:00:39. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Immigration takes centre stage in the EU referendum debate
:00:44. > :00:45.again as David Cameron and Boris Johnson are forced
:00:46. > :00:54.Parliament is recalled to allow MPs and peers to pay tribute to Labour
:00:55. > :00:59.We'll hear from some of those who worked with her.
:01:00. > :01:02.Could Britain look a bit like this if we vote to Leave on Thursday?
:01:03. > :01:06.A Norwegian politician tells us why we have nothing fear
:01:07. > :01:10.from life outside the EU. And as the UK embarks
:01:11. > :01:12.upon a new chapter, we look back at Britain's ambivalent
:01:13. > :01:26.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:27. > :01:29.of the programme today are the Labour MP and Leave
:01:30. > :01:31.campaigner, Kate Hoey and the Remain Campaigner
:01:32. > :01:39.First this afternoon, Turkey and its prospects of joining
:01:40. > :01:42.the European Union have become the issue in the campaign again.
:01:43. > :01:45.Last night, David Cameron faced a Question Time audience.
:01:46. > :01:49.This is what he had to say on the question of whether he would
:01:50. > :01:58.If this was going to happen in the next couple of years
:01:59. > :02:00.I would not support it, but it's not going to.
:02:01. > :02:03.This is about 30, 40 years' time and I'm not going to be
:02:04. > :02:05.Prime Minister in 30 or 40 years' time.
:02:06. > :02:09.As I say, people who have decided to vote Leave,
:02:10. > :02:11.obviously it's a choice, it's a referendum, but to do it
:02:12. > :02:14.on the basis of Turkey joining the EU, you'd be voting to leave
:02:15. > :02:19.an organisation, to damage our economy, on the basis of something
:02:20. > :02:29.Nick Herbert, David Cameron says it is a lie that Turkey is about to
:02:30. > :02:33.join the EU so why is there, according to the British Embassy in
:02:34. > :02:37.Ankara, a dedicated team working on projects to improve Turkey's
:02:38. > :02:41.prospect of joining the EU? That is from the Amazon itself. I think it's
:02:42. > :02:45.simply not true that they are imminently going to join the EU or
:02:46. > :02:48.that it is likely to happen in the disabled future, perhaps not in my
:02:49. > :02:53.little lifetime, perhaps not the decades. This has been going since
:02:54. > :02:57.1977, Turkey has got to go through an enormous number of procedures
:02:58. > :03:01.before it could qualify to join. Why didn't David Cameron rule it out?
:03:02. > :03:05.Diplomatically, it makes sense to try to move Turkey more towards the
:03:06. > :03:10.West and that has been agreed by all sides for very long time including
:03:11. > :03:16.prominent leave campaigners who are now installing virtues of this like
:03:17. > :03:20.Boris himself. Would that decide it? The problem is the Prime Minister
:03:21. > :03:22.feels to rule it out implies the Simonet and that he was therefore
:03:23. > :03:27.ruling out something that was imminently going to happen. It is
:03:28. > :03:31.not. No cereus person thinks this will happen for decades. Of course,
:03:32. > :03:35.every country has a veto and it is very likely that other countries
:03:36. > :03:43.would veto Turkey's membership. This is a red herring, as we have seen
:03:44. > :03:45.the red herring of the EU army, the amount we allegedly sent to
:03:46. > :03:47.Brussels. Identity why the Leave campaign cannot campaign on the true
:03:48. > :03:51.issues, rather than invent all of these scare stories, in -- imminent
:03:52. > :03:56.prospect of things happening that are not going to people know it's
:03:57. > :04:00.not true. But it is government policy as it stands. It has been
:04:01. > :04:04.since the 80s, the policy of all governments to move Turkey to the
:04:05. > :04:07.position, and that clearly, diplomatically make sense to try to
:04:08. > :04:12.get them to embrace human rights and so on. It obviously makes sense.
:04:13. > :04:14.It's not working. Yes, they are moving in the opposite direction so
:04:15. > :04:20.they are moving further away from the prospect of joining the EU. Kate
:04:21. > :04:24.Hoey, it's not going to happen, you can't sit and they Turkey is about
:04:25. > :04:30.the joint EU. The point is, David Cameron goodwill it out because it
:04:31. > :04:33.is EU policy for Teddy and four other countries, including Macedonia
:04:34. > :04:37.and Albania, who are ahead of deadly. But daddy is the country
:04:38. > :04:41.your campaign has put on posters. They have mentioned all the
:04:42. > :04:45.countries, actually, I know I have. The veto thing, which Nick said is
:04:46. > :04:49.our great weapon, we know what happens within the European Union,
:04:50. > :04:53.vetoes, countries are literally bought off, they are bought off,
:04:54. > :04:56.there are one or two countries who don't want another to join and then
:04:57. > :04:59.it comes to the situation and they all, because they are part of a
:05:00. > :05:04.club, they will eventually come round to what the commission has
:05:05. > :05:09.decided. Is it imminent? Are they going to join in the next year? If
:05:10. > :05:12.we vote to leave, on Thursday, we are not going to be leaving
:05:13. > :05:16.imminently either come it will take awhile for the details to be worked
:05:17. > :05:20.out. I think we are quite right to say this is an absolute possibility,
:05:21. > :05:24.that it will happen in the near future. But an absolute possibility
:05:25. > :05:30.it might happen in the future is not the same as saying that they are to
:05:31. > :05:34.join? Do you agree that is scaremongering? I've not personally
:05:35. > :05:38.got up and said Turkey will join tomorrow. They have been trying
:05:39. > :05:41.since 1980s in. The way Europe works, the viewers need to
:05:42. > :05:45.understand that it is a way of working which, once the commission
:05:46. > :05:49.has decided something is going to happen, by hook or by crook, they
:05:50. > :05:54.get it to happen. We will not, as one country out of 28, be able to
:05:55. > :06:02.stop that happening. Of course we can, we can veto it. We will not
:06:03. > :06:05.stop it happening. If at the time we decided the wrong thing, we have a
:06:06. > :06:08.veto and all the other countries that have major concerns like France
:06:09. > :06:10.will have a veto so the idea they will get browbeating is nonsense.
:06:11. > :06:12.It's not going to happen and the campaign knows it. Going on to
:06:13. > :06:15.business, there's been a line-up of businesses and the executive
:06:16. > :06:19.chairman of the Premier League calling for people to vote Remain,
:06:20. > :06:22.Richard screwed a more telling the BBC every Premier League club wants
:06:23. > :06:25.Britain to remain in the EU. Sir Richard Branson has warned that
:06:26. > :06:30.Brexit would be devastating for the long-term prosperity to the UK.
:06:31. > :06:39.Nissan, Jaguar Land Rover, Toyota and BMW as well. That's quite a
:06:40. > :06:41.persuasive list. And I'm sure tomorrow we will get another list of
:06:42. > :06:44.people coming out. I'm sure the Prime Minister has something to pull
:06:45. > :06:48.out of the hat. I thought you meant your site... Shouldn't businesses
:06:49. > :06:52.have a say? Small businesses are not represented by people like Richard
:06:53. > :06:56.Branson and Toyota. Small businesses are very keen to get rid of the
:06:57. > :07:02.regulations and the directives that have really affected them. How many
:07:03. > :07:05.small businesses? I don't... We know on Thursday, this idea in the media
:07:06. > :07:10.that everyone always have to have exactly this and that. If you are
:07:11. > :07:14.claiming small businesses, you sound like you are saying all small
:07:15. > :07:17.businesses. I know that small businesses in Northern Ireland, in
:07:18. > :07:20.the end, they were not able to take a position to say they wanted to
:07:21. > :07:26.Remain because small businesses did not want it to happen. How crucial
:07:27. > :07:29.is the campaign to get big businesses, because they are, the
:07:30. > :07:34.ones I have met, to get big business leaders to say you must remain? It's
:07:35. > :07:38.not just big business, it's big and small and the CBI survey of small
:07:39. > :07:41.businesses than a substantial majority, 80% saying they wanted to
:07:42. > :07:44.remain. It is not just those that read with Europe, either, numerous
:07:45. > :07:55.that they are. It is also the concern about the wider stability of
:07:56. > :07:57.the economy. It is quite wrong to say that there is some how a divide
:07:58. > :08:00.between big and small business on this. There is widespread concern.
