:00:36. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:41.David Cameron and Michael Gove trade blows - again -
:00:42. > :00:46.with competing claims over the cost of leaving the EU,
:00:47. > :00:54.What are the Labour arguments for leaving or remaining?
:00:55. > :00:58.Gisela Stuart goes head to head with Chuka Umunna.
:00:59. > :01:02.A new artwork is unveiled in parliament celebrating
:01:03. > :01:04.A new artwork is unveiled in Parliament celebrating
:01:05. > :01:06.the Suffragettes' struggle for votes for women.
:01:07. > :01:10.And Giles rolls up his sleeves and takes the strain
:01:11. > :01:21.as he joins the annual Lords versus MPs tug-of-war competition.
:01:22. > :01:26.and with us for the whole of the programme today,
:01:27. > :01:28.the former shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna.
:01:29. > :01:37.So, another busy morning on the EU referendum campaign trail.
:01:38. > :01:40.David Cameron has just been making a speech where he,
:01:41. > :01:42.once again, focused on latest warnings on leaving the EU.
:01:43. > :01:45.speaking about the "economic reality check"
:01:46. > :01:48.from the World Trade Organisation this morning.
:01:49. > :01:53.Instability, jobs and investments lost.
:01:54. > :01:54.Instability, jobs and investment lost.
:01:55. > :02:03.That is the very clear message from today and this is an
:02:04. > :02:05.economic reality check for our country.
:02:06. > :02:07.And it doesn't come from people with an axe to grind,
:02:08. > :02:14.but from credible, independent experts.
:02:15. > :02:18.People who either have real skin in the game in terms of jobs
:02:19. > :02:20.or investment, or whose job it is to warn about risks
:02:21. > :02:22.to the world economy or global trade.
:02:23. > :02:27.The Prime Minister's warnings followed a letter
:02:28. > :02:29.from Vote Leave campaigners Michael Gove and Boris Johnson,
:02:30. > :02:30.who argued that the UK could deport
:02:31. > :02:32.more EU criminals back to the continent
:02:33. > :02:39.They highlighted 50 cases in which, they say, the EU and European Courts
:02:40. > :02:46.Here's the Justice Secretary speaking in an interview earlier.
:02:47. > :02:49.We're certainly not trying to scare anyone, we're absolutely
:02:50. > :02:52.emphasising the importance of taking back control.
:02:53. > :02:56.If we leave the European Union, then we can have a greater degree
:02:57. > :03:02.of security and safety in this country and we can ensure
:03:03. > :03:05.that the laws we enforce and the way in which we treat criminals
:03:06. > :03:08.are what I believe the British people would like to see.
:03:09. > :03:11.I am sure that the British people would want to ensure that if someone
:03:12. > :03:14.who has committed a crime and is a foreign national has
:03:15. > :03:16.completed their sentence, that we can deport them,
:03:17. > :03:19.rather than have them remain here, act as a cost to the taxpayer
:03:20. > :03:21.and as a potential further danger to fellow citizens.
:03:22. > :03:23.We've been joined by the Conservative MEP
:03:24. > :03:28.and Leave campaigner, Dan Hannan.
:03:29. > :03:35.Welcome to the Daily Politics. If we left the EU, we would be able to
:03:36. > :03:38.more easily deport EU criminals. I think that is rubbish, we have the
:03:39. > :03:42.benefit of the European arrest warrant, which over the last six or
:03:43. > :03:47.seven years has enabled us to deport and remove other 6,500 criminals
:03:48. > :03:51.back to their countries of origin. We have actually been able to bring
:03:52. > :03:55.people back here to face justice under the European arrest warrant,
:03:56. > :04:00.including one of the people who attempted to add to the bombing that
:04:01. > :04:04.we saw in 2005 and that is before you look at the prisoner exchange
:04:05. > :04:08.agreements we have got and the criminal exchange system. What about
:04:09. > :04:13.the 50 cases cited by the Leave Campaign, where European Court
:04:14. > :04:17.blocked the extradition of those criminals to their respective EU
:04:18. > :04:23.countries? Well, if you look at the broad swathe of the figures, they
:04:24. > :04:27.have cited a number, we have cited 130 times that number. No one has
:04:28. > :04:32.said the system is perfect, I have never argued that the EU is perfect,
:04:33. > :04:35.but who argue that if we came out it would make it easier to remove these
:04:36. > :04:38.criminals is completely untrue, not least because of course you would
:04:39. > :04:44.have to negotiate new arrangements with each of the remaining 27 member
:04:45. > :04:48.states. The director of Euro poll has said there are likely to be at
:04:49. > :04:54.least the same number of British criminals abroad as foreign crumbles
:04:55. > :04:58.in the UK, so we would have to welcome back our criminals, how does
:04:59. > :05:03.that make us safer? We know who they are and we would be able to deal
:05:04. > :05:08.with them. That doesn't make us any safer. There has always been a
:05:09. > :05:11.international system for cooperating like this, the International
:05:12. > :05:15.convention, the Hague Convention, time spent in another country as
:05:16. > :05:20.part of your sentence and all of it predates the EU and will carry on.
