:00:36. > :00:37.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:38. > :00:40.Junior doctors in England have begun their first all-out strike
:00:41. > :00:47.As doctors take to the picket lines, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says
:00:48. > :00:51.he's not itching for a fight but won't be backing down.
:00:52. > :00:55.We'll talk to former Health Secretary Ken Clarke.
:00:56. > :00:58.Voters in Scotland head to the polls in just over a week's time -
:00:59. > :01:01.we'll have the latest from the campaign trail and ask
:01:02. > :01:06.if the SNP have delivered on their promises.
:01:07. > :01:09.Jeremy Corbyn's support for the EU is backed by the vast
:01:10. > :01:12.majority of his MPs - but one backbencher claims it
:01:13. > :01:19.could cost the Labour Party swathes of votes.
:01:20. > :01:22.And Big Ben is to fall silent while the famous clock
:01:23. > :01:24.tower is repaired - the experts say it's suffering
:01:25. > :01:28.from everything from subsidence to asbestos to rats.
:01:29. > :01:38.Historian Dan Cruickshank will be here to tell us more.
:01:39. > :01:42.Regular viewers will know that in recent months we've been joined
:01:43. > :01:45.by the leaders of Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives
:01:46. > :01:51.Well today, last and by no means least, we're joined by a former
:01:52. > :01:55.Scottish National Party leader - and now MP - Alex Salmond.
:01:56. > :02:04.First today, jurors deciding what caused the deaths of 96
:02:05. > :02:06.Liverpool fans in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster have
:02:07. > :02:11.delivered their conclusions after an inquest lasting two years.
:02:12. > :02:13.A crush in an overcrowded standing-only section
:02:14. > :02:16.at Hillsborough Stadium in Sheffield at an FA Cup semifinal
:02:17. > :02:19.match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest
:02:20. > :02:34.Families celebrated after the inquest. It was the longest case
:02:35. > :02:37.heard by a jury in British legal history.
:02:38. > :02:39.It concluded that the Liverpool supporters were unlawfully killed.
:02:40. > :02:41.The jurors also found that police error caused or contributed
:02:42. > :02:44.to a dangerous situation at the match, while the behaviour
:02:45. > :02:46.of fans did not contribute to the dangerous situation
:02:47. > :02:59.We are looking at these pictures, the emotional scenes, as you would
:03:00. > :03:05.expect, from the families. They have waited a long time for this day.
:03:06. > :03:09.What are your thoughts? It is an extraordinarily emotional day. Just
:03:10. > :03:14.imagine, these people have been campaigning for 27 years to get the
:03:15. > :03:17.justice, the declaration that has been made today that their relatives
:03:18. > :03:21.and loved ones were not responsible for their own deaths. What has made
:03:22. > :03:25.that whole process quite disgraceful has been the systematic cover-up
:03:26. > :03:30.that took place to try to disguise what really happened, the tendency
:03:31. > :03:39.to lump the blame on the fans. Now, in that sense, those women and men
:03:40. > :03:43.who have been studying this for two or three years have indicated the
:03:44. > :03:46.campaign. That would mean a lot to the families over such a long
:03:47. > :03:51.period, where there were indications that the fans might have contributed
:03:52. > :03:56.in some way to the disaster. And also that jury has said that there
:03:57. > :04:00.were various groups of people, bodies, that were responsible in
:04:01. > :04:09.some way or may have contributed to that disaster. Will that be enough?
:04:10. > :04:14.As I understand, English procedure, the verdict of unlawful death puts a
:04:15. > :04:18.presumption on the Crown Prosecution Service to bring forward criminal
:04:19. > :04:23.proceedings. It would be unlikely on that basis for this to be the end of
:04:24. > :04:30.the process. However, I think it must mark a period, I would imagine
:04:31. > :04:34.that these relatives are driving -- they're driving wish over this last
:04:35. > :04:38.quarter of a century has been to clear the names and reputations of
:04:39. > :04:44.loved ones who died. In that sense, this is a position of closure, but I
:04:45. > :04:48.suspect that, given the vigour of the verdict, and we must accept it,
:04:49. > :04:54.people had studied this for two years, they have gone into this in
:04:55. > :04:58.very, very close detail, given the vigour of the verdict... I had to
:04:59. > :05:03.say, I am really interested in an emphasis shifting to the cover-up.
:05:04. > :05:05.We know that hundreds of police statements were falsified, we know
:05:06. > :05:09.there are implications that this went right to the top of the
:05:10. > :05:18.political process, there must now be a focal point on how that happened.
:05:19. > :05:21.I cannot read the minds of the jury, that is inspect people studying bat
:05:22. > :05:24.and knowing the extent of the misinformation that came out is one
:05:25. > :05:28.of the reasons for the vigour of the verdict delivered. The Independent
:05:29. > :05:32.Police Complaints Commission will investigate the claims that you have
:05:33. > :05:35.spoken about, certainly, they cover-up, and there will be
:05:36. > :05:39.political statements over the coming days?
:05:40. > :05:42.Now, the first all-out doctors' strike in the history of the NHS
:05:43. > :05:46.At 8am this morning thousands of junior doctors walked out of both
:05:47. > :05:48.routine and emergency care in protest at the imposition
:05:49. > :05:52.It's the first time services including A, maternity
:05:53. > :05:54.and intensive care have been hit by the dispute,
:05:55. > :05:57.although NHS bosses believe they have plans in place to ensure
:05:58. > :06:03.patients needing emergency care are safe.
:06:04. > :06:05.Nearly 13,000 routine operations and more than 100,000 appointments
:06:06. > :06:12.have been postponed to free up other staff.
:06:13. > :06:15.The stoppage ends at five o'clock this afternoon,
:06:16. > :06:18.with further all-out strike action due tomorrow.
:06:19. > :06:21.Well, to find out what's happening on one of the picket lines we can go
:06:22. > :06:23.now to our correspondent Smitha Mundasad outside
:06:24. > :06:37.We can see junior doctors and their supporters behind you, what has it
:06:38. > :06:43.been like this morning? I was on this exact spot of three weeks ago,
:06:44. > :06:48.and there are a lot more supporters today, a lot more junior doctors, it
:06:49. > :06:50.is a lot more noisy. As you can hear, lots of cars beeping their
:06:51. > :06:55.horns. The message from the junior doc as is the same, they do not
:06:56. > :06:58.think this contract is fair, they have told me that they have walked
:06:59. > :07:03.out in clear conscience because they know what they are doing, they say,
:07:04. > :07:07.at least, is for the better good at the NHS, and there are senior staff
:07:08. > :07:11.could bring their jobs today. Inside the hospital, the chief executive
:07:12. > :07:15.told me that the accident and emergency is less busy than usual,
:07:16. > :07:19.even though there are lots of senior staff who have been trained up to do
:07:20. > :07:24.some of the junior jobs that they may have forgotten how to do. But he
:07:25. > :07:28.also told me that he thinks that, perhaps, opinions are changing and
:07:29. > :07:33.the mood is changing. 122 junior doctors could have gone on strike,
:07:34. > :07:37.23 cross the picket line and went to work. That is a much higher
:07:38. > :07:41.proportion than the previous strikes. He wonders whether perhaps
:07:42. > :07:45.some junior doctors feel that this is a step too far.
