:00:37. > :00:40.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Questions are still being asked over whether the Conservatives broke
:00:44. > :00:49.the law during last year's General Election campaign.
:00:50. > :00:57.At least nine police forces and the Electoral Commission
:00:58. > :00:59.are investigating whether some campaign spending was within
:01:00. > :01:01.the rules, while today there are new claims that mail shots
:01:02. > :01:05.Wales is still without a First Minister, with Labour
:01:06. > :01:07.and Plaid Cymru deadlocked over who should get the job.
:01:08. > :01:10.We'll be asking Ukip who they're going to back.
:01:11. > :01:14.We've been to Strasbourg to find out whether the EU's deal with Turkey
:01:15. > :01:25.over the migrant crisis could be close to collapse.
:01:26. > :01:33.You may or may not think much of the EU, but how European do we really
:01:34. > :01:35.feel? I don't know, I feel I am British
:01:36. > :01:41.and English, that's it. All that in the next hour,
:01:42. > :01:44.and with us for the first half of the programme today is Sam Coates
:01:45. > :01:47.of the Times, a paper which, it was once said, is read
:01:48. > :01:50.by the people who run the country. Well, we do count the Queen
:01:51. > :02:00.as a loyal viewer. First today, the International
:02:01. > :02:05.Monetary Fund are in London this morning for what was meant to be
:02:06. > :02:08.the IMF's regular review But managing director
:02:09. > :02:13.Christine Lagarde, flanked by Chancellor George Osborne,
:02:14. > :02:18.devoted most of the press conference to what she said was the risk
:02:19. > :02:22.to the UK economy if it votes She was asked by the BBC's
:02:23. > :02:27.Kamal Ahmed why the IMF felt it was appropriate to intervene
:02:28. > :02:31.in such a heated political We do that on a regular basis
:02:32. > :02:38.when there is a major We do that because we need
:02:39. > :02:50.to have a dialogue with authorities that are in power, in position
:02:51. > :02:53.and can actually take ownership of their policies and explain
:02:54. > :02:55.to us what their policies In the case of a referendum,
:02:56. > :02:58.that is another matter. The authorities are not going to be
:02:59. > :03:13.removed as a result of such matters. She did not intervene because there
:03:14. > :03:17.is an election, but she feels free to intervene even though there is a
:03:18. > :03:22.referendum, which many people may regard as even more important. How
:03:23. > :03:28.does that work? She is going to intervene again within a week of the
:03:29. > :03:32.referendum debate, because they will publish a full report flushing out
:03:33. > :03:38.all of the fire and brimstone and fire consequences that will follow.
:03:39. > :03:44.Is that fair? George Osbourne will be delighted that his friend has
:03:45. > :03:50.promised to deliver for the Remain side. They will not be handing off
:03:51. > :03:53.every word she says in Burnley today, I don't think this is a
:03:54. > :03:58.moment where there will be a big bout, but it is a building block of
:03:59. > :04:03.the Government and Remain case, there is a clean sweep of big
:04:04. > :04:10.international institutions that think it would be risky to vote
:04:11. > :04:14.Remain. She has a nice way with words, she says, I have talked to
:04:15. > :04:23.people, it is between quite bad and very, very bad if we leave. What she
:04:24. > :04:27.says is the IMF people have seen credible forecasts that we could
:04:28. > :04:32.lose up to 10% of our GDP if we vote to leave. Is this not getting
:04:33. > :04:40.ridiculous? We would be more serious than the great crash of 2008, which
:04:41. > :04:49.did not take 10% from us, more serious than the great depression,
:04:50. > :04:53.than the First World War. More serious than since the Romans landed
:04:54. > :04:57.on the south coast, 10% of GDP. It is more than a lot of the other
:04:58. > :05:02.forecasts we have had. It is a forecast... She had looked at what
:05:03. > :05:14.she called credible forecasts that range from 1.5 to 9.5. We don't know
:05:15. > :05:17.who the 9.5 is, which is key. The way that this works... At the IMF
:05:18. > :05:22.has been a political institution, that is how it will be attacked by
:05:23. > :05:29.the Leave campaign. You could make the case that it missed the
:05:30. > :05:32.financial crisis. You could say it asked Britain to change course at
:05:33. > :05:38.the point where the economy was recovering, and it did not need to.
:05:39. > :05:44.You can make a good case that its track record is chequered. Leave
:05:45. > :05:46.have put out a press release reminding people that Christina God
:05:47. > :05:53.could face criminal charges, there are no big institutions that Leave
:05:54. > :05:57.will not aim their bazooka at. They are playing the woman, not the ball.
:05:58. > :06:01.The question for is today is, what does former cabinet minister
:06:02. > :06:03.and Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith think
:06:04. > :06:07.Is it a) traffic wardens, b) the Treasury, c) the Britain
:06:08. > :06:13.Stronger In Europe campaign, or d) rain on bank holidays?
:06:14. > :06:17.And later on in the show Sam will give us the correct answer.
:06:18. > :06:19.Let's talk about the row over the Conservative Party's
:06:20. > :06:21.2015 election expenses, a matter which reached
:06:22. > :06:26.It's been a slow-burning story, but it's one that showing no
:06:27. > :06:28.signs of going away, as Channel 4 News continues
:06:29. > :06:32.If anything it's getting worse for the Tories.
:06:33. > :06:35.Yesterday the Election Commission took the party to court to force
:06:36. > :06:38.the party to hand over crucial documents which had been
:06:39. > :06:44.requested but which the party had failed to release.
:06:45. > :06:50.In April the Conservatives admitted failing to declare ?38,000
:06:51. > :06:55.of General Election expenses after a Channel 4 News investigation
:06:56. > :07:01.flagged up discrepancies in their election returns.
:07:02. > :07:04.The party blamed an "administrative error" for failing to register
:07:05. > :07:10.the accommodation costs of activists in their Battlebus 2015 operation,
:07:11. > :07:16.which bussed young activists around the UK to campaign in target seats.
:07:17. > :07:17.The Electoral Commission is conducting an investigation
:07:18. > :07:20.into this expenditure as there are strict guidelines
:07:21. > :07:25.on spending in individual constituencies.
:07:26. > :07:28.But the Conservatives say the Battlebus was part of a national
:07:29. > :07:32.campaign organised by Conservative central office, and therefore
:07:33. > :07:39.did not form part of the spending limit for individual candidates.
:07:40. > :07:43.In total, nine police forces are investigating whether election
:07:44. > :07:46.spending for candidates was properly recorded.