:05:21. > :05:23.But we say that handing people Makabu its power to the same people
:05:24. > :05:28.that brought us the Schengen area and so on -- are we safe are handing
:05:29. > :05:34.over the power to these same people. They may have interest in power at
:05:35. > :05:38.heart and in case of the 50 cases cited today, they are an cases of
:05:39. > :05:42.people who have been convicted and at the expiry of their sentence
:05:43. > :05:46.cannot be removed from this country. But you do accept we would have to
:05:47. > :05:51.welcome back UK criminals who have committed crimes abroad in the EU? I
:05:52. > :05:54.would have thought it people have committed crimes are not being
:05:55. > :06:06.deported, of course it is a two-way thing but people would regard it as
:06:07. > :06:11.a sensible system. How many of the criminals released today currently
:06:12. > :06:15.pose a threat to UK citizens? Usually, the deportation begins at
:06:16. > :06:21.the expiry of a sentence, so one assumes the majority have been
:06:22. > :06:28.released. So you don't know? I don't know how many have Bindaree
:06:29. > :06:32.arrested... How many currently pose a threat? That is what you have
:06:33. > :06:36.said. Dominic Crabb was asked the same question and how many currently
:06:37. > :06:41.pose a risk to EU citizens and you cannot say. But of all of them who
:06:42. > :06:46.either haven't all have been released, all of them. These of 50
:06:47. > :06:51.illustrative cases. I am not saying it is a total of 50, there are many
:06:52. > :06:55.more. We have picked 50 cases going from some high profile murderers,
:06:56. > :07:00.like the boy who murdered Philip Lawrence, the headteacher, down to
:07:01. > :07:04.some of let's call the middle ranking cases, salts and rapes and
:07:05. > :07:13.so on. These are not just 50 cases, these are 50... But 130 times that
:07:14. > :07:18.have been removed. But you're not saying that without the European
:07:19. > :07:20.arrest warrant there would be no extraditions or international
:07:21. > :07:23.treaties? The question is how long it would take to put into place
:07:24. > :07:28.alternative arrangements and whether we would have the same arrangements
:07:29. > :07:32.that we have now if we were to come out. That is 27 other countries, you
:07:33. > :07:36.would have to negotiate new arrangements with them. That would
:07:37. > :07:40.take some time and who is to say we would get the same arrangements? The
:07:41. > :07:51.truth of the matter is you don't know. You
:07:52. > :07:54.saw a constituent whose life was ruined because of a false accusation
:07:55. > :07:57.brought under the European arrest warrant. He spent three years under
:07:58. > :07:59.house arrest in Athens, 11 months in one of the nastiest prisons in
:08:00. > :08:02.Europe for what was clearly a case of mistaken identity. He had gone
:08:03. > :08:05.out celebrating his A-levels. By the time he was finally cleared, the
:08:06. > :08:10.people with whom he had been celebrated had finished their
:08:11. > :08:13.degrees. Isn't this about control, that it would be better if the UK
:08:14. > :08:20.control the destiny and fatal criminals rather than Brussels or
:08:21. > :08:23.transport? Well, following negotiation, the uncertainty in this
:08:24. > :08:27.area has been cleared up, which gives us greater power to ensure
:08:28. > :08:30.people are brought to justice here and to remove people but on this
:08:31. > :08:34.issue of control, one of the biggest problems with the Leave Campaign is
:08:35. > :08:38.that they argue all of the problems that we have, whether it is
:08:39. > :08:43.migration, foreign criminals, from the EU or not, all of these problems
:08:44. > :08:48.can be sold by us leaving, and that is for the birds. Take the migration
:08:49. > :08:54.issue, the central issue for voters leave, the migration crisis was not
:08:55. > :08:59.caused by the European Union, it was caused by huge and stability in the
:09:00. > :09:04.Middle East and Africa. We are not saying all of the problems will
:09:05. > :09:07.disappear, we are arguing that in an uncertain world, it must be more
:09:08. > :09:11.secure to take back control so we can mitigate the risks ourselves,
:09:12. > :09:15.rather than passing power to people... We will finish it there
:09:16. > :09:17.because we will come onto the issues of migration and immigration.
:09:18. > :09:21.The Times today reports that former Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls
:09:22. > :09:24.was spotted at the Stoke Newington Literary Festival over the weekend.
:09:25. > :09:31.C) singing the Diana Ross and Lionel Richie classic
:09:32. > :09:44.At the end of the show, Chuka will give us the correct answer.
:09:45. > :09:51.Or seen dead. I won't do that. Thank God -- or seeing it.
:09:52. > :09:54.we've heard a lot from the Remain side
:09:55. > :09:56.about the risks of leaving the EU.
:09:57. > :09:58.Brexit, they say, would be a "leap in the dark",
:09:59. > :10:01.the cause of a "DIY recession" and could even lead to war.
:10:02. > :10:04.But now the Leave campaign is trying to turn the tables and focus
:10:05. > :10:09.Let's take a look at what they've been saying.
:10:10. > :10:12.They argue that remaining in the EU means we will be permanently tied to
:10:13. > :10:17.They say we'll have to hand over more money to the EU in the future,
:10:18. > :10:21.as the UK's growth continues to outstrip other member states.
:10:22. > :10:26.And they say that EU treaties mean we are potentially liable
:10:27. > :10:32.Leave campaigners also argue that remaining
:10:33. > :10:37.in will lead to ever-higher levels of immigration.
:10:38. > :10:39.They say we'll see even more immigration after countries
:10:40. > :10:47.And it's also claimed that high immigration is a particular risk
:10:48. > :10:49.to low-paid workers, as more and more people
:10:50. > :10:53.Staying in the EU is also said to threaten our national security,
:10:54. > :10:57.because we can't stop dangerous people entering the country.
:10:58. > :10:59.Leave campaigners point the finger at the European Court of Justice,
:11:00. > :11:02.which they say sometimes blocks the UK from deporting
:11:03. > :11:09.And they say that plans for an EU Army will undermine both NATO
:11:10. > :11:21.Dan Hannan are still with us. Let's start with national-security, what
:11:22. > :11:27.evidence is there that we will see an EU army any time soon? The
:11:28. > :11:30.commission describes it as a strategic necessity. The commission
:11:31. > :11:35.is not a wacky Federalist think tank, they initiate registration.
:11:36. > :11:39.Jean-Claude Juncker almost every time he opens his mouth says we need
:11:40. > :11:43.this urgently and the Spanish Government, they are all pushing it.
:11:44. > :11:46.Heavily times have we been through this, where we hear British
:11:47. > :11:53.ministers saying no one is proposing it, it is just chitchat... It hasn't
:11:54. > :12:00.happened, of course. That is what we were told about the euro. But it
:12:01. > :12:04.hasn't happened. When people say no one is talking about it, it is no
:12:05. > :12:08.one except the people running the EU. It is clear they wanted, that is
:12:09. > :12:11.the point Dan Hannan is also trying to make, there is a will for it to
:12:12. > :12:18.happen in parts of the European Union, you can't dispute that is
:12:19. > :12:23.what makes you sure it won't happen? There is a mixture of use but
:12:24. > :12:27.certainly not a consensus for a European army and as ever with Dan
:12:28. > :12:29.Hannan, he always quote the European Commission, yes, they are
:12:30. > :12:34.bureaucrats, they are civil servants, and in the end, the people
:12:35. > :12:37.who make the decisions for laws in the European Union are MEPs like
:12:38. > :12:42.that and the European Council, they have to sign off any legislative
:12:43. > :12:48.proposal and I do not see it happening. A clear majority of MEPs
:12:49. > :12:53.are in favour of a European army and a clear majority in the Council. If
:12:54. > :12:56.there is a clear majority of MEPs in the European Parliament, even if
:12:57. > :13:00.there are a number of member states and David Cameron has said today
:13:01. > :13:02.that we have a rock-solid veto on a European army, you can't
