:00:39. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Labour lines up its big guns for a show of unity.
:00:45. > :00:48.Will it help get the party's vote out for Remain?
:00:49. > :00:52.Vote Leave highlight ?27 million spent by the EU on luxury
:00:53. > :00:57.hotels and resorts, restaurants and private jets.
:00:58. > :01:00.But is the spending which amounts to just one fortieth of one
:01:01. > :01:02.per cent of total EU spending really profligate?
:01:03. > :01:08.How will citizens in the home of Citizen Smith exercise
:01:09. > :01:10.their democratic rights when they go to the polls
:01:11. > :01:16.And we've asked Cass the Psychic Cat, we've
:01:17. > :01:19.asked the pollsters, but can the bookies give us a better
:01:20. > :01:28.idea of how Britain will vote in next week's referendum?
:01:29. > :01:34.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:35. > :01:37.of the programme today is the former Trade Minister in Gordon
:01:38. > :01:38.Brown's government of all the talents -
:01:39. > :01:42.He's now campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union.
:01:43. > :01:45.Now, they're not an alternative government of course,
:01:46. > :01:49.but Leave campaigners have today been setting out
:01:50. > :01:52.what they would like to be done with the money the UK pays
:01:53. > :01:57.to the EU, should voters opt to leave on 23rd June.
:01:58. > :02:00.In a letter, signed by Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, the Vote Leave
:02:01. > :02:04.campaign have pledged to protect the funding for farming, science
:02:05. > :02:09.and culture that they already receive from the EU until 2020.
:02:10. > :02:14.The letter goes on to argue that there would still be "billions
:02:15. > :02:18.more" to spend after those payments, and proposes putting ?5.5 billion
:02:19. > :02:25.into the NHS by 2020, or ?100 million a week.
:02:26. > :02:30.And use ?1.7 billion to abolish VAT on household energy bills.
:02:31. > :02:35.But Remain campaigners, including former Chancellor Alistair
:02:36. > :02:38.Darling, argue that the Leave campaign have already committed
:02:39. > :02:41.to more ?100 billion spending commitments
:02:42. > :02:44.with the money from the EU, and that leaving the EU
:02:45. > :02:47.would lead to a "black hole in the public finances",
:02:48. > :02:50.arguing that nine out of ten economists say it
:02:51. > :03:04.Under whose authority are vote lead campaign is making these
:03:05. > :03:09.commitments? I'm not part of the official campaign so I've no idea. I
:03:10. > :03:15.am definitely going to vote to leave but I'm reluctant in as much that I
:03:16. > :03:19.would love to stay in a reformed EU but I have no confidence in them
:03:20. > :03:25.doing that. My concern is that nobody on either side actually
:03:26. > :03:31.knows. They are peddling the possibilities on both sides as if it
:03:32. > :03:37.is fact. They are very close to doing a budget and an alternative
:03:38. > :03:42.budget. Is that what it sounds like? As you were reading that, I thought,
:03:43. > :03:50.this is like a Tuesday in March. What worries me is that, I know why
:03:51. > :03:56.they have to do it, because the economy is where Remain is trying
:03:57. > :04:02.hard to win. Do you think the Leave campaign has struggled on the
:04:03. > :04:06.economy? I think if Leave is winning on immigration and Remain is winning
:04:07. > :04:12.on the economy, the problem is with the economy is that nobody knows. I
:04:13. > :04:16.get frustrated by Remain who are saying this is going to happen and
:04:17. > :04:23.this is going to happen, I wouldn't trust an economist to run a bar! I
:04:24. > :04:30.remember I took the euro of the agenda at the CPI and I had 20
:04:31. > :04:35.economists writing saying it would be Armageddon if we don't join the
:04:36. > :04:40.Euro! And on that basis of don't know or both sides are peddling what
:04:41. > :04:46.they say are facts, how dangerous is it to have a list of spending
:04:47. > :04:52.commitments, this does come from Remain, but saying they have spent
:04:53. > :04:57.over and over again the money they say will be saved if we come out? I
:04:58. > :05:03.haven't gone through it any more than what you just said. If it
:05:04. > :05:05.doesn't stand up to the rigour, never use it, and I'm not sure
:05:06. > :05:13.Alistair Darling has done anything this morning other than what any
:05:14. > :05:17.politician would do. The trouble with politicians talking about this
:05:18. > :05:21.is they are skilled at getting people to vote, that is what they
:05:22. > :05:28.do. The first casualty in that fight is always the truth. I don't blame
:05:29. > :05:33.Johnson and Michael Gove for saying, if I saved this money, this is where
:05:34. > :05:37.I would spend it, and Remain saying you're not going to save that money.
:05:38. > :05:44.But we have to understand is that nobody knows. And one thing that
:05:45. > :05:48.nobody is saying is if you vote to remain, you are not voting for the
:05:49. > :05:52.status quo, you're voting for an entirely different sort of Europe.
:05:53. > :05:57.There will be an economic cost of staying in and of coming out. And if
:05:58. > :06:05.you're looking at the figures, and you are a businessman, if Vote Leave
:06:06. > :06:10.was a business... If the EU was a business it would be bust. And would
:06:11. > :06:16.Vote Leave be bussed if they have totalled up all these spending
:06:17. > :06:21.commitments from what is supposedly ?250 million a week. If it is true
:06:22. > :06:29.and I have pledged money they don't have, of course it won't happen. But
:06:30. > :06:34.who knows? We don't know, neither do they and neither do Remain. What I
:06:35. > :06:39.do know is that there will be an economic cost of hitching your wagon
:06:40. > :06:44.to yesterday's organisation in Asia's 21st century and there will
:06:45. > :06:49.be a market cost in the short term for coming out as well. If you think
:06:50. > :06:54.there will be a market cost, we will discuss that further, but on the
:06:55. > :06:59.politics, there is a Tory politician who has this morning said that Vote
:07:00. > :07:04.Leave can say that they're going to spend the money if Britain pulls out
:07:05. > :07:08.on these spending commitments because they have been made by Tory
:07:09. > :07:14.ministers so it can be true. Presumably he was making a political
:07:15. > :07:19.point and the answer is, politically, of course. Then you get
:07:20. > :07:23.into what we do in March which is listened to a budget and compare the
:07:24. > :07:27.alternative. I don't think it is right that politicians of both
:07:28. > :07:32.sides... I don't believe I want a Prime Minister who says I'm only
:07:33. > :07:36.looking after half the country. But you politicians on the other side
:07:37. > :07:41.saying it is a political debate. It isn't, it is about my grandchildren,
:07:42. > :07:46.which side of the world you want to working in their time. They should
:07:47. > :07:50.not be about an extra ?4.5 million should be available for subsidising
:07:51. > :07:54.theatres in five years' time. They are treating this as politics and
:07:55. > :07:59.immediate finances instead of looking out, down to microgeneration
:08:00. > :08:04.is about where Europe is, where is the economy, where is Asia's century
:08:05. > :08:08.and how you tool up for welfare, health care and pensions when the
:08:09. > :08:12.whole world is walking to the beat of a different drum. And both sides
:08:13. > :08:14.have had a go at things like pensions. We will talk about it
:08:15. > :08:15.further. The question for today is, what did
:08:16. > :08:19.European Council President Donald Tusk say Britain leaving the EU
:08:20. > :08:22.would lead to the destruction of? c) England's chances
:08:23. > :08:26.of winning Euro 2016. At the end of the show
:08:27. > :08:30.Digby will give Now, we have with us
:08:31. > :08:35.a former Trade Minister But while his former boss
:08:36. > :08:42.was strutting the stage yesterday, banging the drum for Remain,
:08:43. > :08:47.Digby is a businessman and former director general of the CBI,
:08:48. > :08:50.who is campaigning for Britain So what are the economic claims
:08:51. > :08:54.for and against our continued The Chancellor, George Osborne,
:08:55. > :08:58.has published Treasury analysis warning that a vote to leave
:08:59. > :09:01.is a vote for a DIY recession, with David Cameron later describing
:09:02. > :09:04.such a result as "a bomb under The Treasury analysis says that,
:09:05. > :09:11.in the worst circumstances, up to 820,000 jobs could be lost
:09:12. > :09:14.and growth could be up to 6% The IMF, OECD and IFS have also
:09:15. > :09:24.warned of a hit to the economy But the campaign group
:09:25. > :09:29.Economists for Brexit - made up of eight independent
:09:30. > :09:32.economists - suggests that leaving would see the UK economy
