:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.As Labour is warned it's talking too much to Hampstead instead of Hull,
:00:44. > :00:47.the party tries to get on the front foot over the EU referendum,
:00:48. > :00:52.claiming that a vote to leave will hit working people hard.
:00:53. > :00:55.There was no love lost between Leave and Remain camps
:00:56. > :00:57.in the first real TV debate of the campaign.
:00:58. > :01:00.We'll be chewing over their performance.
:01:01. > :01:03.We'll be looking at the EU's new plan to stem the flow
:01:04. > :01:06.of migrants from Africa with the offer of financial help.
:01:07. > :01:15.Are our universities really now filled with students determined
:01:16. > :01:27.And with us for the first half of the programme today
:01:28. > :01:32.She's the director of the Institute of Ideas -
:01:33. > :01:35.which is handy, as we're always short of a few fresh
:01:36. > :01:39.ideas on this show - and she's also supporting a vote
:01:40. > :01:44.to leave in the EU referendum, just so you know.
:01:45. > :01:48.So let's begin by talking about last night's ITV debate
:01:49. > :01:52.It was the first real debate of the campaign,
:01:53. > :01:56.after big figures on the Remain side like David Cameron refused to go
:01:57. > :01:58.head to head with their opponents, preferring instead interviews
:01:59. > :02:03.or question and answers. So what did we learn?
:02:04. > :02:05.Well, the Leave camp were hammering home their slogan "Take control",
:02:06. > :02:07.while Remain hammered home their criticism
:02:08. > :02:13.of Boris Johnson. Let's have a look.
:02:14. > :02:16.There isn't a silver bullet, and I know that's what Boris
:02:17. > :02:20.and his team would like to have, but you need to look at the numbers,
:02:21. > :02:22.although I fear the only number that Boris is interested in
:02:23. > :02:28.There is a member of that panel who's complained about the Remain
:02:29. > :02:31.campaign and said that it's miserable, negative and fear based,
:02:32. > :02:34.and fear-based campaigning of this kind
:02:35. > :02:36.starts to insult people's intelligence.
:02:37. > :02:43.Nicola Sturgeon... Boris Johnson is not interested...
:02:44. > :02:47.Please, Nicola Sturgeon, we must allow Boris Johnson to respond.
:02:48. > :02:50.He is only interested in David Cameron's job. Thank you.
:02:51. > :02:54.What we are hearing from the Remain side,
:02:55. > :02:57.particularly from Nicola Sturgeon, is that in fact we should stay
:02:58. > :03:00.in the European Union because, as this country elected
:03:01. > :03:04.a Conservative government, we need to stay in the
:03:05. > :03:07.European Union so that it can overrule a democratically elected
:03:08. > :03:11.government and then do what she wants it to do.
:03:12. > :03:21.Boris, you don't seem to care about the millions of jobs
:03:22. > :03:23.that will be at risk if we leave the EU.
:03:24. > :03:26.I think you only care about one job, and that's your next one.
:03:27. > :03:31.I don't think that you care, sorry. I'm afraid I missed the insult!
:03:32. > :03:45.I don't think that you care about the...
:03:46. > :03:52.I told you it was pretty feisty! Let's talk about it.
:03:53. > :03:55.And to talk about the debate we're joined by George Pascoe-Watson
:03:56. > :03:59.from the public-relations firm Portland Communications.
:04:00. > :04:08.Could use some this up, Remain side, Boris bad, Boris bad, Boris bad, and
:04:09. > :04:11.on the Leave side, take control, take control? Yes, and the essence
:04:12. > :04:16.of great communication is delivering a very clear idea, and let's look at
:04:17. > :04:23.the Leave side, no question that the one message that the audience would
:04:24. > :04:26.take aways take control, and they seem to be getting some amends with
:04:27. > :04:32.the idea that this is all about immigration and losing control of
:04:33. > :04:39.our borders. -- some momentum. That is where they are fundamentally on
:04:40. > :04:43.winning ground. But Remain had two ideas, painting Boris Johnson out to
:04:44. > :04:50.be somebody who cannot be trusted, let's not forget we had three women
:04:51. > :04:58.on the Remain side, that was unique. Also talking to the ITV audience,
:04:59. > :05:03.which is more female than male. They are both trying to win support from
:05:04. > :05:09.the undecideds, so tried to portray Boris as someone you cannot trust,
:05:10. > :05:12.but Amber Rudd was saying, think about the economics, which is an
:05:13. > :05:17.important issue for women voters, and the other two were talking about
:05:18. > :05:22.the positives, in their view, for remaining in the EU. But Amber Rudd
:05:23. > :05:25.also joined in with the ganging up on Boris Johnson, you can accept
:05:26. > :05:31.Nicola Sturgeon and Angela Eagle going to attack, that is part of
:05:32. > :05:37.their job, but is it not surprising, following on from John Major's
:05:38. > :05:40.attack on Sunday, now Amber Rudd? It is a fair assumption that Downing
:05:41. > :05:44.Street has approved of these attacks, and one of the attacks is
:05:45. > :05:49.that it is not safe to go home in a car with Boris Johnson. The level of
:05:50. > :05:53.personal animus is now huge. And the main thing is that it is completely
:05:54. > :05:57.apolitical, it destroys the campaign of any notion of having something
:05:58. > :06:02.important at stake. I thought Remain did very badly in relation to that.
:06:03. > :06:06.Boris bashing might be fun, you might get cheap applause, but it is
:06:07. > :06:10.vicious in personality politics, and it makes Boris looked rather
:06:11. > :06:14.statesman-like that he does not reduce himself to either responding
:06:15. > :06:20.to applying same game. The irony is that it's likely backfires. There is
:06:21. > :06:23.another way of looking at that, which is they are kind to me did a
:06:24. > :06:28.bit of a sham campaign for Boris, saying that he does not really
:06:29. > :06:32.believe in this. But think about it, Remain are full of people who do not
:06:33. > :06:36.really believe in this, so they have got a note. That campaign is full of
:06:37. > :06:41.Eurosceptics from the Tory party who have wanted to be anti-EU for ever
:06:42. > :06:45.and suddenly Remainers and enthusiastic. The Labour Party is
:06:46. > :06:51.completely split, because the left wing instinct would be to get out of
:06:52. > :06:54.this union. We are told this is the biggest decision the British Beagle
:06:55. > :06:58.will take for at least a generation, so why would the British people care
:06:59. > :07:04.what Amber Rudd thinks about Boris Johnson? Surely they want to know,
:07:05. > :07:09.are we better off in or out? What is our future in the 21st century, in
:07:10. > :07:14.or out? I would say the idea was there to pick holes in Boris Johnson
:07:15. > :07:18.as a character, because the point about leaving is that he would
:07:19. > :07:23.probably be the leader of the country in that event over time, and
:07:24. > :07:27.it puts a doubt in people's mines, that would be their strategy.