:13:03. > :13:09.categorically say it will never happen. There is a veto. But how
:13:10. > :13:14.many states are needed to vote on the European army? What you see is
:13:15. > :13:18.miffed after myth peddled. One minute they say there will be a
:13:19. > :13:22.European army and we say we have a veto, they say it doesn't matter,
:13:23. > :13:25.forget about that, there will be an army. They assert that Turkey will
:13:26. > :13:30.join the European Union and we have a veto on whether they do. You can't
:13:31. > :13:36.function this whole campaign legitimately, can you, on the idea
:13:37. > :13:39.of what might happen, on the fears of people about Turkey, for example,
:13:40. > :13:44.the poster that said 80 million Turks are coming to the UK, which is
:13:45. > :13:51.patently not true at the moment? Can you do the same in issues of trust
:13:52. > :13:55.over the European army? I say to people look at what is happening
:13:56. > :13:58.now, look at the past record. How many times have we seen British
:13:59. > :14:08.prime ministers saying they are going to go and veto this or that. I
:14:09. > :14:12.can remember Tony Blair saying it. I remember discussing it with you on
:14:13. > :14:16.the programme, the time when this Prime Minister said he is not going
:14:17. > :14:20.to pay the extra prosperity surcharge, I am furious, I will not
:14:21. > :14:25.pay it and of course, he ended up having to pay. On this issue of the
:14:26. > :14:29.European army, I have heard Dan and others and I think Dan joined the
:14:30. > :14:32.European Parliament when I was still at school and they have all been
:14:33. > :14:41.threatening a European army because the horrible bureaucrats in Brussels
:14:42. > :14:44.want to create a European superstate and it has not happened. Let's look
:14:45. > :14:47.at some of the claims made by your side. Let's have a look at the
:14:48. > :14:52.Eurozone bailouts and whether the UK would be obliged or compelled to
:14:53. > :14:56.contribute to it, because we know it is absolutely not true, the Prime
:14:57. > :15:03.Minister says, but the reality check agrees in this case with the Remain
:15:04. > :15:06.Campaign. The UK will not pay for future eurozone bailouts, it has
:15:07. > :15:11.been agreed and in addition, the deal from February, which will be
:15:12. > :15:14.implemented in the UK votes to stay, reinforces this and states the UK
:15:15. > :15:19.will be reimbursed if the general EU budget is used for the crisis. That
:15:20. > :15:22.sounds pretty clear. So once again, go on the basis of what we have seen
:15:23. > :15:38.rather than what we have been promised. We were
:15:39. > :15:41.given a cast-iron guarantee that we would not be required to bail out
:15:42. > :15:43.any of the eurozone countries because we kept our currency. At the
:15:44. > :15:46.next General Election -- last General Election, the Prime Minister
:15:47. > :15:48.made a big deal of it. And in June last year, when it became clear they
:15:49. > :15:51.needed the money for the Greek bailout, we became stung. The
:15:52. > :15:55.bridging loan. The Prime Minister described it as a flagrant breach of
:15:56. > :15:57.what is promised. The old saying, fool me once, shame on me, for me
:15:58. > :16:07.twice, shame on me. will use the Treaty of Rome says
:16:08. > :16:10.that all member states can be called on to help any individual member
:16:11. > :16:16.state that might find itself in severe difficulties, from a natural
:16:17. > :16:21.disaster or the migrant crisis, for example. So that could involve the
:16:22. > :16:26.UK bailing out a Eurozone country. Let's be clear, the UK will not
:16:27. > :16:29.contribute to a Eurozone bailout. We are not in the Eurozone. And we have
:16:30. > :16:34.a veto on increases in the European budget. These guys can muddy the
:16:35. > :16:38.water all they like and pick out little things and say because an
:16:39. > :16:41.inch as been given there are, a mile or be given away and we are going to
:16:42. > :16:47.contribute all this money. It won't happen. It is only a matter of time
:16:48. > :16:55.before the crisis hits France or Italy. You know that. You want be
:16:56. > :17:01.dragged into it is a fantasy. Let's pick up on the budget. -- that you
:17:02. > :17:09.won't be dragged into it is a fancy C. The fiscal framework that comes
:17:10. > :17:17.up every seven years, there are individual negotiations that Britain
:17:18. > :17:22.does not have a veto over. It can be passed by qualified majority voting,
:17:23. > :17:27.so in between those two .7 years, the budget can go up and Britain
:17:28. > :17:30.wouldn't be able to stop it. Britain has stopped increases in the budget
:17:31. > :17:39.in the past, and it can in the future. Let me make this point. I
:17:40. > :17:43.think there is a fair point in relation to what happens if there is
:17:44. > :17:48.a complete contrast of the in the Eurozone. What does happen? Go back
:17:49. > :17:52.to when Greece was on the precipice of potentially coming out. There was
:17:53. > :17:57.no question at that time that we would be contributing into the
:17:58. > :18:01.bailout, but people anticipated that if Greece came out there would be a
:18:02. > :18:05.severe humanitarian situation in Greece, not least because of the
:18:06. > :18:11.economy collapsing more than it has already done. In that situation, I
:18:12. > :18:16.don't think even Dan would advocate that the UK shouldn't play some
:18:17. > :18:21.part. At the idea that we would pay into a bailout is for the birds. It
:18:22. > :18:26.won't happen. Right, what about the idea of the budget? Is it true that
:18:27. > :18:31.Britain does have a veto every seven years by those negotiations, but on
:18:32. > :18:35.the annual negotiations they don't? Yes. And for the first time ever in
:18:36. > :18:38.17 years that I have been in the parliament, they have postponed the
:18:39. > :18:42.discussion of the mid-term review until after the referendum. It was
:18:43. > :18:46.due at the start of the year and they said, let's not try to me
:18:47. > :18:50.horses. They are doing this in area after area. The attack on commercial
:18:51. > :18:56.ports, the budget hike, all of these things are being held back for the
:18:57. > :19:08.event of the stay vote that Remain vote. -- in the event of a Remained.
:19:09. > :19:13.They are banning hairdryers and toasters. The higher powered one.
:19:14. > :19:17.They will find a lot of the ones they are currently buying are now
:19:18. > :19:25.banned. Is that because of safety regulations? It has been postponed
:19:26. > :19:32.until after our referendum. It was lifted from the agenda at the last
:19:33. > :19:35.minute and deferred. You are saying that they have banned these
:19:36. > :19:43.electrical appliances, and it turns out they happened at all. So you
:19:44. > :19:48.won't be able to use a hair dryer if we stay in the EU? All of these
:19:49. > :19:58.things have been deferred. In your case, it might not be such a
:19:59. > :20:03.problem! Let down finish the point. The plans for ports is opposed by
:20:04. > :20:09.every port owner. That went through every British -- that went through.
:20:10. > :20:13.Every MEP voted against. And they have deferred until after the
:20:14. > :20:19.summer. There is so much stuff being held back. Every single port owner
:20:20. > :20:27.is against it. You may think it is funny. I am not laughing. You're the
:20:28. > :20:31.one making it up as you go along. Every MEP and owner are posted. You
:20:32. > :20:36.are now making light of it and saying it doesn't matter. You are
:20:37. > :20:42.saying our ports will be shut down? They will face a commercial
:20:43. > :20:44.disadvantage. Let's see what happens in a few weeks. Thank you for coming
:20:45. > :20:47.in. This afternoon, the European
:20:48. > :20:49.Commission is expected to outline new measures to reduce the numbers
:20:50. > :20:51.of migrants attempting to make the journey
:20:52. > :20:53.across the mediterranean Reports suggest the Commission
:20:54. > :20:56.will propose offering some Middle Eastern and north-east
:20:57. > :21:00.African countries extra cash and visa liberalisation in return
:21:01. > :21:17.for their cooperation in stopping Dan Hannan is staying for this bit.
:21:18. > :21:24.What is being proposed precisely, Damien? We don't know the details.
