:00:37. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.David Cameron wants to reduce net migration to less than 100,000
:00:44. > :00:48.So why has his former head of strategy said
:00:49. > :00:51.that the Prime Minister was told four years ago that the promise
:00:52. > :00:59.The man who made millions when Britain tumbled out of the ERM
:01:00. > :01:01.on Black Wednesday's warning that it could be a Black Friday
:01:02. > :01:05.Should we take him seriously or is he just another wealthy
:01:06. > :01:13.Six big-hitting politicians of the main stage, 6,000 Leave
:01:14. > :01:16.and Remain supporters in the audience.
:01:17. > :01:21.Are you ready for the BBC's Great Referendum Debate?
:01:22. > :01:29.The fur is flying on Twitter in a feline face-off.
:01:30. > :01:39.But how do these cats' owners know what they think?
:01:40. > :01:49.With us for the whole of the programme today,
:01:50. > :01:53.Two rivals in the referendum debate but they will not be as voracious as
:01:54. > :01:55.felines, or maybe they will! Times columnist and ex-
:01:56. > :02:03.Conservative Tim Montgomerie, The Confederation of
:02:04. > :02:04.British Industry's first female whose big business members
:02:05. > :02:07.are campaigning to stay in. First this morning, forget
:02:08. > :02:10.the Stadium Municipal in Toulouse, scene of Wales' footballing triumph
:02:11. > :02:12.yesterday, another iconic footballing address will be
:02:13. > :02:19.the scene of great drama tonight. Wembley - the arena not the stadium
:02:20. > :02:26.- is hosting the BBC's Great Debate tonight
:02:27. > :02:28.on BBC One at 8pm. It's the biggest referendum event
:02:29. > :02:31.of the campaign and its compere has taken a break from a busy
:02:32. > :02:41.rehearsal to join us. I am pleased to welcome the
:02:42. > :02:46.masterful David Dimbleby. That is a massive audience, 6000, and you have
:02:47. > :02:50.to keep them under control. I wish it were Wembley Stadium. We could
:02:51. > :02:55.have filled Wembley Stadium ten times over the amount of interest in
:02:56. > :03:00.this debate. Millions of people will be watching. We are in the arena,
:03:01. > :03:07.which is great. I am taking my guitar, I will be singing a ditty,
:03:08. > :03:11.hello, Wembley! We have had weeks and weeks of discussion. What
:03:12. > :03:17.happens in a long campaign is all kinds of detail is gone into but at
:03:18. > :03:24.the end, when people go into the polling booth, it normally focuses
:03:25. > :03:29.on two or three big points. I think tonight the campaigns will focus on
:03:30. > :03:32.those and the audience asking the questions, they will focus on what
:03:33. > :03:37.seemed to be the most important, the visceral feeling that will make
:03:38. > :03:46.people decide whether In or Out is for them. You have a panel of three
:03:47. > :03:54.petitions each side. How will it work? It is carefully worked out
:03:55. > :03:58.between the two sides. The Vote Leave and Remain campaigns have
:03:59. > :04:04.chosen the people, three on each side. There will be an opening
:04:05. > :04:08.statement and closing statement, one minute for each. I think long
:04:09. > :04:16.opening statements in some debates have been tedious. Short statements.
:04:17. > :04:21.In between, those six will debate questions that have been chosen from
:04:22. > :04:25.the audience. Also Michelle Hussain will be there with ten people
:04:26. > :04:30.listening at the back of the stadium, commenting on what they
:04:31. > :04:37.have heard. It should have a good pace. That will work well. And the
:04:38. > :04:41.last 20 minutes, we are in the spin room and hearing reaction from
:04:42. > :04:48.outsiders, politicians, everybody. Two hours, but it is not two long
:04:49. > :04:53.hours of statements. I hope to get a good dialogue running across the
:04:54. > :04:57.stage. That is the plan. It is Wembley, it sounds like a warm up
:04:58. > :05:04.for Glastonbury if you have your guitar. There are two stages. There
:05:05. > :05:10.are three, really. There is me, Michelle Hussain with a gang of
:05:11. > :05:20.people. Empoli outside in the spin room. -- Emily Maitlis. It is not
:05:21. > :05:28.raining. There are train strikes coming out of your ears. I hope
:05:29. > :05:33.people will get here. Before we closed the books we had 20,000
:05:34. > :05:43.people applying. It is fantastic inside. It is a huge stadium with
:05:44. > :05:48.bleachers all around. We are on a big stage. It is bigger and more
:05:49. > :05:53.glamorous than any thing you can imagine. It is better than your set.
:05:54. > :06:03.The bar is low here, I can assure you! You go back to your bigger and
:06:04. > :06:09.better set. Are you happy with the Remain line-up, this close to
:06:10. > :06:13.polling day, would you have liked to have seen the Prime Minister, George
:06:14. > :06:19.Osborne? I think it is a good line-up. We are getting to the final
:06:20. > :06:24.distillation of the argument. To have a line-up that are not
:06:25. > :06:30.necessarily be usual suspects. Francis O'Grady I think will make a
:06:31. > :06:35.terrific case for workers' rights. Ruth Davidson, who presented a
:06:36. > :06:43.strong Remain case. And Sadiq Khan, coming out strong on London and not
:06:44. > :06:49.just London. Does Boris Johnson perform well in this format? I think
:06:50. > :06:53.he does. The Leave side have the same people who appeared on ITV, if
:06:54. > :07:00.I am allowed to mention that. We can name the competitors! Theirs was a
:07:01. > :07:07.smaller event than the BBC! The Leave team, a conservative, Gisela
:07:08. > :07:16.Stuart, Labour, who did a good job two weeks ago. The Leave pudding at
:07:17. > :07:23.the same team. In that debate, people like -- putting out the same
:07:24. > :07:28.team. Boris was disciplined in not responding. I think there was an
:07:29. > :07:34.attempt to provoke Boris. The danger if Remain repeat that it allowed
:07:35. > :07:39.Gisela Stuart and Andrew to make points uninterrupted. People were
:07:40. > :07:44.focused on attacking Boris which allowed the other Leave spokesman to
:07:45. > :07:49.make points more clearly. Ruth Davidson, the Conservative leader in
:07:50. > :07:55.Scotland has been chosen, I think to duff up Boris. She is pugnacious.
