:00:37. > :00:39.Afternoon folks and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:45.The starting gun is fired as the official campaign period
:00:46. > :00:54.but is it a level playing field for Leave and Remain?
:00:55. > :00:56.They may have more money but have they also got more love?
:00:57. > :01:02.Can our EU neighbours persuade Britons to stay with a hug?
:01:03. > :01:05.The Panama Papers have laid bare the secretive world of tax havens,
:01:06. > :01:13.can an EU deal on tax transparency crack down on tax evasion?
:01:14. > :01:18.And, a Conservative MP refers to a female journalist as "totty",
:01:19. > :01:30.was the journalist right to complain about the MP's language?
:01:31. > :01:34.All that in the next hour and with us for the first half hour
:01:35. > :01:38.today Mail on Sunday Columnist, Dan Hodges.
:01:39. > :01:51.The UK's multi-billion pound contribution to the EU
:01:52. > :01:54.would better spent on the NHS to "give it the funding it needs",
:01:55. > :01:57.so says Michael Gove as he fires the latest salvo from
:01:58. > :02:00.Meanwhile Remain campaigners are preparing to deploy their big
:02:01. > :02:05.Barack Obama will say that the UK would be better off as a member
:02:06. > :02:07.of the European Union when he visits the Britain next week.
:02:08. > :02:10.Today marks the beginning of the official European Union
:02:11. > :02:15.Ending on June 23 when the UK will vote to decide
:02:16. > :02:18.Vote Leave and Britain Stronger in Europe have been designated
:02:19. > :02:20.as the lead campaigns for the respective
:02:21. > :02:27.will be both allowed to spend up to ?7 million,
:02:28. > :02:42.But Leave campaigners say it's not a level playing field
:02:43. > :02:45.as the government has already spent ?9 million on a leaflet
:02:46. > :02:47.to be delivered to 27 million homes across the UK.
:02:48. > :02:50.However this morning former Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling
:02:51. > :03:03.of attacking the player not the ball.
:03:04. > :03:09.Too often, they play the man and not the ball, they cannot compete on the
:03:10. > :03:12.substance of the message so they attack the messenger, that is what
:03:13. > :03:18.happened in Scotland, it did not work for the Nationalists then and
:03:19. > :03:28.it will not work now. Alistair Darling Randa remain in the United
:03:29. > :03:29.Kingdom campaign. -- -- Alistair Darling ran the remain in the
:03:30. > :03:32.knighted kingdom campaign. Joining us now is Nigel Farage,
:03:33. > :03:35.fresh from posting his government's leaflet on the EU back
:03:36. > :03:40.through the Prime I'm pretty outraged that they are
:03:41. > :03:43.telling us what to think, it has been said that it is outside of the
:03:44. > :03:47.spirit in which the referendum should be conducted. Does it offend
:03:48. > :03:51.the British sense of fair play that in this one leaflet, the remain side
:03:52. > :03:57.has spent more money than the whole of the league side will spend
:03:58. > :04:01.between now and June 23? If you look at it on that level, the British
:04:02. > :04:07.people will not be writing in the streets over a ?9 million leave
:04:08. > :04:15.leaflet. Will it offend the sense of fair play? People are not looking at
:04:16. > :04:19.the issue on that level that closely, I think Alistair Darling
:04:20. > :04:23.has a point, the out campaign have today been focusing very much on the
:04:24. > :04:28.process elements of the debate, the leaflet, the stuff about whether out
:04:29. > :04:34.ministers would have the same access to information. Wouldn't it be fair
:04:35. > :04:39.to give his lot, his side, a free leaflet, as well? That would even it
:04:40. > :04:43.up, and I would suggest, the British media may not read either of them!
:04:44. > :04:52.But it would at least be, yes, that is fair, this side has had ?9
:04:53. > :04:56.million of free leaflet. Talking about neutrality, the government is
:04:57. > :04:59.not neutral, the government has a clear view, and it is right, and it
:05:00. > :05:04.would be rather odd if the government was in a position with
:05:05. > :05:08.the debate going on and could not express itself. The British
:05:09. > :05:11.government is doing that every day, on television and radio and in the
:05:12. > :05:14.newspapers every single day, the argument is that at the end of this
:05:15. > :05:19.campaign, believes side will have had one leaflet to each household,
:05:20. > :05:28.and the remain side will have at two, that is not fair play. -- the
:05:29. > :05:33.Leave side. The IMF has come out to warn about economic consequences of
:05:34. > :05:40.leaving, Barack Obama is flying in, to do the same. The CBI, these are
:05:41. > :05:47.pretty impressive names lined up against you. It helps for me, I'm
:05:48. > :05:51.pushing this as people against politicians, the more that the
:05:52. > :05:54.establishment up together, the better. This is about ordinary folk
:05:55. > :05:59.making up their minds. Look at the level of threat we have had already,
:06:00. > :06:01.who else can they produce, virtually everybody in the world of
:06:02. > :06:05.international politics has come out to declare that they are for the
:06:06. > :06:12.status quo, does not worry me at all. Is there a danger for Remain in
:06:13. > :06:15.this, from the United States, the success of Donald Trump, and Bernard
:06:16. > :06:20.Sanders, in the Democratic primaries, there is an
:06:21. > :06:25.antiestablishment move around, you can see that in this country as
:06:26. > :06:32.well. The remain side becomes the establishment side, and that is what
:06:33. > :06:36.people vote against. -- Remain. That is the narrative but looking at the
:06:37. > :06:44.history of referendums, general elections, I worked on the no to A/V
:06:45. > :06:47.campaign, back in 2011, for the yes -- the yes to A/V campaign, they try
:06:48. > :06:54.to harness this antiestablishment mood, looking at the SNP, they were
:06:55. > :06:56.supposedly harnessing that, the general election, Ed Miliband were
:06:57. > :07:02.supposedly harnessing an antiestablishment mood, Nigel
:07:03. > :07:06.himself was supposedly harnessing an antiestablishment mood. Most British
:07:07. > :07:10.people would regard Ed Miliband and David Cameron as part of the
:07:11. > :07:17.establishment but here, a choice between the mainstream forces, and
:07:18. > :07:21.an alternative. When people, with respect, when people see Nigel,
:07:22. > :07:25.Nigel Lawson, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, making the campaign from
:07:26. > :07:32.the other side, I think they do not see those people as outsiders. Do we
:07:33. > :07:36.have any friends and lies on your side? Ordinary decent people who
:07:37. > :07:43.want their country back and want to be governing, and... I mean from
:07:44. > :07:46.abroad. Is there anybody? In private, when you speak with
:07:47. > :07:51.ministers from around the Commonwealth, they all say that
:07:52. > :07:54.Britain turning its back on its friends 40 years ago was a wicked
:07:55. > :07:58.thing to have done, and what we should be doing is opening ourselves
:07:59. > :08:01.up, indeed, one of the Commonwealth conferences, if you years ago,
:08:02. > :08:06.debated a Commonwealth free trade area. There are people who in
:08:07. > :08:10.private would say, if Britain leads, our relationship can improve, but in
:08:11. > :08:13.public, part of the international community. New Zealand and Australia
:08:14. > :08:17.were miffed when we joined, because of what happened with their
:08:18. > :08:21.agricultural produce, they are all saying that we should stay, even
:08:22. > :08:27.Tony Abbott... Former right-wing Prime Minister of Australia, who may
:08:28. > :08:33.be thought to be in some way seen as the Nigel Farage of Australia. He
