:00:37. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.Iain Duncan Smith turns up the volume in the referendum campaign -
:00:43. > :00:46.laying into the European Union and saying the EU has become
:00:47. > :00:54.After another primary school test is leaked,
:00:55. > :00:56.the Department for Education says there's an active campaign
:00:57. > :01:00.to undermine the Government's school reforms in England.
:01:01. > :01:02.Almost 20 years after the Battle of Knutsford Heath, former
:01:03. > :01:06.Conservative MP, Neil Hamilton, returns to elected office
:01:07. > :01:09.with a seat in the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff.
:01:10. > :01:19.And 75 years ago today, German planes bombed the Houses
:01:20. > :01:22.of Parliament, destroying the House of Commons' Chamber,
:01:23. > :01:24.in the Luftwaffe's biggest air raid on London during the Blitz.
:01:25. > :01:34.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:35. > :01:37.of the programme today, one of the Labour Party's big
:01:38. > :01:40.beasts, David Blunkett, a former Home Secretary,
:01:41. > :01:43.Work and Pensions Secretary and Education Secretary.
:01:44. > :01:57.We'll look at Iain Duncan Smith's big speech on the EU
:01:58. > :02:01.First, though, let's take a look at the problems facing
:02:02. > :02:03.Yesterday the Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, faced questions
:02:04. > :02:06.in the House of Commons over her decision to scrap a plan
:02:07. > :02:09.to force all schools in England to become academies.
:02:10. > :02:11.And this morning the DfE said there is an "active
:02:12. > :02:13.campaign" by people opposed to the Government's schools reforms
:02:14. > :02:16.to undermine primary school testing, after another SATs exam
:02:17. > :02:21.We'll get the latest on that in a moment.
:02:22. > :02:26.First, here's Nick Morgan explaining the u-turn on academies yesterday.
:02:27. > :02:28.Academies are the vehicle which allow schools and leaders
:02:29. > :02:31.to innovate with the curriculum, have the flexibility to set the pay
:02:32. > :02:34.and conditions for their staff and bring about greater
:02:35. > :02:39.We still want every school to become an academy by 2022.
:02:40. > :02:42.However, we understand the concerns that have been raised about a hard
:02:43. > :02:50.deadline and legislating for blanket powers to issue academy orders.
:02:51. > :02:53.That is why, Mr Speaker, I announced on Friday,
:02:54. > :02:55.that we have decided it is not necessary to take blanket powers
:02:56. > :02:58.to convert good schools in strong local authorities to academies
:02:59. > :03:01.What she announced on Friday was a significant and
:03:02. > :03:06.However she wants to dress it up, dropping her desire to force
:03:07. > :03:09.all schools to become academies, by her arbitrary deadline of 2022,
:03:10. > :03:15.School leaders should take it as a very clear signal
:03:16. > :03:18.that the foot is off their throat and they shouldn't feel they need
:03:19. > :03:22.That was the Shadow Education Secretary, Lucy Powell, in the House
:03:23. > :03:26.This morning Ms Powell was on the attack again,
:03:27. > :03:29.demanding an apology from Nicky Morgan over the latest
:03:30. > :03:36.Ellie Price is across this story, and joins me now.
:03:37. > :03:43.What has happened exactly? Well this is a spelling, punctuation and
:03:44. > :03:47.grammar test aimed at 10 and 11-year-olds. 600,000 of them are
:03:48. > :03:52.due to take the test this morning and it was leaked online. If all
:03:53. > :03:56.this is sounding rather familiar it is because something similar
:03:57. > :04:00.happened about three weeks ago. The Department for Education this
:04:01. > :04:04.morning say they are blaming a rogue marker who leaked it online, someone
:04:05. > :04:08.who would have had access to the tests for marking purposes. They say
:04:09. > :04:13.it shows there is now clear evidence there is an active campaign by those
:04:14. > :04:18.people "opposed to our reforms to undermine these tests." There are
:04:19. > :04:21.people who are opposed to the tests. A number of teachers, the National
:04:22. > :04:27.Union of Teachers, are saying the wrong tests at the wrong time and
:04:28. > :04:30.should be scrapped this year. As you mentioned, Labour also suggesting
:04:31. > :04:34.these tests are wrong and today's leak was a further body blow to
:04:35. > :04:39.parents and teacher confidence in how the primary testing regime is
:04:40. > :04:42.working. This morning the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb answered an
:04:43. > :04:46.urgent question until the Commons, he insisted the culprit will be
:04:47. > :04:50.found and the breach will be investigated but that the Government
:04:51. > :04:57.testing regime is sound. Testing is a vatal part of teaching. It is the
:04:58. > :05:02.most accurate way, bar none, that a teacher, school or parent, can know
:05:03. > :05:07.whether a pupil has or has not understood vital subject content.
:05:08. > :05:10.What is more, the process of taking a test actually improves pupil
:05:11. > :05:15.knowledge and understanding. Now that was all in Parliament this
:05:16. > :05:20.morning but there has been 50,000 parent who signed an online petition
:05:21. > :05:24.against these tests. And you may remember, jo, you and I spoke about
:05:25. > :05:27.it last week when there were a number of parents who took their
:05:28. > :05:31.children out of school in protest against thoot tests all around the
:05:32. > :05:34.country. -- against these tests. So unpopular with some parents around
:05:35. > :05:37.the country. Now these tests have gone ahead this morning. The
:05:38. > :05:41.Government insisting that the integrity of them hasn't been
:05:42. > :05:47.breached, that actually only around 90 people would have had access to
:05:48. > :05:52.them and that eessentially they wouldn't have been - it wouldn't be
:05:53. > :05:57.too easy to cheat these online. As I say, the tests have gone ahead but
:05:58. > :06:02.certainly plenty of a row surround everything and one does wonder
:06:03. > :06:08.whether the words, debacle or sabotage will be in that test taken
:06:09. > :06:15.by 10 and 11-year-olds this morning. Let's get your reaction, David
:06:16. > :06:17.Blunkett, do you think it is Saab tong is blaming the educational
:06:18. > :06:25.establishment for a rogue marker fair? I think in -- sabotage I think
:06:26. > :06:30.in politics we are subject to paranoia and persecution complex. I
:06:31. > :06:33.understand given the debacle that this particular regime should feel
:06:34. > :06:38.that's the case with them. What has happened is different to last time.
:06:39. > :06:42.Last time the actual exam papers had been put out and some of the
:06:43. > :06:47.youngster has been able to see it and some of the tables able to teach
:06:48. > :06:50.to it. This time, as I understand t we are talking about the marking
:06:51. > :06:53.scheme. The marking scheme should have gone out after the exam papers,
:06:54. > :06:58.not with the exam papers. Obviously the exam papers have to go out
:06:59. > :07:01.before the test is set, but the marking scheme that has gone to the
:07:02. > :07:05.markers, many of whom are teachers, who are teaching in the field, they
:07:06. > :07:11.have to be, should have gone out afterwards. I don't know what has
:07:12. > :07:15.happened with Pearsons or whether Ofqual, the regulator has a grip of
:07:16. > :07:19.this or whether the department is going on, all I know it is one thing
:07:20. > :07:22.after another after another. But you think it is cock-up rather than
:07:23. > :07:29.conspiracy in that sense? I would work on that. I just caution Nicky
:07:30. > :07:33.Morgan and Nick Gibb. Back in 2002, just after I ceased to be Education
:07:34. > :07:36.Secretary, there was a problem over A-levels and the Conservative
:07:37. > :07:41.Government demanded the head of the then Secretary of State for
:07:42. > :07:47.Education. It was just one mess. This is what, two, three mess, if
:07:48. > :07:50.you count the academies debacle as well, with George Osborne taking
:07:51. > :07:55.charge of education and Nicky Morgan having to back off it. This mirrors
:07:56. > :08:00.what has happened in health. It mirrors of course what happened with
:08:01. > :08:04.wealth fair and Iain Duncan Smith's resignation. We will be coming to
:08:05. > :08:09.him, I gather, shortly. We have problems with the leaks from Panama.