:09:33. > :09:35.actually grow more in 2020 They say that reduced EU regulation
:09:36. > :09:43.and better use of the money saved from not contributing to the EU
:09:44. > :09:45.budget would enable the UK The Remain campaign notes that,
:09:46. > :09:51.according to HMRC, 44% of British The Remainers say if we left
:09:52. > :09:59.that the EU could put up trade barriers, putting between 3
:10:00. > :10:01.and 4 million jobs linked to EU But critics say that
:10:02. > :10:09.because those jobs aren't linked directly to EU membership,
:10:10. > :10:12.we could do our own deal with the EU which would maintain levels of trade
:10:13. > :10:18.and safeguard employees. They also say that,
:10:19. > :10:23.while a member of the EU, the UK can't do its own trade deals
:10:24. > :10:26.with countries like America, India, or China - none of which currently
:10:27. > :10:30.have a trade deal with the EU. And the Leave side claim that EU
:10:31. > :10:33.regulation costs UK small businesses ?600 million a week and that
:10:34. > :10:35.removing this burden would allow Well, the Commons Business Committee
:10:36. > :10:45.has been talking to leading lights Here's a flavour of
:10:46. > :10:53.what they had to say. It is unprecedented to see so many
:10:54. > :10:57.FTSE 100 chairmen, chief executives, on behalf of their company,
:10:58. > :11:00.not in a personal capacity which is what they have done
:11:01. > :11:03.previously, to actually come out and say it is extraordinarily
:11:04. > :11:05.important for the future of Britain that we remain
:11:06. > :11:08.in the European Union. And of course these large businesses
:11:09. > :11:11.to employ 10 million people. It's 40% of all employment,
:11:12. > :11:14.over 50% of all turnover One of the things that concerns me
:11:15. > :11:23.about immigration, and I had this discussion with the Governor
:11:24. > :11:27.of the Bank of England a number of times last year,
:11:28. > :11:29.was about the downward Which at this point in the economic
:11:30. > :11:37.cycle should be rising now. I think for people in the country,
:11:38. > :11:41.that is one of the big concerns. Joining us to put the business
:11:42. > :11:44.case for remaining is Labour's Rachel Reeves,
:11:45. > :11:46.who shadowed both the Treasury and Work and Pensions departments
:11:47. > :11:48.during her frontbench career and is a former Bank
:11:49. > :12:00.of England economist. Welcome to the show. The CBI
:12:01. > :12:06.commissioned PWC to assist the economic impact of leaving the EU.
:12:07. > :12:11.If we remain, the economy could be 41% larger by 2030 but under one of
:12:12. > :12:17.the scenarios for leaving we strike free trade agreement and we would
:12:18. > :12:22.still grow by 39%. The difference is hardly game changing? It will be
:12:23. > :12:27.pretty game changing for people on ordinary incomes. If the economy
:12:28. > :12:30.grows more slowly than it would otherwise have done, that means less
:12:31. > :12:35.money at the end of the month to pay the rent and mortgage and the bills.
:12:36. > :12:40.But look at what will happen in the near term, what is already happening
:12:41. > :12:45.before we have even voted, and that is that sterling has fallen, stock
:12:46. > :12:48.markets have fallen, money is leaving the UK, business investment
:12:49. > :12:54.decisions are being postponed. What does it mean for ordinary people? We
:12:55. > :12:58.know what recessions mean because we saw it in 2008. Wages are falling or
:12:59. > :13:02.stagnating, people losing their homes and people losing their jobs.
:13:03. > :13:13.It is people on modest and middle incomes who always pay the highest
:13:14. > :13:16.price when economies falter and go into recession. If we make that
:13:17. > :13:18.decision in nine days, people should be under no illusions about what it
:13:19. > :13:21.means for the cost of living and jobs and growth. White should be
:13:22. > :13:26.risked even a slight shrinking in economic growth even if it is for
:13:27. > :13:28.the short term as the Vote Leave campaign is saying? Why should
:13:29. > :13:33.people be worried about the future of their jobs even in the short
:13:34. > :13:36.term? And if these scenarios are played out, there would be a
:13:37. > :13:45.shrinking and use it at the beginning you agreed. I see a
:13:46. > :13:49.perception causing a short-term job. Sterling has risen since March so
:13:50. > :13:57.please don't starve the alarmist about falling currency. It is at a
:13:58. > :14:04.two-month low. I said sterling and stock markets. It hasn't. Why did
:14:05. > :14:10.you say it has? It is at a two-month low. It is higher today than in
:14:11. > :14:18.March. But what happened before March? It has been fluctuating a
:14:19. > :14:23.lot. I want to deal in facts. Politicians come on here and save
:14:24. > :14:29.the pound has been falling, it hasn't. To answer your question,
:14:30. > :14:36.this is about the local competitiveness of our nation in
:14:37. > :14:42.Asia's century. We are hitched to an organisation that worked a treat
:14:43. > :14:45.between 1957 and 1990 and has failed - the 20 million people ever since.
:14:46. > :14:50.If we carry on like this, we will not be able to afford pensions and
:14:51. > :14:56.health care and welfare in 20 years' time will stop if somebody says, for
:14:57. > :15:00.a couple of years it's going to be not Armageddon and recession but
:15:01. > :15:05.difficult, but the reward is in 20 years you are globally competitive,
:15:06. > :15:10.it is very irresponsible of politicians... Would there be a
:15:11. > :15:14.reward after two years? Let's say there would be that short-term shock
:15:15. > :15:18.and sterling could fall and there might be some sort of downward
:15:19. > :15:19.pressure. If the economy was liberated, would that be something
:15:20. > :15:32.you could support? Look at what the Gordon Browner of
:15:33. > :15:36.the Bank of England has said: There will be a short-run cost to leaving
:15:37. > :15:39.the EU but there will be a long-run cost. We will no longer have access
:15:40. > :15:44.to the single market Yes you will. Brexit campaigners like Michael Gove
:15:45. > :15:48.and Boris Johnson say we will not be part of a single market. It doesn't
:15:49. > :15:53.mean we would not have access. You are either part of the single
:15:54. > :15:58.market, or you are not. ... You could negotiate access to it. Of
:15:59. > :16:04.course you can still trade but whether you have access in terms of
:16:05. > :16:08.a tariff-free trade, Brexiters are saying they don't want That if the
:16:09. > :16:13.single market means, what it means inner terms of wealth creation is
:16:14. > :16:18.zero tariff. Much more than that. On the services side, as you well know
:16:19. > :16:20.75% of our economy is services and the services directive isn't
:16:21. > :16:23.implemented in France, let alone anywhere else. The services
:16:24. > :16:28.directive doesn't work, Rachael. Don't talk over reach other. Go on,
:16:29. > :16:32.Rachael. In my constituency in Leeds, financial services is a huge
:16:33. > :16:36.part of our economy. Under the single market, there is pass porting
:16:37. > :16:42.rules, which means that companies who are registered here have access
:16:43. > :16:46.to be able to trade for the whole of the European Union. But it doesn't
:16:47. > :16:51.work. Well, explain the fact it doesn't work. I am on the board, one
:16:52. > :16:56.of my companies is an invoice company in London, we are trying to
:16:57. > :16:59.open in France. We have had French regulators say - we don't want
:17:00. > :17:04.British companies to do this. I have said there is a services directive,
:17:05. > :17:07.the single market. I hear Labour politicians tell me there is a
:17:08. > :17:12.single market I can make you. They say of course you can, take me to
:17:13. > :17:16.the court justice. I said I can't afford it. They say exactly. It is
:17:17. > :17:21.not going to happen. You don't know And neither do them. The single
:17:22. > :17:26.market is about zero tariff. It is much more than that. What would be
:17:27. > :17:30.the tariffs be? How high? At the moment, when there are tariffs,
:17:31. > :17:36.telepretty low No-one going to put them up from zero. The World Trade
:17:37. > :17:39.Organisation have said that it would be the worst-possible outcome - the
:17:40. > :17:44.worst possible outcome would be for us to leave the single market. What
:17:45. > :17:49.do they say the tariff levels would be? ? Different for different
:17:50. > :17:54.industries. In the car manufacturing it is between 10 and 12% Germany
:17:55. > :18:01.sell 1 million cars to British. The highest profit margin the in world
:18:02. > :18:05.is the British awe tow market dou. Think, Mercedes, BMW and Audi are
:18:06. > :18:10.going to I a plough Brussels to put a tariff on that, I don't think so.