:07:46. > :07:49.Another thing he told me is that he wonders about the consultant
:07:50. > :07:53.support. It has been very good so far, they have been willing to do
:07:54. > :07:57.all the jobs that juniors have not done today, but he will how long the
:07:58. > :08:02.goodwill will last. And ultimately, he says, the fact that juniors are
:08:03. > :08:13.routed to date, they have walked out of emergency care, out of the most
:08:14. > :08:15.pressurised areas of the hospital, like intensive care, maternity care
:08:16. > :08:18.and crash teams, suggests that most sites have not done quite enough to
:08:19. > :08:21.stop this dispute. He is urging them to go back around the table, because
:08:22. > :08:25.patients are coming to him saying, I took the day off work to get my
:08:26. > :08:29.planned operation that has now been postponed. Saying all this, he says
:08:30. > :08:34.that at his hospital things are going as planned, very few
:08:35. > :08:37.operations, around 40, have been postponed. Actor you in the studio.
:08:38. > :08:39.Thank you, Smitha. Well, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt
:08:40. > :08:41.is showing no signs of backing down in the dispute with junior doctors
:08:42. > :08:44.in England - here he is No union, however powerful,
:08:45. > :08:48.however good they are at eliciting public sympathy, has the right
:08:49. > :08:50.to stop an elected government implementing the promises
:08:51. > :08:55.that we made in our manifesto. And we know, and the public know,
:08:56. > :08:58.that you can't choose which day of the week you get ill,
:08:59. > :09:01.and that is why it's incredibly important that we do
:09:02. > :09:04.have a seven-day NHS, that we have even, high-quality
:09:05. > :09:09.care across all days. That is what we want to do,
:09:10. > :09:12.and frankly I think it's what most doctors want to do as well,
:09:13. > :09:15.which is why the right thing for the BMA leadership
:09:16. > :09:17.would be to sit down, to negotiate, talk sensibly,
:09:18. > :09:19.and not to have these wholly unprecedented
:09:20. > :09:29.and unnecessary strikes. And for more information
:09:30. > :09:33.and analysis of the issues in this dispute, go to the BBC News
:09:34. > :09:35.website at We did ask to speak to someone
:09:36. > :09:40.from the Department of Health However, fear not -
:09:41. > :09:44.because we're joined by the next best thing,
:09:45. > :09:57.former Health Secretary Ken Clarke. Wellcome to the programme. Fear and
:09:58. > :10:02.trembling in the heart of the viewers! I am sure. Last night, one
:10:03. > :10:06.Government sores compared this to the miners' strike, saying it is a
:10:07. > :10:10.political strike, like the miners' strike, it has to be defeated. Does
:10:11. > :10:17.that help a situation like this? The God I don't know who said that. I
:10:18. > :10:19.don't see it in that way. It is a disaster and a tragedy that the
:10:20. > :10:25.health service is being faced by this. I don't understand why however
:10:26. > :10:30.many junior doctors taking part are taking part, they are all nice,
:10:31. > :10:35.intelligent young people... They can't all have been misled by the
:10:36. > :10:39.BMA. The only thing on the table is a pay claim. The BMA has never
:10:40. > :10:44.actually had a strike like this ever. Every previous Health
:10:45. > :10:48.Secretary has had battles with them. I had great battles, they did not
:10:49. > :10:53.threaten me with a strike. They are striking over a pay claim which they
:10:54. > :10:57.want waited to make it more expensive at the weekends, so most
:10:58. > :11:02.NHS trusts will not be able to afford to go toward seven-day
:11:03. > :11:07.working. How do you withdraw urgent care in support of that? All those
:11:08. > :11:11.other stuff about supporting the NHS and so one, you can talk about that
:11:12. > :11:15.with them, but it is nothing to do with this strike. We will talk about
:11:16. > :11:19.that in a moment, but we're in a position, as you say, it is
:11:20. > :11:22.historical to have junior doctors on strike, it never happens in your
:11:23. > :11:29.time, and certainly not an all-out strike. Is that the fault of the
:11:30. > :11:33.Government? Doctors would not have withdrawn, only a handful would have
:11:34. > :11:39.contemplated withdrawing urgent treatment in my day. They held names
:11:40. > :11:46.that Nye Bevan, they held names at me, they said I would not take
:11:47. > :11:49.medical advice, they never threatened ordinary strike action.
:11:50. > :11:54.It has been escalated by the sort of language that the Government has
:11:55. > :11:59.used. It is a source, we cannot say who it is, accusing the BMA and
:12:00. > :12:04.junior doctors of blackmailing the Government and trying to bring it
:12:05. > :12:08.down will only fuel the anger. It is a language that I don't think Jeremy
:12:09. > :12:18.Hunt users, he never has, and I don't use it. What we cannot do is
:12:19. > :12:24.put money into paying a pay claim back into militant action when the
:12:25. > :12:29.patient services need money and the service needs to be developed to go
:12:30. > :12:34.to a seven day basis. This strike is about more money and many paid in a
:12:35. > :12:39.way that means not many of them will have to work at weekends. You
:12:40. > :12:42.clearly disagree, but there is a strong argument saying that the
:12:43. > :12:46.junior doctors have moved the central argument of this dispute
:12:47. > :12:49.from their perspective. They said it was about compensating pay on a
:12:50. > :12:53.Saturday if they were going to move to a seven-day week, now it seems to
:12:54. > :13:01.be a much broader issue but, in their mind, saving the NHS. The
:13:02. > :13:08.Government cannot back down about? Kennel Club, a hugely controversial
:13:09. > :13:13.Health Secretary, never had a strike, but Jeremy Hunt said this is
:13:14. > :13:17.about who governs. That macro Kenneth Clarke, a hugely
:13:18. > :13:21.controversial Health Secretary. This is about whether a Health Secretary
:13:22. > :13:26.can achieve consensus with health service staff. In Scotland we are
:13:27. > :13:30.moving to a seven-day health service by consensus, without tearing up the
:13:31. > :13:34.junior doctors' contract is. If it is possible for the Scottish Health
:13:35. > :13:39.Secretary to do but, why is it not possible for Jeremy Hunt to do it
:13:40. > :13:43.without talking like it is a huge constitutional crisis. The only
:13:44. > :13:48.crisis is in his department and his management bid. Isn't that the key,
:13:49. > :13:53.it is the imposition element that has forced these doctors onto the
:13:54. > :13:57.street? In Scotland they have more money, they pay everyone more for
:13:58. > :14:02.weekend working, the service delivered to patients is not as good
:14:03. > :14:08.as in England. That is not true. They and the Welsh have resisted
:14:09. > :14:15.reform over the years. Here, they have been negotiating for three
:14:16. > :14:18.years. It is a filibuster. They have no intention of settling. They made
:14:19. > :14:24.it quite clear, they are now at the last point. Unless we can to workers
:14:25. > :14:30.made so expensive that the demands upon junior doctors to do it will be
:14:31. > :14:36.fewer and further between -- unless weekend work is made so expensive.
:14:37. > :14:41.The service needs a seven-day work, it needs money spent on services.
:14:42. > :14:47.But it is trying to get people on site, trying to get consensus. Did
:14:48. > :14:50.you think using the language of imposition, we will force this
:14:51. > :14:58.contract on you, before there was willingness to negotiate, was wise?
