:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:45.David Cameron warns that a vote to leave the EU would increase
:00:46. > :00:49.the cost of a family holiday abroad, in a speech to EasyJet employees.
:00:50. > :00:52.Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, brands the PM "Dishonest Dave"
:00:53. > :00:59.We'll bring you all the latest from the campaign trail.
:01:00. > :01:01.As huge advances are made in robotics and artificial
:01:02. > :01:03.intelligence, MPs discuss the legal and ethical issues raised
:01:04. > :01:13.And we'll reveal what happened when a second-year art student
:01:14. > :01:23.decided to use Jeremy Corbyn in her fine art project.
:01:24. > :01:26.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:27. > :01:27.of the programme today, American-born playwright
:01:28. > :01:41.Let's kick off with the news that councillors in North Yorkshire have
:01:42. > :01:43.voted to allow fracking near the village of Kirby Misperton.
:01:44. > :01:46.It's the first fracking application to be approved since 2011.
:01:47. > :01:47.The decision was condemned by anti-fracking protesters,
:01:48. > :01:49.who are concerned that the controversial technique
:01:50. > :01:52.which extracts oil or gas from rocks by pumping liquid into them
:01:53. > :02:01.at high pressure will contaminate the water supply.
:02:02. > :02:10.Bonnie Greer, it is being seen by some as a bit of a watershed, this
:02:11. > :02:16.approval for fracking, do you think it is the first of many more?
:02:17. > :02:24.Legally it isn't, because I understand there is a mine there,
:02:25. > :02:29.but once you open this particular gate it sets out a possible
:02:30. > :02:34.precedent for it to happen again. Fracking in America of course is big
:02:35. > :02:41.news. It has changed the economy. It has made the country less dependent
:02:42. > :02:47.on foreign oil, but it is a grave and big disturbance to the earth. It
:02:48. > :02:53.has caused water problems, it has caused problems in communities.
:02:54. > :02:57.There has been evidence of that? Absolutely and people don't like it.
:02:58. > :03:02.The question of whether this will be something for the future or not
:03:03. > :03:08.deserve the public debate. The fact the government has done it or made
:03:09. > :03:12.it a fey to complete takes it away from communities to talk about how
:03:13. > :03:16.it impacts them. The British government is in favour of fracking
:03:17. > :03:20.because it says it will boost supply and the economy and therefore energy
:03:21. > :03:24.security for this country, and because it is clearly a lot smaller
:03:25. > :03:28.than the states, where fracking has been carried out, there would be
:03:29. > :03:32.layers of regulation to make sure things like the water table not
:03:33. > :03:35.being contaminated, that there wouldn't be tremors caused by
:03:36. > :03:41.fracking, although of course that was the reason that an application
:03:42. > :03:47.before was put on hold. What do you say to that? If it was highly
:03:48. > :03:51.regulated, could it work safely? We need to stop comparing this country
:03:52. > :03:56.to the United States, two different places. We need a better survey of
:03:57. > :04:01.local terrain. I haven't seen anything like that. To make a
:04:02. > :04:05.generalisation is really to take that template from America and apply
:04:06. > :04:15.it to the UK, and I think in general that is always a bad idea. We do
:04:16. > :04:17.need to have more investigation. I support the people of North
:04:18. > :04:21.Yorkshire and hopefully this doesn't set a precedent.
:04:22. > :04:24.This Thursday the Psychoactive Substances Act comes into force,
:04:25. > :04:27.which will see a ban on so called legal highs.
:04:28. > :04:30.The Home Office has published a handy guide for retailers on how
:04:31. > :04:33.to deal with the new law, so our question for today is,
:04:34. > :04:34.what might the guide prevent shopkeepers from selling
:04:35. > :04:50.Is it whipped cream, full roasted coffee beans, herbal tea or chilli
:04:51. > :04:52.powder. It is not obvious. At the end of the show, Bonnie
:04:53. > :04:56.will give us the correct answer. David Cameron and Nigel Farage have
:04:57. > :04:58.been out on the referendum campaign trail this morning with
:04:59. > :05:01.the Prime Minister, warning that voting to leave the EU will lead
:05:02. > :05:04.to a rise in the cost of summer holidays, and the Ukip leader
:05:05. > :05:06.labelling the PM "Dishonest Dave" and accused him
:05:07. > :05:10.of "talking rubbish". Here's David Cameron, speaking
:05:11. > :05:14.to EasyJet employees in Luton. If we were to leave and the pound
:05:15. > :05:18.were to fall, which is what most people expect and what the Treasury
:05:19. > :05:21.forecasts, that would put up the cost of a typical holiday
:05:22. > :05:25.for a family of four to a European It could, as Carolyn has said,
:05:26. > :05:33.put up, actually, the cost of air travel because if you're out
:05:34. > :05:37.of the single market, which is what those who want us
:05:38. > :05:40.to leave think, then you would face all sorts of bureaucracy
:05:41. > :05:42.and restrictions that Let's talk now to Norman
:05:43. > :05:57.Smith, who is in Luton. You are in front of one of those
:05:58. > :06:02.easy jet aeroplanes, although not jetting off for a little while. We
:06:03. > :06:09.have now got the price of a holiday that will go up if Britain leaves
:06:10. > :06:13.the EU, have we reached the peak, do you think, of rhetoric on doom and
:06:14. > :06:21.gloom on both sides of what will happen if we stay or leave? I think
:06:22. > :06:26.what we get today is a tilt in the David Cameron campaign. Yesterday
:06:27. > :06:32.was a high watermark of Donna Rand Blitzen, sort of the dire warnings
:06:33. > :06:39.of disaster if we leave. Now I think the picture is more consumer land.
:06:40. > :06:43.David Cameron wants to bring it down to everyday costs to ordinary
:06:44. > :06:50.people's lives. Yesterday we had the deficit will go up to 39 billion,
:06:51. > :06:54.inflation will go up, we had a big economic numbers, which is fine and
:06:55. > :06:58.dandy. The Treasury have reduced their report with lots of equations,
:06:59. > :07:02.but in terms of getting traction with ordinary folk, it is easier to
:07:03. > :07:08.get your head round the fact that your holiday will cost 230 quid
:07:09. > :07:11.more. I think that is what increasingly you will see in this
:07:12. > :07:17.campaign. He will try to draw it back to those everyday costs. I
:07:18. > :07:21.think what we will see more of is trying to get nonpolitical people
:07:22. > :07:26.making the argument, standing by him. Today we have the boss of
:07:27. > :07:30.EasyJet saying really being in Europe makes our life a lot easier
:07:31. > :07:35.in terms of costs and I think we will see more of that. Third party
:07:36. > :07:40.figures being brought in to make the argument so it is not just the Dave
:07:41. > :07:44.and George show, which gets you so far, but if you really want to get
:07:45. > :07:48.traction it is better to go with third party figures. The figures you
:07:49. > :07:58.mentioned were contested by the other side. This idea of third party
:07:59. > :08:02.figures, I assume it will be restricting what we hear from
:08:03. > :08:10.government figures so it will lend itself to a change in the campaign.