:18:11. > :18:15.The point is, you have no idea what will happen? Neither have you and
:18:16. > :18:19.you sit well this aam laist stuff. You a typical middle age bloke who
:18:20. > :18:23.loves interrupting women. You don't know how to conduct yourself, Let me
:18:24. > :18:26.answer the question that Jo. Please answer the question and don't come
:18:27. > :18:31.out with all the stuff you normally do. There you go again. But,
:18:32. > :18:34.Rachael, answer. Off to your prejudice. Answer the specific
:18:35. > :18:38.question on tariffs. It is important, you don't know they would
:18:39. > :18:41.be put up to that level, either. The Brexiters like Gove and Johnson say
:18:42. > :18:47.they want to leave the single market, which means that we go on to
:18:48. > :18:50.WTO tariffs. Now we don't have, there is not a single example of a
:18:51. > :18:54.trade negotiation being done with the EU within two years. And of
:18:55. > :18:57.course, as soon as we leave the European Union, the Prime Minister
:18:58. > :19:00.says he will invoke article 50, which means in two years we will
:19:01. > :19:05.leave the European Union and after that period, we will be out of the
:19:06. > :19:09.single market, on the wcht TO tariffs We won't, we will negotiate
:19:10. > :19:14.T the German awe tow industry will never allow... And there is no
:19:15. > :19:20.example of... Let Digby finish. Go on. You finish that thought. Very
:19:21. > :19:25.kind of you. Tend of the day, the German motor industry is such an
:19:26. > :19:31.enormous lobbyist in Brussels it will never allow its awe tow
:19:32. > :19:37.industry not to tell into here on zero tariff, the auto industry. And
:19:38. > :19:41.the zero tariff, either in remain or leave, I have businesses where I
:19:42. > :19:46.want to get visas with Indians with engineering skills to come and work
:19:47. > :19:49.in my K I can't. Because you have a Government and the Labour Government
:19:50. > :19:53.would be the #15i78, they are saying - we are not going to give the visas
:19:54. > :19:58.outside, because we can't stop the ones coming inside. I couldn't care
:19:59. > :20:02.if they are Romanian engineers, it is not about where they come from,
:20:03. > :20:04.it is the skill. If you want competitiveness inside or outside,
:20:05. > :20:10.on a business footing, you have to allow us to fish in an immigration
:20:11. > :20:20.poof 100% of the world and not just 28%. It is an economic issue not
:20:21. > :20:24.immigration issue. One of the things raised by Tristan hunt on the
:20:25. > :20:29.discussion you had with him on is imrar ground is you wouldn't be able
:20:30. > :20:33.to get a deal with the EU unless you accept free movement of labour, do
:20:34. > :20:36.you think that's true? Yes. Why? Because, for example, with the
:20:37. > :20:39.Finance Minister in Germany and other countries have said - Digby
:20:40. > :20:43.says he wants to deal in facts, the fact is that no country has done a
:20:44. > :20:46.free trade agreement with the EU within two years. Canada has taken
:20:47. > :20:49.more than seven years. We are not Canada. And you would need the
:20:50. > :20:55.agreement of all 27 other Member States of the European Union to do
:20:56. > :20:58.any deal on access to their markets. Wouldn't that be a terrible
:20:59. > :21:03.disappointment for leave support zblerps if the country votes to
:21:04. > :21:07.leave the EU, a deal is for some sort of access, a good deal, on the
:21:08. > :21:12.single market but the quid pro quo has to be some sort of freedom of
:21:13. > :21:15.movement? And if there is a degree of freedom of movement based on
:21:16. > :21:19.skill what is wrong with that Free movement within the EU, you would
:21:20. > :21:23.sign up? I would tell you, if what was coming into Britain on offer,
:21:24. > :21:28.from inside or outside the EU was quality immigration and a lot of it,
:21:29. > :21:31.based on I will sk, I would put my hand up for, that it helps creating
:21:32. > :21:35.wealth to pay for schools Hain hospitals in Britain. What really
:21:36. > :21:39.does frustrate me is I have people in Brussels telling me that I can't
:21:40. > :21:42.fish in a pool of 100% of available labour and that diminishes my
:21:43. > :21:46.availability to be competitive and in 25 years' time, we will be doing
:21:47. > :21:49.stuff elsewhere and not Britain and you won't be able to afford the
:21:50. > :21:53.money you normally spend on your schools and hospitals. What do you
:21:54. > :21:58.say to that Well, I have two young children. I'm in my 30s, in 25
:21:59. > :22:01.years' time, I want my children to be able to go and live and work
:22:02. > :22:05.anywhere within the European Union. I want there to be good jobs and
:22:06. > :22:08.investment in this country and wanted to have first-rate public
:22:09. > :22:12.services. But at the moment, if you look like countries like Spain and
:22:13. > :22:15.Italy, for example and Greece, they all want to come here, the young
:22:16. > :22:19.people, because there are no jobs for them there at the moment. That's
:22:20. > :22:23.the reality Forestieri now? They are not skilled. There are huge problems
:22:24. > :22:27.within the European Union at the moment. I'm not saying everything is
:22:28. > :22:29.fievenlt I think this referendum is wake-up call to the European Union
:22:30. > :22:35.and British Government that things have to be done differently, on free
:22:36. > :22:41.dom of mo. , on jobs, on the whole approach to us a terry. - freedom of
:22:42. > :22:44.movement. We don't know what will happen if we walk away. If we leave,
:22:45. > :22:49.the European Union could fragment and break up and we will go back to
:22:50. > :22:52.the same situation that we saw in the 30s and 40s, and the instability
:22:53. > :22:56.there. If your plea that I don't interrupt you is valid, so is my
:22:57. > :23:01.request on on behalf of the viewers that you answer the question. The
:23:02. > :23:05.question was - why isn't business allowed to fish in a reservoir of
:23:06. > :23:11.100% of available talent in the world and why am I being told I can
:23:12. > :23:15.only get visa s for people who live in the European Union, or they don't
:23:16. > :23:18.need a veesia. If you look at net migration, there was more from this
:23:19. > :23:23.country from outside of the European Union. That's not the point. The
:23:24. > :23:27.point is I cannot get visaings on a universal basis. Would you want
:23:28. > :23:33.fewer people to come overall? No, I wouldn't. For me, it is not a
:23:34. > :23:36.numbers game. For me it is a skill, ability to create #w5e8, generate
:23:37. > :23:43.tax and pay for schools and Hobbings. -- create wealth. You are
:23:44. > :23:47.inhibiting businesses ability to create wealth by allowing anybody to
:23:48. > :23:51.come in from Europe and not allowed skilled people from overseas. I'm in
:23:52. > :23:55.the a Tory Government minister. Your Government did just the same. You
:23:56. > :24:00.were part of that Government Don't blame the Tories or Labour. This is
:24:01. > :24:05.not a tribal issue. It is the Tories who introduced a cap on numbers and
:24:06. > :24:09.have tried to squeeze out the number of non-EU migrants coming into the
:24:10. > :24:14.country. I think we need reform of free movement of labour. I don't