:08:01. > :08:02.Some big businesses also want to leave. You have to be careful...
:08:03. > :08:05.Don't talk over each other. We have to be get for not present a
:08:06. > :08:08.distorted picture. Some may take a different view and they are entitled
:08:09. > :08:12.to it but the vast majority want remain and it is not just businesses
:08:13. > :08:17.but trade union leaders as well. You were mentioning some of the big
:08:18. > :08:19.businesses. There are some very big businesses and entrepreneurial
:08:20. > :08:24.businesses, dyes and sell more vacuum cleaners in Germany than any
:08:25. > :08:30.of the other manufacturers of vacuum cleaners, there are some huge
:08:31. > :08:32.companies that want... Some. In the end, these decisions are taken by
:08:33. > :08:38.those running those businesses and it is in big business' interest to
:08:39. > :08:41.stay in the EU because they stop the competition from the smaller
:08:42. > :08:46.companies and businesses and the global corporations can drive down
:08:47. > :08:54.the wages of working people. This is... Is that what is happening? Is
:08:55. > :08:57.this the kind of campaign that feeds this idea that Remain is about
:08:58. > :09:00.elitism, about big business? It just isn't true, Beattie wrote to
:09:01. > :09:03.employees with its trade unions, having consulted about this, the
:09:04. > :09:10.trade unions themselves are campaigning against... A majority of
:09:11. > :09:14.them are, like the majority of businesses are concerned. Of the
:09:15. > :09:17.smaller and medium-sized businesses in my constituency, a engineering
:09:18. > :09:20.company growing and employing 300 people locally and they are
:09:21. > :09:25.desperately concerned because they export to the EU. The idea this is
:09:26. > :09:29.all about big this... It is about jobs and livelihoods. I know people
:09:30. > :09:32.who are still tied in with all those regulations who support leaving. We
:09:33. > :09:33.are going to leave it there for the moment because we've got the whole
:09:34. > :09:35.programme to do this. The question for today is former
:09:36. > :09:39.Conservative Party Chairman, Baroness Warsi announced her
:09:40. > :09:40.defection this morning, but what has she apparently
:09:41. > :09:42.defected from and to? Was it a) from the Conservative
:09:43. > :09:45.Party to the Labour Party, b) from supporting Bradford Bulls
:09:46. > :09:48.rugby league team to Leeds Rhinos, c) from Vote Leave to
:09:49. > :09:51.the Remain Campaign, or d) from the Rebel Alliance
:09:52. > :09:58.to the Dark Side in Star Wars? At the end of the show,
:09:59. > :10:03.Nick and Kate will give Yes, you can save your mirth and
:10:04. > :10:08.jokes for the end! Immigration is centre stage again
:10:09. > :10:11.in the Referendum debate today, with campaigners on both sides
:10:12. > :10:14.of the debate being forced to defend Yesterday, Jeremy Corbyn told
:10:15. > :10:19.the BBC there could be no upper limit on the number of people coming
:10:20. > :10:22.into the UK while freedom And last night, the Prime Minister
:10:23. > :10:30.struggled to defend his record on immigration, describing
:10:31. > :10:32.the Conservatives' manifesto pledge to keep annual net migration
:10:33. > :10:36."in the tens of thousands" as an "ambition" rather
:10:37. > :10:39.than a commitment. Remain campaigner Gisela Stuart
:10:40. > :10:43.called on David Cameron to abandon this manifesto pledge if he wins
:10:44. > :10:47.the referendum on Thursday, saying he cannot continue
:10:48. > :10:50.to promise to do something Overall net migration
:10:51. > :10:56.currently stands at 333,000, Ukip, who are also campaigning
:10:57. > :11:05.to leave the EU, have been widely criticised after unveiling a poster
:11:06. > :11:08.showing a queue of migrants and refugees with the slogan
:11:09. > :11:13."Breaking Point". Nigel Farage defended the poster,
:11:14. > :11:16.saying "It was the truth. It was the direct result
:11:17. > :11:18.of what Angela Merkel But yesterday, Vote Leave's Boris
:11:19. > :11:24.Johnson tried to calm the immigration row,
:11:25. > :11:26.telling a rally in London he was pro-immigration
:11:27. > :11:29.and pro-immigrants, and calling for an amnesty for illegal migrants
:11:30. > :11:43.who have been in the UK Nick Herbert, is designer Stuart
:11:44. > :11:46.writes to call on the Prime Minister to abandon that target of reducing
:11:47. > :11:52.net migration to the tens of thousands if he wins the referendum?
:11:53. > :11:55.Know, and the Prime Minister repeated what was in the manifesto,
:11:56. > :11:58.the wording ambition was in the manifesto and it remains the
:11:59. > :12:02.ambition. Once the euro zone economies get going again, then it
:12:03. > :12:05.would be perfectly possible to achieve it. What we know has
:12:06. > :12:11.happened is that only in relatively recent years, as our economy been
:12:12. > :12:14.going so well after the recovery, we created 2.4 million jobs, the vast
:12:15. > :12:17.majority for UK nationals and the Eurozone economies have been flat
:12:18. > :12:22.and had real difficulties. People have been coming to work. The point
:12:23. > :12:27.the Prime Minister keeps making is that the wrong way to deal with the
:12:28. > :12:30.pressures of net migration, he's announced what I think is the right
:12:31. > :12:34.way which is lots of benefit changes to make things fairer. The wrong way
:12:35. > :12:41.would be to quit the single market, with damage to Aragon me, damage --
:12:42. > :12:43.our economy, damage to growth in the economy and damage to living
:12:44. > :12:47.standards and our ability to fund public services. That is not what
:12:48. > :12:51.the British public want when they raise perfectly legitimate concerns
:12:52. > :12:55.about migration levels. Why do you want to stick to a target of tens of
:12:56. > :12:58.thousands in terms of net migration? You are nowhere near it, you've
:12:59. > :13:02.never been near it and in fact, it's been going in one direction. You've
:13:03. > :13:11.made a promise you cannot keep if Britain stays in the EU. Believe we
:13:12. > :13:14.can, that's not true. You can still get down to the tens of thousands in
:13:15. > :13:17.ten years? 20 years? The Prime Minister has not said when because
:13:18. > :13:21.it's not fully within our control and partly depends on people leaving
:13:22. > :13:24.the country, of course. As recently as 2008, migration from the EU was
:13:25. > :13:28.within balance which shows you can do it, over half of the level of net
:13:29. > :13:32.migration at the moment is fully within our control because it comes
:13:33. > :13:37.from outside the EU. And which way is that going as well? As the Prime
:13:38. > :13:41.Minister said, it is challenging to control that as well but remember,
:13:42. > :13:47.Michael Gove... It's a worthless target because all you do is raise
:13:48. > :13:51.expectations. I'm surprised that Gisela Stuart said we should abandon
:13:52. > :13:54.it because Michael Gove said that would be the Leave campaign's
:13:55. > :13:58.target, that level of net migration as well which presumably means he
:13:59. > :14:02.was trying to reduce migration from outside the EU which is fully within
:14:03. > :14:07.our control. Let's take Nick Herbert's point, we come out of the
:14:08. > :14:11.EU and therefore, we are not bound by freedom of movement, net
:14:12. > :14:16.migration could still be close to 200,000 per year. Is that what you
:14:17. > :14:19.would expect? I think the point is that then, we as a country decide
:14:20. > :14:24.Hammond people we want to come and we can be tougher or less tough,
:14:25. > :14:30.depending on the kind of skills we need and what we want in terms of
:14:31. > :14:35.numbers. -- can decide how many people. Nobody on the Leave side
:14:36. > :14:40.that I have come across is against immigration but what we can't have
:14:41. > :14:44.is 27 other countries being able to come into this country without
:14:45. > :14:48.any... And people from here can go to all of those countries. Without
:14:49. > :14:52.any idea of how many are coming and we discriminate against the rest of
:14:53. > :14:57.the world. Would you like to see more people come from outside the
:14:58. > :15:00.EU? Yes, I would I would like to see some of my Afro-Caribbean and Asian
:15:01. > :15:03.constituents being able to bring people in if they have the right
:15:04. > :15:08.skills and we need them. That is why the Australian type, I would call it
:15:09. > :15:12.the British points system would be a really good system. It has not
:15:13. > :15:17.worked particularly well until now. It has in Australia. But we have a
:15:18. > :15:21.points system here. Nick knows because he was in the Home Office
:15:22. > :15:26.that one time, you know, I have constituents who were due to be
:15:27. > :15:30.deported, 12, 13, 14 years ago and have never been deported. There are
:15:31. > :15:33.all these people in this country who have been here a very long time and
:15:34. > :15:37.if we were to leave, I think the idea that those people who have been
:15:38. > :15:41.here a very long time and you can't work and who are contributing
:15:42. > :15:46.nothing should actually be able to stay here. So you would support the
:15:47. > :15:49.amnesty? It's an interesting idea and it is certainly clear that we
:15:50. > :15:56.are not against immigration but we want to control it into the country.
