:00:37. > :00:38.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.The Remain Campaign wheel out the big guns, clearing the desks
:00:42. > :00:44.for a set-piece speech from Gordon Brown as they attempt
:00:45. > :00:49.to shore up Labour support for staying in the EU.
:00:50. > :00:51.The Leave Campaign focuses on claims that officials have been
:00:52. > :00:56.considering granting visa-free travel to the UK for Turkish
:00:57. > :01:00.citizens, with one Cabinet minister Priti Patel suggesting 100,000 extra
:01:01. > :01:06.migrants will come to the UK if Turkey joins the EU.
:01:07. > :01:10.MPs insist the former boss of BHS Sir Philip Green must answer
:01:11. > :01:11.questions in parliament about his role in the
:01:12. > :01:18.We'll hear from select committee chairman Frank Field.
:01:19. > :01:20.And if you're fed up with blue-on-blue arguments
:01:21. > :01:22.over the EU referendum, stay tuned for a bit
:01:23. > :01:24.of green-on-green, as we hear the green party arguments
:01:25. > :01:38.And with us for the whole of the programme today,
:01:39. > :01:41.the former chair of the Public Accounts Committee,
:01:42. > :01:43.the Labour MP and Remain supporter Margaret Hodge,
:01:44. > :01:46.of the Public Administration Committee, the Conservative MP
:01:47. > :01:56.So, less than two weeks to go before referendum day
:01:57. > :01:59.and the two campaigns are pulling out all the stops.
:02:00. > :02:02.The Leave campaign is focusing on immigration and the possibility
:02:03. > :02:07.of visa-free travel for Turkish citizens,
:02:08. > :02:09.while the Remain campaign are handing Gordon Brown
:02:10. > :02:12.the spotlight in an attempt to shore-up Labour voter support
:02:13. > :02:19.We'll discuss immigration in a moment.
:02:20. > :02:22.look at what the former Labour Prime Minister
:02:23. > :02:25.Gordon Brown is making a speech this afternoon,
:02:26. > :02:30.a vote to remain would allow the UK to champion five key policies
:02:31. > :02:35.when it assumes the presidency of the EU in 2017.
:02:36. > :02:39.The former PM says there could be EU-wide reforms that
:02:40. > :02:43.resulted in 500,000 new jobs in the UK
:02:44. > :02:49.He says a UK EU presidency could also improve living standards
:02:50. > :02:54.through energy price cuts and action on environmental policy,
:02:55. > :02:57.and that an EU strategy could be pursued to crack down
:02:58. > :03:05.Mr Brown says workers on zero-hours contracts could have protections
:03:06. > :03:12.and that greater co-operation on cross-border policy could help
:03:13. > :03:16.relieve pressure on public services in areas with high levels
:03:17. > :03:22.Speaking this morning, the leader of the Labour In For Britain
:03:23. > :03:24.campaign, Alan Johnson, insisted Labour was fully behind
:03:25. > :03:33.We have struggled to get into the media and I don't
:03:34. > :03:40.A story of unity is less interesting than a story of disunity and Cabinet
:03:41. > :03:44.colleagues knocking seven bells out of each other.
:03:45. > :03:48.And we've struggled, frankly, to break into that blue-on-blue.
:03:49. > :03:50.As I mentioned, we've been making this positive case for Europe
:03:51. > :03:57.We haven't had the kind of coverage and a Loughborough University study
:03:58. > :04:06.shows starkly that Labour representation in the media, 4-6%?
:04:07. > :04:12.That was Alan Johnson. Why has it taken so long for the Labour Party
:04:13. > :04:15.to realise that many of its core supporters particularly in northern
:04:16. > :04:19.constituencies are either voting to leave the EU or will stay at home? I
:04:20. > :04:23.think there's always been concerned about immigration, and what I'm
:04:24. > :04:27.distressed about and I hope Bernard can come back on it, I'm up for a
:04:28. > :04:32.conversation on immigration, I've been open to it for the last ten
:04:33. > :04:39.years or so. But what I do object to is that this referendum on Europe is
:04:40. > :04:42.being turned into a referendum on immigration and I think what you are
:04:43. > :04:47.seeing is that I'm afraid of those people who want us to withdraw from
:04:48. > :04:50.Europe are grasping at this straw, a really important issue to my
:04:51. > :04:55.constituents, and people up and down the country, and trying to turn that
:04:56. > :05:01.into the main issue. But you do admit... The one thing I was going
:05:02. > :05:05.to say, Bernard, I hate false promises. I just hate it. People out
:05:06. > :05:10.there alone with it and that's why people are moving away from politics
:05:11. > :05:14.and distrusting politicians and this false promise you're somehow going
:05:15. > :05:19.to magically cut through issues on migration when they get out of
:05:20. > :05:24.Europe is simply a false promise. Answer that first but what you say
:05:25. > :05:28.to that? I don't think anybody saying there was a magic wand but
:05:29. > :05:31.what we do know is you can't control migration from the EU unless you
:05:32. > :05:36.leave the EU. David Cameron stood up in front of the Conservative
:05:37. > :05:39.conference and said he was going to address that in Europe, he won't
:05:40. > :05:43.take no for an answer and there was absolutely no reform on the freedom
:05:44. > :05:48.of movement in the EU. The only way to address that is to Vote Leave.
:05:49. > :05:54.The idea that this is some kind of straw in the wind and irrelevant to
:05:55. > :05:57.the debate, this referendum is about who governs and the fact is, the
:05:58. > :06:01.British government and the British Parliament cannot govern our borders
:06:02. > :06:05.with regard to European migration. I'm going to stop you there. We are
:06:06. > :06:09.going to talk about immigration in a moment but you set out your stores
:06:10. > :06:12.on this issue of immigration which we will deal with in a few minutes.