:08:34. > :08:36.says we should stay. As I said earlier, it is the international
:08:37. > :08:39.establishment, and all of those organisations, clubbing together, at
:08:40. > :08:44.the end of the day I don't think it makes any difference. Simple
:08:45. > :08:48.proposition in this referendum, A/V was not, I was on the other side, my
:08:49. > :08:55.problem was, I could not explain the people what it was. In a sentence. I
:08:56. > :08:59.going to try it now(!) LAUGHTER It is too difficult, that is why we
:09:00. > :09:02.lost! The point about this referendum, what we're saying to
:09:03. > :09:06.people is, that is why we lost, if you vote for us to leave, then we
:09:07. > :09:09.will be self-governing, it will not solve all of our problems but we
:09:10. > :09:14.will be in charge, ample propositions. Given everything that
:09:15. > :09:19.has been thrown at it so far from the Remain side, all of the big guns
:09:20. > :09:23.that have been wheeled out, even though the campaign only starts
:09:24. > :09:27.today, our you not surprised that it is not doing better, that it is nip
:09:28. > :09:34.and tuck in the polls, and believes side is showing momentum. -- Vote
:09:35. > :09:38.Leave side. I don't think it is nip and tuck. What is significant about
:09:39. > :09:41.these polls, from the start of the year, the polls have not shown that
:09:42. > :09:49.much of a shift, there has been a consistent situation. Showing its
:09:50. > :09:53.neck and neck. The telephone poles, which everybody seems to regard as
:09:54. > :10:05.the most accurate measure, they have shown significant... Haven't they
:10:06. > :10:07.shown the leeside narrowing the gap. This is the fundamental disadvantage
:10:08. > :10:13.they have, consistently in elections in this country we see there is
:10:14. > :10:18.innate bias towards the status quo. Ford believes side to have a chance,
:10:19. > :10:23.they need to very quickly start posting double-digit lead. -- for
:10:24. > :10:35.the Lee side. That would need to offset it. -- Leave. I understand
:10:36. > :10:40.the argument about the status quo, if we work to join, that would be a
:10:41. > :10:43.thumping know, if that is what the referendum was about, but the
:10:44. > :10:48.difference is this, the plus side is this, I don't think there is any
:10:49. > :10:51.doubt that the leave side has a bit of momentum, a bit of momentum over
:10:52. > :10:55.the last few weeks, but what is really interesting is the certainty
:10:56. > :11:01.of the vote, when you talk with people who are committed, they say,
:11:02. > :11:05.a sickly, if I have to be dragged on a stretcher, I'm going down to vote
:11:06. > :11:10.to leave, and there is more energy on our side, and passion, and the
:11:11. > :11:16.more people I speak with, who are just about Remain voters, they say
:11:17. > :11:20.their life is OK, they have paid the mortgage, but will they be motivated
:11:21. > :11:24.to go and vote? In the end it sounds obvious, it is those that turn out
:11:25. > :11:28.that win election. Will miss Jeremy Corbyn have got inspiration and
:11:29. > :11:33.motivation behind centre-left voters, which Remain needs to win,
:11:34. > :11:38.because Tory voters will split more Nigel Farage's Way, was that an
:11:39. > :11:43.inspiring, inspirational motivational speech yesterday?
:11:44. > :11:49.Jeremy Corbyn is only slightly marginally more Eurosceptic than
:11:50. > :11:55.Nigel! LAUGHTER What he has done is given people on
:11:56. > :12:04.the left licence to, if you like align themselves with David Cameron,
:12:05. > :12:08.and senior Tories. He spent most of the time bashing the government, he
:12:09. > :12:13.is entitled, news the Leader of the Opposition, I suppose. That is the
:12:14. > :12:22.fundamental thing, giving people the green light. Will you appear on vote
:12:23. > :12:27.leave platforms now? In fact, yes, one of our MEPs is appearing on that
:12:28. > :12:29.platform with Iain Duncan Smith, and Chris Grayling is coming on a
:12:30. > :12:35.grassroots out campaign platform with me and some others. Do you
:12:36. > :12:44.think you will win, as things stand? Yes. You call the election
:12:45. > :12:47.correctly, famously. I think, remain. Plenty of time to find out
:12:48. > :12:49.who is right and who is wrong, Nigel, stay with us, you will like
:12:50. > :12:52.this. Now, we've seen a lot of tactics
:12:53. > :12:56.employed on both sides rational argument,
:12:57. > :12:59.scaremongering and of But now a grassroots campaign group
:13:00. > :13:03.is using a new weapon, love. #hugabrit is asking EU citizens
:13:04. > :13:07.living in the UK to hug British people and then post
:13:08. > :13:09.the results on social media. It's been doing rather well
:13:10. > :13:12.on Twitter in recent days. This is Christine, who's German,
:13:13. > :13:28.hugging the musician Jarvis Cocker. He says he spends a lot of time
:13:29. > :13:31.in France but likes popping back to London for gigs
:13:32. > :13:34.and so is "completely against" And this is Katrin, another German,
:13:35. > :13:37.hugging the British Nigerian artist Yinka Shonibare, he says: "Wanting
:13:38. > :13:40.to leave is about clinging Not all the people being hugged
:13:41. > :13:45.are even alive. This is Geemette, who's French
:13:46. > :13:47.and clearly a fan of modernist literature, hugging
:13:48. > :13:53.a bust of Virginia Woolf. But most of the people
:13:54. > :13:56.being hugged aren't famous, it's mainly ordinary
:13:57. > :13:59.members of the public. This is Lina, from Lithuania,
:14:00. > :14:04.hugging her English friend Becky. And finally this is Birgit, who's
:14:05. > :14:06.also German, And as if by magic, Birgit Maass,
:14:07. > :14:24.who you'll recognise from that last How did this all come about? We
:14:25. > :14:27.wanted to do something positive, we do not want to do something that is
:14:28. > :14:32.patronising, telling the British people what to do, we just want to
:14:33. > :14:36.say, we are Europe, you are Europeans, we love you, do not leave
:14:37. > :14:42.us. How many pictures of people hugging have you gathered so far? It
:14:43. > :14:46.is really spread, a bit uncontrollable. We have more than
:14:47. > :14:50.100 for sure, but the website exploded and could not take on any
:14:51. > :14:54.more pictures. Home-made, grassroots, we do not have a budget,
:14:55. > :15:02.we are not aligned to any campaign, it does. We have built our own
:15:03. > :15:05.website, it was not easy, it has spread, people are sharing on
:15:06. > :15:13.Twitter and Instagram, it is hard to say how many we have for sure. How
:15:14. > :15:19.many citizens want Britain to stay? The rest of Europe, they love
:15:20. > :15:24.Britain, they want them to stay. Thinking of leaving Europe, people
:15:25. > :15:30.may say, yes, Europe is something different from you, but from our
:15:31. > :15:34.point of view. Just a bit! From our point of view, the EU is the
:15:35. > :15:38.structure that we have built, we have, for three generations, we have
:15:39. > :15:42.had piece, for me that is very important, I grew up with our
:15:43. > :15:45.grandfathers, I lost them in the war, for me, the EU, and for many
:15:46. > :15:52.other Europeans, this is what it is about. And so people are quite
:15:53. > :15:57.motivated. This is not "Project Fear", Nigel Farage. It's a
:15:58. > :16:01.conspiracy(!) LAUGHTER All this rubbish about not having
:16:02. > :16:05.budgets, I don't believe a word of it, it is conspiracy, it really is,
:16:06. > :16:10.I say this because, Jean-Claude Juncker on Tuesday this week try to
:16:11. > :16:13.hug me, I said, I am sorry, I am a bit old-fashioned about all of
:16:14. > :16:20.that... Clearly, this is a commission led initiative! I do not
:16:21. > :16:25.know where to begin... I do mean that...