:07:28. > :07:33.Because they think he may be Prime Minister. I understand that the
:07:34. > :07:39.Remain campaign's private polling, in terms of trust on this issue,
:07:40. > :07:45.Boris Johnson comes quite high. He does. They are trying to chip away
:07:46. > :07:48.at his credibility. If you are depending on Boris Johnson to tell
:07:49. > :07:52.you which way to vote and his credibility is shot, it is important
:07:53. > :07:56.strategically for the Remain campaign to do that. They are
:07:57. > :08:01.winning on the numbers on NHS and immigration, so that is what it was
:08:02. > :08:06.all about last night, in my opinion. It was interesting that the Leave
:08:07. > :08:10.side, although it was Boris Johnson and a Labour politician too, they
:08:11. > :08:15.seemed to be singing from the same song sheet more so than Remain. I
:08:16. > :08:21.didn't think they did a bad job, and I am for Brexit, but I have been
:08:22. > :08:25.very critical of a lot of the Leave campaign. I am not part of any
:08:26. > :08:30.official campaign, and they have driven me mad, to be honest, my
:08:31. > :08:36.side! I had two young colleagues who were in the audience, and they are
:08:37. > :08:39.undecided, right? What did they say? Veering towards remain, if I am
:08:40. > :08:44.frank. I have not ask them in detail. They thought that the Remain
:08:45. > :08:49.people treated them with contempt and were patronising, and they were
:08:50. > :08:52.furious with the Boris bashing. They felt that intelligence was insulted,
:08:53. > :08:56.and they came away more towards Brexit. They were genuinely young
:08:57. > :09:03.undecided people trying to work it out. Are they veering Remain? Brexit
:09:04. > :09:08.because of the way they were treated by Remain. It is interesting about
:09:09. > :09:13.the strategy advice, strategists are very good at giving advice, but they
:09:14. > :09:18.sometimes give it in a bubble without any sense of having the
:09:19. > :09:24.finger on the pulse of the people. We need to move on, we thank you for
:09:25. > :09:27.that. In two weeks' time, we shall know the result.
:09:28. > :09:29.And if you haven't had enough of watching the politicians
:09:30. > :09:32.being grilled on the EU - and we know you haven't -
:09:33. > :09:35.you can watch me interview Ukip leader Nigel Farage at 7.30
:09:36. > :09:43.The question for today - what are couples said to be
:09:44. > :09:46.putting off until after the EU referendum on the 23rd June?
:09:47. > :09:48.Is it booking their summer holiday, DIY, having children,
:09:49. > :09:51.or watching the latest series of Game Of Thrones?
:09:52. > :10:02.And later on in the show, Claire will give us the correct answer.
:10:03. > :10:08.The Labour Party is this morning attempting to ramp up its campaign
:10:09. > :10:10.to persuade voters they should vote to remain in the EU.
:10:11. > :10:13.And it sounds like there's still plenty to do.
:10:14. > :10:15.Last night, Shadow Home Secretary Andy Burnham warned a British exit
:10:16. > :10:18.was a "very real prospect". Here he is speaking to Newsnight.
:10:19. > :10:20.We've definitely been far too much Hampstead
:10:21. > :10:27.I think here we are, two weeks away from the very real prospect
:10:28. > :10:28.that Britain will vote for isolation.
:10:29. > :10:37.With reports that the party's pro-EU message is meeting with a pretty
:10:38. > :10:39.hostile reception on the doorstep, two well-known Labour MPs have today
:10:40. > :10:46.One is the veteran Dennis Skinner, the other John Mann,
:10:47. > :10:48.who says his colleagues at Westminster are
:10:49. > :10:55.when they find out how many Labour members will vote to leave.
:10:56. > :10:57.This morning, Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson,
:10:58. > :11:00.used a speech to try to persuade them otherwise.
:11:01. > :11:03.He warned that voting to leave could lead to ?18 billion
:11:04. > :11:10.Come the 24th of June, we face a double threat
:11:11. > :11:13.to our living standards if we vote to leave.
:11:14. > :11:16.A big black hole in the public finances, and an unfair Tory
:11:17. > :11:18.government that will make ordinary families pay the price
:11:19. > :11:40.He's correctly making clear, which I didn't, that the 18 billion figure
:11:41. > :11:43.is a combination of, he says, taxes, tax rises and spending cuts.
:11:44. > :11:45.Well, we're joined now by one Labour MP
:11:46. > :11:46.who is already backing the Leave campaign.
:11:47. > :11:54.I know it is difficult for you to be objective, but be honest, are you
:11:55. > :11:59.really sensing, on your Labour colleagues who are vote to remain,
:12:00. > :12:04.that getting the Labour vote is more difficult than they thought? Oh,
:12:05. > :12:08.absolutely, and I have felt that in the last month in particular, when I
:12:09. > :12:11.have gone out and around, and I think what a lot of my colleagues
:12:12. > :12:16.have been picking up on, I knew there would always be some MPs
:12:17. > :12:21.coming out, and we have still got one or two more, quite senior ones,
:12:22. > :12:25.but it is a feeling out there that all of this pier stuff has gone over
:12:26. > :12:31.their heads. They are fed up, they feel this is payback time for the
:12:32. > :12:35.way they have been ignored for years and years, and I genuinely do
:12:36. > :12:41.feel... Do you think the establishment mood is taking hold of
:12:42. > :12:43.those voting to leave? There is a feeling that nobody has listen to
:12:44. > :12:47.them, and they are really beginning to believe this is their one chance.
:12:48. > :12:50.Both sides are saying this is the most important decision they will
:12:51. > :12:54.take, and they are beginning to believe that. I saw it in my own
:12:55. > :12:59.patch, where last weekend, when I went out that are you are in central
:13:00. > :13:05.London. London is always different, a bit of a bubble, but one of my
:13:06. > :13:09.Labour estates, people were coming out, genuinely, and saying, we are
:13:10. > :13:12.with you, we want to leave. Afro-Caribbean is where saying that
:13:13. > :13:20.they understood the immigration thing, they understood that this is
:13:21. > :13:25.about getting rid of discrimination in immigration. -- Afro-Caribbeans
:13:26. > :13:31.were saying. If you win, are you not worried about the prospect of a
:13:32. > :13:36.Conservative government run by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove? I believe
:13:37. > :13:41.in democracy, and they have been elected... Not to make a government.
:13:42. > :13:48.There will be a new leader whatever happens, I cannot see David Cameron
:13:49. > :13:51.staying. The feeling among some of the Remainer MPs, they are not happy
:13:52. > :13:56.about the whole thing. I am not concerned. I think this idea that
:13:57. > :14:01.somehow they will immediately get rid of all trade union rights and so
:14:02. > :14:05.on, it is just nonsense, it really is nonsense. And, you know, I would
:14:06. > :14:12.rather be certain that we have a government we can get rid of, than
:14:13. > :14:17.leave it to the unelected EU. The slogan, take control, really does
:14:18. > :14:23.mean something. The defections are not all one way, Khalid Mahmood
:14:24. > :14:29.defected to Remain. He described the side you are on as, quote, trying to
:14:30. > :14:34.frighten people by concentrating on race and colour. I think it was a
:14:35. > :14:38.bit naughty of him to say that, because he joined up very early on,
:14:39. > :14:43.to be honest, did absolutely nothing, and we knew about a month
:14:44. > :14:47.ago that he was not with us anymore. We told him off a leaflet ages ago.