:06:13. > :06:19.Gordon Brown is promising many things. We just outlined them, jobs,
:06:20. > :06:22.cutting energy prices. He's not in a position to promise anything. He's a
:06:23. > :06:27.former Prime Minister and we don't have a Labour government. What will
:06:28. > :06:30.his intervention be? Here's someone who has a lot of credibility on the
:06:31. > :06:36.international stage and what he did in the 2008 economic shock was
:06:37. > :06:38.absolutely stunningly wonderful in working with international
:06:39. > :06:44.colleagues, and he is setting out a positive agenda. I go to my
:06:45. > :06:48.constituents every week and I held coffee afternoons in a ward by ward
:06:49. > :06:51.bases and when the campaign started, they were quite interested. Last
:06:52. > :06:57.week, when I said we should talk about Europe, everybody says, oh no,
:06:58. > :07:01.and they want to talk about local issues. I think they have been
:07:02. > :07:05.turned off by the negativity, the false promises, the exaggeration on
:07:06. > :07:09.both sides and what Gordon is trying to do today is that a positive
:07:10. > :07:15.agenda of how we can use Europe to tackle some of the very tricky
:07:16. > :07:20.things. Here's a politician and can make statements and hopefully those
:07:21. > :07:24.us who leave will then grasp the opportunity to change the world in
:07:25. > :07:29.the way he has done. I think infrastructure and develop it is
:07:30. > :07:31.really important. I think getting a European wide response to the
:07:32. > :07:35.pressures that come from migration is important for size think working
:07:36. > :07:41.on the environment is hugely important. Do you accept that Labour
:07:42. > :07:49.has not been very present in this campaign in terms of the Remain
:07:50. > :07:53.side? Whose fault is that? Yes, it's partly our fault and it's partly the
:07:54. > :07:58.focus has been on the blue split. If this is the week in which we are now
:07:59. > :08:02.focusing on the Labour Party coming forward, setting a positive agenda,
:08:03. > :08:05.thank goodness. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonald could have
:08:06. > :08:09.done more? I think they could have come out early and do more but they
:08:10. > :08:15.are out now and other people are out there, Alan Johnson, at last, some
:08:16. > :08:18.women out there. There's been hardly any women in this campaign the
:08:19. > :08:26.Cooper, Harriet Harman, talking about the benefits of Europe. And
:08:27. > :08:33.the danger which could occur, the risks we could take if we vote
:08:34. > :08:36.Brexit. One Labour MP said to me in her constituency, a northern
:08:37. > :08:39.constituency with white working-class supporters, they've
:08:40. > :08:43.not had a Labour message, they don't know what it is and when they hear
:08:44. > :08:48.it, they don't like it. Out come back to this game. I think what has
:08:49. > :08:52.happened now, I'm sorry, Bernard, that's my view, in desperation, too
:08:53. > :08:57.many people have outrageously exploited the very complex issue of
:08:58. > :09:02.immigration with a simplistic answer, get out of Europe, and
:09:03. > :09:06.suddenly all the challenges we face around immigration, that is just not
:09:07. > :09:10.true. Let's have a series discussion about immigration. When I talk to my
:09:11. > :09:15.constituents, and I say to them, but is a false prospectus, they come
:09:16. > :09:18.back to immigration and I can understand why, if you want to win
:09:19. > :09:23.your vote for that what you do but I don't dig at a good way to do
:09:24. > :09:26.politics and I don't like it. What about Gordon Brown, he did something
:09:27. > :09:30.similar in the Scottish independence referendum and in the end, maybe
:09:31. > :09:35.partly because of him, the people of Scotland voted to stay within the
:09:36. > :09:40.union. How important is his intervention? David Cameron and
:09:41. > :09:45.George Osborne only resorted Gordon Brown because they were desperate
:09:46. > :09:48.and I think they are desperate now. There's blue on blue excuse, we
:09:49. > :09:53.could have red on red, ask Frank Field what he's been saying about
:09:54. > :09:56.immigration, they have been saying Labour MPs saying the same thing at
:09:57. > :10:01.immigration as the rest of the other campaigners. The real problem the
:10:02. > :10:04.Labour Party have is this a sensation amongst many colleagues
:10:05. > :10:07.but you're not really representing your voters because they are the
:10:08. > :10:12.people hit by this tide of very cheap labour coming in from Eastern
:10:13. > :10:18.Europe which is completely unchecked for the why haven't wages gone up in
:10:19. > :10:22.this recovery since 2008 banking crisis? Because there's an unlimited
:10:23. > :10:28.supply of cheap labour and we've had masses of it. Answer that and then
:10:29. > :10:34.we move on. We are much more united. Those Labour MPs. What about
:10:35. > :10:39.supporters, Margaret Hodge? You'd not squared up to the issue of
:10:40. > :10:44.immigration with them? I have been talking about immigration since the
:10:45. > :10:47.BNP won 12 seats in Barking and Dagenham 2006. I think I understand
:10:48. > :10:52.the issue as people feel it and I think what is so deeply unfair,
:10:53. > :10:58.Bernard, you promise somehow that you will cut the numbers yet,
:10:59. > :11:02.yesterday on the Andrew Marr show, Nigel Farage, where would you cut
:11:03. > :11:06.the numbers? Will you allow families to come together? Will you stop the
:11:07. > :11:11.Spanish and Portuguese nurses in my local hospital coming here? Of
:11:12. > :11:14.course not. Will he 's top universities recruiting students
:11:15. > :11:19.open air? Of course not. Will you kill a tourism industry? Of course
:11:20. > :11:25.not. Stop making false promises and start addressing the issue. Let me
:11:26. > :11:31.speak. People in my constituency feel the pressures of immigration
:11:32. > :11:35.and school places, hospital places, start investing there. Let Bernard
:11:36. > :11:41.answer for that what level would you like to see it coming down to? David
:11:42. > :11:46.Cameron said we should not have EU migrants coming up the mess the job
:11:47. > :11:51.to go to. That was one of his negotiation things. Most of them
:11:52. > :11:59.have. Gordon Brown said British jobs for British workers. If it's 184,000
:12:00. > :12:03.against 88,000, in terms of migrants from within the EU and those from
:12:04. > :12:05.outside, you would increase the ones who come from the outside which
:12:06. > :12:12.means they would still be similar levels? It's not about deciding what
:12:13. > :12:18.the immigration policy should be but this... Let me finish, this is about
:12:19. > :12:22.making British members of Parliament accountable for what immigration
:12:23. > :12:27.policy is decided instead of being imposed by the EU. Let's go on to
:12:28. > :12:30.immigration and Turkey has loomed large over the referendum campaign.
:12:31. > :12:33.Will the country ever join the European Union - and if it
:12:34. > :12:34.did, what would that mean for immigration?
:12:35. > :12:37.It is a debate that reared its head again yesterday,
:12:38. > :12:38.with new revelations about what the repercussions
:12:39. > :12:41.of the deal between the EU and Turkey over Syrian
:12:42. > :12:44.Leaked documents from the UK Embassy in Turkey raised
:12:45. > :12:47.the possibility of visa-free travel for "special passport holders"
:12:48. > :12:54.That usually applies to civil servants and their family members.
:12:55. > :13:00.The document was sent in response to the EU deal with Turkey allowing
:13:01. > :13:05.visa-free travel to inside Europe's Schengen area,
:13:06. > :13:08.of which the UK is not a member, in return for accepting
:13:09. > :13:13.Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond and Home Secretary Theresa May said
:13:14. > :13:15.any suggestion of changes to the visa rules was
:13:16. > :13:23.That didn't stop Justice Secretary and Leave campaigner Michael Gove
:13:24. > :13:27.claiming yesterday that this was yet more evidence that the UK
:13:28. > :13:31.was "actively working" towards Turkey's EU entry,
:13:32. > :13:33.something the Prime Minister David Cameron dismissed
:13:34. > :13:36.as a "complete red herring", saying there "is no prospect of
:13:37. > :13:43.But Migration Watch today released estimates that if Turkey joined
:13:44. > :13:48.the EU, then around 100,000 Turkish migrants could head to Britain
:13:49. > :13:50.a year, with total net migration under those circumstances
:13:51. > :14:03.And Alp Mehmet from Migration Watch joins us now.
:14:04. > :14:08.Let's just put Turkey to one side for a moment. Your forecast for the
:14:09. > :14:15.next 20 years is that net migration will be around 250,000, 60% of it
:14:16. > :14:20.coming from the EU. That is of course lower than current levels of
:14:21. > :14:24.migration, isn't it? It is and we are assuming that there will be some
:14:25. > :14:33.impact from measures that are applied as we move ahead, but,
:14:34. > :14:37.looking at what might happen in a low scenario and comparing that with
:14:38. > :14:44.a high scenario, we have gone through the middle and said that it
:14:45. > :14:51.will be around 265,000 net. That is the figure of fact that the Office
:14:52. > :14:56.for National Statistics is also working on. The use that as their
:14:57. > :15:04.high net migration scenario, so it's not so outlandish and that,
:15:05. > :15:10.effectively, means it leads to around 500,000 people a year
:15:11. > :15:14.additional to our population largely driven by migration. That's why it
:15:15. > :15:24.needs to be addressed. It is 330,000 or around that and you
:15:25. > :15:30.are talking about a significantly lower number. If Turkey does join
:15:31. > :15:34.the EU over the next 20 years, let's say, your report suggests around
:15:35. > :15:39.100,000 Turks would head to the UK every year. How do you calculate
:15:40. > :15:47.that figure? We looked at what happened with remaining ins, with
:15:48. > :16:00.Polish people, for example, where we made some forecasts in 2004. -- with
:16:01. > :16:03.remaining in people. -- Romanian. We used the same methodology. Week
:16:04. > :16:07.unpaid salary levels, the number of people already here, the Turkish
:16:08. > :16:13.diaspora, according to the then Turkish Prime Minister, there are
:16:14. > :16:17.around 400,000 who already. Taking these factors into account, we think
:16:18. > :16:23.around 100,000 a year, once they are fully in, is not an unreasonable
:16:24. > :16:26.figure. Alp Mehmet, thank you very much. Bernard Jenkin, David Cameron
:16:27. > :16:32.has described Turkey as a red herring in this debate. Is he right?