:08:11. > :08:13.Yes, I wonder if even if they were allowed to produce another
:08:14. > :08:17.terrifying report whether it would actually have that much impact
:08:18. > :08:24.because I have this suspicion that we have may be reached doom fatigue.
:08:25. > :08:30.We are kind of in the land of come off it, it cannot be that bad
:08:31. > :08:37.surely. We have batted off warnings that we could face the third World
:08:38. > :08:42.War, your wages will go down by ?800, half of you will be out of
:08:43. > :08:45.work. We are so battered by this that we have reached the outer
:08:46. > :08:51.limits of that and there's not much more mileage in carrying on down
:08:52. > :08:54.that road. Even though you cannot now do that, I wonder if David
:08:55. > :09:01.Cameron would want to continue doing that. Interestingly, David Cameron
:09:02. > :09:07.was asked about that campaign and the negative nature of it, being
:09:08. > :09:11.criticised by even allies like Nicola Sturgeon, but he doesn't
:09:12. > :09:15.believe it is negative. He says he is just presenting the arguments in
:09:16. > :09:19.a clear and frank way, but for many on the receiving end it probably
:09:20. > :09:21.feels like that. Maybe they have been told it is working, by the
:09:22. > :09:23.pollsters. As I mentioned earlier,
:09:24. > :09:25.Nigel Farage is also out Here he is, speaking
:09:26. > :09:30.from his campaign bus in Dudley. I think one of the reasons that
:09:31. > :09:33.maybe the Remain campaign has taken a bit of a lead is not enough people
:09:34. > :09:37.on the Leave side are making It's all well and good to say
:09:38. > :09:42.we are going to have more money for the National Health Service,
:09:43. > :09:44.but actually this referendum Our politicians have given away
:09:45. > :09:48.control of our country. They have given away
:09:49. > :09:50.control of our borders. And our message has got to be clear,
:09:51. > :10:01.it's got to be assertive. We believe in Britain,
:10:02. > :10:03.we believe in this country, we believe in its people,
:10:04. > :10:09.and we want our country back. A little earlier I spoke to our
:10:10. > :10:22.correspondent Eleanor Garnier. I asked her how the campaign was
:10:23. > :10:30.going for Nigel Farage from where she was standing. This is a very
:10:31. > :10:37.glamorous bus, it is the first time I have been on it, there are benches
:10:38. > :10:41.and chairs. You can sit in the sunshine. When Nigel Farage arrived
:10:42. > :10:49.here in Dudley, he came with blaring music and he gave a big rousing
:10:50. > :10:53.speech from the top of the bus. I am going to pop down and I will meet
:10:54. > :11:00.you outside in a few seconds. There were loads of people waiting for
:11:01. > :11:05.Nigel Farage. Posters and things like that. There was a huge crowd
:11:06. > :11:10.waiting for him and I would say this campaign has been completely
:11:11. > :11:14.different from the one we saw from David Cameron which was controlled.
:11:15. > :11:22.Nigel Farage says anything goes, if you want to talk to him, to get that
:11:23. > :11:28.photo, get the selfie, get your poster signed. It does feel
:11:29. > :11:32.different because we had a barrage of graphs and economists from the
:11:33. > :11:36.Remain side but this has a different feel. Do you think it is about
:11:37. > :11:45.personality politics on the Leave side? I asked Nigel Farage about
:11:46. > :11:49.that, I said do you worry about not having big names supporting your
:11:50. > :11:53.side? He said it is about getting out and meeting people. He said he
:11:54. > :11:57.doesn't care who from the establishment backs of the other
:11:58. > :12:02.side. He said he actually wanted that, he wanted people in the big
:12:03. > :12:06.international companies to back the Remain side so it can be a
:12:07. > :12:11.competition between people on the ground, the real people, and the
:12:12. > :12:17.political establishment. How has the response been to that? The people
:12:18. > :12:22.there are those already convinced of the arguments put forward by Nigel
:12:23. > :12:25.Farage, but what about others? Before he turned up I asked a few
:12:26. > :12:31.people if they had decided how they will vote, and a few were really
:12:32. > :12:35.strongly committed to voting to leave the EU. They came out with
:12:36. > :12:39.their answer quickly, but there were also people who hadn't decided how
:12:40. > :12:44.they would vote, and there were some who said they would vote to stay in
:12:45. > :12:48.the EU. You can imagine that all the people around me now have been
:12:49. > :12:56.really prone leaving the EU, and on that issue of the holiday, whether
:12:57. > :13:00.prices for holidays for a family of four would go up by hundreds of
:13:01. > :13:05.pounds as David Cameron was saying, Nigel Farage slammed that and said
:13:06. > :13:09.it is simply not true. He said the person to blame was David Cameron
:13:10. > :13:13.for not reducing fees for airlines travelling around the world. He said
:13:14. > :13:17.it is a load of rubbish what David Cameron has been saying this
:13:18. > :13:21.morning. He has gone to the butchers around the corner, he has been to
:13:22. > :13:26.the market here too, meeting people and shaking hands. Guessing the
:13:27. > :13:29.flesh, I think we call it in this industry. I will let you go and take
:13:30. > :13:35.your place on the bus. Thank you. We've been joined by the cabinet
:13:36. > :13:37.minister and Leave supporter Theresa Villiers, and by the Remain
:13:38. > :13:48.supporter and member of the Labour Let's start with this holidays will
:13:49. > :13:54.become more expensive, another day of scaremongering and exaggeration
:13:55. > :14:00.by the Remain side. I don't think it is exaggeration, it is pointing out
:14:01. > :14:12.the implications of a leave vote. Mark Carney have said things, and he
:14:13. > :14:21.has taken that... Is it the back of a fag paper? There doesn't see many
:14:22. > :14:24.firm evidence. Mark Carney from the Bank of England was saying the
:14:25. > :14:28.consequence of leaving would be the pressure on the pound, the price of
:14:29. > :14:33.the pound would fall and that would have a huge impact on people's
:14:34. > :14:38.holidays. Foreign holidays become more expensive, and that is what the
:14:39. > :14:42.Prime Minister was out. There was an admission on someone on your side
:14:43. > :14:47.that there could be that short-term shock and that sort of consequence.
