:00:38. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.David Cameron wanted the Conservative Party to "stop
:00:43. > :00:46.And we all know what happened to him.
:00:47. > :00:48.Now Theresa May is starting to feel the pressure
:00:49. > :00:57.The Prime Minister is facing calls from Eurosceptic Conservative MPs
:00:58. > :00:59.for a so-called "hard Brexit", demanding Britain quits the single
:01:00. > :01:08.market and scraps EU free movement rules.
:01:09. > :01:12.Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats approve their Leader's call
:01:13. > :01:18.to campaign for a second referendum on any Brexit deal.
:01:19. > :01:21.Tim Farron says he respects the Brexit result but says the public
:01:22. > :01:25.needs more of a say. Protestors in Westminster demand
:01:26. > :01:27.more aid for migrants But the Prime Minister calls
:01:28. > :01:31.for a shake up of international rules on refugees as she heads
:01:32. > :01:33.to New York to discuss Jeremy Corbyn is odds on to reclaim
:01:34. > :01:37.the Labour leadership. He says he wants to extend an olive
:01:38. > :01:40.branch to his critics. But will peace ever reign
:01:41. > :01:49.in the party again? And with us for the whole programme
:01:50. > :01:54.today is the Guardian columnist, First today, the Prime Minister
:01:55. > :01:59.is calling for a shake up Theresa May says countries should
:02:00. > :02:04.enforce a "First Safe Country" rule under which refugees must be
:02:05. > :02:07.settled in the first Such an approach would bar
:02:08. > :02:11.other European countries from allowing migrants to travel
:02:12. > :02:16.on through Europe to Britain. Mrs May is attending a major
:02:17. > :02:19.United Nations summit in New York, which is taking place amid tightened
:02:20. > :02:22.security following a bomb blast Activists have turned Parliament
:02:23. > :02:43.Square into a life jacket graveyard to highlight the damgers
:02:44. > :02:54.for migrants crossing the sea we had a Dublin agreement. If you
:02:55. > :02:57.are going to do it like that, you have to reach agreement as to what
:02:58. > :03:02.then happens to the migrants. The first country they reach will beat
:03:03. > :03:08.Greece or Italy. We cannot rationally say Greece and Italy have
:03:09. > :03:13.to take everybody. There is no basis in fairness, in reason, in anything
:03:14. > :03:21.to make a rule like that. Is the principal bright in terms of basic
:03:22. > :03:25.thrust? It is an administrative layer for a compromise agreement.
:03:26. > :03:30.The administrative layer where afterwards countries will negotiate
:03:31. > :03:34.about who goes where. The UNHCR still has hotspots where people in
:03:35. > :03:38.dire need will be distributed to a country, depending on where they
:03:39. > :03:47.have existing family, where their skills are needed, that kind of
:03:48. > :03:52.thing. You get a hot spot in Lesbos. All people in Syria will be sent to
:03:53. > :03:55.that hotspot. That system works well but it only works well if countries
:03:56. > :04:00.are cooperating and they are taking their fair share of refugees. Do you
:04:01. > :04:04.think it was because the focus was on Greece and Italy for many of the
:04:05. > :04:09.migrants and refugees who are coming from the Middle East or Africa?
:04:10. > :04:13.There are other parts of the world that could perform that duty. Many
:04:14. > :04:19.of the migrants fleeing Iraq could not necessarily be hitting those
:04:20. > :04:23.countries first, but others. That is a dead duck, that argument. Already,
:04:24. > :04:27.if you look at the number of refugees Europe has taken compared
:04:28. > :04:31.with the rest of the world, it is minuscule. Africa has taken a huge
:04:32. > :04:35.number of refugees. The Middle East is taking a huge number of refugees.
:04:36. > :04:40.They are taking millions and millions of people every year. What
:04:41. > :04:44.we are saying is, we're basically having a tacit situation at the
:04:45. > :04:49.moment where we are allowing countries without economic resources
:04:50. > :04:55.to bear a huge amount of the burden. We are not stepping in at all. She's
:04:56. > :04:58.also an argument we need to distinguish even more forcefully the
:04:59. > :05:03.difference between economic migrants. Those seeking a better
:05:04. > :05:08.life, and those genuinely seeking persecution. Let's take the example
:05:09. > :05:11.of Syrian refugees. It would increase public sympathy and public
:05:12. > :05:17.support for the genuine refugees. Does she have a point? This is a
:05:18. > :05:24.rhetorical switch on her part. The point is, we already have in place
:05:25. > :05:32.differences between genuine asylum seekers and economic migrants.
:05:33. > :05:36.Passage is so dangerous by vote. It is perilous. If you're talking back
:05:37. > :05:39.economic migrants in that situation when you're talking about people
:05:40. > :05:45.getting onto a vote rather than face starvation. That is probably as
:05:46. > :05:50.legitimate to leaving rather than facing prosecution. In Lesbos, the
:05:51. > :05:54.word had gone around among refugees that people were taking Syrians and
:05:55. > :06:01.not Afghans. The Afghans, when they came in, would pretend to be Syrian,
:06:02. > :06:05.or... A guy showed me his bullet wounds he was so frightened of being
:06:06. > :06:09.thought and economic migrant that he had to show the kind of physical
:06:10. > :06:14.torture he had had at the hands of the Taliban, as it happened. This is
:06:15. > :06:19.appalling. It is so inhuman that people arrive and think that is not
:06:20. > :06:22.what we need, to see actual wounds before we respond to them as human
:06:23. > :06:25.beings for the bid is really appalling but when you look at the
:06:26. > :06:30.wording of the refugee Convention and deactivate -- aspirations we had
:06:31. > :06:36.to help and how far we are falling short of it, it is extraordinary.
:06:37. > :06:38.Now, do you like your Brexit hard or soft?
:06:39. > :06:40.It's the question on everyone's lips.
:06:41. > :06:42.Well, it is in this studio at any rate.
:06:43. > :06:44.In the absence of any concrete details about which tack
:06:45. > :06:47.the Government will take when it comes to negotiating our exit
:06:48. > :06:49.from the EU and the nature of our relationship after that,
:06:50. > :06:52.two broadly competing visions are beginning to emerge.
:06:53. > :06:54.A new campaign group, Leave Means Leave, are calling
:06:55. > :06:58.for a hard Brexit, cluding leaving the single market and ending
:06:59. > :07:07.The group includes a number of leading Conservative
:07:08. > :07:09.Eurosceptics, such as former Justice Minister Dominic Raab
:07:10. > :07:11.and former Environment Secretary Owen Paterson.
:07:12. > :07:13.Leave Means Leave say that remaining in the single market
:07:14. > :07:16.will pull our political and economic focus towards the world's
:07:17. > :07:23.On the other side, Open Britain, the successor to the
:07:24. > :07:28.Stronger In campaign, are calling for the UK to remain
:07:29. > :07:34.They also want to mend not end free movement,
:07:35. > :07:38.with an EU-wide debate on how the system works.
:07:39. > :07:41.Speaking for Open Britain, Tory MP Anna Soubry said leaving
:07:42. > :07:47.the EU without a trade deal was the biggest
:07:48. > :07:51.Debates around what Brexit might look like are taking place
:07:52. > :07:53.as the head of Germany's central bank Jens Weidman warned
:07:54. > :07:55.that Britain's banks would lose their passport rights
:07:56. > :08:04.These allow firms to operate across the EU without separate licenses.
