26/09/2016: Labour Party Conference

:00:00. > :00:00.Welcome to Liverpool, where John McDonnell

:00:07. > :00:08.is about to make his Shadow Chancellor's speech

:00:09. > :00:12.Can he restore Labour's reputation for economic competence,

:00:13. > :00:52.and steady his party's nerves, now the leadership contest is over?

:00:53. > :01:02.Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell says he won't let key industries

:01:03. > :01:04.like steel collapse, and that Labour will protect

:01:05. > :01:06.EU funds to deprived communities after Brexit.

:01:07. > :01:10.But we're promised another big announcement in his speech.

:01:11. > :01:13.We're on for the next two hours, and will bring you that

:01:14. > :01:19.live and uninterrupted, just after midday.

:01:20. > :01:22.Back in Downing Street, the PM's folk have hit back

:01:23. > :01:25.at claims Theresa May soft-peddled on curbs to immigration in the

:01:26. > :01:34.So who's right and who's wrong in the Tory Brexit blame game?

:01:35. > :01:36.A minister for peace, and talk of scrapping

:01:37. > :01:40.Are the nation's defences safe with Labour?

:01:41. > :01:45.I'll ask the Shadow Defence Secretary.

:01:46. > :01:47.And Adam takes a look inside the other Labour

:01:48. > :01:55.This whole thing is organised by Momentum, the group that grew out

:01:56. > :01:57.of Jeremy Corbyn's first leadership campaign, so they

:01:58. > :02:07.So all that, and more, in the next two hours of this

:02:08. > :02:10.Daily Politics Conference Special, live from Liverpool.

:02:11. > :02:13.Let's get right up to date with the latest developments here.

:02:14. > :02:15.I'm joined by Heather Stewart of the Guardian, and Sam

:02:16. > :02:29.Welcome to you both. Sam, is the strategy today, particularly with

:02:30. > :02:32.John McDonald's speech, to get policy announcement out so that

:02:33. > :02:36.people start talking about policy, not divisions, not the leadership?

:02:37. > :02:41.The great problem with this conference has been, up till now,

:02:42. > :02:44.what's the point of it? You had Jeremy Corbyn re-elected with a

:02:45. > :02:48.bigger mandate on Saturday, but still the sense that the party is

:02:49. > :02:52.deeply divided, and many Labour MPs thinking that their chances are very

:02:53. > :02:57.minimal of winning the next election. So basically what John

:02:58. > :03:02.McDonald, Jeremy Corbyn and his team wanted was just try and turn the

:03:03. > :03:05.page, change the conversation with a pig, eye-catching announcement. We

:03:06. > :03:10.just happen in the last few minutes, we are told that the energy and

:03:11. > :03:14.climate change spokesman Barry Gardner is going to announce that

:03:15. > :03:17.Labour will form the next election ban fracking. The party had

:03:18. > :03:21.previously been slightly more open to it, they had a position of a

:03:22. > :03:27.moratorium that they were not close to it. Now Labour, Jeremy Corbyn

:03:28. > :03:30.thinks, will play to his base, the hundreds of thousands of people that

:03:31. > :03:38.came in the leadership contest, but of course not everyone even in the

:03:39. > :03:41.labour movement dislike fracking. But what is interesting about the

:03:42. > :03:46.first big policy announcement is that it is Jeremy reaching to his

:03:47. > :03:51.core, not Jeremy Chardy to reach out beyond the limited number of people

:03:52. > :03:55.that got him back into power. So if this is an electro- strategy... Sam

:03:56. > :03:59.Coates says what is the point of this conference, what is the answer?

:04:00. > :04:07.I think you are right that the narrative today is to try to switch

:04:08. > :04:11.to big ideas and talk about policy. But it's true it has created a very

:04:12. > :04:14.odd atmosphere, having the leadership announcement at the

:04:15. > :04:18.start, and Labour MPs who were sceptical about Jeremy Corbyn's

:04:19. > :04:21.leadership stayed quiet for a proximate leak of ours a mentor to

:04:22. > :04:25.the various stages around the conference centre yesterday to

:04:26. > :04:28.express their sort of surprise, alarm and disdain. And it is very

:04:29. > :04:34.clear that there are lots of quiet murmurings that will continue. They

:04:35. > :04:38.are going to hope to turn to these sort of policy issues, but you know,

:04:39. > :04:43.particularly Brexit, where an opposition is very potent. But I

:04:44. > :04:47.don't get is going to be very easy. The Brexit of course is the issue

:04:48. > :04:50.that sort of haunts the government. And you would think therefore it

:04:51. > :04:57.would be a rich pasture for the opposition. But I'm not quite clear

:04:58. > :05:02.what the opposition position is. No, and it is a rich pasture, not least

:05:03. > :05:06.because Theresa May has effectively shut down debate on this issue. We

:05:07. > :05:09.should be talking about what kind of migration settlement, the type of

:05:10. > :05:12.economic settlement, what the consequences are, but she has

:05:13. > :05:18.effectively banned ministers from doing that so far. There should be

:05:19. > :05:20.an opportunity for the Labour Party, but guess what? The Labour Party