:14:48. > :14:52.It is that is you, it is not racist to say you want to control how many
:14:53. > :14:56.people come into your country. Look at the other democratic countries,
:14:57. > :15:03.they all have control, outside the EU, of who comes into their country.
:15:04. > :15:06.How is that racist? So many things are irritating, but workers will
:15:07. > :15:09.lose all control, lose all their rights, the implication is that
:15:10. > :15:14.ordinary working people in this country are beholden to the EU, and
:15:15. > :15:19.it is condescending, you know, your rights are the crumbs of some
:15:20. > :15:22.bureaucrat's table in Brussels. It is insulting people, and with the
:15:23. > :15:28.immigration thing, you insult an awful lot of people if you say, this
:15:29. > :15:32.is all about racism, isolation, xenophobia. People are not stupid,
:15:33. > :15:34.they are talking to each other and saying, I am pro-immigration but I
:15:35. > :15:41.support Brexit. A different point of view from the
:15:42. > :15:43.Labour Party. We're joined now
:15:44. > :15:45.by the Chuka Umunna. He, like most Labour MPs,
:15:46. > :15:47.is supporting a vote to remain, and he's in his
:15:48. > :15:58.constituency in South London. Welcome back to the programme. Do
:15:59. > :16:02.you agree with Andy Burnham that from your perspective, your side of
:16:03. > :16:06.the Remain campaign, you have been talking too much to Metropolitan
:16:07. > :16:11.London and not enough to Labour voters in the Midlands and the
:16:12. > :16:16.North? I think we need to speak to all Labour voters everywhere. I'm
:16:17. > :16:23.not a massive fan of this stereotype of people in London being a bunch of
:16:24. > :16:34.luvvies. I think these are your words, not mine! No, sure! I am sure
:16:35. > :16:40.you like a latter-day. In Lambeth, in this constituency, and Kate
:16:41. > :16:45.represents a constituency next door to me, and you have 40% of children
:16:46. > :16:50.growing up in poverty. The idea that everybody is having a party here is
:16:51. > :16:54.wrong. We need to appeal to all Labour voters. Can I say something
:16:55. > :16:58.about the immigration debate and the economy? I don't deny that
:16:59. > :17:02.immigration poses a challenge to a different communities. I think it is
:17:03. > :17:06.quite right that we look to do something about undercutting in the
:17:07. > :17:10.labour market by properly implementing the National Minimum
:17:11. > :17:13.Wage. It is right that people should contribute to our social security
:17:14. > :17:18.system before they take out, which they will have to do for at least
:17:19. > :17:28.four years. But the idea that the challenges that immigration presents
:17:29. > :17:31.will simply fall away if we leave the European Union, to perpetrate
:17:32. > :17:33.that, would be a lie and would further undermine people's trusting
:17:34. > :17:35.all of the different parties. One of the biggest challenges we face right
:17:36. > :17:39.now is a migration crisis. We have spoken about it before. That was
:17:40. > :17:44.caused not by what was happening in the EU, but what was happening
:17:45. > :17:49.primarily in Syria and the Middle East. That will not go away if we
:17:50. > :17:52.leave the European Union. Let's not forget, there are more people coming
:17:53. > :18:03.to the UK from outside the European Union than from inside. It is pretty
:18:04. > :18:07.much 50-50 now. But I don't want to get down to the details. I will be
:18:08. > :18:16.doing the details on my BBC interviews. My point is, are you not
:18:17. > :18:19.concerned that this message put articulately by yourself is not
:18:20. > :18:25.getting through to enough Labour voters? That is what John Mann seems
:18:26. > :18:32.to be saying and Andy Burnham. Doesn't that concern you?
:18:33. > :18:36.Absolutely. I am concerned about that. In London when we do speak to
:18:37. > :18:41.people and they understand our position is to stay in, and let's be
:18:42. > :18:45.clear, Kate Hoey, Dennis Skinner and John Mann are very much the
:18:46. > :18:51.minority. The overwhelming majority of Labour MPs want us to stay. Kate
:18:52. > :18:53.invited me to a debate at a run constituency party and
:18:54. > :19:00.overwhelmingly they want us to stay in. We have to make sure of our
:19:01. > :19:04.voters. People say, should Jeremy Corbyn be doing more? I always say
:19:05. > :19:09.you always want your striker to score more goals. We want him to do
:19:10. > :19:14.that between now and June 23. If we have the fallout that every
:19:15. > :19:18.reputable independent economic forecaster says there will be to our
:19:19. > :19:22.economy if we leave the European Union, it is above all, Labour
:19:23. > :19:29.voters, middle and lower income voters, who will be hit very hard.
:19:30. > :19:33.That's why Tom Watson and the team, who were presenting what would
:19:34. > :19:36.happen if we left, were right to point out the challenge there would
:19:37. > :19:40.be to the public finances. Who do the Tories usually make pay for
:19:41. > :19:44.that? They usually make our voters pay by taking away their benefits,
:19:45. > :19:52.introducing the bedroom tax are dismantling the NHS, tuition fees...
:19:53. > :19:57.Hold on. I think we will bring that lovely little speech to a halt for a
:19:58. > :20:00.second. I understand the argument. Why does John Mann, your Labour
:20:01. > :20:05.colleague, think of the Labour leadership will get a big shock at
:20:06. > :20:12.the number of Labour members and councillors voting to leave? Given
:20:13. > :20:16.the argument you just made, why does he think, why is there the prospect
:20:17. > :20:23.of Sony Labour voters thinking, we will vote to leave? That, I think,
:20:24. > :20:25.is primarily based on what is happening in his constituency. You
:20:26. > :20:33.would have two as Kim. I obviously disagree. The overwhelming majority
:20:34. > :20:37.of members want us to stay. I don't deny there are people like Kate and
:20:38. > :20:42.John Huh have a different point of view. But I come back to the central
:20:43. > :20:49.argument. If you care about what I care about, having a job, your
:20:50. > :20:52.rights at work, the climate change catastrophe, global poverty, I think
:20:53. > :20:57.we can amplify our ability to deal with those things being in the
:20:58. > :21:03.European Union as opposed to out. Are you worried you might lose? Yes,
:21:04. > :21:09.I am worried we might lose. I said so at the beginning. I was never one
:21:10. > :21:13.of those people who thought that either side was going to
:21:14. > :21:18.comfortably, really comfortably win this referendum. It will be a close
:21:19. > :21:23.fought contest. This is good for our democracy. We are having a fantastic
:21:24. > :21:26.debate. The TV debate last night was interesting and enriches our
:21:27. > :21:28.democracy. In the end the viewers are in charge. That is how democracy
:21:29. > :21:32.should be. Chuka Umunna, thank you. Now, tomorrow is the
:21:33. > :21:45.Queen's birthday. You know she watches this programme.