:14:59. > :15:03.Going back to the 1980s, I have had disputes with practically every
:15:04. > :15:08.union known to man... Is that a badge of honour for you? The
:15:09. > :15:14.politics of the 70s and 80s was about industrial relations. The
:15:15. > :15:19.reality... I never had a situation like this. That is exactly the
:15:20. > :15:22.point. If you had been Health Secretary you would have had the
:15:23. > :15:30.sense to see the cross-party of their earlier this week as a
:15:31. > :15:34.potential way to have a pilot study. You out of date about the Scottish
:15:35. > :15:38.health service in every respect. Let's take the four a la target in
:15:39. > :15:42.accident and emergency, the Scottish health service performs better than
:15:43. > :15:47.England. You missed your own targets. Because they are more
:15:48. > :15:50.exacting. On the former -- on the four our target, the Scottish health
:15:51. > :15:55.service is performing substantially better than the English, which is
:15:56. > :15:59.one of the key aspects at the heart of it. Perhaps this is because the
:16:00. > :16:03.junior doctors and other stuff are more motivated in Scotland because
:16:04. > :16:06.they do not have a Government trying to claim the arrow gauged in a
:16:07. > :16:11.campaign to bring down the Government.
:16:12. > :16:17.Is it appropriate that the Scottish Government has been trying to
:16:18. > :16:23.recruit English doctors to work during the disagreement? I'm just
:16:24. > :16:26.off the picket line at Saint Thomas Hospital, and there were a number of
:16:27. > :16:31.junior doctors on that picket line talking about, well, if this Health
:16:32. > :16:33.Secretary does not see sense, get around the table and come to an
:16:34. > :16:41.agreement, they will be looking to go to Scotland or Australia or
:16:42. > :16:45.elsewhere. That should be an example to the people of England, who are
:16:46. > :16:49.firmly behind the junior doctors at the present moment, that you can do
:16:50. > :16:53.things in a better, more consensual way, and if we can do it in
:16:54. > :16:57.Scotland, they can do it in England as well. It is entirely reasonable,
:16:58. > :17:02.if junior doctors are being treated in that way by Jeremy Hunt, that
:17:03. > :17:05.they will look elsewhere. Or they are just resisting the reform that
:17:06. > :17:09.Ken Clarke is talking about. Is there a feeling in government, I
:17:10. > :17:13.know you are not in the government, but fingers being crossed that
:17:14. > :17:16.public opinion will turn against the doctors? It is still in favour in
:17:17. > :17:21.terms of the majority of people polled, but fewer than before the
:17:22. > :17:25.all-out strike. Is that what you are banking on? I think it will happen,
:17:26. > :17:29.and the majority of junior doctors will not take part in the strike,
:17:30. > :17:34.not withdraw urgent and emergency care. I do not think that is
:17:35. > :17:40.necessarily a helpful development, because Jeremy and the Government
:17:41. > :17:47.are trying to take the militancy and bitterness out of this. Come on,
:17:48. > :17:50.Ken! By making clear there are concessions, by making clear that
:17:51. > :17:54.they will attack the wider things that are being talked about on the
:17:55. > :17:58.picket lines, their working conditions, reducing hours, no-one
:17:59. > :18:04.is getting a pay reduction, 75% getting a pay rise. But one is faced
:18:05. > :18:08.with this rather baffling believe that they are saving the NHS.
:18:09. > :18:12.Because both sides have hardened their lines, and everybody seems to
:18:13. > :18:20.be entrenched. The junior doctors and the public will be low weight if
:18:21. > :18:23.they make it so hard. I am putting the question, it would be difficult
:18:24. > :18:28.to prove this, if somebody loses their life today, that it was down
:18:29. > :18:33.to the strike, but public opinion could well slide away from junior
:18:34. > :18:36.doctors. I and I come in today from the BBC health correspondent, who
:18:37. > :18:40.must know something about it, there is an argument that things will be
:18:41. > :18:48.safer because the emergency situation is being covered by more
:18:49. > :18:51.senior doctors. As of today, a majority of junior doctors are on
:18:52. > :18:55.strike and a majority of the public in England are supporting their
:18:56. > :18:59.case. I will tell you why it is, because the public know the first
:19:00. > :19:03.all-out strike in history, the first strike for 30 years in the National
:19:04. > :19:06.Health Service, there must be some really important reason that has
:19:07. > :19:11.driven these people, who have committed their lives to the welfare
:19:12. > :19:19.of others, to engage in this sort of activity, as opposed to a fly by
:19:20. > :19:22.night Health Secretary who was causing chaos. He says he is going
:19:23. > :19:27.to stay. He says it is his last big job in government, let's hope so!
:19:28. > :19:31.They are taking a firm stand on something that is pricking
:19:32. > :19:36.consciences on the picket line, but where does it end? If there was the
:19:37. > :19:40.idea of an in Devon and strike, and it has been touted, surely the
:19:41. > :19:45.Government could not survive that? -- indefinite. The idea that
:19:46. > :19:50.militancy keeps rising, talking about a permanent withdrawal, it is
:19:51. > :19:53.not clear that it would be a permanent withdrawal, continuous
:19:54. > :19:58.withdrawal of emergency and urgent care. The idea that this will not
:19:59. > :20:02.damage patients, patients will not mind having operations cancelled,
:20:03. > :20:07.those members of the public who say they support the junior doctors, as
:20:08. > :20:10.in most strikes, and in the days we used to have strikes all the time,
:20:11. > :20:15.they just want the Government and the health service to run normally.
:20:16. > :20:20.Why can't the Government sort it out? The idea that you give away to
:20:21. > :20:28.strike with a pay claim, then half the other staff. -- staff will
:20:29. > :20:32.threaten militant action for the same generous terms that the junior
:20:33. > :20:35.doctors are trying to demand. You cannot wait until the public finally
:20:36. > :20:41.realised that this money is being, you know, taken away from patient
:20:42. > :20:45.services to buy off militant industrial action. They are nice
:20:46. > :20:50.people, junior doctors, they should be prepared to sit down and talk
:20:51. > :20:54.about what they actually think is better for the National Health
:20:55. > :20:58.Service and patients. Meanwhile, the strike is going head and will resume
:20:59. > :20:59.tomorrow. Thank you very much, Ken Clarke.
:21:00. > :21:03.And it's all about the SNP's latest election billboard.
:21:04. > :21:06."Don't just hope for a better Scotland, vote for one."
:21:07. > :21:09.But several people have pointed out that the slogan is almost identical
:21:10. > :21:12.to the one used by another famous political figure.
:21:13. > :21:14.Was it Donald Trump, George Galloway,
:21:15. > :21:18.Margaret Thatcher or Lyndon B Johnson?
:21:19. > :21:24.Alex Salmond will give us the correct answer.
:21:25. > :21:27.Now, in recent weeks in Scotland, we've seen one party leader
:21:28. > :21:28.riding a buffalo, another on a children's slide,
:21:29. > :21:34.It can only mean one thing - yes, the elections
:21:35. > :21:37.to the Scottish Parliament are just around the corner,
:21:38. > :21:40.and our Adam's been on the campaign trail to find out more.
:21:41. > :21:45.The Scottish Parliament now has powers to vary the rate
:21:46. > :21:48.and threshold for income tax, and so tax has become a massive
:21:49. > :21:51.issue in the election campaign being fought
:21:52. > :21:58.The SNP is running a presidential-style campaign
:21:59. > :22:07.I've just been handed a Nicola Sturgeon stress ball.
:22:08. > :22:10.It doesn't look much like her, though, does it?
