sale of council homes will now be having a council approval.
:26:38. > :26:41.That should have been thought about. We said throughout the bill we were
:26:42. > :26:47.going to do one-for-one replacements. In fact, in London, we
:26:48. > :26:52.are doing two for one. I beg your pardon... Let me make my point.
:26:53. > :26:58.We've said from the very beginning we going to do one for one. Under
:26:59. > :27:03.the new scheme, we are doing far in excess of that. We have committed to
:27:04. > :27:06.doing two for one in London because they recognise the pressure on
:27:07. > :27:10.London housing. All we have done with this concession is part of that
:27:11. > :27:15.on the face of the Bill. What I would say about social housing,
:27:16. > :27:19.local authorities have in their headroom ?3.2 billion to go and
:27:20. > :27:24.build social housing. We would encourage them to do that. The
:27:25. > :27:33.previous Coalition Government Biltmore council housing in its
:27:34. > :27:35.period -- Biltmore. This is a government delivering on social
:27:36. > :27:39.housing. Let me ask about the preparation and scrutiny because do
:27:40. > :27:42.not have to accept some of the blame for this bill being described as
:27:43. > :27:48.half baked because you were overseeing housing policy admittedly
:27:49. > :27:56.last year at the committee 's garment? Not this bill. This is a
:27:57. > :28:01.post-election bill I had no part of. I thought was announced in 2014 you
:28:02. > :28:08.were the permanent secretary. We have to differ on that point. Is he
:28:09. > :28:13.right, though? What was announced in 2014 was a different policy, starter
:28:14. > :28:18.homes, exception brown field sites, but it became during the election
:28:19. > :28:21.process, a replacement for affordable renting and that's where
:28:22. > :28:25.the problems of started. Completely different project. Let me just deal
:28:26. > :28:31.with this question raised about the scrutiny of the Bill. It really has
:28:32. > :28:36.not have the proper analysis and we have not had the detail on it. I
:28:37. > :28:39.think that is a very big issue. You have got to sit alongside other
:28:40. > :28:44.policies so, in future, instead of secure tenancies for those who live
:28:45. > :28:48.in social rented, they will be given a maximum five years, these are big
:28:49. > :28:53.issues. It will impact on ordinary people. There are priorities and the
:28:54. > :28:58.government made clear its priorities. Before the election with
:28:59. > :29:02.a manifesto. There has been some criticism of your role and whether
:29:03. > :29:06.there is a question of a conflict-of-interest because you are
:29:07. > :29:11.chairman of the Peabody Housing Association and one of the
:29:12. > :29:14.criticisms made is extending the right to buy to those tenants. Do
:29:15. > :29:19.you accept that? The housing associations have done a deal with
:29:20. > :29:25.governments so if this is just about my role with Peabody I could
:29:26. > :29:30.reasonably say a deal has been done. My deal with local authorities and
:29:31. > :29:37.the impact on them, that is more my role in local government, I'm most
:29:38. > :29:40.concerned about the impact on the opportunity for ordinary low income
:29:41. > :29:47.people to access the party and a home. That's what bothers me. Do you
:29:48. > :29:53.accept there will be more opposition to this bill? No, before the House
:29:54. > :29:58.of Commons another strong majority. You don't have a majority House of
:29:59. > :30:01.Lords. Exactly right and it's frustrating when manifesto
:30:02. > :30:05.commitment the general public voted for being blocked by the unelected
:30:06. > :30:11.house. I'm going to have to finish there unfortunately. We are seeking
:30:12. > :30:15.to revise it and amend it. Absolutely right. Maybe we'll have
:30:16. > :30:17.you both back on again at the next stage. You are booked!
:30:18. > :30:20.The leader of the SNP in the Commons, where of course
:30:21. > :30:22.the party is the third largest group, used his regular question
:30:23. > :30:24.to the Prime Minister yesterday to challenge the government's
:30:25. > :30:26.efforts to crack down on tax avoidance.
:30:27. > :30:28.To make his point, Angus Robertson deployed a striking statistic.