:07:56. > :07:59.Interesting. Particularly after the tragedy of last week, an emphasis on
:08:00. > :08:04.personal attacks will not go down well and I hope both sides will
:08:05. > :08:09.emphasise, as Carolyn said, the big closing arguments of the campaign,
:08:10. > :08:12.so we have substance rather than pettiness. What about changing
:08:13. > :08:18.minds? People are still saying they do not know or their minds could be
:08:19. > :08:28.changed. How important is it in that regard? Really important. I think if
:08:29. > :08:34.we can get away... If in this last week people can get back to core
:08:35. > :08:36.arguments around the economy, arguments around immigration,
:08:37. > :08:42.sovereignty, if they can be brought together in a simple and straight
:08:43. > :08:47.forward and honest way, I think it could be compelling for people to
:08:48. > :08:55.make their final minds up. There I say it, because we are on our show,
:08:56. > :09:01.is there anything left to say? We had this great debate and you want
:09:02. > :09:05.to ram home the messages of both campaigns, is there anything new to
:09:06. > :09:10.say? I do not think there is anything new to say but there are
:09:11. > :09:16.undecided people. It seems to be a diminishing number. It might be ten
:09:17. > :09:20.or 15%. It could swing a result. My feeling is if you ask people whether
:09:21. > :09:26.they would join the European Union if we were not already members, the
:09:27. > :09:31.pollsters find overwhelmingly not. People are frightened of leaving
:09:32. > :09:34.because of scare stories put out by the business community and by the
:09:35. > :09:40.Prime Minister, it is almost an emotional thing now. Do people
:09:41. > :09:45.believe enough in Britain's ability to survive outside of the EU? If
:09:46. > :09:51.people want facts there are only a certain number of facts. It is an
:09:52. > :09:56.element of faith now. Will it be heart rather than head? I think it
:09:57. > :10:01.will be a mixture of the two and what is coming through strongly is
:10:02. > :10:06.the sense of opportunities and benefits for the economy of being in
:10:07. > :10:11.the EU. I am pleased that we have begun to see more about positive
:10:12. > :10:15.arguments, the fact we are on the verge of a digital single market
:10:16. > :10:19.with Vodafone talking about the advantages and smaller businesses.
:10:20. > :10:24.The services economy and that opportunity. I think there is an
:10:25. > :10:27.opportunity for positive economic arguments around jobs, prosperity,
:10:28. > :10:31.that can come through. The question for today is which of
:10:32. > :10:35.these cats supports Brexit? At the end of the show,
:10:36. > :10:47.Tim and Carolyn will give Now - the Conservatives' 2010
:10:48. > :10:57.election campaign promised to reduce net migration
:10:58. > :11:04.to the tens of thousands. in a Coalition Government,
:11:05. > :11:10.at last year's election the Conservatives AGAIN included
:11:11. > :11:12.the commitment in their manifesto. But now Steve Hilton -
:11:13. > :11:15.who is the the former director of strategy at Downing Street -
:11:16. > :11:17.has said that officials told them back in 2012 that the commitment
:11:18. > :11:20.was unachievable if we stayed This question of immigration
:11:21. > :11:23.in this referendum isn't about whether you want lower
:11:24. > :11:25.immigration or higher immigration. It's about whether the government
:11:26. > :11:28.that people elect in this And when I was working
:11:29. > :11:33.in government, we were told by officials that as long
:11:34. > :11:36.as we are in the EU, we couldn't And that's why I think we need
:11:37. > :11:43.to leave the EU. And David Cameron was asked
:11:44. > :11:45.about Steve Hilton's claim by Lorraine Kelly on ITV this
:11:46. > :12:06.morning. It had fallen quite substantially
:12:07. > :12:11.and it had got to not far away from the ambition I set. There are good
:12:12. > :12:15.ways of controlling immigration. People who work here have to work
:12:16. > :12:20.four years before getting full access to the welfare system. But
:12:21. > :12:21.pulling out of the single market, wrecking our economy, that is a bad
:12:22. > :12:28.way. Are you surprised to hear Steve
:12:29. > :12:32.Hilton being prominent in the closing weeks in this campaign,
:12:33. > :12:36.particularly with the claim that civil servants told number 10 when
:12:37. > :12:40.he was there it was not achievable to bring net migration down to tens
:12:41. > :12:45.of thousands if the UK stayed in the EU? I am not surprised. I talked to
:12:46. > :12:49.Steve when he worked for the Prime Minister and was very frustrated
:12:50. > :12:53.them by the amount of paperwork that came across his desk from the
:12:54. > :12:57.European Union. He had a colour-coded system, the stuff that
:12:58. > :13:02.came from the Coalition Government, the stuff from Europe and the stuff
:13:03. > :13:06.from the civil service and he said the biggest pile was the stuff
:13:07. > :13:13.Europe generated, an illustration of how much we are governed by the EU,
:13:14. > :13:19.and I think he is right saying as long as we are part of the EU, we do
:13:20. > :13:26.not know if immigration is 330 thousand net, 555,000 next year. We
:13:27. > :13:31.have no mechanism to control it and if we have no mechanism to control
:13:32. > :13:36.it, we cannot plan for its impact on hospitals and schools and the
:13:37. > :13:40.housing market. Was it a mistake to continue to make the pledge to
:13:41. > :13:47.reduce net migration to tens of thousands when you cannot control at
:13:48. > :13:51.least half? It is a political choice and I have to say it is one the
:13:52. > :13:55.business community has always thought is a challenging thing. You
:13:56. > :14:00.cannot control the number of people who leave and so it would always be
:14:01. > :14:04.challenging, and it means there has been a focus on the control of this
:14:05. > :14:10.number rather than what is in the best interests of jobs, the economy.
:14:11. > :14:15.I think we would be entirely happy if there was not a net migration
:14:16. > :14:19.number. This is one of the big gaps. The business wants cheap labour.
:14:20. > :14:24.They want imported cheap labour from all over Europe because it keeps
:14:25. > :14:28.costs down. Quite a lot of the Leave side want high immigration. We have
:14:29. > :14:35.heard from Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. It is important we have
:14:36. > :14:39.immigration. We need certain people for hospitals, we need highly
:14:40. > :14:43.skilled people. If we are in control, we know the next year we
:14:44. > :14:48.will get to a certain amount, we can adjusted accordingly, but the
:14:49. > :14:51.problem at the moment, because we have no control over immigration
:14:52. > :15:01.from the rest of Europe, we can have big swings that great big pressures.
:15:02. > :15:07.What about cheap labour, unskilled workers? That is not right. Be
:15:08. > :15:11.honest. A lot of the opportunities, we have had huge skill shortages
:15:12. > :15:16.across the country. In the West Midlands they have a shortage of
:15:17. > :15:22.engineers. This has been one way we have been able to continue to grow.