:08:05. > :08:06.We're joined now by the Deputy Editor of
:08:07. > :08:19.Welcome to the Daily Politics. The Bundesbank president has said the
:08:20. > :08:24.city will suffer if the UK leads the single market. Is he right? It
:08:25. > :08:30.depends. That's not forget, for a start, all these people are actors
:08:31. > :08:33.in a political struggle. They are about to enter negotiations and
:08:34. > :08:38.everyone is trying to depict a set of threats to try to modify the
:08:39. > :08:42.outcome. It is important for the city to have access, trading access,
:08:43. > :08:46.to the single market. There is more than one way to achieve that, one
:08:47. > :08:51.way through passport images what he is referring to. That is licensed to
:08:52. > :08:55.sell financial services to the rest of the EU. There is another
:08:56. > :09:00.alternative, equivalence, and maybe a third way. We do know what the
:09:01. > :09:04.actual legal possible it is that currently exist are at the moment.
:09:05. > :09:08.He is right in one respect. The city could lose out from all of this.
:09:09. > :09:14.That is why negotiators have to be very careful. They need to be
:09:15. > :09:20.careful to maintain trade access and financial services. You are saying
:09:21. > :09:28.in a sense he is right? I am not saying that. I am saying there is a
:09:29. > :09:34.Brexit -- a danger that Brexit needs to begin ducted in the correct way.
:09:35. > :09:41.Are the passport rights tied to the single market? Yes, in a sense if
:09:42. > :09:48.you want current passport in mechanism you need to be part of the
:09:49. > :09:52.EIA. That is under the current system. On the other hand, they are
:09:53. > :09:56.moving towards a system that third-party countries could have a
:09:57. > :10:00.form of passport ink in the next couple of years. That may avoid the
:10:01. > :10:07.need to be part of the single market. That is why these things are
:10:08. > :10:11.uncertain. The City needs to put its own perspective on theirs. We need
:10:12. > :10:16.to know exactly what they think the options are that would allow them to
:10:17. > :10:20.have access. I think we should not listen to much to the people like
:10:21. > :10:26.the Bundesbank who are trying to put the most negative gloss on all of
:10:27. > :10:32.this. That is true. He has a vested interest in wanting to see banks and
:10:33. > :10:34.other operations leading London and going to Frankfurt. As you said that
:10:35. > :10:43.there needs to be a new negotiation full as it stands at the moment, the
:10:44. > :10:48.City's sporting rights would be lost. We could have something else
:10:49. > :10:57.called equivalence, which may be identical. We do not know because it
:10:58. > :11:01.has not been tested yet. This may largely be a non-issue but we are
:11:02. > :11:05.not sure yet. This is a reason why it all of this is quite complicated.
:11:06. > :11:15.It is very important we stuck to hear more from the Government about
:11:16. > :11:19.how exactly they want to continue with these negotiations. There will
:11:20. > :11:27.be costs and benefits to any benefit. The Government's job is to
:11:28. > :11:31.maximise the benefits and reduce the downsides. If the Bundesbank
:11:32. > :11:35.president is saying banks will be stripped of their ability to conduct
:11:36. > :11:42.business across... He does not know that. That is what he is saying. The
:11:43. > :11:45.have established he has a vested interest. If he is saying that, and
:11:46. > :11:52.he will be considered by banks as someone to listen to. Isn't that the
:11:53. > :11:56.risk that, in this interim period, banks relocate some of the
:11:57. > :12:01.affiliated operations elsewhere? There is a risk. What is happening
:12:02. > :12:12.at the moment seems to be the asked DUP offices in Ireland and
:12:13. > :12:18.Luxembourg, smallish offices. -- scooping. They may have signed
:12:19. > :12:22.leases, we do not know that yet. That may be sufficient to stay in
:12:23. > :12:26.London and continue to operate across the EU. We do not know if
:12:27. > :12:31.they could be brass plated offices. That is a possibility. It is true
:12:32. > :12:34.the banks are very nervous. It is true that corporate Britain remains
:12:35. > :12:39.quite nervous, quite a lot less nervous than it was in the immediate
:12:40. > :12:43.aftermath of the referendum. Confidence has come back largely. A
:12:44. > :12:46.lot of people are nervous about as white as important for the
:12:47. > :12:51.Government to be more explicit the way they want to go in all of this.
:12:52. > :12:53.To discuss this further, I'm joined by the Labour MP
:12:54. > :12:55.Chuka Umunna who's backing the Open Britain campaign
:12:56. > :12:57.group and the Conservative MP and former Defence Minister
:12:58. > :13:01.Gerald Howarth who is backing Leave Means Leave.
:13:02. > :13:11.Gerald, what exactly in your mind is hard Brexit? Hard Brexit is a term
:13:12. > :13:16.which you in the media have streamed up. Essentially, what is at issue
:13:17. > :13:22.here, those who feel it will need to take a long time in order to take
:13:23. > :13:27.every box, to cross every tee and. Every eye, and those of us who
:13:28. > :13:32.believe we need to accelerate this process and ensure that certainly by
:13:33. > :13:39.the timetable set by the Prime Minister, namely the beginning of
:13:40. > :13:43.next year, the United Kingdom activates Article 53 begin the
:13:44. > :13:50.two-year process of exiting. You want to leave the EU as soon as
:13:51. > :13:53.possible, without having secured any sort of deal with the European Union
:13:54. > :14:00.in terms of whether or not we remain part of the single market? Well,
:14:01. > :14:07.there is a legal issue here, which Liam Fox has referred to. Namely
:14:08. > :14:12.that we aren't debarred from negotiating trade deals with anybody
:14:13. > :14:17.else until such time as we have left the European union. What we are
:14:18. > :14:23.trying to do is get as much agreement as we can before we invoke
:14:24. > :14:30.Article 57 know where any difficulties will lie between us and
:14:31. > :14:34.our European friends. -- 50, so we know. Many of us in Parliament are
:14:35. > :14:37.under pressure from constituents saying, we voted to leave the
:14:38. > :14:41.European Union and we want to see action happening. The Government
:14:42. > :14:45.cannot just activate it because there were no plans by the previous
:14:46. > :14:52.government in place when we voted on the 23rd of June. What do you say to
:14:53. > :14:58.that? A speedy process is what the majority of people voted for. A
:14:59. > :15:07.quick X it from the EU. It would be foolish to rush to invoke Article
:15:08. > :15:13.50. I am not saying we should take as long as we possibly can but
:15:14. > :15:17.people massively underestimate the gargantuan task involved. It is not
:15:18. > :15:19.just about invoking Article 50, which starts the two-year
:15:20. > :15:23.negotiation process for our withdrawal. It is question are
:15:24. > :15:29.making all the legislative changes to give effect to that. The 1972
:15:30. > :15:34.European Community 's act... That can be done in a day. You can
:15:35. > :15:38.overturn it. You make it sound easy but Gerald and I have done the whole
:15:39. > :15:41.thing we have legislation ping-pong in between the two Houses of
:15:42. > :15:45.Parliament. It takes a long time and is an important piece of
:15:46. > :15:49.legislation. There are lots of other pieces of legislation. If you look
:15:50. > :15:54.in the field of employment rights, there are number of rights at work
:15:55. > :16:01.that people have, your right to paid time off. That is once the act has
:16:02. > :16:04.been repealed. Let's give the a few steps. Sign up you will need UK
:16:05. > :16:07.legislation to plug the gaps. Practically speaking, as fast as
:16:08. > :16:12.people would like to do this guy it will take some time.