:07:47. > :07:49.Yesterday the Electoral Commission took the unusual step of making
:07:50. > :07:53.a court application to force the party to disclose
:07:54. > :08:02.And this morning we learn that police have been asked
:08:03. > :08:05.to investigate whether letters sent in David Cameron's name
:08:06. > :08:08.during the General Election campaign were also in breach
:08:09. > :08:17.Well, Conservatives haven't exactly been falling over themselves to talk
:08:18. > :08:22.about this story on air, but we did get the chance to ask
:08:23. > :08:29.the former party chairman Grant Shapps about it
:08:30. > :08:38.As chairman of the party, you allowed the expenses
:08:39. > :08:40.of these campaigners, who were going to local
:08:41. > :08:45.constituencies, staying in local hotels, you allowed them to be
:08:46. > :08:49.charged to the national campaign and not the local campaign?
:08:50. > :08:52.I was co-chairman, but compliance was not my side, the campaigning
:08:53. > :08:55.side was my side, but not the finance.
:08:56. > :08:58.You were behind the battlebus business.
:08:59. > :09:00.The campaign, but not the compliance.
:09:01. > :09:03.You did not wonder about the charges?
:09:04. > :09:05.I am not one to shirk my responsibilities,...
:09:06. > :09:21.Well, we're joined now by the BBC's Ross Hawkins.
:09:22. > :09:24.He's been looking into this story, which, as we said, is the product
:09:25. > :09:32.of a four-month-long investigation by Channel 4 News.
:09:33. > :09:38.We have also been reporting it regularly. Tell us about the
:09:39. > :09:44.mailshot development. The Liberal Democrats, one in particular, he
:09:45. > :09:48.says there is a problem with letters that got sent in David Cameron's
:09:49. > :09:52.name. They did not mention the constituency or say vote for a
:09:53. > :09:55.certain candidate, but they mentioned the place. The
:09:56. > :10:02.constituency. The letter mentioned the word Torbay repeatedly, and
:10:03. > :10:07.says, you have to vote Conservative in Torbay when the election comes.
:10:08. > :10:11.The point being made by the Liberal Democrat is, given as there was only
:10:12. > :10:16.one Conservative in Torbay, that was in support of the local candidate.
:10:17. > :10:20.The Conservatives say there is no mention of that candidate, and as
:10:21. > :10:32.far as they are concerned, this counts as national spending. The
:10:33. > :10:39.thunder -- you have a great big limit for national spending and a
:10:40. > :10:43.limit for local spending. The Conservatives were acting on the
:10:44. > :10:46.basis of understanding that they have done for years, it has been
:10:47. > :10:51.suggested to me that other parties have done this for years as well.
:10:52. > :10:56.The Channel 4 News investigation has challenged what the law means, and
:10:57. > :11:00.the law is fantastically vague. The test as to whether spending is local
:11:01. > :11:04.or not is whether it is with a view to or in connection with promoting
:11:05. > :11:09.or procuring the candidate's election. My goodness, what could
:11:10. > :11:14.that mean? It could mean a visit from a bus, it could not. The people
:11:15. > :11:20.who will tested the police and the courts. This is an issue of criminal
:11:21. > :11:23.responsibility. This is the distinction, if you overspend
:11:24. > :11:28.nationally, the actual commission investigates you, and if you get it
:11:29. > :11:33.wrong, you could pay fines, but it is not become an act. If you
:11:34. > :11:36.overspend at a constituency level, some of the money you have dedicated
:11:37. > :11:41.to your national campaign should have been logged with the local one,
:11:42. > :11:46.that is a criminal offence, you can go to jail for that, and that is why
:11:47. > :11:52.the police are investigating. Yes, and you could lose your seat. We
:11:53. > :11:56.have two parallel bits of law, to parallel investigates Reebok is, at
:11:57. > :12:00.both working around the one thing will affect the other, because if
:12:01. > :12:05.you did not get the National return right, the local one could be wrong.
:12:06. > :12:09.A whole bunch of police forces, who do not consider the final points of
:12:10. > :12:12.electoral law, are having to make a complex and sensitive decision about
:12:13. > :12:17.whether to ask for more time and fun to do this. If you were the one
:12:18. > :12:23.police force who did not bother, you risk looking a Charlie, if you are
:12:24. > :12:28.the four factors, quite a big risk on a very high profile place. A lot
:12:29. > :12:31.of chief constables are having to think hard about the decisions they
:12:32. > :12:38.make. The benchmark is quite high if you are the candidate, it has to be
:12:39. > :12:42.shown, because your agent signs of the spending in the constituency,
:12:43. > :12:48.that you knowingly sanctioned this extra spending for it to become
:12:49. > :12:54.criminal. You have to knowingly have submitted a full Sutton. That might
:12:55. > :12:58.be difficult. We are not lawyers, but you can go to a court case, find
:12:59. > :13:01.out somebody had done this knowingly, because they were
:13:02. > :13:04.following orders, the same orders that had held for previous
:13:05. > :13:11.elections, and people would turn around and look at those people at
:13:12. > :13:14.HQ, on whom there would not be a legal obligation, because they were
:13:15. > :13:17.not the ones that signed off the local return. Keep on it, we shall
:13:18. > :13:18.see where it goes. Well, we did naturally ask
:13:19. > :13:20.the Conservative Party for an interview this morning,
:13:21. > :13:22.but none was forthcoming. We also asked the Labour Party
:13:23. > :13:25.if they wanted to speak to us, But I am joined from our Leeds
:13:26. > :13:30.studio by the Liberal Democrat MP Greg Mulholland, he sits
:13:31. > :13:32.on the party's campaigns committee, and from Northampton
:13:33. > :13:44.by the professor of electoral law Can you give us a take on what
:13:45. > :13:52.potentially are the election rules that have been broken and what are
:13:53. > :13:58.the possible consequences? If one of the candidates did knowingly break
:13:59. > :14:04.election law by either overspending on their election expenses or by
:14:05. > :14:08.corruptly making a false declaration, there are quite serious
:14:09. > :14:14.consequences. If they just overspend, they would be liable to a
:14:15. > :14:20.fine and upon conviction they would be liable to a fine and liable to be
:14:21. > :14:24.suspended, thrown out of politics of three years. If they made a full 's
:14:25. > :14:33.return on their election expenses, in the way that somebody did
:14:34. > :14:37.allegedly some years ago, they would be liable to two years in prison and
:14:38. > :14:42.to be banned from sitting for Parliament for five years. There
:14:43. > :14:51.would be a by-election? Yes. That may come to you, -- let me come to
:14:52. > :14:53.you, is it not the case that all of the major parties use these
:14:54. > :15:00.battlebus is locally but they charge them to the national spend? I don't
:15:01. > :15:06.think that is the point. That is not the thrust of the excellent Channel
