:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.Theresa May's on a mission to bring back grammar schools.
:00:43. > :00:45.The Government will publish a green paper on its plans this afternoon.
:00:46. > :00:49.But it could be a tough ride for the new PM.
:00:50. > :00:51.Labour, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats oppose the plans.
:00:52. > :00:55.And many Tories don't like the idea either.
:00:56. > :00:58.And it's a year to the day since Jeremy Corbyn became leader
:00:59. > :01:01.Let's hope he's celebrating in style.
:01:02. > :01:06.He might not be if he's been reading the latest set of polls.
:01:07. > :01:10.We hear from one academic who thinks many degress aren't worth
:01:11. > :01:19.The Democratic Presidential nominee faces serious
:01:20. > :01:20.questions over her health, after admitting she's
:01:21. > :01:38.And with us for the duration - the Conservative MP Heidi Allan,
:01:39. > :01:40.and the Labour MP and prominient Brexiter Gisela Stuart,
:01:41. > :01:42.who this morning launched a new pressure group,
:01:43. > :01:45.Change Britain, campaigning to make Brexit a success.
:01:46. > :01:47.The group has notable supporters, including the Foreign Secretary,
:01:48. > :01:57.We can now say the decision taken to leave the EU...
:01:58. > :01:59.On the 23rd of June, the people of this country voted
:02:00. > :02:03.to leave the European Union and they voted for change.
:02:04. > :02:09.But there were many people who also voted for Remain.
:02:10. > :02:13.So it's absolutely vital that we work together,
:02:14. > :02:17.Leavers and Remainers, as we seize the opportunities
:02:18. > :02:20.that this country now has to forge a positive and exciting
:02:21. > :02:22.new relationship, not just with the European Union,
:02:23. > :02:34.Changing Britain and making it global again.
:02:35. > :02:43.Boris Johnson. Welcome, ladies, to the programme. Why is Boris Johnson,
:02:44. > :02:49.as Foreign Secretary, spearheading a Vote Leave pressure group? It is not
:02:50. > :02:56.a pressure group for Vote Leave. It is an acknowledgement that this was
:02:57. > :03:00.a hard-fought referendum. While the result was clear, 48% voted to
:03:01. > :03:06.remain. But the decision has been made. It is a difficult task to work
:03:07. > :03:11.out how we negotiate and get the best deal. Do you trust Theresa May
:03:12. > :03:17.to do it? I do. She has not done anything so far to make me not trust
:03:18. > :03:23.her. She's not really done anything, some might say? But we have to bring
:03:24. > :03:28.both leave and remain voters together for the best interests of
:03:29. > :03:33.the country. Is it appropriate for the Foreign Secretary to be part of
:03:34. > :03:35.it? He is championing it, the main patrons are Robert Salisbury and
:03:36. > :03:41.Maurice Glassman, so you have the political spectrum and you have both
:03:42. > :03:45.leave and remain supporters. I would like to know where the Remainers
:03:46. > :03:52.are. Would he reach out with somebody like Heidi Allen? Would you
:03:53. > :03:55.join? No, because I think, and I understand, so emotive from both
:03:56. > :04:03.sides, but we have to give the Prime Minister a chance. Everybody is
:04:04. > :04:07.entitled to form their own opinions, but it is time for the Prime
:04:08. > :04:09.Minister, she set of the departments, she was meeting
:04:10. > :04:15.European leaders, she is getting on with it. I don't think we need that
:04:16. > :04:18.group yet. Looks as if the group does not trust the Government to do
:04:19. > :04:23.what they said they would do? I don't know if it is about trust. My
:04:24. > :04:28.sense is that it is about keeping the pressure on so that it never
:04:29. > :04:31.relents and that Brexit is what we achieve. I don't believe for a
:04:32. > :04:34.minute that she will go back on that, I think Theresa May is very
:04:35. > :04:39.determined. If you feel you need to do it, fine. For me, I think it is
:04:40. > :04:48.early to put that pressure on. Which Remainers have you got on board? We
:04:49. > :04:53.have literally just started this. I am probably one of the last people
:04:54. > :05:00.that have done negotiations across Whitehall with 27 European states,
:05:01. > :05:04.when we were working on the European constitution. What I learned was
:05:05. > :05:08.that even when you have a clear political direction, you do need a
:05:09. > :05:11.platform where you can thrash out ideas. Government, you always expect
:05:12. > :05:16.them to come out with perfectly formed policies. Currently, they are
:05:17. > :05:20.saying, you know, we're working on this behind-the-scenes. We are
:05:21. > :05:23.saying we can help you to work on those policies. Do you think that is
:05:24. > :05:30.realistically going to happen, particularly when leaders of the
:05:31. > :05:32.Vote Leave campaign have been asked to apologise for promising there
:05:33. > :05:36.would be ?350 million of extra money for the NHS? You have been asked to
:05:37. > :05:41.apologise by Labour colleagues. Will you apologise for that? To which I
:05:42. > :05:45.say, unless we actually leave the European Union, there is nothing of
:05:46. > :05:51.this we can do. We said that is the money we spend on the NHS, no, on
:05:52. > :05:56.Brussels, we should fund the NHS. I said if it was my priority, I would
:05:57. > :06:00.spend it on the NHS. Is it in your manifesto, in this group? This is
:06:01. > :06:05.why it is not a pressure group or manifesto. You have a manifesto? We
:06:06. > :06:09.have the key principles of what we thought people were looking for, the
:06:10. > :06:14.brakes of links between people and trade, links of supremacy of EU law.
:06:15. > :06:19.The NHS pledge was at the heart of your message, wasn't it? It is a bit
:06:20. > :06:23.surprisingly was not there? The NHS was the example, if you are spending
:06:24. > :06:26.that kind of money and do not have control on what to do with it, I
:06:27. > :06:32.would spend it on the NHS. It was about to take control of spending
:06:33. > :06:36.decisions. Do you think these are was right, that the campaign is
:06:37. > :06:43.over, there were many arguments about pledges and claims, money
:06:44. > :06:48.being alleged the NHS, do think we need to move on from that? I do,
:06:49. > :06:51.people have come away very wounded on both sides, people have been
:06:52. > :06:57.tarred with a brush on the leave side that is not deserved. My word
:06:58. > :07:00.of caution on this whole project, lobby group, those wounds, I don't
:07:01. > :07:04.feel they have healed yet. It feels like whipping it up again before the
:07:05. > :07:07.Prime Minister has had a chance to harmonise the country. I think she
:07:08. > :07:11.is capable of doing that and I would be wary for that reason. You think
:07:12. > :07:18.it is going to fuel division, rather than bringing people together?