:16:26. > :16:32.It is interesting to a say how good the European Union is. The euro has
:16:33. > :16:35.been wonderful for you. It has given you most of your growth over the
:16:36. > :16:41.last ten years, through increased exports. I suspect that if we had
:16:42. > :16:49.this conversation with people from Spain, Portugal, Cyprus or Greece,
:16:50. > :16:54.the point about the European project, not fighting each other,
:16:55. > :16:58.that takes my boxes, but economic and political union, that no-one has
:16:59. > :17:05.voted for, that is a different thing. I would argue that the EU is
:17:06. > :17:09.actually not working very at all. Let me just bring you back, because
:17:10. > :17:17.we are having and will have plenty of this. The British are famously
:17:18. > :17:21.not very tactile, unlike many of our European neighbours. Have you found
:17:22. > :17:27.any resistance? We have had a few awkward moments but most people that
:17:28. > :17:31.we have hugged, most of the reports we get, people are terribly polite
:17:32. > :17:35.and we have lived here for a long time, at least the core group, so we
:17:36. > :17:41.would not ambush people. There is not a hug squad are going out at
:17:42. > :17:49.night. It is only consensual. Would you like to give Nigel a hug? We did
:17:50. > :18:00.shake hands earlier. Go on, Nigel. This programme is the coffee and
:18:01. > :18:03.broadcasting. -- Kofi Annan. Thank you.
:18:04. > :18:05.Now - George Osborne has hailed as "groundbreaking" a new deal
:18:06. > :18:08.announced last night under which law enforcements agencies
:18:09. > :18:11.from the big five EU economies - including Britain -
:18:12. > :18:13.will share information on the true owners of companies,
:18:14. > :18:19.that will make it harder to evade tax.
:18:20. > :18:21.Earlier this week the the SNP criticised the government
:18:22. > :18:23.for devoting fewer resources to tackling tax fraud
:18:24. > :18:26.than to benefit fraud, though its figures have been
:18:27. > :18:28.challenged - but what are the public more concerned about?
:18:29. > :18:35.We sent Giles out with his balls to test the public mood.
:18:36. > :18:41.It is a political truth that most of us get wound up when we see people
:18:42. > :18:47.playing the system although it often depends on who we perceive to be
:18:48. > :18:51.doing the playing. But when it comes to tax or benefits, what upsets us
:18:52. > :18:54.more? People not paying as much tax as they could or should or people
:18:55. > :19:07.claiming more benefits than they should? The tax bid. It just as
:19:08. > :19:12.immoral. In fact, it's rather more immoral because people have
:19:13. > :19:17.desperate poverty, and they have a faint excuse. Otherwise, it's just
:19:18. > :19:23.greedy. Not paying your tax, that is also bad. But who is taking the
:19:24. > :19:28.benefits? Taxes also benefit. I think both are wrong but in the
:19:29. > :19:33.grand scheme of things, I think tax would probably be a lot more, with
:19:34. > :19:36.regards to proportion. I am one of those people, you have to give
:19:37. > :19:44.people the benefit of the doubt in a lot of ways with benefits. People
:19:45. > :19:47.know it is wrong to avoid tax. Definitely people but take more
:19:48. > :19:53.benefits than they should. Definitely. White of the two, both
:19:54. > :19:59.considered to be morally wrong? Why does that wind you up more? Because
:20:00. > :20:05.I am a big worker and I pay loads of tax. I would say people not paying
:20:06. > :20:09.taxes. That is a difficult one. I think you are right, I think the tax
:20:10. > :20:18.issue. We have a moral responsibility to pay tax. Ready,
:20:19. > :20:23.steady, go. Benefits are for those people who deserve it, 100%. Tax is
:20:24. > :20:28.for people that pay it if they need to and if they avoid it, that is
:20:29. > :20:34.perfectly legitimate. My premise was people claiming to many benefits.
:20:35. > :20:39.Well, that is knotty. In his bid to make a point about benefits, one man
:20:40. > :20:43.put in a lot of balls. We counted, there were 16. I have to take out
:20:44. > :20:52.15. Hold on, this could take some time. 15. I sympathise with not
:20:53. > :20:57.wanting to pay taxes. Do you know why that is? Is it an emotional
:20:58. > :21:02.reaction? I think it is an emotional reaction and may be a rebellion
:21:03. > :21:10.against, I don't know, the man. Don't pay the man? Very firmly, you
:21:11. > :21:16.put the ball in the tax box. Socking it to the man. We have a
:21:17. > :21:20.responsibility to pay our taxes, fair and square, not too much, not
:21:21. > :21:25.too little, what is appropriate. A tricky results to analyse. Benefits,
:21:26. > :21:28.just ahead, but here is the interesting thing. The people who
:21:29. > :21:33.found that benefit fraud was more morally wrong tended to be less well
:21:34. > :21:37.off. The people who felt that tax avoidance was wrong tended to be the
:21:38. > :21:43.better off. Make of that what you will.
:21:44. > :21:45.I hope he went back to pick them up and didn't just leave them outside
:21:46. > :21:48.Charing Cross station. I'm joined now by the Chair
:21:49. > :21:52.of the Public Accounts Committee, Her committee has said this
:21:53. > :21:56.morning that the government is "not doing enough" to tackle
:21:57. > :22:02.the estimated ?16 billion cost Welcome to the programme. Your
:22:03. > :22:07.committee says that at any one time HMRC is investigating around 35
:22:08. > :22:12.wealthy individuals for tax evasion. Were you surprised by that figure?