:08:10. > :08:14.We have the tax credit debacle and the Budget. So it is one thing on
:08:15. > :08:18.top of another. Do you have some sympathy with Nicky Morgan and Nick
:08:19. > :08:21.Gibb? I should say we asked to speak to someone from the department, none
:08:22. > :08:26.was available, partly because they are in the House. They are trying to
:08:27. > :08:30.push through reforms. It would be easy to say the buck stops with the
:08:31. > :08:33.Secretary of State or minister and their head should role and all the
:08:34. > :08:38.rest of it. Actually I do have sympathy in the sense of what goes
:08:39. > :08:40.on down the line is in the end your be responsibility but you are not
:08:41. > :08:46.actually truly accountable and responsible for what has gone on but
:08:47. > :08:49.somebody needs to. I would ask what were Ofqual doing? What oversight
:08:50. > :08:53.did they have of the process. They were set up precisely to do that.
:08:54. > :08:59.They are an arm of Government. They pretend they are not, but they are.
:09:00. > :09:03.And very few people know about them, but they are very powerful. What
:09:04. > :09:08.about the testing regime itself, the Government would argue it is pushing
:09:09. > :09:13.through reforms, trying to intloe dues "a more rigorous testing and
:09:14. > :09:16.exam regime" for whatever purpose they see fit but if parents are
:09:17. > :09:19.prepared to actually strike, if you like and take their kids out of
:09:20. > :09:22.school, this is a bigger problem than perhaps just a battle as they
:09:23. > :09:31.would see it with the education establishment. Well, as they found
:09:32. > :09:37.in 1996, I go back a long way, where parents were marching in market
:09:38. > :09:40.towns from Shrewsbury and Truro. You cannot take on parents, teachers and
:09:41. > :09:43.the world all the a once. I'm in favour of the tests. I'm not in
:09:44. > :09:47.favour of the particular nature of the tests. I think Nick Gibb, who is
:09:48. > :09:51.responsible forethis, has carried this too far. It is very much... You
:09:52. > :09:55.mean the grammar test particularly? Well I'm in favour of grammar and of
:09:56. > :09:59.children learning how to write in such a way that they can express
:10:00. > :10:08.themselves clearly and be understood but actually learning some of the
:10:09. > :10:13.terminology, rather than having - where you put the comma, where you
:10:14. > :10:18.use an ex-clamation mark, how you construct a sentence, that's
:10:19. > :10:24.different to some of the things that six and seven-year-olds are having
:10:25. > :10:27.to know about the tech anicalities, which will turn them off. Let's take
:10:28. > :10:34.a fall stop there. Time for the quiz. -- a full stop.
:10:35. > :10:43.At the end of the show, David will give us the correct answer.
:10:44. > :10:50.Today was Iain Duncan Smith's turn to take stroll stage in the EU
:10:51. > :10:53.referendum debate. In a speech this morning, the former Work and
:10:54. > :10:55.Pensions Secretary set out his case for why leaving the EU was in the
:10:56. > :11:09.interests of social justice. Today, Iain Duncan Smith said
:11:10. > :11:11.the package the Prime Minister had negotiated would be very complex
:11:12. > :11:13.to implement, and would have limited
:11:14. > :11:22.impact as most EU In November 2014, David Cameron gave
:11:23. > :11:24.a flagship speech on immigration. According to former Work
:11:25. > :11:26.and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith today,
:11:27. > :11:28.he was planning to include a call of an "emergency break" to cap
:11:29. > :11:31.the number of migrants That, says the former
:11:32. > :11:34.Cabinet minister, was vetoed by the German Chancellor,
:11:35. > :11:36.Angela Merkel, as it went against the principles
:11:37. > :11:38.of freedom of movement. Fast forward to this
:11:39. > :11:40.year when David Cameron announced his deal with the EU,
:11:41. > :11:42.which instead included an emergency break on EU
:11:43. > :11:44.migrant benefits - a measure that would act as a more
:11:45. > :11:46.effective deterrent, according to Downing Street,
:11:47. > :11:49.than a simple cap on numbers. Today, Iain Duncan Smith said
:11:50. > :11:52.the package the Prime Minister had negotiated would be very complex
:11:53. > :11:55.to implement, and would have limited
:11:56. > :11:59.impact as most EU migrants come here to work,
:12:00. > :12:03.not to claim benefits. But Downing Street still
:12:04. > :12:05.insist the strategy ends the something-for-nothing
:12:06. > :12:14.culture of migration. In his speech this morning, Mr Iain
:12:15. > :12:18.Duncan Smith said the level of immigration from the European Union
:12:19. > :12:20.was widening the gap between the haves and have o notes. Here he is
:12:21. > :12:25.speaking earlier. We are at the point
:12:26. > :12:28.in the development of the world economy, where, if we are not
:12:29. > :12:31.careful, we are going to see a huge rise, even an explosion,
:12:32. > :12:33.in the have nots. We are going to see increasing
:12:34. > :12:35.divide between people who have a home of their own
:12:36. > :12:39.and those who, to coin a phrase used rather recently,
:12:40. > :12:41."Are at the back of the queue." To even get on to the housing
:12:42. > :12:45.ladder, people who have jobs that are threatened by automation
:12:46. > :12:48.and people who live in the shadow of the impact of technological
:12:49. > :12:50.innovation, people who benefit from the immigration of cheap
:12:51. > :12:57.nannies and barristers and labourers and people who can't find work
:12:58. > :12:59.because of uncontrolled immigration. There is a balance here
:13:00. > :13:03.that needs to be reset. And we've been joined
:13:04. > :13:10.by the Justice Minister and Leave I will come to you in a moment.
:13:11. > :13:13.Picking up the thrust of what Iain Duncan Smith was saying, David
:13:14. > :13:17.Blunkett, he talked about the pressures migration has put on
:13:18. > :13:21.housing, on schools, on pay, this widening gap between the have and
:13:22. > :13:26.have notes. Isn't it true that the only way to control migration in any
:13:27. > :13:31.serious form is to leave the EU? No, it isn't but he has got a point. I
:13:32. > :13:36.don't think there is any - if we are going to argue this sensibly, we
:13:37. > :13:40.don't just say yaboo, like Boris Johnson does on every occasion, you
:13:41. > :13:44.are an idiot. He is not an idiot and he has a be point because in
:13:45. > :13:48.particular parts of the country, a at a particular moment in time, the
:13:49. > :13:52.pressures that come as you get large scale inward migration, affect the
:13:53. > :13:56.poor the most. And that is a truth. Therefore, you have to rationally
:13:57. > :14:00.deal with that. You have to resource the community to be able to deal
:14:01. > :14:06.with T you have to have better planning of how you support people
:14:07. > :14:13.through it. -- deal with it. Having said that, I don't believe for a
:14:14. > :14:17.minute brake would work. People come here on holiday from Europe. How
:14:18. > :14:21.would we implement visas people have. How would we follow through on
:14:22. > :14:27.people who came on holiday and stayed and managed to get a job and
:14:28. > :14:30.would have had to have been sent back. It would have been a
:14:31. > :14:35.constitutional and practical nightmare. Let's be real about it,
:14:36. > :14:39.whatever the backward noise and whetherever he did or didn't say it
:14:40. > :14:44.Angela Merkel, it wasn't going to work in the first place. Let's pick
:14:45. > :14:47.up on the fist point because David Blunkett admits there are pressures
:14:48. > :14:51.on low paid and people on lower incomes but there are ways through
:14:52. > :14:55.it and to blame immigration for all the woes of all the country and
:14:56. > :14:59.particularly Iain Duncan Smith who has been part of this Government for
:15:00. > :15:03.six years, and yourself, it sounds like sour grapes. There can be
:15:04. > :15:06.benefits but only if it is controlled. We can't control it from
:15:07. > :15:09.inside the EU. David has talked about this sensibly. We need
:15:10. > :15:14.controls but critically in the debate we need to answer a question
:15:15. > :15:17.because there is pros and cons to staying in the EU and leaving, if we
:15:18. > :15:20.stay in we cannot control immigration from the EU. That brings
:15:21. > :15:24.pressure on housing, schools and the NHS. The question I think Iain has
:15:25. > :15:29.asked today is - who pays the price and how much is the price or is this
:15:30. > :15:32.just something they have to suck up? I think there is every reason to
:15:33. > :15:35.think that these pressures will get worse. Look at the national living
:15:36. > :15:38.wage, something we have introduced at ?7.20 an hour. Did you both
:15:39. > :15:44.support the wage when it first came in?