:16:33. > :16:35.He has flip-flopped on this. When he has been with the Turkish president,
:16:36. > :16:40.he is saying how he is going to pave the way from Ankara to Brussels and
:16:41. > :16:44.then he's saying, not until the year 3000. It's a bit difficult to note
:16:45. > :16:50.it took it is government policy for Turkey to join the EU. It is but
:16:51. > :16:54.Wendy of thing Turkey will join the EU in current circumstances? The
:16:55. > :16:58.current assumption is that Turkey would join sometime in the 2020s and
:16:59. > :17:01.the current restrictions on Turks would be lifted during the late
:17:02. > :17:06.2020s. That doesn't seem unreasonable. Why did you put a
:17:07. > :17:10.poster out saying Turkey is joining the EU? Because there is a process
:17:11. > :17:15.which Turkey is already engaged with which is about joining the EU. But
:17:16. > :17:19.saying Turkey is joining the EU sound like it will happen next week.
:17:20. > :17:22.Are we going to have another referendum before Turkey joins the
:17:23. > :17:26.EU if we stay in? This is the only referendum we are going to get. If
:17:27. > :17:31.we don't want to be in an EU with Turkey, you have to Vote Leave. What
:17:32. > :17:34.is the likelihood of Turkey joining the EU at all? Their first
:17:35. > :17:38.application was made in 1987 and you would have to have the say so and
:17:39. > :17:41.approval of the 28 member state of the European council and you know,
:17:42. > :17:45.and everyone knows, that large number of those countries will never
:17:46. > :17:50.agree to it. But it is the policy of the British Government for Turkey to
:17:51. > :17:54.join the EU. But do you accept that people like France, Germany will
:17:55. > :17:57.have access to? EU history is littered with assurances of things
:17:58. > :18:02.that would blow the happen and there may happen. I remember John Major
:18:03. > :18:05.saying he didn't think the single currency would ever happen and it
:18:06. > :18:12.went ahead. So you do believe that Turkey, despite those criteria, you
:18:13. > :18:15.think... It is the policy of the United Kingdom government that
:18:16. > :18:19.Turkey should join the EU. Should the Remain campaign have just been a
:18:20. > :18:23.bit more upfront about this? To say that, yes, this is the policy of the
:18:24. > :18:26.British Government, David Cameron did say he wanted to pave the road
:18:27. > :18:30.from Ankara to Brussels, and clearly there is work going on behind the
:18:31. > :18:34.scenes, as, perhaps, there should be with the Foreign Office, rather than
:18:35. > :18:39.trying to be done to didn't happen? This is Project Via. It is ironic
:18:40. > :18:52.that the Leave campaign have been banging on and on... That wasn't my
:18:53. > :18:56.question. This is Project Fear. You heard it from Bernard's mouthed. If
:18:57. > :19:03.you don't want Turkey to join, vote to leave. This is Project Fear. Hang
:19:04. > :19:06.on a minute, Bernard. Your key government ministers, the Prime
:19:07. > :19:09.Minister, your Prime Minister, a Conservative Prime Minister, the
:19:10. > :19:15.Home Secretary, your Home Secretary, a Conservative Home Secretary, the
:19:16. > :19:19.Foreign Secretary... At Margaret Hodge, what is the answer to my
:19:20. > :19:23.question in terms of being upfront? It is true that it is government
:19:24. > :19:27.policy, it is also true that money is being spent on developing that
:19:28. > :19:31.policy, whether it happens next year or not for 25 years. If you'd been
:19:32. > :19:35.more upfront about that, do you think there would have been more
:19:36. > :19:41.honesty on your side of the debate? No, because it is equally true that
:19:42. > :19:46.it is taking so long to negotiate the terms of the Turkish entry into
:19:47. > :19:53.Europe that it is so far down the line that by the time it happens,
:19:54. > :19:58.Turkey will have changed so much as a community, and of course the whole
:19:59. > :20:03.world will have got smaller. Your government completely underestimated
:20:04. > :20:10.the forecast of migration. I agree with that. Margaret Hodge said that
:20:11. > :20:12.was wrong and there would be a seven-year transition period and
:20:13. > :20:17.that's only if all those hurdles were overcome. Is there going to be
:20:18. > :20:25.another referendum? No, there isn't. You don't know. This is the only
:20:26. > :20:28.referendum we've got. I would like Turkey to be in the European Union,
:20:29. > :20:33.I just don't want to be in the European Union with Turkey. Why use
:20:34. > :20:36.immigration, which is a very conflict issue, which you won't
:20:37. > :20:42.control by getting out of Europe, why use that as the issue? Because
:20:43. > :20:45.since the banking crisis, since the eurozone crisis, immigration has
:20:46. > :20:52.rocketed from the European Union. It is out of control and your voters
:20:53. > :20:55.think, who is accountable for this? Immigration is democracy,
:20:56. > :20:57.immigration is the economy. It is said in their living standards,
:20:58. > :21:01.their access to public services and you know that and your party has
:21:02. > :21:05.abandoned your voters. That's why Ukip is in second place. I think
:21:06. > :21:09.immigration is a hugely important issue, a very complexes should. I
:21:10. > :21:13.think your pretence that you can control it by getting out of Europe
:21:14. > :21:18.is dishonest. And I think the really important issue, which we haven't
:21:19. > :21:22.thought about this morning on Europe, is what it will do two jobs,
:21:23. > :21:30.what will do to growth, what will do to prosperity. Are on Home
:21:31. > :21:34.Secretary, who is in favour of Remain, said, "It is harder to
:21:35. > :21:39.control immigration as a member of the EU". What have you got to say to
:21:40. > :21:43.that? Can I just ask, briefly, on that point, let's just put the
:21:44. > :21:47.levels to one side because, in a way, you can't guarantee what the
:21:48. > :21:51.levels would be, either. This is about how we decide our immigration
:21:52. > :21:54.policy, who decides it. Let's talk about the point that Margaret just
:21:55. > :21:57.raised about jobs, about the level of growth, some of which is down to
:21:58. > :22:01.levels of migration and migrant workers here and the argument that
:22:02. > :22:05.they contribute, many of them, to the economy and help to grow that
:22:06. > :22:10.economy. What will happen if levels of migration were to go down, let's
:22:11. > :22:13.say, to 80,000 a year? What would happen to the economy? What we are
:22:14. > :22:17.talking about is a points -based immigration system, like we already
:22:18. > :22:21.have for those coming from outside the EU. So why have we got more
:22:22. > :22:26.people coming from outside the EU? If it is working so successfully,
:22:27. > :22:32.why has it gone up. We have started to get them under control. I was
:22:33. > :22:36.just going to say... Let Bernard answer my question. We can still
:22:37. > :22:40.choose to admit the people we think are going to be good for our
:22:41. > :22:44.economy. Has that worked? Not particularly well. It was introduced
:22:45. > :22:47.by the last Labour government and we're trying to make it work better.