:14:48. > :14:51.We have even heard from Carolyn McCall from EasyJet who says she
:14:52. > :14:54.believes prices of holidays and flights will go up, and this could
:14:55. > :14:59.make a difference to people when they think about their summer
:15:00. > :15:02.holiday. I think I can provide reassurance because the last time
:15:03. > :15:09.the Treasury predicted an economic shock was when we were in the ERM,
:15:10. > :15:15.predicting disaster, and interest rates being hyped. What happened
:15:16. > :15:19.when we left the ERM, inflation came down, the economy had a huge boost
:15:20. > :15:23.and it was followed by nearly 15 years of economic growth. Before
:15:24. > :15:28.that happened, there was a huge hike in interest rates, but yesterday
:15:29. > :15:32.Gerard Lyons, one of the Economist on your side, admits there is likely
:15:33. > :15:38.to be that uncertainty and that could cause more expensive holidays
:15:39. > :15:40.but also other consumerist issues and people will say it is not worth
:15:41. > :15:49.taking the risk. It's important to recognise that
:15:50. > :15:53.whatever way the vote goes there are risks involved, but it is clear to
:15:54. > :15:58.me that the greater risks come with staying in the European Union. The
:15:59. > :16:02.European Union is inevitably going to ask for more power and money
:16:03. > :16:08.every year if we stay in. There is an in-built majority by the Eurozone
:16:09. > :16:13.that can out voters on everything. The EU is enlarging. In terms of the
:16:14. > :16:17.cost of living, it's clear that significant open-door migration from
:16:18. > :16:21.Europe does depress wages but particularly for people in lower
:16:22. > :16:26.skilled jobs, and that will intensify when it includes countries
:16:27. > :16:29.like Turkey. One of those issues, on depressing wages, there is evidence
:16:30. > :16:34.at the lower end of the scale that wages have been kept down. They had
:16:35. > :16:38.not risen for a very long time. We know that the UK is an attractive
:16:39. > :16:44.place for people to come and people have come here in large numbers, and
:16:45. > :16:47.by and large, as we've seen from independent analysis, they
:16:48. > :16:51.contribute to the local economy. They contribute, but do you accept
:16:52. > :16:54.wages have been suppressed as a result in part from migrants coming
:16:55. > :16:59.to the country and taking jobs at the low end of the scale and, as a
:17:00. > :17:02.result, the wages came down? They have often come in to do jobs where
:17:03. > :17:10.there are vacancies for them and they have contributed to them. There
:17:11. > :17:12.have been labour shortages and if you look at agriculture and in care
:17:13. > :17:16.homes, hospitals, the contribution of many of those migrants coming
:17:17. > :17:21.here to this country to work, they have contributed massively to local
:17:22. > :17:25.services and to the public exchange with the taxes they pay. Which
:17:26. > :17:30.arguments are going to play most effectively with the public? Will it
:17:31. > :17:34.be a consumerist argument about the money in their pocket, or will it be
:17:35. > :17:43.more about power and sovereignty? First of all, I'm for Remain, but on
:17:44. > :17:50.behalf of Leave, I think they have missed a trick. I think they have
:17:51. > :17:56.played on the playing field of Remain, where they cannot win.
:17:57. > :18:02.Remain has a lot of logic on its side. You have all of these big
:18:03. > :18:09.financiers, and world heads, saying don't do it. The argument that they
:18:10. > :18:13.bring out is logical. Leave's argument is about something much
:18:14. > :18:17.deeper. It is about a feeling of liberty, and I can say this is
:18:18. > :18:23.somebody American-born, and I'm rather giving this away, but I think
:18:24. > :18:27.Leave hasn't done that. All of the Leave people I know, when you talk
:18:28. > :18:31.to them in private, they are coming from a very emotional and deep place
:18:32. > :18:36.but you don't get that in the campaign. In other words you get a
:18:37. > :18:42.campaign where Remain is setting out something very logical and it will
:18:43. > :18:46.make sense to people, against what a lot of Leave people feel. What do
:18:47. > :18:49.you say to that? Conversely, you could say Boris Johnson and Nigel
:18:50. > :18:52.Farage are out there is big personalities with a lot of passion,
:18:53. > :18:56.but has it been lacking in the campaign generally? There is
:18:57. > :19:02.certainly passion in the campaign. Bonnie is right to the extent to
:19:03. > :19:08.which it has got over. The heart is, do we want to be an independent
:19:09. > :19:15.sovereign nation again? We did manage to run our own affairs well
:19:16. > :19:19.enough. Just take for example, the Jeremy Paxman programme, he said at
:19:20. > :19:22.the end of it after a very balanced programme he said British national
:19:23. > :19:26.sovereignty has been lost. The question for us is, has it been
:19:27. > :19:29.worth it? There is no question the European Union is a political
:19:30. > :19:34.project and we no longer have the power to make our own rules. We
:19:35. > :19:38.should take back control of making our own laws and our own immigration
:19:39. > :19:43.policies. The problem is this. If you make a campaign that says take
:19:44. > :19:48.control you have to convince people that they don't have control, and
:19:49. > :19:52.that is a very nebulous thing. But if you talk to people about not
:19:53. > :19:56.being able to take a holiday or your grandchildren, and the Daily
:19:57. > :19:59.Telegraph showed that people over 65 are going into Remain, and it's
:20:00. > :20:02.because a lot of them think they do not want to deprive their grandchild
:20:03. > :20:07.of the possibility of working in Berlin. You have to counter that
:20:08. > :20:12.kind of argument. I know that you can, but the campaign doesn't give
:20:13. > :20:18.that sense. What about on the Remain side, the rhetoric and this endless
:20:19. > :20:23.barrage of figures, and even Nicola Sturgeon who is in favour of Remain
:20:24. > :20:29.saying it is enough. Reading between the lines, it is too negative. It's
:20:30. > :20:33.important to lay out the risks and consequences and the consumerist
:20:34. > :20:36.argument and it is important, but alongside that I've heard the Prime
:20:37. > :20:39.Minister and leader of the Labour Party and many other figures talk
:20:40. > :20:44.about the fact that we are a proud, independent nation and I disagree
:20:45. > :20:48.totally with Therese on this. We are a proud, independent nation, and for
:20:49. > :20:53.many of us, and I hope for a majority, we see the future as being
:20:54. > :20:56.a proud, independent Pajot a country working with others to solve common
:20:57. > :20:59.problems and to what the common good and I think that's the difference in
:21:00. > :21:05.the view between us and we'll hear more of that vision of the foreword
:21:06. > :21:11.look -- towards the common good. Let's look at the polls, because
:21:12. > :21:15.Bonnie Greer raised the Telegraph poll and it shows that Remain has a
:21:16. > :21:20.20 point lead. We take them with a pinch of salt but it sounds like
:21:21. > :21:24.you're struggling. We've always been the underdog and its inevitable the
:21:25. > :21:29.establishment would line up against us. Certainly they have been talking
:21:30. > :21:32.the country down, no doubt about it. I think we should go back to what
:21:33. > :21:37.the Prime Minister said just a few months ago. He said I'm not one of
:21:38. > :21:40.these people who believes that the UK cannot be a success outside of
:21:41. > :21:44.the European Union. We can be a success and we will be a success. Do
:21:45. > :21:48.you feel betrayed by the Prime Minister? Did he make up his mind