:30:29. > :30:33.3,250 DWP staff have been specifically investigating benefit
:30:34. > :30:36.fraud whilst only 300 HMRC staff have been systematically
:30:37. > :30:50.I will look carefully at his statistics but they sound
:30:51. > :30:56.So was the Prime Minister right to question the statistic?
:30:57. > :31:01.With us to shed some light on the matter is Will Moy,
:31:02. > :31:15.Was Angus Robertson correct with his statistic? He had a point but not as
:31:16. > :31:20.big as the point he was trying to make with it. The Prime Minister
:31:21. > :31:24.went on to say that there were 26,000 people in HMRC dealing with
:31:25. > :31:29.compliance and enforcement and that is true but Angus Robertson was
:31:30. > :31:35.focused on rich individuals, not Starbucks and the rest of it, he was
:31:36. > :31:40.focusing on the rich people. There are more than 3500 people dealing
:31:41. > :31:45.with and that fraud at the DWP and the nearest comparable figure is 700
:31:46. > :31:50.people in HMRC dealing with the tax affairs of people earning more than
:31:51. > :31:56.150,000 a year and have more than ?1 million to their name. Where did he
:31:57. > :31:59.get the statistic from? It was not correct, the point was being made
:32:00. > :32:04.but it was not accurate so where did he get it from? His broad point that
:32:05. > :32:09.there were more people working directly on benefit fraud and tax
:32:10. > :32:16.evasion among individual rich people is correct but his figures were
:32:17. > :32:21.wrong. His DWP figures were slightly out of date and with HMRC, he has
:32:22. > :32:25.found the 300 people dealing with people who have between one million
:32:26. > :32:30.and ?20 million to their name, there are another 400 people dealing with
:32:31. > :32:34.high net worth individuals, more than ?20 million to their name so
:32:35. > :32:38.combined there are 700 people dealing with what you might call the
:32:39. > :32:42.super-rich. I understand you put this to the SNP, what was their
:32:43. > :32:48.response? I have not heard back on the detail. I don't know what they
:32:49. > :32:55.would say about the figures. The 300 he is using it a fair figure, it is
:32:56. > :32:59.just a subset of the total. The DWP figure is just a little out of date.
:33:00. > :33:04.We are expecting a response so we will bring it to viewers tomorrow.
:33:05. > :33:09.Stay with us. The impact of statistics like that can be powerful
:33:10. > :33:13.and making a moral equivalent judgment that there are ten times
:33:14. > :33:17.more staff dealing with the poorest in society than super-rich evading
:33:18. > :33:24.their taxes so how important is it to be accurate? It is important if
:33:25. > :33:31.you can be found out within the next day or even the same day on social
:33:32. > :33:34.media. People can Google it themselves quickly and say he has
:33:35. > :33:41.got it wrong so it is very important, especially... He was not
:33:42. > :33:46.actually making a partisan political point, it was more a Whitehall
:33:47. > :33:53.point. But it was interesting what has been just said. It was the
:33:54. > :33:59.famous Tory Victorian by Minister Disraeli who said there are lies,
:34:00. > :34:02.dammed lies and statistics. It is a favourite phrase of politicians and
:34:03. > :34:04.journalists alike! Will Moy, thank you very much.
:34:05. > :34:15.Now, the Chancellor George Osborne is often spoken of as a future
:34:16. > :34:18.Conservative leader, but in a YouGov poll in this morning's
:34:19. > :34:20.Times found that in a straight choice between Mr Osborne
:34:21. > :34:22.and Jeremy Corbyn for Prime Minister, Mr Corbyn
:34:23. > :34:27.It's perhaps a reminder that the job of Chancellor is a tricky one
:34:28. > :34:29.at the best of times, and can easily finish
:34:30. > :34:33.Here's Giles Dilnot with the latest in our series, so you want to be
:34:34. > :34:39.Could you be responsible for the entire British economy,
:34:40. > :34:43.how much we spend, how much tax we collect and how much money every
:34:44. > :34:53.So, you want to be Chancellor of the Exchequer.