:15:57. > :16:01.Jeremy Corbyn was being truthful yesterday when he said there cannot
:16:02. > :16:05.be an upper limit of migration because we can't control it. That is
:16:06. > :16:11.actually the truth. Freedom of movement from within the EU. That's
:16:12. > :16:18.fundamental to being in a single market. So why don't you say that?
:16:19. > :16:22.That is a fundamental freedom. What the Prime Minister has said is you
:16:23. > :16:25.have a right to work and you do not have a right to claim and therefore
:16:26. > :16:31.the changes that he announced our common-sense. They are that you have
:16:32. > :16:34.to do be looking for work, you can't get benefit while you're looking for
:16:35. > :16:41.work, if we don't go job within six months... You can get benefits after
:16:42. > :16:46.three months. He changed it so you don't claim benefits. That's not
:16:47. > :16:51.what David Cameron has said. Well common-sense measures which people
:16:52. > :16:54.would say is common-sense. Kate made two very interesting claims that you
:16:55. > :16:58.would like to see migration from outside EU which already means more
:16:59. > :17:05.than half of our migration, go up. She wanted to increased. And the
:17:06. > :17:10.second thing, she said nobody on the Leave side of anti-migration for the
:17:11. > :17:14.new Tallaght to Nigel Farage. She is talking about the Vote Leave
:17:15. > :17:18.campaign. I'm differentiating between migrants and asylum seekers
:17:19. > :17:23.and refugees. That is where this whole debate has got confused.
:17:24. > :17:31.Between genuine refugees and asylum seekers. Do you agree Nigel Farage
:17:32. > :17:36.has confused that? That same poster appeared on the front pages of
:17:37. > :17:40.newspapers. Did you support that newspaper? Breaking point? I think
:17:41. > :17:43.it was a ridiculously drawn up poster because it did not explain
:17:44. > :17:46.the core issue but it was on the front page of all these issues for
:17:47. > :17:53.weeks and weeks. It is a shameful poster. Michael Gove said he
:17:54. > :17:59.shuddered. It was... I would not have anything to do with that
:18:00. > :18:03.poster. Good for you. What we cannot allow is people who feel very
:18:04. > :18:09.strongly in their communities how immigration is change their lives
:18:10. > :18:14.and their whole culture, that has to be stopped, because people are being
:18:15. > :18:17.called racist. I have met so many Labour voters out there who feel
:18:18. > :18:21.they have not been listened to, they are being told they are ignorant,
:18:22. > :18:27.stupid, racist, and all they are trying to save is now what
:18:28. > :18:31.respectable politicians, even like you are saying, or others, we have
:18:32. > :18:34.to talk about immigration in a sensible way because this country
:18:35. > :18:38.has to look at it. I completely agree. That's very different to
:18:39. > :18:46.shameful posters like that. It is not just Ukip doing this. They have
:18:47. > :18:48.been some absolutely shameful exploitation is by all the
:18:49. > :18:55.campaigners. Can you give me some examples? Vote Leave, after the sex
:18:56. > :19:03.attackers, same with coming to this country. Who said that? The Leave
:19:04. > :19:07.Campaign. After the Orlando shootings, the most despicable ad
:19:08. > :19:11.suggesting that might happen as a result of the EU membership here as
:19:12. > :19:14.well. There has been shameful exploitation of people's fears and
:19:15. > :19:21.that's not the right way to talk about it. Hang on, Nick Herbert, can
:19:22. > :19:27.I talk to your game because you say Jeremy Corbyn was right, so would
:19:28. > :19:32.you now say there can be no upper limit on net migration from the EU
:19:33. > :19:36.while we remember? It is part of fundamental freedoms of the EU that
:19:37. > :19:40.people come over and have the right to work. But it's not a right to
:19:41. > :19:46.claim. And we do have full control over those non-EU migrants and we
:19:47. > :19:50.control our borders. Not the EU migrants? So there could be no upper
:19:51. > :19:56.limits? Just like Germany, France, Spain can't stop UK nationals, over
:19:57. > :20:01.1 million, living and working in a EU. Let's remember that. That's part
:20:02. > :20:04.of the single market. If we are outside the single market, there is
:20:05. > :20:08.going to be economic damage and fewer jobs for people and lower
:20:09. > :20:11.wages for people than they would have had otherwise. And less money
:20:12. > :20:17.for public services. That is fundamentally important point. Free
:20:18. > :20:25.trade areas, America, Mexico, and they don't have this. I mean, this
:20:26. > :20:30.idea that somehow the only part of the world doing this right is these
:20:31. > :20:35.28 countries in the EU, rest of the world manages to trade, free trade
:20:36. > :20:40.deals, the political structure. We are used to being in the poetical
:20:41. > :20:43.single market. I'm going to stop you there because we're going to do a
:20:44. > :20:44.bit more on the economy in just a moment.
:20:45. > :20:47.A man will appear in court today charged with the murder
:20:48. > :20:50.Thomas Mair, who is 52 and from Birstall, will appear
:20:51. > :20:53.at the Old Bailey this afternoon charged with murder,
:20:54. > :20:55.grievous bodily harm and possession of a firearm with intent.
:20:56. > :20:57.Meanwhile, here in Westminster, floral tributes have continued to be
:20:58. > :21:02.laid at an inpromptu shrine on Parliament Square.
:21:03. > :21:04.MPs and peers will gather this afternoon in Parliament
:21:05. > :21:13.Let's talk to our correspondent Tom Bateman.
:21:14. > :21:22.What is going to happen in the chamber today? Parliamentarians will
:21:23. > :21:28.gather from 2:30pm this afternoon in the House of Commons. We understand
:21:29. > :21:33.that the speaker will be the first, John Bercow, to pay his respects,
:21:34. > :21:36.paid tribute to Jo Cox, followed by the leader of the Labour Party,
:21:37. > :21:40.Jeremy Corbyn and then the Prime Minister, David Cameron. We expect a
:21:41. > :21:46.busy chamber. MPs this morning have been returning to this recall, which
:21:47. > :21:50.obviously Parliament hadn't been sitting because of the referendum
:21:51. > :21:56.campaign, we've had MPs already paying tribute, some tweeting their
:21:57. > :22:01.memories and their words for Jo Cox, even on their journey on the way
:22:02. > :22:04.here. Speaking to one of her colleagues, over the weekend, we
:22:05. > :22:09.expect many people will be wearing a white rose, which will be handed out
:22:10. > :22:12.before the sitting itself, in tribute to their Yorkshire roots.