:15:45. > :15:51.I supported it. Iain Duncan Smith didn't. But it's all sounds very
:15:52. > :15:56.cheery, but he wasn't prepared to support the minimum wage. He has a
:15:57. > :16:00.huge pedigree and talking about social justice, but on the national
:16:01. > :16:05.living wage at ?7 20, we have to be realistic. That is the minimum in
:16:06. > :16:09.this country. If you are coming from Bulgaria or Romania, the average
:16:10. > :16:14.wage is about ?3, so that is its huge pull factor. These pressures
:16:15. > :16:17.will only get stronger. This may not matter if you can afford to have
:16:18. > :16:21.private health insurance or afford to send your kids to private school,
:16:22. > :16:25.but if you can't, it does. What the in campaign have to acknowledge is
:16:26. > :16:33.that price and who pays it. Before they entered, the Eastern European
:16:34. > :16:37.countries, entered the EU in 2004, we presume that they did not come
:16:38. > :16:43.here and they did not work here? Well, they did, because 40% of those
:16:44. > :16:50.who registered to work came out of the undergrowth, legally applied to
:16:51. > :16:54.pay national insurance and tax, and they were already in the country.
:16:55. > :16:59.The idea that you can protect yourself by putting barbed wire and
:17:00. > :17:03.electric fences on British soil, because of the moment we have them
:17:04. > :17:07.on French soil, but we wouldn't have if we came out of the European
:17:08. > :17:12.Union, is a nonsense. There is something short of barbed wire. You
:17:13. > :17:15.yourself said there was no obvious upper limit on immigration, but
:17:16. > :17:18.would you agree that is now a mistake, and if we're going to have
:17:19. > :17:21.a limited has to be done in a sensible way that eases the pressure
:17:22. > :17:27.is on local services and the low paid? I was asked by Jeremy Paxman
:17:28. > :17:32.at the time whether I could do this given that we had a labour market,
:17:33. > :17:37.before the changes in 2004, by the way, whether I could dream up a
:17:38. > :17:41.ceiling where we could send people back when we reached it and I said
:17:42. > :17:44.we couldn't because net migration is about those who leave as well as
:17:45. > :17:48.those who come, which is why the government target, which has fallen
:17:49. > :17:52.by the wayside, was a nonsense to begin with. So what about
:17:53. > :17:58.transitional controls? There were none. Wasn't that the problem? They
:17:59. > :18:02.ran out in 2011 because the maximum was seven years. In retrospect, it
:18:03. > :18:06.might have been more sensible. We did have them on Bulgaria and
:18:07. > :18:12.Romania. Yes, but back came to light on the basis of the numbers of
:18:13. > :18:16.Polish workers. Prior to 2008, the labour market, and Dominik believes
:18:17. > :18:21.in markets, the labour market could take it before 2008 and it actually
:18:22. > :18:24.helped the economy in a way that was beneficial when the collapse came
:18:25. > :18:28.because we have done a lot better, and credit to the government
:18:29. > :18:33.unemployment since 2010, a lot better than many other parts of
:18:34. > :18:36.Europe. David, you are right, and you have to have a level playing
:18:37. > :18:39.field. The point Iain Duncan Smith is pointing out is that it is fine
:18:40. > :18:44.if you're affluent and middle-class and able to withstand the pressures,
:18:45. > :18:47.but it's tough on the low paid and that those who rely on local
:18:48. > :18:54.services. I am conceding that he has a point. But the point is not one
:18:55. > :18:58.about coming out of the European Union, it's about how you deal with
:18:59. > :19:01.those pressures. But if you are conceding that point, and Frank
:19:02. > :19:06.Field, your colleague who is campaigning to come out, is saying
:19:07. > :19:09.that Labour supporting to remain is actually acting against the
:19:10. > :19:13.interests of the communities they purport to serve. I don't believe
:19:14. > :19:16.that for a minute. The government out of luck, and good on them, the
:19:17. > :19:20.habitual residence test that I was involved in strengthening when I was
:19:21. > :19:26.in government. That means that if people come here and they are not
:19:27. > :19:30.working and they pretend that they are not on holiday or visiting
:19:31. > :19:35.family, we have the right to remove them, and what we don't do is do
:19:36. > :19:39.that very well. The less there is, we should get better at it, and how
:19:40. > :19:43.much more difficult if we were actually trying to remove literally
:19:44. > :19:48.hundreds of thousands of people from the country. Let's come back to
:19:49. > :19:51.David Blunkett's point about the net migration target. That was nonsense
:19:52. > :19:55.by the target to introduce a net migration target because it hasn't
:19:56. > :20:00.got anywhere near tens of thousands and we are talking about 330,000 or
:20:01. > :20:05.thereabouts, so it was a nonsense and it still is. It is a good idea
:20:06. > :20:08.but you need to be able to control the real numbers. You can have a
:20:09. > :20:11.points -based system like in Australia. But you can't do that
:20:12. > :20:16.with people coming from one part of the world and not others, so that
:20:17. > :20:19.would be discrimination. What people want to restore confidence in the
:20:20. > :20:22.immigration system is to say that people will only come here if they
:20:23. > :20:25.are self-sufficient, we can have some real control over the overall
:20:26. > :20:29.numbers and that you can remove people who are a security threat and
:20:30. > :20:33.commit crimes. You can do none of those things if you stay in the EU.
:20:34. > :20:37.That's talk about the raw numbers. Be honest, would you radically be
:20:38. > :20:42.able to bring down the numbers of migrants coming to the UK outside of
:20:43. > :20:46.the EU? Would you want to bring it down? Some members of the Leave
:20:47. > :20:49.campaign have not wanted to talk about numbers or said that low
:20:50. > :20:54.numbers of migrants would be desirable. The Conservatives went
:20:55. > :20:59.into the last election pledging to reduce net migration to this country
:21:00. > :21:03.to tens of thousands and you haven't got an ability, a capacity to do
:21:04. > :21:09.that. I'm not talking about the ability, I'm saying is it desirable?
:21:10. > :21:13.What number would you like to see? Tens of thousands is a rather
:21:14. > :21:22.generic number, and I don't think you can decide that abstract way.