:24:15. > :24:17.think... Hang on a moment. While we have moved on to the territory of
:24:18. > :24:21.party politics. Stay with us, Rachael, because in the last half an
:24:22. > :24:28.hour, the Shadow Cabinet have gathered in a show of unity as they
:24:29. > :24:30.tried to press home Labour's message that Britain should remain inside
:24:31. > :24:34.the European Union. Conservatives Remainers have stepped
:24:35. > :24:36.aside this week amidst concern in their ranks that it's Labour
:24:37. > :24:39.voters who'll fail to turn out Here's what the Labour leader,
:24:40. > :24:42.Jeremy Corbyn, had to say. This is the Labour movement saying
:24:43. > :24:45.that we are voting to remain We are saying that because we want
:24:46. > :24:53.to defend the very many gains we have made by trade unions
:24:54. > :24:56.across Europe that have brought us better working conditions,
:24:57. > :25:17.longer holidays, less discrimination Jeremy Corbyn there. Franked by the
:25:18. > :25:25.shadow kab ne. Jeremy Corbyn has said he is only 7 to 7. Out of 10 on
:25:26. > :25:28.staying within the EU. Is he want of Leave's best assets? I don't think
:25:29. > :25:33.that's the answer he should have given. Others in the Shadow Cabinet
:25:34. > :25:36.are saying today that we are better off and Labour people are better off
:25:37. > :25:40.within the European Union because of the protection of workers' rights
:25:41. > :25:44.that are afforded by our membership of the European Union and because of
:25:45. > :25:47.the high-quality jobs that come to our country because of our
:25:48. > :25:51.membership. How worried are you, though, that Labour voters aren't
:25:52. > :25:55.going to turn out? It is a very real challenge. It is really important
:25:56. > :25:58.that Jeremy and the whole team are out there today, making the grossive
:25:59. > :26:03.case, the Labour case for our continued membership. -- the
:26:04. > :26:08.progressive case. What is it like for you on the doorsteps in your
:26:09. > :26:11.constituency? It is tough. My constituency in Leeds where averagep
:26:12. > :26:15.earnings are ?18,000 a year. A lot of people have seen over the last
:26:16. > :26:19.five-10 years, a real squeeze on living standards and income. Are
:26:20. > :26:24.they voting out? Many are. Is that Labour's failure? In many ways, it
:26:25. > :26:28.is. Because we need to make a compelling Labour case about
:26:29. > :26:32.good-quality jobs and investment, tackling some of the problems about
:26:33. > :26:37.wages being undercut and dealing, for example - one of the things we
:26:38. > :26:40.had in our last manifesto is no job should be able to advertise overseas
:26:41. > :26:43.before they are advertised in this country. Employment agencies and
:26:44. > :26:48.businesses are still able to do that. That means British workers not
:26:49. > :26:51.even having access to jobs. So it is really important in those last nine
:26:52. > :26:54.days, it is not just David Cameron and Osborne and the Tories making
:26:55. > :26:57.the case to stay in the European Union, but that we hear those Labour
:26:58. > :27:04.voices, including those trade union voices. What is the Labour message?
:27:05. > :27:08.Is it confused? You are a fan of ti. TP which is controversial for many
:27:09. > :27:15.within the Labour Party, whereas Jeremy Corbyn said he would veto
:27:16. > :27:20.that if it was a deal? So what is the Labour message on that? TITIP
:27:21. > :27:25.doesn't have to be a bad deal for Britain and British workers f it
:27:26. > :27:30.opens up jobs -- if it opens up jobs and investment it is a good thing
:27:31. > :27:34.for British export. Why is Jeremy Corbyn wanting to veto it? We said
:27:35. > :27:37.if it meant the privatisation of the NHS we would not support T we have
:27:38. > :27:40.had assurances from the United States and the European Union
:27:41. > :27:50.Commissioner that the health services, for example, will be
:27:51. > :27:58.exempt from those ti. -- from those TITIP laws. Well, he said he would
:27:59. > :28:00.veto it. Well, he hasn't. We want concern protections, for example,
:28:01. > :28:05.for the NHS and environment but let's not throw the baby out with
:28:06. > :28:10.the bath water. Free trade and bringing down the Paris barriers
:28:11. > :28:14.will mean cheapers prices for consumers, easing the cost of living
:28:15. > :28:17.pressures for many families and greater opportunities for British
:28:18. > :28:20.exspoerts but you asked me what was the labour case for staying in the
:28:21. > :28:25.European Union. It is about avoiding a race to the bottom b protecting
:28:26. > :28:32.workers' rights, crack down on tax avoidance as Gordon Brown said, and
:28:33. > :28:34.as Frances O'Grady, leader of the TUC said, about assuring
:28:35. > :28:38.high-quality jobs stay in the country. Can I ask you about it.
:28:39. > :28:42.ITIP? This makes people anxious about what it would mean in terms of
:28:43. > :28:49.opening up public services here. -- TITIP? Jeremy Corbyn has promised,
:28:50. > :28:55.so far, to veto T Rachael Reeve, certainly as it stands and if there
:28:56. > :28:58.was any indication that it might expose the NHS to American
:28:59. > :29:02.companies, for example? Where do you stand on this? In terms of the head
:29:03. > :29:07.looun I would be with right. I would say it has to be right to job your
:29:08. > :29:10.tariff barriers and to get more trade going to create in the medium
:29:11. > :29:13.term, more wealth for the country and therefore taxes and therefore,
:29:14. > :29:17.schools and hospitals. In terms of the NHS, which was the specific
:29:18. > :29:21.question, we all know that's a broken model. Not that it should,
:29:22. > :29:25.for a minute, ever go into the private sector but that we can't
:29:26. > :29:29.carry on with something created in 1947 to deal with a getting-older
:29:30. > :29:35.population. And people born today are going to live to be 100, you are
:29:36. > :29:39.not going to have 30-odd years with an organisation that wasn't built to
:29:40. > :29:41.do it. You have to change T the greatest way to change will be
:29:42. > :29:46.competition. You think done the right way, it would be the right
:29:47. > :29:49.thing to do I would use TITIP as a catalyst for getting change in the
:29:50. > :29:54.NHS. Could I ask you one question - when you said then - I want to stay
:29:55. > :29:59.in the European Union, to protect workers' rights, we have this most
:30:00. > :30:02.fabulous competitive automotive sector, fully unionised, completely
:30:03. > :30:07.unionised and applied Unite for the way they have dealt with our
:30:08. > :30:13.manufacturing. Ask the question. Nobody in their right mind is
:30:14. > :30:15.actually going to go back on the 40-hour week on agency directives
:30:16. > :30:19.and maternity and approximate ternity way. They woevenlt it is not
:30:20. > :30:23.in anybody's interests. There is no evidence. Why would any employer go
:30:24. > :30:27.back on that? And at the same time, when you are saying - we want it
:30:28. > :30:32.advertise jobs only in Britain, one of the things that free movement of
:30:33. > :30:36.labour at the moment is doing, is producing your race to the bottom
:30:37. > :30:41.because employers, especially small businesses are able to tap into poor
:30:42. > :30:45.people in Italy and Romania and give them low jobs. Answer that question.