:22:13. > :22:19.Behind you, even though the weather is pretty bad, we can see a wave of
:22:20. > :22:24.flowers and tributes being laid as a public pass by. Has that been going
:22:25. > :22:30.on all weekend? Absolutely, a number of vigils and memorial services
:22:31. > :22:32.actually over the weekend, to Jo Cox and it's striking, reading some of
:22:33. > :22:37.the messages here, the way in which she was regarded as somebody who
:22:38. > :22:41.worked passionately for her constituents. And I think that is
:22:42. > :22:46.really what we're going to hear a lot more of this afternoon. The way
:22:47. > :22:53.she cared deeply about the seat she was born in, becoming BMP as the new
:22:54. > :22:58.intake only last year. She seemed to work tirelessly for constituents and
:22:59. > :23:03.it's notable that her family are saying that, just in the last few
:23:04. > :23:09.hours, three of her charities, I ask people to donate to, ?800,000, and
:23:10. > :23:14.one of those, charity that works in the constituency, helping people who
:23:15. > :23:20.suffer from loneliness. I think we will hear a lot more about that this
:23:21. > :23:22.afternoon about how she tried to help people in her constituency and
:23:23. > :23:25.indeed for those causes around the world. Tom Bateman, on Parliament
:23:26. > :23:26.Square, thank you very much. And we're joined now by the Labour
:23:27. > :23:29.MP, Alison McGovern, and the Conservative MP and former
:23:30. > :23:39.International Development Welcome to both of you. Alison, your
:23:40. > :23:44.memories first of all Jo Cox? A wonderful smile, beautiful person,
:23:45. > :23:49.deeply committed to her causes. You know, I knew her before she was
:23:50. > :23:55.elected. Working on international development issues. And justice for
:23:56. > :23:58.people in the poorest parts of the world, but when she came to the
:23:59. > :24:03.House of Commons, she took it by storm and probably achieved much
:24:04. > :24:09.more than people who'd served for even longer. She was absolutely
:24:10. > :24:11.adept at holding the government to account. I think George Osborne was
:24:12. > :24:19.right when he said she changed policy and I watched government
:24:20. > :24:24.ministers worry about what Jo with next ask them because half the time
:24:25. > :24:27.she seemed no more than them. Just an absolutely brained person. I'm
:24:28. > :24:33.devastated. I can't believe it's true to be honest. People are taking
:24:34. > :24:37.it in, I think since it happened on Thursday. You are from a different
:24:38. > :24:41.party, Andrew Mitchell, that you wrote an article about Jo Cox
:24:42. > :24:45.describing it as a five foot bundle of Yorkshire grit. How did you get
:24:46. > :24:48.to know her? I first met it ten years ago when we were both marching
:24:49. > :24:55.against the genocide in Darfur for in London. And then in North Darfur,
:24:56. > :25:00.where she was a key operator in Oxfam. And David Cameron and I both
:25:01. > :25:06.went there and she organised the visit. And I have known on and off
:25:07. > :25:11.since then but when she into the House of Commons she came to see me
:25:12. > :25:17.to say could we cooperate and she set up the friends of Syria, the
:25:18. > :25:22.all-party group, and, between us, we co-chaired that group and she made a
:25:23. > :25:27.tremendous impact. A really effective person at making the
:25:28. > :25:30.government see the wider picture on Syria and really effective in the
:25:31. > :25:35.chamber as Alison was saying in getting the message across. In terms
:25:36. > :25:40.of the constituency, as well, because these are the issues that
:25:41. > :25:48.you guys campaign on, to varying degrees, but in her constituency,
:25:49. > :25:51.she also made a major impact. Yes, there's a special thing in politics
:25:52. > :25:57.when you represent your hometown like Jo did. She was one of their
:25:58. > :26:01.own. They sent it to Westminster to represent them but equally,
:26:02. > :26:06.sometimes there are things people don't see, which Jo did, the hard
:26:07. > :26:08.graft of working with charities and organisations to bring the community
:26:09. > :26:14.together. I can remember talking to her just before and after she was
:26:15. > :26:18.elected about the things she was wanting to do in the constituency,
:26:19. > :26:24.change the way politics was done, make it about the real differences
:26:25. > :26:29.we can do when we work together. Jo was an absolutely fine
:26:30. > :26:35.representative, clearly a Yorkshire person through and through, and,
:26:36. > :26:38.looking back at pictures of her, she threw herself into being a
:26:39. > :26:43.constituency member of Parliament with real gusto and minor everybody
:26:44. > :26:46.there is incredibly proud affair, as is everybody in the labour movement.
:26:47. > :26:51.She was chair of the labour women's network, and there are people House
:26:52. > :26:55.of Commons today, who owe their confidence and their political
:26:56. > :26:59.network to Jo and the work she did, not just getting herself elected,
:27:00. > :27:04.but making sure that all of us, as women together, works with each
:27:05. > :27:07.other and helped each other be heard in politics. One of the things I
:27:08. > :27:11.think many people forget is that what MPs do, they are up close and
:27:12. > :27:17.personal with their constituents. She was at a surgery. There's not
:27:18. > :27:22.much protection, there's a weekly grind, if you like, having to deal
:27:23. > :27:26.with real problems, of real people, and that sometimes gets forgotten.
:27:27. > :27:32.This is a terrible tragedy. But I think one of the things Jo would
:27:33. > :27:38.want us to remember is not to damage this very accessible relationship
:27:39. > :27:42.with MPs and their constituents. I think we need to see this as a
:27:43. > :27:46.terrible, terrible event, but not one that should lead to any change
:27:47. > :27:51.in the openness and accessibility which all of us enjoy with our
:27:52. > :27:56.constituents. The police, quite rightly, are very good to us, give
:27:57. > :28:02.us good advice, help us understand the risks and also to make sure our
:28:03. > :28:07.staff are OK because other constituency offices are staffed by
:28:08. > :28:11.Brilliant dedicated people as Jo's staff are, and the police are good.