:21:46. > :21:47.It is our favourite programme. Wow! That is exciting. She will be busy
:21:48. > :21:49.today. It's her official birthday,
:21:50. > :21:50.of course, Events to celebrate
:21:51. > :21:54.are already under way, but it will also be marked
:21:55. > :21:58.with the annual announcement And as I haven't heard
:21:59. > :22:04.from the palace, I can only assume
:22:05. > :22:09.I've been overlooked again. I think it just got lost in the
:22:10. > :22:11.post. If you've ever wondered how
:22:12. > :22:14.the honours are actually handed out, then wonder no more -
:22:15. > :22:16.here's Mark Lobel. We had a great training session
:22:17. > :22:19.today, you guys done really well... This is Mike Pusey,
:22:20. > :22:23.a DJ known to his fans as CK Flash, the founder of this remarkable
:22:24. > :22:28.bike club - and now an MBE. Entrepreneur Mike was given
:22:29. > :22:39.the honour after he raised ?1.2 million for this BMX centre
:22:40. > :22:44.in Peckham, south-east London, inviting underprivileged kids
:22:45. > :22:48.off the streets away from gangs and crime, and turning them
:22:49. > :22:52.into cycling sensations. Mike has been teaching
:22:53. > :22:56.three-year-olds how to do this, Mike and his team of experts,
:22:57. > :23:00.including nutritionists and psychologists, have been
:23:01. > :23:03.training his youngsters for years. And unlike me, they have taken
:23:04. > :23:10.pole position in British, European and World Championships,
:23:11. > :23:13.with the Rio Olympics next. How did it feel when
:23:14. > :23:16.you got your MBE? I'm really happy to have it,
:23:17. > :23:19.and my parents and the family, the community, like I said,
:23:20. > :23:22.are very proud of me, will be looking to get
:23:23. > :23:27.the MBE in the future. Mike believes his award is
:23:28. > :23:30.as much for the community We took over the building,
:23:31. > :23:34.through employment, cooking lessons. We want to do a lot
:23:35. > :23:37.more with the kids. So you are constantly raising money
:23:38. > :23:39.and raising the bar. Does having the MBE help you,
:23:40. > :23:43.do you think, to do that? I think it does, because a lot
:23:44. > :23:46.of people that maybe didn't talk to me before, didn't
:23:47. > :23:48.kind of take it serious, So how did Mike
:23:49. > :23:53.actually land his MBE? A member of the public nominated
:23:54. > :23:57.Mike for one of these medals, until John Major's government
:23:58. > :24:02.reformed the system in the mid '80s to let ordinary people have
:24:03. > :24:08.a proper say over who gets them. This is the team that would have
:24:09. > :24:12.processed Mick's nomination, the Cabinet Office's Honours
:24:13. > :24:14.and Appointments Secretariat. And here is the man in charge
:24:15. > :24:17.of operations, Alex. Alex, how many nominations
:24:18. > :24:20.do you get a year? Well, we usually get about
:24:21. > :24:22.10,000 inquiries from members and that will translate
:24:23. > :24:25.into about 3000 nominations. Is it right that anybody
:24:26. > :24:28.in the public can nominate anybody? Yeah, absolutely, the system is open
:24:29. > :24:32.to absolutely everybody. The only thing the system doesn't
:24:33. > :24:35.support is self-nominations. We get a few of those, we're getting
:24:36. > :24:39.very good at spotting those. There's a simple nomination form
:24:40. > :24:43.on the website - gov.uk/honours. And all the nominations
:24:44. > :24:45.are then sent before nine independent
:24:46. > :24:49.selection committees. They make all the hard decisions
:24:50. > :24:51.and ultimate selections. The largest of those
:24:52. > :24:53.is the community, voluntary which is chaired by
:24:54. > :24:56.Dame Clare Tickell. It's not every day
:24:57. > :24:59.you get to meet a dame in the official archives
:25:00. > :25:01.room for UK honours. how the committee whittles
:25:02. > :25:07.down who gets the nod. We don't want people who've just
:25:08. > :25:10.been doing their job well. We actually want people
:25:11. > :25:12.who are making extraordinary contributions over
:25:13. > :25:15.and above their paid jobs, or sometimes their
:25:16. > :25:16.volunteering jobs. Ethnic minority communities like
:25:17. > :25:22.Mike's are still underrepresented. One of the biggest things
:25:23. > :25:25.is that they are not nominated. People in black and minority ethnic
:25:26. > :25:27.communities, They think, actually,
:25:28. > :25:33.this is something that they can't necessarily make inroads into,
:25:34. > :25:35.and that absolutely isn't true. Well, my dream of a knighthood
:25:36. > :25:38.might have to wait just a little bit longer,
:25:39. > :25:42.but tomorrow we will find out which hundreds of Brits have
:25:43. > :25:45.captured people's hearts and will be awarded one of these prestigious
:25:46. > :25:51.medals in the honours list. Now, are we raising
:25:52. > :25:56.'Generation Snowflake'? Recent controversies on university
:25:57. > :25:58.campuses in this country and in the United States have given
:25:59. > :26:01.rise to accusations that students these days are willing
:26:02. > :26:04.to take offence at even This year, the University
:26:05. > :26:08.of Oxford's Oriel College found itself at the centre of a broader
:26:09. > :26:11.cultural debate when students there complained about a statue
:26:12. > :26:16.of the imperialist Cecil Rhodes, who was one of the
:26:17. > :26:17.college benefactors. They argued that Mr Rhodes
:26:18. > :26:21.was a racist and a colonialist, and should no longer be honoured
:26:22. > :26:23.by the college. Let's take a look at
:26:24. > :26:49.some of the protests In putting his murderous colonial
:26:50. > :26:56.policies into practice, he committed a litany of crimes.
:26:57. > :26:58.CHEERING. Our guest of the day, Claire Fox,
:26:59. > :27:01.has written a book called I Find That Offensive!,
:27:02. > :27:03.arguing that younger generations in particular have
:27:04. > :27:06.become too thin-skinned. Joining her to discuss the issue
:27:07. > :27:22.is the writer and campaigner, Welcome. Should there are the almost
:27:23. > :27:28.no limits on the ability to give Offense? Is it a democratic right to
:27:29. > :27:32.be offensive? Yes. I am a free-speech absolutist. What I tried
:27:33. > :27:35.to understand the book was why there was a generation of fragility.
:27:36. > :27:40.Actually I do not think it is a kind of posture. I think young people, as
:27:41. > :27:47.a generational phenomena, are finding it harder to cope with
:27:48. > :27:52.things. There is an immediate instinct to ban, to silence, it
:27:53. > :27:57.slows down. I want to be heard. I found that when I was doing speeches
:27:58. > :28:02.that instead of the young, which I anticipated five silly fighting back
:28:03. > :28:05.and arguing with me, I was expecting to say -- was not expecting that
:28:06. > :28:10.they would say, you cannot say that. I wanted to understand that and what
:28:11. > :28:18.is -- that is what I try to explore. You have been on the end of some
:28:19. > :28:22.criticism. Does it get to you? It certainly gets to you. I would
:28:23. > :28:26.question the word offensive. When you are talking about offence, there
:28:27. > :28:31.is a right to be offensive. I don't think we can legislate against a
:28:32. > :28:35.fence because who decides what is offensive? Once you start allowing
:28:36. > :28:43.offensive speech to be banned, it is a cycle. For me I think there is a
:28:44. > :28:46.line of, if you are sending someone threats, threats to their bodily
:28:47. > :28:50.integrity, which is what I was getting, I do not call that
:28:51. > :28:57.offensive. I was not offended. I was terrified. That is a difference. I
:28:58. > :29:01.assume you would agree with that? My only hesitation in relation to this
:29:02. > :29:08.is, say for example the recent campaign that has been launched
:29:09. > :29:11.around the Internet, reclaim the Internet etc, the reason I get
:29:12. > :29:19.nervous is because suddenly what gets described as falling is a very
:29:20. > :29:24.broad category. -- trolling. Suddenly it goes from death threats
:29:25. > :29:29.to abuse. Often the abuse, by the way, is disagreement. I had an
:29:30. > :29:34.article in a newspaper yesterday. It was one of those Twitter storms. The
:29:35. > :29:37.thing was, people said that I broke the rules of the sisterhood by
:29:38. > :29:40.saying something about young women being particularly thin-skinned at
:29:41. > :29:45.the moment, which I am very concerned about. Twitter went mad.