:21:23. > :21:27.But you said in 2003 that I should have been able to do that. What I'm
:21:28. > :21:31.saying is that what you want to do is take into account the economic
:21:32. > :21:33.advantages, the gaps in the skills market, but also take into account
:21:34. > :21:38.the pressure on local public services. That is an ongoing, fluid
:21:39. > :21:42.balance that should be made year by year. But of course you can say,
:21:43. > :21:48.with an annual limit, or a target... You would want that? Of course. We
:21:49. > :21:51.need to control the raw numbers or we will never regain public
:21:52. > :21:55.confidence and you can't do it inside the EU. Because you do accept
:21:56. > :22:00.that there will be many people wanting to vote leave who decided to
:22:01. > :22:03.vote leave who will be deeply disappointed if they then discover
:22:04. > :22:06.that what some as of the campaign actually want is a different set of
:22:07. > :22:09.migrants. They want to be able to pick them from different parts of
:22:10. > :22:14.the EU but the numbers won't come down that much. It is for any
:22:15. > :22:18.elected government elected by the people of the country, not faceless
:22:19. > :22:22.bureaucrats, to decide this. But the truth is you have no control over
:22:23. > :22:25.the overall volume unless we're outside of the EU and that is the
:22:26. > :22:28.critical thing that the British public understood about this. David
:22:29. > :22:31.Blunkett, what do you say to Trevor Phillips who was head of the
:22:32. > :22:34.equality commission, who said we are sleepwalking into a catastrophe over
:22:35. > :22:41.the impact of mass migration. Has he got a point? He has, worldwide, and
:22:42. > :22:43.he was talking worldwide, which is why you need the European Union and
:22:44. > :22:48.states across Europe to cooperate together. The idea that you allow
:22:49. > :22:57.Italy and Greece and Spain to actually cope with the influx, and
:22:58. > :23:00.that they won't flow across Europe, and the organised criminals behind
:23:01. > :23:05.the trafficking won't be there if we pull out is a nonsense. We actually
:23:06. > :23:10.do need to cooperate with each other to be able to stop it at source, to
:23:11. > :23:13.be able to deal with the causes, to be able to manage it once it is
:23:14. > :23:18.happening and we can only do that together if we don't have a flow of
:23:19. > :23:21.illegal migrants into this country, as opposed to people earning their
:23:22. > :23:26.living, paying their taxes, paying national insurance. That is the
:23:27. > :23:31.choice. We can have visas, because we would have to have if we had a
:23:32. > :23:36.fair 's system, where you didn't discriminate between Bulgaria and
:23:37. > :23:42.France, you have to have visas. And to have visas would be a disaster.
:23:43. > :23:46.There is a Visa waiver. Wouldn't it be a boundary or a block to business
:23:47. > :23:50.and trade if you had a Visa system? This is silly. In terms of tourism,
:23:51. > :23:54.whether it is short-stay or otherwise, in terms of people coming
:23:55. > :23:58.to business trips there's all sorts of arrangements whether it is
:23:59. > :24:03.automated visas or Visa waiver is, but you have the control, but
:24:04. > :24:07.outside of the EU we would regain control and the British people want
:24:08. > :24:11.to see that. Electronic controls four Mbyte cache and dashboard
:24:12. > :24:14.embarkation, you can do it. How are you going to decide how
:24:15. > :24:17.to vote in the EU referendum? And is it in fact possible
:24:18. > :24:19.to predict how you're going to vote, based
:24:20. > :24:22.on where you live, what you earn, and when you finished
:24:23. > :24:23.your education? Norwich used be the second city
:24:24. > :24:27.of medieval England, its prosperity It may have lost that lofty
:24:28. > :24:42.status today, but with the EU referendum, the question of its
:24:43. > :24:44.relation with the European Union, North and if I just walk a few
:24:45. > :24:51.meters down towards Oak Street, I'm heading towards Norwich
:24:52. > :24:53.South and there is no is just Norwich, but there are
:24:54. > :24:58.constituency boundaries and a body of work has been done
:24:59. > :25:07.that suggests the more of work has been done that suggests
:25:08. > :25:11.the more that I walk this way, Why this might be true
:25:12. > :25:15.is not an exact science,
:25:16. > :25:17.but based on data from around Britain, a group
:25:18. > :25:19.of academics are trying
:25:20. > :25:22.to show who we are - our background and education -
:25:23. > :25:25.is not insignificant in this to leave, more educated people
:25:26. > :25:34.are more likely to want to stay, so if you're looking at some
:25:35. > :25:38.of the constituency profiles
:25:39. > :25:40.you can say yes, this be leaning towards remain
:25:41. > :25:45.or leaning towards leave. That is all we are doing,
:25:46. > :25:48.we are just giving a guide to which seats are more
:25:49. > :25:53.or less Eurosceptic. Norwich North's Conservative MP
:25:54. > :25:55.is for remain, but she is aware that the population of
:25:56. > :25:59.her constituency is such that many Indeed, according to
:26:00. > :26:04.the model, they are far It is a slightly older
:26:05. > :26:10.constituency and that is there It is sad to say that they are
:26:11. > :26:14.earning very slightly However, we have high unemployment
:26:15. > :26:22.rates, so that starts to give picture of Norwich North
:26:23. > :26:30.is compared to Norwich South, if you look at
:26:31. > :26:31.the Later we caught up with two
:26:32. > :26:35.self-employed men buying timber, having driven to a yard
:26:36. > :26:37.on the constituency boundary. I can turn my hand to anything,
:26:38. > :26:39.gardening, For Darren and Adrian,
:26:40. > :26:43.the referendum choice is The EU has done nothing for anybody
:26:44. > :26:52.in this country. I can't say that
:26:53. > :26:58.anybody has benefited We can cross-ventilate,
:26:59. > :27:05.because it will come In Norwich South, the University
:27:06. > :27:13.has an enterprise zone and one business specialising
:27:14. > :27:19.in low-energy house design, the graduate-educated founder wants
:27:20. > :27:21.to remain for what she and long-term goals of EU
:27:22. > :27:24.environmental policy. She accepts the theory,
:27:25. > :27:26.though, that who you are People that have maybe
:27:27. > :27:31.knowledge about something and that is affected, either
:27:32. > :27:34.by in or out of the EU, they are better qualified,
:27:35. > :27:36.or maybe it's easier for them to make a decision,
:27:37. > :27:40.because it is clearer to them, because it is something really big
:27:41. > :27:42.that matters to them that they can
:27:43. > :27:48.base their decision on. Labour's MP in Norwich South is,
:27:49. > :27:54.as the model suggests most of his constituency are,
:27:55. > :27:57.for Remain and he thinks that deprived areas that are for Leave
:27:58. > :27:59.are more antiestablishment than People who feel left behind
:28:00. > :28:07.and that the system have failed them will identify with the arguments
:28:08. > :28:10.coming out of the EU which for them is something that sucks lots
:28:11. > :28:13.of money out of the country, does We can list all that,
:28:14. > :28:19.but it is a visceral feeling. I read papers but I don't honestly
:28:20. > :28:22.know what is going on. That visceral feeling
:28:23. > :28:24.comes across on the shop floor at MillTec,
:28:25. > :28:31.outside Norwich. I want to be British,
:28:32. > :28:33.that is my main incentive to be British, I don't
:28:34. > :28:35.want to be European. But the firm has
:28:36. > :28:38.reasons to remain for what they see as economic reasons,
:28:39. > :28:41.and that might be key. Work is probably the
:28:42. > :28:43.biggest part of my life in terms of where I
:28:44. > :28:46.spend most of my time, so that would probably be
:28:47. > :28:48.the Indeed, whatever the
:28:49. > :28:54.data trends, sometime the what's-best-for-you vote
:28:55. > :28:56.is perhaps the only incentive that David Blunkett and Dominic Raab
:28:57. > :29:06.are still with me, and we're now joined by Bert Bakker,
:29:07. > :29:08.Assistant Professor at the University of Amsterdam,
:29:09. > :29:12.who has been looking at what impact different types of personality have
:29:13. > :29:24.on attitudes towards the EU. What is your research finding? My
:29:25. > :29:28.researches about the question to what extent individual differences
:29:29. > :29:31.in personality traits are associated with your beliefs about politics.