:16:13. > :16:18.The broad differences whether we remain a member of the single
:16:19. > :16:21.market. You are pushing for us to remain a member of the single market
:16:22. > :16:26.and you are pushing for free movement, but that is no different
:16:27. > :16:32.to being in the EU. I have that I think Theresa May should be
:16:33. > :16:37.ambitious and she should prove leave and remain campaign is wrong. Her
:16:38. > :16:40.ambition, yes, we should stay a member of the single market while
:16:41. > :16:51.respecting people's voice which was expressed away the -- around the way
:16:52. > :16:54.free movement operates. I think we can stay members of the single
:16:55. > :16:59.market and getting the reform to live with the immigration changes
:17:00. > :17:02.that come with that. Is that desirable, to stay a member of the
:17:03. > :17:05.single market and keep the benefits that come with that if we can in
:17:06. > :17:12.some way amend the freedom of movement? When people talk about the
:17:13. > :17:16.single market, what they are talking about is essentially the European
:17:17. > :17:22.single market, under which you accept free movement of people, and
:17:23. > :17:26.you accept, lock stock and barrel, right across industry and commerce,
:17:27. > :17:30.all the rules applied by the European Union. What we are looking
:17:31. > :17:35.for is a free trade agreement, like the rest of the world has got. The
:17:36. > :17:40.idea that you have got to have free movement of people, that you have
:17:41. > :17:43.got to accept these rules and regulations, is absurd. United
:17:44. > :17:51.States and China are not members of the single market and yet they trade
:17:52. > :17:57.with the EU. Can I pick up on the point Gerald is making? What I am
:17:58. > :18:00.saying, Gerald, is let the Prime Minister aim to maintain access to
:18:01. > :18:04.the single market and not have the free movement in the form we have at
:18:05. > :18:08.the moment. She can argue to the Germans, who have a general election
:18:09. > :18:14.next year, and the French next year, and in Italy the year after, look,
:18:15. > :18:17.you have the same debate around the way free movement operates, whether
:18:18. > :18:21.it is fair to people and whether it helps the labour market or not. They
:18:22. > :18:25.are going to have that debate as well so I think she has a big moment
:18:26. > :18:29.here where she can do what no other European leader has achieved. And it
:18:30. > :18:39.is not just a question of tariff free trade. What you get for your
:18:40. > :18:42.membership of the market our rights and protections, and by being a
:18:43. > :18:51.member of it we can impact on those rules. Go on? You are quite right,
:18:52. > :18:56.of course, we have a block of EU legislation, a huge amount of EU
:18:57. > :19:00.legislation, which you and I know is passed more or less tick box by
:19:01. > :19:03.Parliament because it has been decided in Brussels and the European
:19:04. > :19:08.Parliament, so we have got to accept it lock stock and barrel. When we
:19:09. > :19:12.leave, all we need to do is accept every bit of EU legislation that is
:19:13. > :19:17.already on the statute book. Legislation applying to employee
:19:18. > :19:21.rights and to the environment. We accept all that. And then if a
:19:22. > :19:27.future government decides in the UK that we want to unpick some of it,
:19:28. > :19:31.we want to change it to meet our own circumstances in the UK, then we can
:19:32. > :19:34.do that over a period of time through our own sovereign
:19:35. > :19:37.Parliament, which is the people do not like it, they can remove it and
:19:38. > :19:41.change the government of this country, which at the moment you
:19:42. > :19:49.cannot do. We have just had the discussion with Allister Heath and
:19:50. > :19:51.you have heard the comments from the Bundesbank President that London
:19:52. > :19:54.banks will automatically lose their right to passport across the EU if
:19:55. > :20:00.Britain leaves the single market. Do you not think that is a negative
:20:01. > :20:04.consequence? That is a matter for negotiation. As I understand it,
:20:05. > :20:08.many of the banks have already got brass plates in other European
:20:09. > :20:13.countries. I think the international financial community will vote very
:20:14. > :20:19.firmly that Britain is a great place in which to be based, and they will
:20:20. > :20:23.want the government of Germany, to which the Bundesbank is answerable,
:20:24. > :20:28.they will want that government to make sure that this is accommodated.
:20:29. > :20:35.But this will be up for negotiation. Why should they accommodate it?
:20:36. > :20:38.Because I think there will be an enormous amount of pressure on them
:20:39. > :20:42.so to do because otherwise we get into the business of retaliation.
:20:43. > :20:45.Germany exports hundreds of thousands of cars to the United
:20:46. > :20:54.Kingdom and we also export for example Minis from BMW from the UK
:20:55. > :20:58.to the continent. We don't want to get into a trade war and the reason
:20:59. > :21:03.we don't want to and they don't want to get into a trade war is because
:21:04. > :21:08.they export ?70 billion more to us than we export to them. They would
:21:09. > :21:13.be cutting off their own noses to spite their faces. Is it possible,
:21:14. > :21:18.really, realistically, to have access, to be a member of the single
:21:19. > :21:24.market and in some way amend freedom of movement? There are so many
:21:25. > :21:29.strange coming that I cannot even process them! The idea that because
:21:30. > :21:32.people buy BMWs means people will not do anything punitive to our
:21:33. > :21:36.banks is ridiculous. Then we would be talking about a mass boycott
:21:37. > :21:40.among citizens to boycott cars so that the banks survive. I don't
:21:41. > :21:44.think half of the people who voted Leave would do that for the banks.
:21:45. > :21:49.But it is tit-for-tat. They don't want to do anything that would
:21:50. > :22:00.provoke retaliation for us. But the point is we can't retaliate, except
:22:01. > :22:03.as consumers. We have very little leverage. The idea that the consumer
:22:04. > :22:05.power would offset the weakness of our hand at the negotiating table is
:22:06. > :22:07.preposterous. It is not consumer power, it is governments dealing
:22:08. > :22:13.with it, and the British government will not sacrifice the City. I think
:22:14. > :22:25.the point that Zoe is making... Hang on! They are a much bigger customer
:22:26. > :22:30.to us. 47% of goods go to them, than we are to them. So Zoe is right.
:22:31. > :22:34.Don't be cavalier about the importance of the single market. The
:22:35. > :22:38.Japanese government has companies that employ 140,000 people and they
:22:39. > :22:43.say maintaining membership of the single market is crucial for those
:22:44. > :22:44.jobs. It is jobs we are talking about, people's livelihoods. Thank
:22:45. > :22:46.you very much. Now, while we're on the subject
:22:47. > :22:49.of Brexit, the Liberal Democrats have voted in favour of holding
:22:50. > :22:52.a referendum on any eventual deal the Government comes forward
:22:53. > :22:55.with on the withdrawal of the UK The party's leader Tim Farron says
:22:56. > :23:02.a further referendum is vital, but are all party supporters
:23:03. > :23:04.behind their leader on this one or do they think
:23:05. > :23:06.the public has spoken? We sent Adam down to Brighton
:23:07. > :23:15.to test the mood at conference. Welcome to the first mood box of the
:23:16. > :23:20.Lib Dem party conference in Brighton. Today we are going to ask
:23:21. > :23:29.about the EU referendum. Is it done or should we have another one?
:23:30. > :23:35.Yes, I think there needs to be another referendum simply because we
:23:36. > :23:39.don't know what kind of Brexit people voted for. Have another one.
:23:40. > :23:43.We have got to accept the democratic decisions are just get on with it.
:23:44. > :23:47.It is done. The government are refusing to tell us what Brexit
:23:48. > :23:53.actually mean that when they do I think the public should have a say.