:21:49. > :21:54.long before he officially announced he would campaign to remain? He has
:21:55. > :21:58.his view on this. It's difficult for me to be on the other side of a
:21:59. > :22:02.debate like this from a Prime Minister, but when it's a question
:22:03. > :22:07.of whether we become an independent democracy again, I felt I had to be
:22:08. > :22:12.on the side and I owed it to future generations to take back control and
:22:13. > :22:16.making our own laws and in our own Parliament. But that doesn't come
:22:17. > :22:20.through. That's my point. What a lot of people see is an anti-immigrant
:22:21. > :22:27.message, some of it quite crude. Although that plays well in some
:22:28. > :22:30.places. But some other places it doesn't play very well. I don't
:22:31. > :22:35.think that's what it's about but that is what comes across. In the
:22:36. > :22:39.next week, Leave will shift to do something else. I think the rebuttal
:22:40. > :22:43.of that is nonsense, that doesn't make sense, see what they were
:22:44. > :22:48.before 20 years ago, that isn't an answer to the economic argument and
:22:49. > :22:51.the economic case. When you have the head of the Bank of England and the
:22:52. > :22:58.IMF and most world leaders saying please don't do this, Leave has to
:22:59. > :23:01.come up with something that either visceral or come up with figures. It
:23:02. > :23:06.can't just say, that doesn't make any sense, we don't buy it. We still
:23:07. > :23:11.have plenty of time view to come up with that. On turnout, just briefly,
:23:12. > :23:15.one of the advantages I suggest for the Leave campaign is that they will
:23:16. > :23:21.get their people out. The turnout will be good on the Leave side. The
:23:22. > :23:28.Remain side, less certain. One of the things associated with that is
:23:29. > :23:32.that younger people are generally more enthusiastic for the EU are
:23:33. > :23:39.less likely to vote. You will see in the campaign going on that it will
:23:40. > :23:42.focus on turnout. Certainly the Labour Party across the country is
:23:43. > :23:49.now mobilising even more than it has been to try and make sure that we
:23:50. > :23:54.turnout our vote, to make sure we maximise the turnout. But the Labour
:23:55. > :23:56.Party is mobilised and working hard to get the vote out. Stay with us,
:23:57. > :23:57.both of you. Now, if you're a British citizen
:23:58. > :23:59.contemplating free movement across the European Union,
:24:00. > :24:01.your first thought But what about the one part
:24:02. > :24:07.of the UK where you can walk across the border
:24:08. > :24:09.into a foreign country? Northern Ireland's still-fragile
:24:10. > :24:10.political settlement and concerns about the implications
:24:11. > :24:13.of a vote to leave the EU for North-South co-operation
:24:14. > :24:15.on the island have lent an extra dimension to the referendum
:24:16. > :24:17.campaign there. We sent our Ellie along the Irish
:24:18. > :24:24.border to find out more. After a troubled history, a border
:24:25. > :24:37.that's practically invisible now. This is it, the frontier
:24:38. > :24:39.between the Republic of Ireland If a referendum resulted in a vote
:24:40. > :24:47.to leave, this could become part of the only land border
:24:48. > :24:55.between the UK and the EU. Those who want to leave the EU say
:24:56. > :24:59.a common travel agreement between Northern Ireland
:25:00. > :25:01.and the Irish Republic means that would change little,
:25:02. > :25:09.but others insist this border could once again harden
:25:10. > :25:11.after 23rd June. Migration is going to be
:25:12. > :25:13.a huge issue, in terms It's also raised a really
:25:14. > :25:17.interesting one for Northern Ireland because we get people talking
:25:18. > :25:19.about those that may If the UK were to leave,
:25:20. > :25:23.there'd be no possible change between the border
:25:24. > :25:25.between the Republic of Ireland People talk about the idea
:25:26. > :25:30.of the need to control borders to actually stop
:25:31. > :25:32.migration, migrants flowing. Well over 23,000 people cross
:25:33. > :25:37.the border from either side to get Many are going to or setting off
:25:38. > :25:41.from the city of Newry, which sits four miles from
:25:42. > :25:45.the border of the Irish Republic. You can use both pounds
:25:46. > :25:47.and euros here. But some businesses say that cosy
:25:48. > :25:49.working relationship The big liberating factor for us has
:25:50. > :25:55.been freedom of movement of goods and people,
:25:56. > :25:58.and our concern is the reinstitution And while some have said this
:25:59. > :26:12.would be electronic, it still will involve paperwork
:26:13. > :26:14.at some point, and that's Newry lies in the south
:26:15. > :26:20.of County Armagh, an area known during the Troubles as bandit
:26:21. > :26:23.country for its paramilitary There's concern now that a physical
:26:24. > :26:27.border would not only damage the local economy,
:26:28. > :26:30.but serve, at the very least, as an uncomfortable reminder
:26:31. > :26:34.of the area's divided past. This vote is potentially more
:26:35. > :26:37.important for us than the vote The importance to the peace process
:26:38. > :26:44.of British and Irish EU What's not is the fact
:26:45. > :26:49.that the EU has pumped more than 1.5 billion euros
:26:50. > :26:53.into cross-community reconciliation. The Peace Bridge in Londonderry
:26:54. > :26:58.just one such project. But the largest political parties
:26:59. > :27:01.on each side of the community divide have very different views
:27:02. > :27:05.on what leaving would mean. There would be an adverse impact
:27:06. > :27:09.for north-south relations. We would see a loss to the growing
:27:10. > :27:12.levels of North-South economic It would result in a hardening
:27:13. > :27:16.of partition of that, If the north of Ireland votes
:27:17. > :27:21.to remain in the EU and sections of English popular opinion vote
:27:22. > :27:25.to come out, then we, like the Scots, should be
:27:26. > :27:27.given an opportunity This nonsense that somehow
:27:28. > :27:35.the world is going to end, there will be no trade,
:27:36. > :27:39.no money for farming, there will be border controls
:27:40. > :27:42.with no doubt machine-gun posts at the border and all of that
:27:43. > :27:44.nonsense, is scaremongering and it Remember, a lot of these people said
:27:45. > :27:48.exactly the same thing when we were told we wouldn't be
:27:49. > :27:51.part of the euro. We were told this would be
:27:52. > :27:56.disastrous for trade and for co-operation
:27:57. > :27:59.between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic,
:28:00. > :28:00.and for trade between the Irish Republic and the rest
:28:01. > :28:03.of the United Kingdom. Here at Carlingford Lough,
:28:04. > :28:07.the town of Warrenpoint in Northern Ireland is separated
:28:08. > :28:09.from Carlingford in the Republic No one knows what the political
:28:10. > :28:15.landscape would look like if we vote to leave the EU,
:28:16. > :28:19.but for at least one part of the UK, the consequences could be felt
:28:20. > :28:25.a lot closer to home. And the Northern Ireland Secretary
:28:26. > :28:29.Theresa Villiers and the shadow Northern Ireland Secretary Vernon
:28:30. > :28:41.Coaker are still with me. If the UK votes to leave the EU, it
:28:42. > :28:44.is one land border with the EU, and that would be with the Republic of
:28:45. > :28:49.Ireland. Can you guarantee nothing would change along the border when
:28:50. > :28:52.it comes to controls and checks and freedom of travel? I can guarantee
:28:53. > :28:56.we still have an open border and it would be as free for goods and
:28:57. > :28:59.people as it is now. The Common travel area, which enables Irish
:29:00. > :29:05.citizens and UK citizens to pass freely... Is that in legislation?