:34:54. > :34:56.The fun of the Treasury is that you are right at the heart
:34:57. > :34:59.of government so if you are a real political addict, I think
:35:00. > :35:03.the Treasury is the one you want to go to.
:35:04. > :35:05.The Treasury is the most disliked department in Whitehall
:35:06. > :35:11.Within three months of me being there we had the first run
:35:12. > :35:14.on a bank for over a century and if the world is in meltdown,
:35:15. > :35:17.running around like Corporal Jones doesn't really help that much.
:35:18. > :35:19.You should never panic until it is absolutely
:35:20. > :35:26.That was the only job I wanted, to be Chancellor.
:35:27. > :35:29.It was one I felt that everything I had done in my previous career
:35:30. > :35:34.It is also, at any time, probably the most important
:35:35. > :35:41.Jill Rutter, who was a senior civil servant and now
:35:42. > :35:43.at the Institute for Government, agrees being Chancellor
:35:44. > :35:45.is a powerful position but it's more complex than that.
:35:46. > :35:48.The unique thing about being Chancellor is you are likely to get
:35:49. > :35:53.You will see yourself as the number two in government but actually
:35:54. > :35:56.you can call on the resource and the big battalions
:35:57. > :35:59.of the Treasury so it's quite often possible for you to outgun the Prime
:36:00. > :36:03.The hidden secret about the Treasury is actually, if the economy
:36:04. > :36:07.is going OK, there is not much you have to do so one
:36:08. > :36:09.of your choices is what you do with all that spare time,
:36:10. > :36:14.Totally different, though, if you find yourself
:36:15. > :36:17.in the middle of a crisis when it is all hands on deck,
:36:18. > :36:22.People think you are sort of driving a car and you press
:36:23. > :36:28.Actually it is much more complicated than that.
:36:29. > :36:30.You are dealing with the consequences, one, of things
:36:31. > :36:34.totally beyond your control, two, insofar as decisions effect
:36:35. > :36:38.the economy, you're dealing with the consequences of decisions
:36:39. > :36:44.made probably 18 months, two years before.
:36:45. > :36:46.Nigel, now Lord, Lawson, alongside his Prime Minister,
:36:47. > :36:49.Margaret Thatcher, pushed through huge economic changes
:36:50. > :36:58.in the 1980s but even he admits you can't know it is going to work.
:36:59. > :37:04.When you become Chancellor, you are conscious of the fact
:37:05. > :37:07.that it is you who has to take the decisions and in real
:37:08. > :37:09.life, you never know for sure that the decisions
:37:10. > :37:16.You believe they are, you think them through very carefully,
:37:17. > :37:20.but in this world you can never have absolute certainty.
:37:21. > :37:23.For Ken Clarke, however you dress it up, how successful anyone has been
:37:24. > :37:25.at driving the economy is something of a moot point.
:37:26. > :37:29.It is a combination of growth and low inflation, that is the holy
:37:30. > :37:37.And absolutely nobody has delivered it since the war for anything other
:37:38. > :37:45.The classic British pattern has always been to make a complete
:37:46. > :37:47.Horlicks of the thing and when it finally collapsed,
:37:48. > :37:50.you find yourself in a sterling crisis, you are forced to devalue
:37:51. > :37:53.and the Chancellor is sacked or moved sideways or you move
:37:54. > :37:58.The Bank of England would not have lent us any money
:37:59. > :38:01.if we were in an unstable financial position.
:38:02. > :38:04.Alistair Darling had to face just such a calamity and when it came,
:38:05. > :38:08.the clock was ticking faster than we might imagine.
:38:09. > :38:10.When things get out of control and people are panicking,
:38:11. > :38:12.that is when governments start to shake.
:38:13. > :38:16.I received a call from the then chairman of RBS to say
:38:17. > :38:20.that the bank, RBS, was haemorrhaging money.
:38:21. > :38:24.We did have a rescue plan ready to go.
:38:25. > :38:26.He said, well, maybe two or three hours.