:29:46. > :29:50.The thing that was interesting was they were accusing me of being the
:29:51. > :29:56.abusive person who was trolling. Suddenly I am on the receiving end.
:29:57. > :30:06.Can we agree that death threats are beyond abuse? Things are illegal. Or
:30:07. > :30:10.threatening violence? I agree that the term trolling has become far too
:30:11. > :30:16.broad and does a disservice to the people trying to fight against how
:30:17. > :30:18.women are sent death threats. What do you say to Claire's point that
:30:19. > :30:28.your generation is to thin-skinned? Putting aside death threats, but the
:30:29. > :30:33.general, I don't like this argument, you should not make it. I don't
:30:34. > :30:38.agree with that way of dealing with opinions you disagree with. I differ
:30:39. > :30:43.from Claire in that I understand the impetus, in that I think you would
:30:44. > :30:46.say you go by the line, sticks and stones can break my bones, but I
:30:47. > :30:50.disagree that words cannot hurt you, and I disagree that the way of
:30:51. > :30:54.dealing with the psychological damage that words can do is to stop
:30:55. > :30:59.them being said. Ultimately, what you want is to, for example, if you
:31:00. > :31:03.are fighting against misogyny, you want people to stop being
:31:04. > :31:06.misogynistic, rather than stopping them from saying it. That rides it
:31:07. > :31:12.underground and the views are not challenged. Why do think this is a
:31:13. > :31:17.problem? I think this is what you say in a book, particularly for
:31:18. > :31:21.young women? I think part of the reason for this is the kind of
:31:22. > :31:26.encouragement of identity politics and victim politics, and a certain
:31:27. > :31:30.brand of feminism, you know, the way that you gain most sympathy these
:31:31. > :31:34.days is to be a victim, and so there is a competition to be the most
:31:35. > :31:40.victim. Young women are sadly encouraged to do that on a range of
:31:41. > :31:44.things. And so, you know, you can see why, in the recent higher
:31:45. > :31:48.education policy Institute report on censorship on free speech on campus,
:31:49. > :31:52.they have actually said, well, increasing numbers of young people
:31:53. > :31:58.say there should be no platforming, and the majority of those are women.
:31:59. > :32:01.I am a fighter for women's liberation and women being strong,
:32:02. > :32:06.so it scares the hell out of me that they are becoming like that. When I
:32:07. > :32:10.was at university, it must have been 20 years ago now! When I was at
:32:11. > :32:14.university, universities were famous for being the places where you could
:32:15. > :32:19.say anything, that is what we valued. And also we had the time to
:32:20. > :32:22.do it. It seems now that universities are the places, with
:32:23. > :32:28.safe space campaigns, that what you can say is being curtailed. Is that
:32:29. > :32:32.just an impression, or is that what is happening? That is absolutely
:32:33. > :32:36.what is happening. I think the point about victimhood is really
:32:37. > :32:40.interesting, because it is almost like it comes out of the censorship
:32:41. > :32:44.movement that people are aware that, unless you can be the top victim,
:32:45. > :32:48.you are not going to be allowed to speak, because you are too
:32:49. > :32:52.privileged. And so it is like a vicious circle, and ultimately
:32:53. > :32:57.no-one will be allowed to speak. That is the danger, and I think that
:32:58. > :33:00.is what people are not seeing. It is interesting that more people who had
:33:01. > :33:04.been advocating and get banned themselves and suddenly realise they
:33:05. > :33:07.are on the wrong side of it. I have just remembered a phrase that was
:33:08. > :33:12.popular when I was at university, repressive tolerance, the
:33:13. > :33:16.authorities were so tolerant that they were really repressing us by
:33:17. > :33:21.being so tolerant, allowing us to say whatever we wanted! No chance of
:33:22. > :33:27.that now. There is always a danger, if you have a book that is trying to
:33:28. > :33:30.describe a generation in one way, that you are like a middle-aged
:33:31. > :33:37.woman whingeing about young people, right? I just want to point out...
:33:38. > :33:42.That is what middle-aged women are there for! I get it, and I am
:33:43. > :33:46.delighted, the people who have most enjoyed the book, from whom I have
:33:47. > :33:54.the most support, are under 27 or something, right? Are you going to
:33:55. > :33:57.universities to debate it? I am, and the people who do not like it are
:33:58. > :34:01.often be well-meaning PC social workers. So there you go. I don't
:34:02. > :34:04.like you talking about people like that! Thank you very much.
:34:05. > :34:06.It's time now to find out the answer to our quiz.
:34:07. > :34:12.Professor Michael Bruter of LSE discovered evidence that young
:34:13. > :34:24.Putting off booking the summer holiday, DIY, having children or
:34:25. > :34:29.watching Game Of Thrones? I wanted to be watching Game Of Thrones, but
:34:30. > :34:41.I suppose booking holidays. No, having children! How can you... ?!
:34:42. > :34:43.It must be true! The evidence shows and the experts say it must be true!