:22:13. > :22:17.As a committee, for a one time we wanted them to take firm action
:22:18. > :22:20.against people to use them as an example. But what is interesting
:22:21. > :22:25.here is that they have been given funding so that they will be able to
:22:26. > :22:28.investigate 100 by 20 20. If they could investigate 100 but they do
:22:29. > :22:38.not have the resources, why are they not been given the resources? And
:22:39. > :22:41.how many of the 35 result in prosecution is? No, and it is a
:22:42. > :22:45.moving thing because when they get a result, then they will do it. --
:22:46. > :22:53.result in prosecutions. This has been a running issue. But if they do
:22:54. > :22:57.not prosecute, sometimes have they taken the view that, well, we could
:22:58. > :23:03.prosecute but it could take ages and the result could be uncertain? Or we
:23:04. > :23:06.could do a deal now and we would get a chunk of change. That is partly
:23:07. > :23:11.why we have a disagreement as a committee. You do not think they
:23:12. > :23:14.should do that? We recognise that sometimes they might be grounds for
:23:15. > :23:17.that but we think the lack of prosecutions is woefully inadequate
:23:18. > :23:24.and does not set the right tone for the taxpayer. And that means also
:23:25. > :23:29.that tax fraudsters think they can get away with it. The committee
:23:30. > :23:31.claims that the current modus operandi of HMRC creates the
:23:32. > :23:36.impression that the rich can get away with tax fraud, is that right?
:23:37. > :23:40.There is a perception of that. We get a lot of correspondence about
:23:41. > :23:44.tax. There is that the general perception. We think this is perhaps
:23:45. > :23:51.the difference between HMRC having a minister to read it and a committee
:23:52. > :23:55.led by politicians. We think there is the need for examples to be set.
:23:56. > :23:59.But we recognise that these guys, the ones who really defraud the
:24:00. > :24:03.system, they have a lot of expense of advice and go to great lengths to
:24:04. > :24:07.hide it. It is a lengthy and expensive process to investigate.
:24:08. > :24:11.But we're glad to see the extra money going in and we hope to see
:24:12. > :24:18.more high profile results as a result. Let's look at the deal with
:24:19. > :24:21.big economies like France and Germany that George Osborne has
:24:22. > :24:26.announced, meant to facilitate better exchange of information and
:24:27. > :24:31.account details and company details between of these five economies
:24:32. > :24:37.only. Mr Osborne described it as ground-breaking. In what way is it?
:24:38. > :24:40.I would describe it as a good step in the right direction but not
:24:41. > :24:46.ground-breaking. Hopefully we will see it snowballing. It takes more
:24:47. > :24:50.than one hammer to crack a nut and we have a long way to go. Hopefully
:24:51. > :24:54.others will follow suit but it is too early to say. If it includes
:24:55. > :24:59.companies like France and Germany, which are broadly the same in terms
:25:00. > :25:07.of tax rules and tax collecting systems as we do. If you have a
:25:08. > :25:11.company in Germany, whether it is in your name or of beneficial
:25:12. > :25:15.ownership, you will be paying tax in Germany, so how does it make much
:25:16. > :25:22.difference? Let's be clear, we know that in terms of tax avoidance,
:25:23. > :25:28.there are plenty of multinationals that avoid paying tax in a lot of
:25:29. > :25:33.places. So this is more for big companies? This is about beneficial
:25:34. > :25:38.ownership. But we know that those are public companies. The beneficial
:25:39. > :25:44.ownership is a way of masking where the benefits are. But if you are
:25:45. > :25:51.company, even if it done behind beneficial ownership, masked in
:25:52. > :25:58.French or Germany, that will not matter to the German authorities
:25:59. > :26:01.because you will be paying tax. In a couple of months, we will find out
:26:02. > :26:04.what difference it makes. The Chancellor has called for the rest
:26:05. > :26:09.of the G20 to get on board. I was looking at the list and that
:26:10. > :26:12.includes China and Saudi Arabia. How quickly will that happen? That is
:26:13. > :26:18.why I am saying it is a good step in the right direction, but unless you
:26:19. > :26:25.have every country, it is still a challenge. Those countries tend to
:26:26. > :26:29.cooperate with the tax authorities anyway. Despite the argy-bargy with
:26:30. > :26:33.the frontbenchers, is it true to say that there is a large measure of
:26:34. > :26:36.political consensus between the mainstream parties on what needs to
:26:37. > :26:41.be done to tackle what has been called the tax gap, the bit that
:26:42. > :26:45.we're losing through either evasion or aggressive tax avoidance? That is
:26:46. > :26:49.the distinction. Certainly, there is a consensus in terms of evasion. I
:26:50. > :26:54.think as we saw with the debate last week, is when it comes into the
:26:55. > :26:59.terms of avoidance that the political gap starts to emerge. But
:27:00. > :27:03.the Chancellor has been outspoken. He has, but what George Osborne
:27:04. > :27:06.would define as tax avoidance and what John McDonnell would describe
:27:07. > :27:10.as tax avoidance are different things as we saw last week. I
:27:11. > :27:14.thought what was interesting was that the government was on the back
:27:15. > :27:21.foot significantly when the issue was tax evasion. When the debate
:27:22. > :27:25.shifted to tax avoidance, they became more confident of their
:27:26. > :27:27.political footing. We will see how this progresses. Please come back
:27:28. > :27:30.and report to us. Happy to do so. The issue of sexism in the workplace
:27:31. > :27:33.has reared its ugly head again. And this time, the workplace
:27:34. > :27:36.is in the palace of Westminster. On Tuesday morning, the Spectator
:27:37. > :27:41.journalist Isabel Hardman Her tweets stirred
:27:42. > :28:10.up a twitter storm, receiving many comments
:28:11. > :28:11.from supporters but Amongst them Isabel Oakeshott,
:28:12. > :28:21.who as well as writing Since then Hardman has
:28:22. > :28:29.since received a private apology from the unnamed individual,
:28:30. > :28:31.who is described as being But this hasn't put
:28:32. > :28:35.the issue to bed. With us is now is Laura Perrins,
:28:36. > :28:38.co-editor of Conservative Woman and Catherine Mayer,
:28:39. > :28:49.journalist and founder Welcome to you both. It is 2016. MPs
:28:50. > :28:54.should not be saying to female journalists, I want to talk to the
:28:55. > :28:58.totty. It is going to be a very long life if every time a man pays a
:28:59. > :29:03.woman a component in the workplace, a Twitter storm is going to be
:29:04. > :29:08.started. You think it is a component to call somebody totty? We know the
:29:09. > :29:14.words that was used. Is it a condiment? The point is, this idea
:29:15. > :29:19.that men might find a woman attractive in the workplace,
:29:20. > :29:24.suddenly they cannot take her seriously professionally, this is a
:29:25. > :29:29.misguided idea. We live, as you say, in 2016, and men and women are
:29:30. > :29:33.working together increasingly. Men can still be attracted to women but
:29:34. > :29:38.in the -- at the same time, they can still take them seriously
:29:39. > :29:44.professionally. If you are offended by what a colleague may say in front
:29:45. > :29:48.of another colleague, I think what you should do is pull them up on it
:29:49. > :29:53.there and then, and say, listen, I actually don't think that is on. I
:29:54. > :29:57.find that offensive. And see if he apologises. By going to the whips
:29:58. > :30:01.office, you are basically forcing an apology out of him, which is not
:30:02. > :30:06.worth anything. It is like standing over a child and saying, you better
:30:07. > :30:11.apologise or I will take your toys away. It is not an apology. Let's do
:30:12. > :30:15.this in two parts. The appropriateness of the word and the
:30:16. > :30:21.response. How offended would you be by the words totty? For one thing, I
:30:22. > :30:25.find it hilarious that we are discussing the appropriateness of
:30:26. > :30:35.her response when clearly his comment was possibly inappropriate.