:05:21. > :05:27.split and there are some people who want to maintain single party

:05:28. > :05:31.membership, which means it looks quite to what it is today, in terms

:05:32. > :05:36.of migration in particular, and then there is a group that have started

:05:37. > :05:39.to come out, we saw it with Rachel Reeves, to a certain degree with

:05:40. > :05:43.Chuka Umunna, Emma Reynolds in the last few days suggesting no, we have

:05:44. > :05:48.to be more in June with the public on migration, and that might cost us

:05:49. > :05:52.about access. Fascinatingly this morning John McDonnell came out on

:05:53. > :05:57.the radio and said I want single market access, not membership. Now

:05:58. > :06:01.single market access is a bit of a curious piece, it doesn't mean

:06:02. > :06:04.anything specific but it means they will not try to get the full

:06:05. > :06:08.off-the-shelf package of single market membership that contains the

:06:09. > :06:11.free movement requirements. But what it does politically is give the

:06:12. > :06:14.government enormous cover, because it means Labour doesn't really need

:06:15. > :06:18.to spell out in any more detail what it does and doesn't think should

:06:19. > :06:21.happen, and they can get on with any hard or soft Brexit planning,

:06:22. > :06:26.knowing that Labour isn't really going to challenge them to hard in

:06:27. > :06:29.the short-term. On the Tory side, given that there are so many

:06:30. > :06:33.divisions here, you would think that one Tory tactic would be just a step

:06:34. > :06:38.back and allow the media to cover all the divisions. So was it rise of

:06:39. > :06:43.Theresa May's people in Downing Street to slap down all these

:06:44. > :06:47.stories... ? There has been a lot of slapping down in the last couple of

:06:48. > :06:52.weeks, as in there? We had these two books published at the weekend, one

:06:53. > :06:56.by David Cameron's former director of communications Craig Oliver, and

:06:57. > :07:00.another by the Sunday Times political editor, Tim Shipman,

:07:01. > :07:05.making claims about Theresa May's role in the Brexit referendum and it

:07:06. > :07:08.was quite hard. In particular on immigration, that she was

:07:09. > :07:13.unenthusiastic about this idea of an emergency brake, it was suggested.

:07:14. > :07:22.That it has given the story legs, as we say? It has, and has allowed us

:07:23. > :07:25.to write slap down stories. She was Alan of these yester, to be fair,

:07:26. > :07:32.because she thought Angela McIlroy not allow it. And she was right. --

:07:33. > :07:34.Angela Merkel. We will speak to Tim Shipman later in the programme, I

:07:35. > :07:37.think you both will be joining us. So it's a big day for

:07:38. > :07:40.Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell. We're told he may have a surprise

:07:41. > :07:43.for us in his speech in a short while, but we've got an idea of some

:07:44. > :07:46.of what he's going to say. He's going to commit to spending

:07:47. > :07:51.more than ?10 billion to make up any shortfall in funding for deprived

:07:52. > :07:53.regions resulting from Britain's He'll also say Britain needs

:07:54. > :07:57.an interventionist government working with companies,

:07:58. > :07:59.and he'll promise to borrow more Here he is speaking

:08:00. > :08:09.earlier to the BBC. The proposal is to set up a national

:08:10. > :08:12.investment bank, to allocate ?100 billion towards that,

:08:13. > :08:17.and that will lever of another ?150 billion

:08:18. > :08:25.and that will be invested in our infrastructure

:08:26. > :08:26.and in skills and it will be distributed

:08:27. > :08:29.around the country as well so that We want to be like an

:08:30. > :08:32.entrepreneurial state. That is the new concept of how

:08:33. > :08:35.government could act. Borrowing is so cheap

:08:36. > :08:37.at the moment, that would enable us, we think,

:08:38. > :08:39.very quickly to actually ensure that we could cover the cost of that

:08:40. > :08:42.by ways of increased tax revenues as a result

:08:43. > :08:44.of more people employed. And remember, the Bank of England

:08:45. > :08:48.only recently put ?75 billion into the economy

:08:49. > :08:50.through quantitative easing. So it is not anything on a massive

:08:51. > :08:52.scale but it will trigger other investment coming

:08:53. > :08:56.in from the private sector. He was Shadow Chancellor

:08:57. > :09:10.when Harriet Harman was acting Welcome back to the Daily Politics.

:09:11. > :09:16.What do you make of this particular idea of a national investment bank?