:22:11. > :22:16.She's stressing that she won't pass on the tax cut for people
:22:17. > :22:19.on the 40p rate that George Osborne is doing down south.
:22:20. > :22:21.I'm going to get my photo with you, though.
:22:22. > :22:29.How come in the general election you said you wanted a 50p rate
:22:30. > :22:32.of tax, but you're not going to introduce one now,
:22:33. > :22:38.and I argued that across the UK in the general election.
:22:39. > :22:41.We don't have powers in Scotland over tax avoidance on income tax,
:22:42. > :22:44.so if we introduce it just in Scotland, there is a danger
:22:45. > :22:47.that we end up losing money from it, because people will perhaps
:22:48. > :22:49.take their income out of Scotland or transfer it into,
:22:50. > :22:54.Labour's Kezia Dugdale has shaken things up with a radical range
:22:55. > :22:58.of tax pledges designed to outflank the SNP from the left.
:22:59. > :23:02.Firstly, we will reintroduce our top rate of tax, a 50p rate,
:23:03. > :23:05.which will ask those people who earn over ?150,000 a year
:23:06. > :23:10.But that alone is not enough to stop the cuts.
:23:11. > :23:13.So that's why we're advocating using the basic rate of income tax,
:23:14. > :23:20.putting that up by 1p, 1p higher than George Osborne and the Tories.
:23:21. > :23:22.And when he's not manhandling people's pets,
:23:23. > :23:25.the Lib Dems' Scottish leader is eyeing a tax rise, too.
:23:26. > :23:27.What you get with the Liberal Democrats is a big investment
:23:28. > :23:30.in education, with a penny on income tax.
:23:31. > :23:32.But what is terribly disappointing in this campaign
:23:33. > :23:35.is the timidity and caution of the SNP.
:23:36. > :23:39.They've been banging on about more powers for decades,
:23:40. > :23:41.and what do they do when they get those more powers?
:23:42. > :23:48.To make things a little bit more confusing,
:23:49. > :23:51.the Scottish Greens are suggesting a new 60p rate,
:23:52. > :23:55.and they want to split the basic rate in two.
:23:56. > :23:58.It's not enough just to say the basic rate
:23:59. > :24:02.would go up or down a bit - we want to break it into two,
:24:03. > :24:06.an upper and a lower band, so that people on a below full-time
:24:07. > :24:08.average annual salary save money from their tax bill,
:24:09. > :24:12.and those who can afford to pay more do so.
:24:13. > :24:14.Keeping it simple, that lover of comedy photo ops -
:24:15. > :24:16.the Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson,
:24:17. > :24:19.who wants taxes to stay the same across the UK.
:24:20. > :24:21.Except her opposite number in Cardiff
:24:22. > :24:28.The Welsh Conservatives can take their own decisions
:24:29. > :24:31.about what they do, in the same way that we do here.
:24:32. > :24:33.We would love to, over the medium-term -
:24:34. > :24:36.and I have made that plain - aspire to a tax cut for Scots
:24:37. > :24:39.But what we're seeing at this election is that has
:24:40. > :24:42.to be earned, those sorts of tax cuts have to be earned.
:24:43. > :24:44.We saw just yesterday from the labour market statistics
:24:45. > :24:47.that we have higher unemployment in Scotland, you've got lower growth
:24:48. > :24:50.in Scotland, we need to be able to grow our economy,
:24:51. > :24:53.the amount of money that's coming into the pot,
:24:54. > :24:55.and then we can look at tax cuts for people.
:24:56. > :24:57.They know all about comparing Scotland and England
:24:58. > :25:00.at this shopping centre, because it's right on the border.
:25:01. > :25:05.We're British, I know we're Scottish,
:25:06. > :25:08.that we should pay British taxes, there shouldn't be a difference.
:25:09. > :25:10.Because people will go from Scotland down to England,
:25:11. > :25:14.I'm thinking of moving back to England if it happens.
:25:15. > :25:15.Are you? Yeah.
:25:16. > :25:19.I don't know, it's just like we're paying more tax
:25:20. > :25:24.I don't mind the taxes being higher, the 1p or whatever it is,
:25:25. > :25:27.because we need it for the schools. We need to invest in the NHS.
:25:28. > :25:30.If you put the rates up, or taxes up, if the money
:25:31. > :25:34.is going to good places like NHS, schools etc, I don't mind,
:25:35. > :25:36.because they're desperately needing it, you know?
:25:37. > :25:39.You're happy to pay more? I would.
:25:40. > :25:43.where income tax could end up being really quite different.
:25:44. > :25:49.Unless the SNP win, and then it'll only be a little bit different.
:25:50. > :25:52.That was Adam, and we're joined now from Glasgow
:25:53. > :25:54.by the BBC's Scotland editor, Sarah Smith.
:25:55. > :26:09.Sarah Beck, income tax, is that the central battle ground? It certainly
:26:10. > :26:12.is, because it is the first time the Scottish Parliament will have the
:26:13. > :26:15.ability to vary interest rates and can make them different from the
:26:16. > :26:18.rest of the United Kingdom, and there is a clear difference between
:26:19. > :26:23.the political parties, as you heard, about the policies of what they
:26:24. > :26:25.would do with income tax. The one thing that seems certain is that
:26:26. > :26:31.there will be different rates being paid by people here than in the rest
:26:32. > :26:35.of Britain. What about the battle for second place, if you like, if we
:26:36. > :26:39.look at Labour and the Conservatives? How is it playing
:26:40. > :26:43.out? Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, takes an
:26:44. > :26:47.interesting line. She says vote for her for a stronger opposition, she
:26:48. > :26:50.is not claiming she will be the First Minister, she wants to come
:26:51. > :26:54.second and will be a stronger opposition if she is the Leader of
:26:55. > :26:59.the Opposition to the SNP. She is taking it for granted that the SNP
:27:00. > :27:03.will win. We would never do that, because although the polls can get
:27:04. > :27:07.the margin of error on, the SNP are 30 points shared in the election. It
:27:08. > :27:11.seems likely they might form the next government, which is a problem
:27:12. > :27:15.for Kezia Dugdale of Scottish Labour. She has to say she is
:27:16. > :27:19.fighting to become First Minister, that there will be a Labour
:27:20. > :27:23.government, but it does not seem entirely credible. Ruth Davidson may
:27:24. > :27:26.be onto something, saying vote for a strong opposition, rather than
:27:27. > :27:32.saying you can and sit Nicola Sturgeon. There must be some cracks
:27:33. > :27:37.in the SNP campaign. They are being put aside for being too timid on a
:27:38. > :27:40.income tax policy. They have fought for decades for more powers in the
:27:41. > :27:44.Scottish Parliament, and now they have the power to vary income tax
:27:45. > :27:50.is, they are just talking about not passing on a tax cut for higher
:27:51. > :27:54.earners. Labour are saying they would put 1p on basic rate, they say
:27:55. > :28:01.they want to grasp the new powers of the Scottish Parliament and put them
:28:02. > :28:05.into effect. Well done, Sarah Smith, for withstanding the wind! You're
:28:06. > :28:11.being too timid, Alex Salmond, you have never used the powers you have
:28:12. > :28:15.a nine years, why not? Well, it was progressive, because we did not have
:28:16. > :28:22.the power to vary the income tax of the better off without changing the
:28:23. > :28:26.income tax of the lower paid. The SNP divided the House of Commons
:28:27. > :28:30.over the tax cut for the better off, one half of why Ian Duncan is it
:28:31. > :28:34.resigned. The Labour Party abstained on that boat on the 22nd of March,
:28:35. > :28:37.and it is quite right and very exciting that Nicola Sturgeon will
:28:38. > :28:42.now have the power not to pass on that tax cut to the better off so
:28:43. > :28:45.was that money can be invested in public services. It would be
:28:46. > :28:48.ludicrous to take the position that we are going to tax the lowest paid
:28:49. > :28:53.in the country with an extra penny on the income tax, that is not an
:28:54. > :28:58.alternative to austerity - that is austerity. Let's just go through
:28:59. > :29:02.some of the key policy areas, the SNP launched their manifesto in
:29:03. > :29:05.Edinburgh last week with Nicola Sturgeon, calling at her job
:29:06. > :29:07.application for the post of First Minister.