:30:36. > :30:39.Just possibly? It is just silly. Was it inappropriate? It was
:30:40. > :30:43.inappropriate in the sense that all that kind of casual sexism in the
:30:44. > :30:48.workplace is inappropriate. But I spent 30 years as a journalist and I
:30:49. > :30:52.understand exactly the response that is no response, brush it over, just
:30:53. > :30:58.deal with it in person, but that is precisely how you enable that
:30:59. > :31:02.culture. So I cheer what she did. Not because I felt she needed to do
:31:03. > :31:06.it from a position of personal weakness, because she could not cope
:31:07. > :31:10.with it in some way herself, but precisely because she was trying to
:31:11. > :31:14.change the workplace culture for other journalists and other women.
:31:15. > :31:17.What do you say to Laura's point that a more appropriate response
:31:18. > :31:23.would have been to have gone up to them and say, don't dare use that
:31:24. > :31:27.word with me. That is why I am laughing about discussing the
:31:28. > :31:30.appropriateness of her response. Any response she had made would have
:31:31. > :31:36.been appropriate in that context. But what would have been more
:31:37. > :31:41.appropriate? What Isabel did or what Laura is suggesting? I think what
:31:42. > :31:45.Laura is suggesting does not tackle the underlying culture. What Isabel
:31:46. > :31:51.did has the benefit of shining a spotlight onto it and why it is a
:31:52. > :31:56.generating debate. The MP in question said, I want to speak to
:31:57. > :32:00.the totty. My idea of sexism is saying, I don't want to speak to you
:32:01. > :32:03.because you are woman and I am not taking you seriously. I think it
:32:04. > :32:08.would have been worse if he had said it behind her back. It may have been
:32:09. > :32:10.ham-fisted. But he did not say he wanted to speak to her because she
:32:11. > :32:13.is one of the best informed political journalists in the
:32:14. > :32:16.country, which he is. He said he wanted to speak to using a word that
:32:17. > :32:24.referred to her looks. point you are assuming that he does
:32:25. > :32:27.not take her seriously, that is a massive assumption, he is saying
:32:28. > :32:31.that he wants to talk to her, in a ham-fisted way, she should have
:32:32. > :32:34.pulled him up on it there and then, not gone to Twitter and Twitter
:32:35. > :32:40.shamed him. We all know his name would have come out, even though she
:32:41. > :32:43.has not said it. The second point, as I said, if every sort of
:32:44. > :32:47.interaction between a manned and a woman is going to be sat down in the
:32:48. > :32:52.workplace as sexist, it is going to be a very long life! This is a
:32:53. > :33:00.culture of not taking women seriously. She is an extremely...
:33:01. > :33:04.What...? She is extremely... Shall we ask the beefcake? LAUGHTER
:33:05. > :33:13.That is quite inappropriate! LAUGHTER
:33:14. > :33:21.Hearing in slices on this is fairly familiar... (!) on both sides of the
:33:22. > :33:23.debate, not just a gender clash but a generational clash, different
:33:24. > :33:27.opinions, the reality is that there is a new generation of female
:33:28. > :33:31.journalists in the lobby, like Isabel, and whether or not people
:33:32. > :33:34.think it is innocent or not innocent, they are not going to put
:33:35. > :33:40.up with the sort of rubbish that women did in the 1960s... 20, 30
:33:41. > :33:44.years ago. I have been a journalist for such a long time, this is why
:33:45. > :33:49.this matters, when I started I thought this would be eradicated,
:33:50. > :33:52.the point is that it is still perpetuating, young journalists are
:33:53. > :33:58.having to put up with it, does it matter, yes it does because it
:33:59. > :34:04.matters in terms of the journalistic output... I think what we are seeing
:34:05. > :34:09.is they are experiencing what Isabel has demonstrated, she will not put
:34:10. > :34:16.up with it. It has got marginally better... Surely it has got better.
:34:17. > :34:21.I can certainly testified to ongoing problems... I do not know any female
:34:22. > :34:25.journalists who have not experienced harassment by colleagues or
:34:26. > :34:31.interviewees. Even in the house of parliament. We must leave it there.
:34:32. > :34:35.Coming up in a moment it's our regular look at what's been
:34:36. > :34:42.For now it's time to say goodbye to my guest of the day.
:34:43. > :34:45.So for the next half an hour we're going to be focussing on Europe.
:34:46. > :34:48.We'll be discussing the proposed crackdown on tax avoidance
:34:49. > :34:50.in Europe, a deal to share airline passenger details with the police
:34:51. > :34:53.and security services and what a Brexit could mean
:34:54. > :34:56.First though here's our guide to the latest from Europe,
:34:57. > :35:05.VOICEOVER: Responding to the Panama Papers Revelation, the EU announced
:35:06. > :35:09.on the measures on tax avoidance, leaving big businesses with nowhere
:35:10. > :35:12.to hide, forcing them to declare how much corporation tax they pay
:35:13. > :35:19.outside of the EU, including in tax havens. The migrant crisis goes on,
:35:20. > :35:24.with Italian coastguards rescuing 4000 migrants in just two days,
:35:25. > :35:28.Austria has strengthened its border controls, causing tensions between
:35:29. > :35:31.bureaucrats and member states. This is EU officials including Council
:35:32. > :35:35.President Donald Tusk appeared in front of MEPs on Wednesday, to
:35:36. > :35:42.defend the controversial deal to return migrants to Turkey. Testers
:35:43. > :35:46.in Paris spent a second week sleeping out in the Place de la
:35:47. > :35:51.Republique, expressing anger over labour reforms. That Occupy is.
:35:52. > :35:56.British MEPs say Jamaal, perhaps did not mean to be caught making this
:35:57. > :36:11.rather rude hand gesture, during the European Parliament session. --
:36:12. > :36:13.Saeed Jamal. -- the protest -- protesters.