:09:17. > :09:24.I assume using state backed borrowed money. There's quite a lot to said

:09:25. > :09:29.about the package John McDonnell is coming forward with. I think there

:09:30. > :09:30.is a sensible critique of the Conservatives, in the Brexit

:09:31. > :09:37.two-year negotiation we could well say deficit reduction should be

:09:38. > :09:44.posed. The worry I have is this suggestion of ?500 billion. I mean,

:09:45. > :09:48.that's an awful lot of either borrowing for extra taxes to be

:09:49. > :09:53.raised. About 70% of all current government spending. To raise it you

:09:54. > :09:56.would have to double income tax, you would have to double national

:09:57. > :10:00.insurance, you would have to double council tax and you would have to

:10:01. > :10:04.double the VAT as well. And is he planning to borrow it? I think

:10:05. > :10:09.Vinnie the detail, and the body I have is that the Labour Party has to

:10:10. > :10:13.come up with credible policies that don't send the taxpayers running off

:10:14. > :10:17.into the hills. I suppose the argument would be that interest

:10:18. > :10:22.rates are at an historic low at the moment, 10-year British gilts,

:10:23. > :10:27.government bonds, are playing a yield of only about 0.8%. It is a

:10:28. > :10:32.cheap time to borrow for the long-term, so why not do it for a

:10:33. > :10:35.long-term investment? And I think you could legitimately say let's

:10:36. > :10:38.Paul's deficit reduction for a couple of years will stop that

:10:39. > :10:42.should be pressure on Philip Hammond and the Conservatives think I've

:10:43. > :10:47.really been playing for the Autumn Statement. But we should be pushing

:10:48. > :10:51.for that. That should be attacked on the Conservatives. The problem is if

:10:52. > :10:55.John McDonnell overreaches by making out he's got this magic money tree

:10:56. > :10:59.in his back garden that can be shaken, and everything can be sorted

:11:00. > :11:04.out, the public will sort of say, it doesn't add up. That is I think an

:11:05. > :11:08.important principle, which is one of the reasons I have disagreements

:11:09. > :11:11.with John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn. I think you've got to be

:11:12. > :11:16.straight and honest with the public about where the money comes from. If

:11:17. > :11:21.you ever promise and then get into government and can't deliver, that

:11:22. > :11:27.really is a bad state of affairs. Do you know what he means, used this

:11:28. > :11:31.phrase this morning on the BBC, the entrepreneurial state. I think there

:11:32. > :11:34.are some people who have been speaking to Professor Marianne to

:11:35. > :11:41.Carter, one of the academics has been consulting with him, trying to

:11:42. > :11:45.find ways of either voluntary sector, third sector, nonprofit way

:11:46. > :11:49.helping to get new activities and entrepreneurialism going. But I

:11:50. > :11:57.think it is over now have a feeling that something concrete. I want to

:11:58. > :12:02.see precisely what the Labour Party will do in terms of hard impact

:12:03. > :12:05.counteracting the worries people have about Brexit, showing people on

:12:06. > :12:12.public spinning and on taxes. Together, that credibility has to be

:12:13. > :12:15.brought back to the centre of their talking about. I know it sounds

:12:16. > :12:20.boring and pragmatic but it really matters to a lot of taxpayers. Isn't

:12:21. > :12:25.the Tory attack line on this quite obvious, you lost the last election

:12:26. > :12:29.because voters think you are profligate, that you are a tax and

:12:30. > :12:35.spend party, that you borrow too much, and now here you are going to

:12:36. > :12:39.borrow another 500 billion? It is why I have not been able to be part

:12:40. > :12:45.of the Shadow Cabinet. I will try to do my best from the backbenches, and

:12:46. > :12:48.I will try my best to say let's be realistic about what is achievable.

:12:49. > :12:52.We can still do radical things with that but if you fall into this

:12:53. > :12:56.almost populist mode of promising everybody everything all the time,

:12:57. > :13:02.the public can say this doesn't quite stack up and that is one of

:13:03. > :13:06.the principal reasons I find my beliefs that Mariappa really with

:13:07. > :13:10.what John is offering right now. So you are not going back into the

:13:11. > :13:14.Shadow Cabinet? No, I don't think it would be honest of me. I could go

:13:15. > :13:19.back in and sort of pretend and lighter people about it, but in all

:13:20. > :13:23.conscience, I have to be honest with my constituents in the country think

:13:24. > :13:28.that is realistic and best of the country at large, and that, to me,

:13:29. > :13:31.I'm afraid has to come first. You heard Sam Coates mentioning earlier

:13:32. > :13:34.from the Times about Labour's position on the single market, and

:13:35. > :13:40.what its policy should be, holding the government to account, as the

:13:41. > :13:44.government struggles to define what our relationship with a single

:13:45. > :13:49.market will be. Is it clear what Labour's position is on this? I

:13:50. > :13:54.think Labour generally, of course at the last conference we supported to

:13:55. > :13:57.remain in the EU. We obviously lost the referendum. I don't think we

:13:58. > :14:02.should be trying to replay this referendum we have to make the best

:14:03. > :14:06.of what we can. I would like to keep the benefits we currently have on EU

:14:07. > :14:09.membership for our businesses. So for example I had a debate in the

:14:10. > :14:14.Commons last week about financial services access. Prior percent of

:14:15. > :14:19.the economy. We need to have good regulation, robust, so we can still

:14:20. > :14:23.have access to their markets. If we end up chasing the John Redwood

:14:24. > :14:27.Nigel Lawson view of low regulation, offshore tax havens style Britain,

:14:28. > :14:30.we will not only go down the runway which is unsafe for the taxpayer but

:14:31. > :14:34.we will use access to those important markets. So there is a

:14:35. > :14:41.Labour case to be made to the government but again I think front