:22:48. > :22:51.We could also introduce work permits for people coming from the EU, which
:22:52. > :22:54.is what we used to have. They didn't require visas to come on holiday,
:22:55. > :22:57.they could easily come here to study, but if they're going to stay
:22:58. > :23:01.here to work, they had to have a work permit. Then you would be
:23:02. > :23:04.crowding out people who have to look after their families here, who have
:23:05. > :23:08.to pay housing costs here, who can't afford to take low-paid jobs. So you
:23:09. > :23:12.would want higher levels of migration but from different parts
:23:13. > :23:14.of the world? Not necessarily higher levels of migration but the point
:23:15. > :23:19.is, we wouldn't have the downward pressure on wages. Even the chairman
:23:20. > :23:23.of the Remain campaign said, if we leave the European Union... We
:23:24. > :23:28.haven't heard from him again, have we? Wages will rise, he told the
:23:29. > :23:32.Treasury Select Committee. On Turkey, Margaret Hodge, isn't the
:23:33. > :23:36.problem that it is symbolic? That even if Turkey can't join now and
:23:37. > :23:39.never joined in the foreseeable future, it does symbolise for a lot
:23:40. > :23:42.of people, particularly Labour voters, if we are talking to you
:23:43. > :23:46.about your own party, about the numbers of people from the EU who
:23:47. > :23:52.could be legible to come to the UK, and that frightens people. -- be
:23:53. > :23:55.eligible. I think what frightens people is not so much people coming
:23:56. > :23:59.in, it's that when they come in, they jump the queue, they jump the
:24:00. > :24:03.queue into the benefits system, they jump the queue into... But we know
:24:04. > :24:10.that they don't claim benefits, they are working, as you keep saying.
:24:11. > :24:13.What concerns people, Jo... I have a constituency where there is huge
:24:14. > :24:19.concern about immigration and I think I understand where they are
:24:20. > :24:22.coming from. If your community changes, if the goods are sold in
:24:23. > :24:26.your shop changes, if your neighbours change, that causes some
:24:27. > :24:29.concern and then you think, I can't get my benefit, I can't get my
:24:30. > :24:35.house, I can't get my school plays, I can't get in my hospital. That
:24:36. > :24:39.causes concern, so pretending - and this is what makes me so crossed-
:24:40. > :24:48.that you deal with those concerns by pretending you can cut numbers when
:24:49. > :24:52.you won't... We can't if we stay in the EU. It is nothing to do with the
:24:53. > :24:56.EU. The figures at the moment, more are coming from outside. Even if you
:24:57. > :25:00.got out of the EU, you would end up having to have the Portuguese,
:25:01. > :25:04.Spanish nurses, having the European students coming here. You would end
:25:05. > :25:08.up wanting European tourism, so the idea that you can control it is a
:25:09. > :25:12.false promise. Let me come back to it and to that but just broadly, on
:25:13. > :25:16.Turkey, because there has been a deal done, that they have
:25:17. > :25:20.successfully controlled level of migration through Turkey and into
:25:21. > :25:25.Europe, through one route, do we not know Turkey some concession because
:25:26. > :25:30.otherwise they said they'll open the floodgates. This is a very serious
:25:31. > :25:35.point. We are playing with fire here, Europe. Turkey is a very
:25:36. > :25:41.important member of Nato and we are effectively promising Turkey
:25:42. > :25:45.membership of the EU. We are not promising membership at the moment.
:25:46. > :25:48.It is these free travel. The whole offer to Turkey was to be
:25:49. > :25:52.integrated. That's why they are offering these are free travel. If
:25:53. > :25:57.this is not going to happen, playing fast and loose with a country that
:25:58. > :26:00.is half in the Muslim world and on the edge of this very, very
:26:01. > :26:05.destabilised area... Should there not have been a deal done on Turkey?
:26:06. > :26:09.Well, trying to push the migration crisis on to Turkey, bribing Turkey
:26:10. > :26:13.to do with the migration crisis and keep the migrants themselves, this
:26:14. > :26:16.is a very dangerous game and it is being played for reasons of European
:26:17. > :26:19.politics and we've seen European politics blow up in Ukraine very
:26:20. > :26:23.badly because of the incompetent EU foreign policy. I hope we are not
:26:24. > :26:25.seeing something seriously going on in Turkey to dock we are going to
:26:26. > :26:31.have to move on at that point. The so-called Islamic State group
:26:32. > :26:33.has claimed responsibility for the deadliest mass shooting
:26:34. > :26:35.in recent US history. The attack at the Pulse nightclub
:26:36. > :26:38.in Orlando began at around 2am local 50 people were killed
:26:39. > :26:41.and a further 53 were injured. The gunman has been identified
:26:42. > :26:43.as 29-year-old US He took hostages after an initial
:26:44. > :26:47.exchange of fire He was then shot dead hours later
:26:48. > :26:52.after a full police assault We can talk now to Tom Rogan,
:26:53. > :26:57.a foreign policy columnist for the National Review,
:26:58. > :27:09.who joins us from Washington. Tom, tell us the latest in terms of
:27:10. > :27:14.response in Washington. Great to be with you. This morning, there is a
:27:15. > :27:18.mixture of obviously great sorrow in terms of the media reporting, in
:27:19. > :27:25.terms of people attending events, especially LGBT of events around the
:27:26. > :27:28.country. But the political dynamic, as well. Hillary Clinton from the
:27:29. > :27:32.Democratic party is focusing on course for a gun ban in terms of
:27:33. > :27:37.assault rifles. Donald Trump is talking about doubling down on his
:27:38. > :27:43.ban on Muslims and he's just told Fox cut through news earlier this
:27:44. > :27:46.morning that "We need to look very strongly at the mosques" so there is
:27:47. > :27:52.this dichotomy in the political dynamic that is spurring fourth.
:27:53. > :27:56.Because in this case this is a home-grown terrorist, a Muslim, but
:27:57. > :28:00.a home-grown terrorist. Has that focused people's political and ten
:28:01. > :28:11.I'm more sharply as a result? -- and I think it has. I don't think
:28:12. > :28:16.Americans have fully come to terms with it yet. It is a change to the
:28:17. > :28:19.landscape and it is the brutality and the durability of that
:28:20. > :28:23.brutality, in the sense that this attack went on for many hours. I
:28:24. > :28:27.think it is something that has shocked people to the court. What
:28:28. > :28:32.about the gun laws? President Obama, when these tragedies do happen, does
:28:33. > :28:37.always refer to the fact that it is so easy in the United States to buy
:28:38. > :28:40.things like assault rifles. Will it actually make any difference? Will
:28:41. > :28:45.this time be any different to previous times? One of the things I
:28:46. > :28:48.think it is quite hard... I grew up in the UK but as an American who
:28:49. > :28:55.grew up in the UK, it is different in terms of how people understand
:28:56. > :28:58.it. The motion of firearms, both in American culture and in people's
:28:59. > :29:04.everyday lives in terms of hunting but also security of home, is
:29:05. > :29:07.something very imbued. And so the administration, yes, with Hillary
:29:08. > :29:10.Clinton, will push for that. They will try to make it an issue going
:29:11. > :29:13.forwards but I think it's going to be very hard for them because
:29:14. > :29:17.ultimately, when it comes down to the crunch moment about legislation
:29:18. > :29:23.in Congress, because of things like concern about magazine capacity
:29:24. > :29:27.limits on handguns, the momentum and the public opinion actually centres
:29:28. > :29:31.towards not reforming the law. Because of the divisiveness within
:29:32. > :29:34.American politics, particularly seen through the prism of the
:29:35. > :29:39.presidential campaign with Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, as you
:29:40. > :29:41.mentioned, that is now going to, I presume, be used to further divide
:29:42. > :29:46.that same community along the lines of Trump and Clinton.