:21:25. > :21:30.They have been debating this morning in the commission, nailing down what
:21:31. > :21:36.they want to release. The full the tiles will come out very shortly. We
:21:37. > :21:42.understand that the broad brush is that this is the latest part of the
:21:43. > :21:45.EU's migration strategy to tackle the migration crisis. We have seen
:21:46. > :21:49.what happened in Greece and Turkey with the deal there. What the
:21:50. > :21:55.commission is saying is that building on that sort of template,
:21:56. > :21:58.that experience, not exactly what has happened there, but similar,
:21:59. > :22:01.because they say it has been successful and we have seen a
:22:02. > :22:05.dramatic reduction in numbers, they are looking at a similar thing with
:22:06. > :22:09.African and Middle Eastern countries. That means essentially
:22:10. > :22:14.these partnerships that they are talking about, which boils down to
:22:15. > :22:19.trying to get the countries of origin, the source countries that
:22:20. > :22:23.the migrants come from, and the countries they pass through to do
:22:24. > :22:27.more to restrict the flows. In return, the EU would offer financial
:22:28. > :22:31.help with things like putting up a fund for development projects in
:22:32. > :22:36.some of those countries in Africa, more money for border controls, for
:22:37. > :22:42.trying to help those transit companies deal with things and put
:22:43. > :22:45.in more border controls, and ultimately offer greater
:22:46. > :22:49.partnerships in terms of access to the European Union for legal
:22:50. > :22:55.migration, so that would be people who would be able to get work
:22:56. > :22:59.permits to work in the EU. We're not talking huge numbers. The current
:23:00. > :23:06.numbers under this blue card scheme that exists for skilled migrants is
:23:07. > :23:13.about ten - 12,000 per year, but talking about that is going up to
:23:14. > :23:16.between 30000 and 100,000 a year of skilled migrants able to come in.
:23:17. > :23:21.These are promises that would be given down the line and they
:23:22. > :23:24.promised preferential trade. Briefly, have you had any
:23:25. > :23:28.conversations with these countries themselves? Are they eager for these
:23:29. > :23:34.deals and partnerships to happen to deal with the migrant crisis? The
:23:35. > :23:38.difficulty with a lot of this is that many of the countries that are
:23:39. > :23:44.key to this are very difficult for the EU to deal with. Libya, of
:23:45. > :23:48.course, is the key transit point for the route to Italy, which is the
:23:49. > :23:53.biggest issue facing the EU at the minute. The numbers coming through
:23:54. > :23:58.that route are far greater than the numbers crossing from Turkey to
:23:59. > :24:03.Greece, but there is no Government, no authority in Libya for the EU to
:24:04. > :24:07.deal with at the minute with whom they could implement something like
:24:08. > :24:11.this. That is a problem. It is a problem for the EU to try to deal
:24:12. > :24:15.with countries like Sudan and Eritrea, which are source countries
:24:16. > :24:20.but which have human rights concerns in terms of doing a deal. The focus
:24:21. > :24:24.initially will perhaps be more on places like Jordan, Lebanon, and
:24:25. > :24:29.then perhaps some West African countries. Thank you. Can this work
:24:30. > :24:35.with these countries, particularly those who don't have governments
:24:36. > :24:39.that we can deal with? It is welcome that we have these developments. I
:24:40. > :24:45.hope they work. In the end, I hope this this is something -- this is
:24:46. > :24:55.something that is a cross-border issue and we can deal with it on our
:24:56. > :24:58.own. The other issue is an skewering there is sufficient aid closer to
:24:59. > :25:02.the countries of origin for these refugees so that they don't actually
:25:03. > :25:08.have to make the dangerous trip, or they don't feel the pull to make
:25:09. > :25:11.that trip. This is why they want to try and replicate the deal that they
:25:12. > :25:17.have done with Turkey - it has worked. Talking about the countries
:25:18. > :25:25.of origin is our way of not facing the question. Do you disagree? I
:25:26. > :25:31.spent a lot of last summer volunteering in a hostility in Italy
:25:32. > :25:41.dealing with underage migrants were crossing the Mediterranean. -- in a
:25:42. > :25:44.hostel in Italy. Buy what about turning them away? They are coming
:25:45. > :25:51.because of rising wealth and aspiration. The telephones and
:25:52. > :25:58.technology that make it possible to cross the Sahara in a way that there
:25:59. > :26:08.are subsistence -- that there is subsistence farmer grandparents
:26:09. > :26:12.could not. They have not... People are coming through alternative
:26:13. > :26:16.routes, either through Hungary or whatever. Do you think it could
:26:17. > :26:21.work? The real problem the EU had was that it invited people in, and
:26:22. > :26:25.because it had the Schengen zone, and there was no responsibility for
:26:26. > :26:29.each country, there was a perverse incentive to waive people through to
:26:30. > :26:33.the next jurisdiction. This has been the problem all along, and the
:26:34. > :26:38.question for Britain and everyone else is, we can see that the EU is
:26:39. > :26:44.being convulsed by these twin crises. Could the UK deal with a
:26:45. > :26:47.better alone? Yes. Are we going to make them our problems or are we
:26:48. > :26:56.going to reorient towards the rest of the world? Voting to stay in is
:26:57. > :27:01.not the same as... We are not part of the Schengen passport - free
:27:02. > :27:04.zone. There is a big contradiction in what Dan is saying. He is saying
:27:05. > :27:09.all these people are coming because of the pull on the wealthy get in
:27:10. > :27:14.the Eurozone, and on the other hand he is telling you the Eurozone is a
:27:15. > :27:20.basket case. That is why they are heading here. Because the UK -- the
:27:21. > :27:25.the EU is a basket case? In the final weeks before the EU
:27:26. > :27:28.referendum, we have been showcasing the arguments for Leave and Remain
:27:29. > :27:30.made by members of different In a moment, we'll hear
:27:31. > :27:35.from the Labour MP and chair of the Vote Leave campaign,
:27:36. > :27:37.Gisela Stuart. First, here's Labour's Shadow
:27:38. > :27:39.Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, with the Labour case for remaining
:27:40. > :27:50.in the EU. The peaceful and prosperous Europe
:27:51. > :27:54.we are part of today is a far It is a Europe of cooperation that
:27:55. > :27:58.has brought jobs, investment and growth,
:27:59. > :28:03.that enables us to work, And that cooperation is exactly
:28:04. > :28:10.what the next generation is going to rely on to deal
:28:11. > :28:12.with the challenges that Making sure our economy
:28:13. > :28:17.is strong so that we can pay for our NHS, dealing with
:28:18. > :28:21.the movement of people because of conflict and climate
:28:22. > :28:23.change, keeping us safe, and making the most
:28:24. > :28:25.of the Walking away from Europe
:28:26. > :28:32.isn't going to help our children and our grandchildren
:28:33. > :28:34.to manage the change that they are What will is continuing
:28:35. > :28:40.to work with our neighbours in Europe,
:28:41. > :28:42.and we're good at it. Britain has always been
:28:43. > :28:43.an It is why we have such
:28:44. > :28:47.influence around the This is not a vote about the past,
:28:48. > :28:54.it is a vote about our future. Let's secure that future
:28:55. > :29:10.by voting Remain. That was Hilary Benn. And here is
:29:11. > :29:26.Gisela Stuart, with the Labour case for leaving the EU.
:29:27. > :29:28.The EU once promised a social Europe defending Labour's values.