:34:44. > :34:45.We will even there. Coming up in a moment,
:34:46. > :34:49.it's our regular look at what's been going on
:34:50. > :34:51.in European politics. For now, it's time to say goodbye
:34:52. > :34:54.to my guest of the day, Claire Fox. So for the next half an hour we're
:34:55. > :34:58.going to be focussing on Europe. We'll be discussing the EU's
:34:59. > :35:00.proposals for a deal with countries in the Middle East and Africa,
:35:01. > :35:03.aimed at tackling the migrant crisis,
:35:04. > :35:04.the existing deal with Turkey, First, though, here's our guide
:35:05. > :35:08.to the latest from Europe The European Parliament
:35:09. > :35:16.agreed to set up an inquiry It's looking specifically
:35:17. > :35:20.at alleged violations of EU law by the European Commission
:35:21. > :35:23.and member states. MEPs accused Turkish politicians
:35:24. > :35:27.of undermining the rule of law by stripping
:35:28. > :35:31.the immunity of 138 MPs. It means parliamentarians
:35:32. > :35:33.critical of President Erdogan It will hardly do Turkey
:35:34. > :35:38.any favours in its bid to join the EU, especially
:35:39. > :35:40.after the Chancellor Turkey is a key ally,
:35:41. > :35:45.they are member of Nato, an organisation we on all sides
:35:46. > :35:47.of the campaign talk up. But is it going to be a member
:35:48. > :35:50.of the European Union? The Commission proposed new plans
:35:51. > :35:56.to tackle the migrant crisis by offering financial incentives
:35:57. > :35:58.to African and Middle Eastern countries to encourage them
:35:59. > :36:03.to stop people flowing into Europe. And time for a LOL - it looks like
:36:04. > :36:07.a smiley face or emoji, face but it's actually
:36:08. > :36:09.the new Slovak presidency logo. after Slovakia takes on the
:36:10. > :36:19.EU presidency on the 1st of July. And with us for the next 30 minutes,
:36:20. > :36:21.I've been joined by the Conservative MEP
:36:22. > :36:23.David Campbell Bannerman. He's supporting a vote to leave
:36:24. > :36:26.in the upcoming EU referendum. And by the Green MEP Jean Lambert,
:36:27. > :36:31.who is supporting Remain. Let's take a look at one of
:36:32. > :36:34.those stories in more detail, and that's the question
:36:35. > :36:38.of whether Turkey will ever join the EU,
:36:39. > :36:47.and if so, when. I would suggest to both of you that
:36:48. > :36:53.neither Remain Leave is totally accurate or honest in this. Let me
:36:54. > :36:57.come to the Leave, it is true, it is government policy that Turkey should
:36:58. > :37:01.join the EU at some stage. The Prime Minister is trying to kick it into
:37:02. > :37:07.the long grass, but even if the Government was putting all its
:37:08. > :37:12.effort behind Turkey to join, it is a long way off. It has been for some
:37:13. > :37:19.time, that is true, but it is the as brazen to have Turkey, and we are
:37:20. > :37:27.spending 1.8 billion on free access and funding. -- but it is the
:37:28. > :37:35.aspiration to have Turkey, and we are spending 1.8 billion on
:37:36. > :37:40.pre-accession funding. The process has been restarted and speeded up.
:37:41. > :37:49.That is fair enough, but on your side of the argument, it is not
:37:50. > :37:53.going to happen soon, but it is policy that Turkey should join at
:37:54. > :37:57.some stage, and this referendum is not for tomorrow or the next day -
:37:58. > :38:05.it is for a long while, so it is fair to raise that, is it not? ? It
:38:06. > :38:09.is if you are talking about enlargement of the European Union,
:38:10. > :38:14.but not as shorthand for something else. If Turkey were to join, there
:38:15. > :38:18.is a long process to go through, and certainly the current government,
:38:19. > :38:23.many of us consider, is going backwards in meeting the criteria.
:38:24. > :38:26.You mean the current Turkish government? The current Turkish
:38:27. > :38:33.government. Moving to a more Islamic... It is more repressive,
:38:34. > :38:38.not necessarily the fact that it is more Islamic. As you mentioned, what
:38:39. > :38:44.is happening to the immunity of people from the left-wing Kurdish
:38:45. > :38:49.party. So, yes, it is on the table at some point. I am assuming that,
:38:50. > :38:53.you know, given what the Government here has proposed in terms of future
:38:54. > :39:02.referenda, that would be a treaty change and a decision that is not on
:39:03. > :39:03.the table yet. And that a reasonable level of agreement, let's see if I
:39:04. > :39:05.can do better! The deal the EU struck with Turkey
:39:06. > :39:08.to stem the flow of migrants crossing into Greece seems
:39:09. > :39:10.to have been effective - But can and should
:39:11. > :39:14.that deal be repeated with other countries
:39:15. > :39:16.in Africa and the Middle East? The moment when hope turned
:39:17. > :39:23.to fear in May on the Med. This footage from the Italian navy
:39:24. > :39:25.was a chilling reminder of how Thousands have died attempting
:39:26. > :39:31.the journey to Europe since 2014, But dealing with and sorting
:39:32. > :39:39.through the influx of migrants has also created domestic political
:39:40. > :39:42.problems for Europe's political leaders after more than 200,000
:39:43. > :39:45.have arrived so far this year. The number of migrants arriving
:39:46. > :39:49.in Greece has dropped after the EU promised Turkey billions
:39:50. > :39:53.of pounds in aid for better sea and border controls,
:39:54. > :39:55.although the promise of visa-free travel for Turkish citizens
:39:56. > :39:58.within the Schengen zone continues On Tuesday, the European Commission
:39:59. > :40:05.announced the outline of a new ?50 billion deal
:40:06. > :40:08.with the Middle East The partnership plan proposes
:40:09. > :40:13.trade deals and more investment to stem the flow
:40:14. > :40:19.of migrants to the EU. Top of the list are Jordan
:40:20. > :40:23.and Lebanon, hosting 1.8 million Syrian refugees,
:40:24. > :40:25.as well as Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Mali and Ethiopia,
:40:26. > :40:27.countries migrants leave from or travel through
:40:28. > :40:31.to get to Europe. The key coastal state of Libya
:40:32. > :40:33.and Tunisia, where EU cash would bolster
:40:34. > :40:39.border and sea controls. And, somewhat controversially,
:40:40. > :40:41.cash for countries with poor humanitarian records,
:40:42. > :40:44.like Eritrea and Sudan, So often on the back foot
:40:45. > :40:49.during this migration crisis, EU leaders have been
:40:50. > :40:53.trying desperately hard to regain the initiative -
:40:54. > :40:57.now they think they have. We propose to use a mix of positive
:40:58. > :41:00.and negative incentives, to reward those countries
:41:01. > :41:02.willing to cooperate and to ensure that there are
:41:03. > :41:09.consequences for those who do not. This includes using
:41:10. > :41:12.our development and trade policies If this is the EU's big push
:41:13. > :41:17.on controlling migration, then bear in mind that this
:41:18. > :41:23.is not new money pledged, It relies on the ambition that
:41:24. > :41:29.member states will also match EU funding, and on the hope
:41:30. > :41:31.that private and public backers The proposals will require approval
:41:32. > :41:37.by EU governments and the EU Parliament, but one Eurosceptic MEP
:41:38. > :41:41.has already dismissed them. Saying that we should stabilise
:41:42. > :41:44.the countries of origin I mean, what are we going to do
:41:45. > :41:49.in the intervening 30 years? Definitely, the European Union
:41:50. > :41:51.should be opening its markets Probably the most immoral trade
:41:52. > :41:59.policy in the world at the moment is the EU's
:42:00. > :42:00.Common Agricultural Policy. It means that not only
:42:01. > :42:02.are producers, exporters in developing countries,
:42:03. > :42:05.denied Europe's markets, it means they then have to very
:42:06. > :42:08.often face unfair competition against subsidised
:42:09. > :42:11.EU produce at home. there is a moral dilemma
:42:12. > :42:15.for the EU leaders too. I think the European Union has found