:15:07. > :15:12.4 News investigation. They have found documentation involving
:15:13. > :15:18.activists brought into some of these constituencies that showed up there
:15:19. > :15:21.were indeed being asked to and giving information to campaign for a
:15:22. > :15:28.local candidate in a local seat, and in the case of the letters
:15:29. > :15:34.identified, it clearly says Torbay. I can tell you, from my years as a
:15:35. > :15:40.candidate, I have always clearly been told by our party HQ that
:15:41. > :15:45.something if it mentions the area of the constituency or the candidate,
:15:46. > :15:46.it has to be declared on local expenses. That is a mistake that
:15:47. > :15:59.needs to be love that. All the major parties use Battle
:16:00. > :16:04.buses, all the major parties, but are you saying that the other
:16:05. > :16:07.parties use these for the national campaign and the Liberal Democrats,
:16:08. > :16:15.labour to your knowledge, whoever, they don't bus in activists to fight
:16:16. > :16:22.for a constituency on the East Battlebuses? We don't get the vast
:16:23. > :16:26.sums from business that the Conservatives do and we don't get
:16:27. > :16:41.the large sums from trade unions that Labour do. It is about the
:16:42. > :16:43.specific issue as to whether it is helping the local candidates. I
:16:44. > :16:49.understand, an interesting and important distinction. I can see how
:16:50. > :16:54.long this story has been running since it was first broken on Channel
:16:55. > :16:59.4 News. Is there not a sense that the electoral commission needs to
:17:00. > :17:03.have greater powers than the ability to access relevant data more quickly
:17:04. > :17:07.and more easily? As I understand it, we are almost at the end of the
:17:08. > :17:12.statute of limitations on this, they will need to ask for extra power,
:17:13. > :17:16.for more time to investigate it? There are two points there. The
:17:17. > :17:20.answer to your general question, should the electoral commission have
:17:21. > :17:24.more power to investigate, most people in the investigation will say
:17:25. > :17:32.yes but the issue about the statute of limitations, yes, under section
:17:33. > :17:37.176 of the relevant act, representation of the people act,
:17:38. > :17:41.the police get one year but they can go to the magistrates and ask for
:17:42. > :17:46.that to be extended to a period of two years. That is my understanding
:17:47. > :17:54.that that is under active consideration at the moment. Two
:17:55. > :17:58.years is the cut-off. It's clear the police do the job properly and will
:17:59. > :18:03.need to extend the time. How seriously are the Tories worried
:18:04. > :18:06.about this? Perhaps not as seriously as you might think, judging from the
:18:07. > :18:11.conversations I've had. The point that keeps being made to me is that
:18:12. > :18:18.we think that the hurdle that the police need to prove is that people
:18:19. > :18:24.knowingly and corruptly engaged in, as it were, fraudulent activity. If
:18:25. > :18:28.it was the case that Conservative headquarters legal advice President,
:18:29. > :18:32.what was believed to be the way that other parties campaigned all went
:18:33. > :18:36.along and did similar things to this, they believe it's going to be
:18:37. > :18:41.quite hard to mount prosecutions against individual MPs and force
:18:42. > :18:45.by-elections. You have a slightly chequered history in terms of
:18:46. > :18:49.electoral law enforcement in this country, the electoral commission's
:18:50. > :18:55.own record isn't that part. I think the test is very significant. No
:18:56. > :18:59.police force will want to be seen not to investigate, but when it
:19:00. > :19:03.comes to charging I think that is a different matter. Let me get a
:19:04. > :19:07.reaction from you, Mr Mulholland, to what Sam has just been saying. Those
:19:08. > :19:14.are issues for the Conservative Party but I think the fact that they
:19:15. > :19:20.are being dragged to the High Court because they weren't supplying
:19:21. > :19:24.information, that shows there Zurich 's questions that need to be
:19:25. > :19:30.answered. We need to get serious in capping donations per person per
:19:31. > :19:33.year at ?10,000, which we want to do but the other two parties are not
:19:34. > :19:39.prepared to do, they'll is walk away when we get to that stage in talks.
:19:40. > :19:46.What is the significance of this complaint now about letters being
:19:47. > :19:50.sent out in David Cameron's name mentioning the constituency? Is that
:19:51. > :19:54.on the margins of wrongdoing or is that something that should be taken
:19:55. > :20:01.seriously as well? I think that should be taken seriously because if
:20:02. > :20:04.they are mentioning individual candidates in individual
:20:05. > :20:07.constituencies, that ought to be... They don't mention the candidate but
:20:08. > :20:15.they mention the constituency, Ross was telling us. Sorry, Professor.
:20:16. > :20:19.The constituency... Well, I haven't seen the leaflets he was sending
:20:20. > :20:26.out, but I think that is certainly something that there is a serious
:20:27. > :20:31.question to be asked. The problem is, if it's got Conservatives and
:20:32. > :20:36.the former constituency, who do you think the leaflet is in favour of?
:20:37. > :20:40.It's not in favour of the Labour Party in that constituency. I think
:20:41. > :20:45.even I can work that out, Professor! Can I come back to one break point?
:20:46. > :20:52.Very briefly, please. One break point about the knowing, that is a
:20:53. > :20:55.significant point. What I would say to that is when you look at the way
:20:56. > :21:00.the law is tightened up following the Fiona Jones case, the
:21:01. > :21:04.significant tightening of the law, I think knowing is going to be a lot
:21:05. > :21:10.easier to prove than perhaps the Conservatives are suggesting. Thank
:21:11. > :21:22.you very much to both of you for joining us, gentlemen. Sam, Grant
:21:23. > :21:29.Shapps has gone. It is jacket hanging by sugary peg? I think Grant
:21:30. > :21:32.Shapps is quite enjoying the discomfort that Andrew Feldman is
:21:33. > :21:36.feeling over that and doesn't appear to be blinking at the prospect of
:21:37. > :21:40.hanging out to dry over this I think if there were a problem with this
:21:41. > :21:45.and there are prosecutions, I think that folds at Lord Fellman's door
:21:46. > :21:49.which is bad news for David Cameron that he supplies funding for the
:21:50. > :21:54.party. And they are friends going back to Brasenose College.
:21:55. > :21:56.Now, let's talk about Wales, which is still without
:21:57. > :21:59.a First Minister after dramatic scenes earlier this week which saw
:22:00. > :22:03.Labour won most of the seats up for grabs at last
:22:04. > :22:05.week's assembly election, that's 29 out of 60,
:22:06. > :22:07.but that means it failed to secure a majority.
:22:08. > :22:09.It meant that Labour leader Carwyn Jones needed support
:22:10. > :22:12.from opposition groups to come back to govern as First Minister.
:22:13. > :22:21.So on Wednesday, two candidates were put forward,
:22:22. > :22:23.Mr Jones for Labour and Plaid leader Leanne Wood.