:30:46. > :30:49.Well at the event we are talking about where Jeremy Corbyn is with
:30:50. > :30:53.the Shadow Cabinet Tom Watson has been talking to the BBC saying there
:30:54. > :30:55.should be controls on freedom of movement for EU migrants under any
:30:56. > :31:04.future Government. Is he right? Yes and I agree with what Ed balls
:31:05. > :31:09.said on this. Before the last election I talked about workers not
:31:10. > :31:15.having access to tax credits and benefit system until they have been
:31:16. > :31:20.here for at least four years. If you had to pay into the system before
:31:21. > :31:25.you draw down on it. You do need reform. Have wages being depressed?
:31:26. > :31:28.There are winners and losers from immigration and some people have
:31:29. > :31:32.lost out because they have been competing for jobs. This is a
:31:33. > :31:39.wake-up call to people and whatever the result in nine days, we need to
:31:40. > :31:44.reform the European Union. Workers' rights have been hard fought for and
:31:45. > :31:49.every step of the way... They have been opposed... There is no evidence
:31:50. > :31:52.that any Tory government or any government would roll back those
:31:53. > :31:56.rights. They are guaranteed because we are members of the EU. No,
:31:57. > :32:00.because the market would not have it any other way. Thank you for coming
:32:01. > :32:01.in. Now, if going to the polls once this
:32:02. > :32:04.month isn't enough for you, then you might envy the people
:32:05. > :32:07.of Tooting who have two opportunities to exercise
:32:08. > :32:09.their rights as citizens. The by-election that will be held
:32:10. > :32:15.there this Thursday was prompted by the elevation of its previous MP,
:32:16. > :32:18.Sadiq Khan, to the position And, as Adam reports,
:32:19. > :32:21.it's a part of South London that might be familiar to television
:32:22. > :32:24.viewers of a certain vintage as home to a certain, fictional,
:32:25. > :32:27.left-leaning citizen. This is where the BBC
:32:28. > :32:36.filmed the 70s sitcom about an old Marxist,
:32:37. > :32:41.Citizen Smith. Let's meet some of the people
:32:42. > :32:46.auditioning to be the area's new MP. Labour has tried to inject some
:32:47. > :32:49.adrenaline by selecting I'm going to be the lady that works
:32:50. > :32:56.with Sadiq Khan to make sure that we build affordable homes
:32:57. > :33:00.to buy and rent and I'm going to be Well, I am a Labour Party
:33:01. > :33:08.member, I am my own woman. This isn't about Corbyn or Cameron
:33:09. > :33:11.for me, it's about uniting as the Labour Party
:33:12. > :33:13.on the issues that matter. When the Tory candidate
:33:14. > :33:15.is not running for office, which he has done before,
:33:16. > :33:18.he runs a group that Generally it tends to be people
:33:19. > :33:22.in office jobs who want to go and get their hands dirty
:33:23. > :33:26.at the weekend and go and cut some It's good fun actually, going along,
:33:27. > :33:29.and any group that needs Setting up street festivals,
:33:30. > :33:35.those kinds of things, just to make the area a bit more fun
:33:36. > :33:38.and look a bit more spruce. Is that the lesser spotted Big
:33:39. > :33:41.Society? You might say that but I
:33:42. > :33:46.couldn't possibly comment. I found the Green candidate checking
:33:47. > :33:48.on a gadget she had installed It's a real problem,
:33:49. > :33:54.it's not just a fantasy Green problem, it's a problem
:33:55. > :33:57.that is affecting many people The state of the roads
:33:58. > :34:03.worries the Lib Dems too. We have been lobbying as a local
:34:04. > :34:06.party on those subjects, on safer streets, for years
:34:07. > :34:11.and nothing has been done. This is very much a Liberal topic
:34:12. > :34:17.and a Liberal vote to be made. Have you done one of those typical
:34:18. > :34:19.Lib Dem leaflets where you are pictured standing,
:34:20. > :34:23.pointing at a road? While the Ukip candidate will be
:34:24. > :34:32.glad when we are talking We have just had the GLA election,
:34:33. > :34:38.the mayoral election, and now we have the huge one
:34:39. > :34:42.on the 23rd of June so really this is like the little child,
:34:43. > :34:44.isn't it? But how will the contenders cope
:34:45. > :34:50.when I ask them to recreate the catchphrase of Tooting's
:34:51. > :34:52.favourite fictional son? The people of Tooting get the power
:34:53. > :35:23.to pick one of them on Thursday. And you can find a full list
:35:24. > :35:28.of candidates standing in the Tooting by-election
:35:29. > :35:32.on the BBC News website. EU officials have been accused
:35:33. > :35:35.of spending millions of pounds of taxpayers' money every year
:35:36. > :35:37.on "jollies and exorbitant An investigation by Vote Leave
:35:38. > :35:44.claims that the European Commission spent ?27 million on so-called
:35:45. > :35:49."luxury" just in 2014. The claims included
:35:50. > :35:56.?347,863 on private jets, including ?17,565 on the five star
:35:57. > :36:06.Shangri La Hotel in Singapore, has dismissed the allegations
:36:07. > :36:22.as "simply absurd". Earlier I spoke to the
:36:23. > :36:24.Labour MEP and former European Council spokesman,
:36:25. > :36:29.Richard Corbett. I started by asking him what he made
:36:30. > :36:33.of the claims. Well, let's look at the source
:36:34. > :36:36.of this for a start. It's Vote Leave, it's the Vote Leave
:36:37. > :36:39.campaign which has come up with some pretty dodgy figures
:36:40. > :36:41.and statistics in the past. But even if some of them
:36:42. > :36:44.were true, and actually, if you look at some of them,
:36:45. > :36:47.they are stretching it a bit, yes, ministerial meetings
:36:48. > :36:50.sometimes happen in hotels. Yes, some of those hotels may
:36:51. > :36:54.offer massage facilities. It doesn't mean any ministers used
:36:55. > :36:57.those facilities for heavens sake. But even if some of these
:36:58. > :36:59.claims were correct, of course they should be
:37:00. > :37:07.investigated and clamped down on. You don't think it's right that EU
:37:08. > :37:10.officials spent 222,716 If that claim is correct,
:37:11. > :37:15.it needs to be checked. What I suspect it is,
:37:16. > :37:17.is that ministerial meetings took Yes, ministerial meetings
:37:18. > :37:22.across the world take No-one would argue with that
:37:23. > :37:29.but I think it is the amounts. Is it justifiable to talk
:37:30. > :37:31.about 5-star hotels Should EU taxpayers be paying
:37:32. > :37:38.for expenses like that? If there is any extra luxuries
:37:39. > :37:40.involved that are not connected That is why these things
:37:41. > :37:45.should be investigated. But let's not forget,
:37:46. > :37:48.the EU used to be pretty bad at this and things have got quite
:37:49. > :37:50.a lot better. So if I give you some
:37:51. > :37:52.more examples. I rather suspect that some
:37:53. > :38:08.of them are made up, I mean, on golf, you may well look
:38:09. > :38:17.into that and find that a hotel where a ministerial meeting took
:38:18. > :38:19.place, perhaps, had That doesn't mean they spent
:38:20. > :38:22.their time playing But it looks good, doesn't it,
:38:23. > :38:28.if you put it in a press release and say all this money