:29:08. > :29:10.But the SNP have been in power in Holyrood for nine years now.
:29:11. > :29:12.So what is their record in government?
:29:13. > :29:14.On education, the SNP have protected free university tuition
:29:15. > :29:17.But critics point to cuts to further-education colleges
:29:18. > :29:22.as evidence that their record on education isn't all rosy.
:29:23. > :29:25.On healthcare, the SNP have scrapped prescription charges and protected
:29:26. > :29:32.free personal care for those aged 65 and over who need it.
:29:33. > :29:34.But they have regularly failed to meet
:29:35. > :29:36.their own A target on waiting times.
:29:37. > :29:39.The SNP government have frozen council tax rates
:29:40. > :29:45.But they originally planned to replace this with local income tax -
:29:46. > :29:54.those hardest hit by unfair Tory welfare cuts.
:29:55. > :29:57.But the Scottish Labour Party and Scottish Lib Dems say
:29:58. > :29:58.they could give public services a boost
:29:59. > :30:15.Writer, well, let's get back to that issue. Why don't you do what people,
:30:16. > :30:23.even in that film, were demanding, which is to raise income tax. You
:30:24. > :30:26.said we have protected free education, we introduced free
:30:27. > :30:30.education in Scotland. We scrapped the backend Jewish and fees. I was
:30:31. > :30:41.First Minister at the time, I remember. -- we scrapped the
:30:42. > :30:46.backends tuition fees. But these are not the target set by the Scottish
:30:47. > :30:52.Government. The original target was 95%, as we were improving things we
:30:53. > :30:57.set the target of 98%, so the only reason we have not met the target is
:30:58. > :31:02.we increased it. It was too ambitious and you have not held to
:31:03. > :31:05.it. We have increased performance by 8%. The reason the Scottish
:31:06. > :31:09.Government is popular, and that Nicola Sturgeon is outstandingly
:31:10. > :31:14.popular, is that people know about. Just say we have not met its target
:31:15. > :31:19.is to ignore the fact that A times are eight cent better than when we
:31:20. > :31:25.came to target. If you state a target, that is what we will judge
:31:26. > :31:31.you against. Bad is perhaps the BBC judgment, I am more interested in
:31:32. > :31:35.the judgment of the Scottish people. The SNP has a positive approval
:31:36. > :31:41.rating. Which other government do you know of, nine years into office?
:31:42. > :31:45.About it is not factually wrong, I accept that you have improved the
:31:46. > :31:49.target, but you improved it, you missed it, we have judged you on
:31:50. > :31:56.that. I will come to education. The
:31:57. > :32:02.statement about free education was slightly misleading, by normal BBC
:32:03. > :32:05.standards. Which we uphold to the highest level! Except during the
:32:06. > :32:14.referendum. You could not resist it. In terms of
:32:15. > :32:16.tuition fees, has the focus on not charging for tuition fees damaged
:32:17. > :32:23.other areas of education in Scotland? Lots of the statistics
:32:24. > :32:27.show that people from poorest backgrounds have suffered because of
:32:28. > :32:31.closure of further education colleges, reduction in teaching
:32:32. > :32:36.grants. I will say why this is wrong. The focus is on the number of
:32:37. > :32:41.places, but the way you measure students in colleges in Scotland is
:32:42. > :32:47.not by places, it is by full-time equivalent teaching, like-for-like.
:32:48. > :32:52.If you were to change four two our courses are weak into one full-time
:32:53. > :32:57.course, that is not four courses going into one course, it is more
:32:58. > :33:01.teaching. The SNP has upheld the full-time equivalent teaching time.
:33:02. > :33:06.Let's look at the numbers of students. You are looking at the
:33:07. > :33:13.number of students, we are looking at courses, this is a different
:33:14. > :33:16.thing. These figures are from the Educational Institute Of Scotland,,
:33:17. > :33:20.since you came to power in 2007 and wanted to increase the number of
:33:21. > :33:38.students, the number of students in Scottish colleges has fallen by 152
:33:39. > :33:41.-- 150 2000. -- 150 2000. 92% of schoolchildren in Scotland go onto
:33:42. > :33:45.higher educational work. We have a higher level of achieving that than
:33:46. > :33:50.the rest of the UK. And a larger number of students in higher
:33:51. > :33:54.education. And the high ever number of students in certified and degree
:33:55. > :34:01.level courses. These are the statistics that matter. People in
:34:02. > :34:08.Scotland no... It is not an interpretation. These are respected
:34:09. > :34:12.institute 's judging you. Families in Scotland know the difference it
:34:13. > :34:18.makes to have free education based on ability as opposed to paying
:34:19. > :34:24.?9,000 a year and labelling future generations with this huge burden.