:29:06. > :29:10.Yes, it is. It survived the Civil War and war and it survived 30 years
:29:11. > :29:18.of the troubles. And it will survive a vote in Brexit and to suggest it
:29:19. > :29:25.wouldn't is scaremongering. So she is saying it would stay the same
:29:26. > :29:29.completely? It existed when Ireland and the UK were not members of the
:29:30. > :29:34.EU, and it existed while they were, but what it has never been, the
:29:35. > :29:37.Common travel area, is when Britain and Ireland on different
:29:38. > :29:42.arrangements. You would have Ireland in the EU and the whole of the U --
:29:43. > :29:47.UK not in the EU. Why couldn't you still have the freedom of movement?
:29:48. > :29:51.Let's say that freedom of movement becomes not just between Ireland and
:29:52. > :29:59.the UK, a big queen -- becomes between the whole of the EU and the
:30:00. > :30:04.UK. So people from Italy, Spain, Poland, wherever, Romania, they fly
:30:05. > :30:08.into Dublin, and then they just walk straight across the border and they
:30:09. > :30:11.have entry into the rest of the UK. Part of the Leave campaign is we do
:30:12. > :30:16.not want freedom of movement of people. There is an illogicality to
:30:17. > :30:21.it that raises questions about what happens. What do you say to that
:30:22. > :30:25.point? We would be relying on Irish customs and immigration to monitor
:30:26. > :30:29.migrants from the EU, and you want to control migration, and they would
:30:30. > :30:30.have the potential to enter the UK undetected, if you say the borders
:30:31. > :30:39.are open. They would certainly be risks to be
:30:40. > :30:46.managed but we already face them now. Where do we face them now at
:30:47. > :30:49.the moment because on the French side we have officials working on
:30:50. > :30:55.their side and our own immigration officials so the risks would be
:30:56. > :31:00.high, wouldn't they? Effectively our external border is also the Republic
:31:01. > :31:04.of Ireland's border so we already depend on the authorities in the
:31:05. > :31:10.Republic of Ireland to play part of the role in policing our borders. I
:31:11. > :31:15.think the idea of thousands of French, German EU citizens wanting
:31:16. > :31:18.to come to the UK across the Irish border is fanciful. The reason why
:31:19. > :31:23.there are significant population movements at the moment is because
:31:24. > :31:28.of free movement rules. If we were to amend them, we wouldn't see the
:31:29. > :31:33.mass population flows we do now. And that would be logical if you were
:31:34. > :31:37.voting to leave, you would take the rules to that point which you could
:31:38. > :31:44.stop people coming across in the way you envisage. All I'm saying is the
:31:45. > :31:51.border becomes not a border within the EU, it becomes a border... I
:31:52. > :32:01.understand. Clearly that will have to be managed. Theresa has said
:32:02. > :32:11.there has to be risks that will be managed. Isn't it a bigger risk to
:32:12. > :32:17.have Turkey joining the EU? It will have a significant impact. The
:32:18. > :32:26.government is committed to looking at the issue and re-energising the
:32:27. > :32:31.talks of Turkish accession. It is always an issue that is raised.
:32:32. > :32:36.Turkey will not join the EU within the foreseeable future. It is a red
:32:37. > :32:41.herring you throw on the table. It is our responsibility think not just
:32:42. > :32:47.about the EU today but what it will be like in ten years, 20 years. We
:32:48. > :32:50.have the responsibility to think to the long-term. Just because it might
:32:51. > :32:55.not happen for a few years, it doesn't mean it is not a problem.
:32:56. > :33:00.This is the one chance people in the UK have is to leave the EU.
:33:01. > :33:04.Otherwise we are stuck in this organisation probably for decades to
:33:05. > :33:07.come and we will face those risks when Turkey joins.
:33:08. > :33:09.Does Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party have a problem with Englishness?
:33:10. > :33:12.It's a question posed by former Shadow Cabinet minister
:33:13. > :33:14.Tristram Hunt in a new collection of essays penned by Labour MPs
:33:15. > :33:17.and less successful candidates from the last General Election
:33:18. > :33:20.and some of the comments might come as a shock to its
:33:21. > :33:34.The debate about Labour and Englishness was partly inspired
:33:35. > :33:44.by this photo, tweeted by the now Shadow Defence
:33:45. > :33:47.by this photo, tweeted by the now Shadow Defence Secretary Emily
:33:48. > :33:49.Thornberry during the Rochester by-election, which was
:33:50. > :34:40.And Tristram Hunt has joined us in the studio. Labour is in much bigger
:34:41. > :34:44.trouble electorally in Wales and Scotland. Yes, it is almost as if we
:34:45. > :34:49.had three different general election is happening on the same day in
:34:50. > :34:52.England, Scotland and Wales, and we face a big, historic challenge in
:34:53. > :34:56.Scotland, but what we are also seeing, and this was the nature of
:34:57. > :35:03.the collection of essays I brought together with fears over a cultural
:35:04. > :35:08.disconnect with Englishness. The reason this is important is because
:35:09. > :35:11.more people are identifying themselves as English than British,
:35:12. > :35:16.and if we don't feel we are on the same side as them in terms of their
:35:17. > :35:27.identity and values, the Labour Party will not be voted for. You say
:35:28. > :35:36.nursing this is essential, what does it mean? It means pride in English
:35:37. > :35:41.history, it is about making sure we have a big, bold devolution package.