:14:42. > :14:43.bench have not quite grappled with their own feelings about

:14:44. > :14:49.international engagement and doing business with Europe. There is a bit

:14:50. > :14:54.of a strawman argument here, is there not? We cannot remain a member

:14:55. > :14:59.of the single market because of the things that go with it, that people

:15:00. > :15:02.voted against? Particularly free movement. Membership means free

:15:03. > :15:07.movement of people and people did not vote on 23rd. We have access to

:15:08. > :15:12.the single market, whatever our position. The thing we don't know it

:15:13. > :15:16.is on what terms will that access be? Yes, and I think there is a deal

:15:17. > :15:19.to be done somewhere about free movement of skills, because the

:15:20. > :15:23.Germans and the Italians and the French are now also thinking free

:15:24. > :15:26.movement of people without any of these constraints, that is also

:15:27. > :15:31.causing them issues, and I think probably we are in the game of a new

:15:32. > :15:35.bilateral treaty with the EU, where we cannot just take the rules that

:15:36. > :15:40.the other 20 to decide, I think that would be very difficult. So we have

:15:41. > :15:45.to have a say we have to be around the table, we have to be consulted.

:15:46. > :15:48.That, I think, probably mean some new bilateral treaty. I think that's

:15:49. > :15:53.where we need to be but also we shouldn't be triggering Article 50

:15:54. > :15:56.until we can be certain we are allowed to talk about the new

:15:57. > :16:01.relationships at the same time as the divorce process. If you have to

:16:02. > :16:05.wait two years for Brexit divorce proceedings to be finished, as the

:16:06. > :16:09.commission is saying, and then only talk about the new relationship,

:16:10. > :16:12.that is five years potential limbo. So we have got to make sure that we

:16:13. > :16:16.insist we do both those things simultaneously.

:16:17. > :16:24.So do we end up with some kind of free trade agreement with the EU? It

:16:25. > :16:29.may be that we don't necessarily stay in the customs union... The

:16:30. > :16:34.single market. Because that would mean us taking the rules, people are

:16:35. > :16:37.worried about Ttip and some of those things and that is when we are in

:16:38. > :16:41.the club and can talk about them but if we are not in it, we have to take

:16:42. > :16:45.the rules but we need to find a new way of staying in being consulted

:16:46. > :16:51.and that to me is a new bilateral treaty. If it is now inevitable that

:16:52. > :16:55.Jeremy Corbyn leads your party into the next election? Well, the members

:16:56. > :17:02.as is have chosen for him to be at the helm. He did very well amongst

:17:03. > :17:08.the new joiners, not all of them, but by and large. He got 85% of the

:17:09. > :17:11.newcomers. But actually, the majority of long-standing members,

:17:12. > :17:17.as exit polls show, were for change. We ended up with 59% of the

:17:18. > :17:22.membership voting for Jeremy and 41% dissatisfied, wanting a change. That

:17:23. > :17:26.41% is a big, serious group of mostly long-standing members who

:17:27. > :17:30.want to hold Jeremy to account. Now he has to meet a series of

:17:31. > :17:34.challenges. He's got to develop credible policies. He's got to look

:17:35. > :17:41.like a Prime Minister in waiting. He has to go ahead in the opinion

:17:42. > :17:45.polls. Those are hurdles he's got to get over. Are you confident that

:17:46. > :17:50.will happen? I've been waiting to see if there is this mythical olive

:17:51. > :17:55.branch... Is the mythical olive branch next to the magic money tree?

:17:56. > :17:59.Are they in the same room? I hope not, I hope the olive branch is real

:18:00. > :18:01.because if we can't reach accommodation, as I say, I think we

:18:02. > :18:06.can be productive from the backbenches, some of us, but if we

:18:07. > :18:09.don't have a front bench Shadow Cabinet chosen by the Parliamentary

:18:10. > :18:13.Labour Party, then it is going to be very difficult for MPs in their

:18:14. > :18:17.codgers, representing their constituents, to go along with some

:18:18. > :18:21.of the things that they have not been part of formulating. On the

:18:22. > :18:25.backbenches, we can continue with our own policy agenda and develop

:18:26. > :18:29.that, sensible, hard-headed, you know, we have got to keep trying and

:18:30. > :18:33.that is what I will try to do. Let me ask you one more specific

:18:34. > :18:35.question, the Labour Party has said that if it forms the next

:18:36. > :18:41.government, it will ban fracking. What is your position on that? I

:18:42. > :18:46.can't say I have ever been a big fan of fracking. Have to be careful what

:18:47. > :18:51.you say, they're! It came out right but I'm not sure how it squares with

:18:52. > :18:55.reopening the coal mines which is something Jeremy was also keen to

:18:56. > :18:59.do. You do have to have an energy policy that yes, focuses on reducing

:19:00. > :19:04.carbon emissions but also provides energy security and build that the

:19:05. > :19:09.consumer can afford. Unless you get all of those things right, I think

:19:10. > :19:12.we are very good at saying what we are against but we have to now say

:19:13. > :19:15.what we are for. Chris Leslie, good to see you. Have not seen you for a