:22:24. > :22:36.Labour, of course, backed Mr Jones, along with the sole Lib Dem,
:22:37. > :22:38.whilst the Conservatives, Plaid Cymru and the seven
:22:39. > :22:39.Ukip assembly members supported Ms Wood.
:22:40. > :22:44.Today, Labour and Plaid Cymru hold talks to try and break the deadlock.
:22:45. > :22:50.Assembly Members are expected to meet again next week to vote again.
:22:51. > :22:55.If there's still no decision, they have until 2nd June to decide,
:22:56. > :23:02.Well, yesterday the Daily Politics broke the news that two members
:23:03. > :23:05.of the Ukip group were offering to back Labour over Plaid if certain
:23:06. > :23:12.One of them is Mark Reckless, and he joins us now.
:23:13. > :23:17.Welcome back on the programme. So have you made up your minds yet on
:23:18. > :23:23.who you're going to support, you get? We haven't made up our minds
:23:24. > :23:32.because it depends how much of our manifesto, I spent months writing
:23:33. > :23:35.policies for the 20 devolved areas of Wales, we are able to influence.
:23:36. > :23:40.We would like to see a change of First Minister because we think
:23:41. > :23:45.democracy ultimately requires an alternation of parties who are
:23:46. > :23:49.leaving. When you say we, what do you mean? You're part of Ukip or a
:23:50. > :23:53.different part of Ukip? You are divided on this, aren't you? Seven
:23:54. > :23:57.of us in the assembly were elected which we thought was a fantastic
:23:58. > :24:04.result. We all want to intimate as much of the manifesto as possible.
:24:05. > :24:13.One area of that is scrapping the Severn Bridge tolls. The Severn
:24:14. > :24:18.Bridge act predates the devolution settlement. On the southern bridge,
:24:19. > :24:23.the toll Plaza, it is within Wales and highways were devolved. You need
:24:24. > :24:27.the bridge to go to the other side too. You may be asking the Cardiff
:24:28. > :24:31.assembly to make a deal over which it might not have the power. The St
:24:32. > :24:37.David's Day agreement and the cell commission said that the bridges
:24:38. > :24:40.would be dealt with by matter of agreement between the Welsh
:24:41. > :24:44.government and the UK Government. Ultimately if the Welsh government
:24:45. > :24:48.makes it its priority that it wants to scrap the tolls, there may be a
:24:49. > :24:56.cost to the taxpayer and we think a contribution to the maintenance is
:24:57. > :25:00.appropriate. But ultimately we hope they will abolish them. You have
:25:01. > :25:04.seven members in the Welsh assembly. Yes. How many are supporting Carwyn
:25:05. > :25:08.Jones and how many are supporting Leanne would? We are all supporting
:25:09. > :25:14.Leanne Wood, we all voted for her four days ago and if there was
:25:15. > :25:17.another vote on Tuesday with no changes, we would all voted for her
:25:18. > :25:24.against. So there is no splinter group trying to do a deal with
:25:25. > :25:27.Carwyn Jones? No, there are people individual parties speaking to me as
:25:28. > :25:34.an assembly member and no doubt speaking to others. Every time I
:25:35. > :25:38.have those conversations, I say a key part of our plans is to scrap
:25:39. > :25:44.the Severn Bridge tolls but also develop the East West business links
:25:45. > :25:51.and infrastructure. I think we can benefit from being linked to the
:25:52. > :25:56.stronger economy in Bristol and also... Other than a Time for
:25:57. > :25:59.change, what do you have in on with Plaid Cymru? We want to scrap the
:26:00. > :26:04.tolls and we want to have the blue route for the black route for
:26:05. > :26:10.Heathrow which will create more money to spend in Wales. We would
:26:11. > :26:14.like to have more money for local elections. They are all Plaid Cymru
:26:15. > :26:20.policies as well as Ukip once. If you had to guess the way it works
:26:21. > :26:23.out, who do you think will be the First Minister? I think it's quite
:26:24. > :26:28.likely Plaid Cymru will come to some sort of deal with Labour. I don't
:26:29. > :26:32.think there's any need for us to negotiate with them because we will
:26:33. > :26:37.vote for Leanne, as we showed. There is a lot of overlap in those areas
:26:38. > :26:41.I'm talking about. To improve the east-west links and scrap the tolls.
:26:42. > :26:45.I think it's most likely that Plaid Cymru will cook up some sort of deal
:26:46. > :26:48.with Labour but if possible we would like the opportunity to implement as
:26:49. > :26:53.much of our manifesto as we could and we are willing to work with
:26:54. > :27:00.anyone in Wales to do that. Is Neil Hamilton your new leader in Wales?
:27:01. > :27:04.Yes, he was elected by the Cabinet. I voted for Nathan Kilcourse his
:27:05. > :27:08.opponent, but Neil won the vote and we have a Democratic party and I
:27:09. > :27:21.respect that. So he is the leader in the assembly? Yes. What is Nathan
:27:22. > :27:29.Gill doing now then? He is the leader in Wales. So you have two
:27:30. > :27:34.hopes but only seven members? -- two Popes! We have a group of seven in
:27:35. > :27:38.the Welsh assembly and we will use it for the good of the people of
:27:39. > :27:40.Wales. And we shall keep an eye on you as you do. Thank you very much,
:27:41. > :27:42.Mr Reckless. We know you don't need to love
:27:43. > :27:46.the EU in order to feel European. After all, many leading Leave
:27:47. > :27:48.campaigners have strong Boris Johnson has French
:27:49. > :27:54.and German ancestry, with a bit of Turkish
:27:55. > :27:56.and Russian thrown in too. So do people in this country feel
:27:57. > :28:05.that they have a bond, a cultural affinity,
:28:06. > :28:07.with our continental neighbours? For the mood box today
:28:08. > :28:11.we have come to Croydon, because a lot of this referendum
:28:12. > :28:13.is about identity. Lots of people think
:28:14. > :28:15.about themselves as British, but do they also think
:28:16. > :28:17.of themselves as European? I dunno, I just feel I am
:28:18. > :28:35.British and English. Do you feel European
:28:36. > :28:42.at all? Does it surprise you that
:28:43. > :28:46.lots of British people I think they have a very
:28:47. > :28:56.strong national feeling. I think they have a very
:28:57. > :29:01.strong national feeling. Not in a bad way, but they are proud
:29:02. > :29:06.of their country, it is OK. They are two separate
:29:07. > :29:10.things really, I think. I think the British,
:29:11. > :29:13.mainly because we are an island, People are definite about that,
:29:14. > :29:21.but if I asked a Frenchman or a German or a Spaniard,
:29:22. > :29:26.they would feel European as well. We have all trade, we have all our
:29:27. > :29:49.holidays in Europe, so we have Would you also say
:29:50. > :29:53.you were a European? Welsh first, then European,
:29:54. > :30:05.I would say. "I am holding my Welsh identity
:30:06. > :30:12.but I see myself as European," I think we are all part of a bigger
:30:13. > :30:19.world, and you can't No, I am not a European,
:30:20. > :30:27.I am an Englishman and This result is unexpected,
:30:28. > :30:39.but also quite complicated. No was winning clearly to start
:30:40. > :30:43.with, then a number of people who live here but are European,
:30:44. > :30:47.a third of those yeses were people who are Europeans
:30:48. > :30:49.who live in Britain... That is all Brits who don't feel
:30:50. > :30:53.European. It is almost ending
:30:54. > :30:57.up with yes in front. I try not to predict these things,
:30:58. > :31:01.I did not expect this result. That was Giles with the entirely
:31:02. > :31:03.unscientific mood box. Well, we're joined now by one
:31:04. > :31:06.man who feels European. He's the former MEP and father
:31:07. > :31:08.of Boris, Stanley Johnson. And by one woman who doesn't,
:31:09. > :31:24.the etiquette expert Liz Brewer. Put aside the mood box, according to
:31:25. > :31:29.more scientific surveys 64% of British people don't feel any sense
:31:30. > :31:37.of European identity. You are not winning. I am surprised with that.