:42:16. > :42:19.it's quite difficult to deal with the problem with
:42:20. > :42:22.the existing policies that it's got. So what it's doing, in effect,
:42:23. > :42:25.is trying to retrofit its existing policies to cope with the political
:42:26. > :42:28.problem that it hadn't anticipated. The problem is, how you move
:42:29. > :42:32.from a situation in which you have a group of countries which don't
:42:33. > :42:35.necessarily have the institutions, the rule of law and democracy,
:42:36. > :42:38.which looks and feels So with its latest plan
:42:39. > :42:45.to control migration, the EU finds itself under fire
:42:46. > :42:49.over its protectionist trade policies and questioned
:42:50. > :42:53.over how it will handle autocrats. There is no simple solution to what
:42:54. > :43:09.could be a decades-long problem. When you look at the scale of some
:43:10. > :43:16.of the problems facing the country is that we are talking about here,
:43:17. > :43:20.about nine of them, Ethiopia, Mali, Niger, Senegal, is this not just a
:43:21. > :43:24.drop in the ocean? I think it potentially is, in many respects,
:43:25. > :43:29.some of us think it is a drop in the ocean. And the other hand, it is at
:43:30. > :43:33.least an effort to try and do something, as was being said. But,
:43:34. > :43:39.you know, it has to go hand-in-hand with a set of other policy areas
:43:40. > :43:42.too, whether that is looking again at development aid and how
:43:43. > :43:45.effectively it is working. Certainly, issues about trade policy
:43:46. > :43:51.and what we are doing, what more can be done to help job creation in the
:43:52. > :43:54.country so that young people there have some opportunities, so they
:43:55. > :44:01.feel that their country is not broken. What is your take? Well, we
:44:02. > :44:08.have tried it with Turkey, bribing them, offering them trade deals,
:44:09. > :44:12.cash, 62 billion has been mentioned,... But that is not, with
:44:13. > :44:16.Turkey, it is not really geared at Turkish nationals, it is the almost
:44:17. > :44:22.3 million refugees who fled the war zone to go to Turkey - it is a big
:44:23. > :44:27.problem, but a different problem. The approach is quite similar, and
:44:28. > :44:33.the press release says that, it is quite similar to Turkey. My worry is
:44:34. > :44:37.that, as Oxfam have complained, this could go to some very nasty
:44:38. > :44:42.governments with very poor human rights records, and is there any
:44:43. > :44:46.guarantee it will work? That is an issue in Eritrea, the Sudan, where
:44:47. > :44:52.human rights are appalling, that is why people are fleeing in the first
:44:53. > :44:56.place. It is in Eritrea where it is compulsory to join the army and so
:44:57. > :45:01.on. There are heavy penalties. A horrible existence. But should we,
:45:02. > :45:06.because in the end this is government to government aid, we are
:45:07. > :45:10.not really just bolstering the existing regimes with this money?
:45:11. > :45:22.I think there is a risk of that. It is important when we look at a that
:45:23. > :45:26.more NGOs would work on the ground and you would circumvent the
:45:27. > :45:28.government. Other places with stable governments, it would be direct
:45:29. > :45:35.budget support within the government. That is what we do in
:45:36. > :45:38.places like Bangladesh. Yes, there are still questions but it is a
:45:39. > :45:42.different sort of thing. The important part of it is whatever you
:45:43. > :45:48.are doing, you still keep the human rights agenda on the table. You do
:45:49. > :45:52.not shut your eyes to that. I assume you agree with the point that one of
:45:53. > :46:01.the reasons these countries, a lot of them agricultural, are not helped
:46:02. > :46:05.by the protectionism that goes with the common agricultural policy? I
:46:06. > :46:11.fully agree with Dan. It is disgraceful. Many of these countries
:46:12. > :46:22.find it hard to compete. You are dumping cheap food. It is a two
:46:23. > :46:29.process, you say? Yes. Do you agree with that? It is a criticism the
:46:30. > :46:34.Green Party has made for a while. It is interesting to see who is getting
:46:35. > :46:40.on board! There is no European assistance to help countries reach
:46:41. > :46:44.the standards, the hygiene standards and the like, for food. There is
:46:45. > :46:48.also a question in terms of the development. We are looking at what
:46:49. > :46:52.you can do to add value in the country of origin. That has when the
:46:53. > :47:00.tariffs increase though for the moment. The EU then put a higher
:47:01. > :47:06.tariff. This is where the everything but arms trade procedures for the
:47:07. > :47:09.poorest countries in the world has been extremely important in that. In
:47:10. > :47:17.terms of offering support in how they develop not only their markets,
:47:18. > :47:22.the EU, but internally. The idea of a blue card system for the EU is
:47:23. > :47:27.roughly based on the green card system in Iraq. Good, bad,
:47:28. > :47:34.indifferent? It has not been used much today. It has not been
:47:35. > :47:41.successful. Is it worth a try? Worth a try. Worth the right sort of
:47:42. > :47:46.direction. By the way, if we leave the European Union, we will be
:47:47. > :47:51.outside the customs union, therefore we could cut tariffs on a lot of
:47:52. > :47:52.these developing countries. We will see how that goes down with British
:47:53. > :47:54.voters. If the UK votes to remain in the UK
:47:55. > :47:58.on the 23rd of June, how Will they be keen to help us achieve
:47:59. > :48:02.David Cameron's renegotiation, or will they perhaps be
:48:03. > :48:06.a bit miffed? And if we leave, will they want
:48:07. > :48:09.to send a message by putting the UK through the wringer,
:48:10. > :48:12.or strike a new relationship with us European politicians and officials
:48:13. > :48:17.try to avoid talking about it too much, but here's
:48:18. > :48:25.what a few have said. German Finance Minister Wolfgang
:48:26. > :48:27.Schauble reportedly told his UK counterpart, George Osborne,
:48:28. > :48:30.that his country would be tough in what he described in an interview
:48:31. > :48:33.as "years of the most And French economy minister,
:48:34. > :48:41.Emmanuel Macron, has warned Britain would be "completely killed"
:48:42. > :48:45.in trade talks if the country votes "We have to be very clear that
:48:46. > :48:50.Brexit will have But Leave campaigners argue
:48:51. > :48:55.that the UK would "continue to thrive" even outside
:48:56. > :48:59.the EU's single market. And leaving the EU would also let
:49:00. > :49:02.the UK take back control over its ability to trade more
:49:03. > :49:16.freely with the rest of the world. Plus, they argue, the European
:49:17. > :49:22.project is a steam roller and that we remain in, Britain will be
:49:23. > :49:27.flattened. I suppose the difficult thing is, until it happens we don't
:49:28. > :49:34.know. Of course European politicians at the moment want us to stay. They
:49:35. > :49:40.say it will be tough if we leave. If they said, vote to leave and you can
:49:41. > :49:46.have what you want... I am on the trade committee. We are doing trade
:49:47. > :49:51.deals over the world. Canada is held up a bit. We are doing Australia and
:49:52. > :49:56.New Zealand. India. The model of running your own country and getting
:49:57. > :50:00.a great trade deal with the EU is proven in that sense. Except nobody
:50:01. > :50:06.will ever have been in our position if we vote to leave, that is unique.
:50:07. > :50:11.Greenland is about the closest. That is a stretch. Did -- it makes it
:50:12. > :50:14.easier to do a trade deal in the sense that we are already compliant
:50:15. > :50:19.now because we are members of the EU. We do not have the tariffs to
:50:20. > :50:24.negotiate. We don't have that problem. What is your honest
:50:25. > :50:31.assessment to it is most impossible to tell, I know. Supposedly voted to
:50:32. > :50:42.leave that smacks of those we vote to leave, Article 50 is ignited.