:29:32. > :29:37.Perhaps it's best to briefly say what personality is, because you and
:29:38. > :29:42.your viewers at home will be forming an opinion about me. They might say
:29:43. > :29:45.he is shy or talkative. What we do when we study personality traits is
:29:46. > :29:51.we see to what extent people different -- differ in these
:29:52. > :29:54.descriptions. Some people are more open-minded, they are curious in
:29:55. > :30:00.nature. Others are less open-minded and are more dogmatic and bit less
:30:01. > :30:03.rich of fantasy and these differences are not good or bad,
:30:04. > :30:10.people differ and they shape how you respond to the world and change your
:30:11. > :30:15.behaviour in your work life balance or in your work. It at all show
:30:16. > :30:16.shape sure belief about politics. In that sort of instance what sort of
:30:17. > :30:29.person would vote to leave the EU? In the study we done, published
:30:30. > :30:32.recently, we studied Dutch voters and their attitudes towards
:30:33. > :30:36.different aspects on the EU. It is different from vote bug we see
:30:37. > :30:40.people who are in favour of expanding the EU, by adding more
:30:41. > :30:46.countries, such as ice land Turkey, Montenegro, are more open-minded and
:30:47. > :30:50.curious, they are more agreeable, more trusting, caring,
:30:51. > :30:56.tender-minded. These believes are not per se directly one on one,
:30:57. > :31:02.leading to voting for in the UK case, staying in the EU, but they
:31:03. > :31:08.are associated with it, so we have been looking Atajic tuds -- at
:31:09. > :31:13.attitudes. If you are support expanding the EU if, extrapolating
:31:14. > :31:16.my own research, there is probably a chance that open-minded, curious,
:31:17. > :31:20.full of fancy people, are also a little bit more people to be in
:31:21. > :31:27.favour of remaining in the EU. What about anti-EU sentiment? That's
:31:28. > :31:32.then, the opposite. So, if the other end of the dimension, people who are
:31:33. > :31:36.a bit more - and here not to make a value judgment - so these people are
:31:37. > :31:42.a little bit more close-minded, more rigid, perhaps a little bit less
:31:43. > :31:48.full of fantasy. A bit less likely to trust other people. Again, these
:31:49. > :31:56.are co-racials, so we don't know where the one is causing the other
:31:57. > :32:02.-- correlations. Stay with us. So, the obvious question, are you rigid,
:32:03. > :32:07.less full of fantasy, Dominic Raab, as somebody less staying in the EU?
:32:08. > :32:12.You know how open-minded I am. Which shows you how risky it is to
:32:13. > :32:14.introduce stereotypes. I think particularly in relation to
:32:15. > :32:20.undecided voters there are a mixture of head and heart. I took a
:32:21. > :32:24.rationical, logical vote, I'm in the someone who was always in favour of
:32:25. > :32:29.leaving the EU. It was the emotional heart aspect of t I want us to be in
:32:30. > :32:32.control of our own destiny. In particular t seems to me that those
:32:33. > :32:35.campaigning to leave, have the optimism and ambition, whereas those
:32:36. > :32:38.campaigning to stay in the EU, frankly are engaged in a lot of
:32:39. > :32:42.scaring mongering and doing down Britain. I think on the emotional
:32:43. > :32:46.pull factor, that's quite an important thing we have got on our
:32:47. > :32:50.side. Right, if we look at campaigning tactics, David Blunkett,
:32:51. > :32:55.and if you look at what was said in the film by people there, one of the
:32:56. > :32:58.contribute os said - I want to feel British again, and leaving the EU
:32:59. > :33:02.will satisfy that, the employers of one of the companies there, keener
:33:03. > :33:06.to stay in because of economics. Does this help in terms of targeting
:33:07. > :33:10.areas of the country and grouse of people in terms of how they might
:33:11. > :33:15.vote, because of their age or where they live. -- groups. We certainly
:33:16. > :33:19.know more people are more favourable to staying in, partly because many
:33:20. > :33:24.young people have travelled. Many young people have ambition for their
:33:25. > :33:30.own future and they feel that they are engaged in global activity.
:33:31. > :33:35.Whereas, for older people, whose travel experience may have been
:33:36. > :33:38.less, not wholly but may have been less, where fear of difference,
:33:39. > :33:42.where fear of the unknown, where somebody outside appears to be
:33:43. > :33:47.imposing, it is not so you are prizing there is a greater
:33:48. > :33:51.propensity to vote to come out. So here is the challenge - for the
:33:52. > :33:55.stay-in campaign, of which I'm a part. How do we persuade young
:33:56. > :33:59.people who don't usually vote, to vote and how do we persuade those
:34:00. > :34:04.who do normally vote, older people, to switch their vote? And that's why
:34:05. > :34:09.it is on a knife edge. Because that's the challenge. Well, Bert
:34:10. > :34:13.Baaker do you have any advice for the campaigns. Where should they be
:34:14. > :34:19.targeting the areas where they are not making an impact in terms of age
:34:20. > :34:23.and demography So, this is moving beyond the study we have done and
:34:24. > :34:28.extrapolating the findings a little bit but one could say that
:34:29. > :34:33.politicians perhaps could benefit from speaking what we call the
:34:34. > :34:38.psychological language of their constituency. So they might appeal
:34:39. > :34:43.to certain people by, for instance, if you want to persuade perhaps
:34:44. > :34:47.voters who are a bit more open-minded, curious, full of
:34:48. > :34:56.fantasy, like to experience new things, you might point out that
:34:57. > :35:02.staying within the EU offers them the opportunity to be involved in
:35:03. > :35:06.rich culture life to engage with new cultures. To be a part of that. I
:35:07. > :35:09.have not tested this. I have to be careful here. Thank you for
:35:10. > :35:10.clarifying that, at least. Yes. Listen, thank you very much for
:35:11. > :35:14.that. And do you Dominic. Now, what is the secret behind
:35:15. > :35:17.the success of Donald Trump? How did the businessman and TV
:35:18. > :35:20.personality go from rank outsider to presumptive nominee
:35:21. > :35:22.in the race to become the Republican Party's
:35:23. > :35:23.Presidential candidate? The American journalist
:35:24. > :35:25.John Podhoretz is in London today And as a former speech writer
:35:26. > :35:34.to not one but two former Republican Presidents,
:35:35. > :35:36.Ronald Reagan and George Bush Senior, he should
:35:37. > :35:38.have a better idea than most. We'll talk to John in a moment
:35:39. > :35:41.but first let's remind ourselves what Mr Trump has been saying
:35:42. > :35:45.in the last few months. When Mexico sends its people,
:35:46. > :35:50.they are not sending their best. I said - but I think we should go
:35:51. > :36:05.much, much, much further. I'm going to build a wall and Mexico
:36:06. > :36:15.is going to pay for it, right. He took the 50 terrorists
:36:16. > :36:18.and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 Written by a nice reporter,
:36:19. > :36:22.now the poor guy, you have got to see this guy,
:36:23. > :36:24."Oh, I don't know what I said, He is a war hero
:36:25. > :36:30.because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured,
:36:31. > :36:33.I hate to tell you. He is walking out, big high
:36:34. > :36:35.fives, smiling, laughing, I would like to punch him
:36:36. > :36:39.in the face, I tell you. Donald J Trump is calling
:36:40. > :36:43.for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims
:36:44. > :36:47.entering the United States, until our country's
:36:48. > :36:48.representatives can figure out They must think we are
:36:49. > :37:14.the dumbest and the weakest Memorable if anything else. And John
:37:15. > :37:25.Podhoretz joins us. Be honest, at the start of the primaries did you
:37:26. > :37:28.think Donald Trump would have a chance in No. When did you change
:37:29. > :37:33.your mine? About October. A while ago. The thing is all the evidence
:37:34. > :37:38.in front of one said he was going to win. He led in the poll. He joined
:37:39. > :37:42.the race in June of 2015 and he led in the polls after two weeks. And
:37:43. > :37:47.generally speaking, that's not a bad way to gauge whether someone is or
:37:48. > :37:52.is not going to end up as the party's nominee but it was so wildly
:37:53. > :37:57.improbably. I mean, I'm trying to think of the proper annalcy for a
:37:58. > :38:03.British audience to who Trump is, who probably played this game a lot.