:29:29. > :29:31.Today, the left make up only a third of
:29:32. > :29:33.those running the EU, which is dominated by the leaders
:29:34. > :29:35.of the right, even the far right, and their
:29:36. > :29:40.George Osborne, Goldman Sachs, the CBI, the
:29:41. > :29:44.Institute of Directors - it is a Tory-EU elite,
:29:45. > :29:47.campaigning first to remain part of their EU that they
:29:48. > :29:54.But if we vote Leave, we take back control.
:29:55. > :29:56.We would be better off if we used the ?350 million
:29:57. > :30:00.that we send to the EU each week to build the NHS.
:30:01. > :30:02.We would be safer if we controlled our borders and protected
:30:03. > :30:04.our public services by not ratifying TTIP.
:30:05. > :30:09.protected from the Eurozone's austerity that has left a
:30:10. > :30:11.generation of young people without work.
:30:12. > :30:12.And we would be fairer if we
:30:13. > :30:15.end the discrimination in our immigration system and end the
:30:16. > :30:19.erosion of wages in our poorest communities.
:30:20. > :30:22.We can build a better future based on Labour values, but
:30:23. > :30:24.only if we vote Leave and take back control.
:30:25. > :30:43.And Gisela Stuart is here with us now.
:30:44. > :30:50.Welcome back to the Daily Politics. First of all, Chuka Umunna, this
:30:51. > :30:55.idea, you must accept surely, that there are more people competing for
:30:56. > :30:59.relatively low-paid jobs that depresses wages, which is bad news
:31:00. > :31:04.for a lot of your voters and that is a result of EU migration? I don't
:31:05. > :31:09.quite accepted the way you have put. I have huge respect for Gisela, who
:31:10. > :31:13.is a friend and we agree on so many things, but on this, we
:31:14. > :31:17.fundamentally disagree, as do the overwhelming majority of MPs in the
:31:18. > :31:22.Labour Party. Are you saying it doesn't depress wages for the
:31:23. > :31:28.low-paid, EU migration? I would not disagree that it has posed
:31:29. > :31:32.difficulties in the Labour market, but what I would say is that in the
:31:33. > :31:36.end, if you want to prevent depression in wages, you need to get
:31:37. > :31:39.a good national minimum wage going up and properly enforce it, which
:31:40. > :31:44.the current Government isn't doing and secondly, a lot of people, when
:31:45. > :31:48.I have had this discussion, so these people are taking our jobs. The idea
:31:49. > :31:52.that if the people who supposedly are taking the jobs, when they go,
:31:53. > :32:05.others can step in, is for the birds. The big problem we have in
:32:06. > :32:06.the Labour market is we are not equipping people with the right
:32:07. > :32:09.skills, technical vocational skills and apprenticeships to make it. The
:32:10. > :32:17.big thing the EU does, not only is it a big wealth and jobs generator,
:32:18. > :32:23.the countries representing over 600 members, the important thing is that
:32:24. > :32:26.we have a flaw in terms of jobs and workers' rights across the European
:32:27. > :32:30.Union that prevents British workers being played off against French
:32:31. > :32:34.workers or German workers or any others. Do you accept the great
:32:35. > :32:38.strides that have been paid by the EU and UK workers enjoy the workers'
:32:39. > :32:43.rights passed by the EU and compelled the Government to actually
:32:44. > :32:52.put them into statute? I am kind of puzzled by this historical analysis.
:32:53. > :32:53.If you look at workers' rights in the United Kingdom, they have been
:32:54. > :32:55.far more progressive than the rest of the European Union. Many of the
:32:56. > :32:59.rights which are now even more generous in the United Kingdom
:33:00. > :33:04.started well before then. Equal pay for women goes back to Made In
:33:05. > :33:08.Dagenham and Barbara Castle and all those things. We now have European
:33:09. > :33:11.Court of Justice rulings, things like the right to strike will be
:33:12. > :33:21.curtailed in the interest of the full movement. Which ruling? The
:33:22. > :33:27.Viking ship the case. Brendan Barber contended, Alan Johnson did. So the
:33:28. > :33:34.rightward coverlet of the right to strike would be withdrawn? The
:33:35. > :33:38.European Court of Justice made it clear that if you want to strike,
:33:39. > :33:44.the interests of the European Union overrule the interests... This is a
:33:45. > :33:47.once in a generation decision on how we conduct ourselves in the future
:33:48. > :33:51.and who should make the decisions. The eurozone at the moment has
:33:52. > :33:57.enormous youth unemployment. They can only resolve it with the
:33:58. > :34:00.eurozone or deeply integrates as a political institution. We will be
:34:01. > :34:04.collectively better off if our economies are more successful. The
:34:05. > :34:09.eurozone has to go one way and our future is a different way. I used to
:34:10. > :34:12.be an employment lawyer for the best part of a decade and if you look at
:34:13. > :34:19.temporary worker rights, anti-discrimination rights,
:34:20. > :34:24.anti-discrimination... All of those things derive from EU legislation
:34:25. > :34:27.but the principal point I made to Gisela, which is having this floor
:34:28. > :34:33.and a standard set of rights across 28 member states, stops that race to
:34:34. > :34:40.the bottom where our rides could potentially be set off against
:34:41. > :34:45.German or Polish employees. And on the eurozone, because Gisela brought
:34:46. > :34:49.it up, let's be clear, we are not a member of the eurozone, but being
:34:50. > :34:55.part of the single market, let's not forget, it is our biggest customer,
:34:56. > :35:01.44% of our exports Kovach, creates jobs. Look at the chairman of
:35:02. > :35:04.Hitachi, employs 41,000 people in our country, developing trends in
:35:05. > :35:09.the north-east, it is clear that if we let the EU, it would affect
:35:10. > :35:12.investment decisions. Can we come back to certain things? The lowest
:35:13. > :35:17.paid at the moment, the Bank of England says for every 10% of
:35:18. > :35:20.immigration, 2% of the wages are suppressed. We have big companies
:35:21. > :35:24.are able to not train workers because they can fish from an
:35:25. > :35:31.enormous big pool of workers across the European Union who are prepared
:35:32. > :35:33.to work for very low wages. The Labour Party today makes a case
:35:34. > :35:36.about workers' rights, let's come back to that, workers' rights are
:35:37. > :35:43.any meaningful if you have got a job, that is the really important
:35:44. > :35:49.thing. Let Gisela finish a point. May I just finished? If you go back
:35:50. > :35:52.to the workers' rights and employment record, what I found in
:35:53. > :35:55.the United Kingdom, what has produced good workers' rights and
:35:56. > :36:00.feathers have been strong trade unions and strong Labour governments
:36:01. > :36:05.and even the most right-wing Tory governments have been unable to undo
:36:06. > :36:08.this. Minimum wage, remember the great evening whether Labour
:36:09. > :36:11.Government introduced it? If you want progressive social rights and
:36:12. > :36:16.employment, you make sure you have a Labour Government. I think we are
:36:17. > :36:20.both agreed that a Labour Government is a way to creating a more
:36:21. > :36:23.progressive... Do you think a Labour Government will not come in so you
:36:24. > :36:29.need the EU? For all of the claims how we need to take control, the
:36:30. > :36:33.national minimum wage is an example of how we do and Gisela is right, we
:36:34. > :36:37.need strong trade unions but the overwhelming majority of trade union
:36:38. > :36:44.representing the overwhelming majority of members want to stay in
:36:45. > :36:48.the EU. The US trade deal, do you support that deal? Not in its
:36:49. > :36:52.current form, it needs to change. I have said let's wait and see and I
:36:53. > :36:58.have spoken to the current trade Commissioner about this and to the
:36:59. > :37:01.previous one and the idea that our socialist colleagues in Government
:37:02. > :37:06.in France, social Democratic colleagues in Sweden and the new
:37:07. > :37:10.Socialist Government in Portugal, potential coalition partners in
:37:11. > :37:15.Spain, would sign off on agreement that is detrimental to promoting
:37:16. > :37:18.equality and public services... The report from the European
:37:19. > :37:22.Parliament's policy Department has predicted that more than a million
:37:23. > :37:29.EU citizens will be forced out of work as a direct result of TTIP,
:37:30. > :37:36.including 150,000 in the UK, which is why Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn
:37:37. > :37:41.is vetoing it. But let's be clear, we don't have a final agreement.