:35:42. > :35:46.We have this mismatch in power, many people in England feel, between the
:35:47. > :35:50.devolution settlement in Scotland and Wales, and the Labour Party in
:35:51. > :35:55.particular is a much more British party isn't often seen enough as on
:35:56. > :36:00.the side of those who have very strong feelings about their Ingush
:36:01. > :36:05.identity. Is he right, in terms of the diagnosis of the problem for the
:36:06. > :36:12.Labour Party and do you back this idea? As someone who is married to
:36:13. > :36:18.an Englishman and has lived here half my life, I understand what you
:36:19. > :36:24.mean and I can maybe talk about what Englishness is, but what we have to
:36:25. > :36:29.be careful about is this concept of England becomes changed in every
:36:30. > :36:35.generation. It is in fact on some levels invented. The feeling of
:36:36. > :36:40.Englishness in some ways, and I'm just saying this as someone watching
:36:41. > :36:45.it and living with an Englishman, becomes a reaction as opposed to a
:36:46. > :36:51.fact. If the Labour Party... And I take your point, if the Labour Party
:36:52. > :36:59.is going to appeal to England it has to define what England is. The
:37:00. > :37:04.notion of the flag of St George has not been a positive symbol of
:37:05. > :37:09.England for the last 30 years. Was that an mistake by Emily Thornberry,
:37:10. > :37:16.seeming to mark what is seen as the representative of England? She used
:37:17. > :37:24.sub textual feeling about that flag. She made a grave mistake and it was
:37:25. > :37:30.an insult as well, but the Labour Party can talk about what England
:37:31. > :37:40.is. Suzy stride says one person opened the door and said, I am a
:37:41. > :37:42.white, working-class heterosexual English person on benefit, the
:37:43. > :37:50.Labour Party is not for people like me. Have they given up on these
:37:51. > :37:56.people in favour of something else? It is devastating if people think
:37:57. > :38:00.that. If our reputation is such that mainstream white English voters feel
:38:01. > :38:03.that the Labour Party isn't for them, then building the kind of
:38:04. > :38:07.progressive coalition that we want to build is immediately crippled.
:38:08. > :38:12.Bonnie is right about this question of English identity. There is an
:38:13. > :38:18.interesting historical debate about the nature of Englishness, and
:38:19. > :38:25.whether there was a codified sense of Englishness more than British
:38:26. > :38:33.nurse. As we see Britishness ebbing, does this Englishness ideal come
:38:34. > :38:37.back? For the man in Harlow, if he feels the Labour Party is not on the
:38:38. > :38:42.side of English people, and this is what was so problematic about the
:38:43. > :38:45.2015 election, because we have this type team between Nicola Sturgeon
:38:46. > :38:50.and David Cameron, Nicola Sturgeon saying the Labour Party isn't on the
:38:51. > :38:59.side of the Scottish and David Cameron saying it isn't on the side
:39:00. > :39:04.of the English. It is not about England, it is about the definition
:39:05. > :39:07.of England. England is everyone who is English so therefore the Labour
:39:08. > :39:13.Party has to embrace this multifarious idea of England as
:39:14. > :39:18.opposed to it being... Right, and there was this lovely new book on
:39:19. > :39:23.Islamist culture within England in the 16th century, and how these
:39:24. > :39:28.ideas within England develop. If we are not on the pitch, Bonnie, if we
:39:29. > :39:33.are not negotiating and contesting and having pride in this, then you
:39:34. > :39:37.end up with the politics we have seen in Austria. You end up with far
:39:38. > :39:42.right politics, you don't have a progressive account of battery and
:39:43. > :39:53.England, and to show that we love England then the right taker. Do you
:39:54. > :39:58.think there is a two tea Labour Party, the London elite and the rest
:39:59. > :40:02.of the country? I think this trend has been going. The book was about
:40:03. > :40:06.the 2015 election but in local elections we saw Labour doing well
:40:07. > :40:14.in London, Sadiq Khan brilliant, doing well in Norwich and Bristol,
:40:15. > :40:19.but in Nuneaton, Tamworth, Middle England, the marginal seats, in
:40:20. > :40:21.communities who are feeling under pressure by pressure and
:40:22. > :40:27.globalisation and socioeconomic change... Labour did gain some seats
:40:28. > :40:35.in England in those local elections we just had. We lost 20. I take your
:40:36. > :40:47.point, but it did gain some seat. Normally opposition seats gained
:40:48. > :40:50.130. We gained in areas where there is a more confident, Metropolitan
:40:51. > :40:56.identity and we are under pressure in areas where white working-class
:40:57. > :40:58.voters, in areas like Portsmouth and Southampton, feel that the Labour
:40:59. > :41:05.Party is not speaking to their values. Does Jeremy Corbyn get this?
:41:06. > :41:15.I don't know if Jeremy Corbyn get this. Do you not up to him about it?
:41:16. > :41:18.I have sent the book to him. One theory is that Jeremy Corbyn's
:41:19. > :41:24.approach to the defence industry doubles down on this idea of
:41:25. > :41:29.Englishness and the white working class communities. We were hurt in
:41:30. > :41:35.Portsmouth to the Labour Party's approach to these vital industries.
:41:36. > :41:40.But Labour must not react to an idea of England. England is a big idea,
:41:41. > :41:45.and I think Labour should embrace the big idea of England which is
:41:46. > :41:51.multicultural. Look at Shakespeare. That tells you what London was in
:41:52. > :41:54.the 16th century. And the Tempest is a story as much about the West
:41:55. > :41:59.Indies and the Caribbean as it is about England. England is a big
:42:00. > :42:03.idea. Thank you very much. Our famous love of dogs seems
:42:04. > :42:05.to be having unintended Footage from the BBC's Panorama
:42:06. > :42:08.programme shows cages in Ireland filled with hundreds
:42:09. > :42:11.of sickly dogs, ready to be As the law stands, if someone owns
:42:12. > :42:16.a council pet shop licence they're OK to source
:42:17. > :42:17.dogs from elsewhere. Campaigners say enough
:42:18. > :42:20.is enough and they want Today, celebrities,
:42:21. > :42:22.MPs and charities are gathering outside the Houses
:42:23. > :42:25.of Parliament calling for the Government to ban the sale
:42:26. > :42:39.of puppies in pet shops I am with the vet Mark Abraham, and
:42:40. > :42:45.Jody Marshall who needs no introduction, but you owned six
:42:46. > :42:49.dogs. What is your reaction to this trade, is it visceral cruelty?
:42:50. > :42:55.Definitely cruel in so many ways. Not only are the dogs very sick,
:42:56. > :42:59.unhealthy and mistreated, kept in tiny boxes and used literally just
:43:00. > :43:04.for breeding over and over again, but it is cruel on the owner because
:43:05. > :43:10.when you go to buy a puppy from a puppy farm, you will end up spending
:43:11. > :43:16.thousands on vet bills because the dog is so sick. Many people will say
:43:17. > :43:20.it is cruel but it is regulated and inspected by local authorities. Many
:43:21. > :43:25.of these people say I am not breaking the law. Absolutely, and
:43:26. > :43:29.that is why we need the government to answer for themselves. Why is
:43:30. > :43:37.this legal? Why is it allowed to happen? Mark will tell you, it is
:43:38. > :43:45.absolute, just... You have asked the question for me and I will get him
:43:46. > :43:50.to answer. Why is it legal? A law regulates this, are you calling for
:43:51. > :43:57.it to be banned? We want the government to follow its own advice.