:29:47. > :29:53.Yes, this is the issue we have, it's likely Donald Trump will try to use
:29:54. > :30:01.this to push down on his stance, in terms of bands -- bans and whatever
:30:02. > :30:06.he means by looking into the mosques. The difficulty is, the real
:30:07. > :30:11.thing you can do here, I, for example, argue for a more concerted
:30:12. > :30:18.effort to dealing with Isis more quickly, because of the inspiration
:30:19. > :30:24.quite frankly that their power they get from different groups around the
:30:25. > :30:27.world, recruiting people on the periphery of society in Western
:30:28. > :30:32.countries, but ultimately, in the domestic sense, the FBI and its
:30:33. > :30:36.partners in terms of local law enforcement in alignment with the
:30:37. > :30:37.intelligence community and foreign partners like the British
:30:38. > :30:41.intelligence services, that's how you do with terrorism and the
:30:42. > :30:46.political dynamics ultimately our campaign fodder in what is going to
:30:47. > :30:51.be an extremely bitter campaign. Your viewers may think they've seen
:30:52. > :30:54.about its going to get much, much more heated. I'm sure it will be.
:30:55. > :30:55.Thank you very much. We've been joined in the studio by
:30:56. > :30:58.Douglas Murray, associate director of the Henry Jackson Society,
:30:59. > :31:04.a foreign affairs think tank. Thank you. In a sense, he was a lone
:31:05. > :31:07.wolf and you're never going to completely be able to protect
:31:08. > :31:11.communities from lone wolves with guns. No, not you could burn to be
:31:12. > :31:17.able to. There are certain things you can do -- no, you're not going
:31:18. > :31:21.to be able to do. You can make things harder. You need to have an
:31:22. > :31:27.ideology, you need to have the compulsion to act in a violent way
:31:28. > :31:30.on that ideology and the means to carry out an attack. In America,
:31:31. > :31:36.it's a lot easier to get the means, that we shouldn't be too sacrosanct
:31:37. > :31:40.about this. It's not illegal to get a Kalashnikovs in France but still
:31:41. > :31:46.possible for the people who did it there. It's a lot easier in the USA.
:31:47. > :31:49.The interesting thing so far about this is the Islamic State
:31:50. > :31:53.connection, which is clearly not just for this young man but for a
:31:54. > :31:58.lot of people, provided the ideological component of this. It
:31:59. > :32:06.has given the opportunity for people like this murderer and terrorist, to
:32:07. > :32:10.believe they are part of a bigger thing, believe they are part of a
:32:11. > :32:15.movement. There's always been ideologists, left-wing and
:32:16. > :32:19.right-wing, that drive people, their report this young man was mentally
:32:20. > :32:23.unstable, that drive people to do these things so with anything
:32:24. > :32:28.particularly special about being in accordance with Isis? We've seen a
:32:29. > :32:34.lot of gun massacres in the USA and is usually an enormous interest in
:32:35. > :32:39.the nippy ideology of the person has been propelled by. I'm very stuck in
:32:40. > :32:43.cases like this, let me give you a quick example, if this government
:32:44. > :32:46.had turned out to be from a Christian background, inspired by
:32:47. > :32:50.some far right Christian group, by now the media in the UK, USA and
:32:51. > :32:53.around the world will be looking at who he knew, which church he
:32:54. > :32:58.attended, what preachers who listen to and what his contacts where. Will
:32:59. > :33:06.they not be doing that here? It's striking how little of that has been
:33:07. > :33:11.going on. It's the same in 2009. Let me just finish this point quickly.
:33:12. > :33:14.Only two months ago, in Orlando, Florida, there was a scandal not
:33:15. > :33:18.really picked up in the media, a preacher went to one of the main
:33:19. > :33:25.mosques in Orlando, a Shia preacher from Manchester, and said, he
:33:26. > :33:29.teaches this particular thing, homosexuals not only can be killed
:33:30. > :33:35.but must be killed now. He said you have to kill the gays now. As I say,
:33:36. > :33:39.if this had been a Christian preacher saying this, we would be
:33:40. > :33:42.all over this stuff. People want to say mentally ill because it an
:33:43. > :33:48.Islamic issue. Do you think that's true? We are finding this very
:33:49. > :33:51.difficult because criticising fellow Christians is very much easier than
:33:52. > :33:54.criticising somebody else's religion, but I think we've got to
:33:55. > :34:00.get over this squeamishness and call a spade a spade. You think there is
:34:01. > :34:04.a squeamishness? I feel part of it, it's understandable, I'm a Christian
:34:05. > :34:09.myself and one hesitates to judge other people's religions, but you
:34:10. > :34:15.just need to read Ed Hussain, the Islamist, a ten-year-old but, and
:34:16. > :34:20.how you cannot say these attacks are nothing to do with Islam. And we've
:34:21. > :34:23.got to get this lamb, the Islamic religion better to police itself,
:34:24. > :34:26.huge efforts are being made in this country to do this, by the way,
:34:27. > :34:32.amongst the communities, but they find themselves it difficult to talk
:34:33. > :34:38.about. And you find it difficult to talk about it, Margaret Hodge? To
:34:39. > :34:42.think there was more extremist ideology, taken in some part from a
:34:43. > :34:51.slam even though most Muslims are not violent? I was going to make
:34:52. > :34:53.that point. I talked to my Muslims, I have eight mosques in my
:34:54. > :35:00.constituency and I talk about any extremism or fundamentalism emerging
:35:01. > :35:05.amongst the young people? I think it's important to talk about it, of
:35:06. > :35:08.course, it's a really tough issue to tackle but I got to come back to the
:35:09. > :35:13.USA. I look at the figures this morning because I knew we would be
:35:14. > :35:22.talking about it. 176 mass killings in this calendar year alone since
:35:23. > :35:28.January 2013, there have been 1122 killings from mass killings, whether
:35:29. > :35:36.it ideological in America, that has got to be done with a gun laws. I
:35:37. > :35:40.said that at the outset. Do you think there's any evidence, even if
:35:41. > :35:46.Hillary Clinton decides to adopt it for her presidential campaign, will
:35:47. > :35:52.it make any difference to what is an extremely powerful and embedded gun
:35:53. > :35:55.lobby in the states? This particular attack is primarily not about the
:35:56. > :36:02.gun lobby but about Islamic conflict. If he had not had a gun,
:36:03. > :36:05.he wouldn't be able to do that damage. Let's deal with the gun
:36:06. > :36:11.issue. Will it ever be dealt with on the basis of politics? I wouldn't
:36:12. > :36:14.have thought so. It's an American issue for Americans to deal with. I
:36:15. > :36:19.wish they would make it harder to get assault rifles. People are
:36:20. > :36:22.treating this as if this is in isolation. A couple of months ago a
:36:23. > :36:28.poll was released about the attitudes of British muslins. That
:36:29. > :36:32.poll said 52% of British Muslims want homosexuality to be made
:36:33. > :36:36.illegal in Britain. Not on board with gay marriage, not cool with
:36:37. > :36:42.civil partnerships, but make it illegal to be gay. That is a clear
:36:43. > :36:44.line from that belief held by a majority of British Muslims to
:36:45. > :36:48.somebody walking into a nightclub and gunning down people for being
:36:49. > :36:51.games and it's time Islamic leaders around the world and in this country
:36:52. > :36:57.except they're responsible at this hate. This comes back to be able to
:36:58. > :37:00.say what British law is under way it stands. Is enough being done by
:37:01. > :37:06.politicians like you to go in there and say not acceptable to condemn
:37:07. > :37:12.homosexuality? I agree with that. It's an issue of changing cultures.