:37:42. > :37:47.Hillary Clinton isn't terribly keen. Will jobs be lost as a result of
:37:48. > :37:53.TTIP? It is not agree Jed. Transparency, regulations levelling
:37:54. > :37:57.up and down and it implies that a different US state to get the value
:37:58. > :38:00.back in the UK. We do not have formal final agreement, the
:38:01. > :38:06.presumptive Democratic nominee doesn't agree with it and nor does
:38:07. > :38:12.our Government. So it sounds like it will not happen whether we stay in
:38:13. > :38:15.or out of the EU? No, but TTIP illustrate something important.
:38:16. > :38:18.Don't you find it troubling that we don't even see the text?
:38:19. > :38:24.Negotiations are going somewhere else. Two thirds of the Governments
:38:25. > :38:28.that will make the decisions are no right or centre-right governments,
:38:29. > :38:35.so workers' rights are not at the top. Even Germany is unhappy with
:38:36. > :38:39.TTIP. Big companies can take Government to court, which will
:38:40. > :38:45.seriously undermined the NHS. Are we going to agree? It sounds like there
:38:46. > :38:49.will be an awful lot of opposition. Westminster Parliament have no say
:38:50. > :38:52.in this until the end, so I am against big vested interest making
:38:53. > :38:57.deals behind doors where we as elected representatives are only
:38:58. > :39:03.dealt with at the end of it. But it is untrue to say Parliament hasn't
:39:04. > :39:06.had a say. Once you get the text put before European Council, the
:39:07. > :39:09.democratically elected Government of United Kingdom and governments of
:39:10. > :39:13.all other member state countries will have an input. The idea that
:39:14. > :39:18.when is published and we have to accept it, is totally untrue. But to
:39:19. > :39:24.take control means to vote Labour and we can make decisions about
:39:25. > :39:25.this. Well, you got the last word. She didn't, you just butted in
:39:26. > :39:26.again! In the last hour, Mike Ashley -
:39:27. > :39:29.the founder and boss of one of Europe's biggest sports
:39:30. > :39:31.retailers, Sports Direct - has been questioned by MPs
:39:32. > :39:34.on the Business Select committee, about claims that thousands
:39:35. > :39:36.of his warehouse workers have effectively been paid below
:39:37. > :39:38.the minimum wage. Here was Mike Ashley
:39:39. > :39:42.being questioned by MPs a little You are the founder of the company,
:39:43. > :39:47.you have grown this company you wouldn't be impartial
:39:48. > :39:52.when it comes to this. Do you need somebody independent
:39:53. > :39:55.to look at this with I can agree with you that in some
:39:56. > :40:03.ways, I am not the right person, because I am not an expert
:40:04. > :40:06.in every area of employment. Obviously, it is not my field
:40:07. > :40:09.of expertise, it is not So, yes, there could be other people
:40:10. > :40:17.that you could have said would have been better qualified than me
:40:18. > :40:20.to do it. In terms of what you have been doing
:40:21. > :40:24.in regards to this review, are there some things you have found
:40:25. > :40:26.out that you didn't Some things have come as a bit
:40:27. > :40:35.of an unpleasant surprise, yes. Could I also ask, in terms
:40:36. > :40:38.of the allegations that were made in December about searches,
:40:39. > :40:40.you were talking about bottlenecks, do you accept that the company
:40:41. > :40:42.was effectively paying workers On that specific point for that
:40:43. > :40:53.specific bit of time, yes. When people are searched at the end
:40:54. > :40:56.of the working shift, If I clock off at five o'clock
:40:57. > :41:02.and it takes five or ten minutes, would I be paid for those
:41:03. > :41:05.extra ten minutes? You shouldn't take five or ten
:41:06. > :41:12.minutes, that is point. We now talk to Kate Andrews from
:41:13. > :41:14.the Institute Of Economic Affairs, and of course, Chuka Umunna,
:41:15. > :41:17.who was Labour's Shadow Business Secretary 2011-2015 and has also
:41:18. > :41:28.worked as an employment lawyer. He is still here with us. Kate
:41:29. > :41:33.Andrews, is it right that the businessmen like Mike Ashley should
:41:34. > :41:37.come before a committee of MPs and be grilled? If it is suspected he is
:41:38. > :41:43.up to illegal behaviour, then yes, probably. Anybody, even if they
:41:44. > :41:47.support the surveillance, should be deeply uncomfortable with the way
:41:48. > :41:49.Sports Direct has handled this issue with employees having to strip down
:41:50. > :41:55.to see if they have potentially stolen anything. Very uncomfortable
:41:56. > :41:58.there. But if you look back to the original story, when the Guardian
:41:59. > :42:02.reported it, they reported the surveillance issue and that
:42:03. > :42:06.employees were penalised if they turned up late, cuts to their wages,
:42:07. > :42:09.and they acted like it was the same thing and this is what I am
:42:10. > :42:13.fundamentally concerned about. Employees have the right to enter
:42:14. > :42:16.into any voluntary contract with the employer as long as it is legal and
:42:17. > :42:19.we should rightly question whether or not Sports Direct has invaded on
:42:20. > :42:25.people's privacy with the surveillance issue, but suggesting
:42:26. > :42:30.an employer cannot have penalties for people is being later work and
:42:31. > :42:35.overstep by the Government. Other things were cited, people talking on
:42:36. > :42:38.mobile phones when on shift, people breaching quite basic levels of
:42:39. > :42:43.behaviour that actually the public might think is totally acceptable.