:07:19. > :07:22.Potentially, that would be my worry. She is the leader of the country,
:07:23. > :07:26.calming and measured, she is the one to bring the sides back together
:07:27. > :07:30.again. I worry this might rip it up. You may a fair point, what I would
:07:31. > :07:36.add to that is that we have had large sections of Labour core voters
:07:37. > :07:39.that voted to leave. They need their say and fair representation. You are
:07:40. > :07:44.right to put the challenge to us, that we need to make sure we focus
:07:45. > :07:47.on the healing process. It has to be a national decision. It was a
:07:48. > :07:51.national decision to leave and the implimentation must represent the
:07:52. > :07:54.whole country. Come back and tell us how it is going on in terms of
:07:55. > :07:57.recruiting remainers. It's a tough job being the presenter
:07:58. > :08:02.of a political news programme - I should know - but yesterday,
:08:03. > :08:04.Sky News' Dermot Murnaghan was given a particularly
:08:05. > :08:06.hard time by one guest, At the end of the show,
:08:07. > :08:27.Heidi and Gisela will give The government will put more flesh
:08:28. > :08:32.on its grammar schools policy later today with a new green paper and
:08:33. > :08:35.statement to MPs. Some councils are already reportedly making plans to
:08:36. > :08:37.create new grammar school places. But there are big obstacles in the
:08:38. > :08:40.way before the plans become reality. Education Secretary Justine Greening
:08:41. > :08:43.will spell out her plans in more The Government wants to allow
:08:44. > :08:47.all state schools in England to select pupils by academic ability
:08:48. > :08:49."in the right circumstances" ?50 million of new funding will also
:08:50. > :08:56.be allocated to help existing The Sunday Times reported that five
:08:57. > :09:02.councils are already considering taking
:09:03. > :09:03.advantage of the changes - Thurrock, Kent, Bedfordshire,
:09:04. > :09:05.Northamptonshire, and But opposition to the proposals
:09:06. > :09:14.is already being voiced. Labour says the plans
:09:15. > :09:17.will "entrench inequality". And even within the Conservative
:09:18. > :09:21.Party, there is fierce opposition. Justine Greening's predecessor,
:09:22. > :09:23.Nicky Morgan, said the plans would be, "At best, a distraction
:09:24. > :09:25.from crucial reforms At worse, risk actively undermining
:09:26. > :09:31.six years of progressive Let's talk now to our political
:09:32. > :09:48.correspondent, Eleanor Garnier. Tell us about the Tory opposition.
:09:49. > :09:52.With the majority that Theresa May has, there could be problems in the
:09:53. > :09:56.Commons? She can't afford to have too many unhappy Tories on the
:09:57. > :09:59.backbenches. As well as Nicky Morgan, we heard from the chair of
:10:00. > :10:04.the Education Select Committee, Neil Carmichael. He says there is no
:10:05. > :10:07.compelling evidence that grammar schools help disadvantaged children
:10:08. > :10:12.climb up that social ladder. He says he is becoming a little bit more
:10:13. > :10:16.content with the plans. We have heard from Sarah Wollaston, another
:10:17. > :10:19.senior Tory, chair of the health select committee, and Desmond
:10:20. > :10:24.Swayne, who have both voiced concerns. There are reports over the
:10:25. > :10:29.weekend that Patrick McLoughlin, the former Transport Secretary and now
:10:30. > :10:33.chair of the Tories, of him saying a great debate on grammar schools
:10:34. > :10:38.would not help. I am told he is now not just 100%, but 200% behind the
:10:39. > :10:41.plans. In terms of a timetable, it is very difficult to say at the
:10:42. > :10:47.moment exactly when these plans would come on board. But with the
:10:48. > :10:51.opposition that exists, it is now, at this point, not definite it will
:10:52. > :11:02.happen at all? That is exacting right. As you have reported, we have
:11:03. > :11:04.councils already making plans. The changes will need legislation to get
:11:05. > :11:06.through Parliament. We have already talked about opposition in the
:11:07. > :11:09.Commons. Even if Theresa May manages to get some of the ideas through the
:11:10. > :11:11.Commons, she will have a difficult time in House of Lords whether
:11:12. > :11:15.Government does not have a majority. We have had warnings from people
:11:16. > :11:18.like Baroness Smith, the leader of Labour in the Lords, saying the
:11:19. > :11:22.government does not have a mandate. It was not in the manifesto and it
:11:23. > :11:26.will have a challenging time getting it to the House of Lords. Briefly,
:11:27. > :11:32.what is pushing this? What is driving this for Theresa May? It's
:11:33. > :11:35.interesting, I don't think there was a clamour of backbenchers banging on
:11:36. > :11:39.her door to get the policy through. I think we should reflect on her own
:11:40. > :11:43.experience at school. She went to a grammar school, as did one of her
:11:44. > :11:47.key advisers, Nick Timothy, who has a lot of influence behind the scenes
:11:48. > :11:56.at Number 10. Remember her Cabinet, 20 of her Cabinet went to state
:11:57. > :11:59.school, around half a dozen of those were grammar schools. Remember what
:12:00. > :12:08.she said on the steps of Downing Street, when she took office. I
:12:09. > :12:12.think this is a appeal to them. She is saying, I am prepared to make a
:12:13. > :12:17.stamp on this and be a little bit radical. Thank you very much.
:12:18. > :12:22.Joining us now is the Conservative MP Mark Field, who is in favour of
:12:23. > :12:25.reintroducing grammar schools. Welcome to the Daily Politics. How
:12:26. > :12:29.do you explain selective schools working for everybody? It is a
:12:30. > :12:35.contradiction in terms, they don't. I think they do work for everybody.
:12:36. > :12:39.I think it raises standards. The other thing to remember, and it goes
:12:40. > :12:44.back to your previous discussion, we live in a different world today. We
:12:45. > :12:48.have to compete internationally. One of the strengths of what Theresa May
:12:49. > :12:51.is proposing is not a throwback to ideological battles within the
:12:52. > :12:56.Conservative Party and beyond about grammar schools, heading back to the
:12:57. > :13:01.60s... It was a big ideological battle. Was at the time, many of us
:13:02. > :13:04.were involved at the time. A Labour council tried to close down my
:13:05. > :13:09.school, and that made me a conservative from my teens. The real
:13:10. > :13:16.issue is that we are in this very competitive labour world. Look at
:13:17. > :13:18.China, the cultural passion they have for education. This is
:13:19. > :13:21.something very important. What is key is not to luck at this simply as
:13:22. > :13:27.an issue about grammar schools, she put a warning shot across the bow is
:13:28. > :13:38.volley bowels of Independent schools, -- she got a warning shot
:13:39. > :13:47.across the of this... Independent schools. The academically gifted
:13:48. > :13:50.will have the opportunity of grammar schools more widely. You say they
:13:51. > :13:54.work for everybody, because they raise standards. But the figures do
:13:55. > :13:57.not bear that out. They show clearly that where there are grammar
:13:58. > :14:00.schools, where there have been grammar schools, children on free
:14:01. > :14:05.school meals perform less well than in areas where there are not grammar
:14:06. > :14:09.schools. Not only does it select only a few people that have the
:14:10. > :14:15.benefit, it disadvantages those who do not go. Hang on, the difficulty
:14:16. > :14:19.is, there are relatively few grammar schools left, mainly in leafy
:14:20. > :14:24.middle-class suburbs. But they don't work. The sort of seat I represent
:14:25. > :14:28.in central London, where the Chinese and Bangladeshi population would
:14:29. > :14:33.give their eye teeth to have the opportunity of grammar schools.
:14:34. > :14:36.Those schools were the first to be abolished. They did not have the
:14:37. > :14:43.active parents able to preserve them, when the culture war to place.