:37:13. > :37:16.I go into my mosques and women sit on one side and amends on the other,
:37:17. > :37:21.I find that does not fit in with my values. And I talk about it and say
:37:22. > :37:26.why other women there? I haven't talked about sexuality. Perhaps I
:37:27. > :37:30.should. I will take that away and think about that. Certainly, within
:37:31. > :37:35.the Labour Party now, when we are thinking about anti-Semitism and how
:37:36. > :37:38.that has risen, that raises a whole lot of difficult issues for us.
:37:39. > :37:43.These are tough issues which we should talk about and we should be
:37:44. > :37:47.clear at the British values on tolerance and equality, whatever
:37:48. > :37:52.your gender, whatever the issue, ought to be paramount in UK society
:37:53. > :37:56.so I'm with you on that. And you agree, not countering enough senior
:37:57. > :38:02.people from perhaps outside and within the religion can sing that
:38:03. > :38:06.ideology? Don't undress to how difficult that is. We now have laws
:38:07. > :38:13.that make it almost illegal for comedians to make homophobic jokes,
:38:14. > :38:16.OK? If those laws were applied to preachers in mosques, and the police
:38:17. > :38:21.went in to deal with these crimes, I mean, just think about the tinderbox
:38:22. > :38:28.you would be lighting. We need more understanding. We need to extend as
:38:29. > :38:33.much support as we can to moderate Muslim people who believe in
:38:34. > :38:37.integrating their religion into the values of our society, so it would
:38:38. > :38:43.help them to isolate extremists. The extraordinary thing about the world
:38:44. > :38:48.of Islam, particularly Wahabi Islam, is how exclusive it is and how you
:38:49. > :38:53.are either a good Muslim or not. And it is like the most extreme forms of
:38:54. > :39:01.Christianity. Except that Christianity has never, you know, we
:39:02. > :39:03.don't have the violence... Douglas Murray, thank you.
:39:04. > :39:05.Let's take a look now at how the political week
:39:06. > :39:09.Tomorrow Jeremy Corbyn will give a speech putting forward the case
:39:10. > :39:14.He'll be joined by union leaders Frances O'Grady and Len McCluskey.
:39:15. > :39:16.Then in the afternoon, former Mayor of London Ken Livingstone
:39:17. > :39:19.will be questioned by MPs about anti-Semitism.
:39:20. > :39:22.On Wednesday it's the turn of Sir Philip Green,
:39:23. > :39:24.the former owner of BHS, to go in front of MPs
:39:25. > :39:27.to explain his involvement in the store closing down.
:39:28. > :39:33.On Friday, MPs on the home affairs committee are publishing
:39:34. > :39:39.And to end the week, Andrew Neil interviews his final guest,
:39:40. > :39:43.Iain Duncan Smith, on - what else? - the EU referendum.
:39:44. > :39:45.Joining me now to discuss the week ahead
:39:46. > :39:48.is Rafael Behr of the Guardian, and Isabel Hardman
:39:49. > :39:59.Welcome to both of you. Not long to go now. Gordon Brown making a speech
:40:00. > :40:03.today as part of the Labour remained rebranding, it's a bit late, isn't
:40:04. > :40:06.it? Gordon Brown will be hoping not and the Prime Minister will be
:40:07. > :40:11.hoping not, as well, because what essentially has happened is towards
:40:12. > :40:15.the end of last week, when the official Remain Campaign started to
:40:16. > :40:18.get very nervous about the way things were going and what they
:40:19. > :40:23.found is, while a lot of Conservative voters can be minded to
:40:24. > :40:27.support the European Union, there's a big problem with the Labour vote
:40:28. > :40:30.and what I have essentially done, then sit down on Friday to think
:40:31. > :40:33.about what to do and they decided to more less clear the pitch at the
:40:34. > :40:38.beginning of this week to get the Labour a load of Labour people out
:40:39. > :40:41.to say, in case you realise, the Labour position is to support the
:40:42. > :40:45.membership of the EU and this gets to a big cultural problem the Labour
:40:46. > :40:48.Party has witches, traditionally, in any kind of vote, there's lots of
:40:49. > :40:53.areas where you have Labour voters, and they just turn out in droves and
:40:54. > :40:56.point them to the polling booth and say, you know what to do. But they
:40:57. > :41:05.are doing something different, they don't want to stay in the EU? They
:41:06. > :41:09.will hope it's not too late. Isabel Hardman, Jeremy Corbyn and John
:41:10. > :41:12.McDonnell, it seems, have not been present enough when you look at the
:41:13. > :41:16.statistics in terms of who is made more speeches, had more appearances,
:41:17. > :41:19.it been left, it seems, to some of the former Labour leader is if we
:41:20. > :41:25.look at Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Harriet Harman. Also there's a
:41:26. > :41:29.postmortem of Labour's failed campaign on this. Alan Johnson also
:41:30. > :41:34.will come in for criticism because he's barely been visible and he's
:41:35. > :41:38.the leader for the Labour in campaign for that we barely had
:41:39. > :41:42.speeches, read anything from him and I'm not sure what he's been doing to
:41:43. > :41:45.infuse those Labour voters and that's exactly what you were
:41:46. > :41:49.supposed to do, to take the role some thought Jeremy Corbyn could not
:41:50. > :41:53.necessarily do because he's quite sceptical about Europe even though
:41:54. > :41:59.he's officially campaigning to stay in. What about June 24? At the
:42:00. > :42:04.weekend, there was talk about pensions and a triple lock, David
:42:05. > :42:08.Cameron saying it could be at risk, but that government policy whether
:42:09. > :42:13.we are in or out of the EU. Gordon Brown talk about jobs created if we
:42:14. > :42:17.stayed in the EU. We do seem to be now squarely in what does happen on
:42:18. > :42:21.June 24 in terms of manifestos and election promises. That point about
:42:22. > :42:28.pensions is quite interesting because it's a wider argument that
:42:29. > :42:31.the Remain people are trying to say, there would be less money for
:42:32. > :42:35.everything. One interesting thing in this campaign is a whole frame of
:42:36. > :42:39.politics and the economic argument before the EU referendum was about
:42:40. > :42:42.fiscal crisis, I think we've more or less close that but can now and as a
:42:43. > :42:46.whole new chapter. The league campaign says we have a huge amount
:42:47. > :42:50.of money to spend on hospitals and schools and David Cameron saying the
:42:51. > :42:54.leader spent on pensions. You will find a different structure to the
:42:55. > :42:57.way the whole argument goes on about priorities and what the product of
:42:58. > :43:00.governing Britain will be regardless of the result and that throws
:43:01. > :43:11.anything up in the air. Who will be in charge then? Will it be Remain or
:43:12. > :43:17.Leave? There's a big push to keep David Cameron even if there is a
:43:18. > :43:20.Vote Leave. Many MPs think it would be a good idea for the country but
:43:21. > :43:25.it would be very difficult for David Cameron to have authority as Prime
:43:26. > :43:29.Minister, given he is made warnings like Brexit will put a bomb under
:43:30. > :43:32.the economy. How will he reassure people that exactly what's happening
:43:33. > :43:36.and how we carry out the wishes of the British people? We don't
:43:37. > :43:39.necessarily know what model of Brexit he would go for and you would
:43:40. > :43:45.have to work with those who campaigned for Leave to work on that
:43:46. > :43:48.so it would be very tricky and it's quite significant he's had to talk
:43:49. > :43:52.about that already and it shows he's not in the plate in his campaign
:43:53. > :43:55.where he helped to be at this stage. Thank you to both of you.