:28:12. > :28:14.We have to be listened to and we have to take appropriate measures
:28:15. > :28:18.but we don't want to damage what is a really important part of our
:28:19. > :28:23.democracy. To me, what Israeli devastating about this is that I
:28:24. > :28:26.represent my hometown as Jo did and I personally would say there's never
:28:27. > :28:32.any where I feel safer and that's what makes it so devastating. She
:28:33. > :28:36.was also a mother to two young children, too, and obviously very
:28:37. > :28:40.much part of her life, that's all so dreadful for the family, clearly,
:28:41. > :28:48.apart from the politics. Yes, awful, absolutely horrific. It is beyond
:28:49. > :28:52.imagining for most of us and I think what we need to do now is remember
:28:53. > :28:57.what Jo stood for, hold dear to those values that she campaigned for
:28:58. > :29:02.the changes she would've wanted in the world. Will you be speaking
:29:03. > :29:07.afternoon, Andrew? I hope so, yes. She was a friend and colleague. How
:29:08. > :29:13.much worse must be for those who mourn her as a daughter or a sister
:29:14. > :29:19.or a wife, and those two lovely children who used to come and have
:29:20. > :29:21.all capacity with her in the week. What about Labour MPs? You'd be
:29:22. > :29:25.interviewed over the weekend and must've hit very hard, whether you
:29:26. > :29:32.are from the same intake as Jo Cox or the one before. Young MPs, who
:29:33. > :29:38.come into the house, who want to dedicate their lives to public
:29:39. > :29:41.service. Yes, of course, we are all close but actually Jo was somebody
:29:42. > :29:44.who had a network of friends and colleagues around the world and what
:29:45. > :29:51.is truly amazing about her is the outpouring of people who, from
:29:52. > :29:55.Nairobi, Washington, New York, who have all shared their memories of
:29:56. > :30:00.working with her, because she had a view on the whole world and how
:30:01. > :30:06.people could work together across many thousands of miles apart, so of
:30:07. > :30:09.course, it's tough in Westminster today, but Jo was a person who had a
:30:10. > :30:12.significant career beforehand and that was working with people all
:30:13. > :30:15.around the world and I think of all of those people, some are many many
:30:16. > :30:20.miles away from here, are grieving desperately for her. Right, and the
:30:21. > :30:23.causes of the campaign she believed in, you spoke about a little
:30:24. > :30:24.earlier, they will obviously continue and the money is being
:30:25. > :30:33.raised for them at the moment? Yes, and I agree with what Allison
:30:34. > :30:37.said, she had many friends and deep roots across the international
:30:38. > :30:40.humanitarian and development family, really. A very moving response in
:30:41. > :30:45.the Canadian parliament but all around the world and throughout the
:30:46. > :30:50.UN system, she knew so many people. She was much loved and she had very
:30:51. > :30:54.deep roots in that community, part of the reason why she will be so
:30:55. > :31:00.desperately missed. Will you be wanting to speak this afternoon? I
:31:01. > :31:03.will be there but I don't think I will be able to speak but I think
:31:04. > :31:08.many of us will want to be there and at the service afterwards. Kate? I
:31:09. > :31:12.won't be speaking but I will be there. I think the people who knew
:31:13. > :31:16.her really well, and of course, she came in last year and I met her in a
:31:17. > :31:21.number of times but Alison has put it absolutely right about how people
:31:22. > :31:24.will be feeling today. I think it will be a very moving, it is only
:31:25. > :31:29.going to last an hour, so people will be making short contributions,
:31:30. > :31:35.I would imagine and I'm sure the speaker will do it beanie well. And
:31:36. > :31:39.of course, we mention -- extremely well. And of course, we remember the
:31:40. > :31:43.three other members who were murdered, Airey Neave, in the palace
:31:44. > :31:47.itself, Ian Gow, I was in Parliament when he was murdered and Robert
:31:48. > :31:53.Bradfield, another Northern Ireland MP blown up at his surgery. It does
:31:54. > :31:57.not, I mean, fortunately it does not happen very often but something like
:31:58. > :32:02.this, what is so sad is that she had only been an MP for a year and had a
:32:03. > :32:06.huge future ahead of her, even if she didn't want that, she was going
:32:07. > :32:11.to be someone who was going to be in a great position to really change
:32:12. > :32:12.things. Thank you for joining us. It will be very sombre this afternoon,
:32:13. > :32:14.I'm sure. Now, they were giving David Cameron
:32:15. > :32:17.a typically hard time on BBC One last night,
:32:18. > :32:20.as they did Michael Gove last week, so how does the BBC make sure
:32:21. > :32:22.that its audiences on political Adam's been behind the scenes
:32:23. > :32:25.on Question Time to find out. For decades, Question Time has
:32:26. > :32:28.plonked a panel of political types in a different town every
:32:29. > :32:34.Thursday night. In about half an hour's
:32:35. > :32:40.time, the former leader of the Labour Party Ed Miliband
:32:41. > :32:43.is going to be sitting in this seat but, hang on,
:32:44. > :32:45.there's something missing. Hundreds of people apply but only
:32:46. > :32:53.150 are chosen. We have a team doing
:32:54. > :32:58.just audience selection. How did you vote
:32:59. > :33:03.in the last election? And then we put together from that
:33:04. > :33:15.a balance of everything. Political persuasion, age, gender,
:33:16. > :33:19.and where they are on Brexit. And then, at that point,
:33:20. > :33:25.you have an audience of 150 people that you know
:33:26. > :33:30.is fairly well-balanced. What you don't know,
:33:31. > :33:32.if you're in the chair, is when you call on somebody who's
:33:33. > :33:37.got their hand up, which bit they represent because they're
:33:38. > :33:39.not marked Ukip-Brexit, And you can try and guess
:33:40. > :33:45.by people's appearance Before the show, David treats them
:33:46. > :33:56.to a sort of free stand-up routine The case that is for change, which,
:33:57. > :34:08.in this case, is the Brexit, is always more vociferous
:34:09. > :34:12.in an audience like this because there are people who feel
:34:13. > :34:16.passionately about sovereignty, And, on the whole, people who vote
:34:17. > :34:23.Remain are less passionate about why So you have to check very carefully
:34:24. > :34:32.to get both sides of the argument. They are all ready for an hour
:34:33. > :34:35.of arguments, but what about one Yes, the 6,000 people at The Great
:34:36. > :34:45.EU Debate at the SSE Arena in Wembley on 21st June,
:34:46. > :34:47.just two days before A third of the tickets were given
:34:48. > :34:51.to the official Leave Campaign to A third were given to the official
:34:52. > :34:56.Remain Campaign so they could do The rest were made available
:34:57. > :35:01.to the general public, who applied When they went there,
:35:02. > :35:05.they had to say whether they were a Leave supporter
:35:06. > :35:08.or a Remain supporter. Undecideds aren't allowed
:35:09. > :35:11.because someone who's undecided at the start of the campaign may
:35:12. > :35:14.have made their mind up And there are rules
:35:15. > :35:19.for the audience. You're allowed to wear a T-shirt
:35:20. > :35:21.with a slogan on it, but you can't bring a flag
:35:22. > :35:23.or a banner. You're allowed to clap but you're
:35:24. > :35:27.not allowed to heckle. Luckily for you, less so for me,
:35:28. > :35:31.I won't be up here on the night. Saying hello to a very balanced
:35:32. > :35:34.Wembley will be Mishal Husain, Emily Maitlis and,
:35:35. > :35:38.of course, David Dimbleby. It's good for voters and families
:35:39. > :35:41.and young people to see this thing being energised,
:35:42. > :35:45.not just being taken for granted, so I think the idea of Wembley Arena
:35:46. > :35:48.- I shan't be singing, coming on with a guitar -
:35:49. > :35:51.I think it will be great. It looks like he is. It will be very
:35:52. > :36:00.exciting. Now, not much happening this week
:36:01. > :36:03.apart from the biggest political decision the UK's made
:36:04. > :36:05.in a generation. In a moment, I'll be talking to two
:36:06. > :36:08.of Fleet Street's finest to get their take on these
:36:09. > :36:10.momentous few days. First, let's look at how
:36:11. > :36:12.events will unfold. Tonight, Jeremy Corbyn will face
:36:13. > :36:14.an audience of young voters as he puts the case
:36:15. > :36:17.for Remain on Sky News. Tomorrow night at 8pm,
:36:18. > :36:18.David Dimbleby will host The Great Debate on BBC One,
:36:19. > :36:22.with Remain and Leave politicians arguing their case in front
:36:23. > :36:25.of an audience of thousands On Wednesday, Republican
:36:26. > :36:32.presidential candidate Donald Trump is expected to fly
:36:33. > :36:36.into the UK to open a new golf Polls open at 7am on Thursday
:36:37. > :36:44.for the referendum on Britain's By the time they close at 10pm,