:14:44. > :14:46.Are you saying free schools and academies, championed by the
:14:47. > :14:52.previous government matter have been a failure? Not at all. So why not
:14:53. > :14:56.put resources into those? We are, it is not an entire change of
:14:57. > :15:02.direction. What we want to give is the power for those in existing
:15:03. > :15:05.grammar school in areas that want more places, partly because of
:15:06. > :15:07.increased population, to be able to do so. Heidi Allen, are you going to
:15:08. > :15:17.support this? I am not sure, I am looking forward
:15:18. > :15:22.to hearing that the statement this afternoon. My gut instinct is, why
:15:23. > :15:26.not? If you are bright, we should encourage the best children to learn
:15:27. > :15:31.and I am glad about the technical college side of things because my
:15:32. > :15:34.worst fear is those left behind. In my very high-tech, high science
:15:35. > :15:37.constituency in South Cambridgeshire, we do not have
:15:38. > :15:41.enough people learning the other jobs and my beer is we will end up
:15:42. > :15:49.with grammar schools and everybody else falling by the wayside and that
:15:50. > :15:54.there was a binary choice. Why does Theresa May think this is the answer
:15:55. > :15:58.and not put the effort and resources into the technical challenges --
:15:59. > :16:02.technical colleges that have been championed by former Conservative
:16:03. > :16:07.Canada Baker? I do not know and I hope we will hear more later. I like
:16:08. > :16:13.the model of technical colleges by Kenneth Baker. He is saying the one
:16:14. > :16:18.gap in the reforms of the 1980s was part of the focus of the system.
:16:19. > :16:22.What I am very positive about is there a sense of great meritocracy
:16:23. > :16:27.and it is important in the world we live in and part of the post Brexit
:16:28. > :16:31.debate that on the educational side, Theresa May is grabbing hold of
:16:32. > :16:36.this. And it comes from the heart, it is very authentic, where she
:16:37. > :16:41.stands and what she believes in. In the last 20 years, you have been
:16:42. > :16:44.people pushing aside that they had privileged private education and
:16:45. > :16:48.that has not been the authenticity we have seen from Theresa May and I
:16:49. > :16:53.wish her the best. Is this a step forward towards social meritocracy
:16:54. > :17:00.or a retrograde step? I am utterly puzzled, I am a Bermuda made --
:17:01. > :17:04.Birmingham MP where Tony Blair gave his education, education speech. You
:17:05. > :17:10.have got the King Edward foundations in Birmingham and they have 25% of
:17:11. > :17:14.their bursary places and they work with the local Academies and with
:17:15. > :17:17.Birmingham University in one of their schools and there is a
:17:18. > :17:23.reaching out. This is what is being proposed. Why pick this fight?
:17:24. > :17:26.Technical colleges, did hate -- the debate is about the age of
:17:27. > :17:32.transition because technical colleges take them at the age of 14
:17:33. > :17:39.and I think it is really important. Under the current structure, it will
:17:40. > :17:45.be only the ones not comfortable in the schools. The proposals as I see
:17:46. > :17:49.them is an answer to a question I cannot define. We have a shortage of
:17:50. > :17:53.school places in the West Midlands, 45,000 missing, and what needs to be
:17:54. > :17:57.done, but expansion of grammar schools? If you live in Edgbaston or
:17:58. > :18:04.Harborne and you are well off, you can also sign a check and why should
:18:05. > :18:08.the best education be exclusively in the preserve of those well off?
:18:09. > :18:12.People will argue it will still be the preserve of those who can afford
:18:13. > :18:16.to pay for expensive tuition and the problem is we have seen an increase
:18:17. > :18:20.in tuition privately at home of children going to all sorts of
:18:21. > :18:24.schools, it is very expensive and there will be a race to get their
:18:25. > :18:31.children in the fire expensive tuition at home which most will not
:18:32. > :18:37.be able to afford. -- via. Some people, any system... For my own
:18:38. > :18:47.experience, I assure you everybody who can afford it does it and they
:18:48. > :18:52.get ahead! That is what happens. I want to see a sense of the reasons
:18:53. > :18:56.and excellence at the core of our education system. Applying in an
:18:57. > :19:00.academic sense and non-academic sense, we need it to succeed in the
:19:01. > :19:05.21st century in this very competitive world. Was there a
:19:06. > :19:09.climber from MPs for this to happen? It was not in the manifesto which is
:19:10. > :19:14.why the opposition will say, we will not support it. It was not that but
:19:15. > :19:20.there is an element, I am glad we have Prime Minister with guts but at
:19:21. > :19:24.the same time, our teachers in schools have yet again just gone
:19:25. > :19:28.through the most amazing amount of change, they are exhausted. We
:19:29. > :19:33.cannot recruit, we do not have enough teachers, we are losing them
:19:34. > :19:37.quickly. I've be a more change will put more pressure on the system and
:19:38. > :19:40.I would rather see the effort and energy and money put into getting
:19:41. > :19:45.the fair funding great because yet again that has been shelved and
:19:46. > :19:48.should have come first. As I say, you should not overestimate just how
:19:49. > :19:52.many schools will go down the grammar schools but it gives an
:19:53. > :19:57.option for parents. This will take time, but we need to get our best
:19:58. > :20:02.selective education right. I am in favour of what has been proposed.
:20:03. > :20:06.This issue of mandate. It is a bit rich to see somebody like Nick Clegg
:20:07. > :20:10.going on about mandate. Who ever would have voted for the coalition?
:20:11. > :20:15.He had five years in office and too many of our problems economic league
:20:16. > :20:23.were parked and not solved by the coalition. -- economically. You do
:20:24. > :20:28.not think that is a problem at all? I really do not. Do you think it
:20:29. > :20:34.will get through? Will the House of Lords close this down? They will use
:20:35. > :20:39.the argument. They can start down that route. I think it would be very
:20:40. > :20:43.foolish of them to do that. It is right to examine in full what is
:20:44. > :20:47.being proposed. The fact we are looking at Independent and faith
:20:48. > :20:53.schools and technical schools, it will be as a package and it is
:20:54. > :20:56.something that is part of a heartfelt feeling from Theresa May
:20:57. > :20:59.that she is passionate about having a great meritocracy not just for
:21:00. > :21:04.this generation but for many years to come. Thank you very much.
:21:05. > :21:05.Now, let's talk about Hilary Clinton.
:21:06. > :21:07.The Democratic Presidential Candidate has cancelled
:21:08. > :21:09.a campaign trip to California, after her doctor announced that she
:21:10. > :21:19.At an event in New York yesterday, Mrs Clinton left early
:21:20. > :21:21.and was filmed collapsing as she was about to
:21:22. > :21:24.She's been told to rest and is being treated
:21:25. > :21:36.You can see footage taken as Mrs Clinton was leaving a memorial event
:21:37. > :21:40.yesterday in New York, she fell ill during the event. You can see her
:21:41. > :21:46.here being helped and she stumbles at that point and has security
:21:47. > :21:51.staff, apparently she fainted where she fell, and security staff has to
:21:52. > :21:55.help her into the vehicle. Her team said she overheated and she was
:21:56. > :21:59.feeling much better soon after. But how big an issue could this be for
:22:00. > :22:02.Hillary's campaign? Andrews, from Republicans Overseas,
:22:03. > :22:11.and journalist Michael Goldfarb. Is it going to be very damaging when
:22:12. > :22:15.the Americans are obsessed with the health of presidents and nominees?
:22:16. > :22:20.Not for very long unless something is going on there. Sometimes a cigar
:22:21. > :22:26.is just a cigar and walking pneumonia is just walking pneumonia.