:38:29. > :38:30.was spent at a golf venue! What about, in your position
:38:31. > :38:33.as an adviser to Herman Van Rompuy, the former president
:38:34. > :38:35.of the European Council, Or is he happy with something
:38:36. > :38:42.a little less glamorous? He was a very modest man
:38:43. > :38:45.and never sought any glamour And so he did stay in 5-star
:38:46. > :38:52.hotels or did he stay When he went to the G8
:38:53. > :38:58.summit in Washington, hosted by President Obama,
:38:59. > :39:00.they stayed in Camp David. But it wasn't his
:39:01. > :39:02.choice of venue. Some of it is labelled as routine
:39:03. > :39:08.administrative expenditure and you are quite right,
:39:09. > :39:10.of course organisations have to spend some money
:39:11. > :39:13.in terms of going away, meeting with other
:39:14. > :39:17.dignitaries abroad. But have you ever come across,
:39:18. > :39:20.in your time, any egregious expenses Not personally but I have read
:39:21. > :39:29.of things and auditors reports have The important thing
:39:30. > :39:32.is to be able to clamp down And there, the record
:39:33. > :39:37.in recent years, is that when abuse has taken place,
:39:38. > :39:40.the EU has got a lot better at clamping down on things,
:39:41. > :39:42.partly thanks to MEPs and the European Parliament asking
:39:43. > :39:45.questions and pinning them down. Partly thanks to the Court
:39:46. > :39:47.of Auditors, appointed by the member states,
:39:48. > :39:48.remember, which goes through things
:39:49. > :39:55.with a fine tooth comb. And it has now signed off the EU
:39:56. > :40:00.Council for the last nearly ten years, whereas in the past,
:40:01. > :40:03.year after year it refused to sign off the accounts because they
:40:04. > :40:05.were not good enough. Now they are good enough
:40:06. > :40:07.and that's an improvement. It doesn't look good in the public
:40:08. > :40:16.imagination, does it? Which is exactly why Vote Leave put
:40:17. > :40:21.together this dossier. And looking at their track record
:40:22. > :40:26.of claims and allegations, indeed in some cases fibs,
:40:27. > :40:29.I would take with a pinch of salt every one of those allegations
:40:30. > :40:34.until I have looked through and checked if there was any
:40:35. > :40:36.truth in them at all. Do you think it will do any damage
:40:37. > :40:39.to the Remain campaign? That's what it intended to do
:40:40. > :40:42.by them, of course, to focus away from the big economic arguments,
:40:43. > :40:44.the fact that leaving the European Union, the economic
:40:45. > :40:47.impact of that on Britain Almost all economic forecasters,
:40:48. > :40:53.who are usually all over the place but for once they all agree,
:40:54. > :40:56.that this would be a disaster for Britain if we left
:40:57. > :40:58.the European Union. They want to take
:40:59. > :41:11.attention away from that. Do you think a bit about cheap shot
:41:12. > :41:17.by Vote Leave? The biggest problem for me is only ?931 on chocolate! I
:41:18. > :41:22.don't think it is a cheap shot because it is exploiting a bigger
:41:23. > :41:26.thing which it is whether ?300,000 in a private jet, that is not the
:41:27. > :41:28.issue, the issue is trust and transparency. It took an
:41:29. > :41:34.investigation to find these figures, they are not on a website. People
:41:35. > :41:40.thinking this fulfilled my prejudices, unaccountable people
:41:41. > :41:44.spending my money. Do you think it is that bad? I expected it to be
:41:45. > :41:49.worse than those figures. They do have to spend money but they are
:41:50. > :41:56.accountable. They are missing the big one, which is ?100 million a
:41:57. > :42:01.year of everybody's money to move the parliament once a month from
:42:02. > :42:07.Brussels to Strasbourg to satisfy French pride. ?100 million to do
:42:08. > :42:10.something you don't need to do! There are moves to stop that
:42:11. > :42:15.happening. The French will make it difficult. It is like Labour saying
:42:16. > :42:20.we need to stop some free movement and they are right but eastern
:42:21. > :42:24.Europe won't agree. The trouble is this organisation is that you cannot
:42:25. > :42:28.reform it. He is being very straight about it and saying of course we
:42:29. > :42:30.need to root it out. It is how you do it that is the problem.
:42:31. > :42:33.Now, back in 1975 most Trade Unions were in favour of Britain
:42:34. > :42:36.Today most are campaigning to stay in.
:42:37. > :42:39.But a small number of them are campaigning to leave and there's
:42:40. > :42:41.been a lively debate about whether EU membership really
:42:42. > :42:46.We've invited trade unionists from both sides of the debate
:42:47. > :42:50.First, Manuel Cortes of the Transport Union -
:42:51. > :43:09.Let's face it, on 24th June, if we leave the EU, we won't be
:43:10. > :43:16.a step closer to a socialist Nirvana.
:43:17. > :43:19.Instead, we will have a vicious, vicious Tory Government whose loony
:43:20. > :43:21.fringe would have been boosted and determined to destroy
:43:22. > :43:24.all the gains people have made through our membership
:43:25. > :43:32.From paid holidays to restrictions on working time.
:43:33. > :43:34.From safer work places to maternity and parental leave.
:43:35. > :43:41.In the case of rail workers, the EU protections they currently
:43:42. > :43:48.enjoy, that allows them to keep their hard-fought terms
:43:49. > :43:50.and conditions when franchises change hands, will be under severe,
:43:51. > :43:52.That's why I will be campaigning extremely
:43:53. > :43:58.But in doing so, I will also be looking to win hearts and minds.
:43:59. > :44:00.Hearts and minds to create another Europe.
:44:01. > :44:03.A social Europe that everyone deserves.
:44:04. > :44:06.I strongly urge you to vote to stay in.
:44:07. > :44:09.And by working together, with ordinary people
:44:10. > :44:12.across the continent, another Europe, for the many,
:44:13. > :44:15.not the few, is not only possible, but it is firmly,
:44:16. > :44:31.Manuel Cortes of the TSSA union there making the case for Remain.
:44:32. > :44:34.Now Mick Cash of the other transport union, the RMT, with
:44:35. > :44:51.My union, RMT, opposes the UK's membership of the EU because it has
:44:52. > :44:55.a negative impact on industry and for workers.
:44:56. > :44:58.Our members have seen the impact of EU policies of liberalisation,
:44:59. > :45:03.deregulation and privatisation, which have devastated
:45:04. > :45:05.industries, including the UK's coal and steel sectors.
:45:06. > :45:08.The Tory Prime Minister, John Major, broke up and privatised British Rail
:45:09. > :45:14.This is one example of the bonfire public services, demanded by the EU
:45:15. > :45:22.As a public service union, how can we support this
:45:23. > :45:26.The EU has promoted the undercutting of wages and the social
:45:27. > :45:28.dumping of cheap labour, leading to the decimation
:45:29. > :45:31.The same is happening in the offshore energy industry.
:45:32. > :45:33.EU directives also undermine our trade union collective
:45:34. > :45:39.Some argue that we should stay and fight for something better,
:45:40. > :45:42.The idea of a social Europe is a myth.