:15:23. > :15:27.I recognise and members recognise this causes challenges in some parts
:15:28. > :15:34.and do not under estimate that. But the solutions are not enclosing our
:15:35. > :15:35.borders. Wouldn't it be better if we could pick and choose, which we
:15:36. > :15:44.could do if we had control? One of the things that we forget
:15:45. > :15:48.that this is a benefit to our people here. Answer the question I asked
:15:49. > :15:53.rather than changing the subject. It is an important point. In the 1980s,
:15:54. > :16:02.when our economy was growing less quickly, and the German economy was
:16:03. > :16:06.growing well, we had our feeders then, pet, young people going over
:16:07. > :16:13.to Germany to work, and it was a great opportunity. Young people love
:16:14. > :16:17.the idea that they could go and work abroad, and that is a reciprocal
:16:18. > :16:21.idea. At the moment it is going in one direction, but it could go in
:16:22. > :16:23.the other. We will talk about immigration are little later. To
:16:24. > :16:27.come back to the central point that Steve Hilton was making, they were
:16:28. > :16:32.warned that it wasn't possible. Steve Hilton has also said, and
:16:33. > :16:35.Michael Gove today, he assumed the Prime Minister would negotiate a
:16:36. > :16:39.better deal around this issue of freedom of movement. You think that
:16:40. > :16:43.is also what happened at the time, that they assumed they would be able
:16:44. > :16:49.to do something ahead of the referendum, and the Prime Minister
:16:50. > :16:54.says they have? There was an a real belief in Downing Street that they
:16:55. > :16:58.would get this emergency brake, they said, give us something if numbers
:16:59. > :17:03.released at a rocket, we could turn the tap off, because you talk to the
:17:04. > :17:07.New Zealand or Australia Prime Minister is, they have much higher
:17:08. > :17:11.levels of immigration, but it is not a political issue, and their
:17:12. > :17:15.explanation for that is that at any time, they can turn off the tap,
:17:16. > :17:18.they have control. I did think the British people are not generous,
:17:19. > :17:24.they understand the points that Carolyn make, they need certain
:17:25. > :17:27.levels of skilled labour. But when Germany so ruthlessly and
:17:28. > :17:31.uncompromisingly said you can't have anything at all, that gave us an
:17:32. > :17:35.illustration really of Europe's unwillingness to even give, when we
:17:36. > :17:38.had to the head of the referendum, Europe is not in a mood for
:17:39. > :17:42.compromise, not in a move try to help Britain out, which is one of
:17:43. > :17:46.the reasons why we are better out of the club. Were you surprised that
:17:47. > :17:49.there was not as much corporation from countries like Germany and
:17:50. > :17:53.France over this issue of trying to control the flow of freedom of
:17:54. > :17:55.movement? I think there is a really important thing at the heart of all
:17:56. > :17:59.of this, this is what the single market involves. And that is going
:18:00. > :18:04.to be one of the core choices for the British public on Thursday. It
:18:05. > :18:08.is part of being a member of the single market, and the benefits of
:18:09. > :18:13.that, we believe, are really significant. It is part of that,
:18:14. > :18:15.that idea of free movement, that is at the heart of this choice. All
:18:16. > :18:18.right. Alongside immigration, the other
:18:19. > :18:23.battle today is the economy. Some of the biggest names
:18:24. > :18:26.on the high street are today warning that families will face higher
:18:27. > :18:29.prices if we leave the EU. Former bosses of Tesco, Sainsbury's,
:18:30. > :18:31.Marks Spencer, Asda, Waitrose and Morrisons have all said
:18:32. > :18:34.the rising costs of the weekly shop would be "catastrophic
:18:35. > :18:38.for ordinary families". Their letter came as retail worker
:18:39. > :18:42.union Usdaw suggested that workers would be ?580 worse off if Britain
:18:43. > :18:46.left the EU due to a hit on sterling But economists for Brexit countered
:18:47. > :18:54.with a warning that unskilled EU migrants cost each taxpayer
:18:55. > :19:01.on average ?17.75 per month. They base this on a family of four
:19:02. > :19:06.costing ?29,225 in tax credits, housing and child benefit
:19:07. > :19:08.and the cost of education They say single unskilled workers
:19:09. > :19:17.cost ?849 each year. Meanwhile, financier
:19:18. > :19:21.George Soros, who made a fortune betting against the pound
:19:22. > :19:23.on Black Wednesday, said sterling would "decline precipitously"
:19:24. > :19:28.if Leave win this week. But Unite boss Len McCluskey,
:19:29. > :19:30.despite backing Remain, said that EU immigration has led
:19:31. > :19:33.to "sustained pressure on living standards"
:19:34. > :19:52.at the "expense" of British workers. Well, we can now talk to our guest,
:19:53. > :19:56.he is in Cardiff, Patrick Minford. Your report today says on skilled
:19:57. > :20:00.immigrants cost ?6.6 billion per year, but this is based on families
:20:01. > :20:05.of four with a stay at home mother. Do you know many families of four on
:20:06. > :20:13.skilled migrants with stay at home mums in the UK? The basic point is
:20:14. > :20:17.that it costs the best part of ?30,000 for that particular family
:20:18. > :20:22.type, if an unskilled worker brings in the rest of the family and he has
:20:23. > :20:27.two kids, ages 30 grand. Of course it can be less, it can be more. The
:20:28. > :20:31.whole point is that if you are an unskilled worker, you don't pay much
:20:32. > :20:35.tax, and you often get tax credits. If you have a family, you get a lot
:20:36. > :20:39.of tax credits, say your contribution to the Exchequer is
:20:40. > :20:45.probably negative, and then you impose the costs of health,
:20:46. > :20:48.education and housing on us, the other taxpayers, and of course
:20:49. > :20:50.particularly on the local communities who have to endure these
:20:51. > :20:55.costs locally rather than nationally. So it is very easy for
:20:56. > :21:00.the rest of us to say, it is very nice to have cheap labour and so on.
:21:01. > :21:03.The costs are borne by the local communities, which is why they are
:21:04. > :21:07.angry. But it is your figures that we are looking at. You seem to be
:21:08. > :21:11.saying you based the figures, the number of unskilled migrant
:21:12. > :21:14.families, on the UK average household composition. Most people
:21:15. > :21:19.would agree that the two are not the parable. We don't know exactly,
:21:20. > :21:29.unfortunately. So why have you used it as an illustrative figure? We
:21:30. > :21:33.have 28% single and the rest are family. The number can be smaller or
:21:34. > :21:37.larger. Under the fact of our welfare system, you get much more
:21:38. > :21:44.than you pay in. If you had a family of one kid, it would be the same. If
:21:45. > :21:48.you have a family, if you only have one and a nonworking mother, you get
:21:49. > :21:53.tax credits. That is the point, the facts of our welfare system. The
:21:54. > :21:58.basic point, Jo, is that if you have a welfare system, you act as a
:21:59. > :22:02.magnet for unskilled workers. If you also have a high level employment,
:22:03. > :22:09.followed by Matt on an economy doing well when the rest of Europe is
:22:10. > :22:14.doing badly. So you are assuming that three quarters of farm workers
:22:15. > :22:24.and labourers come here with their partners and children, whereas on
:22:25. > :22:31.skilled migrants are usually young. You really saying they cost our
:22:32. > :22:38.health service every year. There is a indeed, there is childbirth, if
:22:39. > :22:41.you have kids... The whole point is we don't really exactly, but what we
:22:42. > :22:45.do know is that this welfare state, and this is why of course Australia
:22:46. > :22:50.has a green card system, and it doesn't let in unskilled workers, or
:22:51. > :22:53.if they do let unskilled workers, they'd let them in with dependents,
:22:54. > :22:57.because they cost so much to the welfare state. This is the
:22:58. > :23:01.fundamental point, and that is why we could get lots of lots of
:23:02. > :23:04.unskilled workers. And there is a further point, that they put a
:23:05. > :23:09.depressing effect on the local wage on the local economy, which again is
:23:10. > :23:12.a factor that is very unpopular, naturally, with the people in those
:23:13. > :23:18.areas. Say you have a package that is damaging to poor people, and is
:23:19. > :23:24.not damaging to richer people and those with privilege. Lets get your
:23:25. > :23:28.response, Carolyn, because one of the things Patrick Minford is saying
:23:29. > :23:32.is that they are not paying in as much as they are taking at, browse
:23:33. > :23:35.the overall contribution the country from EU migrants according to a lot
:23:36. > :23:40.of studies, certainly in taxes paid, is greater than the amount taken at.