:31:38. > :31:43.We have to distinguish between feeling European and separating out
:31:44. > :31:51.from the EU. This was European identity, it was carried out by the
:31:52. > :31:56.European Commission. They would have liked a different result. 51%
:31:57. > :32:03.increase, 43 Ireland, 36 France. We were the least. I am related to
:32:04. > :32:09.Boris, you have seen in the introduction his European men
:32:10. > :32:14.launch, a French word there, and etiquette is a French word. Do I
:32:15. > :32:21.field European? I was born in England, I am British, but if I
:32:22. > :32:26.field European, no, I feel English. You teach etiquette, which is a
:32:27. > :32:34.French word. We have many French words,... It might be a Norman word.
:32:35. > :32:40.Which I don't like! You ask me a question, what do I feel? I bought
:32:41. > :32:46.myself an apartment in Berlin, I go there, I still don't field European,
:32:47. > :32:53.I still feel very British. You feel like a Berliner! I feel exactly the
:32:54. > :32:59.same as I do here. Why did you buy one? Investment! I feel European
:33:00. > :33:03.because my ancestors came from Europe. One or two came from
:33:04. > :33:10.Britain, my mother was half French, I have turkeys and Shastri, so I
:33:11. > :33:18.feel I am rooted in this. Where you are brought up, you have tradition,
:33:19. > :33:24.values, a way of behaviour, and it is different, we are different from
:33:25. > :33:30.people overseas. Culture is different. The Romans were here for
:33:31. > :33:36.400 years, the Normans, people were speaking French here until the 13th
:33:37. > :33:46.or 14th century. Norman French, but still pretty good French. Not if you
:33:47. > :33:49.came from Paris! The road to Rouen! Is there anything he could say to
:33:50. > :33:57.convince you? You could be on a sticky wicket. You start talking
:33:58. > :34:03.European, we are multinational. Mike Russell is the fact that when we go
:34:04. > :34:09.overseas, we conform, and we learn how to behave in their culture. I
:34:10. > :34:14.agree on one thing, the Englishness. I don't feel British, I feel
:34:15. > :34:16.English. On that point, we will leave them to try to convince each
:34:17. > :34:17.other. It's time now to find out
:34:18. > :34:19.the answer to our quiz. The question was, what did
:34:20. > :34:22.Iain Duncan Smith say Was it a) traffic wardens,
:34:23. > :34:26.b) the Treasury, c) the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign,
:34:27. > :34:28.or d) rainy bank holidays? It was a well-known left-wing
:34:29. > :34:37.critique at the time. Coming up in a moment
:34:38. > :34:41.it's our regular look at what's been For now, it's time to say goodbye
:34:42. > :34:45.to my guest of the day. So, for the next half
:34:46. > :34:49.an hour we're going to be We'll be discussing
:34:50. > :34:52.the European Commission's decision to block a major mobile-phone
:34:53. > :34:55.merger, the EU's deal with Turkey and what's been happening
:34:56. > :35:02.in Portugal since the crash. First, though, here's our guide
:35:03. > :35:04.to the latest from Europe No doubt it was in your diary,
:35:05. > :35:20.who could forget Europe Day? People came together to mark
:35:21. > :35:22.the annual celebration of peace and unity, even Nigel Farage
:35:23. > :35:25.was caught humming Beethoven's Back in the real world,
:35:26. > :35:31.ambassadors were dealing with the migrant crisis,
:35:32. > :35:34.backing a European Commission plan to extend internal border controls
:35:35. > :35:38.for a maximum of six months. New rules were passed to make it
:35:39. > :35:42.easier for Europol to set up units to respond immediately
:35:43. > :35:45.to terrorist threats. US officials are cheesed off
:35:46. > :35:48.with one warning that the transatlantic trade deal
:35:49. > :35:51.could be scuppered by plans to ban the sale of American-made products
:35:52. > :35:56.labelled feta or champagne. It came under strain with 11
:35:57. > :36:00.countries showing a yellow card to the European Commission
:36:01. > :36:03.over its recent proposal to ensure equal pay
:36:04. > :36:06.for workers posted overseas. And with us for the next 30 minutes
:36:07. > :36:17.I've been joined by the Ukip MEP Jonathan Arnott and the Labour MEP
:36:18. > :36:23.Richard Howitt. Let's take a look at one of those
:36:24. > :36:26.stories in more detail, and that's the decision by a group
:36:27. > :36:28.of Eastern European governments to flash a yellow card
:36:29. > :36:31.at European Commission proposals to level wage differences
:36:32. > :36:36.between local workers and those sent abroad within the EU,
:36:37. > :36:50.known as posted workers. It is quite hard to make the yellow
:36:51. > :36:55.card stick? This is the third time it has happened, but this is the
:36:56. > :37:00.democracy in Europe, national parliaments having a voice. The deal
:37:01. > :37:04.going to the British referendum is a red card. On this issue, I and my
:37:05. > :37:10.party want action to stop exportation of rights. We will carry
:37:11. > :37:13.on doing that we want that to change. But the fact that there is a
:37:14. > :37:22.democratic debate going on, one that I believe we can win, on the
:37:23. > :37:27.fundamental principle of equal pay for workers, whichever country you
:37:28. > :37:31.are from, that is a big detection for low paid, insecure workers in
:37:32. > :37:35.Britain, but I expect we can win that, but in a democratic fashion.