:45:43. > :45:44.For all these reasons, the RMT is calling
:45:45. > :45:58.And one of his colleagues, Alex Gordon, joins me now and we're
:45:59. > :46:00.also joined by Cath Speight of the GMB union who is
:46:01. > :46:13.Welcome to both you. Alex Gordon, the TUC general section, Franciso
:46:14. > :46:18.Grady is warning in a peach there will be less money available to fund
:46:19. > :46:23.the NHS if the UK votes to leave the EU. It is aern with aing reiterate
:46:24. > :46:27.by the Chief Executive of the NHS, so what assurances can you give that
:46:28. > :46:30.there will be money for a costly public service? It is a costly
:46:31. > :46:33.public service and a service we are proud of. Most people in this
:46:34. > :46:36.country want to invest in, through their taxes, the danger to the NHS,
:46:37. > :46:42.comes from remaining in the European Union, and from the threat of the
:46:43. > :46:45.transatlantic trade and investment partnership, the EU-US trade deal
:46:46. > :46:49.that will open up the NHS for private health care companies from
:46:50. > :46:54.America. What evidence do you have it'll do that? It is absolutely
:46:55. > :46:57.clear from the very few leaks made from the proceedings in the
:46:58. > :46:59.negotiations, that that is the ageneral daft American negotiators.
:47:00. > :47:08.We have not signed up to that deal, yet? We haven't but it is being done
:47:09. > :47:14.in -- that is the agenda of the American negotiators. We haven't
:47:15. > :47:19.signed up to it. What due say an the argument around this partnership
:47:20. > :47:22.between the EU and US many Labour and union supporters are worried
:47:23. > :47:27.about it. We are working hard with the Labour MEPs to make sure that
:47:28. > :47:32.public services are exempt from TITIP and our services are protected
:47:33. > :47:38.but Alex's argument, if we believe that a Brexit vote would make our
:47:39. > :47:43.NHS and public services safer, with the Tory Government, with probably
:47:44. > :47:46.Boris or Michael Gove in charge, the Tory Government are already
:47:47. > :47:52.privatised the NHS by stealth. And if we think a Brexit vote we will be
:47:53. > :47:55.safe safer and the NHS will be safer in the Tory Government's hands
:47:56. > :47:58.they... They will claim they are not privatising it by stealth and it was
:47:59. > :48:01.opened up under a Labour Government initially to some sort of
:48:02. > :48:04.competition but on Kath's broader point, why do you think the NHS
:48:05. > :48:07.would be safer, particularly with a British gfted that could be a
:48:08. > :48:10.Conservative Government, that you wouldn't support? Well, the NHS
:48:11. > :48:15.isn't safe in Tory hands but of course the best way it make sure it
:48:16. > :48:18.is not in Tory hands is to vote to come out of the European Union? Why?
:48:19. > :48:24.They have said they'll spend more money. The Leigh campaign says
:48:25. > :48:28.they'll spend the money that goes to the EU on the NHS? That's a fine
:48:29. > :48:31.promise but it is a Conservative r Conservative Government with a
:48:32. > :48:37.majority of 12, they are deeply split. If we vote to come out of the
:48:38. > :48:41.EU, Cameron is out of office, he will be sacked by his own party and
:48:42. > :48:45.we'll have a general election. A clear message from Labour figures
:48:46. > :48:49.like John McDonnell are saying a Tory Brexit would impose further
:48:50. > :48:54.austerity cuts. It would be workers who would suffer because the economy
:48:55. > :48:58.would shrink and a loss of workers' rights, is he wrong? I think he is
:48:59. > :49:03.wrong. The fact is austerity is the programme of the European Commission
:49:04. > :49:06.and European Union. They have driven it relentlessly from Greece to
:49:07. > :49:09.Portugal and every country in between. Britain is not ex-tempt
:49:10. > :49:13.from austerity measures because we are not part of the eurozone. We
:49:14. > :49:17.still have to be part of stability and growth agreement and follow the
:49:18. > :49:21.recommendations from the European Commission issued every November.
:49:22. > :49:26.Britain is facing austerity because of EU policies and directives. What
:49:27. > :49:31.do you say? The example of Greece is clear to everybody, they screamed
:49:32. > :49:36.austerity. The UK is the fifth largest economy until the world. So
:49:37. > :49:42.say we can be compared with Greece is a bit silly. On austerity, it is
:49:43. > :49:47.a political L it was the political will of the Coalition Government and
:49:48. > :49:50.now the Tory Government to impose us a terry. Austerity doesn't go, you
:49:51. > :49:57.know to the very richest. -- to impose austerity. It is the very
:49:58. > :50:01.poorest in our country who have paid for us a terry. When you can give
:50:02. > :50:05.tax cuts to the richest and take ?30 from disabled people... So what is
:50:06. > :50:09.the EU doing? You talking here about national politics. What is your
:50:10. > :50:12.argument for remaining in the EU to protect those people that you say
:50:13. > :50:17.has suffered as a result of austerity? The EU needs changes and
:50:18. > :50:22.reforming, we not saying in GMB it is perfect and we have to stay. We
:50:23. > :50:25.have to stay in it to reform T we want a social Europe that looks
:50:26. > :50:28.after workers, whether in the UK or Spain or Germany or anywhere else
:50:29. > :50:35.and that looks after the most vulnerable in society. Do you think
:50:36. > :50:41.workers, or British wages have been depressed, kept lower because of
:50:42. > :50:47.people coming from EU countries? Well, when a business can go to
:50:48. > :50:50.Romania or any other of the eastern European countries and advertise
:50:51. > :50:54.jobs there, before they have been advertised in this country, then,
:50:55. > :50:59.yes. That's why you are putting... Why do you want it stay in the EU?
:51:00. > :51:02.We are already looking at reform. The commission have agreed to look
:51:03. > :51:06.at the posting of workers' directive, which means that a woke
:51:07. > :51:10.coming from another part of the EU can be paid what they would have
:51:11. > :51:13.been paid in their own country, instead of being paid what they
:51:14. > :51:16.should be paid in this country. We are looking for an even playing
:51:17. > :51:21.field. Therefore, it is the exploiters we should go after, not
:51:22. > :51:25.the people being exploited. Let's look at sterling, Alex Gordon, you
:51:26. > :51:31.retweeted on June 11th that sterling fell by more than 1% against the
:51:32. > :51:33.dollar as traders showed the independent poll showing country
:51:34. > :51:37.vote towards the Leave. You are on record saying a fall in a pound
:51:38. > :51:43.would be a good thing. Why? It is overvalued. It makes exports very
:51:44. > :51:48.unaffordable. The fact is that the current exchange rate of ?1 is set
:51:49. > :51:51.for the interests of the City of London and the banks that want cheap
:51:52. > :51:54.money washing in and out. The interests of ordinary people in
:51:55. > :51:56.Britain is not the same as the interests of the banks. We should
:51:57. > :52:00.have healthy manufacturing sector that. Would be assisted by a fall in
:52:01. > :52:02.the value of the pound. All right. We are going to leave it there.