:22:27. > :22:29.This comes after a prolonged period of attack by Trump surrogates as he
:22:30. > :22:33.tries to call himself back out of the pit he dug for himself out of
:22:34. > :22:40.his own convention by saying Hillary is hiding a health secret. And then
:22:41. > :22:45.we have just seen the pictures. The seed is planted. Will people pay
:22:46. > :22:49.attention? I don't know. The way this campaign is going, the subject
:22:50. > :22:54.changes every couple of days and Donald Trump is perfectly capable of
:22:55. > :22:57.changing it himself by saying something absolutely outrageous.
:22:58. > :23:04.What is interesting, that report staff holding back his hands from
:23:05. > :23:07.hitting the keyboard to write something totally inappropriate. I
:23:08. > :23:16.believe that, it is amazing to see him so quiet! But white, but wise.
:23:17. > :23:20.Especially after yesterday her media time -- her media team said she was
:23:21. > :23:26.feeling better and a couple of hours later, she has walking pneumonia. It
:23:27. > :23:29.fitted the rhetoric she is not transparent and not being honest and
:23:30. > :23:33.it follows the e-mail scandals and her connections between the
:23:34. > :23:37.foundation and the State Department. Once again voters reminded Clinton
:23:38. > :23:43.is not telling the truth. Is that not a media narrative she is not
:23:44. > :23:46.transparent about her health, or in general? It is a Hillary Clinton
:23:47. > :23:50.narrative from her e-mails to the front pages of papers and from her
:23:51. > :23:55.media team that is not the full truth. Once again, voters reminded
:23:56. > :23:59.they are not hearing the full story. Without making it partisan,
:24:00. > :24:04.transparency cuts both. I'd do buy into the fact this is a media
:24:05. > :24:09.narrative. And she plays the game. If you ask Donald Trump, show your
:24:10. > :24:12.tax returns as every presidential candidate for decades has done and
:24:13. > :24:16.he deflects it with an outrageous comment. The problem with Hillary
:24:17. > :24:20.Linton goes back to the beginning of her being a public figure 25 years
:24:21. > :24:26.ago when Bill Clinton was running for President -- Clinton. In some
:24:27. > :24:31.ways, the Queen always says, never complain, never explain. She has got
:24:32. > :24:36.the second half of that phrase, she never explains, she is cornered. She
:24:37. > :24:42.does not want to. Will she be forced to change tactics? If this is on the
:24:43. > :24:47.news cycle rightly or wrongly every day until the debates or until they
:24:48. > :24:51.can comfortably say, her team, she is over it, that is going to remain
:24:52. > :24:57.in the minds of voters. It probably will, but then again, I come back to
:24:58. > :25:04.the point about Donald Trump and his tax returns. People want to see it
:25:05. > :25:06.and it is important because... But why should that openness and
:25:07. > :25:12.transparency not be foisted upon Donald Trump in the same way? It
:25:13. > :25:15.should be but none of us could say the media in America and
:25:16. > :25:19.international media have not probed into Donald Trump, he has been the
:25:20. > :25:22.topic of almost every conversation and it has not been flattering.
:25:23. > :25:27.People do want to see his records and they showed, but they literally
:25:28. > :25:30.saw on video over and over Clinton struggling to get into that car and
:25:31. > :25:34.the image will play with voters rightly or wrongly and it will be
:25:35. > :25:38.politically damaging. What was your reaction when you saw the footage?
:25:39. > :25:43.When I was campaigning, I got a really sore throat and I felt
:25:44. > :25:48.rubbish because I was tired. So you think this is a mountain out of a
:25:49. > :25:52.mole hill? To be fair, I am not American and I do not understand the
:25:53. > :25:56.American psyche and how they might interpret it but in this country, we
:25:57. > :26:00.might think, they are working hard, they are exhausted, that might be a
:26:01. > :26:05.good thing. I am safe to say you are not 69, she is a bit older and
:26:06. > :26:14.running for the top job. Should more scrutiny not be placed on whether
:26:15. > :26:17.she is up to it physically? Not really, the woman is just exhausted,
:26:18. > :26:20.that simple. What did you think? Being 60, I kind of know that you
:26:21. > :26:28.get a bit more exhausted. But I was thinking, look at the post-World War
:26:29. > :26:37.II figures, Churchill, the goal, they were well beyond 69. -- General
:26:38. > :26:42.De Gaulle. But she has been working extremely hard and I could not keep
:26:43. > :26:46.up that pace. She was in the air for the five-year she was Secretary of
:26:47. > :26:54.State. In the air hovering over us. She is obviously a beast for work.
:26:55. > :27:00.And my guess is that having stored in heavy woollen suits in the middle
:27:01. > :27:04.of September in a synagogue in New York as a boy and wishing I could go
:27:05. > :27:11.to sleep, she is in a very heavy suit, in a warm morning on a 9-11
:27:12. > :27:16.memorial and already under the weather, trust me, it could go the
:27:17. > :27:19.wrong way very quickly. This is an e-mail from the Trump team, Donald
:27:20. > :27:23.Trump says he hopes she gets well soon and gets back on the Trail. He
:27:24. > :27:26.does not think they will replace her with somebody else, he has had a
:27:27. > :27:32.physical and will release his details soon but he does think it is
:27:33. > :27:36.an issue. Surprisingly! The biggest problem Hillary has is he has said
:27:37. > :27:44.for a long time her health issues are worse than what we saw and this
:27:45. > :27:46.feeds into this, whether it is true or not, that the establishment is
:27:47. > :27:49.protecting Hillary Clinton. I wish her well, it sounds like she was
:27:50. > :27:53.overheated and she has pneumonia and that is terrible, I am sure she will
:27:54. > :27:56.recover. The biggest issue is why the American people, after seeing
:27:57. > :27:59.that footage, did not hear immediately about the root cause of
:28:00. > :28:03.the problem and it reiterates they are not being told the full truth.
:28:04. > :28:08.That is not about her health but the narrative around it. In two weeks,
:28:09. > :28:13.it is the debates, will that be the focus and this will be put behind
:28:14. > :28:17.them? If Donald Trump has not said something in the last five days to
:28:18. > :28:20.change the conversation. In two weeks, that will be the moment.
:28:21. > :28:25.Because there will be side-by-side. It Donald Trump appears in a certain
:28:26. > :28:30.way presidential, that will be but a goal for him. Everybody knows she
:28:31. > :28:34.has the competence to do the job but the question is... Some of us
:28:35. > :28:39.seriously doubt that, actually! Very briefly, what happens if she does
:28:40. > :28:43.drop out and is not able to continue, there is no protocol? No,
:28:44. > :28:47.we had the same conversation three weeks ago about Donald Trump when he
:28:48. > :28:51.was cratering in the polls. I don't know what happens and it is not
:28:52. > :28:55.worth speculating on because it is not going to happen. Both of you,
:28:56. > :28:59.thank you. Only a more weeks of this!
:29:00. > :29:01.Now let's look at what else is coming up in
:29:02. > :29:04.As we've been hearing, this afternoon, Education Secretary
:29:05. > :29:06.Justine Greening will make a statement setting out
:29:07. > :29:08.the Government's proposals on grammar schools in Parliament.