:37:36. > :37:41.That is what European politics should be about. What do you say on
:37:42. > :37:46.the ability of European Parliament 's to lay down a yellow card if they
:37:47. > :37:50.don't like what is going on? As has been mentioned, it is only the third
:37:51. > :37:59.time it has happened. It is a difficult procedure to implement,
:38:00. > :38:02.very clunky. It takes at least nine countries to all within eight weeks
:38:03. > :38:06.get something through their own individual parliaments to say to the
:38:07. > :38:12.commission, we want you to think again. On one of the previous two
:38:13. > :38:14.occasions when this happened, on the Public prosecutor 's office, the
:38:15. > :38:20.commission said it would plough ahead with that kind of thing
:38:21. > :38:26.anyway. We see that time and time again. Is it likely to happen again?
:38:27. > :38:31.We will see, but if you take that example, we need to clamp down on
:38:32. > :38:39.tax evasion, corruption, and Europe needs to have more teeth. You have
:38:40. > :38:42.changed the goalposts. Having MPs voting against banking regulation
:38:43. > :38:47.and cracking down on tax havens, if that really what people want? Nobody
:38:48. > :38:56.is saying you should not crack down on tax havens. You voted against. We
:38:57. > :39:00.should do that at Westminster, as a British Government, not something
:39:01. > :39:04.which should be done at EU level. You moved the goalposts, because we
:39:05. > :39:08.were having a discussion about the democratic issue, he said how
:39:09. > :39:13.democratic it was, I pointed out it is not that democratic for the
:39:14. > :39:18.commission to plough on anyway, and you moved on to the issue in son of
:39:19. > :39:21.the principal. We shall see, and we thank Jeremy Corbyn for raising
:39:22. > :39:27.this, because we would not have known what it was. Twice. We have
:39:28. > :39:28.now followed it. Now, the ?10.3 billion deal to marry
:39:29. > :39:34.O2 and Three was meant to be a final reshaping of Britain's
:39:35. > :39:36.mobile phone market. It would have left the UK with just
:39:37. > :39:39.three major mobile But the EU's competition
:39:40. > :39:44.commissioner had other ideas and she's blocked the takeover
:39:45. > :39:48.on the grounds it would reduce To tell us more I'm joined
:39:49. > :40:03.by the BBC's technology Nice to see you again. This was a
:40:04. > :40:09.merger between two British companies, largely affecting the
:40:10. > :40:14.British market, what is the provenance of Brussels in this kind
:40:15. > :40:21.of merger? Deals above a certain level to get referred to Brussels.
:40:22. > :40:24.The BT/ EE merger, which was even bigger, that stayed in Britain
:40:25. > :40:31.because just about everything to do with it was happening in Britain. O2
:40:32. > :40:38.and Three are to foreign companies, O2 is owned by Spanish company, it
:40:39. > :40:43.wanted to get rid of it, and Three is owned by a Hong Kong company, it
:40:44. > :40:46.wanted to buy it. They were both keen to have this case decided in
:40:47. > :40:51.Brussels, because they thought Brussels would be kinder to them
:40:52. > :40:58.than our regulator of calm. That worked! Ofcom made its views very
:40:59. > :41:02.strongly known in Brussels, it wrote a number of stiff letters, it said,
:41:03. > :41:07.we don't want to go down from four operators to three, and in the end
:41:08. > :41:13.Russells agreed. That has come as a shock to the whole telecoms
:41:14. > :41:17.industry. This is not a case of this being approved by the British
:41:18. > :41:20.competition authorities and then being overruled by the Brussels
:41:21. > :41:25.competition authorities, this went to Brussels and the British
:41:26. > :41:31.authorities are pretty happy with the result? They are very happy,
:41:32. > :41:36.they seemed worried that Brussels would let it through against their
:41:37. > :41:40.well. The telecoms companies are cross about this, they would rather
:41:41. > :41:47.Europe looks at the market as a whole, how many players there are in
:41:48. > :41:50.the market across Europe, rather than just one country will stop they
:41:51. > :41:55.feel there needs to be consolidation. They don't feel they
:41:56. > :42:00.are making enough money in Europe. They should look at my roaming
:42:01. > :42:08.charges and wonder why! What will be spit companies do now? Is that it
:42:09. > :42:12.over for the merger? It probably is, although there is talk of the Hong
:42:13. > :42:16.Kong company appealing. The Spanish company will look for another
:42:17. > :42:23.partner. It really wants shot of this business. It will hunt around,
:42:24. > :42:32.there is talk of virgin's owner coming in for the business instead.
:42:33. > :42:37.This is quite good news for British consumers, it keeps up choice and
:42:38. > :42:40.competition for mobile phone users. In a lot of ways this is the same
:42:41. > :42:44.principle of the previous discussion we have just had. We have had to go
:42:45. > :42:48.to Brussels to get an answer for something, and in the end of the
:42:49. > :42:54.same thing that Ofcom wanted in the first place. I believe that should
:42:55. > :43:01.have been a decision for the UK to take, whether we have three or four
:43:02. > :43:04.operators in the UK. There are a lot of issues surrounding that, and it
:43:05. > :43:11.should fundamentally be a decision for the British Government. The fact
:43:12. > :43:14.it has been decided by Brussels is a fundamental problem. It seems it was
:43:15. > :43:22.decided by them because that is what the companies wanted. Putting that
:43:23. > :43:26.aside, the number of mobile phone companies we should have operating
:43:27. > :43:30.in Britain should be a matter for the Brits? It is a proposed merger
:43:31. > :43:38.between a Spanish giant and a Hong Kong based giant. They are a good
:43:39. > :43:44.company, they run Felixstowe port in my constituency. But it is for the
:43:45. > :43:51.British market. The EU should not have a view about that? But have
:43:52. > :43:56.also stepped in and stop similar mergers in Denmark and Italy. His
:43:57. > :44:02.point is they should not be doing that either. I can see the point,
:44:03. > :44:07.Brussels getting involved, if it is a matter of European wide
:44:08. > :44:11.commission, -- competition, but if this was about the British market,
:44:12. > :44:16.should it not be left to the British competition authorities? It does not
:44:17. > :44:21.seem that the result would have been any different, but it is a matter of
:44:22. > :44:25.sovereignty. It is another great example where what Britain wanted
:44:26. > :44:32.one, we do win the argument. But it is in Europe's interest that we have
:44:33. > :44:39.investment in mobile phone technology, we have gone to 3G, 24
:44:40. > :44:45.the next generation will be five G, and there is an issue, what will get
:44:46. > :44:49.the new infrastructure invested in by the big companies? It is
:44:50. > :44:54.competition, not consolidation. All of the evidence shows that. I have
:44:55. > :44:58.no problem with competition, the Duquesne should be taking those
:44:59. > :45:01.decisions, and I believe the decision would have been the correct
:45:02. > :45:05.one, had we decided it in the UK. We should not have to apply to Brussels
:45:06. > :45:15.to ask whether they will... Some of these things are good
:45:16. > :45:21.things, why don't we just wake up and recognise it? The average
:45:22. > :45:24.telephone user is paying ?52 less per year on their mobile phone bill
:45:25. > :45:35.because Europe cut the mobile phone charges. Come on. Look, on my phone
:45:36. > :45:39.network, if I'm in Switzerland, if I'm in the USA there are no roaming
:45:40. > :45:46.charges whatsoever. It's called the free market. It's bringing prices
:45:47. > :45:49.down not just in the EU... How much do we pay to be part of the European
:45:50. > :45:52.single market? Now, the deal struck between the EU
:45:53. > :45:55.and Turkey aimed at easing Europe's migration crisis has had some
:45:56. > :45:57.success, contributing to a major easing of the flow of people
:45:58. > :46:02.across the Aegean Sea to Greece. But it's not exactly been
:46:03. > :46:05.without controversy. Part of the deal was to give
:46:06. > :46:08.Turkey's 79 million citizens visa-free access to the EU,
:46:09. > :46:11.and the promise of progress on talks But this week it's looked under
:46:12. > :46:22.serious strain, over Turkey's refusal to change
:46:23. > :46:32.its laws on terrorism. There were a lot of conditions to
:46:33. > :46:35.this Visa free travel laid out by the EU.