:36:14. > :36:15.And with us for the next thirty minutes I've been
:36:16. > :36:17.joined by two MEPs - the Conservative, Timothy Kirkhope
:36:18. > :36:22.Let's take a look at one of those stories in more detail,
:36:23. > :36:26.that's the EU's efforts to crackdown on tax avoidance and evasion
:36:27. > :36:32.They are saying that the corporation should include details of what is
:36:33. > :36:38.operating in tax havens if they want to trade with the EU. The right
:36:39. > :36:42.thing to do? It is right that we should have far more transparency,
:36:43. > :36:47.there is an understanding that there has been real concerns over tax
:36:48. > :36:52.havens, wherever they may be, and I am very encouraged by not only the
:36:53. > :36:57.attitude that we are taking in Europe but also Chancellor George
:36:58. > :37:01.Osborne with his colleagues, and the meeting at the IMF. Is the EU sure,
:37:02. > :37:07.that it has done enough about tax havens, in its missed, I think of
:37:08. > :37:11.Luxembourg, even, some people say Ireland. It has made progress, one
:37:12. > :37:15.of the problems we have, of course, as conservatives, we do not want to
:37:16. > :37:20.see tax harmonisation is coming in on the back of this crackdown. We
:37:21. > :37:24.need to separate the two. That is one of the reasons why we sometimes
:37:25. > :37:27.have difficulty with some of the things put forward, the proposal
:37:28. > :37:31.from the commission and the European Parliament. We have no objection to
:37:32. > :37:34.an international system where countries get together to do this
:37:35. > :37:38.kind of thing, most tax havens are moving outside of the Unocha. Vonage
:37:39. > :37:43.and Steyn, and Switzerland, because the EU are begin to clamp down on
:37:44. > :37:47.them. The danger is that if you do not have an international system,
:37:48. > :37:59.they move out and do their business elsewhere. -- outside of the EU.
:38:00. > :38:05.From Lytton Steyn. -- list and Steyn. Has the EU fade a role in
:38:06. > :38:08.beginning best practice, in doing things which we know cannot be
:38:09. > :38:13.resolved in a European level alone, but it has started the ball rolling.
:38:14. > :38:21.The EU is not supposed to be concerned in taxes, it is meant to
:38:22. > :38:28.be one of the red lines. When the EU does anything it is all about
:38:29. > :38:32.long-term ambitions. It may initially seem like a good thing,
:38:33. > :38:38.but we have got a look at the longer plans. The use should not look to
:38:39. > :38:43.see if member states are able to gather tax revenues that is their
:38:44. > :38:50.due? It is something that should be done on an international level. --
:38:51. > :38:56.the EU. You will only have a partial solution if Russia and the US are
:38:57. > :39:01.not in it. This shows a good example to the world, the fact we have five
:39:02. > :39:10.Nations agreed on taking much stronger steps to avoid this tax
:39:11. > :39:14.evasion. It will not be as ground-breaking as the Chancellor is
:39:15. > :39:19.trying to make out. The is a very good starting point, a good example
:39:20. > :39:25.of working together. One of the ways in which you can avoid tax
:39:26. > :39:28.avoidance, aggressive taxation, flat tax system, simple and easy of the
:39:29. > :39:30.people to understand and then people will be more willing to pay their
:39:31. > :39:35.taxes. Now, MEPs voted this week to set up
:39:36. > :39:39.a joint system for police and justice officials to access
:39:40. > :39:41.airline passenger data, covering Passenger Name Record
:39:42. > :39:45.data includes names, contact details, itinerary,
:39:46. > :39:47.the credit card used for payment and baggage information,
:39:48. > :39:49.along with passport details. It will not include a person's
:39:50. > :39:51.race or ethnic origin, religion, political opinion,
:39:52. > :39:53.trade union membership, This data is routinely
:39:54. > :39:55.collected by airlines, but the EU is planning to set up
:39:56. > :39:58."Passenger Information Units" in each EU member state to collect
:39:59. > :40:09.the information instead. The units will be able to keep this
:40:10. > :40:13.data for up to five years, and can pass the data on to law
:40:14. > :40:16.enforcement officials only in cases Critics are concerned over privacy
:40:17. > :40:23.and the length of time the data can be stored for,
:40:24. > :40:25.but supporters argue that it is important
:40:26. > :40:28.to have a "common high standard", and that this is less
:40:29. > :40:46.information than you would give High-flyer a lot the United States
:40:47. > :40:53.you have to give all of this advance passenger information, and that goes
:40:54. > :40:56.to the US border force. -- I fly a lot to the United States. If there
:40:57. > :41:00.was something dodgy, they would stop me going to the United States before
:41:01. > :41:03.I even got on the aeroplane. A lot of people will be surprised that
:41:04. > :41:08.does not happen in Europe. This is my report, I have been working on it
:41:09. > :41:11.for five years. Having to deal with quite a lot of opposition, mostly
:41:12. > :41:15.based on the fact that individual data and privacy is something that
:41:16. > :41:19.obviously we are concerned about but some groups believe that take Robert
:41:20. > :41:22.Lee over security. We have an agreement with the United States,
:41:23. > :41:29.three years ago we entered into that. We being the youth. Yes, that
:41:30. > :41:32.is the only way in which you can operate. The Americans would not let
:41:33. > :41:37.you fly otherwise. International crime is international, terrorism
:41:38. > :41:41.does not respect borders, but patterns of activity, which is what
:41:42. > :41:43.these proposals are designed to deal with, patterns of activity are
:41:44. > :41:47.enormously important for intelligence agencies and police, I
:41:48. > :41:53.am delighted that we got the votes this week to get them. Parliament
:41:54. > :41:58.finally approved, there had been resistance. Five years, it has taken
:41:59. > :42:01.ten years of my life! It is now through, it is not a silver bullet
:42:02. > :42:05.but it is an important tool to give us greater security when we travel,
:42:06. > :42:12.not only when we travel but also on the ground. Quite a large section of
:42:13. > :42:17.the parliament are against it, 179 MEPs... Almost one third voted
:42:18. > :42:22.against it. Including yourself. Did you vote against it? I did indeed,
:42:23. > :42:25.we have a passenger name recognition system in the UK which we share with
:42:26. > :42:29.other people and other countries have systems they share, this gives
:42:30. > :42:34.an enormous amount of personal information, which on the basis of
:42:35. > :42:38.common recognition, which means that week except that all European Union
:42:39. > :42:43.countries are on any call footing, we give information to
:42:44. > :42:46.institutionally corrupt countries like Romania and Bulgaria, we do not
:42:47. > :42:51.think that is a good idea, who knows what they can do with it. We even
:42:52. > :42:54.know in this country that government-held information on
:42:55. > :43:00.citizens often goes amiss. It is true, they can lose it, but how can
:43:01. > :43:11.they miss use it? Criminal purposes, if someone can gain access. --
:43:12. > :43:16.misuse. This is quite ridiculous, I have got to dispute this, because
:43:17. > :43:20.the EU is in the title, that is why he voted against it, we have very
:43:21. > :43:24.tight safeguards, quality standards, a lot of them based on the British
:43:25. > :43:28.system, which has been in existence, but instead of these ridiculous
:43:29. > :43:32.slow-moving bilaterals to get information about suspicious people
:43:33. > :43:35.travelling, from now on, and it is very strict rules and controls we
:43:36. > :43:40.will be able to move information fast, as fast as terrorists can move
:43:41. > :43:45.much and that is the key. We have got to do it together. Terrorist
:43:46. > :43:49.have moved on, they realise they can be trapped in this way, we have seen
:43:50. > :43:52.in the Harris attacks and Brussels attacks that is how they do it.
:43:53. > :43:58.Chain and open borders, that is the biggest problem, that people can
:43:59. > :44:06.move across Europe freely and get in on forged papers. -- Paris attacks.