:50:43. > :50:46.What would the mood be like in the European capital is dealing with
:50:47. > :50:53.this? I think it would be mixed. There would be a question of...
:50:54. > :50:58.There are strong relationships that have been fought over years. There
:50:59. > :51:02.are obviously trade implications for the European Union. However, given
:51:03. > :51:06.what we know about the rise of the hard right in countries such as
:51:07. > :51:10.France and the like, I think there would also be a very strong desire
:51:11. > :51:14.to have a clear message that of other countries want to go down this
:51:15. > :51:23.road, this is not going to be sunshine ever after and almost no
:51:24. > :51:26.change. In case it encourages them. The other key issue will also be the
:51:27. > :51:32.very vexed question of free movement. And that if we decide, and
:51:33. > :51:37.we don't quite know who will be tickling -- doing the negotiation
:51:38. > :51:41.from the UK, your party will sort that, but if that is going to be a
:51:42. > :51:45.key issue, I think a lot of other things become very difficult. You
:51:46. > :51:51.will then be very grateful for the work I have been doing on EU
:51:52. > :51:59.migration policy. To find out what your rights are. We are only being
:52:00. > :52:05.hypothetical, but if we are out of the EU, will be not be confronted by
:52:06. > :52:11.an existential choice? You can have free movement within the EU and you
:52:12. > :52:20.can have the single market. But you cannot pick and choose. This is a
:52:21. > :52:27.fallacy we have heard from Remain. Only four out of 140 trade
:52:28. > :52:31.agreements the EU has, as free movement. Two of those, Switzerland
:52:32. > :52:36.and Lichtenstein, they are getting rid of freedom of movement.
:52:37. > :52:40.Switzerland does not know what to do. The EU is now even refusing to
:52:41. > :52:47.talk because they say, look, access to the single market? You have to
:52:48. > :52:50.give the borders open. The thing that people do not realise,
:52:51. > :52:55.including President Obama, is that we have a guaranteed rules -based
:52:56. > :53:00.deal which is non-negotiable. We have already signed a treaty. It is
:53:01. > :53:05.the same relationship the EU has with the US at the moment, Canada
:53:06. > :53:08.and India. There is a fallback position. What you were talking
:53:09. > :53:15.about is a better trade deal on top, which all of us want. The former
:53:16. > :53:18.head of the German CBI says, of course there will be a trade deal.
:53:19. > :53:27.They all say that, they don't want us to leave. Let's see what the
:53:28. > :53:29.conditions are. We will have to find that out.
:53:30. > :53:32.Now, Malta is the smallest and most densely populated EU member state.
:53:33. > :53:34.It's got a population about the size of Bristol.
:53:35. > :53:37.So what's been the effect of 12 years of EU membership on this
:53:38. > :54:08.Here's Adam with the latest in our series, meet the neighbours.
:54:09. > :54:20.It's like Game of Thrones meets the boat race. This is Malta's Freedom
:54:21. > :54:25.Day bank holiday regatta when crews from the Valletta harbour face each
:54:26. > :54:36.other in an audio of rowing, falling in and I think swearing. Hi, Andy.
:54:37. > :54:40.Things are more genteel with Andy. Like a lot of the people on these
:54:41. > :54:45.islands, he is part Maltese Cummer Park British and he loves the Royal
:54:46. > :54:50.family. In fact, he has had that Prince William on the back of his
:54:51. > :54:56.water taxi. I got and interests -- a letter from Buckingham Palace saying
:54:57. > :55:02.how much he enjoyed the trip. It is one of my greatest treasures. There
:55:03. > :55:09.are bits of bridges and over the place. Do we even have these any
:55:10. > :55:12.more? Malta is one of three EU countries that are in the
:55:13. > :55:19.Commonwealth along with the UK and Cyprus. This is a country with half
:55:20. > :55:25.a million people. It is rare that we have the occasion to sit around the
:55:26. > :55:30.same table with economic superpower is not coming from Europe. Without
:55:31. > :55:37.such a platform it would be extremely difficult for smaller, or
:55:38. > :55:42.even micro-states, to put forward their arguments, which are
:55:43. > :55:47.essentially existential on whether they survive or not. Right now,
:55:48. > :55:51.Malta chose the Commonwealth and next year will hold the rotating
:55:52. > :56:00.presidency of the EU at the same time. Jackpot! You would be amazed
:56:01. > :56:08.at the sort of interest that there is amongst European countries to get
:56:09. > :56:11.to know what makes this organisation, -- called the
:56:12. > :56:14.Commonwealth tick. It is very difficult to find one other
:56:15. > :56:21.organisation worldwide which has such a diverse composition. Well, it
:56:22. > :56:25.has its problems, so we are trying, during our time in the presidency of
:56:26. > :56:31.the Commonwealth, to to put forward the issue of say, gay rights. The
:56:32. > :56:34.regatta is over. It is clear that membership of the Commonwealth and
:56:35. > :56:39.the European Union helps Malta to punch above its weight. It trades
:56:40. > :56:48.much more with the EU, suggesting that is the more powerful pairing.
:56:49. > :56:55.Add in Malta. I've never been to Malta. You have. It is a really
:56:56. > :57:01.interesting place with masses of history. Really, really. For them,
:57:02. > :57:05.being of the table is really important, just as being at the
:57:06. > :57:10.table for us is going to be important. Their future they see
:57:11. > :57:15.with the European Union. A small place like Malta can feel that it
:57:16. > :57:22.stayed as a troll is enhanced because it is in the European Union.
:57:23. > :57:28.You have been there as well. Yes, I have. It is a beautiful place. They
:57:29. > :57:34.took a huge pounding during the war from the Nazis? Proportionally the
:57:35. > :57:41.highest in Europe and the world. Very brave people. A lot of history.
:57:42. > :57:46.I'm a great fan of Malta. I think there is a bit of a contest between
:57:47. > :57:52.its British history and the EU, actually. There is not a sign it
:57:53. > :57:57.wants to leave? No. It was a close-run vote at the time but that
:57:58. > :58:02.has been resolved. Do think it is pretty settled within the EU? Yes,
:58:03. > :58:10.it has settled within the European Union. It has a voice. It is the
:58:11. > :58:16.seat of the European asylum support office now. Kind of the front line
:58:17. > :58:21.of the Mediterranean. Very much so. Therefore it really feels that the
:58:22. > :58:25.solution to problems around migration, climate, whatever, are
:58:26. > :58:29.very much in the European Union. They will not follow Britain if we
:58:30. > :58:35.did leave? No, we might follow them though, because they're very
:58:36. > :58:40.crowded. We might be as crowded as Malta.
:58:41. > :58:45.Fans of the Game of Thrones may have noticed that some of the scenes
:58:46. > :58:51.there are shot in Malta. The non-rainy bits. The rainy bits are
:58:52. > :59:22.in Northern Ireland. That's it for now. Thanks for joining us. Bye-bye.
:59:23. > :59:24.discover there's more than the air beneath the wings