:19:16. > :19:17.while. Great to be back. Talk of splits and infighting

:19:18. > :19:19.continue here in Liverpool, but the Conservatives,

:19:20. > :19:22.who meet for their conference next week in Birmingham,

:19:23. > :19:28.obviously don't want to be left out. Prime Minister Theresa May has this

:19:29. > :19:33.morning had a rather pointed dig at her predecessor,

:19:34. > :19:35.David Cameron, after claims that he called

:19:36. > :19:37.her "lily-livered". The claim was made in a book

:19:38. > :19:43.by the political editor of the Sunday Times,

:19:44. > :19:46.one of a couple of new books about the referendum causing

:19:47. > :19:52.a stir over the weekend. It claims that, in a 2014 speech,

:19:53. > :19:55.Mr Cameron wanted to demand stronger controls on EU migration,

:19:56. > :19:57.including an "emergency brake" Mrs May, along with the then

:19:58. > :20:03.Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond, put a dampener on that, arguing that

:20:04. > :20:07.German Chancellor Angela Merkel After the meeting, Mr Cameron

:20:08. > :20:16.told an advisor that his In response to the claims,

:20:17. > :20:33.David Cameron's replacement at No 10 Mrs May has taken the unprecedented

:20:34. > :20:35.step of releasing details of two letters Mrs May,

:20:36. > :20:37.then Home Secretary, sent to David Cameron calling

:20:38. > :20:39.for an emergency brake, one in November 2014,

:20:40. > :20:46.and one in May 2015. They also point to previous

:20:47. > :20:49.articles from 2013 and 2014 where Mrs May argued

:20:50. > :20:52.for "a cap" on EU migration. In the end, Mr Cameron's final deal

:20:53. > :21:00.with the EU secured curbs on benefits for migration,

:21:01. > :21:02.not on overall numbers. And the terms of that deal

:21:03. > :21:05.were rejected by the voting public, who opted to leave the EU

:21:06. > :21:10.on the 23rd June referendum. Well, the man responsible

:21:11. > :21:12.for the book that's caused this kerfuffle is Tim Shipman

:21:13. > :21:16.from the Sunday Times. He joins me now, and from our

:21:17. > :21:18.Westminster studio I'm joined by Mark Wallace from

:21:19. > :21:29.the website Conservative Home. So, Tim Shipman, it turns out Mrs

:21:30. > :21:33.May wanted an emergency brake. She appears to have wanted it a week

:21:34. > :21:36.before the meeting and she appears to have put her thoughts in writing

:21:37. > :21:40.to the Prime Minister six months after the meeting. But my sources

:21:41. > :21:44.are adamant and Downing Street, it is important to say, are not denying

:21:45. > :21:48.that in this key meeting just before David Cameron made the speech laying

:21:49. > :21:52.out what he wanted on immigration, she did not back him up on the

:21:53. > :22:00.grounds that it would not win the support of the Germans. But you

:22:01. > :22:04.could be in favour of a brake and say it won't run with Angela Merkel

:22:05. > :22:08.and that is also right. I'm not sure why there is a conflict. She wanted

:22:09. > :22:12.a brake, she would have loved it and was all for it but she knew it would

:22:13. > :22:15.not wash with the German Chancellor. The point the people around David

:22:16. > :22:19.Cameron are making is that this is a pivotal moment in the referendum.

:22:20. > :22:22.From this point onwards, the speech he makes on immigration committee is

:22:23. > :22:26.demanding things on benefits, not numbers and they think that is

:22:27. > :22:35.critical. -- on immigration, he is demanding. It set the policy,

:22:36. > :22:38.despite it just being a conversation, from that point until

:22:39. > :22:42.the referenda. From that point onwards, the benefits are people on

:22:43. > :22:45.the speech was only watered down further so writing memos and letters

:22:46. > :22:49.six months later, the scene was already set by then. This was the

:22:50. > :22:54.moment where, if you were going to take a stand, you could have done

:22:55. > :22:58.it. But she was right. Arguably, she was but people are looking back now

:22:59. > :23:07.saying why and how what the referendum lost, and they think the

:23:08. > :23:09.failure to go big, to ask for more, to try to transcend the tramlines of

:23:10. > :23:13.European law, was where the mistake was made. Cameron himself at that

:23:14. > :23:17.point appears to have thought, let's go for it because that 3am in a

:23:18. > :23:20.summit, they might give us something. Don't forget, the

:23:21. > :23:23.benefits stuff he did put in the speech, officials in Downing Street

:23:24. > :23:27.and all the people around also said that was illegal and would not work

:23:28. > :23:32.but in the end he got some of it. So some of this may have been

:23:33. > :23:38.obtainable if he had gone for it. Let's go to Mark Wallace. What do

:23:39. > :23:45.you think? Is it credible that Mrs May was against tougher curbs on

:23:46. > :23:48.immigration? As you just said, Andrew, the really notable thing is

:23:49. > :23:51.when you look at the details, the two accounts are not completely

:23:52. > :23:55.incompatible. It is perfectly possible Theresa May was asking the

:23:56. > :23:59.Prime Minister for a proper, tough brake on immigration but when she