:34:25. > :34:27.Do you accept that further education colleges have suffered? It has
:34:28. > :34:33.benefited certain students, I will put this to you... Effie colleges,
:34:34. > :34:38.we have colleges in Scotland with degree courses, which benefits
:34:39. > :34:41.colleges as well as universities -- FE colleges. They say that the
:34:42. > :34:50.priority of the Scottish Government to prioritise full-time FE causes
:34:51. > :34:54.has had impact on the part-time courses. Children from disadvantaged
:34:55. > :34:59.backgrounds have lost out, the figures are there. I don't accept
:35:00. > :35:03.that, the point of full-time and degree level courses, higher
:35:04. > :35:06.education courses, pursued in colleges as well as universities, it
:35:07. > :35:10.gets people into full-time employment. That is why the record
:35:11. > :35:15.of full-time employment for young people in Scotland is so good in
:35:16. > :35:19.comparison with the rest of the UK. Do you access there are fewer
:35:20. > :35:29.college places than they used to be? -- do you accept? Everybody watching
:35:30. > :35:32.this will understand that two four or five hour courses is entirely
:35:33. > :35:36.different from the degree level course. That is one course, but it
:35:37. > :35:40.might be far more valuable for people to get recognised
:35:41. > :35:46.qualifications to get into work as opposed to having limited two or
:35:47. > :35:49.three hour courses. The Scottish Funding Council says that your
:35:50. > :35:56.record on poorer students at University, despite having free
:35:57. > :36:03.Jewish and the Scottish students, -- despite having free tuition for
:36:04. > :36:08.Scottish students... We are committing to new legislation which
:36:09. > :36:12.is going to make sure that universities respond to the need to
:36:13. > :36:18.have people from deprived backgrounds. Which is something you
:36:19. > :36:21.have not managed to do. The number of students from deprived
:36:22. > :36:26.backgrounds is improving in Scotland, but not at the rate that
:36:27. > :36:30.we would like it to happen. Let's return to taxes. You and many of
:36:31. > :36:34.your colleagues have said you want to protect Scottish public services
:36:35. > :36:38.from Tory cuts at Westminster, why not give public services like
:36:39. > :36:43.schools and hospitals, as the lady said in that film, they need more
:36:44. > :36:47.money, use your tax-raising powers? The proposals put forward will raise
:36:48. > :36:52.an additional 2000 million pounds over the course of the next
:36:53. > :36:56.parliament, which will go into public services. But you do not
:36:57. > :37:00.tackle austerity I taxi the lowest paid in the country, as Labour
:37:01. > :37:04.propose. If you are introducing taxation, you need to make sure it
:37:05. > :37:11.is fire, you do not give tax cuts to the better off. Tax avoidance sounds
:37:12. > :37:15.like an excuse, Alex Hammond. The report suggested that if we did that
:37:16. > :37:19.in Scotland without the powers that Nicola identified and demonstrated,
:37:20. > :37:24.we would end up with less money. Nobody imposes a higher tax to end
:37:25. > :37:28.up with less revenue. You will not do it at the top, you say you do not
:37:29. > :37:33.want to do it at the bottom... We are doing it at the top end by not
:37:34. > :37:37.giving the tax cut that George Osborne introduced in the Budget,
:37:38. > :37:42.which the SNP voted against and the Labour Party sat on my hands. Let's
:37:43. > :37:46.look at other potential areas for raising money to boost public
:37:47. > :37:50.services, which people seem to want. This idea of replacing the council
:37:51. > :37:57.tax with a local income tax, it was in both your 2007 and 2011
:37:58. > :38:02.manifestos, why has it not happened? The 2011 manifesto committed us to a
:38:03. > :38:06.study. You are right about the 2007 manifesto. In 2007 we found we could
:38:07. > :38:11.not get it introduced with the powers that be had. Nicola has
:38:12. > :38:14.followed through on the 2011 manifesto. She has proposed to
:38:15. > :38:18.change the nature of council tax to increase the number of bands, so
:38:19. > :38:30.that higher paid people in better off properties pay more than people
:38:31. > :38:35.across the spectrum. The -- you have frozen the council tax. Every single
:38:36. > :38:40.penny of that, perhaps to an over degree, has been dampened sated by
:38:41. > :38:47.central government. Local authorities in Scotland, who are
:38:48. > :38:50.hard-pressed, have done in comparably better than local
:38:51. > :38:54.authorities in England and Wales. They also say they have been starved
:38:55. > :39:00.of cash and have had to struggle. The garden let's accept that it is a
:39:01. > :39:03.tight spending regime imposed by Tory and coalition governments, and
:39:04. > :39:08.Labour before them, but local authorities in Scotland have been
:39:09. > :39:12.much better funded than their counterparts in England and Wales.
:39:13. > :39:16.You said that the referendum was a once in a generation boat, will you
:39:17. > :39:20.rule out another referendum in the next five years? It is not up to me,
:39:21. > :39:25.it isn't too Nicola and the Scottish people. Nicola has identified that
:39:26. > :39:29.if we were dragged out of the EU against the will of the Scottish
:39:30. > :39:35.people, that would be a change in the tube and circumstances
:39:36. > :39:42.justifying another pole. -- a change in circumstances justifying another
:39:43. > :39:46.poll. Our position in Europe is being jeopardised by London
:39:47. > :39:51.decisions. In the general election last year, Nicola said explicitly,
:39:52. > :39:56.again on the BBC, and the people of Scotland, hearing that commitment,
:39:57. > :40:02.returned 56 out of 59 Scottish constituencies as SNP members. What
:40:03. > :40:03.happened to the other three? More on that when we get there!
:40:04. > :40:06.Now, as we've been discussing, next week on the 5th of May,
:40:07. > :40:09.voters will be going to the polls all over the UK, including at 125
:40:10. > :40:12.Councils and councillors can come in all shapes and sizes,
:40:13. > :40:16.and today we're going to have a look at some of the most remarkable.
:40:17. > :40:18.West Somerset has the smallest local council by population,
:40:19. > :40:27.Birmingham has the largest council population,
:40:28. > :40:31.Of the 10,399 candidates standing for election, 66%,
:40:32. > :40:42.The average age of a councillor is over 60 years old,
:40:43. > :40:47.The youngest councillor in England is Liberal Democrat Isabelle Murray,
:40:48. > :40:49.who was just 18 years old when elected to Seaford Town
:40:50. > :40:57.So that was the youngest, but let's now speak
:40:58. > :41:01.He is, we believe, the longest-serving borough
:41:02. > :41:05.He's called Godfrey Olson, he's standing down
:41:06. > :41:08.after 61 years of service on Eastleigh Borough Council,
:41:09. > :41:17.and he joins us now from our Southampton studio.
:41:18. > :41:25.Welcome to the programme. As we said, godly Olsen, you have sat on
:41:26. > :41:30.Eastleigh Borough Council since 1955. How much has local and changed
:41:31. > :41:34.since you were elected? Dramatically. When I first joined
:41:35. > :41:37.Eastleigh Borough Council it was a relatively small area just
:41:38. > :41:46.comprising of three towns, chance that, Eastleigh and Bishopstown in
:41:47. > :41:51.the 1974 reorganisation it expanded to more than double its size and now
:41:52. > :41:57.has a population of over 100,000. You are not standing for real action
:41:58. > :42:03.next week, why are you stepping down now? I decided that I had as to the
:42:04. > :42:07.electorate of the war but I represent -- I had asked the
:42:08. > :42:10.electorate of the water that I represented throughout that time
:42:11. > :42:15.enough to support me, now it was time for me to take a rest and give
:42:16. > :42:18.Cindy at the opportunity. You have clearly enjoyed it, otherwise you
:42:19. > :42:23.would not have done it for all this time. You have been a councillor,
:42:24. > :42:28.mayor three times, you also worked as an estate agent. How did you
:42:29. > :42:33.manage it all? With difficulty. I have always lived by a council
:42:34. > :42:39.diary. It was imported to me to always be at the council meetings,
:42:40. > :42:44.and I managed to fulfil that, fortunately, and I enjoyed
:42:45. > :42:50.representing the people that had the confidence to elect me. You were
:42:51. > :42:54.awarded an OBE in 1990 for your work within the community. What did you
:42:55. > :42:59.think has been your greatest achievement, all the thing you
:43:00. > :43:06.remember most? A number of things, but I suppose when taking my mayoral
:43:07. > :43:13.years, my second mayoral year, I decided I would try to raise money
:43:14. > :43:21.to help people with special needs. The next year was the Queen's Silver
:43:22. > :43:25.Jubilee. So we decided to set up a committee to raise money to build an
:43:26. > :43:32.activity centre for people with special needs. We managed to succeed
:43:33. > :43:39.and have it open, Princess Margaret came to open it just before the end
:43:40. > :43:45.of the Queen's Silver Jubilee year. That still exists and caters for
:43:46. > :43:49.many hundreds of people with special needs who can go and enjoy
:43:50. > :44:00.activities in the open air, sailing or canoeing, using the country park
:44:01. > :44:06.in which the centre is situated. Let me ask Alan Salmond, do you think
:44:07. > :44:13.you could serve the 61 years? -- Alex Hammond? It is 22 years since
:44:14. > :44:20.Godfrey was recognised for his work and he has done another couple of
:44:21. > :44:23.decades since. Whatever medals they have for local councillors, he
:44:24. > :44:28.should get a platinum medal. An amazing record, well done. Enjoy
:44:29. > :44:34.your retirement, you have owned it and deserved it. Did you want to say
:44:35. > :44:38.something, it sounded like he wanted to say something? I was just going
:44:39. > :44:42.to tell you about the restoration of an Eastleigh local building. We will
:44:43. > :44:43.have to say that for another day, but thank you.