:43:56. > :43:57.If you've been following the news coverage of BHS, you'll know
:43:58. > :44:00.that the former owner of the chain of high street stores,
:44:01. > :44:03.Sir Philip Green, is refusing to appear in front of a House
:44:04. > :44:04.of Commons committee to answer questions
:44:05. > :44:08.Sir Philip said on Friday that he's not prepared to participate
:44:09. > :44:11.with the evidence session this Wednesday, unless its chairman,
:44:12. > :44:16.Sir Philip says Mr Field is biased and is conducting a trial by media.
:44:17. > :44:18.Another MP on the committee, Richard Fuller, told Andrew Neil
:44:19. > :44:20.yesterday there would be consequences if Sir Philip
:44:21. > :44:27.I've always said that we have to wait for him to come and answer
:44:28. > :44:30.What we've seen in the last few weeks is very serious
:44:31. > :44:33.concerns about his behaviour and the behaviour of his directors.
:44:34. > :44:36.If he doesn't come, I think, at that stage then, within the rules
:44:37. > :44:39.of how you can be stripped of an honour, I think the committee
:44:40. > :44:42.would very seriously look at that, yes.
:44:43. > :44:46.At this point we had hoped to be joined by the chair of the Work
:44:47. > :44:48.and Pensions Select Committee, Frank Field, but sadly he hasn't
:44:49. > :44:55.But, of course, I have you to instead. So what are the sanctions,
:44:56. > :45:01.Bernard Jenkin, that can be brought to bear on someone like filigree and
:45:02. > :45:03.if he doesn't turn up? It is very serious to be in contempt of
:45:04. > :45:08.Parliament but he would be subject to contempt of Parliament
:45:09. > :45:15.proceedings. -- someone like Philip green. If he refuses to take part,
:45:16. > :45:18.there are no criminal sanctions, no fines, but his reputation is in
:45:19. > :45:22.tatters and the idea that he could retain his knighthood or anything
:45:23. > :45:27.like that... It's stupid, actually, because he can come to the
:45:28. > :45:31.committee, he is free to speak, he is free to say whatever he likes so
:45:32. > :45:33.long as he is not actually misleading parliament. He is not
:45:34. > :45:40.going to be constrained about what he says about other people for fear
:45:41. > :45:44.of being sued and it is to its advantage to attend and the idea
:45:45. > :45:51.that Ranville, of all people, is not open-minded and evenhanded, he is
:45:52. > :45:56.picking on... I don't come under the same category as Frank. But he has
:45:57. > :46:01.made a valid point, I think, by saying, if you've already made up
:46:02. > :46:06.your mind, and you have lots of sessions where people said, we bang
:46:07. > :46:11.to rights before we even appear, why should they appeared before what
:46:12. > :46:15.they feel are biased proceedings? Goal but I think our sections are a
:46:16. > :46:19.bit stronger than Bernard suggested. Until the 1880s, when people refused
:46:20. > :46:22.to do something that the House of Commons ruled, we would take them
:46:23. > :46:26.through the House of Commons and they would have a little period of
:46:27. > :46:36.surgery to reflect. That sounds very ominous! They were
:46:37. > :46:41.locked up in a room. You can't do that now, can you? Why not? It has
:46:42. > :46:45.never been removed. Because of the Human Rights Act. We are not talking
:46:46. > :46:48.about the EU referendum on the Human Rights Act. Go bye-bye think it has
:46:49. > :46:57.been a great week of Parliament. The hearings that were held in front of
:46:58. > :47:02.Ian Wright, what a fantastic... And you are talking about Mike
:47:03. > :47:05.Ashley. You would never have got it in a court of law. You would never
:47:06. > :47:11.have got Mike Ashley admitting in a court of law that he was not paying
:47:12. > :47:15.minimal wage and the strength of the informality... But they've got to
:47:16. > :47:20.turn up. If they think you are biased and have made up your mind,
:47:21. > :47:25.and Frank field has even put up figure on the amount he should pay,
:47:26. > :47:29.why should he turn up? It is to Philip Green's advantage of the ends
:47:30. > :47:32.up. This is not a judicial process and is not going to result in any
:47:33. > :47:37.consequences, judicial consequences for him, as a result of this. Not
:47:38. > :47:41.even the Financial Conduct Authority, the department for trade
:47:42. > :47:46.and industry, they cannot use what he says in that committee against
:47:47. > :47:49.him in any way whatsoever. That is the advantage of the select
:47:50. > :47:54.committee. Do you think he will turn up? I think he will and I agree with
:47:55. > :47:58.Bernard. If he doesn't... You are going to lock him away? I'm going to
:47:59. > :48:02.lock him away in Big Ben and take his knighthood. He would be served
:48:03. > :48:12.with a rich. It happened Arthur Scargill. If you are running away
:48:13. > :48:16.from a writ for Parliament, what have you got left of your
:48:17. > :48:17.reputation? Lets leave it there. Philip Green, I hope you are
:48:18. > :48:19.watching. Interviews with big
:48:20. > :48:20.names are a mainstay But how do the big interviewers make
:48:21. > :48:24.sure their grillings on TV In the latest of a series
:48:25. > :48:29.of films about how BBC news programmes are put together,
:48:30. > :48:31.Adam's gone behind the scenes of some of the BBC's
:48:32. > :48:33.flagship political shows. Up the road at Broadcasting House,
:48:34. > :48:39.it's rush hour as politicians arrive On first, Andrew Marr with a line-up
:48:40. > :48:46.that includes the Mayor of London, the former head of MI6
:48:47. > :48:48.and the Justice So sometimes you simply say what's
:48:49. > :48:53.on your mind and sit Sometimes you have to really hit
:48:54. > :48:58.them hard and carry on pursuing something they don't
:48:59. > :48:59.want to talk about. Every interview is different,
:49:00. > :49:05.but I'm basically there to get the interviewee to say the most
:49:06. > :49:08.interesting things to two million plus people watching
:49:09. > :49:12.that they can say on that day. Sometimes it doesn't go brilliantly,
:49:13. > :49:14.like this interview with Boris. I'm going to tell you what I'm
:49:15. > :49:18.going to cover. There are times when something more
:49:19. > :49:27.than the intellectual give-and-take that we're looking for creeps
:49:28. > :49:30.into the relationship with I try to look people in the eye
:49:31. > :49:40.and ask always the obvious questions Right, off to the third floor to see
:49:41. > :49:49.Pienaar Politics on 5 Live. RADIO: First for breaking news
:49:50. > :49:52.and the best live sport. Even though his name
:49:53. > :49:57.is in the title of the show, JP insists interviews
:49:58. > :50:02.are never about him. You start from the position
:50:03. > :50:04.that we are impartial Once you recognise there's no place
:50:05. > :50:09.for your own prejudices and your own personal take
:50:10. > :50:12.on things, it's not interesting Once you start from there,
:50:13. > :50:16.all of your questions fall into the necessary category
:50:17. > :50:19.and they make sense. You don't let any politician
:50:20. > :50:22.just say what they have You test them or what's
:50:23. > :50:26.the point of being there? What's the point of asking
:50:27. > :50:34.questions? OK, it's 11 o'clock so time to go
:50:35. > :50:36.to the basement again for The Sunday Politics
:50:37. > :50:38.with Andrew Neil. Andrew is grilling the leader
:50:39. > :50:45.of the Scottish Conservatives The catchphrase he uses when he's
:50:46. > :50:49.prepping for interviews A team of researchers works
:50:50. > :50:54.through what will be the best lines to follow,
:50:55. > :50:57.do the fact-based research, go through all the documents, make sure
:50:58. > :51:00.we know what we're talking about. I do the same myself,
:51:01. > :51:03.I do a lot of research myself. We bring the two together