:42:44. > :42:47.Director to enact. I tabled an urgent question on this in December
:42:48. > :42:50.in relation to whether or not Sports Direct were complying with
:42:51. > :42:53.obligations to pay the national minimum wage, which interlinks
:42:54. > :42:57.because there was the question of whether people were being paid for
:42:58. > :43:03.the time they sent being body searched, so to speak, and I am
:43:04. > :43:07.pleased that HMRC appear to have vindicated the concerns that I and
:43:08. > :43:09.other MPs raised, because it seems an agreement to compensate employees
:43:10. > :43:15.will time they should have been paid has been reached, that has just come
:43:16. > :43:19.out on the website for the BBC before I came into the studio. But
:43:20. > :43:24.there are things that companies are able to do in the law and there are
:43:25. > :43:29.things that we all expect of companies, as citizens, in our
:43:30. > :43:33.economy and in society and specifically, because I am aware of
:43:34. > :43:37.how litigious some of these CEOs and chair people can be and I'm sure the
:43:38. > :43:41.BBC are as well, so let me reserve my comments for the companies as
:43:42. > :43:44.opposed to the people running them, but I think what we have seen
:43:45. > :43:50.through the working practices of Sports Direct but also recent events
:43:51. > :43:54.at BHS is the ugly underbelly of capitalism, where people are treated
:43:55. > :44:00.appallingly badly. But that is not the same as being treated in an
:44:01. > :44:03.illegal fashion. But my argument... Look, I think British business on
:44:04. > :44:08.the whole treats its employees very well indeed and has a huge amount
:44:09. > :44:12.and contributes a huge amount but the problem with practices like this
:44:13. > :44:16.is, look, there are lots of things the law allows us to do but we
:44:17. > :44:20.choose not to do them because we care for our fellow citizens and
:44:21. > :44:24.human beings. Let's look at the moral code, then, do you feel
:44:25. > :44:30.comfortable with that or is it, as reported, that shares have fallen in
:44:31. > :44:34.Sports Direct because of the negative publicity, by 45%. In a
:44:35. > :44:40.way, the market will make a decision is bad practice is going on? Well,
:44:41. > :44:43.talking about the underbelly of capitalism, it is blatantly ignoring
:44:44. > :44:47.the fact that the market has spoken on the issue and when illegal
:44:48. > :44:51.behaviour is suggested, people do appear in front of bodies publicly
:44:52. > :45:00.and are held to account, but what this Government wants to do in the
:45:01. > :45:05.Labour movement is crack down on... Do they have the choice, when it
:45:06. > :45:11.comes to zero hours contracts, it may sue people but many do not have
:45:12. > :45:14.a choice. It suits politicians to say people are being treated
:45:15. > :45:18.unfairly but look at the facts and what employees have to say when it
:45:19. > :45:22.comes to zero hours contracts. 60% of people are satisfied or very
:45:23. > :45:26.satisfied with the contract, 2% higher than the average full-time
:45:27. > :45:31.worker. Nine out of ten on zero hours contracts say they do not want
:45:32. > :45:35.more working hours, often students or parents raising children, who
:45:36. > :45:39.want flexibility. The Government uses examples like Sports Direct,
:45:40. > :45:43.admittedly a bad example, but they want to come in and bring sweeping
:45:44. > :45:52.regulation to stop people from having flexibility that they want.
:45:53. > :45:58.Have you ever worked a zero-hours contract? No, but my friend has. Are
:45:59. > :46:03.you saying that they don't suit anyone? Know, and I didn't say it
:46:04. > :46:08.when I was Shadow Business Secretary. I have seen data as to
:46:09. > :46:10.whether people are satisfied or not but I don't accept the
:46:11. > :46:15.characterisation of those figures and how they have been put forward.
:46:16. > :46:18.Let's look at the reality. There are lots of people who have been on
:46:19. > :46:23.zero-hours contracts, and it means that you don't know when your next
:46:24. > :46:28.shift will come. It means it is very hard, for example, to get a
:46:29. > :46:34.mortgage, because you do not have stable income. I don't think there
:46:35. > :46:39.is an issue with politicians. You say that politicians use us. I
:46:40. > :46:42.represent 100,000 people and I have constituents who come to me about
:46:43. > :46:45.the way they are treated and the instability in their lives because
:46:46. > :46:55.of zero-hours contract. Would you ban them? I wouldn't, but they need
:46:56. > :46:59.to be tightened up a lot more. You can be required to be on call,
:47:00. > :47:04.you're not offered a shift and you do not get paid anything. It is
:47:05. > :47:08.unacceptable. Is it better than not having a job? You would clearly
:47:09. > :47:12.rather have a job. But if you don't have any hours that pay you a
:47:13. > :47:19.salary, some people would question the benefit. Chuka has questioned
:47:20. > :47:25.the figures unsatisfied and very satisfied. It seems unlikely that
:47:26. > :47:29.that number of people would favour in security. If Chalker has other
:47:30. > :47:36.figures, he is welcome to share them. I am sure they are accurate.
:47:37. > :47:40.It has been said that you could not be just from that that everyone is
:47:41. > :47:45.happy being on a zero-hours contract. This is what we get from
:47:46. > :47:48.Government politicians who know -- you think that they know best
:47:49. > :47:52.possible society. You're suggesting that those people shouldn't have the
:47:53. > :47:56.same opportunities because you are uncomfortable. I speak for
:47:57. > :48:00.constituents who come into my surgery. I represent people and have
:48:01. > :48:04.a mandate. If you want to get to the heart of the problem, you need to
:48:05. > :48:09.address the fact that the economy is stagnant and there are not enough
:48:10. > :48:13.full-time jobs. If you were to lower taxes and bring in investment, you
:48:14. > :48:17.and I could be on the same page. For people who want full time jobs, they
:48:18. > :48:22.should be able to have them. But we are not addressing those who want
:48:23. > :48:25.the flexibility. You are probably -- you're just condemning capitalism.
:48:26. > :48:27.Kate, thank you very much. 150 years ago today,
:48:28. > :48:29.John Stuart Mill presented a petition in Parliament,
:48:30. > :48:35.calling for votes for women. It was seen as the start
:48:36. > :48:38.of the women's suffrage movement. To celebrate, MPs are unveiling
:48:39. > :48:41.a new artwork in Westminster Hall later this evening, and it's called
:48:42. > :48:43.New Dawn. Our Ellie has been given
:48:44. > :49:03.an exclusive sneaky peak. New Dawn is about celebrating
:49:04. > :49:07.all the women that fought for the vote,
:49:08. > :49:09.and having it above the entrance to
:49:10. > :49:14.St Stephens's, that's where all the women would have come in originally
:49:15. > :49:17.at the time of the protests, and these are the steps
:49:18. > :49:19.that they would have walked through, where
:49:20. > :49:21.they were It is a very powerful
:49:22. > :49:25.position to put the 180 different glass discs,
:49:26. > :49:33.New Dawn has taken over a year to It is the first time a piece
:49:34. > :49:37.of abstract art has been commissioned for permanent display
:49:38. > :49:40.in Parliament, and MPs have been overseeing some of
:49:41. > :49:41.the crucial points in the creative process,
:49:42. > :49:43.and even When 14-year-old girls go around
:49:44. > :49:49.Parliament, they see that Parliament is a place for them,
:49:50. > :49:52.because if they were just to wander around, they would see lots
:49:53. > :49:54.of commemorations of men, lots of They would see a statue
:49:55. > :49:58.to Margaret Thatcher and a couple of busts,
:49:59. > :50:00.but otherwise, they would be wondering
:50:01. > :50:03.why it was such an alien Once all the glass was made,
:50:04. > :50:09.the final piece was set up and tested in a warehouse in
:50:10. > :50:12.West London, again, in front of an And even those involved
:50:13. > :50:19.were taken aback. I hadn't visualised how
:50:20. > :50:22.going to be, and it was only ten minutes ago
:50:23. > :50:24.that I first saw it, and
:50:25. > :50:33.When we first heard about Mary's concept, I'm not sure that any of us
:50:34. > :50:38.appreciated that it would take kilometres of wiring
:50:39. > :50:40.and the complexity of programming, but I think it is
:50:41. > :50:45.something that is going to work fantastically well and be a proper
:50:46. > :50:46.monument to the suffragettes in Parliament.