:46:36. > :46:38.Our Jo Coburn has been in Strasbourg, finding out more.
:46:39. > :46:39.Migrants crossing illegally from Turkey to Greece
:46:40. > :46:43.The one for one deal so far slowing the influx
:46:44. > :46:57.For every migrant deported to Turkey, a legitimiate Syrian
:46:58. > :47:04.So far, 3 billion euros in aid and the prospect of Visa free travel
:47:05. > :47:06.for its citizens in the Schengen area if the country
:47:07. > :47:10.The question over whether those have been reached has opened up a huge
:47:11. > :47:12.gulf between the commission and the European Parliament.
:47:13. > :47:16.The Turkish visa issue was debated here in Strasbourg this week.
:47:17. > :47:18.With general agreement that the country is still falling short
:47:19. > :47:28.A majority in this Parliament has stated clearly that we believe
:47:29. > :47:30.that over the last years, and especially if you look
:47:31. > :47:34.during the last 12 months, Turkey is increasingly moving away
:47:35. > :47:37.from meeting European standards, rather than doing what one
:47:38. > :47:40.would expect from a candidate EU country, to move towards meeting
:47:41. > :47:43.We have great concerns for the parliament when it
:47:44. > :47:45.comes to the rule of law, democracy, press freedom.
:47:46. > :47:49.There are five EU benchmarks that need to be reached by Turkey.
:47:50. > :47:53.On corruption, data protection, reaching a deal with Europol,
:47:54. > :47:55.judicial cooperation on criminal matters
:47:56. > :48:04.Despite high-level talks between EU officials and Turkish ministers,
:48:05. > :48:08.some MEPs are up in arms about the whole deal itself.
:48:09. > :48:17.I think that the best way forward is to put our own house in order,
:48:18. > :48:23.to solve ourselves the refugee crisis by putting in place European
:48:24. > :48:31.border and coast guards, which we don't have,
:48:32. > :48:34.by putting in place a new European asylum system not long the Dublin
:48:35. > :48:38.system, and putting in place new ways of legal migration.
:48:39. > :48:42.The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, has been
:48:43. > :48:45.of literally rolling out the red carpet for Turkey
:48:46. > :48:47.in exchange for the country's help to deal with
:48:48. > :48:50.There are many MEPs here at the European Parliament who also
:48:51. > :48:53.believe it brings the idea of Turkey's access into the EU
:48:54. > :49:01.That claim has been dismissed by members of her political group.
:49:02. > :49:03.She is really fighting for a good neighbourhood.
:49:04. > :49:06.She is really working on the issue and tries to convince Turkey,
:49:07. > :49:13.because Turkey is an important partner in the Nato partnership.
:49:14. > :49:17.Turkey is important as a neighbour in between this area of Syria,
:49:18. > :49:24.But MPs sceptical of the entire European project claim its leaders
:49:25. > :49:27.are deliberately linking the migrant deal with talks for Turkey's EU
:49:28. > :49:34.membership because they are looking ahead beyond the current crisis.
:49:35. > :49:35.TRANSLATION: Juncker, Schultz and Merkel want to allow
:49:36. > :49:38.Turkey into the European Union because it will mean cheaper
:49:39. > :49:42.labour and lower wages for workers in many countries.
:49:43. > :49:53.MPs are due to vote on the visa free travel deal on June 28,
:49:54. > :49:59.Turkey's president has warned that if his country is not
:50:00. > :50:07.given the Visa waiver, he will end the migration deal.
:50:08. > :50:18.Is this EU, essentially German- Turkey deal, is it in danger of
:50:19. > :50:25.unravelling? Is it sustainable? Doesn't fully respect human rights?
:50:26. > :50:29.We don't know and we are asking some very tough questions about it. Do
:50:30. > :50:33.you have to approve it, as a Parliament? We didn't have too
:50:34. > :50:37.approve the initial deal, our job is to scrutinise it. We also
:50:38. > :50:42.responsible for some of the cash which goes straight through the NGO
:50:43. > :50:46.Global to the refugees to assist them. It has stopped people dying at
:50:47. > :50:50.sea and we have to welcome that, surely. It has improved the welfare
:50:51. > :51:00.of people, hungry and defenceless, in Turkey. RU worried about it? Of
:51:01. > :51:04.course I'm worried about the deal. Some have pulled out because they
:51:05. > :51:08.don't believe international humanitarian law is being respected.