:36:45. > :36:49.David Dimbleby will already be on BBC One, as the country waits
:36:50. > :36:52.for the arguably the most important On Friday, the results will start
:36:53. > :36:57.to trickle in after midnight and by 6am, 90% of the results
:36:58. > :37:02.will have been counted. So unless the result is extremely
:37:03. > :37:05.close, the fate of the nation I'll be up all night with many
:37:06. > :37:13.others. We're joined now by James Forsyth
:37:14. > :37:22.of the Spectator and George Eaton No doubt you will be up through the
:37:23. > :37:25.night, too. In his question Time appearance, David Cameron appeared
:37:26. > :37:28.more fired up and passionate than perhaps arguably he had been in
:37:29. > :37:33.previous media performances. Does this reflect the change of mood at
:37:34. > :37:38.number ten? Reds what fired him up was understandably being competitive
:37:39. > :37:42.Chamberlain. The appeasement. Up to that point, he was being forced to
:37:43. > :37:45.be polite, being forced on to the back foot but in that moment and for
:37:46. > :37:49.the last section of the programme, he was much more passionate. One of
:37:50. > :37:53.the things that will this be the Remain campaign on last night is how
:37:54. > :37:58.much the focus was on immigration. If, to be crude, when the subject is
:37:59. > :38:10.the economy, Remain when and when it is immigration, Leave when, last
:38:11. > :38:11.night was not great for Gabi Maine because it was all about
:38:12. > :38:14.immigration, following Jeremy Corbyn saying on Andrew Marr's programme
:38:15. > :38:17.saying there can be no upper limit to migration as long as Britain is
:38:18. > :38:19.within the EU. People saying he was perhaps a mole for the other side by
:38:20. > :38:22.talking about it. Perhaps the most -- help will think he couldn't have
:38:23. > :38:25.said. We number -- we know the number of don't knows is diminishing
:38:26. > :38:29.as we get closer to the referendum that there is no choice for either
:38:30. > :38:33.campaigners, they just need to stick to their strong suit. They have both
:38:34. > :38:37.got their core messages and it is what they call getting out the vote,
:38:38. > :38:43.now, that is what it is about. What gives the Remain campaign worry is
:38:44. > :38:48.the amount of labour campaigners who are voting Out and that is giving
:38:49. > :38:52.Leave the same thing. Remain always thought they needed two thirds of
:38:53. > :38:55.Labour voters to come and vote for in on the day in order to win and
:38:56. > :38:59.they are still nervous about that. In terms of tone and rhetoric, since
:39:00. > :39:03.the brutal murder of Jo Cox, there have been calls for a kinder, less
:39:04. > :39:08.divisive kind of politics and rhetoric in this campaign. Will it
:39:09. > :39:11.be heeded? Has it been? The challenge for both sides is to
:39:12. > :39:14.accept there is goodwill on both sides of the debate and not to
:39:15. > :39:18.question people's voters -- motives in why they are backing what they
:39:19. > :39:22.are backing. One thing is that we have to remember is we can disagree
:39:23. > :39:26.without being disagreeable. Who do using will win? Remain, I have
:39:27. > :39:31.always thought they will win because the undecided, when they have been
:39:32. > :39:35.asked which side they are leaning towards, they tend to say Gabi
:39:36. > :39:38.Maine, and we have seen in the recent referendums on a and the
:39:39. > :39:43.Scottish independence, the status quo tends to prevail but if Leave
:39:44. > :39:46.wins, it will be because of anxiety in immigration -- over immigration
:39:47. > :39:48.and because that campaign will have successfully delivered the message
:39:49. > :39:54.that the risks of staying are greater than the risks of leaving.
:39:55. > :39:56.Do you agree? Remain have to be favourites but one of the beans
:39:57. > :40:01.about this referendum is, whatever the result it will seem entirely
:40:02. > :40:06.obvious. If Remain when comfortable, we will say it is the economy and
:40:07. > :40:10.risk aversion kicking in and if Leave win, we will say in the
:40:11. > :40:12.anti-politics moment, you line up the entire political class and tell
:40:13. > :40:16.them to vote one way, they will obviously vote the other way. We
:40:17. > :40:20.will be wise after the event but you have to say Remain are the
:40:21. > :40:28.favourites. Both your publications, on Thursday? Yes! Rotten timing for
:40:29. > :40:31.you. What is interesting is that in some ways, David Cameron's ambition
:40:32. > :40:36.was to settle the European question with this referendum but whatever
:40:37. > :40:39.the result, it won't do that. If it is a narrow Remain as looks likely,
:40:40. > :40:43.there will be inevitable demands for a second referendum in the future
:40:44. > :40:47.and there's going to have to be further treaty change and
:40:48. > :40:51.integration. If it is a Leave vote, we have left the EU but it does
:40:52. > :40:51.integration. If it is a Leave vote, resolve the issue of the single
:40:52. > :40:54.integration. If it is a Leave vote, market. What does Brexit look like?
:40:55. > :40:57.You throw up a lot of questions whatever the result. One of the
:40:58. > :41:02.things that has happened in the campaign is that leaving the EU used
:41:03. > :41:07.to be a relatively French position and now it is very mainstream and it
:41:08. > :41:10.is highly likely the next Prime Minister will be someone who wanted
:41:11. > :41:14.to leave the EU and I don't think the question will be settled either.
:41:15. > :41:18.It will be much closer than 75, we can say that with confidence. What
:41:19. > :41:23.will happen to be Conservative Party? The next leader is likely to
:41:24. > :41:28.be someone who supported Brexit and they will not miss a referendum
:41:29. > :41:33.immediately but it will go on. If it is Brexit, they will find it easier
:41:34. > :41:36.to unite. But there are lots of Tory MPs on the Leave side who want to
:41:37. > :41:40.stop banging on about Europe and unite around what David Cameron will
:41:41. > :41:44.call his one nation agenda, who want to talk about something else. What
:41:45. > :41:47.is happening at the moment in terms of gathering signatures on the one
:41:48. > :41:54.hand for a vote of no-confidence on the other hand to say that Cameron
:41:55. > :41:57.must stay? As soon as the polls close on Thursday, a letter will be
:41:58. > :41:59.raised side by Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and several of the
:42:00. > :42:01.other cam and it Brexit board is making clear that David Cameron
:42:02. > :42:04.should stay whatever the result which is an attempt to say there is
:42:05. > :42:08.no realistic chance of removing him so don't bother trying to get
:42:09. > :42:12.together 15 aims to cause a vote of no confidence because you won't win.
:42:13. > :42:16.What do you say, Nick Herbert? The vast majority of the Parliamentary
:42:17. > :42:19.party... They should be allowed to write a letter but the feeling among
:42:20. > :42:22.members of Parliament is that we should accept the instruction of the
:42:23. > :42:26.British people and the Prime Minister has made clear that he will
:42:27. > :42:30.go on and implement that instruction and people do, as George says, want
:42:31. > :42:34.to get back down to the core business of delivering a manifesto
:42:35. > :42:36.commitment. We were elected with a majority and we promised a
:42:37. > :42:39.referendum and we have delivered on that and we return to the day-to-day
:42:40. > :42:43.business of restoring the economy and building our public services and
:42:44. > :42:46.extending opportunity to people and there is a real mood amongst my
:42:47. > :42:51.colleagues, the vast majority of them, that is what they want to do.
:42:52. > :42:56.Not the bitterness that has been played out over this campaign? I
:42:57. > :42:59.think it is overstated. The bitterness? The idea that there will
:43:00. > :43:04.be enduring grievances is overstated. Remember that half, over
:43:05. > :43:06.half of the Conservative Parliamentary party were elected
:43:07. > :43:11.either this time all the time before and they don't carry the legacy of
:43:12. > :43:14.battles past. Those were partly caused precisely because it was not
:43:15. > :43:17.a referendum but Parliamentary discussion and was much more heated.
:43:18. > :43:21.But we are all Democrats and we will accept the result of the referendum.
:43:22. > :43:25.I think the vast majority will move on at that point. What about this
:43:26. > :43:30.letter? You say you have not been shown it but you have heard about
:43:31. > :43:34.it? I have heard about it because I read what James is writing avidly. I
:43:35. > :43:38.have not been shown it but I agree with the sentiments, it is right
:43:39. > :43:40.that irrespective of the result, the Prime Minister continues and he
:43:41. > :43:43.himself said he will implement the instruction of the British people
:43:44. > :43:47.but he has a clear view about what is in Britain's national interest.
:43:48. > :43:51.If we vote to leave, and I have to say to my two Macromedia friends,
:43:52. > :44:00.perhaps they don't get out of London enough because quite honestly, I
:44:01. > :44:03.think you will find things are a bit different out there than in here and
:44:04. > :44:06.I'm very confident Leave will win but I would also say that if they
:44:07. > :44:08.do, it is absolutely crucial we get a negotiating team that is led by
:44:09. > :44:12.somebody who cares passionately about getting a good deal for the
:44:13. > :44:16.country. Who should lead it? I genuinely don't think David Cameron
:44:17. > :44:19.will be the right person. We need a cross-party group of people and we
:44:20. > :44:23.need someone like Peter Lilley, for example, who is the only person in
:44:24. > :44:26.the Tory party who's ever actually conducted trade deals. There's a
:44:27. > :44:30.group of people but it needs to be looked at carefully and we need to
:44:31. > :44:35.take time. We don't want any article 50. That is a legal requirement. You
:44:36. > :44:37.don't have to do it right away. Lets not worry about it until we know the
:44:38. > :44:42.result. And macro. Now, how might the UK fare outside
:44:43. > :44:44.the European Union? Well, one country that is in Europe,
:44:45. > :44:47.but outside the European Union, is Norway and some Remain
:44:48. > :44:49.campaigners argue that the country has suffered as a result
:44:50. > :44:52.of its decision to stay out. Norway has had not one
:44:53. > :44:54.but two referendums But it is a member of
:44:55. > :45:03.the European Economic Area and therefore part of
:45:04. > :45:06.the European single market. This means that it accepts free
:45:07. > :45:10.movement of people and many EU For example, Norway
:45:11. > :45:16.is not part of the EU's Common Agricultural Policy
:45:17. > :45:20.or Common Fisheries Policy. Norway pays the EU around
:45:21. > :45:25.?623 million a year - that's ?119 per head -
:45:26. > :45:30.in order to be part of the single market and take part
:45:31. > :45:33.in other EU projects. But just like the UK,
:45:34. > :45:36.it does get some of that money back in the form of EU
:45:37. > :45:38.funding for science, research and other
:45:39. > :45:42.projects in Norway. Let's talk now to a former
:45:43. > :45:46.Norwegian Minister and deputy leader of the Norwegian Centre
:45:47. > :45:57.Party Anne Tinner-Rine. Thank you very much for joining us.
:45:58. > :45:59.You said the Remain Campaign has employed the same scaremongering
:46:00. > :46:03.tactics used by those wishing to join the EU in Norway's 1994
:46:04. > :46:11.referendum. Can you give me some examples? I can give you some
:46:12. > :46:17.examples. Firstly, let me state that I do not wish to have any opinion on
:46:18. > :46:20.the British people, they should vote on Thursday, but it's interesting to
:46:21. > :46:27.see some parallels between the debates we had in 1972 and 1994 and
:46:28. > :46:32.they were especially free, parts of scaremongering, we saw from the yes
:46:33. > :46:37.campaign. First the economic one. Both the Prime Minister and all the
:46:38. > :46:43.economic elite and the media said that we would lose, at least 100,000
:46:44. > :46:45.jobs, they said the biggest businesses would leave Norway, there
:46:46. > :46:54.would be no more investment. They said the interest rates would
:46:55. > :46:58.increase significantly. And in the continuation of that, they said that
:46:59. > :47:02.this economic downturn would be a disaster for the Norwegian welfare
:47:03. > :47:11.state, they said that there would be heavy welfare losses, we would lose
:47:12. > :47:15.several benefits and pensions. The yes campaign even made some
:47:16. > :47:26.calculation that every Norwegian family would lose some ?3000. That
:47:27. > :47:32.sounds familiar. If there was a no. This was in 1994, 22 years ago. Now,
:47:33. > :47:38.the last main argument that the yes campaign did in that campaign, was
:47:39. > :47:44.to say that we would be totally isolated. And that, if we did not
:47:45. > :47:49.join the EU, the EU would no longer want to trade with us, they would
:47:50. > :47:55.not want to have any deals with us, we would have no negotiating power
:47:56. > :47:58.with them. We would become a small isolated little island up in the
:47:59. > :48:06.North that would be of no interest for the EU. Of course, it is all
:48:07. > :48:12.rubbish. You've just heard their somebody in Norway using a
:48:13. > :48:16.remarkable parallel, bearing in mind their campaign was such a long time
:48:17. > :48:20.ago, but actually, if you take what happened to Norway, we would be fine
:48:21. > :48:24.outside the EU, we would make trade deals, we won't have economic doom
:48:25. > :48:28.and gloom. And actually Norway is doing pretty well when I last
:48:29. > :48:31.looked. Firstly, in the interest of balance I hope you interview others
:48:32. > :48:35.in Norway with a different view like the Norwegian prime on a stick, who
:48:36. > :48:40.has said quite recently, Norway has lost influence as a result of being
:48:41. > :48:43.outside the EU, and she said basically we've lost sovereignty.
:48:44. > :48:48.And the question is, whether it would be right for Britain to have a
:48:49. > :48:51.Norway style relationship. By the way, the Leave Campaign are now
:48:52. > :48:54.saying they don't want bad, they want to be right outside the single
:48:55. > :49:00.market but as the price of Norway's partial access to the market, they
:49:01. > :49:04.have to accept free movement, twice as much migration per head of the
:49:05. > :49:09.population as the UK does, they have to pay into the system. Remember how
:49:10. > :49:14.we send money to the EU and we'll get it all back? Norway pays into
:49:15. > :49:18.the system and I have to accept regulations, 75% of EU laws, they
:49:19. > :49:23.have to accept, so the question is, will this be a good relationship for
:49:24. > :49:27.us? What our businesses are saying is for jobs and so on, it will not
:49:28. > :49:32.be as good, we won't have access to the single market and won't be
:49:33. > :49:35.gaining any of these things promised by the Leave Campaign. It is to
:49:36. > :49:39.disable you've interviewed Norwegian politicians who say Norway pays but
:49:40. > :49:43.has no say, and you still have freedom of movement of people which
:49:44. > :49:48.the Leave Campaign here thinks is damaging because they can't control
:49:49. > :49:54.that part of net migration. And that is part of the single market, that
:49:55. > :49:59.is the quid pro quo. In a way, leaving the EU, in that sense, would
:50:00. > :50:06.not solve those issues for Britain. Well, firstly, let me say, yes, Don
:50:07. > :50:12.the region Prime Minister and other ministers have said the agreement is
:50:13. > :50:20.terrible for Norway -- Norwegian Prime Minister. That caused quite an
:50:21. > :50:23.outrage in Norway because this... You must be aware this goes straight
:50:24. > :50:28.into the national political debate in Norway as well and the Norwegian
:50:29. > :50:34.Prime Minister has still not really for given the Norwegian public for
:50:35. > :50:41.voting no in 1994. Let me say that the agreement is not an optimal
:50:42. > :50:44.agreement. There are strong forces in Norwegian politics that would
:50:45. > :50:51.like to renegotiate the agreement. Right now, the majority in the
:50:52. > :50:58.Norwegian Parliament is for the agreement but that's a political
:50:59. > :51:04.solution, compromise. Of course, if we had enough politicians willing to
:51:05. > :51:07.go in and negotiate the agreement, free movement of people for
:51:08. > :51:15.instance, it would be one of those things which would be debated. All
:51:16. > :51:19.right, very quickly, isn't that the scenario that could face your
:51:20. > :51:23.campaign if Britain does about to leave the EU, that over the next few
:51:24. > :51:26.years, there is a trade deal negotiation, Britain stays part of
:51:27. > :51:29.the single market and with that comes freedom of movement because
:51:30. > :51:33.that's exactly what happened to Norway? I don't agree with you to be
:51:34. > :51:36.in the single market to trade and do very well. I also think, what
:51:37. > :51:40.happened in Norway shows very clearly what is happening here, it
:51:41. > :51:43.is, whether you like it or not, the establishment at the top, the
:51:44. > :51:49.leadership, ganging together against the people and it's very clear in
:51:50. > :51:52.Norway, despite what their Prime Minister has said, the vast vast
:51:53. > :51:57.majority of the public in Norway do not want to join the EU. We've never
:51:58. > :52:01.had that chance. This is our first chance but also we are going to see
:52:02. > :52:04.if we vote to leave, change throughout the rest of the EU
:52:05. > :52:09.including Norway probably, getting a chance to have that discussion. We
:52:10. > :52:12.will find out. Anne Tinner-Rine, thank you very much for joining us.
:52:13. > :52:13.Now, we were out, blocked from joining,
:52:14. > :52:17.This week, the British people will be given another opportunity
:52:18. > :52:19.to decide whether we stay in and start another
:52:20. > :52:30.chapter in the UK's relationship with the EU.
:52:31. > :52:34.If we are to form the United States of Europe, we must begin now.
:52:35. > :52:36.Despite Mr Macmillan's friendship with De Gaulle,
:52:37. > :52:45.Britain has much to contribute to this process and as members
:52:46. > :52:54.of the Community, we shall be better able to do so.
:52:55. > :53:01.You see, Yes is now showing at 67% and the No vote at 33%.
:53:02. > :53:04.The President of the Commission, Mr Delors, said at a press
:53:05. > :53:07.conference the other day that he wanted the European Parliament to be
:53:08. > :53:11.the democratic body of the Community, he wanted
:53:12. > :53:14.the Commission to be the executive and he wanted the
:53:15. > :53:15.Council of Ministers to be the Senate.
:53:16. > :53:21.I have to say, Mr Speaker, that I find Winston Churchill's
:53:22. > :53:25.perception a good deal more convincing and more encouraging
:53:26. > :53:28.for the interests of our nation than the nightmare image sometimes
:53:29. > :53:33.conjured up by my right honourable friend.
:53:34. > :53:37.Britain's best interests are served by suspending our membership
:53:38. > :53:42.Like me or loathe me, don't bind my hands when I am
:53:43. > :54:01.negotiating on behalf of the British nation.
:54:02. > :54:03.Three years ago, I committed to the British people that
:54:04. > :54:06.I would renegotiate our position in the European Union and hold
:54:07. > :54:20.And we're joined now by the political historian,
:54:21. > :54:27.It's been a rocky relationship, hasn't it, Britain and the EU?
:54:28. > :54:31.Europe has been a poisoned chalice for so many British prime ministers
:54:32. > :54:36.from Harold Macmillan onwards. It destroyed his government, Ted Heath,
:54:37. > :54:40.Margaret Thatcher's government, John Major's government, broke up the
:54:41. > :54:44.Labour Party in the 1980s, and the reason it's been so difficult and it
:54:45. > :54:49.has divided parties is because it raises fundamental questions about
:54:50. > :54:56.widget identity, what sort of people are we? Are we really European or
:54:57. > :54:59.not? Does that extend from the post where period, an island mentality,
:55:00. > :55:03.not invaded in the same sense as those other countries who then drew
:55:04. > :55:07.together at the beginning? Was it a stumbling block from the start?
:55:08. > :55:11.Absolutely, our history is different to the continent for the continental
:55:12. > :55:15.countries, Germany, France, Italy, they have to begin again after the
:55:16. > :55:18.war, but our institutions remain undecided, going back to medieval
:55:19. > :55:22.times, the monarchy even further. Our history is quite different and
:55:23. > :55:27.that is summed up in the idea of the which of course Europe attacks
:55:28. > :55:30.because Europe is superior to the sovereignty of Parliament. What
:55:31. > :55:37.about, though, the economic criteria versus the political issues? I think
:55:38. > :55:42.that has always been the core of our relationship with the EU, it was
:55:43. > :55:48.seen at one point by both Labour and Tories as a good thing to be part of
:55:49. > :55:51.but the political union was more difficult to swallow? Absolutely,
:55:52. > :55:53.every British bonus from Harold Macmillan has wanted us to be in
:55:54. > :55:58.Europe because they economic advantages there, they haven't on
:55:59. > :56:04.the whole accepted what you might call the ideology of Europeanism,
:56:05. > :56:07.but they want to be part of political unity, monetary financial
:56:08. > :56:10.unity, but they thought there was definite pragmatic advantages in
:56:11. > :56:17.being in Europe and they've had to balance that against the ideology of
:56:18. > :56:21.Europe on the other side. In terms of Labour Party and Conservative
:56:22. > :56:25.Party politics, we saw Margaret Thatcher, was she becoming
:56:26. > :56:28.suspicious of a Europe that she thought was being run by social
:56:29. > :56:35.Democrats, that somehow it wasn't the sort of Europe that she wanted
:56:36. > :56:39.controlling Britain? As your film showed, she was a great euro
:56:40. > :56:45.enthusiast in 1975, but became suspicious much later in the late
:56:46. > :56:48.1980s when Jack the law took the TUC and telling them they could get
:56:49. > :56:52.lists of social benefits from Europe they can get from her, and she said,
:56:53. > :56:56.we haven't defeated socialism by the front door in Britain, to have it
:56:57. > :57:00.brought in by the back door from Brussels. And that, I think, but are
:57:01. > :57:04.strongly against the European Union. What do you say to that because the
:57:05. > :57:10.other. It's true but then, of course, what's happened since then,
:57:11. > :57:13.the EU now has gone back to being a supporter of the global
:57:14. > :57:19.corporations, it is neoliberal, you saw what did terms of stopping
:57:20. > :57:23.bargaining, the idea it a great institution there to protect
:57:24. > :57:29.workers' rights, that's nonsense. The trade union say that. Yes, they
:57:30. > :57:31.are trying to scare people that everywhere to leave, the rights
:57:32. > :57:35.would disappear but all of those things are enshrined in law. The
:57:36. > :57:38.trade union movement won these things, not the European Union. It's
:57:39. > :57:44.been a real saw the link to the Conservative Party even today. I
:57:45. > :57:47.think we have to accept it has to be settled by the British people
:57:48. > :57:53.because normal party politics can't. It's right to put it to the people.
:57:54. > :57:59.I wasn't able to vote in 1975, I was too young. Don't boast. I watched
:58:00. > :58:03.the wonderful BBC documentary about it and there was Tony Benn saying if
:58:04. > :58:06.we voted to stay in, it would be the end of democracy, and of these
:58:07. > :58:09.claims about the attack on sovereignty have been overblown.
:58:10. > :58:13.Actually, now, Britain has this data is where we are not in the Eurozone,
:58:14. > :58:18.we keep our own currency, not committed to further political
:58:19. > :58:19.integration. OK, we have to leave it there. Thank you for coming in on
:58:20. > :58:22.the history there. There's just time before we go
:58:23. > :58:25.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was former
:58:26. > :58:27.Conservative Party Chairman, Baroness Warsi announced her
:58:28. > :58:29.defection this morning, but what has she apparently defected
:58:30. > :58:31.from and to? A) From the Conservative Party
:58:32. > :58:34.to the Labour Party? B) From supporting Bradford Bulls
:58:35. > :58:40.rugby league team to Leeds Rhinos? I hope you know more
:58:41. > :58:44.about that than me. C) From Vote Leave to the Remain
:58:45. > :58:46.Campaign? Or D) From the Old Republic
:58:47. > :58:56.to the Dark Side in Star Wars? Well, she was never part of it. The
:58:57. > :59:01.answer, which is wrong, it is saying that she left the Vote Leave to join
:59:02. > :59:05.Remain. I checked it this morning, she's never appeared on our
:59:06. > :59:08.platforms, than anything. We have to leave it there. I think she's had a
:59:09. > :59:09.telephone call from David Cameron. Particular do you two in these
:59:10. > :59:17.closing days. Just three or four more sleeps
:59:18. > :59:20.until we find out whether we're in or out of the EU,
:59:21. > :59:23.depending on whether you plan to stay up all night
:59:24. > :59:25.on Thursday for the results. The One O'Clock News is starting
:59:26. > :59:28.over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon
:59:29. > :59:31.tomorrow with all the big