:38:04. > :38:10.The best analogy I can think of is a kind of combination of the guy who
:38:11. > :38:16.used to host your Big Car show, Top Gear. Jeremy Clarkson. And some rich
:38:17. > :38:19.guy who builds buildings. So the notion that somebody like that, who
:38:20. > :38:27.has dabbled and interfered in politics here and there, would, out
:38:28. > :38:29.of nowhere, seize the major party nomination in a field of
:38:30. > :38:32.extraordinarily impressive candidates, marks a real turningp
:38:33. > :38:38.point for the American political system. What do you think was the
:38:39. > :38:43.one factor behind his success? Well, I think there are two. There are
:38:44. > :38:51.immediate factors and global, long-term civilisation factors. The
:38:52. > :38:55.immediate factor is that no other candidate in the race had anything
:38:56. > :39:00.like Trump's ability to command attention, which is one of the
:39:01. > :39:03.things that we thought most of us political experts thought was going
:39:04. > :39:08.it take him down. That the attention was all mostly negative. That he was
:39:09. > :39:11.saying horrendous things. He was repeatedly lying, that he didn't
:39:12. > :39:17.know anything about policy. But the sheer focus of attention on him, and
:39:18. > :39:22.the fact that it only seemed to help, rather than hurt, that was a
:39:23. > :39:27.big thing. But the global, the long-term thing is the collapse of
:39:28. > :39:30.the trust of the American people in its political and social
:39:31. > :39:34.institutions. Well, America isn't alone in suffering from that
:39:35. > :39:39.problem. And that is true, David Blunkett, you can't write off the
:39:40. > :39:43.support that Donald Trump has managed to gather during this race,
:39:44. > :39:47.by just saying they are a load of crazy, angry people on the fringe.
:39:48. > :39:52.No, you can see a resonance in terms of the crazy idea of building a wall
:39:53. > :39:56.and what we were debating in terms of Britain's place in Europe, the
:39:57. > :40:01.idea that you could cut yourself off. That you can do things that are
:40:02. > :40:05.rationally unthinkable, but in terms of inp stint and emotion -- instinct
:40:06. > :40:12.and emotion, capture people. He clearly has done that. I think the
:40:13. > :40:16.last point made was important. I mean, the breakdown of trust in
:40:17. > :40:19.traditional politics, in the ways of doing things that don't have
:40:20. > :40:22.spectacular outcomes, that don't immediately solve problems
:40:23. > :40:26.overnight, that can't actually wave a magic wand and put things right,
:40:27. > :40:30.people have lost trust in that general, slow, but critical process
:40:31. > :40:34.of democracy and when you have lost that, then you will get a Trump
:40:35. > :40:40.coming forward. You will end up with - well, let's pray to - I will
:40:41. > :40:45.anyway, as a methodist - I will pray that Donald Trump doesn't end up
:40:46. > :40:48.being the President of the United States, with Vladimir Putin as the
:40:49. > :40:53.President of Russia and Britain outside the European Union. Right,
:40:54. > :40:57.well there is an image for you to contemplate. People feel
:40:58. > :41:02.marginalised to such an extent that they are prepared to go out on a
:41:03. > :41:06.limb and vote for somebody like Donald Trump? If it were that people
:41:07. > :41:09.felt marginalised that would not be sufficient to explain the
:41:10. > :41:13.phenomenon. It should also be said by the way, as of this point, that
:41:14. > :41:17.2% of the American public has actually voted for Trump. We are
:41:18. > :41:22.simply assuming that we will get to the point at which, you know, he
:41:23. > :41:29.will gather at least 45% of the American vote. How many do you think
:41:30. > :41:32.he will? Well, I'm not sure. I believe that Hillary Clinton will
:41:33. > :41:36.win the election. I think his negatives, as we call them, are
:41:37. > :41:40.sufficiently high among women, among minorities, that there is no way
:41:41. > :41:43.that will he can cobble together a winning coalition but stranger
:41:44. > :41:47.things have happened, I suppose. Not many in politics. But, the
:41:48. > :41:52.institutional collapse I'm thinking of is the trust, not only in
:41:53. > :41:56.political institutions but in cultural and social institutions
:41:57. > :42:02.that often act adds a mediator between politicians and ordinary
:42:03. > :42:07.people. I'm talking about the Catholic Church in the United States
:42:08. > :42:10.which was a widely important force and a much-divorced guy, who is
:42:11. > :42:18.giving money to proabortion groups, that sort of thing, could never have
:42:19. > :42:21.prevailed in the Republican Party or indeed in American politics, 25
:42:22. > :42:24.years ago, in part because of the strength of the church which has
:42:25. > :42:30.collapsed. But we have had Bernie Sanders on the loaf, and socialist
:42:31. > :42:44.Americas were gravitate to him -- on the left. And Hillary Clinton, we
:42:45. > :42:48.are seeing it, to a lesser extent. This is the first election that is
:42:49. > :42:52.on the reckoning of the financial meltdown of 2008. That meltdown
:42:53. > :42:57.happened seven weeks before the election of Barack Obama. Then the
:42:58. > :43:02.2012 election was a referendum on Barack Obama's presidency and what
:43:03. > :43:06.we have here is a reckoning for what happened, the decline in home
:43:07. > :43:11.values, you know of 35 to 40%, it has just gotten to par and all of
:43:12. > :43:17.the consequences that fell from the worse recession in 70 years. And
:43:18. > :43:24.here is the think, if you have time - the 2008 meltdown was something
:43:25. > :43:27.that had to be saved by politics, old-fashioned politics, of people
:43:28. > :43:30.joining in, counterweighting what the market had done and yet it is
:43:31. > :43:35.politics and politicians who have got the blame for the aftermath and
:43:36. > :43:38.the austerity and the difficulty that that has caused. Well, let's
:43:39. > :43:39.see what happens over the coming months. Thank you very much for
:43:40. > :43:44.coming in. One of the more remarkable stories
:43:45. > :43:47.to come out of last week's 'Super Thursday' elections
:43:48. > :43:49.was the political comeback The former Conservative MP was one
:43:50. > :43:52.of seven UKIP politicians elected It's the first time UKIP has had any
:43:53. > :43:56.Assembly Members in Wales. This comes 19 years
:43:57. > :43:59.after Mr Hamilton lost his seat in the House of Commons
:44:00. > :44:01.to the so-called "anti-corruption" candidate Martin Bell
:44:02. > :44:04.in the 1997 general election. In that memorable campaign,
:44:05. > :44:06.for the Cheshire seat of Tatton, the tension between the two men came
:44:07. > :44:10.to a head in a confrontation that became known as "The Battle
:44:11. > :44:13.of Knutsford Heath". And Martin Bell arrived without any
:44:14. > :44:22.further prompting. I'd really like to know
:44:23. > :44:28.from you what allegations of corruption you think
:44:29. > :44:30.I'm guilty of? I don't actually intend
:44:31. > :44:36.to talk about you at all. People are going
:44:37. > :44:38.to ask me about you. I want you to run on your record or
:44:39. > :44:42.against your record, whatever it is. Do you accept a man is innocent
:44:43. > :44:45.unless proved guilty? Do you accept my
:44:46. > :44:51.husband is innocent? Neil Hamilton joins us now
:44:52. > :45:09.from the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff. Congratulations. How does it feel to
:45:10. > :45:15.be back in elected office at almost 20 years? It's amazing, isn't it?