:52:03. > :52:07.Thank you both very much. Now, it probably hasn't escaped your
:52:08. > :52:09.notice that we're in the middle And there are strict rules
:52:10. > :52:17.for broadcasters to balance the arguments on each side
:52:18. > :52:20.of the debate. As you saw demonstrated earlier on
:52:21. > :52:22.in the show. So how does the BBC
:52:23. > :52:24.going about doing that? The BBC at Westminster
:52:25. > :52:28.on a Wednesday. It's midday and Prime Minister's
:52:29. > :52:30.Questions. Everyone is busy organising
:52:31. > :52:36.a disco for afterwards - you get the drinks I'll
:52:37. > :52:40.get the crisps. No, not that kind of disco,
:52:41. > :52:48.it is the shorthand we use to describe a discussion
:52:49. > :52:50.on a programme, but, how do you make sure
:52:51. > :52:52.you get the right people? In the Daily Politics' studio,
:52:53. > :52:54.like every Wednesday, two senior MPs standing by to say
:52:55. > :52:57.who won PMQs. We have to balance political
:52:58. > :53:01.parties and viewpoints, particularly in the run-up
:53:02. > :53:03.to something as important So today, for example we had
:53:04. > :53:08.Labour's Lisa Nandy, part of the Shadow Cabinet -
:53:09. > :53:11.firmly behind the Remain camp. And former Defence Secretary,
:53:12. > :53:14.Liam Fox for the Conservatives. Now although he is not a Cabinet
:53:15. > :53:17.minister, he represents the Leave We did the same last week
:53:18. > :53:22.but in reverse. We had a Conservative
:53:23. > :53:25.minister for Remain, Ed Vaizey and we had a Labour
:53:26. > :53:29.leaver, Kate Hoey. Kate Hoey has popped up again around
:53:30. > :53:32.the corner, she is discoing with Patrick McLaughlin,
:53:33. > :53:33.the Transport Secretary The World at One, this
:53:34. > :53:40.is Shaun Ley at Westminster. Hang on, there are hardly any
:53:41. > :53:48.of them left any more. How come he gets to sit
:53:49. > :53:51.at the top table? He's a former minister
:53:52. > :53:53.from the Coalition Government. He is one of the handful of plucky
:53:54. > :53:56.Liberal Democrat survivors Nonetheless, they are still
:53:57. > :54:01.a presence at Westminster and still obviously a political
:54:02. > :54:04.presence in the country. But if you were a listener
:54:05. > :54:06.who supported the Greens or SNP, for example, you wouldn't think
:54:07. > :54:09.that was a balanced panel. To which my response would be,
:54:10. > :54:12.we have hadded SNP on and They are now the third largest
:54:13. > :54:15.party at Westminster. It is absolutely right
:54:16. > :54:18.that they should be a regular They actually are probably
:54:19. > :54:22.on more frequently than That wouldn't have been the case
:54:23. > :54:26.in the last Parliament. As for Ukip, they got almost
:54:27. > :54:30.4 million votes but earned them a single MP, Douglas Carswell
:54:31. > :54:34.and so he has made one appearance on the World At One PMQs' panel
:54:35. > :54:36.in the past six months, although Ukipers have been
:54:37. > :54:38.interviewed for other Back in the office, the producers
:54:39. > :54:44.are grappling with how to fit a lot of politics
:54:45. > :54:48.into not a lot of air time. You cannot rely on the stopwatch
:54:49. > :54:51.rule of politics which says you give 30 seconds for him and 30
:54:52. > :54:54.seconds for her. In 30 seconds somebody might say
:54:55. > :54:57.all they need to say. In 30 seconds, somebody else
:54:58. > :54:59.might barely get going. And look, even the microphones
:55:00. > :55:04.in the studio are balanced We've had Cass the Psychic Cat,
:55:05. > :55:17.who plumped for Remain by the way, we've had the pollsters -
:55:18. > :55:20.they're sitting on the fence - but could it actually be
:55:21. > :55:22.the bookmakers who can most accurately predict the result
:55:23. > :55:26.of the EU referendum? Well, Matthew Shaddick,
:55:27. > :55:30.who runs political betting at Ladbrokes,
:55:31. > :55:39.is out on College Green Nice and big so I can read T what
:55:40. > :55:43.are the odds at the moment? We are currently showing 8-13 will he main
:55:44. > :55:48.and 5-4 Leave. Big move for Leave overnight. That implies we think
:55:49. > :55:52.there is a 42% chance that the UK is going to vote to Leave the European
:55:53. > :55:56.Union. As you say a major move, certainly since the last time I had
:55:57. > :56:00.a look at the odds. What due base that prediction on? . Mostly it is
:56:01. > :56:02.based on the amount of money taking from our customers, which has
:56:03. > :56:08.shifted heavily towards Leave over the last few days. That chance was
:56:09. > :56:12.only 25% on Monday and we're probably only one very good poll for
:56:13. > :56:16.Leave away from them becoming favourites to win the vote. What do
:56:17. > :56:20.you think is driving people to put money on Leave? The pos have been
:56:21. > :56:25.more favourable for them this week. I guess also the Sunjic coming out
:56:26. > :56:30.for Leave overnight -- the Sun coming out. No big surprise there.
:56:31. > :56:34.Who is placing the bet and does it skew the predictions? I don't think
:56:35. > :56:37.so. I think it is a wide cross section of Ladbrokes' customers and
:56:38. > :56:42.people betting for the first time. The nearer you get to the vote, the
:56:43. > :56:45.more we will see people who perhaps aren't that interested in politics,
:56:46. > :56:49.but perhaps have a strong view on this vote, coming out to have a bet.
:56:50. > :56:53.I guess those people are more likely to be on the Leave side. Let's test
:56:54. > :56:58.your track record. How well did you do in the general election? Not too
:56:59. > :57:01.bad on some days, on polling day, the polls were saying it would be a
:57:02. > :57:04.dead heat between Labour and the Tories but the betting market was
:57:05. > :57:09.saying there was an 80% chance that the Tories would be the biggest
:57:10. > :57:13.party. I can't say we did much better than anybody else at spotting
:57:14. > :57:18.the Tory majority. We didn't do well at that. That cost us about ?1
:57:19. > :57:22.million. It cost you ?1 million Yes, not a good day for us. Are you a
:57:23. > :57:27.betting man? Aim know not actually. I don't do that. Matthew... Will you
:57:28. > :57:32.on this occasion. I'm interested in this, do you have any big bets on
:57:33. > :57:37.either side. Don't tell me it is not our business on which side you went
:57:38. > :57:43.on. What is your biggest bet? This week we had somebody in a shop on
:57:44. > :57:49.Dover having ?10,000 on Leave. Numerous votes in the 10s and 20,000
:57:50. > :57:56.in Remain. Last week Nigel Farage popped into a shot and had ?1,000.
:57:57. > :58:00.The other question is What is the volume of money... We have run out
:58:01. > :58:02.of time. I'm the presenter. We have run out of time. You will have to
:58:03. > :58:05.ask that next time. And I mentioned earlier that Cass
:58:06. > :58:08.the Psychic Cat plumped for Remain But it's since emerged
:58:09. > :58:12.that the feline has failed at the first hurdle,
:58:13. > :58:14.incorrectly predicting an England win in last Saturday's
:58:15. > :58:15.match against Russia. There's just time before we go
:58:16. > :58:20.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, what did
:58:21. > :58:23.European Council President Donald Tusk say Britain leaving the EU
:58:24. > :58:25.would lead to the destruction of? c) England's chances
:58:26. > :58:36.of winning Euro 2016. I couldn't let the England team take
:58:37. > :58:43.my dog for a walk. They can't hang on to a lead! Boom, boom.
:58:44. > :58:47.Oh, dear Although grandiose and alarmist, it is the destruction of
:58:48. > :58:51.western civilisation. Do you think it might have been an everat the
:58:52. > :58:56.same time? Just a tad. That's it for today. Thank you to
:58:57. > :58:59.all of our guests, especially Digby for being Guest of the day. That's
:59:00. > :59:01.it from us, the 1.00 Hello. Today we're road-testing
:59:02. > :59:05.the BBC iPlayer Kids app.