:23:54. > :23:57.So another one. People have made their decisions and the Liberal
:23:58. > :24:05.Democrats need to accept that. This is better than the Tim Farron Q and
:24:06. > :24:11.A. EU referendum, have another one? Another one, but it have to be a
:24:12. > :24:15.different one, on the terms of exit. Should people just get real? I think
:24:16. > :24:21.we need the best deal possible but we don't need another referendum. It
:24:22. > :24:25.should be another different one. She has taken a long time to think about
:24:26. > :24:33.it but luckily she has a couple of years before it becomes an issue.
:24:34. > :24:42.What does it mean? Have another EU referendum or it is done? Well, it
:24:43. > :24:47.is not a yes - no situation. We will have trouble if we don't have
:24:48. > :24:56.another one because Brexit is bad. Did your dad tell you to say that?
:24:57. > :24:59.No! You are squeezing that ball! I feel very strongly. We don't know
:25:00. > :25:04.what the deal is. We didn't know before the referendum and we don't
:25:05. > :25:08.know now. Cockroaches are the only things that survive. The Lib Dems
:25:09. > :25:13.are cockroaches because we would survive.
:25:14. > :25:21.Virtual reality comes to the Lib Dem conference. I am actually putting it
:25:22. > :25:29.into that one, which says it is done, because clearly the electorate
:25:30. > :25:33.has spoken. Are you still there? The British public will decide whether
:25:34. > :25:37.we should stay in the EU or not. They already have. No, they have
:25:38. > :25:41.decided they want the government to negotiate a Brexit deal and we will
:25:42. > :25:47.see what the deal is. My biggest fear is that Nick Clegg is standing
:25:48. > :25:49.there making a funny face at me! You are not an MP any more, you can say
:25:50. > :26:04.whatever you want! Well, you can't get much more
:26:05. > :26:09.conclusive than that. And an absolutely huge majority of Lib Dems
:26:10. > :26:11.want another referendum, but not the old one again, different one. Fairly
:26:12. > :26:15.emphatic there. Earlier I spoke to the Lib Dem
:26:16. > :26:19.Leader, Tim Farron, in Brighton. Vince Cable, the party's
:26:20. > :26:21.former Deputy Leader, says a second referendum isn't
:26:22. > :26:23.a panacea to anything. We are in a hideous mess
:26:24. > :26:27.as a country at the moment. The referendum result in June,
:26:28. > :26:29.which I fully respect, The relationship with the single
:26:30. > :26:35.market, with a package that involves some form of free movement
:26:36. > :26:38.for British people overseas and vice versa, relationship
:26:39. > :26:41.with the police forces We don't know what deal
:26:42. > :26:48.is going to be imposed on the British people,
:26:49. > :26:52.and imposed is the key word. We began this process with democracy
:26:53. > :26:54.in June, and it looks like we're going to end
:26:55. > :26:57.up with a stitch-up, with Theresa May, David Davis,
:26:58. > :26:59.and Brussels bureaucrats, between them, in an enclosed space,
:27:00. > :27:01.coming up with a plan The only way to finish this job
:27:02. > :27:08.properly is to give the people their say
:27:09. > :27:10.and let them take control. You say you respect the outcome
:27:11. > :27:13.of the first referendum but, listening to you there,
:27:14. > :27:15.it looks like you are looking for a way to kill
:27:16. > :27:17.the first referendum. You let the cat out of the bag
:27:18. > :27:20.to some extent yesterday when you said a further, or second,
:27:21. > :27:23.referendum was the best Of course I have not
:27:24. > :27:30.changed my views or my principles. There are people who blow
:27:31. > :27:33.with the wind when a vote I utterly respect the result
:27:34. > :27:37.and the many people, We are looking at something
:27:38. > :27:49.which is beyond the 23rd June and something which I think
:27:50. > :27:52.people of all persuasions, politically and in terms
:27:53. > :27:54.of the referendum just it would be utterly despicable
:27:55. > :27:59.for this Conservative government to impose on the British people
:28:00. > :28:03.a deal that nobody voted for. Let's assume you were a business
:28:04. > :28:06.person in London, or here in Brighton, or up in the Lakes,
:28:07. > :28:10.in my neck of the woods, who voted to leave because you didn't
:28:11. > :28:13.like the EU but you wanted, you assumed, because you were told
:28:14. > :28:16.this would be so, you would be And suddenly you end up
:28:17. > :28:20.with tariffs on your exports, tariffs on what you are having
:28:21. > :28:23.to import, and you're Those people deserve the right
:28:24. > :28:27.to vote on the deal, It is nobody's fault,
:28:28. > :28:32.other than the Conservative government, I should say,
:28:33. > :28:34.that there was utter lack of clarity over what would happen
:28:35. > :28:37.if we were to leave. I don't blame
:28:38. > :28:39.the 52% but I blame David Cameron, George Osborne and Theresa May
:28:40. > :28:46.for there being no clarity. But now we are in this situation,
:28:47. > :28:49.a deal is going to be stitched up, and that deal must not just be
:28:50. > :28:53.a matter for British politicians in Whitehall and civil servants
:28:54. > :28:55.and indeed Brussels bureaucrats. You are saying a deal
:28:56. > :28:59.will be stitched up. There is no sign of it
:29:00. > :29:01.being stitched up. It was the case that people said
:29:02. > :29:04.they wanted to leave Will mean
:29:05. > :29:13.leaving the single market too. You used to campaign
:29:14. > :29:15.for an in/out referendum. Now we've had it, you seem
:29:16. > :29:18.to want to reverse it, or at least to tell people what sort
:29:19. > :29:20.of new relationship That doesn't sound very
:29:21. > :29:23.liberal or democratic. No, it's exactly
:29:24. > :29:26.liberal and democratic. What is undemocratic is the thought
:29:27. > :29:29.that this government can make assumptions as to
:29:30. > :29:30.what the 52% meant. You're making assumptions
:29:31. > :29:33.about what they meant. I am saying the British people,
:29:34. > :29:40.52% of them, voted to leave. What's not clear, and it's
:29:41. > :29:46.not their fault it's not clear, that we don't know what
:29:47. > :29:48.we're going to do next. We don't know what the plan is,
:29:49. > :29:52.you don't know what the plan is, the British people don't
:29:53. > :29:55.know what the plan is. I am really strongly suspecting
:29:56. > :29:57.that Theresa May doesn't Given that 52% of people voted
:29:58. > :30:01.to leave, and the assumption that you made that they all wanted
:30:02. > :30:04.to leave the single market, I didn't say all, I said some people
:30:05. > :30:08.might want to leave the Some people voted because they
:30:09. > :30:16.wanted to control migration. Some people voted because they just
:30:17. > :30:19.didn't like the EU and thought Some people voted because they
:30:20. > :30:23.didn't like the single market. Others thought, leaving the EU
:30:24. > :30:26.is one thing but being able to trade with Europe freely without tax
:30:27. > :30:28.or tariffs, which was one of the things promised
:30:29. > :30:37.by the League campaign, -- the Leave campaign,
:30:38. > :30:40.is something that lots of people who voted to leave
:30:41. > :30:42.believed was the case. How on earth can it be