:45:16. > :45:22.Especially at my advanced age. There is life after retirement. What are
:45:23. > :45:25.your thoughts for the coming months? Ukip has never been represented in
:45:26. > :45:29.the National Assembly of Wales before and there are seven of us out
:45:30. > :45:33.of 60 members, so we will be a major presence. Labour doesn't have an
:45:34. > :45:36.absolute majority, so we have the balance of power, so all sorts of
:45:37. > :45:40.things could happen. It could happen if there is not an internal battle
:45:41. > :45:47.in Ukip. Is it correct that this afternoon you will launch a
:45:48. > :45:54.leadership challenge on Nathan Gill? Ukip would not be Ukip if there were
:45:55. > :45:59.not internal challenges. It is not a case of mounting a challenge against
:46:00. > :46:03.Nathan Gill. We have not had any assembly members in the past and we
:46:04. > :46:09.have two former group and then elect a leader it. This is from ground
:46:10. > :46:15.zero -- to form a group. But he has been the group leader. It's not a
:46:16. > :46:18.challenge. He was appointed by Nigel Farage as the leader of Ukip in
:46:19. > :46:22.Wales, and whatever decision we take today will not affect that. But are
:46:23. > :46:28.you going to go for the leadership role? I'm going to be a candidate
:46:29. > :46:34.for the leadership, and my colleagues will decide who they
:46:35. > :46:38.want. I don't see this in terms of challenges or votes. I think what we
:46:39. > :46:43.will do is sit around the table together and we will arrive at a
:46:44. > :46:45.consensus view on who is the preferred leader of the group. Do
:46:46. > :46:49.you not think it would be fair and right to allow Nathan Gill,
:46:50. > :46:54.appointed by Nigel Farage, but as a result you have got assembly
:46:55. > :47:01.members, so he should be the leader and stay the leader? Being the
:47:02. > :47:04.leader of a group is a constitutional position in the
:47:05. > :47:08.assembly and we are obliged by the standing orders of the assembly to
:47:09. > :47:11.elect one. The qualities that you need to be successful in
:47:12. > :47:16.Parliamentary debate are very specific. I have had 14 years as a
:47:17. > :47:20.member of Parliament and I have been a government minister and even,
:47:21. > :47:23.bizarrely, been a member of the EU Council of ministers. I have a
:47:24. > :47:29.lifetime of experience in politics at the top end as well, as I'm sure
:47:30. > :47:33.you would agree, a fair amount of media experience. So I think I have
:47:34. > :47:37.a lot to offer and indeed that will be for my colleagues to decide. What
:47:38. > :47:42.is your game plan if you become leader? What will you tackle first
:47:43. > :47:45.of all? Well, we are not in charge of the business that will come
:47:46. > :47:51.before the assembly, so of course, we have to respond to events to an
:47:52. > :47:56.extent. And in the next few weeks, the referendum will be vitally
:47:57. > :47:59.important, outside the assembly as well, but assembly members will pay
:48:00. > :48:05.late -- play a significant role. Now we have this platform as assembly
:48:06. > :48:07.members in Wales will be out on the stump as well as operating inside
:48:08. > :48:12.the building. Nothing much will happen for several weeks anyway.
:48:13. > :48:16.Let's talk about one issue which has been in the headlines, which is Port
:48:17. > :48:21.Talbot and the steel industry. You mention the EU referendum and Ukip
:48:22. > :48:25.says only a British exit could save the plant at Port Talbot. Even if
:48:26. > :48:29.the UK did leave the EU, any impact on the industry would not be felt
:48:30. > :48:35.for years, and Port Talbot is in crisis now. So what would you
:48:36. > :48:41.suggest to help the industry? If we left the EU, we would be full
:48:42. > :48:46.members of the World Trade Organisation in our own right and we
:48:47. > :48:49.could propose our own anti-dumping duties on the low-cost Chinese
:48:50. > :48:58.steel. That would take time. It certainly would, and in the short
:48:59. > :49:02.term there is a problem because Tata wants to sell their assets and there
:49:03. > :49:05.are several bids for them. It is not for politicians to make a choice
:49:06. > :49:12.between the bidders. But certainly the politicians can help the process
:49:13. > :49:16.along so that one bidder is successful and, in the short term,
:49:17. > :49:19.there will be a reprieve, but what matters for the steel industry is
:49:20. > :49:23.whether it is viable in the longer term and that means cutting energy
:49:24. > :49:27.prices, getting rid of these crazy green taxes that make heavy industry
:49:28. > :49:34.viable in the UK and exporting these jobs to the far east and elsewhere.
:49:35. > :49:38.Only having an independent government, at Westminster or in
:49:39. > :49:42.Cardiff, gives us the power to control our energy prices to the
:49:43. > :49:45.extent that we need to take the best advantage of economic conditions in
:49:46. > :49:47.the rest of the world. Neil Hamilton, thank you very much.
:49:48. > :49:49.75 years ago tonight, the German Luftwaffe
:49:50. > :49:51.launched its heaviest air raid on the capital during
:49:52. > :49:55.The attack killed nearly 1,500 people and another
:49:56. > :49:59.casualty of the raid was the Palace of Westminster.
:50:00. > :50:02.The Commons Chamber was completely destroyed as the fire service
:50:03. > :50:12.focussed on saving the 900-year-old Westminster Hall.
:50:13. > :50:15.MPs spent the next nine years meeting in the Lords' Chamber,
:50:16. > :50:17.while their Lordships sat in the Robing Room.
:50:18. > :50:19.The new building was officially opened by King George VI,
:50:20. > :50:25.NEWSREEL: Today the impressive Churchill Door, built
:50:26. > :50:29.of the old Chamber, gives entrance to the new.
:50:30. > :50:32.The House keeps the old intimate atmosphere.
:50:33. > :50:36.For its furnishing, the dominions and colonies send gifts.
:50:37. > :50:39.The Speakers' Chair is from Australia.
:50:40. > :50:42.The galleries will now hold many more and loud speakers make
:50:43. > :50:49.New Zealand gave two despatch boxes and from Jamaica came the bar
:50:50. > :50:56.which is closed when the House is in session.
:50:57. > :50:58.Now to the Great Hall of Westminster.
:50:59. > :51:00.The Speaker of the House of Commons, Colonel Clifton-Brown,
:51:01. > :51:02.enters as the higher court of parliament assembles
:51:03. > :51:04.for the official opening of the new chamber.
:51:05. > :51:06.On the right, facing the thrones, sit the Commons.
:51:07. > :51:12.Behind the Speaker follow bearers of equal office or their deputies
:51:13. > :51:20.In their presence, they pay tribute to the Mother of Parliaments,
:51:21. > :51:31.from which their own government drew inspiration.
:51:32. > :51:33.And we've been joined by the historian and Labour MP
:51:34. > :51:39.Tristram Hunt and the Conservative MP Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.