:51:04. > :51:08.and we try to build a reputation for basing our interviews
:51:09. > :51:12.on the facts and getting the politicians of all parties
:51:13. > :51:17.to address the facts. And that's it for Sunday morning
:51:18. > :51:20.with my much, much, much, much, Interviewing an interviewer
:51:21. > :51:24.about interviewing. And you can see all Adam's films
:51:25. > :51:33.about how the BBC ensures fairness In the final few weeks before
:51:34. > :51:42.the referendum on 23rd June, we have been showcasing
:51:43. > :51:43.the arguments for remaining in the EU and leaving it
:51:44. > :51:47.in a series of short films. Today we're looking at how Green
:51:48. > :51:50.supporters are approaching the vote. In a moment we'll hear
:51:51. > :51:53.from the Green MP Caroline Lucas First, though, here's
:51:54. > :51:59.the Green activist Mark Hill, Most of the political parties tell
:52:00. > :52:15.us that we should remain in the European Union but just look
:52:16. > :52:19.at the opinion polls. And many of those expecting to vote
:52:20. > :52:26.Leave will therefore be Green We are reminding voters
:52:27. > :52:34.that we are all in this together and we take this decision
:52:35. > :52:38.collectively as citizens whatever Our key argument is that the major
:52:39. > :52:46.parties all want us to stay in, claiming that we can reform
:52:47. > :52:50.the European Union from within. We simply say that the
:52:51. > :52:54.European Union is beyond reform. Protectionism against developing
:52:55. > :52:57.countries, savage austerity in Greece and mass unemployment
:52:58. > :53:02.amongst youth are the results, so look at our website which show
:53:03. > :53:05.what left-wing figures like Tony Benn have had to say
:53:06. > :53:09.about the European Union. Because to come and speak
:53:10. > :53:11.at a public meeting, And here's Caroline Lucas,
:53:12. > :53:25.former leader of the Green Party, with her case for remaining
:53:26. > :53:51.in the EU. Now, it was so good we thought we'd
:53:52. > :53:55.play you twice! We will try and bring new Caroline Lucas's in just a
:53:56. > :53:58.moment but we've been joined in the studio by Mark Hill, the leader of
:53:59. > :54:02.the Green KEN DOHERTY: Leaves campaign. -- the
:54:03. > :54:05.green leaves campaign. And by the deputy leader
:54:06. > :54:12.of the Green Party Shahrar Ali. Surely it is better to negotiate as
:54:13. > :54:17.part of the major trading bloc than alone? I would say no. I would say
:54:18. > :54:20.that the results on issues like climate change have been very mixed.
:54:21. > :54:25.The emissions trading scheme has been less successful than some of
:54:26. > :54:31.the projects that the government has undertaken unilaterally. Bilateral
:54:32. > :54:37.treaties work extremely well. It would be wrong to say that the
:54:38. > :54:39.European Union has been uniformly unsuccessful but there are certainly
:54:40. > :54:44.many environmentally related responsibilities which it has not
:54:45. > :54:48.exercised well. But are you really saying that Britain would have done
:54:49. > :54:53.better at some of those targets than by being part of the EU? I suggest
:54:54. > :55:00.that we should be very conscious of what the EU decides but not be ruled
:55:01. > :55:04.by a. What do you say, Sharar Ali? With the greatest respect, I think
:55:05. > :55:10.anybody who really understands green ethos, green ideology and the green
:55:11. > :55:16.movement, we are through and through internationalists. That's why we are
:55:17. > :55:19.firmly arguing for staying in the EU but not unreformed. Wheelie great
:55:20. > :55:24.reform. But some of the things where we need cross border reform,
:55:25. > :55:28.collaboration, climate change is one of the biggest issues of our time.
:55:29. > :55:32.We've had an agreement amongst international leaders and it is much
:55:33. > :55:38.much easier now for us to get EU leaders together and to try and make
:55:39. > :55:42.the steps that are necessary, like 107 renewable energy by 2050. These
:55:43. > :55:46.are not things that can be done unilaterally or bilaterally, and the
:55:47. > :55:50.EU has been tremendous on environmental legislation generally.
:55:51. > :55:54.Is Mark misguided, and is he very representative in terms of other
:55:55. > :56:01.Green Party supporters? Unlike most parties, we have an official,
:56:02. > :56:05.democratically decided position. People are able to dissent from that
:56:06. > :56:08.but once it is decided I think it is great for the party to be
:56:09. > :56:13.demonstrating the unity of that decision. However, I think it is
:56:14. > :56:18.doubly problematic for Green is to be proposing and except for the EU.
:56:19. > :56:22.This is one of the areas where we have proportional representation. We
:56:23. > :56:27.have a far better mandate in the European Parliament than we do in
:56:28. > :56:29.our own UK Parliamentary institutions. Caroline Lucas, first
:56:30. > :56:33.past the post, one by 1 million voters. We are very aware that we
:56:34. > :56:38.are standing for a referendum and reform to stay in. The House of
:56:39. > :56:42.Lords, and an elected institution, we can't equate that institution
:56:43. > :56:45.with the European Parliament, a farm more do credit regime. This seems to
:56:46. > :56:49.go against some of the core principles of being a member of the
:56:50. > :56:53.Green Party. I don't think so and for a long time the Green Party was
:56:54. > :56:59.very ambivalent about the EU and that was part of a tradition that
:57:00. > :57:03.existed across the left, including towering figures like Tony Benn. If
:57:04. > :57:09.you look at the polls now, the Leave campaign would appear to be ahead.
:57:10. > :57:13.That's empty can be on the back of disgruntled Conservatives and Ukip
:57:14. > :57:18.supporters. -- that simply cannot be. Everybody that is arguing for
:57:19. > :57:21.relief is ultimately against their political party and it would appear
:57:22. > :57:27.from the breakdowns of the opinion polls that people on the left are
:57:28. > :57:32.going to be roughly 30% or more voting for Leave in spite of what
:57:33. > :57:35.you say, and I would claim that a lot of people are doing this
:57:36. > :57:39.precisely for internationalist reasons, because they would like to
:57:40. > :57:44.engage more deeply with the wide array of countries outside be you
:57:45. > :57:47.that need our contact. One of the things Mark Reyes was about
:57:48. > :57:52.austerity, because the policy since the crash has been pro-austerity,
:57:53. > :57:56.rightly or only, and that in itself would not be a Green Party
:57:57. > :57:59.printable. That definitely great against Green Party ethos and we've
:58:00. > :58:02.been railing against austerity measures in this country, but that
:58:03. > :58:07.isn't to say that people facing massive unemployment in Greece or or
:58:08. > :58:11.facing those kinds austerity measures shouldn't get a bit of
:58:12. > :58:15.solidarity from us. It is partly about what kind of people you want
:58:16. > :58:19.to be, do you want to pull up the drawbridge and be Englanders or do
:58:20. > :58:21.we want to express solidarity with our European colleagues and
:58:22. > :58:26.neighbours and say, actually, we're with you and we're going to help
:58:27. > :58:30.you, even if, as a relatively rich country, it is going to cost a
:58:31. > :58:33.slightly more? I think the people of this country are very prepared to do
:58:34. > :58:36.things not just for their own sake but for others to. We are sorry we
:58:37. > :58:42.are unable to show the Caroline Lucas clip as promised but you can
:58:43. > :58:44.watch it online on our website. Gremlins obviously exist.
:58:45. > :58:48.Thanks to Margaret, Bernard and all my guests.
:58:49. > :58:50.I'll be back here on BBC Two tomorrow at noon with
:58:51. > :59:03.MUSIC: Send My Love (To Your New Lover) by Adele