:51:09. > :51:12.Of course I'm worried. Is there a danger that this deal will unravel,
:51:13. > :51:16.or in your view should it unravel, should we have done this deal in the
:51:17. > :51:20.first place? My view is that the UK should vote to leave the European
:51:21. > :51:24.Union. So what the European Union does in its deal with Turkey is up
:51:25. > :51:30.to the European Union. While we're still in it, I have big problems
:51:31. > :51:34.over the VZ deal and the amount of money we're sending to Turkey and
:51:35. > :51:38.other candidate for the European Union. We're sending a lot of
:51:39. > :51:42.British taxpayers's money out to those countries at the moment to
:51:43. > :51:47.help them join the EU and I see that as a massive problem. In terms of
:51:48. > :51:52.the deal itself, if the UK weren't in the European Union, I would say
:51:53. > :51:58.it's a matter for the EU to decide what it wants to do. With the UK in,
:51:59. > :52:04.I have to be concerned... We're not in Schengen, though. It certainly
:52:05. > :52:11.does mean that it's a lot easier for people to get closer to the UK. But
:52:12. > :52:15.the roles for Turkey, the Visa free waiver for Turks, and only about 7
:52:16. > :52:20.million Turks have passports anyway, though it's not like it really is 79
:52:21. > :52:25.million, it still doesn't get them into this country. Are you saying
:52:26. > :52:30.that more Turks wouldn't apply for passports? I'm sure they might, but
:52:31. > :52:35.that's quite a prolonged... I suppose what concerns the blues
:52:36. > :52:40.this. For a longer read, the European Union rewarded Turkey with
:52:41. > :52:44.access shouldn't talk 's and access to the European market. As Turkey
:52:45. > :52:49.liberalised and became more modern and democratic and so on. Now it
:52:50. > :52:52.seems to be rewarding Turkey as it becomes more theocratic, less
:52:53. > :52:56.liberal and more authoritarian. We've seen the Prime Minister who
:52:57. > :52:59.did this deal with the EU come he's been shunted out of the way by the
:53:00. > :53:04.president, who may now be putting one of his relatives in as Prime
:53:05. > :53:08.Minister. That's not good for the EU. Ultimately he wants to change
:53:09. > :53:12.the constitution and have even more power in his hands. I'm not going to
:53:13. > :53:20.hide those concerns but not simply is the Umana Terry and case, but in
:53:21. > :53:23.cost terms it's cheaper to help refugees where they are now rather
:53:24. > :53:29.than coming into Britain. In the local election campaign Ukip ran a
:53:30. > :53:33.party political broadcast where they said 15 million Turks would come to
:53:34. > :53:36.Britain by 2020. It's not true. You've heard the parliamentary
:53:37. > :53:42.negotiator in your interview say this is something they're moving
:53:43. > :53:49.further away from and not closer to. You cannot believe the claims that
:53:50. > :53:57.they make. No one is saying that that many people... No he didn't. So
:53:58. > :54:05.what are you saying? What we're saying is that if Turkey joins the
:54:06. > :54:10.European Union, and more accession chapters are being opened, there
:54:11. > :54:15.would be more rights for them to come. We can't say how many would
:54:16. > :54:20.come but we can say how many had the right to come. Provided we don't
:54:21. > :54:26.veto it, of course, and that the French don't have a referendum, both
:54:27. > :54:31.of which are quite likely. It's something that's only going to
:54:32. > :54:35.happen if ever in the long-term... Using it in this referendum is
:54:36. > :54:39.simply to scare people. The problem with vetoes, of course, is that once
:54:40. > :54:47.you give it up you can't get it back. You've got to trust Cameron
:54:48. > :54:51.not to give it up, Corbyn... Only recently the Prime Minister seemed
:54:52. > :54:56.to be a big fan of Turkey joining the EU and it went to Portugal
:54:57. > :55:01.because it was the third Euro country area to have to ask for a
:55:02. > :55:02.bailout after Greece and Ireland, following the banking crash in 2008.
:55:03. > :55:06.This was done in 2009. Portugal was the third Euro-area
:55:07. > :55:09.country to have to ask for a bailout after Greece and Ireland
:55:10. > :55:11.during the economic crisis of 2009. And it's still facing low
:55:12. > :55:13.growth and struggling In the latest in our
:55:14. > :55:16.Meet The Neighbours series, Adam Fleming has been
:55:17. > :55:28.to find out more. I suppose this is Portugal's
:55:29. > :55:35.Birmingham, its second city, Porto. During the Eurozone crisis Portugal
:55:36. > :55:39.was bailed out by the EU to the tune of 78 billion euro,
:55:40. > :55:42.?62 billion, on the condition they Portugal left the bailout
:55:43. > :55:47.programme two years ago, They are underemployed architects
:55:48. > :56:01.who now host walking tours First stop, a new hotel,
:56:02. > :56:04.built with EU funds. We are not blaming this hotel
:56:05. > :56:10.in particular, or even This hotel had over 5 million euros
:56:11. > :56:28.in tax money from Europe. At least in Portugal there is not a
:56:29. > :56:29.debate on this, there is not a general conversation about what are
:56:30. > :56:32.we supposed to do with tax money. Instead, they would rather see this
:56:33. > :56:35.old car-parts factory spruced up There will be an informal school,
:56:36. > :56:49.some places to take care a workshop for wood
:56:50. > :56:53.and metal in the middle. On the way, you see
:56:54. > :57:00.a lot of empty shops. The thing that upsets them the most,
:57:01. > :57:03.though, is how many of their I feel sad that so many people
:57:04. > :57:09.had to go. That I don't like. Because I don't
:57:10. > :57:11.think it's smart, as a country logic.
:57:12. > :57:13.We desperately need those same people that we lost.
:57:14. > :57:30.Things are looking much, well, rosier here.
:57:31. > :57:31.One partnership owns some big port brands.
:57:32. > :57:34.It is a British-run company that has done OK
:57:35. > :57:42.We bought a number of businesses, we launched businesses.
:57:43. > :57:46.People thought I was insane to be launching a five-star luxury hotel
:57:47. > :57:49.in 2010 in the middle of the crisis, but the truth is people
:57:50. > :57:53.want to travel, people want to explore and discover,
:57:54. > :57:55.and this is what you can do here in Portugal.
:57:56. > :58:06.Yes, recession is tough, but it is in those environments
:58:07. > :58:09.where good businesses tend to do well and the weaker businesses tend
:58:10. > :58:12.Although politics here is now more of a completed cocktail,
:58:13. > :58:14.a coalition government led by socialists, propped up
:58:15. > :58:16.by communists, with a right-wing president, and the European
:58:17. > :58:20.Commission keeping a close eye on what is going on.
:58:21. > :58:28.Adam living the life there in Portugal. The Eurozone crisis never
:58:29. > :58:32.quite goes away, does it? At least the pain for the people most
:58:33. > :58:35.affected. The Portuguese Socialists have struck up a good relationship
:58:36. > :58:39.with British Labour and Jeremy Corbyn personally, and you have a
:58:40. > :58:42.minority government there that is going to be out of the bailout
:58:43. > :58:45.scheme this year and which has replaced a Conservative government
:58:46. > :58:51.that brought in all the cuts but the debt went up. So it's a better news
:58:52. > :59:01.story than we think. OK, we shall see. That's it for now. Thank you
:59:02. > :59:03.for joining us, come back and see us soon am a goodbye for now.