:23:41. > :23:44.Where I agree with Patrick is that there are local issues, and we
:23:45. > :23:49.accept that. But this is highly misleading analysis in terms of the
:23:50. > :23:54.kind of natural family composition. We know from experience that it is
:23:55. > :23:58.not a family of four that is the typical model here, and studies have
:23:59. > :24:01.shown that the net contribution is around about ?2.5 billion overall,
:24:02. > :24:05.so these are highly misleading figures. The other thing I would
:24:06. > :24:09.like to pick up on this this point about the depressing of wages. There
:24:10. > :24:11.has been a very detailed Bank of England study done at the end of
:24:12. > :24:16.last year that pulled together all of the different research on this.
:24:17. > :24:22.They concluded that the impact on immigration and wages was
:24:23. > :24:25.negligible, and close to zero. So I have to say, this is not helping or
:24:26. > :24:30.adding or clarifying this important debate at all. Patrick Minford, can
:24:31. > :24:37.I just say, low skilled British people should be more worried by the
:24:38. > :24:46.claims of the supermarket bosses that leaving the EU would cause
:24:47. > :24:51.supermarket prices to rise, rather than having their wages depressed.
:24:52. > :24:54.If you go to free trade and have competition in the supermarket to
:24:55. > :24:57.get rid of the common agricultural policy and the protectionist
:24:58. > :25:02.policies of the EU, you will bring prices down massively. What they are
:25:03. > :25:06.talking about is a temporary effect on the exchange rate of the way the
:25:07. > :25:10.economy reacts to Brexit, which is a completely different matter. And so
:25:11. > :25:15.if they look in terms of the living standards of people after the
:25:16. > :25:20.adjustment has come through, they go up. And that is what they have done,
:25:21. > :25:25.they have just said, they have assumed, like George Soros, a big
:25:26. > :25:29.policy uncertainty effect on the exchange rate, which is temporary,
:25:30. > :25:32.and the exchange rate will simply stabilise the economy like it did
:25:33. > :25:36.after we left the exchange rate mechanism. Are you worried about
:25:37. > :25:41.that, Tim Montgomerie? George Torres is worried about the Sterling
:25:42. > :25:45.falling precipitously. That would have a dramatic effect even in the
:25:46. > :25:49.short term. I was at the Bank of England, I had just joined them at
:25:50. > :25:52.the time of the week fell out of the exchange rate mechanism, and you
:25:53. > :25:58.talk about black Wednesday and Black Friday. A lot of us remember it as
:25:59. > :26:06.White Wednesday, the day a 14 year economic recovery began. There will
:26:07. > :26:12.be some uncertainty. But you don't think that is important in and of
:26:13. > :26:15.itself? The economy has automatic stabilisers, and a small downward
:26:16. > :26:19.movement in the pound would help exporters you're in that period. We
:26:20. > :26:23.don't have an inflation problem at the moment, in fact we have some
:26:24. > :26:27.risk of deviation, so a more competitive pound would suit the UK
:26:28. > :26:31.economy very well for a period, and once our trade arrangements are
:26:32. > :26:36.stabilised, we can go back to a more normal situation. Do you agree with
:26:37. > :26:39.that assessment? There are two things here. In terms of the
:26:40. > :26:48.immediate effect on the pound, I think that we can all be, there will
:26:49. > :26:56.be a pound fall,... Will it be as dramatic as George Soros said, 15%?
:26:57. > :27:01.Other areas are forecasting something similar. But the other
:27:02. > :27:05.area is what we might expect in terms of longer-term tariffs and the
:27:06. > :27:09.effect on prices. The leave campaign is now talking about falling out of
:27:10. > :27:12.the single market and facing WTO type tariffs, and that would
:27:13. > :27:17.increase prices in the long run, and I have talked to a lot of businesses
:27:18. > :27:22.who are concerned about the effects of tariffs on prices and what that
:27:23. > :27:26.would do. Given that you previously said that we shouldn't be scared if
:27:27. > :27:32.manufacturing is eliminated if we leave the EU, concentrated on other
:27:33. > :27:37.industries, why should any low paid worker trust you to have their
:27:38. > :27:42.interests at heart? That is a misquote, as you know very well.
:27:43. > :27:46.What I have said is that manufacturing that is unable to
:27:47. > :27:49.compete in the globalised world would be eliminated. I made it quite
:27:50. > :27:55.clear that high-tech manufacturing would thrive, and that is what we
:27:56. > :27:58.are looking for. Our car industry raises productivity, it already
:27:59. > :28:02.sells two thirds of his exports to the world market, and half of our
:28:03. > :28:06.exports overall go to the world market. Manufacturing can compete.
:28:07. > :28:11.It goes upmarket, that is how it works. And what in fact Carolyn
:28:12. > :28:15.misrepresented is, as they always have on this issue, we're talking
:28:16. > :28:19.about eliminating tariffs on our imports, which has a massive effect
:28:20. > :28:24.on the welfare of consumers here, and is the dynamic for the economy.