:38:27. > :38:29.That was when it struck me that whatever decision we took,
:38:30. > :38:31.and we had to take it within minutes, would make
:38:32. > :38:35.a profound difference, never mind to the government's
:38:36. > :38:38.fortunes, but frankly to the country because if RBS had gone down,
:38:39. > :38:40.the cash machines would have gone off, the drawers would have closed
:38:41. > :38:43.and every other bank would have come down with it.
:38:44. > :38:47.Crises aside, one event, for a Chancellor, is fixed
:38:48. > :38:57.I got someone to help me write a speech because you have to be
:38:58. > :38:59.a bit careful of the language you use.
:39:00. > :39:02.I couldn't do my usual thing of getting up with a few notes
:39:03. > :39:06.because I would suddenly change the markets by using
:39:07. > :39:12.And on budget day I used to go out to enjoy it.
:39:13. > :39:14.I had absolutely worked God knows what hours
:39:15. > :39:16.for the previous six months, the entire department was pretty
:39:17. > :39:20.Budget day, you are presenting it, you are selling it, the British
:39:21. > :39:24.turn their annual budget into a bit of a circus for some bizarre reason.
:39:25. > :39:30.All the waving the red box about, drinking the whiskey off
:39:31. > :39:37.Lord Lawson says the budget razzmatazz may seem odd
:39:38. > :39:45.A lot of people think how antiquated and stupid all this ritual
:39:46. > :39:49.is but in fact it is very good for one day of the year to be able
:39:50. > :39:52.to focus the minds of the people on not just the budget measures
:39:53. > :39:55.but also on the economic policy of which they are a part.
:39:56. > :40:00.Delivering the budget, controlling the money,
:40:01. > :40:07.To Norman Lamont, that makes a Chancellor a cut
:40:08. > :40:14.If I may say something that will annoy some people,
:40:15. > :40:17.I think it is probably much more demanding being Chancellor
:40:18. > :40:20.of the Exchequer or Prime Minister than it is Foreign Secretary.
:40:21. > :40:25.The Foreign Secretary won't like me saying that
:40:26. > :40:27.but I remember Jim Callaghan, who was both Chancellor
:40:28. > :40:29.and Foreign Secretary, said the latter was a doddle.
:40:30. > :40:33.It seems the price to be paid for being in charge of the money
:40:34. > :40:35.is that your political capital is spent managing it
:40:36. > :40:38.all and your stock as a politician ultimately rises or falls on how
:40:39. > :40:55.Most memorable Chancellor for you in recent times? I think Roy Jenkins
:40:56. > :41:02.with a pretty powerful Chancellor because he inherited the aftermath
:41:03. > :41:06.of the devaluation when Jim Callaghan was moved to the Home
:41:07. > :41:12.Office and they swapped jobs and the economy was in a real mess. Another
:41:13. > :41:20.one is Denis Healy, he had the IMF coming... A begging bowl! He said,
:41:21. > :41:25.of all the jobs he did, it was the only one that kept him awake at
:41:26. > :41:31.night. The amount of work, sheer hard slog you had to do in that time
:41:32. > :41:37.was unbelievable he said. And the other way around, I remember Mrs
:41:38. > :41:42.Thatcher said to Nigel Lawson, Nigel, you must get your hair cut,
:41:43. > :41:48.the markets won't trust a long-haired Chancellor! It might
:41:49. > :41:55.take more than a haircut! I asked Ken Clarke about the Treasury, this
:41:56. > :42:00.famous secret institution and he said, it was full of first-class
:42:01. > :42:09.brains from Oxford and Cambridge, we had these wonderful debates like all
:42:10. > :42:13.souls College in Oxford, brilliantly argued, brilliantly articulate and
:42:14. > :42:19.totally out of touch with the real world. That is very reassuring when
:42:20. > :42:26.they are running the country! What about the chances of the top job?