:30:43. > :30:45.right and democratic for our Conservative government,
:30:46. > :30:47.in its botched and messy renegotiation at the moment,
:30:48. > :30:50.how can it be right for them to come back to the British people,
:30:51. > :30:52.after we started with democracy in June, and end up with a stitch-up
:30:53. > :30:56.when a deal is imposed on the British people,
:30:57. > :30:58.that not the 48%, nor That is a recipe for a complete
:30:59. > :31:02.breakdown in trust in politics. One of the big problems
:31:03. > :31:04.for you is you haven't really got much of a voice in terms
:31:05. > :31:07.of your size or in terms Nick Clegg, the former Leader,
:31:08. > :31:12.thinks what would help would be a realignment of the centre-left
:31:13. > :31:14.in a pro-EU common cause. I think some form of realignment
:31:15. > :31:21.is an interesting prospect. Who knows what might happen over
:31:22. > :31:27.the next few months and years? We are looking at a Conservative
:31:28. > :31:31.government which has no Why don't you link up
:31:32. > :31:37.with other left parties? I think it is very clear that
:31:38. > :31:41.even if you are a Conservative supporter, you probably think
:31:42. > :31:44.it is utterly terrible for Britain Given the Labour Party has chosen
:31:45. > :31:51.this backwater, this infighting, to go away from the serious business
:31:52. > :31:53.of trying to win power, thinking power is a dirty
:31:54. > :31:56.word, when it is not. It's the way you change people's
:31:57. > :31:59.lives and make a difference. That means only the Liberal
:32:00. > :32:01.Democrats across the whole of the United Kingdom stand up
:32:02. > :32:03.against the Conservatives. When you talk about realignment,
:32:04. > :32:07.I believe there are liberals in the Conservative Party appalled
:32:08. > :32:11.by what is going on over Brexit and the absolute disastrous
:32:12. > :32:14.lack of plan there is for our Even more there are liberals
:32:15. > :32:20.in the Labour Party who believe that winning power is a key ingredient
:32:21. > :32:23.to making a difference to people's lives, saving the NHS
:32:24. > :32:27.protecting our schools, making sure we have enough police
:32:28. > :32:29.on our streets. Winning power helps you to do
:32:30. > :32:31.those things. Those liberals
:32:32. > :32:32.in the Labour Party, I utterly respect your loyalty,
:32:33. > :32:37.loyalty is an absolute virtue, but what would be more
:32:38. > :32:39.of a virtue at a time like this would be to join us
:32:40. > :32:42.in standing up against the Conservatives, so we can win
:32:43. > :32:45.for the people of Britain who need and the Liberal Democrats will be
:32:46. > :32:49.that decent opposition. Will you work closely
:32:50. > :32:51.with Jeremy Corbyn to try I think Jeremy Corbyn is the kind
:32:52. > :32:55.of person who does not During the referendum,
:32:56. > :32:59.I reached out to him on more than one occasion to share
:33:00. > :33:01.a platform with him, as I did with Gordon Brown,
:33:02. > :33:03.David Cameron and others. On a personal level,
:33:04. > :33:09.I like Jeremy Corbyn. His agenda, and the faction
:33:10. > :33:13.he is surrounded with, the momentum that has taken
:33:14. > :33:16.over the Labour Party, The one thing they will not
:33:17. > :33:21.want to do is to work with anybody. That is a real shame but I can't do
:33:22. > :33:24.anything about that. What I can do
:33:25. > :33:27.something about is building a decent opposition that holds this
:33:28. > :33:29.Conservative government to account. Like I say, there are many decent
:33:30. > :33:32.minded people around the country, some of whom vote Conservative,
:33:33. > :33:35.and even they will think it is bad for Britain there is no proper
:33:36. > :33:54.opposition and the Liberal Democrats So, the 48% that voted to remain,
:33:55. > :34:00.has Tim Farron got any swell up public support for a second
:34:01. > :34:04.referendum on the Brexit deal? There is a huge amount of pomposity around
:34:05. > :34:08.this issue. You say the British people voted on something which was
:34:09. > :34:11.much to compensated to have a simple yes, no answer. Nobody has the
:34:12. > :34:16.mandate to deliver a deal which nobody put honestly on the table in
:34:17. > :34:22.the beginning. It was a simple question. Yes, about a very complex
:34:23. > :34:29.issue. The question was deceitful. There was nothing simple about it.
:34:30. > :34:36.Does it mean trade deals, immigration? Does it mean we do not
:34:37. > :34:42.have red tape? Do you think people want a referendum? The people who
:34:43. > :34:47.won do not want one and those who lost do. He is saying that some of
:34:48. > :34:52.the people who voted to leave the EU want a second referendum in terms of
:34:53. > :34:59.the deal. That is impossible to answer. 7% of the people who voted
:35:00. > :35:03.leave had regret afterwards. Three people who voted remain also
:35:04. > :35:07.regretted voting remain, even though they lost anyway. We need to park
:35:08. > :35:12.those opinions and just concentrate on the fact it was not a resounding
:35:13. > :35:17.victory. It couldn't really have been much closer, unless it was 49/
:35:18. > :35:22.51. Half the country are blundering into a deal with the other half
:35:23. > :35:26.standing there, saying, this is appalling, it is an act of
:35:27. > :35:31.vandalism. I do not think calling for a second referendum on the terms
:35:32. > :35:34.of the deal is unreasonable. I do not think we will get one.
:35:35. > :35:37.Westminster is in recess for the next couple of weeks
:35:38. > :35:39.as the main parties hold their conferences.
:35:40. > :35:41.But that doesn't mean politics grinds to a halt.
:35:42. > :35:43.So what else is happening over the next week?
:35:44. > :35:45.As we've been hearing, Theresa May will be arriving
:35:46. > :35:48.in New York this afternoon ahead of her first speech to the United
:35:49. > :35:52.On Tuesday, the Liberal Democrat Leader Tim Farron will be
:35:53. > :35:55.making his big speech to the party's annual conference.
:35:56. > :35:58.On Wednesday, ballots closes in the Labour leadership contest
:35:59. > :36:00.between Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith.
:36:01. > :36:03.The House of Commons is in recess, so there is no
:36:04. > :36:08.But Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson will be going head-to-head
:36:09. > :36:10.at First Ministers Question in the Scottish Parliament
:36:11. > :36:15.And eyes will turn to Liverpool on Saturday, where the result
:36:16. > :36:19.of the Labour Party leadership race will be announced.
:36:20. > :36:22.Joining us now are Martha Gill from the Huffington Post
:36:23. > :36:27.and the Daily Telegraph's Christopher Hope.
:36:28. > :36:35.Welcome to both of you. Christopher Hope, first of all, Lib Dem fight
:36:36. > :36:39.back. Any evidence? 18,000 new members, a few seats in the West
:36:40. > :36:44.Country council level. It has started but from a very low base.
:36:45. > :36:47.They are about the same size as the Democratic Unionist Party in
:36:48. > :36:51.Westminster, virtually irrelevant in terms of voting numbers. It is a
:36:52. > :36:55.long crawl. No surprise Nick Clegg is calling for another coalition.