:28:25. > :28:31.And as for those tariffs on our exports Big E you may or may not
:28:32. > :28:35.slap on, -- that the EU may or may not slap on, and big companies will
:28:36. > :28:41.do it because they don't like the effects of their car experts, but we
:28:42. > :28:44.will get a competitive economy, and manufacturers who are worth their
:28:45. > :28:52.salt will welcome the contribution to raise their game. You said we
:28:53. > :28:56.misquoted you. You did say over time that we would mostly eliminate
:28:57. > :29:03.manufacturing if we left the EU, leaving mostly designed... I'm
:29:04. > :29:07.sorry, if you read more than one sentence, I made it perfectly clear
:29:08. > :29:10.that the hi tech was accepted, and the way in which manufacturing
:29:11. > :29:16.adjusts is through going up in value. That is how the CBI's members
:29:17. > :29:21.have adjusted, that is how the kindest is a world markets. You are
:29:22. > :29:25.talking in a very negative as narrow-minded way. I was trying to
:29:26. > :29:29.raise our eyes to the idea of global competition across our economy to
:29:30. > :29:33.the enormous benefit of our consumers, and we can perfectly well
:29:34. > :29:38.help our manufacturers over this rough patch where they have actually
:29:39. > :29:43.got to face global competition in their home market as well, and why
:29:44. > :29:46.not? Let be put back to Tim McGarry. Do you think people working in
:29:47. > :29:50.manufacturing and other low paid workers should listen to Patrick
:29:51. > :29:53.Minford over Carolyn Fairburn when it comes to talking about their
:29:54. > :29:59.jobs, long-term prosperity and the future? I think they should listen
:30:00. > :30:05.to everybody... That is very diplomatic! And they should also
:30:06. > :30:07.listen to James Dyson, one of our most successful inventors, or
:30:08. > :30:12.Anthony Bamford, head of JCB, Europe's largest construction
:30:13. > :30:16.manufacturer. Lots of businesses, small businesses, big visitors do
:30:17. > :30:22.very well out of the EU, partly because of the cheap labour. Small
:30:23. > :30:29.businesses who don't trade with the EU still have to put up with a lot
:30:30. > :30:30.of the EU regulations. Let me just answer that and then you can come
:30:31. > :30:40.back. This is not true, we have many small
:30:41. > :30:45.members who want to stay. A lot of what you talk about is product
:30:46. > :30:48.standardisation. A cheese manufacturer in Somerset to benefits
:30:49. > :30:52.from the standardisation in standards and packaging, many
:30:53. > :31:02.companies like that. The idea it is all about big business is wrong and
:31:03. > :31:06.it is not borne out... The great opportunity of leaving the EU is
:31:07. > :31:13.nine tenths of growth in exports is with the rest of the world. Europe
:31:14. > :31:20.is a declining part. It is declining twice as fast as America, an
:31:21. > :31:26.equivalent advanced... It is about half and half at the moment. Europe
:31:27. > :31:32.is losing its share. Because it is 28 member states, cannot agree on
:31:33. > :31:36.how to solve the Euro crisis, the refugee... It could not agree trade
:31:37. > :31:41.agreements with China or other parts of the fast-growing world. On our
:31:42. > :31:43.own, able to move in a nimble way, we consign those agreements with the
:31:44. > :31:45.emerging world. MPs and peers gathered
:31:46. > :31:48.in Westminster yesterday for a special recall of Parliament
:31:49. > :31:51.to remember the MP Jo Cox, who was brutally murdered
:31:52. > :31:53.in her constituency of Batley It was an extraordinary occasion
:31:54. > :32:00.with heartfelt tributes from politicians on all sides
:32:01. > :32:03.and a very emotional one for those We have lost one of our own,
:32:04. > :32:11.and our society as a whole has lost We need, Mr Speaker,
:32:12. > :32:17.a kinder and gentler politics. This is not a factional
:32:18. > :32:24.party political point. We all have a responsibility in this
:32:25. > :32:28.House - and beyond - not to whip up Jo was a humanitarian to her core,
:32:29. > :32:36.a passionate and brilliant campaigner whose grit
:32:37. > :32:40.and determination to fight for justice saw her time and time
:32:41. > :32:44.again driving issues up the agenda and making people listen,
:32:45. > :32:47.and above all, act. Quite simply, there are people
:32:48. > :32:52.on our planet today who are only Jo had a way with people,
:32:53. > :33:00.a way of relating to people from all walks of life,
:33:01. > :33:03.and she had a real Jo wanted to make the world fairer,
:33:04. > :33:08.more equal, more tolerant We all have better instincts
:33:09. > :33:14.and deepest fears. Jo appealed to our better instincts,
:33:15. > :33:18.our sense that, as she said in her maiden speech,
:33:19. > :33:21.what we have in common is greater Making common cause with a crusty
:33:22. > :33:29.old Tory, she and I became co-chairs She was the heart and soul of these
:33:30. > :33:38.benches, and we are heartbroken. We loved her every day,
:33:39. > :33:42.and we will miss her every day. She inspired us all,
:33:43. > :33:46.and I swear that we will do everything in our power to make her
:33:47. > :33:52.and her family incredibly proud. There was no dividing line
:33:53. > :33:54.between Jo's maternal heart Her children will grow up
:33:55. > :34:01.to know what an amazing She is such a great
:34:02. > :34:07.loss to our politics, an irreplaceable loss
:34:08. > :34:09.to her family, to whom we send She was always passionate
:34:10. > :34:17.about the issues she cared about, never afraid to stand up for those
:34:18. > :34:22.she felt had no voice, but she was also a proud Yorkshire
:34:23. > :34:25.woman, and our county Mr Speaker, the fearless
:34:26. > :34:31.Jo Cox never stopped She gave voice to the voiceless,
:34:32. > :34:39.she spoke truth to power. She exemplified the best values
:34:40. > :34:43.of our party and of our country, compassion, community,
:34:44. > :34:48.solidarity and internationalism. And she put her convictions to work
:34:49. > :34:52.for everyone she touched. For the people of Batley and Spen,
:34:53. > :34:55.for the wretched of Syria, for victims of violence
:34:56. > :35:15.and injustice everywhere. Spontaneous applause at the end of
:35:16. > :35:16.those heartfelt tributes from MPs following the brutal and tragic
:35:17. > :35:20.murder of the MP Jo Cox last week. Much of the referendum debate has
:35:21. > :35:23.centred on whether it's possible to control immigration whilst
:35:24. > :35:34.remaining a member Here is the Labour leader Jeremy
:35:35. > :35:38.Corbyn on Sunday responding to a question from the BBC's Andrew Marr
:35:39. > :35:40.about whether he thought they should be any upper limit on migration to
:35:41. > :35:41.this country. I don't think you can have one
:35:42. > :35:44.while you have a free movement of labour and I think the free
:35:45. > :35:47.movement of labour means that you have to balance the economy
:35:48. > :35:50.so you have to improve living So that means the European Union's
:35:51. > :35:54.appalling treatment of Greece, particularly the European Central
:35:55. > :35:57.Bank, as well as the European Union, If you actually deliberately lower
:35:58. > :36:03.living standards and increase poverty in certain countries
:36:04. > :36:07.in south-east or Eastern Europe, then you're bound to have a flow
:36:08. > :36:10.of people looking for somewhere Surely the issue is
:36:11. > :36:14.an anti-austerity, a growth package Now, that was seen as a gaffe
:36:15. > :36:22.by some observers - a Remain campaigner appearing
:36:23. > :36:24.to admit that immigration could not But what if you don't believe
:36:25. > :36:29.in controlling immigration and that Well, the Anglican priest
:36:30. > :36:34.and commentator Giles Fraser Tim Montgomerie has said that
:36:35. > :36:38.controlling immigration is the most important
:36:39. > :36:40.issue in the referendum. Both are in favour
:36:41. > :36:53.of leaving the EU. Tim Montgomerie, Giles Frazer Wright
:36:54. > :36:57.is critically, in this era of advance globalisation we believe in
:36:58. > :37:01.free trade, free movement of goods that not in the free movement of
:37:02. > :37:07.labour. That describes you. Why does your liberalism stop at national
:37:08. > :37:13.borders? Because it is about managing situations. I am sure Giles
:37:14. > :37:17.would not necessarily except one, two million, 3 million people coming
:37:18. > :37:22.into Britain at one point because it would overwhelm public services and
:37:23. > :37:28.communities. We should be a country that welcomes refugees and is open
:37:29. > :37:32.to humanitarian responsibilities. People are confident about playing
:37:33. > :37:36.the humanitarian role if they know the government of not letting in
:37:37. > :37:46.undesirables, that they monitor refugees, could not be including
:37:47. > :37:50.terrorists for example. Should there be an upper limit? I am not
:37:51. > :37:55.convinced there should be. It would take 3 million? I do not think that
:37:56. > :38:00.will happen, it is a fantasy figure will stop I think that is
:38:01. > :38:07.scaremongering. We have not had this obsession with borders in this
:38:08. > :38:10.country, it is only 100 years since we had immigration controls, which
:38:11. > :38:13.we started having because people were terrified of the amount of
:38:14. > :38:18.Jewish people coming to this country, that is how it started.