:42:27. > :42:31.Let's look at George Osborne, are you selling shares in brand Osborne
:42:32. > :42:36.at the moment? The chances for a top job for a Chancellor have not been
:42:37. > :42:43.very good. There have been a couple. John Major, Gordon Brown, Jim
:42:44. > :42:49.Callaghan. He did all the great offices of state. Winston Churchill
:42:50. > :42:58.in the 1920s. You don't necessarily get the job, it is slightly like the
:42:59. > :43:02.fly on the oxcart we'll come if the economy is going welcome the flight
:43:03. > :43:08.thinks he is pushing the oxcart. So what are the chances for George
:43:09. > :43:11.Osborne? Ask me that on the 24th of June because everything in the
:43:12. > :43:14.kaleidoscope of British politics will become a little clearer. You
:43:15. > :43:16.have a get out of jail free card! The Government yesterday
:43:17. > :43:19.defended its plan to force every school in England to become
:43:20. > :43:21.an academy in the face of criticism from both the Labour Party
:43:22. > :43:24.and its own backbenchers. The proposal has led to teachers
:43:25. > :43:28.calling for a one-day strike and the Local Government Association
:43:29. > :43:31.has said the move defies reason. Let's have a look at some of the
:43:32. > :43:40.debate from the Commons yesterday. The Government's plan has been met
:43:41. > :43:43.with such concern even by the very school leaders they claim to be
:43:44. > :43:46.supporting because it is a bad It is yet another policy from this
:43:47. > :43:51.government that obsesses with school The academies programme
:43:52. > :43:56.takes our core Conservative belief that public services should be run
:43:57. > :43:59.by front-line professionals. That means heads, teachers
:44:00. > :44:02.and governors running our schools. International evidence shows
:44:03. > :44:04.that the autonomy of schools is linked to improved performance
:44:05. > :44:08.and school accountability As a Conservative, I also believe
:44:09. > :44:19.in choice so could she outline to me the downside of allowing academies
:44:20. > :44:23.or schools to migrate organically, if they choose to, to academy
:44:24. > :44:25.status, rather than imposing a compulsory and arbitrary
:44:26. > :44:32.Not one person there has had the courage to stand up and say
:44:33. > :44:36.there is fundamentally something totally inaccurate in the motion
:44:37. > :44:39.today, claiming that she and our government are trying to ban
:44:40. > :44:43.the role of parents on governing bodies in schools.
:44:44. > :44:45.Every single secondary school in my constituency is an Academy
:44:46. > :44:48.and they all have parents on governing bodies.
:44:49. > :44:51.So can we please have a compromise at the end of this process
:44:52. > :44:54.by which county councils will not necessarily be forced to give up
:44:55. > :44:56.control of their small primary schools?
:44:57. > :44:59.It is essential in rural areas that we keep them open.
:45:00. > :45:02.I know she wants to proceed in a compromise not forcing
:45:03. > :45:06.Call me old-fashioned but I'm of the view that if you've got
:45:07. > :45:09.a well governed school running well, just leave it alone and let it
:45:10. > :45:24.Joining us now is former Education Secretary, Lord Baker.
:45:25. > :45:31.Welcomed with the show. Let's pick up on that last point. If it ain't
:45:32. > :45:38.broke, why not leave schools if they are doing fine under local authority
:45:39. > :45:42.control? In the light of the debate yesterday, I thought Vicky Morgan
:45:43. > :45:45.will be taking soundings amongst her backbenchers. I think she will
:45:46. > :45:51.listen to their concerns to see how she can meet them. I'm not against
:45:52. > :45:57.it. You are a big fan of them. In the 1980s I said at the first 16
:45:58. > :46:01.schools technology colleges but I did it slowly. You constantly make a
:46:02. > :46:06.school become independent unless the headmaster is capable of running it.