:43:58. > :44:02.It quite clearly says on the website that puppies should be seen with
:44:03. > :44:06.their mother. Why are they then allowing them to be sold without
:44:07. > :44:21.their mother. The public need to choose responsibly. How can they?
:44:22. > :44:25.Lucy is getting in on the action. A lot of this is emotional. You are
:44:26. > :44:31.saying is a vet you know she was damaged. You don't need to be a vet
:44:32. > :44:37.to see how damaged she was. Lucy was a rescue Cavalier, battery farmed.
:44:38. > :44:43.Puppies were sold by licensed dealers... She is over breeding? She
:44:44. > :44:48.has so many health issues. Luckily she has been rehabilitated, she is
:44:49. > :44:52.still scared, still has separation anxiety, but the whole puppy farm
:44:53. > :44:57.industry relies on the third-party trade and a lack of transparency.
:44:58. > :45:06.Very quickly, do you think this has even been on the government's radar?
:45:07. > :45:11.In 2014 we had a debate in the main chamber for the banning on the sale
:45:12. > :45:15.of puppies without their mothers, eliminate third-party sales. It was
:45:16. > :45:19.a backbench victory, but the government front bench said no,
:45:20. > :45:23.let's keep things as they are. It is not OK, we need to change things
:45:24. > :45:29.immediately so people can either buy directly from the breeder or
:45:30. > :45:35.preferably go to a rescue centre. Are you getting a big response about
:45:36. > :45:56.this? Everyone feels the same. If we all suddenly started
:45:57. > :45:59.eating dog meat in this country there would be uproar. Everyone
:46:00. > :46:02.would go crazy. What is happening with these dogs in puppy farms is
:46:03. > :46:03.probably worse because they are being kept alive to have a horrible
:46:04. > :46:08.life. Yes, I think the dog wanted to be
:46:09. > :46:10.elsewhere. Driverless cars, spaceports -
:46:11. > :46:12.last week's Queen's Speech had all the makings
:46:13. > :46:15.of a science fiction novel. But this seemed to be a snapshot
:46:16. > :46:17.of Britain's future in modern technology and artificial
:46:18. > :46:19.intelligence, and one that MPs So much so the Commons Science
:46:20. > :46:24.Technology committee is now conducting an inquiry into the UK
:46:25. > :46:26.robotics industry to consider the social, legal and ethical issues
:46:27. > :46:32.raised by developments in the field. Let's have a look at they kind
:46:33. > :46:43.of thing they're talking about. What you can see here is footage
:46:44. > :46:48.from Boston Dynamics in the States. It's a robotics firm
:46:49. > :46:51.owned by Google. It created a humanoid
:46:52. > :46:55.that is able operate outdoors It uses sensors to avoid obstacles,
:46:56. > :47:02.assess the terrain, help with navigation
:47:03. > :47:06.and manipulate objects. It can also withstand bullying
:47:07. > :47:12.and still achieve its task. With me now is Dr Rob Buckingham,
:47:13. > :47:15.director of RACE - which stands for Remote Applications
:47:16. > :47:17.in Challenging Environments - set up He's giving evidence
:47:18. > :47:30.to the Select Committee Welcome to the Daily Politics. It
:47:31. > :47:35.looks exciting, but there are ethical issues here at the core.
:47:36. > :47:40.Yes, of course. This is something which is going to hit us over the
:47:41. > :47:43.next ten, 2050 years. Computers are getting more and more powerful and
:47:44. > :47:48.robotics is just a part of the trend. We have to be really aware of
:47:49. > :47:54.these issues and give it the attention it deserves. What does it
:47:55. > :47:59.mean? Should we be scared? No, I don't think we should be scared.
:48:00. > :48:06.When we wrote the strategy a couple of years ago we said that these are
:48:07. > :48:11.just the next generation of smart tools, tools that help people, that
:48:12. > :48:14.create jobs, create wealth, solve problems and we shouldn't really be
:48:15. > :48:21.focusing too much on the existential stuff. It is great science-fiction.
:48:22. > :48:26.But is it just science-fiction? You talk about artificial intelligence
:48:27. > :48:30.and you look at the robot, and you think what about if they start to be
:48:31. > :48:35.able to play computer games and they don't need direction from humans.
:48:36. > :48:40.Eventually, in a hundred years, they can talk to each other, but I love
:48:41. > :48:45.the idea of robots. I love them, I think they are fantastic and I think
:48:46. > :48:57.what they will do is free up human beings from drudgery. They will also
:48:58. > :49:02.allow for every human displaced by a robot there should be a programme by
:49:03. > :49:06.which every human is retrained for a job of the future. In fact, the
:49:07. > :49:12.robot can teach the human that job. That is what is so exciting about
:49:13. > :49:17.this. We can learn from robots a lot about our bodies, our minds. They
:49:18. > :49:22.will go in and take care of jobs we can't do, clearing mines. Except the
:49:23. > :49:26.key in your little speech there about robots was actually about the
:49:27. > :49:29.fact that people need to be retrained, and would people be
:49:30. > :49:34.retrained? If people are worried their jobs are being taken and there
:49:35. > :49:39.isn't anything there to do customer that is a constant process. Society
:49:40. > :49:45.does not stand still. So absolutely Ahki message to the politicians and
:49:46. > :49:49.educators is, get with it. -- a key message. Get to grips with science,
:49:50. > :49:53.technology, engineering and maths. We have to have those skills if we
:49:54. > :49:57.are going to be an economy that makes money, generate jobs, all that
:49:58. > :50:01.stuff, we have to be in that area. Robotics is a key part of that. Do
:50:02. > :50:07.you agree with Bonnie that it will be 150 years? It doesn't matter
:50:08. > :50:12.about the time. It will happen, and then the key thing is, what we do
:50:13. > :50:17.now? How do we prepare for that in a calm, calculator, open, transparent
:50:18. > :50:22.way? What the government be doing instead of opening free schools and
:50:23. > :50:28.academies is that it needs to set up programmes in schools in which
:50:29. > :50:32.people are taught STEM. It is the most important thing a young person
:50:33. > :50:36.can do. Women need to get more involved in STEM. Forget about
:50:37. > :50:38.robots, these things will happen. We need to get smarter. Instead of
:50:39. > :50:45.rushing around trying to control people we need to get a unified
:50:46. > :50:51.school system that teaches people STEM. It has to come from the top.
:50:52. > :50:56.When do you think this will happen? A change is visual for everybody.