:38:19. > :38:24.There is a racist element about border controls, as there was then
:38:25. > :38:31.and as there is now. A lot of the fear is that there will be the other
:38:32. > :38:37.who will come to swamp us. I think it is a fantasy. You believe that
:38:38. > :38:42.people like Tim Montgomerie who say they should be managed, our races? I
:38:43. > :38:51.think Tim is right about this, we should be in control of our borders.
:38:52. > :38:54.I think... I want to make the case we should be in control of them and
:38:55. > :39:02.it should be democratically decided and we should be... I may be an
:39:03. > :39:06.extremist on this, but we could be more generous than now and we should
:39:07. > :39:11.be generous particularly to people from outside the EU. The EU itself
:39:12. > :39:15.is shockingly bad on migrants and migration. That is where I agreed.
:39:16. > :39:23.Would you like to see greater numbers, perhaps equal numbers,
:39:24. > :39:26.equal numbers in hundreds of thousands of people from outside the
:39:27. > :39:33.EU? I will not say whether it is equal or not but where I agree with
:39:34. > :39:37.Giles, I think he might live in fantasies land on his general
:39:38. > :39:41.position but an Indian, Australian, South African, should not have
:39:42. > :39:44.second-class status when it comes to entering Britain compared to a
:39:45. > :39:55.French or German person. The problem is not little England, but European.
:39:56. > :40:02.It has become inward looking as a continent. As Giles said, border
:40:03. > :40:08.controls have always been racist, going back to the 30s, not allowing
:40:09. > :40:13.Jewish people escaping Germany. With all due respect... You know when
:40:14. > :40:17.someone says that... Accusing people who worry about immigration of
:40:18. > :40:22.racism, of course there is some races and it is unfair, opinion
:40:23. > :40:26.polls, every ethnic minority community of Britain is opposed to
:40:27. > :40:29.large-scale immigration. It is not about the colour of the skin or
:40:30. > :40:37.religion of the immigrant, it is about the scale. You are one of
:40:38. > :40:40.those people who floats around the world on your passport because you
:40:41. > :40:49.are back and forth. Borders mean nothing to you because you are
:40:50. > :40:53.wealthy enough. African farmers, people in poor countries, for whom
:40:54. > :40:59.borders mean something, Syrian, they mean nothing to us. There is
:41:00. > :41:04.definitely... It is about penning the poor people into poverty. What
:41:05. > :41:09.about community cohesion, that must be something you worry about. There
:41:10. > :41:15.are risks outlined by some people that if you don't have it managed,
:41:16. > :41:20.you will need a breakdown. What has happened in the referendum is a
:41:21. > :41:24.classic example. There is a large group of people who feel completely
:41:25. > :41:28.they have not been listened to and they are not attended to and they
:41:29. > :41:38.are readily exploited by those who want to go... This is all about this
:41:39. > :41:42.scary other immigrant. I think their anxiety is more about jobs, housing,
:41:43. > :41:46.the real thing is for people. I think people in this country are not
:41:47. > :41:50.concerned about the colour of the skin about the person living next
:41:51. > :41:56.door to them. So they are not racist, you have contradicted
:41:57. > :42:00.yourself? I think the idea we have to insist on our borders, there is
:42:01. > :42:07.something racist about that, that we have to build up a moat. I do not
:42:08. > :42:13.think British people are racist, I think that this is being exploited
:42:14. > :42:22.by people like Nigel Farage, there is a genuine feeling of anger that
:42:23. > :42:26.people have not been listened to which is being exploited and changed
:42:27. > :42:30.and shifted in this debate over the referendum. If you think it is a key
:42:31. > :42:36.issue, immigration. The polls seem to bear that out. You think on
:42:37. > :42:41.balance when it is stood alongside the economy and the value of the
:42:42. > :42:49.muddy in people'spocket, that will trump issues of immigration -- value
:42:50. > :42:52.of money. People can see both sides of the economic debate is balance.
:42:53. > :43:00.There are costs of leaving the single market. I also think they can
:43:01. > :43:02.see the advantages of having better connections with fast-growing parts
:43:03. > :43:11.of the world. The economic argument is muddy for people. But there
:43:12. > :43:13.of the world. The economic argument only one way we can get control of
:43:14. > :43:18.borders and that is to leave the EU. That is one big factor in this
:43:19. > :43:22.debate in a debate with few facts. If we have that control, Giles can
:43:23. > :43:28.stand on his manifesto of letting anybody in and I will stand on mine
:43:29. > :43:33.of controlling. We could see who could get more votes. We will do
:43:34. > :43:37.of controlling. We could see who that! If you are in a position of
:43:38. > :43:42.principal about this. I am flagging up a principle and these principles
:43:43. > :43:50.the west has had. Look on the Statue of Liberty and the moving quote,
:43:51. > :43:54.bring me your huddled masses. No one is living up to that because they
:43:55. > :43:59.are building a fence around it to stop Mexicans coming in. What about
:44:00. > :44:05.the tone, has it been what you would like to hear on the immigration
:44:06. > :44:12.debate? No. All sides of this debate in different ways have sometimes let
:44:13. > :44:18.themselves down. I think the Nigel Farage poster that has been
:44:19. > :44:22.controversial was not acceptable. It was not factual. It portrayed dark
:44:23. > :44:27.skinned people trying to get into Britain when they were not even
:44:28. > :44:33.trying to get into Europe. It was not acceptable, that aspect of the
:44:34. > :44:40.debate. Just because the poster ad Nigel Farage has behaved
:44:41. > :44:44.inappropriately, it does not mean working-class communities seeing
:44:45. > :44:47.their wages depressed, that is not racist, it is a reasonable concern
:44:48. > :44:54.about immigration's impact on local economies.
:44:55. > :44:57.Giles Fraser, thank you for coming in.
:44:58. > :44:59.Now, there's been name calling, furious briefing
:45:00. > :45:02.So can the Tory party put itself back together
:45:03. > :45:03.after Thursday's referendum - and how?