:36:56. > :37:01.That is the best chance they have. What do you think there are chances
:37:02. > :37:06.wise of some sort of progressive left Alliance? They are keeping it
:37:07. > :37:10.quiet for now, for obvious reasons. I am not ruling anything out. There
:37:11. > :37:13.is a huge space in the centre that has opened up which the Lib Dems
:37:14. > :37:20.could well take advantage. Whether they do that along with some others
:37:21. > :37:23.the question. In terms of Brexit, Christopher Hope, looking at Theresa
:37:24. > :37:27.May and the honeymoon, if there ever was much of a honeymoon for her, do
:37:28. > :37:34.think it will get quite difficult for her in terms of backbenchers? I
:37:35. > :37:38.think so. This new campaign group launching today looking for a hard
:37:39. > :37:44.Brexit is most brides. Towards the first quarter next year, Britain
:37:45. > :37:48.needs to get on with serious talks. -- is no surprise. By Easter next
:37:49. > :37:53.year, there will be some real problems. They cannot say Brexit
:37:54. > :37:58.means Brexit was that it is like saying, cheese means cheese. It does
:37:59. > :38:03.not last for ever. Theresa May is going in on freedom of movement. We
:38:04. > :38:08.need to see more of what Brexit really means. Have you sensed any
:38:09. > :38:12.great unrest among Tory backbenchers? Are they still giving
:38:13. > :38:17.Theresa May the benefit of the doubt and enough time for her to formulate
:38:18. > :38:22.proper policies around negotiations? As Nicky Morgan said this weekend,
:38:23. > :38:26.when there is a vacuum, people will fill it. That has been filled not
:38:27. > :38:30.only from her backbenchers but also by prominent figures in the youth
:38:31. > :38:38.who are starting to really play hardball about Brexit negotiations.
:38:39. > :38:43.-- in the EU. Death they may want to protect other countries are not
:38:44. > :38:47.Britain. -- just saying they want to protect. It may be time for trees
:38:48. > :38:54.are made to say what Brexit really means. Christopher, do you have
:38:55. > :38:57.names of any Labour MPs who voted for no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn
:38:58. > :39:01.but who might now contemplate a return to the front bench? There
:39:02. > :39:10.were names around the weekend like Kia Starmer and respected figures
:39:11. > :39:14.from the recent part of Labour. Kier. In the old days clash at
:39:15. > :39:18.Cabinet responsibility meant you could stand up to most Labour
:39:19. > :39:22.policies if you are a moderate Labour politician. Given what may be
:39:23. > :39:26.coming out of Labour in the future, these people will not want to go
:39:27. > :39:31.into the Shadow Cabinet and defend what they may find indefensible.
:39:32. > :39:34.They do not know what to do. They want to help bring Labour back to
:39:35. > :39:40.the middle ground but can they sign up to some of these policies? It is
:39:41. > :39:43.difficult. The olive branch which Jeremy Corbyn is presenting two
:39:44. > :39:50.Labour MPs who have been critical of him, is there a sense it is genuine?
:39:51. > :39:56.Well, I think a lot of people find it a bit questionable. Also, there
:39:57. > :40:02.are rumours of a widescale power grab by Jeremy Corbyn. More policy
:40:03. > :40:07.decision ability from members. The sort of veiled threats to deselect
:40:08. > :40:14.troublesome MPs. This is something which is going to make the PLP
:40:15. > :40:19.furious. There is also an argument it might actually unite the party in
:40:20. > :40:22.some way. Some of them have been so disillusioned they are actually
:40:23. > :40:25.backing off and looking for prominent backbench positions,
:40:26. > :40:29.rather than coming back into the Shadow Cabinet. In a way, Jeremy
:40:30. > :40:33.Corbyn might end up with a more supportive PLP in the end. Plenty to
:40:34. > :40:36.chew over. Thank you very much. Now, there's less than 48 hours
:40:37. > :40:39.to go before the polls close The polls suggest Jeremy Corbyn
:40:40. > :40:43.is on course for another victory, but many are asking
:40:44. > :40:45.whether the party can reunite. Some Labour MPs, who have been
:40:46. > :40:48.critical of Mr Corbyn, are fearful that they could be deselected
:40:49. > :40:50.by local party members loyal Here's what the General Secretary
:40:51. > :40:54.of the Unite Union, Len McCluskey - a supporter of Mr Corbyn -
:40:55. > :40:57.told the BBC's John Pienaar for the Panorama programme scheduled
:40:58. > :40:59.to air later this evening. All of the MPs have behaved
:41:00. > :41:01.absolutely despicably They have not shown any respect,
:41:02. > :41:10.whatsoever, to the leader. So, those vocal dissidents,
:41:11. > :41:15.who do not show the respect to the Leader that you describe,
:41:16. > :41:18.when it comes to deselection, they would simply be asking
:41:19. > :41:20.for it, you would say? I think anybody who kind of behaves
:41:21. > :41:24.in a way that is totally disrespectful, and outwit
:41:25. > :41:26.the culture of the Labour Party, is basically asking to be
:41:27. > :41:35.held to account. With me now is Barbara Ntumy
:41:36. > :41:41.from the campaign group, Momentum, which grew out of Jeremy Corbyn's
:41:42. > :41:43.first leadership campaign, and Richard Angell
:41:44. > :41:53.the director of Progress, Welcome to both of you. Richard,
:41:54. > :41:57.first of all. Let's pick up on what Len McCluskey said. Isn't he right
:41:58. > :42:00.that Labour MPs who are openly critical of the leadership of Jeremy
:42:01. > :42:05.Corbyn are asking to be held to account by their local party
:42:06. > :42:09.membership? Len McCluskey was not particularly supportive of some of
:42:10. > :42:12.the Labour leadership. Jeremy Corbyn vote truth to power when he was a
:42:13. > :42:17.backbencher in the Labour Party. This has to be a Broadchurch party.
:42:18. > :42:21.We all need to have different ideas as long as we are constructive in
:42:22. > :42:26.those, that must be important going forward. People have tried to serve
:42:27. > :42:30.on the front bench but have been frustrated time and again, which is
:42:31. > :42:36.what led to the situation when we led the EU. Isn't it the case,
:42:37. > :42:40.Barbara, you would have a monoculture within the Labour Party
:42:41. > :42:43.if everybody thought the same way? It is true that Jeremy Corbyn did
:42:44. > :42:50.not support any of the recent Labour leaders but there were no calls for
:42:51. > :42:54.him to be deselected? Do you understand that if you are not in
:42:55. > :42:57.agreement with the leader, or agree, if you're not in agreement with the
:42:58. > :43:03.leader, you should still have a place? You should still have a place
:43:04. > :43:09.in the party. Doing disruptive purposely at a time when Labour
:43:10. > :43:13.should have been putting forward its planned this recently after the
:43:14. > :43:18.referendum, some of us feel concerned about it. We could be
:43:19. > :43:23.pushing back the Tories and said of having an internal, bitter fight,
:43:24. > :43:28.with people resigning every hour. It was a bit embarrassing. Labour MPs
:43:29. > :43:33.would think to do anything like that. You'd think they should be
:43:34. > :43:36.held to account? Whatever form that comes into people have voted for
:43:37. > :43:42.them and constituents should be able to do that. I don't think it is good
:43:43. > :43:45.for anyone to be deselected. What do you say to that? There is a
:43:46. > :43:54.difference between people having problems with the leader and having
:43:55. > :44:04.mass deselection is. After we left the U, Jeremy Corbyn said we should
:44:05. > :44:14.trigger article 50 straightaway. -- the EU. Somebody who caused a big
:44:15. > :44:19.issue like that, people do not want to think they cannot do the job
:44:20. > :44:22.ahead of them. Where Labour is now, according to Neil Kinnock, he says
:44:23. > :44:26.he will never see a Labour governed again in his lifetime. What do you
:44:27. > :44:31.say? I disagree. Hundreds of thousands of people joined the
:44:32. > :44:37.Labour Party. We're all going to go door knocking. We're trying to speak
:44:38. > :44:44.to the current situation with people having zero hours contracts, who do
:44:45. > :44:48.not have stability in work. We are speaking to community about and that
:44:49. > :44:52.will win us into government. Even though the polls are disastrous? The
:44:53. > :44:56.polls are disastrous because we have had the summer we had. The polls
:44:57. > :45:02.have called it wrong several times. We should not 100% rely on them. The
:45:03. > :45:05.polls are in the favour of Labour. It could be worse than they are now
:45:06. > :45:09.full Jeremy Corbyn was not a head before the Brexit referendum
:45:10. > :45:14.happened. There is a deep problem we have. The problem is, what our
:45:15. > :45:17.momentum waiting for question of the two programmes coming out later
:45:18. > :45:21.show, behind-the-scenes with a not the nice people on the television
:45:22. > :45:26.making the decisions, it is many others. They are prioritised in
:45:27. > :45:31.deselecting many MPs rather than door knocking and winning the
:45:32. > :45:37.election. That is untrue. It is a democratic organisation.