:50:57. > :51:01.Autonomous people is the most visual thing. Driverless cars for example.
:51:02. > :51:05.It is in our space. The Internet we don't think of being in our space,
:51:06. > :51:10.it is in the digital space, somewhere else. Whereas robotics is
:51:11. > :51:15.physical and comes into our space, our home, our heart -- driveways.
:51:16. > :51:21.That is why it is important to the UK. We are leading in this area. Is
:51:22. > :51:25.the UK leading? We are doing stuff here that is not being done
:51:26. > :51:29.elsewhere. And it's a valuable export commodity. If we can take the
:51:30. > :51:36.lead, get our schools on board and stop all silliness, getting to STEM.
:51:37. > :51:39.We have the first language in the world and we could be the export
:51:40. > :51:45.leaders in this. The pictures we were showing their, the robot being
:51:46. > :51:48.kicked over, is that the sort of thing you are developing? Is it a
:51:49. > :51:55.publicity stunt? It is an awesome video. And it just raises huge
:51:56. > :52:02.questions. It makes you smile. Why is that? We are human beings and
:52:03. > :52:06.when we start thinking about humanity and humanoids we think,
:52:07. > :52:11.wow, it's exciting. Immediately we think, is that robot in pain? I
:52:12. > :52:17.would put money on the fact that someone cared in some estate is
:52:18. > :52:21.sitting there, seen that, thinking I know what to do here. That kid needs
:52:22. > :52:26.to be released into a school system that allows him or her to get into
:52:27. > :52:31.STEM and that is the world of the future. How radical does the
:52:32. > :52:38.education system need to change in order to make way for this? I'll
:52:39. > :52:42.give you a very specific example. We just got given ?50 million to set up
:52:43. > :52:47.an apprentice training school, which is really good. A apprentices. We
:52:48. > :52:53.want to take all of those apprentices through my centre -- all
:52:54. > :52:57.apprentices. That is a way to embed that stuff into training. From
:52:58. > :53:01.16-year-olds all the way through, those guys and girls going through
:53:02. > :53:08.that process are hands-on, playing with software and electronics. They
:53:09. > :53:15.should be receptive to it. They love it. Culture and art in there and you
:53:16. > :53:16.have a perfect human being. You should go and work for him, Bonnie.
:53:17. > :53:20.You would be welcome. Thanks. Jeremy Corbyn has given
:53:21. > :53:22.lots of talks at universities and other venues around the country
:53:23. > :53:25.since becoming the Leader They've all been pretty exciting,
:53:26. > :53:28.like this one, for example, Give a big East Midlands welcome
:53:29. > :53:31.to the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn at De Montfort
:53:32. > :54:03.University in Leicester last year. Now, students and Labour activists
:54:04. > :54:05.at Lancaster University thought they were in for a similar event
:54:06. > :54:08.a talk by Jeremy Corbyn But, when they got there,
:54:09. > :54:12.they were confronted not by the Leader of the Opposition
:54:13. > :54:17.but by a cardboard box. It was all part of an undergraduate
:54:18. > :54:21.fine art project. And the student behind it,
:54:22. > :54:25.Lucie Carter, is here to tell us more and the Culture
:54:26. > :54:39.Minister, Ed Vaizey. First of all, what we doing? I've
:54:40. > :54:45.been developing my work for a while in the studio and this is the final
:54:46. > :54:53.budget that I came up with. Can we have a look at it? There it is. And
:54:54. > :54:57.the idea behind it was what exactly? It's a combination of two series
:54:58. > :55:05.that I have looked at. One of them is looking at the play element in
:55:06. > :55:12.culture, it's a book and I can't remember the name of the author. And
:55:13. > :55:18.it's combination of object orientated ontology as well. What is
:55:19. > :55:27.object-oriented ontology? Try and think of the simplest way. Please
:55:28. > :55:33.do. What is it there? It is not only about the piece itself, it is about
:55:34. > :55:43.you. So those who and the call they did the piece, and that was the call
:55:44. > :55:49.and I think it's very exciting. Way surprised it took off, and 500
:55:50. > :55:53.people were due to attend, so were you surprised by the response?
:55:54. > :55:59.Absolutely. I didn't think it would be as big as it became, so I was
:56:00. > :56:06.shocked. That you got into trouble? Not necessarily. We handled things
:56:07. > :56:13.internally in the union. What about the local MP? How did she respond?
:56:14. > :56:18.She called me on the day I made the event and she asked me to delete the
:56:19. > :56:26.event which I thought, fair enough. So I did. Did you? Do you think she
:56:27. > :56:30.should have done? She may have taken it as a piece of hostility towards
:56:31. > :56:33.Jeremy Corbyn but you could turn it round the other way and say even a
:56:34. > :56:38.box with the name Jeremy Corbyn can potentially attract 500 people to
:56:39. > :56:45.come and view it. Could you attract 500 people in person? I don't think
:56:46. > :56:55.I could. I don't want to in any way diminish your artwork, but this is
:56:56. > :56:59.the STEM box, and we thought we would do one to you. What I want to
:57:00. > :57:07.know now is what is happening to the viewing figures? -- the Ed Vaizey
:57:08. > :57:14.box. The font is wrong. What should it be? That is the font. What is
:57:15. > :57:19.wrong with it? The font is also the art as well. It's not a scribble
:57:20. > :57:28.leafing. I think you'll find we spent a very long time this. Not
:57:29. > :57:33.really. Famously Roy Hattersley was replaced with a tub of lard on have
:57:34. > :57:38.I got News for you. So I think the BBC led the way for you to open the
:57:39. > :57:46.pathway for this piece of art. Are you open-minded to this sort of
:57:47. > :57:49.thing? This is the centenary of Dadaism and are looking at the world
:57:50. > :57:57.and mocking the world in some ways, and next year will be the centenary
:57:58. > :58:05.of the Fountain piece by Duchamp, and he said because it was art he
:58:06. > :58:09.said it was art. It is art and it is art for all the reasons that you
:58:10. > :58:15.said it is art. The people who don't get it, that is art as well. The MP
:58:16. > :58:19.who decided to get on your case is part of the art piece as well. What
:58:20. > :58:25.are you going to do next? I actually don't know. When you do, can you
:58:26. > :58:30.come on and bring it, and bring Ed Vaizey as well. Very quickly you can
:58:31. > :58:37.help Bonnie Greer with the answer to the quiz. I don't think we've got
:58:38. > :58:39.time to do the quiz. I will have to say thank you to all of our guests
:58:40. > :58:40.to day. Thanks to Bonnie Greer
:58:41. > :58:44.and all my guests. I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow
:58:45. > :58:47.with Andrew for live coverage The One O'clock News is starting
:58:48. > :58:52.over on BBC One now.