:46:07. > :46:09.With a budget, appointing staff, buying his own equipment, it takes a
:46:10. > :46:14.lot of time to get into that, so I believe in the inevitability of
:46:15. > :46:20.gradual loss. If the policy wrong, imposing it on schools? I think that
:46:21. > :46:25.will be modified to some extent. How do you do that without just having
:46:26. > :46:31.to retreat completely? The way to do it is to coax them because when
:46:32. > :46:35.Labour left office, the coalition started in 2010, there were 200
:46:36. > :46:41.academies and now there are 4700. The law has not been changed. People
:46:42. > :46:45.had seen the advantages. In some cases, a well-run Academy can
:46:46. > :46:49.improve basic standards of schools, so I would let that processed,
:46:50. > :46:53.generate that more actively, as it were, and the rot problems of
:46:54. > :47:01.course. Like small rural primary schools. I would let it alone. I'm
:47:02. > :47:06.in favour of academies. I would encourage more of their development.
:47:07. > :47:11.The school I'm setting up are technically all academies,
:47:12. > :47:16.Independent. Do you think it is not conservative to force and impose
:47:17. > :47:24.this, when you should give people choice? At the end of the day, I
:47:25. > :47:28.think there are great problems which are now so many academies, you got
:47:29. > :47:33.to have some intermediate bodies between the departments of the
:47:34. > :47:36.academies, because the department could not run 24,000 schools. It
:47:37. > :47:42.could not even run one school and that's why the Academy trust... It
:47:43. > :47:45.would make it less central in that sense but do you feel the
:47:46. > :47:51.government's intention to remove the obligation to keep parent governors
:47:52. > :47:58.is also misguided? I do think so because I think parent governors at
:47:59. > :48:02.a great deal. You heard the MP from Gloucester saying exactly the same.
:48:03. > :48:07.All his schools are academies in his area. With parent governors on it. A
:48:08. > :48:12.parent governor is part of the local community. Certainly my colleges
:48:13. > :48:18.have parent governors. You would like that bit too dropped? Yes,
:48:19. > :48:23.modified. A lot of modification on this policy. Do you accept by
:48:24. > :48:28.literally renaming a school, making it an Academy, it doesn't
:48:29. > :48:33.necessarily make it a good school, does it? It's not a question of
:48:34. > :48:37.names. An Academy is good but would be better if the managing team, the
:48:38. > :48:41.head and the governing body, are determined to make it better and
:48:42. > :48:46.know how to do it. That's why I believe the inevitability of gradual
:48:47. > :48:50.as is the way to do it. You have to train people, governing bodies,
:48:51. > :48:54.Headmasters, in this, so they understand the complexity of running
:48:55. > :48:59.a school. You can't change most schools easily into an Academy
:49:00. > :49:03.because most complex area is the finance. The sustainability of
:49:04. > :49:09.financing. It's very, very, located. Were you surprised by the number of
:49:10. > :49:15.Conservative backbenchers who criticise this policy? No, MPs take
:49:16. > :49:19.a great interest in education. They go to schools, see the parents and
:49:20. > :49:23.children and are very involved. Do you think those are showing more
:49:24. > :49:26.rebellion in the Conservative backbenchers? Some of them are
:49:27. > :49:31.rebelling any case about the referendum. Do you think that has
:49:32. > :49:38.allowed them to be a little more vocal? It is an emotive force. I'm
:49:39. > :49:44.interested in Ken Baker talking about the inevitability of gradual
:49:45. > :49:49.loss, because that's the famous Roman general, fabulous, after whom
:49:50. > :49:55.the Fabian Society, when I strike, I strike hard, the inevitability of
:49:56. > :49:58.it. I was also struck by how partisan this whole debate about
:49:59. > :50:04.education is. If you think about going back to when Kenneth was
:50:05. > :50:10.Education Secretary and subsequently Tony Blair wanted to make education
:50:11. > :50:16.one of his issues, he said education, education, education. The
:50:17. > :50:20.following week, John Major was so worried about that, he said, on this
:50:21. > :50:26.platform last week, Tony Blair said his priority was education,
:50:27. > :50:32.education, education. Well, they are my three priorities for government
:50:33. > :50:39.but not necessarily in that order. That's quite a good joke. Do you
:50:40. > :50:45.remember that? I would love to take education out of politics. Really?