:45:38. > :45:43.Momentum activists went out to campaign for Sadiq Khan, including
:45:44. > :45:49.me and my friends. There is not one priority over the other. Actually we
:45:50. > :45:53.can do both. I don't know who the elected officers are for Saving
:45:54. > :45:58.Labour. We want the Labour Party to be democratic and we want ordinary
:45:59. > :46:03.members to have a say, as opposed to MPs, or even the leader having a
:46:04. > :46:08.direct veto. People are sick and tired of austerity light and we want
:46:09. > :46:13.better. People want alternatives to the government, not just a
:46:14. > :46:17.replacement. Let Richard finishes point. We have got to build a bigger
:46:18. > :46:21.vision and it cannot be about control of the Labour Party. It has
:46:22. > :46:28.got to be winning over the community that left us and that means
:46:29. > :46:34.campaigning all year round, not just street stalls from Momentum and
:46:35. > :46:40.campaigning for Sadiq Khan when the vote comes round. It is campaigning
:46:41. > :46:45.all year. It is a great thing that the Labour Party is bigger and
:46:46. > :46:49.better off than before. Are you loyal to Labour values? They seem to
:46:50. > :46:54.be more loyal to Jeremy Corbyn rather than the party brand, because
:46:55. > :46:57.they have come from the Green Party, the Socialist workers party, maybe
:46:58. > :47:04.the Communist Party, but they are not actually loyal to Labour.
:47:05. > :47:09.Labour's policy is to have a democratic party, which is what most
:47:10. > :47:12.people are. There is a difference as to how that is interpreted with
:47:13. > :47:15.different leaders over the years. All these new members are loyal to
:47:16. > :47:22.Labour because what Labour and the leader stand for things that bring
:47:23. > :47:27.us together as opposed to being like the Tories and not having Labour
:47:28. > :47:35.values. Momentum turns a blind eye when the workers have this Russian
:47:36. > :47:39.doll policy. Momentum controls the left group in the local party, which
:47:40. > :47:43.decides who the delegate is for party conference, that is not
:47:44. > :47:48.tolerable. Do you think piece will break out in the Labour Party? It is
:47:49. > :47:52.very silly. There is a lot of silliness going on here. Everything
:47:53. > :48:02.you are talking about is in the Dispatches programme, I believe. The
:48:03. > :48:05.idea that AWL, that she is some kind of dangerous trot, that is
:48:06. > :48:11.ridiculous. Anybody would recognise her from an 80s Labour Party, any
:48:12. > :48:14.meeting you had ever been to in 1984. There is no dangerous
:48:15. > :48:18.subtraction. There are people who believe in things more tragically
:48:19. > :48:22.than others. Momentum, the guy they have got on the Dispatches
:48:23. > :48:28.programme, apparently from Momentum but isn't actually a member. But can
:48:29. > :48:35.they reunite? If Jeremy Corbyn is handing out an olive branch and you
:48:36. > :48:38.have a Labour MP like Peter Carr who says he is the first person who uses
:48:39. > :48:43.an olive branch as a weapon to beat people with because of the abuse he
:48:44. > :48:47.has had locally from within the Labour Party, does peace have a
:48:48. > :48:51.chance that the Labour? It as if everybody takes the temperature down
:48:52. > :48:54.a bit. You can't look at an army of activists and write them off as
:48:55. > :48:59.revolutionaries and not be interested in them. You have got to
:49:00. > :49:07.be more curious and open about who Momentum are what they want to do.
:49:08. > :49:10.If you are the kind of party that worry so much about whether a Green
:49:11. > :49:17.Party member is true Labour and you cannot accept their membership, then
:49:18. > :49:25.you have got to ask what your values are. Do you think they should stay
:49:26. > :49:29.in their positions? Loads of people like myself and my friends will feel
:49:30. > :49:31.that people who have been told they can't be members of the Labour Party
:49:32. > :49:40.because they might have tweeted about anything else... I think it
:49:41. > :49:43.raises the question. I don't disrespect Tom Watson and I don't
:49:44. > :49:46.think he should go. I think there are issues about the way that people
:49:47. > :49:50.have been treated which need to be looked at. If people cannot act
:49:51. > :49:55.fairly then we need to have a discussion about whether they are
:49:56. > :49:58.there to serve the party or to say this person has tweeted about the
:49:59. > :50:03.Green Party so they could possibly have Labour values and I think that
:50:04. > :50:06.is wrong. Thank you. Theresa May insists government will be
:50:07. > :50:09.remarkably different from David Cameron's that doesn't appear to
:50:10. > :50:19.want an early general election to provide her with a mandate.
:50:20. > :50:22.So does that mean she'll stick by everything in the Conservatives'
:50:23. > :50:24.We've been busy crawling through the promises
:50:25. > :50:27.made by David Cameron, and updated our Manifesto Tracker
:50:28. > :50:28.to check which policies are being pursued.
:50:29. > :50:31.By the magic of television, I will now step into my virtual studio.
:50:32. > :50:33.It's been an eventful period since we launched
:50:34. > :50:38.Britain has voted to leave the EU and a new Prime
:50:39. > :50:40.Minister is in place, but the Conservative Government
:50:41. > :50:45.under Theresa May will still be held to the promises it made ahead
:50:46. > :50:47.of the 2015 general election in their manifesto, and a few other
:50:48. > :50:50.big commitments made during the campaign.
:50:51. > :50:54.And this is how we are keeping track of their progress.
:50:55. > :50:57.We have identified 161 pledges and loaded them into
:50:58. > :51:04.We've grouped them into categories covering all the major areas
:51:05. > :51:09.of Government policy, from the constitution down to welfare.
:51:10. > :51:12.And we have given each of the promises a colour rating.
:51:13. > :51:16.Red means little or no progress so far.
:51:17. > :51:19.Amber means the Government has made some progress.
:51:20. > :51:26.While green is for delivered pledges.
:51:27. > :51:29.Let's start by looking at one here in foreign affairs and defence,
:51:30. > :51:36.The promise to hold a referendum on our EU membership.
:51:37. > :51:39.We have changed that to green, as the Government did deliver
:51:40. > :51:45.in June, even if it didn't get the result it wanted.