:24:00. > :24:02.looked at what David Cameron was actually talking about, which was

:24:03. > :24:06.not really a brake in Britain's control but one that they would ask

:24:07. > :24:15.for and the European Commission and every single other EU member state

:24:16. > :24:17.would have to give us permission to pull the brake, she might have

:24:18. > :24:19.looked at it and thought it was frankly pointless. Tim Shipman, it

:24:20. > :24:22.is kind of counterintuitive that Theresa May, given the speech she

:24:23. > :24:29.made at the Tory conference last year, would want to water down any

:24:30. > :24:32.British position on immigration. I think that is probably why it is

:24:33. > :24:37.news, why it is interesting because the debate now is about what lessons

:24:38. > :24:39.can be learned from how the referendum campaign and the

:24:40. > :24:44.renegotiation was conducted in terms of how we now go forward to

:24:45. > :24:46.negotiate Brexit. Downing Street, I need to stress, are not disputing

:24:47. > :24:51.that in this meeting, that is precisely what Mrs May did. They are

:24:52. > :24:55.rightly saying there is contact stillness and she remained a firm

:24:56. > :24:58.advocate of tough measures. -- context do this. But when it came to

:24:59. > :25:03.putting the policy in the speech, she thought it would not wash. But

:25:04. > :25:06.it is dancing on the head of a pin, it was not that she was against an

:25:07. > :25:11.emergency brake, in fact, she was in favour of it. It is just that she

:25:12. > :25:15.did not think, all the evidence suggests she was right, that you

:25:16. > :25:19.could sell that to the Germans in general and Angela Merkel in

:25:20. > :25:25.particular. I don't understand what it tells us beyond that. It tells us

:25:26. > :25:29.she wanted to work with the grain of the system and David Cameron, who

:25:30. > :25:32.ended up working with the grain of the system as well, at the one

:25:33. > :25:36.moment where he felt, actually, shall we try to do something more

:25:37. > :25:40.radical, she did not seem to want to do that. But he could still have

:25:41. > :25:50.forced it through if he wanted. Of course and when you read the rest of

:25:51. > :25:52.the book, you will see the David Cameron is not exactly escaping scot

:25:53. > :25:55.free himself. Mark Wallace, we have also had Craig Oliver's account of

:25:56. > :25:57.the referendum campaign. He talks of a submarine strategy by Theresa May,

:25:58. > :26:02.that she was pretty much invisible during the referendum campaign. That

:26:03. > :26:04.is quite accurate, isn't it? It is pretty accurate and you have to stay

:26:05. > :26:09.in retrospect, that was something that turned out to be quite wise. --

:26:10. > :26:14.you have disabled these are two different books, Tim's is a

:26:15. > :26:17.journalistic account and Craig Oliver's is much more partisan for

:26:18. > :26:21.obvious reasons but what shines through in both of them is that

:26:22. > :26:24.there is a huge blame game going on, people who were running the country

:26:25. > :26:28.three and a half months ago are now engaged, quite extraordinary, in

:26:29. > :26:34.trying to take chunks out of the next Prime Minister which is not a

:26:35. > :26:37.great look. Isn't this just the settling of old scores, Tim? These

:26:38. > :26:40.are the losers and they want to blame somebody else. They lost the

:26:41. > :26:44.campaign, their campaign, they called it, they ran it, the campaign

:26:45. > :26:49.was run from Downing Street by people like Craig Oliver, Mr

:26:50. > :26:51.Cameron, himself, they decided the positions are now they are just

:26:52. > :26:56.trying to smear the new Prime Minister? There is certainly a case

:26:57. > :26:59.that there's a difference of opinion but I think it is an attempt to

:27:00. > :27:02.learn some lessons. There were divisions within Downing Street

:27:03. > :27:06.about how far Cameron should go and a lot of the people around Cameron

:27:07. > :27:11.felt he should do something much bolder. They looked at this moment

:27:12. > :27:15.as the one moment where he might have done that. They think that it

:27:16. > :27:22.is unfortunate that he was not backed up at that point. Finally, if

:27:23. > :27:26.he had gone to Berlin, to the German Chancellor and said, "I need a brake

:27:27. > :27:32.to be able to sell this referendum to the British people, to win it, I

:27:33. > :27:35.need an emergency brake on numbers", and she had said, would almost

:27:36. > :27:40.certainly she would have, "I understand that but I'm afraid, as a

:27:41. > :27:44.woman from Eastern Europe who lived behind the Berlin Wall, that it is a

:27:45. > :27:50.red line for me, there is no way we can agree to that", what would he

:27:51. > :27:54.have done? He would have had to capitulate or campaign to leave and

:27:55. > :27:58.that was never going to happen. That is one argument. But I return to

:27:59. > :28:02.what I said earlier. The benefits stuff was also not beloved in

:28:03. > :28:07.Europe. People in the British government, lawyers and people in

:28:08. > :28:10.Berlin all said it contravened the principles of non-discrimination and

:28:11. > :28:14.yet, at the end of the day, he ended up getting a version of it. There

:28:15. > :28:18.are people who think if he had pushed harder on free movement,

:28:19. > :28:23.there were areas where he might have achieved more. We will never know!