:50:46. > :50:50.Yes, the colleges I'm setting up are supported by all three parties and I
:50:51. > :50:55.was conscious to get Labour to supported and the Liberals because
:50:56. > :50:59.those are the changes which survive and our colleges will survive. I
:51:00. > :51:06.think teachers might sign up to it being taken out of politics. They
:51:07. > :51:10.hate all that tinkering. And the unions. Some teachers are very
:51:11. > :51:11.politicised, no doubt about that. Thank you.
:51:12. > :51:14.Now, we often talk about moments of political theatre or high
:51:15. > :51:16.drama at Westminster, but next week it will be playing
:51:17. > :51:20.In what's claimed to be the first ever performance of a Shakespeare
:51:21. > :51:23.play in the Houses of Parliament, members of the public
:51:24. > :51:26.are being invited in to watch a new production of this history
:51:27. > :51:28.play Richard II, Shakespeare's story of power and plotting
:51:29. > :51:31.This version has been reworked as a modern
:51:32. > :51:33.Westminster power struggle, but let's have a listen
:51:34. > :51:36.to the play's most famous speech, as performed by John Gielgud.
:51:37. > :51:41.This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
:51:42. > :51:45.This nurse, this teeming womb of royal kings,
:51:46. > :51:49.feared by their breed and famous by their birth, renowned
:51:50. > :51:52.for their deeds as far from home, for Christian service and true
:51:53. > :51:56.chivalry, as is the sepulchre in stubborn Jewry, of the world's
:51:57. > :52:07.This land of such dear souls, this dear, dear land,
:52:08. > :52:15.dear for her reputation through the world.
:52:16. > :52:19.Well, we're joined now the co-directors of the play,
:52:20. > :52:28.Sorry, I was listening to it so intently. You got a lot to live up
:52:29. > :52:33.to. Yes, it's one of Shakespeare's best plays and we hope to do it
:52:34. > :52:37.justice. How is it a modern take? We do a lot of work with Shakespeare in
:52:38. > :52:41.schools around the country with our theatre company and we find that
:52:42. > :52:45.these plays, when done right, they do connect and engage with all
:52:46. > :52:53.generations and transcend the generations in society. Amazingly,
:52:54. > :52:58.Richard II and his history plays are about society, about power, who has
:52:59. > :53:03.it, who is losing it, and in a sense, these plays speak to
:53:04. > :53:07.politics. They are relevant for today. Absolutely, it's a power
:53:08. > :53:10.struggle. A power struggle between someone who believes he deserves to
:53:11. > :53:14.be king and someone else who believes they would be a better
:53:15. > :53:18.leader than the one currently in power. Why do you decide to staged
:53:19. > :53:22.in the House of Commons? We felt, when we found that the rules had
:53:23. > :53:26.changed recently to allow the public to apply to put on events in the
:53:27. > :53:30.House of Commons, we thought what better way to commemorate the
:53:31. > :53:34.anniversary of Shakespeare's death to literally put one of his greatest
:53:35. > :53:37.political thrillers at the centre of national politics. What do you think
:53:38. > :53:41.it will add to the atmosphere? I think it would give it an immediacy.
:53:42. > :53:44.We are doing it in the members dining room off the Central Lobby
:53:45. > :53:50.but in the Commons and the Lords, and it feels like the type of room
:53:51. > :53:56.where plots are made. Skulduggery goes on! That room is amazing. How
:53:57. > :54:01.have you adapted it and made it relevant and resonate for younger
:54:02. > :54:05.audiences? It's still very much Shakespeare's play, written entirely
:54:06. > :54:08.in his verse, the changes we have made have been more to follow
:54:09. > :54:14.through the lines of history from the settings Shakespeare had. To
:54:15. > :54:18.modern political landscapes, so for example, there was a joust
:54:19. > :54:21.originally which we thought what would be the modern equivalent of
:54:22. > :54:29.that and it would be a TV debate, a public debate. Who is in your joust?