:51:46. > :51:49.Many of the promises made while David Cameron was leader
:51:50. > :51:52.were based around what he hoped he could achieve in his
:51:53. > :51:54.renegotiation of our relationship with the EU, particularly
:51:55. > :52:05.The manifesto said that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits
:52:06. > :52:07.and child benefits must live here and contribute
:52:08. > :52:14.The deal offered to David Cameron by the rest of the EU was a much
:52:15. > :52:16.weaker version of the pledge, which, like the rest
:52:17. > :52:19.of the renegotiation, was rejected by the voters
:52:20. > :52:27.So we have given this a red, although it is possible
:52:28. > :52:33.the Government could deliver on it once we have left the EU.
:52:34. > :52:37.The same goes for the promise that if a child of an EU migrant
:52:38. > :52:39.is living abroad, they should receive no child benefit
:52:40. > :52:46.David Cameron's renegotiation failed to secure this policy
:52:47. > :52:49.in full and it would be up to Theresa May's Government if it
:52:50. > :52:54.The vote to leave has had big implications for manifesto
:52:55. > :52:59.commitments in other areas, like here in the economy.
:53:00. > :53:02.One of the central promises made by David Cameron
:53:03. > :53:06.and George Osborne was this one, to eliminate the deficit and start
:53:07. > :53:15.But after the Brexit vote, Theresa May confirmed that
:53:16. > :53:18.while the Government still aims to achieve a budget surplus,
:53:19. > :53:21.it has dropped the target of doing so by the end
:53:22. > :53:29.Now those are some areas where the Government has made little
:53:30. > :53:38.Well, it fought a major battle in Parliament to tighten the rules
:53:39. > :53:45.This promise, which said strike action can only be called
:53:46. > :53:48.when at least half the eligible workforce have voted, is now law,
:53:49. > :53:57.As does this one, meaning that strikes affecting essential public
:53:58. > :54:00.services like health, education, fire and transport,
:54:01. > :54:04.will need the backing of at least 40% of those eligible to vote.
:54:05. > :54:07.We have marked the majority of promises as amber,
:54:08. > :54:13.meaning at least some progress is being made.
:54:14. > :54:19.Here, in welfare, for example, we have got the Government's
:54:20. > :54:21.flagship reform universal credit, which has been rolled out
:54:22. > :54:23.for some job-seekers, although the timetable for full
:54:24. > :54:26.delivery has been pushed back repeatedly and is currently
:54:27. > :54:34.And another here, under the environment.
:54:35. > :54:38.That's the promise to create a so-called bluebelt of protected
:54:39. > :54:42.conservation zones in the water around the UK's coast.
:54:43. > :54:44.That has been given an amber, as the programme still
:54:45. > :54:53.Now let's see how the Government is doing overall.
:54:54. > :54:56.Out of 161 election commitments, the number of commitments we have
:54:57. > :55:06.The number marked amber falls to 90, and the number of green,
:55:07. > :55:11.We will be returning to the Manifesto Tracker again
:55:12. > :55:14.but, in the meantime, you can find all of the data on the politics
:55:15. > :55:22.To discuss this, I'm joined now by the former
:55:23. > :55:35.Welcome to the programme. Does the 2015 Conservative manifesto on which
:55:36. > :55:40.you were elected to government still apply post-referendum? Yes. Really?
:55:41. > :55:44.Yes. But Theresa May seems to have hit the reset button when it comes
:55:45. > :55:48.to key areas of government policy to stamp their own style as opposed to
:55:49. > :55:53.David Cameron. I think it is interesting to talk about the role a
:55:54. > :55:58.manifesto blaze. Most voters wouldn't necessarily spend hours
:55:59. > :56:02.poring over every aspect of the manifesto. But they might look at
:56:03. > :56:07.the key pledges. Yes, and it has an absolutely crucial role. As a
:56:08. > :56:10.minister, you come in after the election, and the officials will
:56:11. > :56:14.have gone through the manifesto and taken out all the pledges and they
:56:15. > :56:19.use them as your template. That will form the basis for Cabinet
:56:20. > :56:23.committees, their gender, and so on. So yes, the manifesto remains
:56:24. > :56:26.absolutely relevant in terms of policy but at the same time you have
:56:27. > :56:30.a relationship with the voters and there may be a policy in there that
:56:31. > :56:33.post Brexit reasonably cannot follow through on and you have got to
:56:34. > :56:38.explain that to voters and it is something they might consider at the
:56:39. > :56:43.next election. Some keep pledges have been abandoned. The plan to
:56:44. > :56:48.eliminate the deficit and reach a surplus by the end of this
:56:49. > :56:53.Parliament was dumped within days. Some supporters will be very
:56:54. > :56:55.disappointed about that. Politicians are accountable at general elections
:56:56. > :56:59.and I think this is a useful exercise. I know the BBC people
:57:00. > :57:03.spent all summer putting this track together so I know we will be coming
:57:04. > :57:08.back to it because a of work has gone into it. So should there be a
:57:09. > :57:12.general election as you have just said? I don't, because Theresa May
:57:13. > :57:16.has taken over in different circumstances to the way that Gordon
:57:17. > :57:22.Brown took over from Tony Blair, for example. It was planned resignation
:57:23. > :57:25.by Tony Blair. There should have been a general election. Here
:57:26. > :57:28.Theresa May is stepping in because circumstances have changed. The
:57:29. > :57:33.Prime Minister has gone because he failed to fulfil his proposals on
:57:34. > :57:36.the EU. But if the Prime Minister comes in and abandoned ski pledges
:57:37. > :57:42.like the one about the deficit, and grammar schools, and bringing back
:57:43. > :57:47.selection, she needs to go to the country to get a fresh mandate. I
:57:48. > :57:50.don't accept that. The manifesto is very detailed and it provides a
:57:51. > :57:54.template for all departments to work too and they are held to account,
:57:55. > :57:56.but at the same time politicians have a direct relationship with
:57:57. > :58:02.voters and it will be up to Theresa May and other ministers to explain
:58:03. > :58:04.why they are changing direction but that is perfectly acceptable. Even
:58:05. > :58:07.if there hadn't been a change Prime Minister, governments can be hit by
:58:08. > :58:12.events, just like the last Labour government was hit by the banking
:58:13. > :58:18.crisis. Nobody expects a manifesto set out in 2015 remain absolutely
:58:19. > :58:21.carved in stone for five years. What about grammar schools? She didn't
:58:22. > :58:26.have to do that and nothing has changed in terms of education so why
:58:27. > :58:30.grammar schools? As a new Prime Ministers she is entitled to promote
:58:31. > :58:34.individual policies that she feels very strongly about, including
:58:35. > :58:36.grammar schools, but this consultation, the white paper, the
:58:37. > :58:43.green paper and Parliament, they get to debate it as well. You are right.
:58:44. > :58:47.When there is a national emergency, which Brexit constitutes, you do
:58:48. > :58:50.have to drop things, but you are wrong to reintroduce selection. One
:58:51. > :58:55.of the most important things that has been said in the education world
:58:56. > :58:59.for 20 years, just because you want to stamp the mark of a kind of
:59:00. > :59:03.person you intend to be. It is vain and arrogant and completely wrong.
:59:04. > :59:07.Nobody has a mandate to do that. There are two things at play here.
:59:08. > :59:12.The manifesto is important because it allows the government to know
:59:13. > :59:15.what they are playing too. But Parliament remains sovereign and if
:59:16. > :59:18.a new Prime Minister wants to bring in a new policy, Parliament can
:59:19. > :59:23.debate it and decide on it. Thank you to all our guests, especially to
:59:24. > :59:29.you. Andrew and I will be here at midday tomorrow for two programmes.
:59:30. > :59:31.Make sure you join as them. Goodbye. -- join