:44:07. > :44:11.It is perfectly true that if you... If you close one area, it can open
:44:12. > :44:15.other areas, but it is not a reason for doing it, it has worked pretty
:44:16. > :44:20.well on the trans-Atlantic side of things, between the Uganda America,
:44:21. > :44:24.should we not... If we are better protected that way, as we crossed
:44:25. > :44:30.the Atlantic, should we not have the equivalent safeguards, if I fly from
:44:31. > :44:34.Nice to Berlin. We do it with countries that we can trust. We
:44:35. > :44:40.cannot trust all of the countries in the EU, let me give you a point
:44:41. > :44:43.which illustrates this. About this common recognition fallacy. European
:44:44. > :44:46.arrest warrant, anybody can be shipped off to any other country on
:44:47. > :45:00.the strength of a piece of paper, the European Court of Human
:45:01. > :45:03.Rights I think it was has recently adjusted a judgment where we cannot
:45:04. > :45:06.send people back from Britain, to serve their sentence in their own
:45:07. > :45:08.country, because of human rights. This common recognition thing, it is
:45:09. > :45:11.not all of the same level. Is it necessary for the authorities to
:45:12. > :45:13.keep the data for five years. It is made anonymous after six months,
:45:14. > :45:16.people have not called on that, it becomes statistically important but
:45:17. > :45:22.not statistically. -- statistically but not specifically. What does that
:45:23. > :45:25.mean? Intelligence agencies are looking at patterns, and developing
:45:26. > :45:29.patterns, this is the key to intelligence. You would know that I
:45:30. > :45:34.had made a trip but you would not know it was me. You knew that trips
:45:35. > :45:38.were making certain routes, you mention going to a European city
:45:39. > :45:42.from outside, what people are doing and will continue to do is to do an
:45:43. > :45:47.indirect set of travel, maybe from Istanbul to Stockholm to Madrid to
:45:48. > :45:52.Berlin, maybe to attack Paris or London. I think that our own system
:45:53. > :45:56.has been very successful, but it is having to rely upon bilaterals
:45:57. > :46:02.occasionally, it is not good enough to try to deal with the modern
:46:03. > :46:05.threats that we have. When does it coming? Very quickly, within two
:46:06. > :46:09.years. I'm hoping that we will be operating a lot of it within months.
:46:10. > :46:12.Now, David Cameron called it a "once in a generation" decision.
:46:13. > :46:14.Should we stay in the European Union?
:46:15. > :46:17.Will we still have access to the single market?
:46:18. > :46:19.If we leave would we be able to curb migration?
:46:20. > :46:22.But perhaps some of those people most affected by the decision
:46:23. > :46:24.are the two million Brits living on the continent,
:46:25. > :46:27.many of whom won't be able to vote in the upcoming referendum.
:46:28. > :46:38.Our Adam Fleming has been to Malta to meet some of them.
:46:39. > :46:45.These are celebrating the UK leaving. -- the Maltese. It is the
:46:46. > :46:49.freak and a bank holiday commemorating the moment in 1979
:46:50. > :46:55.when British troops left to these islands. -- freedom and a bank
:46:56. > :47:00.holiday. But in truth, the Brits never really left. There are 12,000
:47:01. > :47:03.of them still living here. Come with me to meet some of them. Amanda
:47:04. > :47:08.thinks the European Union makes sense for trade but she worked on an
:47:09. > :47:12.EU project of the did not seem like value for money, leaving her
:47:13. > :47:18.conflicted. I have benefited from working and living across the EU. I
:47:19. > :47:23.like to travel across the EU. And then I am kind of thinking, as
:47:24. > :47:29.humans we like the status quo, we tend towards that. So I do need to
:47:30. > :47:32.just check what I'm taking for granted, and the assumptions I am
:47:33. > :47:37.making, that they actually make sense. Some longer term residents
:47:38. > :47:41.like Peter cannot vote because they have lived abroad for more than 15
:47:42. > :47:46.years. I am actually quite annoyed about it. I would like to have some
:47:47. > :47:52.say. I am still paying tax in the UK and I have always paid them there. I
:47:53. > :47:56.think perhaps I should have a vote. Among other retirees, the arguments
:47:57. > :48:01.sound just like the ones you would hear in the pub back home. I don't
:48:02. > :48:05.know what I want to know about it. I feel that the politicians, the ones
:48:06. > :48:11.that come out are telling you the scaremongering about staying in, and
:48:12. > :48:14.the ones that want you to stay in our scaremongering about coming out.
:48:15. > :48:23.You are getting bad points on both sides. My gut reaction is better the
:48:24. > :48:26.devil you know, stay in. We like to obey the laws, but sometimes a lot
:48:27. > :48:32.of the things that are coming out, the red tape and everything coming
:48:33. > :48:36.out, it seems to be making things up as they go along sometimes. You
:48:37. > :48:42.think of the UK should be making its own laws but you have actually left
:48:43. > :48:51.the UK. But the reason I left, I go back very often and I am very loyal,
:48:52. > :48:56.by the way. I am a royalist. There are a few exclusively expat worries.
:48:57. > :49:00.I had a look on the internet and one of the things they were talking
:49:01. > :49:06.about, the retirement pension, they might have to frees that, and they
:49:07. > :49:13.might not give you any of the increases over the years, like we do
:49:14. > :49:19.in England. That is all I am worried about, my pension. An Freedom Day,
:49:20. > :49:23.the Maltese prime minister visits this memorial. He has tried to be
:49:24. > :49:29.reassuring. He says that British people's health care in Malta is
:49:30. > :49:34.covered by an agreement by the two countries signed before either was
:49:35. > :49:38.in the EU, and the tax system is generous to foreign inventions. And
:49:39. > :49:42.this Swiss law firm is not getting calls from worried Brits in Malta.
:49:43. > :49:48.Instead, it is worried Brits in Britain. Generally, these are people
:49:49. > :49:52.living in London, British or otherwise, and for them that is the
:49:53. > :49:55.European capital of financial services. Previously, they relied on
:49:56. > :50:01.London being not only London but also part of the European Union, and
:50:02. > :50:05.now they will need to look for another central European city which
:50:06. > :50:12.is friendly to financial services and generally pro-business. Of
:50:13. > :50:16.course, Malta offers more than that, the mild climate and the sun and the
:50:17. > :50:20.sea and the General Mediterranean way of life. Malta has obvious links
:50:21. > :50:28.with the UK, making people here seem pretty relaxed about the referendum.
:50:29. > :50:30.Globally, just 106,000 expats are on the electoral roll, which suggests
:50:31. > :50:38.that their postal votes will not have a massive impact on the result.