:28:24. > :28:24.Tim Shipman, Mark Wallace, thank you very much.

:28:25. > :28:27.Now, events held on the fringes of party conference are usually

:28:28. > :28:31.They're a chance to meet policy enthusiasts in a warm room,

:28:32. > :28:33.with even warmer glasses of wine, if you're lucky.

:28:34. > :28:35.But not far from where we are in Liverpool,

:28:36. > :28:37.the Jeremy Corbyn-supporting campaign group Momentum has been

:28:38. > :28:40.holding an event on a much bigger scale, with the rather ambitious aim

:28:41. > :28:50.Right, this festival is happening near Chinatown,

:28:51. > :28:52.in an arts venue, called the Black E.

:28:53. > :28:54.It is called "The World Transformed".

:28:55. > :28:57.Let's find out how our world is going to be transformed.

:28:58. > :29:00.This whole thing is organised by Momentum, the group that grew out

:29:01. > :29:01.of Jeremy Corbyn's first leadership campaign.

:29:02. > :29:06.Next door is the nation's largest ethical streetwear brand,

:29:07. > :29:10.selling all sorts of Jeremy Corbyn T-shirts.

:29:11. > :29:14.Apparently, this is the best seller, here, being modelled by Ash.

:29:15. > :29:17.This is the bookshop called News From Nowhere which is run

:29:18. > :29:23.You can pick up such brilliant tomes as The Jeremy Corbyn Colouring-In

:29:24. > :29:30.Book, and a collection of poems in honour of the Labour leader.

:29:31. > :29:35.Then, magically, Jeremy Corbyn dropped in, completely unannounced.

:29:36. > :29:52.This corner is where people come to have a rant on any

:29:53. > :29:54.subject they feel strongly about, like Michelle

:29:55. > :30:10.If all that activism leaves you starving,

:30:11. > :30:13.why not join the queue here for one of the famous pies

:30:14. > :30:17.This is a Shankly Pie, a local delicacy made with steak,

:30:18. > :30:24.The whole hall is dominated by these massive banners for causes ranging

:30:25. > :30:27.from the Liverpool dockers to climate change to people who have

:30:28. > :30:34.There's more art up here where you will find Phil

:30:35. > :30:36.the sculptor hard at work on a bust of Sylvia Pankhurst,

:30:37. > :30:41.the daughter of Emmeline, the suffragette leader.

:30:42. > :30:44.And this is Edward Rushton, a poet, blind, born in Liverpool and helped

:30:45. > :30:51.And that, ladies and gentlemen, is The World Transformed.

:30:52. > :30:57.We're joined now by one of Momentum's national organisers,

:30:58. > :31:00.Adam Klug, and by John McTernan, who has worked for the Labour Party

:31:01. > :31:03.in various guises including as an adviser to Tony Blair.

:31:04. > :31:13.Welcome to you both. Adam at the world transformed meeting, is this

:31:14. > :31:17.the people who could not get into the Labour Party conference? No, it

:31:18. > :31:22.is to try to enable the conference to be even more accessible than it

:31:23. > :31:24.is already, so intending to attract visitors and delegates to

:31:25. > :31:30.conference, but also groups like disabled people against cuts, black

:31:31. > :31:33.lives matter, Hillsborough Justice campaign, groups that might not have

:31:34. > :31:37.been able to have afforded a story that to be part of it and have their

:31:38. > :31:43.own workshops and sessions. What is the fundamental purpose? To bring

:31:44. > :31:46.the new politics into action, in the way of having their participatory

:31:47. > :31:51.workshops, talks and discussions and music, club nights in the evening,

:31:52. > :31:59.to try and return the Labour Party into the social movement so many

:32:00. > :32:03.wish it to be. Dirk Kuyt to bring all bring that into the Labour

:32:04. > :32:08.conference itself? I think so, in time. But I see it in harmony with

:32:09. > :32:12.the comfort and amplifying the Labour Party rather than as some

:32:13. > :32:18.people suggest somehow Anelka alternative conference, which is not

:32:19. > :32:25.how it is intended at all. Red Mr Corbyn said we need to went people

:32:26. > :32:30.have been tempted to vote Tory have voted Tory. How is your momentum

:32:31. > :32:33.gathering on that? It is time to bring in people who are new to

:32:34. > :32:44.politics who previously felt that mentioning politics has not been for

:32:45. > :32:49.them. People who are affected in their lives will vote a different

:32:50. > :32:56.party for a number of reasons and a lot of those people will come to The

:32:57. > :33:01.World Transformed and have their voices heard. I am not sure how you

:33:02. > :33:07.attract Tory inclined people by selling mugs that said Tories are

:33:08. > :33:16.vermin, and T-shirts that said still hate Thatcher. I haven't seen either

:33:17. > :33:22.of those things. But you have been to Momentum, haven't you? It is a

:33:23. > :33:27.diverse range of people over 200 hours of workshops. How are you

:33:28. > :33:33.going to attract anybody outside political geeks to want to be there

:33:34. > :33:36.for that? It went on until 2am, 2:30am on Saturday, and there will

:33:37. > :33:40.be another big music night on Tuesday. On Saturday night I was

:33:41. > :33:43.talking to a number of disabled people who are from Liverpool, who

:33:44. > :33:47.had come along and it is a fully accessible space and they were on

:33:48. > :33:51.the dance floor, and I was having a chat with an outside. People are

:33:52. > :33:54.saying to the first time in a very long time they felt this was a place

:33:55. > :33:58.that was truly inclusive. There was a lot more overweight to go.