:44:44. > :44:46.Now, the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is backing a vote to stay
:44:47. > :44:48.in the EU at the referendum on the 23rd of June.
:44:49. > :44:51.But one of his MPs, the former Welfare Minister Frank Field,
:44:52. > :44:54.has used a speech this morning to accuse him of writing the second
:44:55. > :44:56.longest suicide note in Labour's history.
:44:57. > :44:57.He said traditional Labour voters
:44:58. > :45:04.had suffered most from Britain's EU membership:
:45:05. > :45:12.They have been on the receiving end of the numbers, 5.3 million people,
:45:13. > :45:14.newcomers to this country since Tony Blair and Gordon Brown
:45:15. > :45:19.They are the ones that have actually suffered with pressure on their
:45:20. > :45:21.wages declining, they have been the ones who find the queues
:45:22. > :45:24.for housing have become longer, and they are the ones
:45:25. > :45:27.who feel most acutely that they cannot choose schools
:45:28. > :45:41.And he's with us now to tell us more.
:45:42. > :45:50.Frank Field, since Jake Cole won the leadership, there has been a lot of
:45:51. > :45:53.disunity, or at least reported disunity in the Labour Party, but
:45:54. > :45:58.Europe is an issue where you could say there is unity, really, bar a
:45:59. > :46:05.few MPs. So why are you trying to create this unity when it is a
:46:06. > :46:09.necessary? I think his position is secure, I think this talk from some
:46:10. > :46:13.members of the Parliamentary Labour Party about overthrowing is absurd,
:46:14. > :46:17.and he will remain secure until those who wish to have him replaced
:46:18. > :46:24.find an alternative leader. The reason why I spoke today was that if
:46:25. > :46:29.you look at, leaving out what has happened to our vote in Scotland! In
:46:30. > :46:35.England, since the heyday of Tony Blair, we have lost well over four
:46:36. > :46:41.million votes, well over 3 million people have moved to a distension,
:46:42. > :46:53.and Ukip has had, equally, an increasing vote of 3 million. --
:46:54. > :46:57.moved to add -- abstention. They crossed over because they felt they
:46:58. > :47:02.had a Labour Party that did not represent in public debate their
:47:03. > :47:06.real interests. But the settled view in Labour that Remain is the one to
:47:07. > :47:12.back, and the Conservative Party is a classic example of a party that is
:47:13. > :47:15.split on this key issue, and voters do not like divided parties. So why
:47:16. > :47:24.highlight something that, in Parliamentary terms you do not
:47:25. > :47:27.represent any more? You can have unanimity in the graveyard. It is
:47:28. > :47:31.crucially important, if we are going to be successful in winning power
:47:32. > :47:38.next time, that we do not have another tranche of Labour voters
:47:39. > :47:41.feeling that they are so unrepresented by the Parliamentary
:47:42. > :47:44.leadership that they are voting to leave and voting for Ukip
:47:45. > :47:53.candidates. I want them to go into the polling booth to express that
:47:54. > :47:57.40% of our supporters support leaving, as proud Labour voters, not
:47:58. > :48:04.potential renegade Ukip voters. Why would leaving the EU be good for
:48:05. > :48:07.working people? We would be able to control our borders. I have heard
:48:08. > :48:14.people argue that we already do, David Miliband, but we have no
:48:15. > :48:20.control, since the accession countries joined, we have had 5.3
:48:21. > :48:25.million people coming into this country. That was Labour's fault.
:48:26. > :48:29.And you had me on this programme saying we should not do that,
:48:30. > :48:33.criticising the Labour government for doing so, and it was not then
:48:34. > :48:37.about the Labour Party being united on that issue. What do you say to
:48:38. > :48:43.that, in terms of working people being best represented by parties
:48:44. > :48:48.wanting to leave? Because their fortunes would improve. Well, I
:48:49. > :48:53.don't access that, and I rather like the tone, as it happens, and it is
:48:54. > :48:56.perhaps ridiculous for me to beat defending Jeremy Corbyn and Frank
:48:57. > :49:03.attacking him, but I think the tone that he said in his speech of not
:49:04. > :49:15.being uncritical towards Europe, but a balance there is a good track
:49:16. > :49:21.record in said in terms, but the SNP is a pro-European party, not
:49:22. > :49:25.uncritical but still pro-European, and we have been massively
:49:26. > :49:28.successful at the ballot box. The idea that being pro-European will
:49:29. > :49:32.damage electoral fortunes is not upheld by the evidence in Scotland.
:49:33. > :49:36.I know there are other factors, Frank, but nonetheless it is an
:49:37. > :49:43.accurate you have to answer. Indeed, I think Scotland is another country.