:50:39. > :50:43.Should British expats who are living in the EU and still British
:50:44. > :50:49.citizens, should they have the vote in this referendum? I would have
:50:50. > :50:52.liked them to have had the vote. But I don't think they are. I don't
:50:53. > :50:57.think they will change the voting system for this. I really would have
:50:58. > :51:01.been a good idea for them to have something to say because they are a
:51:02. > :51:07.component, living in Europe, and they are British. Do you think they
:51:08. > :51:12.should? The cut-off was 15 years ago, I personally would not have too
:51:13. > :51:17.much trouble... Explain that, you think if you have been away for 15
:51:18. > :51:20.years, you lose the right to vote? I think that is a fair point. I would
:51:21. > :51:26.not have an objection to them voting if they had recently left. For the
:51:27. > :51:37.expats we saw there in Malta, and there are many more in Spain and
:51:38. > :51:42.France, if we were to leave, are they not right to be worried about
:51:43. > :51:52.their residency status and access to health care and so on? The macro no,
:51:53. > :51:55.because there have always been Brits living abroad. There are two and a
:51:56. > :52:05.half times as many foreign people living in Britain then in the EU. --
:52:06. > :52:08.than British people living in the EU. We're certainly not going to do
:52:09. > :52:12.anything to the Europeans living in our country, and as for health
:52:13. > :52:17.services, we have reciprocal arrangements already, or we had them
:52:18. > :52:21.before. And there is no reason why it shouldn't. This is what you
:52:22. > :52:24.always say, Jeremy, there is no reason why this should not be. I
:52:25. > :52:30.would say that actually there is a lot of reasoning why it would not
:52:31. > :52:35.be. We are not part of the EU, if we're not we are essentially at the
:52:36. > :52:38.mercy of different states. Malta may have a positive attitude because of
:52:39. > :52:43.its history with Britain, but a lot of other countries do not and will
:52:44. > :52:46.not. And I think therefore it is irrational in to tell the public
:52:47. > :52:54.that it should be all right on the night. I don't know. -- it is a very
:52:55. > :52:57.rash thing to tell the public. A lot of European countries do not have
:52:58. > :53:01.equivalent health services. You have to pay or have insurance in Greece.
:53:02. > :53:05.In terms of the arrangement we have got, Britain pays far more out to
:53:06. > :53:12.the European Union and we get back in terms of this. Recent figures
:53:13. > :53:16.show that we have spent about ?683 million in the EU, while we got ?50
:53:17. > :53:25.million back. It is published figures. Was that in your manifesto?
:53:26. > :53:30.You think nothing will really change? Why would it. I think it is
:53:31. > :53:36.a massive danger. It is not scaremongering, it is reality.
:53:37. > :53:38.Now it's one of the EU's smallest countries,
:53:39. > :53:43.but its size perhaps belies its influence.
:53:44. > :53:45.It's the home of the European Court of Justice
:53:46. > :53:48.Jean Claude Juncker, is President of the
:53:49. > :54:01.Adam's been to meet the neighbours in Luxembourg.
:54:02. > :54:09.In morning at the stables, except it is actually the airport.
:54:10. > :54:14.Luxembourg's freight only airline, the biggest of its kind in Europe,
:54:15. > :54:22.specialises in transporting expensive courses. Around 3000 a
:54:23. > :54:26.year. At thousands of euros each. The horses travel in this specially
:54:27. > :54:32.designed container. Wood shavings on the ground so it feels like a stable
:54:33. > :54:36.back home. And the door, so that the groom can check on the animals
:54:37. > :54:43.during the flight. There is a groom on hand all time, along with food,
:54:44. > :54:48.water and a vet at each end of the flight. We have to stop at
:54:49. > :54:55.Prestwick, LA, Seattle and Calgary. When will they arise in Canada?
:54:56. > :55:01.Tomorrow in the afternoon, I think. -- when will they arise. It is quite
:55:02. > :55:05.a long flight. And it is not just horses. The company has flown
:55:06. > :55:09.forces, a giraffe and even a quail. All of this is very Luxembourg.
:55:10. > :55:14.Looking after assets for fairly wealthy people who live elsewhere. A
:55:15. > :55:19.tradition that has made this tiny country very big news. Two years
:55:20. > :55:23.ago, a cache of documents showed that hundreds of multi national
:55:24. > :55:32.companies enjoyed minuscule tax rates here, a scandal that came to
:55:33. > :55:36.be known as Luxleaks. I went to this town to meet the mayor, also the
:55:37. > :55:40.general secretary of the Christian social People's party, which has
:55:41. > :55:44.provided most of Luxembourg's leaders since the Second World War.
:55:45. > :55:48.Are you worried that Luxembourg sometimes looks like the pan of
:55:49. > :55:58.Europe? I hope they do not see us as that. Because we are not the Panama
:55:59. > :56:03.of Europe. Of course, our affairs might not look quite right, but a
:56:04. > :56:08.lot of things have changed, and I think when we compare ourselves with
:56:09. > :56:17.London, we do not have to be ashamed of ourselves. Ouch. He is also pals
:56:18. > :56:22.with Jean-Claude Juncker, now president of the European
:56:23. > :56:38.commission. So what do you do the night around the youngers? --
:56:39. > :56:42.Junkers. You have a ball, with... Jean-Claude Juncker is a fan of
:56:43. > :56:47.pinball machines? He likes to play. And as for our four-legged friends,
:56:48. > :56:56.they are ready for take-off to Canada I hope they pay attention to
:56:57. > :57:01.the city information. Many of the companies that would criticise for
:57:02. > :57:05.not paying tax are not doing so because they are based in Luxembourg
:57:06. > :57:08.and many of these arrangements were put in place by Jean-Claude Juncker
:57:09. > :57:15.when he was Bannister. Are we right to be suspicious? I think the Brits
:57:16. > :57:19.having natural inclination to be suspicious. -- when he was
:57:20. > :57:22.Bannister. I think the way that this is moving does not favour anybody
:57:23. > :57:29.because it happens to be the place where he used to live. But it is a
:57:30. > :57:33.poacher turned gamekeeper situation, the man who presided over this is
:57:34. > :57:38.now the man cleaning it up. It is incredible. A slight irony, perhaps.
:57:39. > :57:41.We were using the European Parliament when this subject came up
:57:42. > :57:46.because Mr Yunker at presided over all of this when he was Bannister.
:57:47. > :57:51.And now he's telling the rest of Europe to clean up their act. -- Mr
:57:52. > :57:59.Juncker. And now Luxembourg is the HQ of the European union. They get
:58:00. > :58:03.an enormous amount of money out of the EU. And there is a third
:58:04. > :58:08.Parliament that nobody knows about, mothballs, but which we are paying
:58:09. > :58:13.millions for the upkeep of. A lot of people have a lot of nostalgia for
:58:14. > :58:18.Luxembourg. I remember silver sea and margarine, Saturday night out.
:58:19. > :58:23.It was a wonderful programme. What does that had to do with Company is
:58:24. > :58:28.not paying their taxes? I don't know. I don't know what happens to
:58:29. > :58:32.radio Luxembourg. -- companies not paying their taxes. It is still a
:58:33. > :58:39.place where the tax is very low. It is. And companies will therefore go
:58:40. > :58:43.there until something is done. Of course, we are in favour of having a
:58:44. > :58:46.competitive tax system in Europe and hopefully our system will attract a
:58:47. > :58:53.lot of people to Britain. As long as we are in the EU. We will leave it
:58:54. > :58:59.there. That is it for now. We'll to see you soon. Bye-bye. -- we hope to