:51:40. > :51:46.Welcome to both of you. How much of the building was actually destroyed?
:51:47. > :51:51.They had to make this great decision when you had the raid by the
:51:52. > :51:56.Luftwaffe whether to save the great medieval hall or the Victorian
:51:57. > :52:02.chamber. Quite rightly, they chose to save the medieval hall. So the
:52:03. > :52:06.chamber was absolutely smashed. This was a really big hit by the
:52:07. > :52:12.Luftwaffe. When you go into the chamber at the moment you still see
:52:13. > :52:18.the image, not the image, but you still see those elements which
:52:19. > :52:22.remained after the hit. It is almost like a grotto, that old stone as you
:52:23. > :52:26.going. Is that because those were the only bits that were kept that
:52:27. > :52:33.were not completely destroyed? So everything else is new? Churchill
:52:34. > :52:37.wanted a reminder of what had been, after the terrible damage inflicted
:52:38. > :52:40.by the bullets on this Day 75 years ago -- by the Blitz. He insisted
:52:41. > :52:47.that that was kept rather than rebuild. What about the architect
:52:48. > :52:50.engaged in the rebuilding? They chose the wonderful architect, Giles
:52:51. > :52:54.Gilbert Scott, who designed the gorgeous Anglican Cathedral in
:52:55. > :52:58.Liverpool and Battersea Power Station, and most famously of all,
:52:59. > :53:06.the old telephone boxes with that lovely dome. He was the grandson of
:53:07. > :53:09.the man who designed the wonderful hotel at Saint pancreas, the grand
:53:10. > :53:16.Midland Hotel. Which is an amazing building. So he had got this is in
:53:17. > :53:21.the blood, so the spirit of Scott, down to Giles Scott was there. So it
:53:22. > :53:28.was very much a conscious recreation. The continuity? Yes,
:53:29. > :53:32.continuity. We think of the Palace of Westminster as a celebration of
:53:33. > :53:36.democracy, building dedicated to democracy, but when you look at the
:53:37. > :53:43.care in the Palace, by far the greatest attention to detail and
:53:44. > :53:46.wealth is where the Queen enters the other end, and then down to the
:53:47. > :53:51.House of Lords where it is full of wonderful gold, and by the time you
:53:52. > :53:55.get to the Commons it is pretty and minimal, actually. The celebration
:53:56. > :53:59.of democracy, we are left right at the end. We will come to those
:54:00. > :54:04.comments in the end. What about your family connections? My great uncle
:54:05. > :54:09.was elected speaker in 1943 and one of the first things he had to do was
:54:10. > :54:12.preside over setting up a special House of Commons and House of Lords
:54:13. > :54:16.select committee to consider how to rebuild the chamber. Churchill made
:54:17. > :54:20.that great speech on the day saying we had to rebuild it as a symbol of
:54:21. > :54:25.Parliamentary continuity, and he said there must be no awkward gap,
:54:26. > :54:34.no hiatus in Parliamentary life. And it was Julie rebuilt. The committee
:54:35. > :54:39.was set up in 1943 and work started in 1944. By 1948 Churchill and my
:54:40. > :54:46.great-uncle laid the foundation stone. And by the 26th of October
:54:47. > :54:50.1950, they were all taking their seats in the new chamber, so in just
:54:51. > :54:54.nine years they had gone from nothing, and for those were war
:54:55. > :54:59.years, they had gone from a bombed chamber a brand-new chamber. Shows
:55:00. > :55:02.what can be achieved when you had the will. Churchill had to fight
:55:03. > :55:07.this battle because others say they wanted to do it after the war. He
:55:08. > :55:10.said do it now, because as soon as you come after the war there will be
:55:11. > :55:14.incredible demands on resources and there is always a time not to do it.
:55:15. > :55:19.Get on with it now. What about the reconstruction now, David Blunkett?
:55:20. > :55:22.That was then, and it has stood the test of time to a certain degree but
:55:23. > :55:28.all we hear about now is how it is crumbling. Ironically, Tristram was
:55:29. > :55:32.speaking at the University later this week, and the man who heads up
:55:33. > :55:37.the centre is engaged with the Palace of Westminster authority in
:55:38. > :55:40.terms of what comes after the restoration project. How should we
:55:41. > :55:45.shape what goes on inside the new building? It won't be the Luftwaffe
:55:46. > :55:50.at this time, it will be a massive multi-million pound renewal scheme.
:55:51. > :55:54.And the question that wasn't asked in the Second World War needs to be
:55:55. > :55:58.asked now, what sort of democracy and what sort of Parliament and what
:55:59. > :56:04.sort of activity do we want going on in there? How can we reshape,
:56:05. > :56:08.without losing all of the history, and of course the majesty of what
:56:09. > :56:18.goes on? I'm in the glorious bit at the moment. You enjoy it while it
:56:19. > :56:21.lasts. The old bed. -- the old bit. How do you envisage it? The
:56:22. > :56:24.continuity was there in the fabric of the building, but what about
:56:25. > :56:28.inside? We started talking about this in the beginning of the last
:56:29. > :56:34.parliament in 2010 and by my calculations it will not be built
:56:35. > :56:37.until 2028. That is a long, long time, much longer than they were
:56:38. > :56:42.able to do just the Second World War. And the answer to David's
:56:43. > :56:47.question, and he's absolutely right, we talked about the grand project
:56:48. > :56:52.and these billions in costs, but we haven't really concentrated on what
:56:53. > :56:56.we want to see inside. Should it be a modern looking building inside?
:56:57. > :57:02.This was the conversation they had during World War II. Do you then go
:57:03. > :57:06.to your semicircle, horseshoe shaped Parliament, to reshape how we do
:57:07. > :57:12.democracy and again Churchill was absolutely clear. Part of the reason
:57:13. > :57:15.we were at war with a continent was because we were against horseshoe
:57:16. > :57:24.parliaments. He felt that the rigour of the Parliamentary process on the
:57:25. > :57:28.British way was essential to the representative democracy and the
:57:29. > :57:33.freedoms we had, and if we lost that part of the symbols of what we were
:57:34. > :57:36.fighting for would be lost. There was inevitably an argument about
:57:37. > :57:44.where we should put it. There was a strong argument for Potters bar in
:57:45. > :57:51.1944. Two Labour MPs said, critically, there should be no
:57:52. > :57:52.essential decorations of pink. No, we are going to cap it here, because
:57:53. > :57:55.we're doing the answer to the quiz. who did Jeremy Corbyn
:57:56. > :58:12.meet last night? Congratulations to Siddique Khan.
:58:13. > :58:19.What about relationships between Jeremy Corbyn and him? Are they
:58:20. > :58:26.going to improve? From when? From now. He didn't want him anywhere
:58:27. > :58:30.near him during the campaign. Having nominated him, I thought it was
:58:31. > :58:34.quite sensible in Bristol, and I thought the win in Bristol was
:58:35. > :58:36.important, and you have to stop, as we sit it, being London centric all
:58:37. > :58:39.the time. On that basis we won't be. Thanks to David Blunkett
:58:40. > :58:45.and all my guests. The One o'clock News is starting
:58:46. > :58:48.over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11:30am tomorrow
:58:49. > :58:51.with Andrew for live coverage Drinking small amounts of alcohol
:58:52. > :59:06.isn't without risk. Eat more of this,
:59:07. > :59:14.drink more of that - can we really eat and drink
:59:15. > :59:18.our way to better health? Because my mother had dementia,
:59:19. > :59:22.there's always that anxiety - is it genetic? Is it something
:59:23. > :59:26.they've passed on to me?