:49:44. > :49:49.I think you will move to a position of independence, and I hope we will
:49:50. > :49:54.push for parliaments of all the countries, with England having a
:49:55. > :49:57.parliament, like you have, Wales and Northern Ireland. People in Scotland
:49:58. > :50:05.are voting for bigger issues than what they have to face, which is key
:50:06. > :50:09.for our future, the referendum. You have rather disarmed me with that
:50:10. > :50:14.proposal! Just briefly, to go back to the workers and working people in
:50:15. > :50:19.terms of which way they might go in this election, Alan Johnson has said
:50:20. > :50:22.that the reason why politicians like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove want
:50:23. > :50:34.to leave the EU is because they want to get rid of workers' rights comedy
:50:35. > :50:39.and think that is their main motivation? If you put your sticky
:50:40. > :50:44.fingers into their souls, you should have them here to answer that. The
:50:45. > :50:49.fallacy of that argument is that many of the social rights ones which
:50:50. > :50:55.we actually took into Europe, not in fact that somehow workers in this
:50:56. > :50:59.country were bereft of until the European, until we joined the
:51:00. > :51:03.European Union. I'll so think Alan Johnson's other comments today,
:51:04. > :51:10.believing that membership of the EU is more important to the country and
:51:11. > :51:14.to Labour voters that the act of settlement in 1945, if he thinks
:51:15. > :51:18.that... What we need to do is get a really good representation of Labour
:51:19. > :51:21.votes who wish to leave, to do so with their heads high, and not
:51:22. > :51:26.feeling this is a pro-lead to them crossing over to Ukip, because they
:51:27. > :51:34.feel they are not represented by the Labour Party. -- a prelude. We have
:51:35. > :51:38.heard perhaps that the economics from the Leave side is not the
:51:39. > :51:42.overriding issue for people. They are making that I come and because
:51:43. > :51:46.they are getting soundly beaten on the economics. But Stuart Rose said
:51:47. > :51:52.the wages of low skilled workers would rise if we left the EU, and he
:51:53. > :51:58.is on the Remain side. He could not member the name of the campaign! He
:51:59. > :52:03.has been taken off the shelf of the supermarket. It is antennae be the
:52:04. > :52:07.case that one of the reasons the progressive side of politics, by and
:52:08. > :52:12.large, with the exception of Frank and a few others, moved in favour of
:52:13. > :52:17.Europe in the 1990s, was the realisation that Europe was
:52:18. > :52:21.protecting social rights and workers per' rights. That was one of the
:52:22. > :52:25.reasons for the shift on the progressive side of politics. I
:52:26. > :52:28.think most people in the Labour Party would reflect on that. The
:52:29. > :52:34.problem with the European referendum to date is that voice is like Frank,
:52:35. > :52:37.Jeremy Corbyn, myself and the SNP, for understandable reasons, because
:52:38. > :52:42.by and large we are focusing on the local elections, have not had a real
:52:43. > :52:43.luck in, and we have had this argument within a fractious
:52:44. > :52:46.Conservative Party. No, don't worry, it's not
:52:47. > :52:50.quite one o'clock yet. But that was, of course,
:52:51. > :52:53.the sound of the famous It sounds every hour,
:52:54. > :52:57.but for how much longer? The Commons authorities have
:52:58. > :52:59.announced this morning plans to carry out a ?30m restoration
:53:00. > :53:01.project on the clock tower, and it could involve the bells
:53:02. > :53:04.being silenced for months. Adam, who's earning his pay today,
:53:05. > :53:10.has been finding out more. This is behind one of
:53:11. > :53:15.the Palace of Westminster's you realise the Elizabeth
:53:16. > :53:23.Tower is falling apart. The big enemy is water
:53:24. > :53:26.and condensation, which gets in everywhere,
:53:27. > :53:32.making the ironwork rust. On the outside, every single bit
:53:33. > :53:34.of stonework will be examined, which means the Elizabeth
:53:35. > :53:37.Tower will be sheathed in scaffolding for up
:53:38. > :53:39.to three years. The experts say the mechanism
:53:40. > :53:42.on the inside is like a car that has run every day for more
:53:43. > :53:45.than a century without a service. are also getting a loo, a lift,
:53:46. > :53:51.and somewhere to make a cuppa. And as somebody
:53:52. > :53:52.who looks after this clock, Well, it's massive,
:53:53. > :53:57.the clock is 150 years old, It's an incredible privilege
:53:58. > :54:02.to be involved, it's the most iconic clock
:54:03. > :54:04.in the world, and I'm thrilled
:54:05. > :54:06.to be part of the team responsible for securing its future
:54:07. > :54:08.for others to enjoy. Do you think people
:54:09. > :54:10.will get confused, not having the bongs
:54:11. > :54:14.and not having the time? I think they'll be sympathetic,
:54:15. > :54:17.we're going to keep the impact to an absolute minimum,
:54:18. > :54:20.so at all times there will be at least one dial
:54:21. > :54:22.displaying the time, to keep it chiming and striking
:54:23. > :54:28.for as long as possible. And in case you've got a pub quiz
:54:29. > :54:31.coming up, remember - And to discuss the restoration
:54:32. > :54:38.of Big Ben, and in fact the whole
:54:39. > :54:41.of the Houses of Parliament, I'm joined by the historian
:54:42. > :54:51.Dan Cruickshank. Welcome to the show. Why start on
:54:52. > :54:56.Big Ben? The whole place is falling down. It is falling down a bit more!
:54:57. > :55:00.It is about nine inches out of plumb, but it always has been, of
:55:01. > :55:04.course. The fascinating thing about the Palace of Westminster is that it
:55:05. > :55:09.had troubles from the start. In 1849, the stone was falling off, so
:55:10. > :55:14.it is part of the history, making do and amending. But this is where it
:55:15. > :55:19.is more visible, so why not start there? So you think that is
:55:20. > :55:24.worthwhile, but silencing the bells, can we imagine it? It happened
:55:25. > :55:30.before, of course, they have stopped in the past, during the bombing of
:55:31. > :55:36.1941. But it is worded to keep the whole machine up and running for the
:55:37. > :55:40.future. -- worth it. How long were they have to be silenced for? I
:55:41. > :55:44.understand it will stop and start, they will not be silent all the
:55:45. > :55:48.time, maybe a month or so. Of course, it is a tremendous machine,
:55:49. > :55:55.many people have not been up. Give as the image of it. It is escaping
:55:56. > :56:02.into a vast and wonderful world, it is made of iron, cast-iron, the
:56:03. > :56:06.material of the age, and the mechanism is sensational, huge, made
:56:07. > :56:16.by a very strange character. He was an architectural fantasist, but the
:56:17. > :56:20.bell, Big Ben, made in Whitechapel, and there is this gigantic mechanism
:56:21. > :56:25.balanced, when I was there, by old penny coins. They moved them a
:56:26. > :56:31.little bit to make the pendulum swing. It is magical. In terms of
:56:32. > :56:37.the broader repair of the Houses of Parliament, should it be done at any
:56:38. > :56:40.cost? Of course, it is the mother of Parliaments, the symbol of
:56:41. > :56:46.democratic government and so on. But in the end, it is a listed building,
:56:47. > :56:49.a great heritage site, what a fantastically bad example it would
:56:50. > :56:54.be for the government to give up its own listed building. It was on the
:56:55. > :56:59.cards for a year or two. It is inescapable. So you would be Joe Ham
:57:00. > :57:05.in your pocket, metaphorically speaking. -- you would put your
:57:06. > :57:09.hand. It would be deeply humiliating of Big Ben were not functioning. The
:57:10. > :57:14.leaning tower of Pisa managed to survive leaning for a while, but I
:57:15. > :57:17.am in favour of Big Ben. But I am suspicious, they are announcing the
:57:18. > :57:21.restoration of Big Ben, the closing of the tower, and that is being
:57:22. > :57:23.taken away from the overall restoration budget of the
:57:24. > :57:27.parliament, to make it look less. You see, I think the best thing to
:57:28. > :57:34.do with the Palace of Westminster, which after all is a Victorian fake
:57:35. > :57:39.of a restoration Palace, that is what it is. Is trying to provoke our
:57:40. > :57:47.guest?! Turn it into a tourist attraction. It cannot be a
:57:48. > :57:51.functioning parliament. So the substantial, provoking the market
:57:52. > :58:00.question... It is not a fake anything, it is a Victorian
:58:01. > :58:06.evocation... Of the Restoration, it is Restoration artwork. The
:58:07. > :58:09.alternative would be to abandon this vast and wonderful parliament. It
:58:10. > :58:13.should be a tourist attraction, the last thing you want is a burgeoning
:58:14. > :58:17.parliament in a building which is clearly unsuited to the 21st
:58:18. > :58:25.century. -- a bunch and ink parliament. Last word! We have got
:58:26. > :58:29.enough museums in this country some wonderful museums, it does a vital
:58:30. > :58:35.job. We are going to do the quiz, do you remember the question? Where did
:58:36. > :58:40.you steal the slogan from? I am hoping that it is LBJ, but I am
:58:41. > :58:48.suspecting it is not. It is Margaret Thatcher. That is why I said LBJ! It
:58:49. > :58:51.is the wrong answer! Thank you very much, Dan Cruickshank, I am sorry
:58:52. > :58:56.for rushing into that, that is it for today, thank you to our guests.
:58:57. > :58:59.The one o'clock news is starting on BBC One. Bye-bye.