:29:09. > :29:11.Tomorrow sees the Second Reading of the Digital Economy Bill,
:29:12. > :29:13.the first major outing for the new Culture
:29:14. > :29:16.Wednesday will see Theresa May debating with Jeremy Corbyn
:29:17. > :29:18.at Prime Minister's Questions, in their weekly head-to-head.
:29:19. > :29:20.On Thursday, the Bank of England will announce its latest
:29:21. > :29:26.The Bank's Monetary Policy Committee cut rates to a historic low of 0.25%
:29:27. > :29:33.And on Friday, the new leader of UKIP will be announced
:29:34. > :29:35.at the party's conference in Bournemouth.
:29:36. > :29:37.The bookies' favourite is UKIP's Deputy Chair,
:29:38. > :29:43.We're joined now from College Green by Laura Hughes,
:29:44. > :29:45.from the Daily Telegraph, and George Eaton, the Political
:29:46. > :30:00.Laura, what do you think the motivation is for Theresa May
:30:01. > :30:04.pressing ahead with grammar schools? We have a party conference
:30:05. > :30:07.approaching and it is a clever move, it is incredibly popular amongst
:30:08. > :30:11.grassroots. She is making a clear break from David Cameron, under whom
:30:12. > :30:15.they felt a little bit unloved. We still have questions about Brexit,
:30:16. > :30:19.people are asking what it means in terms of access to the single
:30:20. > :30:24.market. It is something grassroots can unite around. It is pretty
:30:25. > :30:29.popular amongst most Tory MPs. A few are unhappy, but it is quite clever
:30:30. > :30:32.in the run-up to conference season. Listening to Laura saying it is
:30:33. > :30:39.going to be popular with grassroots, can she deliver it through the
:30:40. > :30:42.system, parliamentary system? In the Commons, it will be quite tight
:30:43. > :30:47.because she has a working majority of just 16. Nicky Morgan has already
:30:48. > :30:50.come out against the proposals. The Conservative chair of the Education
:30:51. > :30:55.Select Committee sounded quite sceptical. She should be reassured
:30:56. > :31:00.that Michael Gove has signalled he will not oppose the move. He could
:31:01. > :31:03.have spearheaded a revolt. The real problem is potentially the Lords,
:31:04. > :31:08.where the Conservatives have no majority. The Lords, traditionally,
:31:09. > :31:13.respects items that were included in manifestos, but the Conservative
:31:14. > :31:16.manifesto in 2015 made no mention of new grammar schools. This is why
:31:17. > :31:20.Theresa May is advancing quite cautiously on this. They have gone
:31:21. > :31:25.for a Green paper first, quite a contrast with 9010, when Michael
:31:26. > :31:31.Gove ramrod had the academies act through Parliament.
:31:32. > :31:38.The strikes are still planned to go ahead in October, the junior
:31:39. > :31:43.doctors, is this something Theresa May is just going to let Jeremy Hunt
:31:44. > :31:49.continue with, the tact he has taken up until now? She was very quick to
:31:50. > :31:52.come out and defend Jeremy Hunt, she accused junior doctors and the BMA
:31:53. > :32:00.of playing politics. She was quite harsh, quite immediately. Theresa
:32:01. > :32:03.May totals about the social reform agenda. A lot of union members might
:32:04. > :32:07.be interested in what she has to say. If she is clever, she will try
:32:08. > :32:12.to appeal to them. They are really worried about Brexit and that is
:32:13. > :32:16.something they can talk about. David Cameron, during the referendum
:32:17. > :32:20.campaign, reached out and spoke with union leaders, pretty unprecedented,
:32:21. > :32:25.and said, right, we will relax a few bits you are worried about if you
:32:26. > :32:28.get a bit of money towards the EU referendum campaign. I think it
:32:29. > :32:32.proves that Tory leaders can work with union leaders. There are union
:32:33. > :32:38.leaders that I worried about Jeremy Corbyn, worried about his policy on
:32:39. > :32:41.Trident. Theresa May would be, it would be inherent rests to show she
:32:42. > :32:47.was taking a different direction from the previous government. Is
:32:48. > :32:53.this an opportunity, in the week of the TUC, to try to build bridges
:32:54. > :32:56.with unions, including the BMA? Absolutely, it is something David
:32:57. > :33:00.Cameron made an attempt to do at the start of his leadership. She made
:33:01. > :33:03.proposals that are quite union friendly, such as employee
:33:04. > :33:08.representation on company boards, more shareholder control of
:33:09. > :33:12.executive pay. With the NHS, the big question, as it often is for
:33:13. > :33:15.governments, is where is the extra money coming from? The service is
:33:16. > :33:19.making it clear it need significantly more money, just to
:33:20. > :33:24.maintain services at the level that the public expect, let alone moving
:33:25. > :33:28.towards a new seven-day service. That is something the Chancellor,
:33:29. > :33:30.Philip Hammond, will have to address in the Autumn Statement, which we
:33:31. > :33:35.now know will be at the end of November. Briefly, from both of you,
:33:36. > :33:38.it is a year since Jeremy Corbyn became leader and the poll ratings
:33:39. > :33:43.are pretty disastrous. What do you think in terms of looking at? This
:33:44. > :33:47.is a one-year anniversary for Jeremy Corbyn, and he is not popular, 11
:33:48. > :33:49.points behind the Conservatives, the worst result for a Labour Leader a
:33:50. > :34:10.year after they were elected. But we were
:34:11. > :34:13.looking at the leadership election and I think is going to win that,
:34:14. > :34:15.really popular amongst the grassroots of the Labour Party and,
:34:16. > :34:18.for him, right now, that is what matters. Absolutely, there was one
:34:19. > :34:20.election he was focused on, the Labour leadership election. The
:34:21. > :34:23.indicators are that he will win by as much as he did last time, perhaps
:34:24. > :34:25.even a bigger margin. A lot of Labour members do not blame Jeremy
:34:26. > :34:28.Corbyn for his popularity, they blame the MPs that launched a coup
:34:29. > :34:31.against him, who they now want to unite behind, the leader.
:34:32. > :34:34.Yes, that's right, the political conference season.
:34:35. > :34:39.The Trade Union Congress getting underway in Brighton today.
:34:40. > :34:41.TUC General Secretary Frances O'Grady has been addressing
:34:42. > :34:43.delegates at the conference this morning, calling
:34:44. > :34:45.on the new Prime Minister, Theresa May, to ensure rights
:34:46. > :34:47.for workers are protected in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations.
:34:48. > :34:57.We can speak to Frances O'Grady now from the conference.
:34:58. > :35:06.Hello. Hello. You talked about sports direct and zero hour
:35:07. > :35:11.contracts in your speech this morning. You also pledged that trade
:35:12. > :35:16.unions will shine a light on shady businesses that treat workers like
:35:17. > :35:19.animals. Were you thinking of any particular? Well, I certainly was. I
:35:20. > :35:25.think the important thing to know is that sports director is not the only
:35:26. > :35:28.one. We have seen a pretty good victory for Unite, the union
:35:29. > :35:34.organising their and the combined union power in that shareholder
:35:35. > :35:37.meeting. But it is not just about sports direct. We know that zero
:35:38. > :35:44.hours has spread all over the country. It has risen by a fifth.
:35:45. > :35:50.Nearly 1 million workers on contracts now. It goes beyond zero
:35:51. > :35:58.hour contracts. We have too many employers using sham
:35:59. > :36:02.self-employment, as we have seen at Uber and Hermes, where it is just a
:36:03. > :36:06.way of getting around having to give workers' rights like respite and
:36:07. > :36:10.sick pay that they deserve. I have given notice to those companies that
:36:11. > :36:22.do treat workers badly that we're not going to stop at Sports Direct.
:36:23. > :36:28.The new Prime Minister has proposed putting workers on boards. Do you
:36:29. > :36:30.see Theresa May as an ally in your campaign for better rights for
:36:31. > :36:35.workers? I was very clear today that if Theresa May wants to have genuine
:36:36. > :36:38.elections so that we see workers on boards, then we will support that
:36:39. > :36:43.because it is something that the TUC and unions have long campaigned for.
:36:44. > :36:47.That is something the public want. We want to see some common sense and
:36:48. > :36:52.reality in the boardroom, and maybe tackle some of that top pay problem
:36:53. > :36:55.as well. What about comments by Liam Fox, the international trade
:36:56. > :37:02.Secretary, reporting to say that too many British businesses are fat and
:37:03. > :37:05.lazy. Do you agree with him? I guess I think he is not a great sales wrap
:37:06. > :37:10.for Britain if he is going around the world saying that at a time when
:37:11. > :37:14.he is supposed to be exploring trade deals. I think we need to be serious
:37:15. > :37:19.about this. Is he right? Now that the election, the referendum
:37:20. > :37:22.campaign is over, I think everybody needs to come down off their
:37:23. > :37:26.soapbox, roll up their sleeves and try to get the best deal for
:37:27. > :37:31.Britain. The best deal for British workers. Let's be clear, working
:37:32. > :37:37.people still have not recovered from the financial crash. Brexit
:37:38. > :37:40.introduces uncertainty, we want the Government to make sure that unions
:37:41. > :37:45.are at the table alongside business to get workers and Britain the best
:37:46. > :37:53.deal we can. Let's talk about Brexit and a deal that is going to be done
:37:54. > :37:58.by the Government. You believe it would be best for the economy if we
:37:59. > :38:02.remain members of the single market. Do you think the benefits of single
:38:03. > :38:05.market membership are worth it if it also means the country has to
:38:06. > :38:10.sacrifice of the things you are campaigning for, like state aid for
:38:11. > :38:16.industries, like the steel industry, or rail nationalisation? I think we
:38:17. > :38:19.are all keen on bringing the railways back into public control.
:38:20. > :38:24.But you wouldn't be able to as a member of the single market. You
:38:25. > :38:27.would not be able to, that would be in breach of EU competition laws if
:38:28. > :38:33.we were members of the single market. We would then be put aside?
:38:34. > :38:37.I'm afraid that it EU competition laws were often used as a very
:38:38. > :38:42.convenient excuse by Westminster governments to do things they didn't
:38:43. > :38:46.want to do anyway. We have often heard Brussels blamed, for example,
:38:47. > :38:50.about Chinese steel, when in fact it was the UK Government that was
:38:51. > :38:55.blocking the tariffs that we wanted to see to stop the dumping of cheap
:38:56. > :39:01.Chinese steel. What about state aid? If you are not allowed to give state
:39:02. > :39:04.money to prop up industries like steel, which he would not be able to
:39:05. > :39:08.under EU laws as they stand, you would be prevented from doing some
:39:09. > :39:13.of the things you want? I think you only have to look at Germany, France
:39:14. > :39:18.and Italy to see that state money does go to support industries when
:39:19. > :39:23.governments have the will to do it. We were looking for the same from
:39:24. > :39:27.Westminster. I think the serious point here is that we know a lot of
:39:28. > :39:33.good jobs, people's rights depend on that good relationship with the EU.
:39:34. > :39:37.A lot of exports go to the EU, in manufacturing. We need to get all of
:39:38. > :39:42.this, get a bit sensible about how we get a fair deal. In my experience
:39:43. > :39:47.as a negotiator, that requires some give and take from both sides. Thank
:39:48. > :39:54.you very much. Briefly, Gisela Stuart Cullen she wants a fair deal,
:39:55. > :40:00.but wants to remain, a member of the single market? This is an example,
:40:01. > :40:04.the organisation like Change Britain, we can bring together the
:40:05. > :40:07.points, the fear of what the trade-offs are, and break the link
:40:08. > :40:12.that was at the core of the Leave the vote. He break the link between
:40:13. > :40:13.trade and people. It's a year to the day
:40:14. > :40:17.since Jeremy Corbyn was elected Doesn't time fly when
:40:18. > :40:20.you're having fun? It's fair to say he's had
:40:21. > :40:22.an eventful 12 months. Here's our Adam, indulging
:40:23. > :40:25.in a spot of nostagligia. MUSIC: "Lust for Life"
:40:26. > :40:29.by Iggy Pop. We need to be investing in skills,
:40:30. > :40:41.investing in our young people. So, I sent out an e-mail
:40:42. > :40:54.to thousands of people and asked them what questions they would
:40:55. > :40:57.like to put to the Prime Minister. Choose victory in numerous
:40:58. > :40:59.by-elections, mayoral and council elections,
:41:00. > :41:00.which you celebrate We were getting predictions
:41:01. > :41:05.that Labour was going To assist Comrade Osborne
:41:06. > :41:15.in his dealings with his new-found comrades, I have brought him along
:41:16. > :41:18.Mao's Little Red Book. I feel I served in
:41:19. > :41:21.the best way I can. Thank you to UB40 for
:41:22. > :41:30.this incredible endorsement. However busy I am, my
:41:31. > :41:35.allotment is tended. Had them the other night,
:41:36. > :41:43.a lovely bean soup. Just be careful when
:41:44. > :42:03.you go trainspotting. Well, joining us to reflect
:42:04. > :42:07.on Jeremy Corbyn's first year is Sam Tarry, director
:42:08. > :42:09.of his leadership campaign, and Frances O'Grady is still
:42:10. > :42:19.with us from Brighton. What would you say is his biggest
:42:20. > :42:22.achievement? Some of the U-turns he has forced out of the government,
:42:23. > :42:28.personal independence payments, Iain Duncan Smith, the fact he was not
:42:29. > :42:33.able to remove the prerequisite of having income as a definition of
:42:34. > :42:38.poverty was incredibly important. You think has presided over a period
:42:39. > :42:42.where Labour has formed a justifiably strong opposition? It
:42:43. > :42:45.can obviously be improved, but quite clearly, for me, there has been
:42:46. > :42:54.dramatic change in British politics and he is at the head of that. Would
:42:55. > :42:57.you agree, Gisela? Where we have taken our eye off the ball is the
:42:58. > :43:01.clear determination that whatever your values, unless you are
:43:02. > :43:05.transforming a Government, you cannot translate it into practice.
:43:06. > :43:08.That will be the challenge between MPs and members. Don't blame each
:43:09. > :43:12.other, say we have a collective aim and to reflect our values we have to
:43:13. > :43:17.do more than just that at Westminster. I agree, I can't wait
:43:18. > :43:26.to get those MPs, having gone back to their constituencies, having seen
:43:27. > :43:28.sense, the strength of feeling amongst the membership, to come back
:43:29. > :43:30.on board and take the opposition to the Government. The constituents
:43:31. > :43:33.deserve it more than anything else. Do think it was Labour MPs and
:43:34. > :43:40.Jeremy Corbyn that got the U-turns, or was it down to Tory MPs? I am not
:43:41. > :43:46.a natural bloater, I did find myself going PIP, tax credits, I think I
:43:47. > :43:50.was involved in that. I like him, as a human being, he is showing a
:43:51. > :43:53.different way to behave. When I became into politics, I was
:43:54. > :43:57.determined not to behave in the old-fashioned ways, he said, she
:43:58. > :44:05.said, I am not interested in that. But he has to be competent. He is
:44:06. > :44:09.not leading his party and he needs to do that. Voters matter, not just
:44:10. > :44:18.MPs and members. Frances O'Grady said that. Without them, you are
:44:19. > :44:24.powerless. That is backed up by the polls, they are dramatic in terms of
:44:25. > :44:29.support for Labour. They are 11 points behind conservatives. In
:44:30. > :44:34.terms of favourability, he is 64 points behind Theresa May. They are
:44:35. > :44:39.dreadful. The party had not been tearing itself apart, they would be
:44:40. > :44:43.in a better position. You think is favourability would be better?
:44:44. > :44:48.Jeremy was doing much better before the coup, nobody wants to vote for a
:44:49. > :44:52.party where the majority of MPs or attacking the leader on a nonstop
:44:53. > :44:56.basis. We want to put in place a programme, when Jeremy wins next
:44:57. > :45:01.week, to ensure that we go into Government and we want the MPs back
:45:02. > :45:05.on board to do that. Is it in fighting, or Jeremy Corbyn? The
:45:06. > :45:09.infighting is a reflection that we have not got enough of a voice for
:45:10. > :45:14.those people who have got the right to expect we represent them and
:45:15. > :45:18.stand for them. You're quite right, after the leadership election, we
:45:19. > :45:22.need to come together. Not talk to each other all the time, the Pope to
:45:23. > :45:30.those that want to vote for us. That has to be a effort. -- it has to be
:45:31. > :45:34.a joint effort. My politics are not where Jeremy is, Owen Smith promises
:45:35. > :45:36.a second referendum and I think at that stage I look at the ballot
:45:37. > :45:46.paper and scratch my head. You do not think Jeremy can lead, it
:45:47. > :45:50.and Owen Smith, you disagree with him completely over Europe so
:45:51. > :45:54.somewhere, you have to make a decision. Fortunately on this
:45:55. > :45:58.occasion, my vote is only one among millions and whatever the decision
:45:59. > :46:03.is, I will work with whoever gets elected. And what you say to MPs his
:46:04. > :46:09.have voted no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, should they do the same? Now
:46:10. > :46:14.that you have the second election, we need to work together. But that
:46:15. > :46:17.puts the onus on the leader to make sure they are followers. It is wrong
:46:18. > :46:22.to assume it is the responsibility of the followers to follow their
:46:23. > :46:26.leader, it is the leader's responsibility to reach out and make
:46:27. > :46:31.sure those people with them their followers. In trying gate, there was
:46:32. > :46:39.a row whether there were seats on the train Jeremy Corbyn was sitting
:46:40. > :46:45.on, was that a low point? I do not think so, he did well after that and
:46:46. > :46:48.during the full course of time, that probably will come out. What is more
:46:49. > :46:54.interesting is we are looking forward now to speaking to MPs and
:46:55. > :46:57.saying we have to make this work, we have to make this work, we know the
:46:58. > :47:02.constituents desperately want to make it work and now we need to look
:47:03. > :47:07.forward to what can be in the manifesto? And how on Earth do we
:47:08. > :47:11.use the 600,000 people and the fact the Labour Party has more money than
:47:12. > :47:14.ever before to fight a general election? That is what we are
:47:15. > :47:19.interested in. But it is not just about the members but the voters and
:47:20. > :47:24.the parliamentary party. Has Jeremy Corbyn really succeeded in reaching
:47:25. > :47:27.out to voters beyond the Labour Party membership? I think the
:47:28. > :47:31.message on the economy, his message of reaching out to communities, the
:47:32. > :47:36.communities I come from in East London that voted in large numbers
:47:37. > :47:39.of baulk Brexit, we need to win the next election and we are more
:47:40. > :47:44.prepared to listen to Jeremy. Why is it not translating in the polls, it
:47:45. > :47:49.is going the other way? We have an inward facing contest and we have
:47:50. > :47:53.not had chance to face outward. We are confident MPs will see sense and
:47:54. > :47:56.come back on board as take that message of economic renewal to
:47:57. > :48:01.communities who voted Brexit. In terms of the Shadow Cabinet
:48:02. > :48:04.elections, the proposal voted on by the Labour MPs, whether it goes
:48:05. > :48:08.ahead or not, would you like to see members electing people to the
:48:09. > :48:14.Shadow Cabinet? All you have then it is you have slates being wrong and
:48:15. > :48:20.you go back to the battles of the 1980s and the interest groups think
:48:21. > :48:24.it is it delegation. I was elected to exercise my judgment on behalf of
:48:25. > :48:28.my constituents and I have a responsibility to represent the
:48:29. > :48:32.entire constituency as a Labour MP with those values. The real
:48:33. > :48:37.difficulty is there is a perception there is a world inside the M25
:48:38. > :48:42.Circle and outside it and the challenge for the Labour Party is to
:48:43. > :48:46.reach out to the sections outside and that is something the leader has
:48:47. > :48:51.to take responsibility for. I am absolutely looking forward to doing
:48:52. > :48:55.that, I believe his policies and strategy can reach out to those
:48:56. > :48:58.communities beyond the M25, absolutely. Let's see! Thank you.
:48:59. > :49:00.Economic enrichment, vocational training,
:49:01. > :49:03.Professor Alison Wolf, who's also a cross-bencher peer,
:49:04. > :49:05.thinks that our universities have become money machines, offering
:49:06. > :49:19.It is an exciting time for many 18 and 19-year-olds.
:49:20. > :49:24.New friends, new studies, living away from home.
:49:25. > :49:27.They are also part of a mass enterprise.
:49:28. > :49:29.More teenagers than ever before will start degrees this autumn.
:49:30. > :49:36.Governments have expanded universities, year upon year,
:49:37. > :49:40.selling a dream - not of learning, but of wealth.
:49:41. > :49:44.That is what justifies the fees that students pay and the big loans
:49:45. > :49:49.The Government wants even more students.
:49:50. > :49:52.It thinks universities are engines of economic growth and so its new
:49:53. > :49:54.Higher Education Bill for England makes it easier
:49:55. > :50:02.Yet many graduates can't repay their loans, so that means
:50:03. > :50:12.Once, universities recruited small numbers of academic high-performers.
:50:13. > :50:19.Now, it's a competition to recruit students by the thousands.
:50:20. > :50:22.Huge lecture theatres like this one define modern universities.
:50:23. > :50:29.Yet degrees aren't magic wealth machines.
:50:30. > :50:35.A third of today's graduates are in non-graduate jobs
:50:36. > :50:39.and the graduates of some universities register no
:50:40. > :50:44.their average wages are exactly the same as those of people
:50:45. > :50:48.who did not go to university and who don't have student loans.
:50:49. > :50:50.English 18-year-olds basically have two choices -
:50:51. > :50:59.Other countries have technical tracks, shorter, cheaper
:51:00. > :51:16.And she joins us now, you are an economic structure, you biting the
:51:17. > :51:22.hand that feeds you? If I am, then hopefully, it is for a good reason.
:51:23. > :51:25.The reality is that for a lot of people, at university does pay and
:51:26. > :51:30.you learn a great deal. The problem we have in this country is we are
:51:31. > :51:33.giving 18-year-old is remarkably little choice. Essentially, they
:51:34. > :51:37.either have to go out into a harsh Labour market with more with more
:51:38. > :51:50.and more graduates competing or they have to get into this
:51:51. > :51:54.graduate Labour market and take on huge debts which we know many will
:51:55. > :51:57.never be able to repay. Do you agree, Heidi Allan, with the point
:51:58. > :52:00.in the film that if there is no wage premium for going to university,
:52:01. > :52:02.what is the point? It depends what profession and create you want to go
:52:03. > :52:05.into. Maybe earning is not what it is all about. When I went to
:52:06. > :52:08.university, I was the first of my family to go and that was the
:52:09. > :52:12.conversation you would have, anybody in your family on the university
:52:13. > :52:16.yet? And it swung the other way you are nobody if you did not go to
:52:17. > :52:21.university. We have been pushing it into degrees there is a worthless,
:52:22. > :52:25.at universities with not rigorous standards and they go out
:52:26. > :52:28.disappointed, and it has to change. Apprenticeships are part of that.
:52:29. > :52:33.You say it has to change and there was more change, it could change,
:52:34. > :52:38.but do you want to go back to the elite as time when very few clothes
:52:39. > :52:42.-- very few kids from from the middle class went to university? Not
:52:43. > :52:47.at all, I want a slot in the Private members Bill and I did not know what
:52:48. > :52:52.to do with it! I try to get a Private Members' Bill through about
:52:53. > :52:55.transparency on fees because it is a consumer think, you take on debt and
:52:56. > :52:59.you want to know what to get from your money. Let's help youngsters
:53:00. > :53:04.how many lectures, job prospects, what do I earn? Then people might
:53:05. > :53:08.choose a different path. Was it wrong for Labour, especially under
:53:09. > :53:17.Tony Blair, Gisela Stuart, to expand university education for everybody
:53:18. > :53:20.in the way they wanted a quota of 50% or whatever you could go to go?
:53:21. > :53:23.You will find the words 50% never crossed my lips for a very good
:53:24. > :53:28.reason. Alison is one of my heroes. That report on apprenticeships was
:53:29. > :53:31.so significant. You have a dual system, you have genuine
:53:32. > :53:35.alternatives. It is not just big employers are employing the
:53:36. > :53:41.workforce which anybody would do, you have a way to go at 18. That is
:53:42. > :53:46.the bullet we still have not bitten. I have brilliant universities on my
:53:47. > :53:50.patch, Birmingham University, but in some cities, we use universities
:53:51. > :53:56.like regeneration for the city. We have lost that focus of the world of
:53:57. > :53:59.work and education. If we take on bird -- if we take on board the idea
:54:00. > :54:04.to produce more apprenticeships to offer something else to
:54:05. > :54:07.18-year-olds, you have to say, you are not bright enough to go to
:54:08. > :54:14.university, and they still want to go. You do not have to say that, you
:54:15. > :54:17.say that you have an old -- and entitlement to a certain amount of
:54:18. > :54:21.higher education and training, it is up to you what you take and when you
:54:22. > :54:25.take it. All we offer now is the opportunity to go the ever expanding
:54:26. > :54:29.universities to take a three-year degree and more and more debt. You
:54:30. > :54:34.need is to open it up and followed pretty much every other European
:54:35. > :54:39.country in providing high prestige, technical routes leading out at 18
:54:40. > :54:44.which we have consistently failed to do. What is the psychological
:54:45. > :54:47.barrier to it? I think part of the problem is we destroyed
:54:48. > :54:52.apprenticeships in this country in the 1970s and 1980s and we have
:54:53. > :54:56.never really taken hold of this fact and made a serious efforts to put it
:54:57. > :55:02.right. Peace -- people constantly say they believe in apprenticeships
:55:03. > :55:07.and in purported vocational education and they spend more and
:55:08. > :55:10.more money expanding more and more universities -- and in vocational.
:55:11. > :55:14.And we are about to do it again. It looks as though the cost will go
:55:15. > :55:17.back to the taxpayer are people going to university and even if they
:55:18. > :55:22.do not earn more and do not always get a job, they cannot pay back the
:55:23. > :55:25.loans and taxpayers will fund university education. That is the
:55:26. > :55:30.real risk if we pushed to many in the University when it is not right.
:55:31. > :55:34.Some of this is legacy and before we have had a chance to make reforms,
:55:35. > :55:39.we have gone back to students who have educated themselves and that is
:55:40. > :55:43.not a lot we can do other than help them find work that pays well. We
:55:44. > :55:47.have to make apprenticeships sexy again. My father was so proud to be
:55:48. > :55:52.an apprentice, it was great, that is what you did, and that has become
:55:53. > :55:55.the poor relation. That is starting to change. Degree level
:55:56. > :55:58.apprenticeships, people feel they can access prestige to a different
:55:59. > :56:01.vocational way. Thank you very much. There's just time before we go
:56:02. > :56:04.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, who accused
:56:05. > :56:20.Sky's Dermot Murnaghan of I am afraid it is MLE. In her
:56:21. > :56:21.defence, I would not have known the Korean President either! -- Emily
:56:22. > :56:23.Thornberry. This is the exchange. I just wonder, I mean,
:56:24. > :56:26.have you called the French Foreign No, but they were in the process
:56:27. > :56:30.of arranging for me to go Don't start pub-quizzing me,
:56:31. > :56:34.Dermot. Well, he's the French Foreign
:56:35. > :56:38.Minister, do you know his name? No, and I'm not going to start
:56:39. > :56:41.answering your questions on this. What really...upsets me
:56:42. > :56:47.about your attitude to me is that I don't remember you doing it
:56:48. > :56:51.with anybody else, you know. And I certainly think that
:56:52. > :56:56.sometimes, when it comes to sexism, some Sky presenters need to look
:56:57. > :56:59.at themselves too. It really upsets me that every time
:57:00. > :57:03.I come on here, you do Because you do not do it
:57:04. > :57:07.with anybody else and I do think It's not, because you are
:57:08. > :57:11.the Shadow Foreign Secretary. And this was about the French
:57:12. > :57:19.Foreign Minister, Jean-Marc Ayrault. We have not got time for a quiz, you
:57:20. > :57:22.will be pleased to know, was sexist? It was good banter but you should
:57:23. > :57:27.never attacked the presenter. Whatever you tell me, I say yes! I
:57:28. > :57:33.am delighted to hear that! I want that in writing and on the wall! Was
:57:34. > :57:37.it sexist? Absolutely not, if you do not know the answer, you have been
:57:38. > :57:39.caught out, except it and wash. Almost time to ask you, but I will
:57:40. > :57:43.not! -- just accept it and blush. The One O'Clock News is starting
:57:44. > :57:53.over on BBC One now. I am delighted I have not been
:57:54. > :57:53.accused of being sexist and I would never be!
:57:54. > :57:57.I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big
:57:58. > :58:20.And the former Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan.
:58:21. > :58:24.then the Court of Appeal aren't going to change their decision.