:50:47. > :50:49.There is a reason for the technology, and it's not just
:50:50. > :50:53.The whole thing is linked to the height of the River
:50:54. > :50:55.Thames, so as the tide changes, this sequence will change.
:50:56. > :50:59.We have settings for high tide, low tide and
:51:00. > :51:07.It was a struggle that lasted more than 70 years, now a permanent
:51:08. > :51:10.reminder for the hundreds of thousands of people who fought so
:51:11. > :51:28.And the artist who designed and made the artwork,
:51:29. > :51:40.It's beautiful. I haven't seen it in situ, but explain to me the discs.
:51:41. > :51:46.OK. When I first started my residency in Parliament in 2014, I
:51:47. > :51:53.went to look at the archives to build up an idea of the movement,
:51:54. > :52:01.and to understand about women's suffrage. The first place I went to
:52:02. > :52:04.was the Act Room, in Parliament, and it's an incredible space, filled
:52:05. > :52:09.with hundreds of thousands of scrolls on vellum. I wanted to
:52:10. > :52:18.include that within the artwork. That is what they represent? Yes.
:52:19. > :52:23.And legislation and laws related to the suffragette movement. Have you
:52:24. > :52:26.seen a? I haven't, and I am looking forward to. I think we take a
:52:27. > :52:31.granted many of the rights that people have today, and there is a
:52:32. > :52:35.degree of casual sexism, dare I say, Parliament. It shows that although
:52:36. > :52:40.we have made great strides forward, we have some way to go. I looked at
:52:41. > :52:43.some of the history of this, and the first meeting of the Parliamentary
:52:44. > :52:50.Labour Party, and admittedly our meetings are blithely on a Monday...
:52:51. > :52:55.They are at the moment! They are. But on the agenda was to look at how
:52:56. > :52:58.to ensure that we got the ball from women in this country. Of course, it
:52:59. > :53:02.was part of a wide coalition of people. The thing that in terms of
:53:03. > :53:08.other installations, sculptures and bus that are there, that it does
:53:09. > :53:16.still feel like a bastion of maleness? I have been over two years
:53:17. > :53:19.now, and I was surprised that it doesn't feel like that to me. I
:53:20. > :53:22.think there is another face of Parliament where everyone who works
:53:23. > :53:29.within the building, it is very different from what I think people
:53:30. > :53:34.perceive on the outside. But that is just my own interpretation and how I
:53:35. > :53:38.felt while I was in Parliament. One of the things that was mentioned
:53:39. > :53:45.that I didn't understand was that the installation changes with the
:53:46. > :53:52.tides. Yes. How does that work? All the glass this could have LED lights
:53:53. > :54:03.behind and they are individually driven -- all the glass desks have
:54:04. > :54:08.LED lights. Why did you do that? All of the pictures and posters that I
:54:09. > :54:12.discovered during my research said that you could not hold back the
:54:13. > :54:16.tide of change, so I wanted to include that element in the artwork,
:54:17. > :54:20.but I also wanted it to be a living artwork and relevant to women now
:54:21. > :54:25.and what is happening within Parliament now. I wanted it to speed
:54:26. > :54:33.to young women and ourselves. And the public can see it? All the time.
:54:34. > :54:37.You can get tickets, go online to the parliamentary box office, and
:54:38. > :54:38.then you can see it. Thank you for coming in.
:54:39. > :54:40.There are plenty of events in the annual parliamentary calendar
:54:41. > :54:43.worth getting into your diary - the Queen's Speech, the Budget,
:54:44. > :54:46.And of course, the Lords versus MPs tug-of-war contest.
:54:47. > :54:49.And in case you missed it, Giles went along to check out
:54:50. > :55:00.Like pancakes and pet dogs, Parliament has its annual
:55:01. > :55:04.traditions. The tug-of-war for Mike Millen Cancer support is one such
:55:05. > :55:17.event, now 30 years old. And it comes with bells on. Some bubbles,
:55:18. > :55:21.bugles, no strings attached, and of course, there is plenty of rope. If
:55:22. > :55:30.you fancied the PM pulling against Mr Corbyn, I'm afraid not. I had
:55:31. > :55:42.gone along merely to observe, when the House of Lords came calling.
:55:43. > :55:53.Have I been ennobled? Once the ladies did the... Their best to beat
:55:54. > :55:59.the ladies that are... I rushed back to the office to change. So it came
:56:00. > :56:04.to pass that their Lordships and I took to the field of bad dreams, and
:56:05. > :56:17.I appraise the Commons opposition. Is it rude to say that the MPs have
:56:18. > :56:32.some rather large people? Ready, Paul! -- pull! Eight years. They
:56:33. > :56:38.have done it. My help was not enough. Dam, that's exhausting. It
:56:39. > :56:42.is, however, the taking part and not be winning that counts, and I was
:56:43. > :56:46.proud to be part of the only occasion it is OK for politicians to
:56:47. > :56:52.go won the pole. Great endline! We have been joined
:56:53. > :56:57.by the Lib Dem peer Lord Addington, and the Conservative MP Graham
:56:58. > :57:03.Evans. Was it the weight of the Commons that did it? Absolutely. I
:57:04. > :57:07.would not say you were large, but you look quite beefy. We had the
:57:08. > :57:12.largest member of the law steam and the smallest member of the Commons.
:57:13. > :57:16.Do you blame Giles for losing? I would blame everyone but myself
:57:17. > :57:24.because I am a politician. Was it your first time? It was my sixth
:57:25. > :57:31.time. I would like to think we are pulling together for a good cause.
:57:32. > :57:41.Why did you not take part? I wasn't asked. Next year. Was this your
:57:42. > :57:46.first time? I am a veteran of the first time it happened, 29 years
:57:47. > :57:51.ago. We won for the first few years where we had this battery of people
:57:52. > :57:59.who spent their time wrestling cals on farms who would turn up and win.
:58:00. > :58:13.-- wrestling cattle. Do you do any practice? Politics and tug-of-war
:58:14. > :58:14.are both team games. Thank you, gentlemen. You deserve a
:58:15. > :58:16.lie down. There's just time before we go
:58:17. > :58:19.to find out the answer to our quiz. According to the Times,
:58:20. > :58:23.what was Ed Balls up to at a London or d) tweeting about himself?
:58:24. > :58:45.Richie classic, Endless Love, I think it was Endless Love, wasn't
:58:46. > :58:46.it? It was. On that note, thank you for being my guest.
:58:47. > :58:49.Thanks to Chuka Umunna and all my guests.
:58:50. > :58:52.The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:53. > :58:55.I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage