:00:37. > :00:38.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:40.She's certainly given it plenty of thought.
:00:41. > :00:43.Now Theresa May's decided to give the green light
:00:44. > :00:47.to the first new UK nuclear plant for 20 years.
:00:48. > :00:50.After much deliberation, the government says the French
:00:51. > :00:53.and the Chinese will build the Hinckley Point power station.
:00:54. > :00:58.Although ministers say they've imposed tough new conditions.
:00:59. > :01:01.Labour's leadership contest enters the final lap.
:01:02. > :01:05.We'll be asking how Owen Smith measured up against Jeremy Corbyn
:01:06. > :01:11.Ukip's got its own problems with party unity.
:01:12. > :01:14.We've been to Wales to see if a new leader can build
:01:15. > :01:19.And it's not exactly Oxford v Cambridge,
:01:20. > :01:23.but we've been to see MPs and peers putting their oars in
:01:24. > :01:32.for their very own boat race on the Thames.
:01:33. > :01:36.And with us for the whole of the programme today
:01:37. > :01:41.She was a minister under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown,
:01:42. > :01:44.but is probably best known for grilling public figures
:01:45. > :01:48.as head of a high profile Commons Committee.
:01:49. > :01:50.One anonymous member of her committee once compared her
:01:51. > :01:55.Which, believe it or not, was meant to be a compliment... of sorts.
:01:56. > :01:59.Let's begin today with the government's decision
:02:00. > :02:02.to go ahead with the construction of a nuclear power station
:02:03. > :02:08.The ?18 billion project, which is being financed by the French
:02:09. > :02:12.and the Chinese, was put on hold by Theresa May soon after she became
:02:13. > :02:15.Prime Minister amid reports that she had concerns
:02:16. > :02:20.about Chinese involvement in Britain's nuclear power industry.
:02:21. > :02:25.Although ministers say they will impose "significant new safeguards"
:02:26. > :02:33.Here's the Business Secretary Greg Clark speaking earlier.
:02:34. > :02:35.It's an important upgrade of our energy supplies
:02:36. > :02:39.for the next six years, contributing 7% of clean,
:02:40. > :02:47.reliable energy and a major step forward for our new
:02:48. > :02:50.nuclear power programme and an ?18 billion investment in the economy,
:02:51. > :02:57.So, the government's made its mind up.
:02:58. > :03:00.What, if anything, has changed since the decision was put on hold?
:03:01. > :03:06.Let's talk to our correspondent Ben Wright.
:03:07. > :03:13.Has anything changed? We've heard them talking about tough new
:03:14. > :03:18.safeguards. Do we know what they might be? It doesn't seem as if a
:03:19. > :03:22.great deal's changed so far. In terms of the structure of this deal.
:03:23. > :03:26.The Chinese involvement, the price that will be paid for electricity.
:03:27. > :03:30.There is this change around the question of the UK having a special
:03:31. > :03:34.share option in the future that would enable them to block the sale
:03:35. > :03:39.of a stake that other companies like EDF have in future infrastructure
:03:40. > :03:42.projects like this. Number Ten say this is quite a big change in
:03:43. > :03:49.securing Britain's national security going forward. But I think there
:03:50. > :03:55.will be many who will ask after this remarkably, after this big surprise
:03:56. > :03:59.in this huge deal, was it worth it or is this a lot of political
:04:00. > :04:02.theatre to show Theresa May is pressing the reset button, really?
:04:03. > :04:08.There will be some who are asking that questions today. It will go aid
:04:09. > :04:13.head. There's something about the French having to rubber-stamp it or
:04:14. > :04:19.EDF having to stamp it? It will go ahead? It will. Theresa May spoke to
:04:20. > :04:24.President Hollande about this just before the deal was announced once
:04:25. > :04:29.again. The beep mats between China and the UK have -- diplomats between
:04:30. > :04:34.China and the UK have talked about it. Labour have asked for guarantees
:04:35. > :04:41.that the Bradwell station that is now likely to be built, that
:04:42. > :04:45.controversial Chinese power plant, they're asking for guarantees that
:04:46. > :04:51.means Chinese workers won't couple to the UK to take care of that. Also
:04:52. > :04:54.the price being paid. This will go ahead despite this surprising
:04:55. > :04:56.two-month pause we've seen. Thank you.
:04:57. > :04:58.We're joined now by the former Energy Secretary Ed Davey.
:04:59. > :05:00.He was the coalition minister who struck the deal
:05:01. > :05:09.Welcome to the Daily Politics. We've had this pause. Do you think there's
:05:10. > :05:14.anything different in this deal from what you can tell? Eyed like to hear
:05:15. > :05:19.the details. This special share they're talking about to help on
:05:20. > :05:22.national security issues was something I proposed when we were in
:05:23. > :05:26.Government. The Liberal Democrats were arguing for it. Unfortunately
:05:27. > :05:31.George Osborne said he didn't want it and overruled us. So, I'm glad to
:05:32. > :05:35.see it. You're pleased? I think it's the sensible thing and why I
:05:36. > :05:39.proposed it a few years ago. How surprised were you about the pause?
:05:40. > :05:45.Quite surprised. I think they've managed to annoy the Chinese, the
:05:46. > :05:49.French, annoy other people investing. There thereby an extra
:05:50. > :05:55.political risk for people wanting to invest in the UK. It's not been
:05:56. > :06:00.Clifford and very well handled by Theresa May and her team. If it
:06:01. > :06:04.results in a project which will help us tackle climate change through low
:06:05. > :06:08.carbon and has this extra national security guarantee with a special
:06:09. > :06:14.share, it is a the right thing to do. You were the minister in
:06:15. > :06:20.coalition who wanted this deal. What about those saying the Hinkley Point
:06:21. > :06:26.should be abandoned? I'm not surprised. Tim far lop has always
:06:27. > :06:32.been sceptical about nuclear power. He's the leader. Is he wrong? I
:06:33. > :06:37.think I he is. If you're going to tackle climate change we need a lot
:06:38. > :06:43.of low carbon electricity from wind, sole auricular, tidal. I'm the
:06:44. > :06:47.British minister who commissioned another renewable power in history.
:06:48. > :06:51.I love renewables. I don't think they can do it alone. We need
:06:52. > :06:55.electricity for heating, transport and power. That's a lot of green
:06:56. > :07:01.electricity. Nuclear can help as part of a mix. Do you agree with
:07:02. > :07:07.that? We need nuclear as part of the mix. This is a Liberal Democrat who
:07:08. > :07:12.believes and loves renewables. Ed knows more than I am. I'm skeptical
:07:13. > :07:17.about this particular issuement we looked at it when I was chair of the
:07:18. > :07:20.Public Accounts Committee. It is hugely expensive. According to the
:07:21. > :07:26.recent national audit figures they are worse than the ones you showed
:07:27. > :07:30.at the top of the programme Jo. The subsidy to ED if will be ?30
:07:31. > :07:33.billion. The prize is double the price of electricity as it is now
:07:34. > :07:39.because the price of oil has gone down. The other thing is, this is a
:07:40. > :07:46.big, big project. The Finns are trying to build a similar
:07:47. > :07:50.capability. It was supposed to be completed from 2009. Now it will be
:07:51. > :07:56.finished in 2018. This tends to be in the van they project area. I
:07:57. > :07:59.would rather see smaller nuclear projects and other capabilities to
:08:00. > :08:05.make sure the lights are kept on. You would like to see it abandoned?
:08:06. > :08:09.I'm a sceptic. Not because imI'm anti-nuclear. He discussed the price
:08:10. > :08:17.at the time. It seems incredibly hi when you look at her forms of
:08:18. > :08:22.energy. ?92.50 at mega watts per hour. How can that be good for the
:08:23. > :08:27.taxpayer? I don't know. No-one can know if it's value for money. We
:08:28. > :08:35.only start paying for electricity if it's build. Let's say that's 2025
:08:36. > :08:40.and 9 contract last for 35 years, to know whether it is good for money,
:08:41. > :08:45.you have to know the price of electricity at that time and the
:08:46. > :08:49.price of carbon. Maybe Margaret and the National Audit Office know that,
:08:50. > :08:53.I don't know it. I'm afraid, I'm sorry, the reality is one has to
:08:54. > :08:58.take decisions in Government because it's not just price, you have to
:08:59. > :09:02.think about climate change which is criticalnd insecurity. The three
:09:03. > :09:10.together. We've had to invest in rue knewables at a higher price than
:09:11. > :09:14.this -- renewables. Ed, when you settle a price, you settle it
:09:15. > :09:19.against projections that your committeeists will undertake. Of
:09:20. > :09:22.course. But do you know what, the wholesale price of electricity has
:09:23. > :09:26.changed in two years by a lot. It changes all the time. The economists
:09:27. > :09:32.tell you that. Of course it changes all the time. Looking at today's
:09:33. > :09:40.figures, it looks acrazily expensive option. But that's the mistake
:09:41. > :09:45.you're making. Do you say you're making a stab in the dark? Can t
:09:46. > :09:50.could make other forms of energy cheaper? You're right, there are a
:09:51. > :09:54.lot of uncertainties in energy policy. Not just prices but what
:09:55. > :09:58.technology will do. You just don't know. Sometimes you have to come to
:09:59. > :10:03.a decision. Given this is the right for keeping the lights on, can plug
:10:04. > :10:09.their kettles on watch TV, given it is the right decision to tackle
:10:10. > :10:15.climate change, it is weird people say they know the price between 2025
:10:16. > :10:20.and 2060. It may not be the right decision to keep the lights on or
:10:21. > :10:27.given the speed at which technology's changes. What would you
:10:28. > :10:34.do? What I hear from experts, I accept Ed's more technical expertise
:10:35. > :10:37.than I have, what I heard is nuclear technology's changing much more
:10:38. > :10:41.quickly. There are smaller stations you can build much more rapidly.
:10:42. > :10:49.Make sure the lights are on better. What I also hear... That's not true.
:10:50. > :10:52.I also hear renewables are developing quickly, becoming cheaper
:10:53. > :10:57.more quickly. Solar is becoming more viable than it was a few years ago.
:10:58. > :11:03.Going for this big vanity project may not be the quality of what we
:11:04. > :11:09.want. I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said, Margaret. I'm a
:11:10. > :11:15.huge fan of solar, wind, tidal. Why not use those more? If we're going
:11:16. > :11:21.to tackle climate change seriously, the truth is, if you put all your
:11:22. > :11:25.eggs in one basket then you are putting a risk in the fight against
:11:26. > :11:30.climate change. I believe we should invest in all these low carbon
:11:31. > :11:35.technologies. The threat of climate Church of England is existential.
:11:36. > :11:40.When you last talked to me about this, it is a massive public
:11:41. > :11:44.subsidy? The policy of the coalition is nuclear would get no extra
:11:45. > :11:51.advantages over other forms of low carbon. It is a new subsidy? No
:11:52. > :11:55.extra support against others. If it is no subsidy against others... Hang
:11:56. > :11:59.on, Ed, it is an extra cost to the user. That's the point when we
:12:00. > :12:03.looked at all the investment, there's an 18% increase in the bills
:12:04. > :12:08.to the energy user in their bills from the capital investment. Do you
:12:09. > :12:16.believe the polluter should pay? Yeah. If you do you, and you look at
:12:17. > :12:20.the price of coal and gas, they should have a carbon #3r50is
:12:21. > :12:24.attached to them. Nobody when they discuss this does that. Coal and gas
:12:25. > :12:30.are causing climate change. They don't pay their true costs. If they
:12:31. > :12:32.did, renewables and nuclear would seem much more effective. I might
:12:33. > :12:36.agree with you on that one. Jeremy Corbyn was cheered
:12:37. > :12:39.by Labour MPs as he took on Theresa May over grammar schools
:12:40. > :12:41.at PMQs yesterday. But, in case you'd forgotten,
:12:42. > :12:44.he's still fighting a leadership a challenger backed by the majority
:12:45. > :12:49.of the parliamentary Labour Party. They held the final hustings of the
:12:50. > :12:52.contest last night on Sky News, and the exchanges
:12:53. > :12:53.were fairly tough. Do I regret the fact
:12:54. > :12:59.that some colleagues, including Owen, decided to resign
:13:00. > :13:02.from the Shadow Cabinet, hence we are having this
:13:03. > :13:03.leadership contest? I simply say to them -
:13:04. > :13:07.once this leadership contest is over, let's come together,
:13:08. > :13:09.let's come together and campaign How many seats do we need to win
:13:10. > :13:13.to beat the Tories? You know as well as I do
:13:14. > :13:17.we need to win at least 90? No, we don't, we need to win
:13:18. > :13:19.106, Jeremy. I worry that the leader
:13:20. > :13:23.of the Labour Party doesn't know how many seats we need
:13:24. > :13:27.to win from the Tories. I am just so angry at what the rest
:13:28. > :13:30.of the Labour Party We're joined now by the journalist
:13:31. > :13:46.Rachel Shabi, she's a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn, and Margaret Hodge
:13:47. > :13:59.is still with us, How did Owen Smith do? I have to be
:14:00. > :14:03.honest, I didn't watch the programme last night. Over All? I think he's
:14:04. > :14:07.doing extremely well. He's got better. The most important thing is
:14:08. > :14:12.there is a real distinction between the two of them. Owen Smith
:14:13. > :14:15.understands what the Labour Party was founded for, and that was to
:14:16. > :14:19.gain power and form Government. It was never founded as a pressure
:14:20. > :14:23.groupment there are plenty of other ways Rachel and others can spend
:14:24. > :14:27.their time in other avenues rather than being members of a pressure
:14:28. > :14:32.group. What do you say to that? How do you think Jeremy Corbyn did? I
:14:33. > :14:35.think both of the candidates in the leadership contest understand they
:14:36. > :14:38.want to be leaders of the party in order to get into power. Because
:14:39. > :14:43.what would be the point otherwise. People want to put their politics
:14:44. > :14:49.into power. Jeremy Corbyn wants and needs to be in power to effect all
:14:50. > :14:52.of kind of policy changes and transformations he wants to bring
:14:53. > :14:56.about and that have caused over half a million members to support his
:14:57. > :15:00.party. Not to be in a pressure group? Clearly not a pressure group,
:15:01. > :15:05.clearly a party that's in Parliament and wants to be in power. The
:15:06. > :15:10.interesting thing is, were that the case, I'm delighted to hear Rachel
:15:11. > :15:14.say that, he wouldn't be listening to a relatively small bunch of
:15:15. > :15:20.people... Are you talking about Momentum? He would be listening to
:15:21. > :15:24.the nine million people who voted Labour and in my constituency at the
:15:25. > :15:27.last election. Relating to their concerns and concerned with
:15:28. > :15:33.increasing the number of people who vote Labour next time. If you look
:15:34. > :15:38.at every opinion poll, every analysis done of his actual personal
:15:39. > :15:40.credibility, we are doing worse than we have ever done probably in our
:15:41. > :15:50.entire history. What do you say for that? You know
:15:51. > :15:54.the poll ratings are disastrous, the worst-ever for aide leer at this
:15:55. > :15:57.point. Jeremy Corbyn's personal ratings are 64 points behind Theresa
:15:58. > :16:01.May. Can Labour win a general election from that point? I think
:16:02. > :16:04.the most important thing to say is that the Labour Party has problems
:16:05. > :16:09.and is in crisis and that has nothing to do with the leader.
:16:10. > :16:15.Nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn The Labour Party has struggled in
:16:16. > :16:19.elections, haemorrhaging voters, regardless of the leader. How long
:16:20. > :16:23.are you taking that back for? Tony Blair won three elections for a row.
:16:24. > :16:27.We were in Government for 13 years. The Labour Party has been
:16:28. > :16:31.haemorrhaging. Let Rachael finish. You are saying since Ed Miliband?
:16:32. > :16:34.I'm saying the Labour Party is in crisis, and that would be the case
:16:35. > :16:38.whoever was the leader and the truth of the matter is that neither of us
:16:39. > :16:42.knows, how Jeremy Corbyn would perform. Because we haven't seen
:16:43. > :16:47.what he could do. We haven't seen what he could do with a united
:16:48. > :16:51.party, with all the talents and capabilities of MPs like you, behind
:16:52. > :16:55.him. He haven't seen what he could do with 500,000 people supporting
:16:56. > :17:00.him in the party, the biggest membership of any party across
:17:01. > :17:03.Europe. When that group of people is galvanised ape put into effect in
:17:04. > :17:07.canvasses and campaigns and gets out and talks to people on the streets,
:17:08. > :17:16.we don't know what the result will be. Margaret... I talk to people all
:17:17. > :17:19.the time. Hang on, it is clear that Jeremy Corbyn is going to win the
:17:20. > :17:25.leadership election. Not necessarily. Lets Ayerza superhe has
:17:26. > :17:30.won it Not necessarily. If he does, is it time for MPs, Labour MPs who
:17:31. > :17:34.had no confidence in him before to unite behind him? I think what, you
:17:35. > :17:37.know, it is very difficult. I think ofry Member of Parliament will have
:17:38. > :17:45.to make their own decision. I'm afraid I'm in the camp that believes
:17:46. > :17:48.that Jeremy Corbyn with his policies. This is not in anyway
:17:49. > :17:54.personal. I have known and liked him personally. I think it is the camp
:17:55. > :17:58.from which he comes, I know #4i78 from the '80s, Jo, when you were
:17:59. > :18:02.first in television and I was active in politics. Their interest is not
:18:03. > :18:05.in gaining power, it is in destroying capitalism and trying to
:18:06. > :18:09.overthrow the current system. That's where they come from. Therefore, I
:18:10. > :18:13.shall always be in the camp on trying to secure a leadership in
:18:14. > :18:17.Parliament that actually brings... Can I say one other thing, if you
:18:18. > :18:21.have lost the support of over 80% of your Members of Parliament, from all
:18:22. > :18:24.whiches of the party, if all of them choose to resign, I think, actually
:18:25. > :18:29.the grown-up thing to do, the thing with integrity to do is to walk away
:18:30. > :18:35.and allow the party in Parliament to then have a leader that they can...
:18:36. > :18:39.He clearly is not doing that and hasn't up until now. In terms of
:18:40. > :18:43.unity, do you think that cause was helped by a leak of a list of Labour
:18:44. > :18:50.MPs who have been disloyal to Jeremy Corbyn, was then sort of let out by
:18:51. > :18:52.a member of the team. Will that help unify the Parliamentary Labour
:18:53. > :18:58.Party. I want to answer that question but I want to respond to
:18:59. > :19:02.that point. Destroy capitalism is quite a label to put on people whose
:19:03. > :19:05.politics are in line with a lot of popular thinking when it comes this
:19:06. > :19:08.things like investment in public infrastructure and the
:19:09. > :19:10.renationalisation of public services and fairer taxation, reducing
:19:11. > :19:16.inequality. Supporting the welfare state. I think those policies are
:19:17. > :19:20.actually quite reasonable. And the sort of policies that will resonate
:19:21. > :19:25.for people who struggle every day, as a result of the politics imposed
:19:26. > :19:29.by this current Government. They haven't resonated so far. Answer the
:19:30. > :19:33.question about the list of MPs. This was a mistake. It was devastating to
:19:34. > :19:37.see that happen, especially on the same day that we saw the Labour
:19:38. > :19:40.Party, how brilliant and effective an opposition it could be when it
:19:41. > :19:44.was united over a cause and with its leader. It was a mistake. It is
:19:45. > :19:48.important to remember that the campaign is very separate from the
:19:49. > :19:51.leadership office. The two have nothing to do with each other and
:19:52. > :19:56.while the campaign, of course it is trying to fight a leadership battle,
:19:57. > :20:00.is going to have that mentality about it, the leadership office and
:20:01. > :20:03.his team are not about battle any more, they are actually about unite
:20:04. > :20:07.and reconciliation. We can see that from the way... There is no
:20:08. > :20:12.crossover when the two. As I understand it, the two are in tact
:20:13. > :20:15.and now we can see the which is do. It is important for the Labour Party
:20:16. > :20:19.leadership to be now talking about... Doesn't it undermine Jeremy
:20:20. > :20:22.Corbyn's whole argument about a cinder, gentler politics and trying
:20:23. > :20:27.to unify and reach out to empoo. It did the opposite. I think it was a
:20:28. > :20:30.mistake and I think the campaign team swiftly realised the mistake
:20:31. > :20:33.and apologised for T I think Jeremy Corbyn's team is talking very much
:20:34. > :20:37.about unity. We saw him talking about unity last night in the debate
:20:38. > :20:41.with Owen Smith. That's where the party needs to be thinking right
:20:42. > :20:48.now. What about, then, the performance of Jeremy Corbyn at
:20:49. > :20:53.PMQs, it was his best PMQs. He won MMQs and there were lots of Labour
:20:54. > :20:58.MPs who don't support him Jeremy Corbyn, tweeting high praise of that
:20:59. > :21:01.performance yesterday. If he were to go on issues that unify the
:21:02. > :21:05.Parliamentary Labour Party, could there be cause for the two sides
:21:06. > :21:09.coming together? I think there is a lot of underlying values and
:21:10. > :21:13.policies on which probably Rachael and I agree, I agree it is a
:21:14. > :21:17.mistake. I think what is interesting, if you are a leader of
:21:18. > :21:21.a party, you are the leader of the parliamentary party as well as other
:21:22. > :21:24.parts of the party and every grouping has dissenters and people
:21:25. > :21:30.who have a different view. As the leader it is your job, actually, if
:21:31. > :21:35.somebody disagrees, you bring them in, you don't publicly admonish
:21:36. > :21:40.them. Which he didn't do. Which he has never done. To be honest, I
:21:41. > :21:45.don't make this distinction, the leader is the leader of the leader's
:21:46. > :21:49.office. He has to be responsible for all those working for him. He is
:21:50. > :21:52.also the candidate. He has to be responsible for the team working for
:21:53. > :21:58.him. To say it is somebody else's fault, it is not me I am eight Mr
:21:59. > :22:03.Nice Guy, I don't buy that. It is central to the whole of the way that
:22:04. > :22:06.the system operates, I'm afraid under Jeremy Corbyn. But whatever
:22:07. > :22:10.you think about it, obviously we are going to disagree with, that I
:22:11. > :22:14.separate the two. I think he has been talking about uniony. #r5rdless
:22:15. > :22:18.t doesn't matter, what matters now is getting the party to unite -- -
:22:19. > :22:22.regardless, it doesn't matter. It is about getting the party to unite.
:22:23. > :22:26.There was a discussion between Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith about
:22:27. > :22:29.how many seats they needed to win the next election. We can argue
:22:30. > :22:33.about the numbers another time. But as it stands to have a majority of
:22:34. > :22:37.one, Labour needs to win a seat like base I think stone with a Tory
:22:38. > :22:40.majority of 10,000. It has never had a Labour MP, do you think that's
:22:41. > :22:45.possible under Jeremy Corbyn? I think we are looking at a country
:22:46. > :22:49.that post-Brexit feels worried and insecure. We have the highest levels
:22:50. > :22:54.of inequality. People are worried daily about how they are going to
:22:55. > :23:00.make it from week-to-week... Sure but can they win a seat like basing
:23:01. > :23:03.stone With 500,000 peel behind Labour, campaigning, discussing the
:23:04. > :23:05.issues on the streets, maybe they can be persuaded. We don't know. All
:23:06. > :23:08.right. Thank you. It's not just Labour that's picking
:23:09. > :23:11.a new leader at the moment. The ballot for the next leader
:23:12. > :23:14.of Ukip closed just as we came on air, and the successor
:23:15. > :23:17.to Nigel Farage is due to be announced at the party
:23:18. > :23:18.conference tomorrow. the party's having a struggle to put
:23:19. > :23:22.on a united front. Ellie's been to Wales,
:23:23. > :23:25.where the party scored a major win in elections earlier this year,
:23:26. > :23:28.to find out more. Who do EU think you're kidding
:23:29. > :23:33.Mr Smith, This is what taking the fight
:23:34. > :23:38.to Labour looks like. Ukip campaigners outside
:23:39. > :23:40.the constituency office of the Labour Leadership
:23:41. > :23:42.contender Owen Smith. The party sees an opportunity in
:23:43. > :23:47.Labour heartlands where the vote to leave the EU
:23:48. > :23:54.was above the national average. As with most of the Welsh valleys,
:23:55. > :23:57.there's been a Labour MP here in Yet, there's evidence
:23:58. > :24:02.Ukip is making inroads. the party came second
:24:03. > :24:06.in the last general election. in this year's Welsh Assembly
:24:07. > :24:16.elections. But the challenge here will be
:24:17. > :24:19.convincing voters that Ukip still has a role following that
:24:20. > :24:23.Brexit vote. Perhaps, I think it might
:24:24. > :24:26.be the end of them. They seem a bit disjointed
:24:27. > :24:28.in Wales, don't they? Would you vote Ukip?
:24:29. > :24:29.No. Have you ever voted Ukip?
:24:30. > :24:33.No. Do you think Ukip can start
:24:34. > :24:35.winning here in Wales? Well, yes, I'd like to think
:24:36. > :24:40.they could, yeah. And there's another problem
:24:41. > :24:42.round the corner too. The internal divisions within Ukip
:24:43. > :24:45.have been well publicised. On the one side, you've those
:24:46. > :24:50.loyal to Nigel Farage. On the other, a camp of people who
:24:51. > :24:53.felt sidelined by his leadership. The likes of Douglas Carswell,
:24:54. > :24:55.the party's only MP. I'm told the two men haven't spoken
:24:56. > :25:00.since before the EU referendum. But if you think that's bad,
:25:01. > :25:04.welcome to the Welsh Assembly. He says he's the Ukip leader in
:25:05. > :25:11.Wales, but he's a Ukip MEP for Wales but that he sits as an independent
:25:12. > :25:16.on the Welsh Assembly. The reason for that is I just felt
:25:17. > :25:19.it was impossible to work within the group of some of the Assembly
:25:20. > :25:25.Members here. I didn't want to be
:25:26. > :25:28.associated with them. They were basically working
:25:29. > :25:31.against the party, the leadership. I felt it important to distance
:25:32. > :25:35.myself from them. He's talking in particular
:25:36. > :25:37.about Neil Hamilton. that he's no longer a member of the
:25:38. > :25:43.Ukip group in the Assembly. Hasn't had the courtesy to write
:25:44. > :25:46.to me to tell me that. His fundamental problem is he hasn't
:25:47. > :25:50.been able to get over the fact that he didn't have the confidence
:25:51. > :25:52.of his colleagues Doesn't reflect very well
:25:53. > :25:59.on the party, does it? No, it doesn't reflect
:26:00. > :26:01.very well on him. He doesn't exactly have a cuddly
:26:02. > :26:03.relationship with Nigel Farage. But he does have friends on the
:26:04. > :26:05.party's But allies of the leadership
:26:06. > :26:08.frontrunner Diane James, These people are not fit
:26:09. > :26:18.to run a village fate. So, whatever happens
:26:19. > :26:19.with the leadership on Friday, is there going to be
:26:20. > :26:22.a blood bath in Ukip? Some of it might be where people
:26:23. > :26:26.will just choose themselves to leave the party or to remove themselves
:26:27. > :26:30.from very public positions. But I think, ultimately,
:26:31. > :26:32.whoever the new leader is, you're going to need a team
:26:33. > :26:36.of people around you that you can trust and who are not going to spend
:26:37. > :26:40.the next two or three years back-stabbing you and
:26:41. > :26:46.trying to undermine you. The long-term success of Ukip
:26:47. > :26:49.will depend on decisions made in the coming weeks and months
:26:50. > :26:52.on policy, on personalities. The new leader will have
:26:53. > :26:58.a lot of work to do. Joining me now is Steve Stanbury,
:26:59. > :27:08.formerly Party Director of Ukip. Welcome to the programme. What do
:27:09. > :27:13.you make of what is going on in the party, in Wales, particularly? Well,
:27:14. > :27:17.Wales is a mess. Wales is very disorganised and lots of in-fighting
:27:18. > :27:22.but I think that really is just the I to have the iceberg and actually
:27:23. > :27:26.shows as there is a much wider, broader problem within Ukip in terms
:27:27. > :27:28.of competence, in terms of people, in terms of not having good
:27:29. > :27:33.candidates coming forward for the leadership. That has been a
:27:34. > :27:37.nightmare. Actually, Jo, I think the bigger problem is not about
:27:38. > :27:43.individuals and the factions, I think it is in terms of strategy and
:27:44. > :27:48.what Ukip does in the future. The big question is - does Ukip have a
:27:49. > :27:55.future s it relevant? Do you not think it is? I think really it's
:27:56. > :27:59.best days are behind T I think Ukip has set out, fundamentally to
:28:00. > :28:03.achieve what it was meant to do. Ukip's mission was to get a rev and
:28:04. > :28:06.to contribute to the winning of that referendum and Ukip has done that
:28:07. > :28:10.and done it well. But going forwards now, I think it is actually the
:28:11. > :28:13.Conservative Party that is better-placed to actually now
:28:14. > :28:18.deliver on Brexit and that's why, Jo, I have decided and I hope many
:28:19. > :28:21.of my colleagues will, that I'm actually leaving Ukip and rejoining
:28:22. > :28:25.the Conservative Party. That's it, it is over for you. You were a
:28:26. > :28:28.long-standing member of u ki. You feel they have achieved what they
:28:29. > :28:32.set out to do and you have left, defected? I have, I have gone back
:28:33. > :28:37.to the Conservative Party for a number of reasons. Ukip set out what
:28:38. > :28:41.it intended to do. The principal objective was to secure a
:28:42. > :28:43.referendum. Before David Cameron, in January 2013, before he gave that
:28:44. > :28:46.position, his position, the position of the Conservative Party was
:28:47. > :28:51.against a referendum, to not let the people have a say. The referendum
:28:52. > :28:56.was offered because of the pressure Ukip put on the Conservative Party.
:28:57. > :29:00.Ukip played a big and positive role and actually winning the referendum.
:29:01. > :29:05.Now, what we all need to do is deliver on Brexit. What I would say
:29:06. > :29:09.to many of my colleagues and friends in Ukip, is come home, come back to
:29:10. > :29:11.the Conservative Party, because that's where and how we can actually
:29:12. > :29:16.deliver on Brexit. That's the priority now. It is not very loyal
:29:17. > :29:21.of you, bearing in mind you have been part of this party which has
:29:22. > :29:25.achieved in your own words "actually having a referendum on the EU." Our
:29:26. > :29:29.relationship with the EU and achieved what you wanted, Brexit and
:29:30. > :29:34.now you are going to run off and jointed Conservatives again I don't
:29:35. > :29:38.think politics and parties should be looked at like brands, football
:29:39. > :29:43.teams. It is about ideas and change and the sort of country we want to
:29:44. > :29:47.have. Ukip's principles and policies in terms of giving the British
:29:48. > :29:50.people a say and becoming a solve governing country again, we have
:29:51. > :29:56.achieved that and now the best way to deliver on that... Is to go to
:29:57. > :30:00.the party that Theresa May was a Remainer. Gowering going into a
:30:01. > :30:06.party under a Prime Minister and leader who voted to Remain? Theresa
:30:07. > :30:09.May was always regarded as a very reluctant and sceptical Remainer.
:30:10. > :30:14.But look at her record and what she has said and what she is doing now
:30:15. > :30:17.already. I think her appointments in the Cabinet, a leading role for most
:30:18. > :30:22.of the Brexiteers, is really very good. I think Boris Johnson is an
:30:23. > :30:25.excellent choice for Foreign Secretary and I think there is going
:30:26. > :30:30.to be a lot of change in positive direction and also, I would say, the
:30:31. > :30:33.way in which other ways, subtle but important ways in which the
:30:34. > :30:38.Conservative Party is change a new education policy is great thing.
:30:39. > :30:40.Scepticism on our wasteful, grotesquely wasteless foreign aid
:30:41. > :30:44.budget. All is recovering core values that I believe will... I
:30:45. > :30:50.don't think they're getting rid of it at the moment. You think they are
:30:51. > :30:56.sticking to that spending. From GDP of 0.7%. Have you told Nigel Farage?
:30:57. > :31:02.We are literally the second people to know? What did he say?
:31:03. > :31:08.Disappointed but I think a lot of people... Did he try to make you
:31:09. > :31:12.stay? No. I think a lot of people will follow in my footsteps. I kip
:31:13. > :31:19.played a really important role in terms of our national story, our
:31:20. > :31:23.national politics. We've got O'This wonderful place where we are a
:31:24. > :31:26.self-governing country. The Conservative Party can be the only
:31:27. > :31:29.party now that delivers on Brexit. That's the priority. This is the
:31:30. > :31:32.sucks says of Theresa May and the Conservative Party. They're not
:31:33. > :31:40.coming to the Labour Party, are they? I think a lot of the people
:31:41. > :31:44.who voted to -- on Brexit to leave Europe are traditional Labour
:31:45. > :31:49.voters. This there is a task for the Labour Party to bring them back into
:31:50. > :31:55.the Labour fold. We were remain. But out of touch with a lot of your
:31:56. > :32:04.voters when you look at the northern towns and cities who voted to leave.
:32:05. > :32:09.I know more than anything, we had 12 elected BNP councillors elected in
:32:10. > :32:13.2006. I know more than most, the importance of staying in touch with
:32:14. > :32:17.your voters, reflecting the issues of concern, for me that's
:32:18. > :32:22.immigration. I think that was wrongly exploited in the Brexit
:32:23. > :32:25.campaign. Deeply regret that. Labour has that challenge of getting in
:32:26. > :32:31.touch. Reare flecting that in what they say in Parliament. Does Owen
:32:32. > :32:38.Smith's promise of a second referendum help in terms of bringing
:32:39. > :32:43.back those marginalised voters who feel the party doesn't understand
:32:44. > :32:49.them? I don't entirely go with Owen on that. You are supporting him? I
:32:50. > :32:53.am on the broader front. We need to tackle immigration which is why I
:32:54. > :32:58.think most people voted to leave Europe. I think it's really
:32:59. > :33:01.important to engage with people to build a really strongly diverse
:33:02. > :33:07.country that is at peace with it Elfself. Do you think it's a mistake
:33:08. > :33:13.of Owen Smith to pursue this second rev reign dumb? We'll see. Every day
:33:14. > :33:18.you wake up and listen to the news there's further delay in seeing what
:33:19. > :33:23.that means in practice. The three people charged in looking at this
:33:24. > :33:28.are spending their times rowing with each other on the Tory bench. We
:33:29. > :33:31.heard today from the Germans that we're unlikely to be able to start
:33:32. > :33:36.engaging after they've had their national... Doesn't mean it won't
:33:37. > :33:43.happen? Depends how and when it happens. 9 details. Do you feel
:33:44. > :33:49.you've let people down. Ukip was' just about leaving the EU. Always.
:33:50. > :33:54.Ukip's principle purpose was to free Britain from the shackles of the EU.
:33:55. > :33:59.You don't think it will survive? Not in its current form. I want the
:34:00. > :34:05.Conservative Party to be successful. In order to deliver on Brexit. Then
:34:06. > :34:09.take advantage of all the opportunities that flow from Brexit,
:34:10. > :34:12.we will need a bigger Conservative majority. People need to rejoin the
:34:13. > :34:14.Conservative Party. There will not be very much space for Ukip in that.
:34:15. > :34:16.Steve, thank you. And you can see Nigel Farage's
:34:17. > :34:18.farewell speech at the Ukip conference
:34:19. > :34:21.on the Daily Politics tomorrow. We'll be on air at the slightly
:34:22. > :34:24.earlier time of 11.30am Now, our guest of the day, Margaret
:34:25. > :34:28.Hodge, chaired the Commons Public and she learned so much
:34:29. > :34:32.about government waste, incompetence and corporate bad behaviour she's
:34:33. > :34:36.even written a book about it. to help give the work of select
:34:37. > :34:42.committees a far higher profile, after the chairmen became elected by
:34:43. > :34:46.fellow MPs - rather than nominated Let's have a look at Margaret
:34:47. > :34:52.and a few other moments where the committees have
:34:53. > :34:56.made their mark. In that case,
:34:57. > :35:02.you were either incredibly naive, and I don't think that the record
:35:03. > :35:10.that you've shown of your performance here, as a guardian of
:35:11. > :35:13.HSBC, gives me the confidence that you should be the guardian of the
:35:14. > :35:17.BBC licence fee payers' money. I really do think you should
:35:18. > :35:19.consider your position and you should think about resigning
:35:20. > :35:23.and if not, I think Mr Murdoch, at what point did
:35:24. > :35:33.you find out that criminality Endemic is a very hard -
:35:34. > :35:45.a very wide-ranging word. Did the Bank of England consider
:35:46. > :35:49.whether it was in the public interest to risk its
:35:50. > :35:52.reputation of impartiality. I think those that cast it
:35:53. > :35:56.into question should consider their motivations
:35:57. > :36:04.and their judgments. Sir, do you mind not looking at me
:36:05. > :36:07.like that all the time, You seem extraordinarily
:36:08. > :36:14.thin-skinned to quite courteous questions,
:36:15. > :36:16.as if you don't want to be challenged in any
:36:17. > :36:18.way, shape or form... In terms of that wider corporate
:36:19. > :36:23.governance point, in respect of the selling of BHS, did anybody,
:36:24. > :36:26.particularly your non-exe directors say, "Phil I'm not entirely
:36:27. > :36:29.certain this is correct, That doesn't seem to be the culture
:36:30. > :36:34.of the organisation. he's Chairman of Public Affairs
:36:35. > :36:45.at Weber Shandwick and he has prepared witnesses to
:36:46. > :36:56.appear before the select committees. Someone's got to do it. Welcome to
:36:57. > :37:00.the programme. So, Margaret Hodge, you've written this book and Jon has
:37:01. > :37:04.brought it in. There it is. In terms of what you were trying to do on
:37:05. > :37:11.that committee, do you think it was all about just getting publicity?
:37:12. > :37:15.No. We used the power of the media to draw issues to the public
:37:16. > :37:19.account. We have very few tools in our box. We're not an executive
:37:20. > :37:24.body. The only way you can raise issues and make sure they're
:37:25. > :37:30.properly discussed in public is to get people like you, Jo, interested
:37:31. > :37:33.in them. I'm not ashamed of the fact we are, were, theatre. It's great
:37:34. > :37:38.when you're theatre. You saw the best of the theatre in those clips
:37:39. > :37:43.you did. It is the purpose. Was it theatre for its own end, no. It was
:37:44. > :37:47.theatre to a purpose to draw people's attention to 2. Tax
:37:48. > :37:51.avoidance, which you didn't cover, which raps was the most important
:37:52. > :37:56.thing we did. If we hadn't brought the public into that and had that
:37:57. > :38:02.extent of public fury at it, we might not be seeing the changes the
:38:03. > :38:05.boardrooms we have today? . Do you agree with that select committees
:38:06. > :38:11.are sexier than ever these days because of the issues brought to the
:38:12. > :38:15.forein a he theatrical way? The Public Accounts Committee is an
:38:16. > :38:19.honourable exception as it Margaret. It is backed up by the National
:38:20. > :38:23.Audit Office and rigorous work around public spending which, as a
:38:24. > :38:29.taxpayer, I really become. I've had half an hour on the books so far. It
:38:30. > :38:34.as fabulously narrative and reflective tone. Anyone interested
:38:35. > :38:40.in the process. My issue about select committees is they give a gym
:38:41. > :38:44.crack accountability which is no substitute for really scoot Faizing
:38:45. > :38:48.Parliament. Earlier this week, David Davis sailed through a Lord's and
:38:49. > :38:53.Commons select committee on Brexit. They didn't put a finger on him at
:38:54. > :38:58.all. That's no good. We might end up agreeing a lot on this. The role of
:38:59. > :39:03.select committees, I really welcome the way they've emerged, I hope we
:39:04. > :39:07.keep that there, the accountability of the executive is really
:39:08. > :39:12.important. One reason they're all too often not effective, people look
:39:13. > :39:18.at future policy. New ideas. If you're a the left tackling
:39:19. > :39:20.inequality. On the right, privatisation, rather than looking
:39:21. > :39:25.at how the Government's doing, the record of the Government. Our voters
:39:26. > :39:29.out there care a lot of it's their money that's being used. They care
:39:30. > :39:33.how programmes are being implemented, how money's spent.
:39:34. > :39:36.Select committees could do more. As Ian write is doing, looking at
:39:37. > :39:43.what's happening now than dreaming about what's in the future. Did they
:39:44. > :39:49.go too far? You relate to it in your book. He provoked Gus, O'Donnell,
:39:50. > :39:56.the head of the civil service at the time to say you were turning it into
:39:57. > :40:01.a theatrical exercise in public humiliation. Did he have a point?
:40:02. > :40:06.No, I have a lot of suggestions of things I'd like to change. One of
:40:07. > :40:10.them is about the tradition of how civil servants account to
:40:11. > :40:12.Parliament. At the moment, civil servants don't really account to
:40:13. > :40:16.Parliament. They account to ministers who account to Parliament.
:40:17. > :40:22.That all worked when there were 26 civil servants in the Home Office.
:40:23. > :40:26.Today, there are 36,000. I feel they should be accountable to torment.
:40:27. > :40:31.Gus O'Donnell disagrees with that. I think he's wrong. The current system
:40:32. > :40:36.is broke. Should it be in front of the cameras? It lends itself to show
:40:37. > :40:41.boating, grandstanding whoever is in front. If you took it off air, would
:40:42. > :40:48.people get more out of these politicians and business people? I
:40:49. > :40:55.do want them taken off air. The custard pie, Philip Green weirdness
:40:56. > :41:05.and Dominic come I thinks appearance which is one to appreciate... We all
:41:06. > :41:11.enjoyed it. But But for the public. It is about accountability. I think
:41:12. > :41:16.members of Parliament, their role is to hold the executive to account on
:41:17. > :41:20.behalf of the public. For the public to see it is really important. It
:41:21. > :41:26.may be uncomfortable, sometimes feel trivial. I can tell you, what we
:41:27. > :41:29.uncovered during the course of our inquiries really resonated with the
:41:30. > :41:33.public. I can tell that from my inbox, from the letters I got. I
:41:34. > :41:36.think it's an important way of bringing democracy closer to the
:41:37. > :41:44.people. Before we carry on, there was news today, I don't know if you
:41:45. > :41:49.came across it, a member of your public accounts committee, Justin
:41:50. > :41:53.Tomlinson who's facings suspicion for leeking a report on payday
:41:54. > :41:58.lenders Wonga. He's made a statement. I wanted to take this
:41:59. > :42:04.opportunity to make a full under unrest everybodied apology to the
:42:05. > :42:07.house. In 2013 I broke the rules of conduct by drafting on buck lick
:42:08. > :42:13.accounts regarding the receiptinglation of consumer credit.
:42:14. > :42:18.An investigation by the Parliament standards was investigating in 2015
:42:19. > :42:24.following a complaint made by won Ga. The reports submitted by the
:42:25. > :42:29.commission of standards. I accept that my actions ensure in sharing
:42:30. > :42:33.the report constituted intear fearence and for this I'm truly
:42:34. > :42:39.sorry. This was never my intention. These actions came as a result of my
:42:40. > :42:43.own naivety driven by a desire to strengthen regulations on payday
:42:44. > :42:48.lenders and protect vulnerable consumers. Naivety, Margaret Hodge,
:42:49. > :42:53.is putting it nicely? Should he be suspended? Do you know, I do think
:42:54. > :42:59.in this particular instance it was naivety. It was an early time, he'd
:43:00. > :43:03.only been on the committee for a couple of months. It was wrong. He
:43:04. > :43:09.shouldn't have done it. I feel a bit sorry for him. You could see he was
:43:10. > :43:14.responding in a very personal way. He sounded quite upset. Do you think
:43:15. > :43:18.he should be suspended I think there is an issue overall about
:43:19. > :43:23.committees, the piano should respect the process. Even when I'm preparing
:43:24. > :43:28.witnesses, you must respect the process. You must answer the
:43:29. > :43:34.questions being asked and you have to get your message across. In all
:43:35. > :43:39.aspects the committees need a deep review and more resourcing to get
:43:40. > :43:45.them in front of departments toe to toe to challenge them. We'll have
:43:46. > :43:51.new select committees to scrutinise Brexit? One of the things I talk
:43:52. > :43:54.about in the book when ministers tried to influence things which
:43:55. > :44:00.happened in the committee is deeply wrong. I'll never probably prove it.
:44:01. > :44:04.It was obvious to me people had been nobbled. Members of the committee.
:44:05. > :44:09.By ministers. That was totally unacceptable. Are there too many
:44:10. > :44:14.people on these committees? Sometimes the questions and
:44:15. > :44:21.diversity, they go off on a tangent can sometimes lose a thread? The
:44:22. > :44:24.quality is variable. There are occasional drowsy moments when
:44:25. > :44:31.you're watching committees in progress. It's not always exciting.