:45:04. > :45:06.In a moment, we'll be joined by the leading
:45:07. > :45:12.Conservative Remain campaigner, who's being making his case forcibly
:45:13. > :45:15.on social media - Nicholas Soames - first here's a little reminder
:45:16. > :45:17.of the less obliging things Conservatives have
:45:18. > :45:22.I think the strain of the campaign is
:45:23. > :45:26.Lord Heseltine is a frightful old humbug who divided
:45:27. > :45:29.the Conservative Party more than anybody else in our modern
:45:30. > :45:32.history, and a period of silence on his part would be welcome.
:45:33. > :45:35.I must say, it is always good to hear voices from the past.
:45:36. > :45:37.I'd be grateful if they remained in the past.
:45:38. > :45:46.Well, he's the life and soul of the party.
:45:47. > :45:48.But he's not the man you want driving you home
:45:49. > :45:55.The Chancellor bascially needs to calm down and regrettably
:45:56. > :46:02.When I heard that, I did think of Pinocchio and the nose
:46:03. > :46:10.Unfortunately, those of us at the outset with that very
:46:11. > :46:15.clear, inclusive, moderate vision for Brexit have, over time,
:46:16. > :46:17.been taken over by a message which is divisive,
:46:18. > :46:18.which is inward-looking, which is xenophobic.
:46:19. > :46:38.Well, Nicholas Soames is with us here. There are two letters
:46:39. > :46:41.circulating in Tory circles that have been reported, one calling for
:46:42. > :46:46.a vote of no-confidence in David Cameron's leadership. Are the people
:46:47. > :46:51.who have signed it treacherous? I think it is up to them whether they
:46:52. > :46:55.signed a letter or not. It is not something I would personally do, and
:46:56. > :46:59.I think it is very unhelpful, and as we have no idea how matters will
:47:00. > :47:05.turnout, I think it is a foolish thing to do, but it is well known
:47:06. > :47:08.that there are people who have had it in the David Cameron since the
:47:09. > :47:19.day he was elected. My colleague Nadine Dorries put her objection
:47:20. > :47:27.into the Prime Minister within a week of
:47:28. > :47:30.him being in government. I am a fan of the Prime Minister, and he has
:47:31. > :47:36.already announced he will leave before the next election, so what is
:47:37. > :47:41.the point? There is another letter saying that the Prime Minister must
:47:42. > :47:46.stay in situ, but it does indicate the bad blood that is running
:47:47. > :47:51.through the Conservative Party? I am an agnostic on this, because I think
:47:52. > :47:58.there is a bad blood, a bit of bad blood, but by and large, this has
:47:59. > :48:04.not been as bad as Maastricht. You don't think it is as bad? That was a
:48:05. > :48:07.matter for the House of Commons. This is a fundamental disagreement
:48:08. > :48:12.throughout the country. This isn't just in the House of Commons. OK,
:48:13. > :48:17.there is some bad blood around, but it is not blood that is bad enough
:48:18. > :48:21.for us not to come together on a big agenda. Do you agree with that? I
:48:22. > :48:26.don't think John Major has ever really forgiven Iain Duncan Smith as
:48:27. > :48:32.example of post Maastricht relations. Do you think this will
:48:33. > :48:36.really change whatever the result? I don't think it will be easy, because
:48:37. > :48:41.this has been a massive national debate, but one of the advantages
:48:42. > :48:46.the Conservative Party has, Conservative minded people like me
:48:47. > :48:49.can see Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, which I'm sure if David
:48:50. > :48:56.Cameron is why is coming he will bring in in some form, people like
:48:57. > :48:59.Nicolas who support Remain, they concede David Cameron George
:49:00. > :49:05.Osborne, we have people who, if the party does form a broad cabinet
:49:06. > :49:09.after this, we can see our people at the top. The contrast with the
:49:10. > :49:13.Labour Party is the huge number of working-class Labour supporters who
:49:14. > :49:16.are voting to leave, there is almost no one at the top of the Labour
:49:17. > :49:19.Party that represents them. There has been a lot of focus on the
:49:20. > :49:23.problems is that the Conservative Party, but it may well be that the
:49:24. > :49:26.Labour Party loses a lot of its supporters' trust because of the
:49:27. > :49:30.referendum. We're talking about the politicians and the people in the
:49:31. > :49:35.Cabinet at the moment of the MPs that do or don't support them. From
:49:36. > :49:37.the outside, Carolyn, are you frightened about what might happen
:49:38. > :49:44.after the result, whether leave or remain wins in terms of political
:49:45. > :49:46.stability? It is a concern to business, because the uncertainty
:49:47. > :49:52.that has already been created could be perpetuated by the politics after
:49:53. > :49:56.whatever outcome we see. That said, I think businesses are very used to
:49:57. > :49:59.working with whatever kind of political environment that they
:50:00. > :50:02.find, and I think one of the things that they are going to want to try
:50:03. > :50:07.to do is see as much stability as quickly as possible. Let's assume
:50:08. > :50:11.Remain wins a narrow victory, will Conservative backbenchers accept
:50:12. > :50:16.that result, those who have campaigned so vociferously for At?
:50:17. > :50:22.They have said that the result is the result. And I agree exactly with
:50:23. > :50:27.Tim, I think he is very right, that the Prime Minister, he is a bigger
:50:28. > :50:32.man, and it will be a magnanimous and proper reshuffle, which will
:50:33. > :50:36.reflect all wings of the party. So having Michael Gove sitting in the
:50:37. > :50:41.Cabinet... I'm sure that will happen, but the most important thing
:50:42. > :50:46.is that there is a major agenda of social justice reform which the
:50:47. > :50:49.whole Tory party want to rally behind, and that includes prison
:50:50. > :50:53.reform, further stuff on education, an allsorts of stuff that we haven't
:50:54. > :50:56.done well enough on yet, and which need doing. And you will need
:50:57. > :51:00.support from that, and support from your own site, because there is a
:51:01. > :51:04.small majority. If one accuses political rivals of being liars,
:51:05. > :51:08.read Tories, you are talking nonsense, misleading the voters, it
:51:09. > :51:17.creates a poisonous atmosphere, and you yourself have lost your temper a
:51:18. > :51:23.couple of times. Could you serve in a party where Eurosceptics were
:51:24. > :51:26.driving is out of the EU? I lost my temper with Boris when he said
:51:27. > :51:29.something foolish about my grandfather, but he is a good friend
:51:30. > :51:35.and I am having dinner with him next week. We are on opposite sides, but
:51:36. > :51:38.this is not a civil war, it is a disagreement, and I predict to you,
:51:39. > :51:41.Jo, that the party will come together whatever the result,
:51:42. > :51:45.because it always does and because it has two. I fixed the problem is
:51:46. > :51:52.that the Tories do have a narrow majority anyway. Even before the
:51:53. > :51:54.referendum began, you saw rebellion on tax credits, on disability. The
:51:55. > :51:58.particular problem isn't the social justice system, which the
:51:59. > :52:03.Conservative Party can unite behind, it is the unfinished work of deficit
:52:04. > :52:07.reduction. It is the unfinished work of economic policy. The wisest thing
:52:08. > :52:13.the Prime Minister will do assuming he hangs on his move George Osborne.