:54:30. > :54:32.Bolingbroke, the charismatic Challenger and Thomas Mowbray, who
:54:33. > :54:37.has some questions to answer about a mysterious political death. You have
:54:38. > :54:42.filled so often in the Houses of Parliament when they finally let you
:54:43. > :54:47.in. How do you think this will work? Are you pleased this is the sort of
:54:48. > :54:53.cultural activity being staged? Absolutely. The House of Commons,
:54:54. > :54:57.you go in there, it's built on the site of William the Conqueror 's
:54:58. > :55:07.first palace, and it reeks of history around every corner. There
:55:08. > :55:12.is plotting going on. You feel, you smell the conspiracies going on and
:55:13. > :55:19.you watch people. People watching as they walk through the new part of
:55:20. > :55:23.the House of Commons, portcullis house, you see he's talking to him
:55:24. > :55:29.and all that kind of thing. It is living theatre and when you say
:55:30. > :55:33.about the joust, every week, Prime Minister's Questions is a joust. I
:55:34. > :55:38.have to leave it there but good luck. Thank you. Come and see it. I
:55:39. > :55:40.would love to. There's an invitation.
:55:41. > :55:43.Now, there was a big new appointment at the Foreign Office yesterday.
:55:44. > :55:45.Nothing to do with a government reshuffle, but the arrival
:55:46. > :55:48.of a new cat which caused a bit of a stir across Whitehall.
:55:49. > :55:57.It's a tale which starts on the mean streets of London.
:55:58. > :56:10.But it ends well, for this is a cat that's found its place in one
:56:11. > :56:13.of the great offices of state, the Foreign Office.
:56:14. > :56:19.And a name to befit the role - Palmerston.
:56:20. > :56:21.They are after a mouser because I do understand
:56:22. > :56:24.that they have a pest problem, but they're also very keen
:56:25. > :56:26.to have a companion cat for all the people who work there,
:56:27. > :56:31.and we think he'll fit the bill for both very well.
:56:32. > :56:32.He's really confident, he's really sociable,
:56:33. > :56:35.he loves people, but he has what we call a really high play
:56:36. > :56:39.drive and he loves to stalk toys and chase toys and pounce on toys,
:56:40. > :56:43.which suggests that he'd also like to exhibit that
:56:44. > :56:49.Obviously this is an important role for anyone in the Foreign Office
:56:50. > :56:52.so I think it's fairly crucial we ask Palmerston what his views
:56:53. > :56:56.are on some of the big issues of the day.
:56:57. > :57:03.Palmerston, what are your thoughts on Britain leaving the EU?
:57:04. > :57:18.No diplomatic car, but the formerly feral feline turned ministerial
:57:19. > :57:23.mouser mog was officially announced to Whitehall.
:57:24. > :57:30.Palmerston has only just arrived here in the Foreign Office,
:57:31. > :57:34.but seems to be fitting in very well to ministerial life.
:57:35. > :57:38.He refused to do an interview any shots with the assembled world media
:57:39. > :57:40.here, but I have been given a statement
:57:41. > :57:55.A cat a few words. Do you think Palmerston will settle into the
:57:56. > :58:00.Foreign Office? There are lots of mice and the Foreign Office as one
:58:01. > :58:08.of moles. Yes, exactly. He's got a big job to do. I was thinking about
:58:09. > :58:11.making a film about animals and politics. It could be called
:58:12. > :58:12.Political Animals. There is a thing. There's just time before we go
:58:13. > :58:16.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was what has
:58:17. > :58:18.Jacob Rees-Mogg auctioned off Was it his nanny, a signed photo
:58:19. > :58:22.of him and Margaret Thatcher, one of his beautifully cut suits,
:58:23. > :58:24.or Latin lessons given So, Michael, what's
:58:25. > :58:36.the correct answer? Jacob Rees Mogg, I said he's a
:58:37. > :58:45.member for the 18th century and he said far too late. 16th century.
:58:46. > :58:49.Latin lessons. It's not, it is tea with his nanny, can you believe?
:58:50. > :58:54.That is at Fortnum and Mason 's and it went for ?5,000 at a fundraiser.
:58:55. > :58:58.Excellent. You said it was auctioning off his nanny? That's it.
:58:59. > :59:02.Goodbye from us.