:44:32. > :44:37.Isn't isn't that good for your clients? Bore them to death is a
:44:38. > :44:42.strategy. Drove me mad. The committees are the right size. We
:44:43. > :44:49.need sharp members. What about this thrix the committee? It will be
:44:50. > :44:54.chaired by a Labour MP? Is that it? Yes, should the post go to a
:44:55. > :44:58.remainor like Hilary Benn or geese letter Stuart who is a Brexiteer? If
:44:59. > :45:03.you want to reflect the Labour Party, it should be a remainor. It
:45:04. > :45:06.would be a good balance against the direction of Government if you want
:45:07. > :45:11.to hold it properly to account. Remember, the vote, whilst I'm not
:45:12. > :45:16.for having another vote, the vote wasn't that unevenly balanced. Final
:45:17. > :45:21.words of advice to your clients and then your committee members? It's
:45:22. > :45:25.fundamentally work with the process. It is important even though I have
:45:26. > :45:30.my criticisms of it. But don't be afraid to take advice. I know
:45:31. > :45:35.Margaret the arend her fellow chairs have hated people being prepared. If
:45:36. > :45:39.you look overprepared, it's useless. Respect the process, answer the
:45:40. > :45:45.question. Get your message across. I don't think people need to be
:45:46. > :45:48.prebared. If thaw came, were honest, answered directly, they didn't
:45:49. > :45:53.waffle on, they would get a fair hearing. It's when people didn't
:45:54. > :45:58.answer directly that they then got a rough time. I think we agree. You
:45:59. > :46:02.enjoyed it? I did. I had five good years. I hope the purpose of the
:46:03. > :46:06.book is not just to describe some of the hearings we had, but also to
:46:07. > :46:08.make suggestion for the future. I hope they will be taken seriously
:46:09. > :46:15.and debated. Jon, thank you. A new group will launch today
:46:16. > :46:18.with the aim of winning the support of ethnic minority voters
:46:19. > :46:20.for the Conservatives. The campaign group, Modern Britain,
:46:21. > :46:22.aims to replicate grassroots campaigning techniques
:46:23. > :46:27.being developed in Canada. Ethnic minority voters will play
:46:28. > :46:29.an increasingly prominent role in future general elections,
:46:30. > :46:31.with non-white people projected to make up 30%
:46:32. > :46:36.of the population by 2050. Of the 20 seats the Conservative
:46:37. > :46:40.Party has the best chance of gaining in 2020, 10 have a proportion
:46:41. > :46:47.of ethnic-minority voters above 10%. In Ealing Central Acton,
:46:48. > :46:52.for example, the Conservatives only have to overturn a 0.5% Labour
:46:53. > :46:55.majority, while 29.9% of the electorate is black,
:46:56. > :47:03.Asian or mixed. Research by British Influence
:47:04. > :47:05.in the last general election suggests the Conservatives
:47:06. > :47:08.have a long way to go to win They found Labour were winning 50%
:47:09. > :47:11.of the Asian vote It was even more marked among black
:47:12. > :47:19.voters, Labour winning 67% compared We're joined now by Kulveer Ranger,
:47:20. > :47:25.he was an adviser to former London mayor, Boris Johnson,
:47:26. > :47:35.and is now director of Modern Welcome to the Daily Politics. This
:47:36. > :47:39.isn't the first time, obviously, the Conservatives say they want to
:47:40. > :47:42.appeal more to ethnic minority voters. Why has it not worked in the
:47:43. > :47:47.past? It is not the Conservatives saying T I am a Conservative but we
:47:48. > :47:52.are doing this from outside the party. Sure but it is to attract
:47:53. > :47:59.ethnic minorities to the Conservative Party. . Momentum for
:48:00. > :48:04.the Conservative Party. If we were half as successful, you would be
:48:05. > :48:10.pleased. I think the Conservatives have tried to attract ethnic
:48:11. > :48:17.minority voters. We have had generational migration in. Like
:48:18. > :48:20.Windrush. And u began da. Maybe the Conservatives weren't seen as
:48:21. > :48:23.welcoming, maybe they thought they didn't need those votes, generally
:48:24. > :48:28.outside the inner cities where the large pockets of immigrants tended
:48:29. > :48:31.to be based but now we have seen internal migration, due to these
:48:32. > :48:34.communities doing well, increasing in affluence, but there is still a
:48:35. > :48:44.cultural bind that holds these communities together. We look at the
:48:45. > :48:47.black community. Maybe it is around churches, carnival, religion and so
:48:48. > :48:50.the voting pattern can remain although it is getting softer. That
:48:51. > :48:54.makes it sound like the Conservative Party has never been interested in
:48:55. > :48:57.appealing until ethnic minority voters until they realise they need
:48:58. > :49:01.to if they are going to continue winning elections? I think that's
:49:02. > :49:05.right. So they don't care about ethnic minority voters, is that what
:49:06. > :49:08.you are saying? There has been short-term engagement when it comes
:49:09. > :49:12.to an electoral cycle. We need a long-term understanding to build the
:49:13. > :49:15.trust, especially nowadays where the vote is becoming more transactional.
:49:16. > :49:19.People are looking around more and looking at what is happening on the
:49:20. > :49:23.Labour side and in terms of the referendum, and they want it feel
:49:24. > :49:26.people are hearing their voice and I think in a diverse, modern Britain
:49:27. > :49:29.that we have, which is a success in the international world, in terms of
:49:30. > :49:33.the different cultures that we have, I think the Conservative Party must
:49:34. > :49:37.take a longer, strategic view of how it listens to these communities. So
:49:38. > :49:43.is the Conservative Party brand still damaged in the eyes of the
:49:44. > :49:47.minorities which is what Sajid Javid said - remember Enoch Powell and his
:49:48. > :49:50.speeches, when he was a Conservative politician. I think there is a
:49:51. > :49:55.generation that will remember that but there is a lot more now, second,
:49:56. > :50:00.third, fourth generation, who will not recall Enoch Powell and will not
:50:01. > :50:03.understand what the Rivers of Blood meant but will think of modern
:50:04. > :50:07.Conservatism through the eyes of what David Cameron has done, the
:50:08. > :50:14.engagement he started, his 2020 agenda. See what does that mean?
:50:15. > :50:16.What wr is the waying of saying that policy development can be informal
:50:17. > :50:23.from what those communities feel and want to address. The problem for
:50:24. > :50:27.Labour is taking people for granted. It has lost Scotland and lost a lot
:50:28. > :50:31.of Labour voters in heartland north. It could do the same for ethnic
:50:32. > :50:35.minority voters that for whatever reason, tend to vote Labour? I
:50:36. > :50:40.agree, actually, Jo. I think Labour can the no just assume that people
:50:41. > :50:44.who traditionally voted Labour will continue to do this. Neither can the
:50:45. > :50:48.Conservatives, I don't think any political party can work on the
:50:49. > :50:53.assumption you are tribal. You have to constantly reach out to voters
:50:54. > :50:57.and ensure you relate to the issues that matter to them and you have to
:50:58. > :51:01.constantly ensure you are listening to what they say. So, yes, we have
:51:02. > :51:05.to work to earn every ethnic minority vote that we have
:51:06. > :51:09.traditionally had and we must learn the lessons of Scotland and not
:51:10. > :51:15.presume T the only thing I would say to you is - on the whole - Labour
:51:16. > :51:18.has a good record to what we have done to support ethnic minorities.
:51:19. > :51:24.My feel would be that the anti-immigration stance that was
:51:25. > :51:27.there in the Brexit campaign, would not help you encourage immigrant
:51:28. > :51:31.communities to actually come over to the Conservative Party. I mean, you
:51:32. > :51:35.have a problem - and I think although you say Cameron was a
:51:36. > :51:38.different place, I agree. I think actually the Brexiteer who is won in
:51:39. > :51:43.the Conservative Party, give a bad message it people or out of
:51:44. > :51:48.immigrant communities. Briefly, do you think now we should be lumping
:51:49. > :51:53.ethnic minority groups together. I mean they are really very different
:51:54. > :51:57.and would that not help the general political integration of groups of
:51:58. > :52:00.people? Yes, I cringe at the word "minority" in some areas it is
:52:01. > :52:03.diverse communities, and it is not the minority but I think there are
:52:04. > :52:07.cultural binds that hold them together. I agree that the
:52:08. > :52:13.referendum vote and the return of the phrase like "go home lackey"
:52:14. > :52:19.something I hadn't heard since I was a child, is something we need to
:52:20. > :52:24.tackle this, we have been working a few of us, we have been working on
:52:25. > :52:27.this for quite a long time now. I have been in the Conservative Party
:52:28. > :52:31.for 15 years and understand some of the challenges but this is really
:52:32. > :52:35.looking at the future and following on the engagement agenda.
:52:36. > :52:39.Now, the Oxford and Cambridge boat race is one of the highlights of the
:52:40. > :52:42.One of the less well-known highlights - maybe it's just more
:52:43. > :52:46.of a light - is the annual race along a somewhat shorter stretch
:52:47. > :52:49.of the Thames between the House of Commons and the House of Lords.
:52:50. > :52:54.Over there, they are used to sticking their oars in.
:52:55. > :52:57.Now the Lords and the Commons are about to do it for real,
:52:58. > :53:00.on the River Thames in the annual parliamentary boat race in aid
:53:01. > :53:02.of a charity called the International Sports
:53:03. > :53:07.I thought rowers were meant to be buffer than that.
:53:08. > :53:17.There's also a hearty doze of nautical humour.
:53:18. > :53:21.You have to be careful of having a crab.
:53:22. > :53:22.That's the biggest threat in the race.
:53:23. > :53:25.When you get your oar in the wrong spot.
:53:26. > :53:29.Something I'm very passionate about and also it is for a good
:53:30. > :53:34.While people may think it's frivolous, we do some good as well.
:53:35. > :53:36.I heard when you fall in on the Thames, you have
:53:37. > :53:40.I don't know about that but I wouldn't suggest
:53:41. > :53:48.Right, got my BBC obligatory life jacket, so I can get closer
:53:49. > :53:50.This event has been happening for ten years now.
:53:51. > :53:53.The Commons have won five times and the Lords have won four
:53:54. > :53:58.As the teams cross the starting line at Lambeth Bridge,
:53:59. > :54:02.Both trying to avoid what happened three years ago,
:54:03. > :54:06.Now I'm no Clare Balding but it looks like their Lordships aren't
:54:07. > :54:18.It's a baking hot day here in London but our elective representatives
:54:19. > :54:28.Does this prove the primacy of the Commons over the Lords?
:54:29. > :54:30.I don't think it will settle that forever.
:54:31. > :54:33.But I notice some of the members of the House of Lords
:54:34. > :54:35.are actually former members of the House of Commons.
:54:36. > :54:40.Ah, so as soon as the race is over, they are back to rocking
:54:41. > :54:50.At least they are on dry land again. O
:54:51. > :54:55.and one of the losing peers, the Liberal Democrat Brian Paddick.
:54:56. > :55:02.Welcome. At least you won't sink, hopefully on this programme. Can any
:55:03. > :55:07.of you row? Yes, we can row. We are not as good as some of our
:55:08. > :55:10.colleagues who may have got a at Oxford but we got over the finish
:55:11. > :55:17.line without sipging. What happened last time We got caught under the
:55:18. > :55:22.bridge, the boat was swamped and went over. How do you feel on the
:55:23. > :55:27.losing side? Galling, to be honest. For the last two years we have won
:55:28. > :55:31.but one of our novices caught a crab, knocked the other person off
:55:32. > :55:35.his seat behind him, who ended up in the lap of the one behind. On a
:55:36. > :55:39.short course, it is very difficult to recover. It is not very long, is
:55:40. > :55:45.it, the course, when I think back to the races I see in the Thames? We
:55:46. > :55:51.have to row up to the start line. You are exhausted before you start.
:55:52. > :55:56.Exactly. You poor things Do you do training? We do. The Lords had an
:55:57. > :56:03.unfortune event, their boat was swamped on their training. We went
:56:04. > :56:08.training in Putney. They had to come in two halves to fit on the trailer.
:56:09. > :56:12.We boat we went inp hadn't been bolted together properly. I was told
:56:13. > :56:17.it was all right. It got up to seat level and that was the end of that.
:56:18. > :56:20.I hope you can all swim. Health and safety, with the welcome welcome, it
:56:21. > :56:28.sounds terrifying. But for a good cause. We raised ?10,000 for three
:56:29. > :56:34.charities. They are the London Youth Rowing the Matt Hamp son Trust Fund
:56:35. > :56:39.and the Company of Watermen and Lightmen. How competitive is it? I
:56:40. > :56:42.think there is a bit of rivalry amongst some of the participants
:56:43. > :56:47.like me, for example, but the important thing is we have a lot of
:56:48. > :56:50.fun and we raise a lot of money for charity. Is it difficult to recruit
:56:51. > :56:54.people to the boat? It is sometimes. And some people who raced yesterday
:56:55. > :57:02.it was their first time in the boat. First time in? Yes. And were there
:57:03. > :57:09.eight MPs? Seven. Six actually. They had some ringers. We had eight
:57:10. > :57:14.genuine Lords in boat Isn't it harder in the Lords to find people
:57:15. > :57:18.who want to do this? Bearing in mind of background of a lot of
:57:19. > :57:21.hereditaries and Tories, you find a larger proportion of people who have
:57:22. > :57:25.rowed before than perhaps in the Commons. Maybe they have the
:57:26. > :57:32.advantage. What about a women's team or mixed team? I have never heard of
:57:33. > :57:39.it. I'm really upset. I have a loud voice, I'm short... You could be the
:57:40. > :57:46.cox. Sign Margaret up, you know. Why isn't it mixed? In previous years we
:57:47. > :57:52.have had some women. Kelly Tilhurst wanted to race. She injured her arm
:57:53. > :57:59.so couldn't do it. And we had a blue at Oxford. Everybody went to Oxford
:58:00. > :58:04.and Cambridge. Oh, they didn't do it at your university, LSC? I had never
:58:05. > :58:07.rowed before I started this three years ago. I went to the wrong
:58:08. > :58:13.school, obviously. What about, are you going to do it in the next few
:58:14. > :58:17.years? Absolutely. Going down to Putney on a weekday morning when the
:58:18. > :58:20.sun is shining, it is absolutely beautiful and I would really
:58:21. > :58:24.encourage people to come down and have a go because it really is great
:58:25. > :58:28.fun. And it was a beautiful day. It was. With the success of the
:58:29. > :58:32.Olympics as well, rowing is becoming more of an interest sport. Something
:58:33. > :58:37.else we are trying to promote. As Brian said, the view of the House of
:58:38. > :58:43.Commons and House of Parliament from the river. Well an expansion of tug
:58:44. > :58:45.of war and Parliamently dog of the year, and whatever else I have had
:58:46. > :58:47.to do recently. Just time to reveal -
:58:48. > :58:51.because we forgot to yesterday - that the answer to
:58:52. > :58:54.Guess the Year was 1973.