:52:14. > :52:18.He has become a particular source of disunity. I think he should move to
:52:19. > :52:24.the Foreign Office, it is in his own long-term interests if he wants to
:52:25. > :52:29.be leader. Do you agree with that? These are matters for the Prime
:52:30. > :52:31.Minister. As it so happens, I think George Osborne would be a
:52:32. > :52:37.first-class Foreign Secretary, I think he has been a first-class
:52:38. > :52:41.Chancellor. But would he be moved, sacrificed? Some of the great
:52:42. > :52:44.offices of state will be freed up to allow others to come in, and I think
:52:45. > :52:48.that is a fact of life. Nicholas Soames, thank you. Thank you.
:52:49. > :52:50.Now, did I mention that there's a big debate -
:52:51. > :52:52.a Great Debate, indeed - being broadcast live
:52:53. > :52:54.from Wembley on BBC One at 8pm this evening?
:52:55. > :52:59.It's already hosted boxing and wrestling this year,
:53:00. > :53:02.and Wembley Arena is getting ready for the biggest tussle
:53:03. > :53:04.In the Remain corner, the Scottish Conservative
:53:05. > :53:08.leader, Ruth Davidson, the Mayor of London,
:53:09. > :53:12.Sadiq Khan, and the TUC general secretary, Frances O'Grady.
:53:13. > :53:15.In the Leave corner, the Labour MP Gisela Stuart,
:53:16. > :53:19.the energy minister Andrea Leadsom and him.
:53:20. > :53:21.This is the dressing room that Boris Johnson will be using.
:53:22. > :53:26.It is surprisingly unglamorous, but in the interests of balance,
:53:27. > :53:31.I'm reliably informed there will be some snacks on this table
:53:32. > :53:36.At least there's a mirror with showbiz lights round it.
:53:37. > :53:38.Then the walk through here, through these doors
:53:39. > :53:50.Up here on the main stage, the Remainers will be on one side.
:53:51. > :53:53.The Leavers will make their case on the opposite side.
:53:54. > :53:55.I think these guys will be finished by then.
:53:56. > :53:58.David Dimbleby will chair things from here.
:53:59. > :54:01.Each side will also be able to make an opening and closing statement,
:54:02. > :54:04.which they will deliver from here to the audience out there.
:54:05. > :54:11.They're split 50/50 between Leave and Remain,
:54:12. > :54:13.and unlike a football match, everyone will be sitting
:54:14. > :54:17.Each section of the debate will start with some questions
:54:18. > :54:19.from the audience on subjects like immigration or the economy.
:54:20. > :54:27.This is the second stage, where each campaign will have five
:54:28. > :54:30.more representatives drawn from the other political
:54:31. > :54:32.parties and the worlds of business and journalism.
:54:33. > :54:38.Across the road from the arena is this building,
:54:39. > :54:43.It seems pretty quiet now, but soon there will be about 200
:54:44. > :54:48.hacks and spokespeople in here, because it's the spin room.
:54:49. > :54:50.And because we are scrupulously impartial in this sensitive
:54:51. > :54:54.political period, at the same time on ITV,
:54:55. > :54:56.it's Spain versus Croatia, and Channel 4 has a house
:54:57. > :55:10.Well, Adam obviously enjoying himself. It will be very exciting.
:55:11. > :55:13.Now, time to find out the answer to our quiz.
:55:14. > :55:17.The question was which of these moggies wants out?
:55:18. > :55:21.Of the EU, that is, not just out of the house!
:55:22. > :55:29.So, Tim and Carolyn, what's the correct answer?
:55:30. > :55:43.I think it is D. I think it is real grumpy cat. It is in fact the right
:55:44. > :55:50.answer. Look at that face! What are you saying, you have to be grumpy to
:55:51. > :55:55.be voting out? I recognise Dan Hammond, and I can't believe he
:55:56. > :56:00.would have a cat in favour of Britain staying in the EU.
:56:01. > :56:02.Yes, that's Leave campaigner Dan Hannan with his cat.
:56:03. > :56:05.Because the fur has been flying on Twitter, with rival sides
:56:06. > :56:07.in the referendum debate posting pics of their moggies
:56:08. > :56:10.claiming their feline friends share their own views on the EU.
:56:11. > :56:20.Kate Bevan and her cat Daphne. They have been supporting the Cats
:56:21. > :56:29.against Brexit campaign, and James is here with his cat, they are
:56:30. > :56:37.supporting Cats for Brexit. If you follow her cat flap on Twitter, you
:56:38. > :56:41.can see her being mostly in other than out, she's burned a lot of time
:56:42. > :56:45.on the sofa, and she is worried about her cat supplies from the EU.
:56:46. > :56:52.How do you know that your cat prefers out? My cat is
:56:53. > :56:55.pro-immigration, she was a rescue cat, and she is internationalist,
:56:56. > :56:59.she is often seen in the neighbours' Gardens, and she doesn't like the
:57:00. > :57:04.cage of Fortress Europe as you can see here, she feels that it is
:57:05. > :57:13.somewhat stacked against in terms of the fat cats who bully her with
:57:14. > :57:16.stories of recessions in cat food. I wonder how long you have been
:57:17. > :57:20.preparing these answers and watching their behaviour! What difference
:57:21. > :57:23.does it make whether we are a night of Europe as opposed to the
:57:24. > :57:28.contented lives of all the cats I know? Generali, I am in favour of
:57:29. > :57:32.staying in Europe, because I think there is a lot to be said for free
:57:33. > :57:36.movement of labour and free movement of cats across garden fences. I can
:57:37. > :57:42.see the free movement of your cat, who has just wandered off! The crew
:57:43. > :57:48.will have to look after, look out for her later. I think she cares
:57:49. > :57:52.about is in the house, and she wants to have a happy house, and we are
:57:53. > :57:58.excited about Thursday, and I hope she is, to. So do you think the cats
:57:59. > :58:06.feeling tense atmosphere? Do they react to their owners? I will take
:58:07. > :58:12.her away from Tim, because I think he is a little allergic. Do they
:58:13. > :58:17.notice if things are uptight in the house? I'm not so sure. And do she
:58:18. > :58:20.respond to the atmosphere? She has been an social media making sure
:58:21. > :58:25.people know where she stands on this thing. She is very clear about it.
:58:26. > :58:32.She wants plenty of fish coming into the country, no restrictions are
:58:33. > :58:37.plenty of catnip coming in. In the interest of BBC ballads, will dogs
:58:38. > :58:42.be featured tomorrow? You can write to the programme editor! Has it
:58:43. > :58:45.persuaded you at all. I had a long conversation with my cats that
:58:46. > :58:46.morning about the economic case, and they are definitely in! They
:58:47. > :58:48.probably ran out! The one o'clock news is starting
:58:49. > :59:01.over on BBC One now. It has been a ten Mac One Show! I
:59:02. > :59:02.had to get