:33:59. > :34:03.Momentum has brought a lot more people into the party, a lot younger

:34:04. > :34:06.people into the party, people who have not previously been involved in

:34:07. > :34:13.party politics into the party. What's wrong with that? Probably the

:34:14. > :34:17.most serious thing is that they would define their politics around a

:34:18. > :34:24.set of issues and ideas which are completely unpalatable to the

:34:25. > :34:28.British public. I saw the energy at Momentum, I was there yesterday, and

:34:29. > :34:31.I saw lots of the meetings but these are not mainstream political ideas,

:34:32. > :34:34.they are the ideas of the fringe, and the reason they are on the

:34:35. > :34:42.fringe politics is because they are popular. Such as what? They are

:34:43. > :34:46.anti-capitalist, which in the end is antigrowth, which is anti-wealth.

:34:47. > :34:51.That is not a policy, it is a frame of mind or a strategy,

:34:52. > :34:55.anti-capitalism. But policies are Momentum espousing that are

:34:56. > :35:00.unpopular, reaching out to disabled people, why would that be unpopular?

:35:01. > :35:05.Those on policies, they are ways of working, they are very friendly and

:35:06. > :35:10.a welcoming environment are go into, but the Momentum mindset is that if

:35:11. > :35:13.more people talk more about John McDonnell's economic policies to

:35:14. > :35:17.people, they will convince them that printing money is the way to save

:35:18. > :35:22.the economy, and it's not. It's not a strategy because it's not a

:35:23. > :35:27.message to sell. What is the meaning of the Momentum mindset? It is a

:35:28. > :35:35.very large Jeremy Corbyn Fanclub, and good on him. But a political

:35:36. > :35:40.party needs activists, and one of the complaint I have heard from MPs

:35:41. > :35:45.who are here is that Momentum members join the party and go to

:35:46. > :35:49.Momentum that are never active on doorsteps, they never leaflet and

:35:50. > :35:58.never campaign. Is that right? Not at all, let's think about it, Labour

:35:59. > :36:03.have lost two general elections, and we now have so many more new

:36:04. > :36:09.activists who are out campaigning. The momentum of for Labour hashtag

:36:10. > :36:15.has proved really effective in the May elections. By-elections. I get

:36:16. > :36:19.lots of tweets from Momentum. Sometimes they don't want to be

:36:20. > :36:27.obviously branded as Momentum, so they are just out campaigning. We

:36:28. > :36:32.love Twitter, but Twitter is not the world, it is an echo chamber, it is

:36:33. > :36:36.just an exchange of views with people who normally agree with, not

:36:37. > :36:41.political suasion. Isn't the problem though that many people will regard

:36:42. > :36:46.Momentum and the people at this Momentum gathering as the future for

:36:47. > :36:51.Labour, and the Parliamentary party will have to start being more

:36:52. > :36:58.representative of the future, rather than dinosaurs such as yourself?

:36:59. > :37:03.What we actually see is, as members join the party, there is an

:37:04. > :37:06.enthusiasm. The members who joined last year lost their enthusiasm for

:37:07. > :37:15.him after the Brexit vote, because they blamed him for Labour's per

:37:16. > :37:19.performance in mobilising voters. I say good on Momentum for organising

:37:20. > :37:23.their events, good on them for bringing people into politics, but

:37:24. > :37:26.the thing is politics is about persuasion, and persuasion is based

:37:27. > :37:30.on conversation, and that is an exchange of views, not the

:37:31. > :37:35.transmission of a set of use to which there can be no variants that

:37:36. > :37:39.is my problem. Firstly, it is great that you came yesterday and so what

:37:40. > :37:45.The World Transformed is about but the talking about Momentum mindset

:37:46. > :37:49.is a fundamental misunderstanding of a pluralist range of views, people

:37:50. > :37:53.coming in to discuss. It is not a place with a fixed mindset of

:37:54. > :37:56.indoctrination. I'm sure that's not how you experienced it yesterday,

:37:57. > :38:04.and I would incur Vergeer, Andrew, to come along as well. Is that an

:38:05. > :38:12.invite? Yes. Can I get one of these pies? Indeed! By New Road about some

:38:13. > :38:19.of the merchandise, some letters join the British Army and get free

:38:20. > :38:24.prosthetic limbs. I believe you are referring to Darren Cullen, an

:38:25. > :38:29.artist, who in collaboration with veterans UK was putting on an art

:38:30. > :38:33.exhibition about the horrors of war but it was absolutely not a way of

:38:34. > :38:36.demonising soldiers or anything, it was just amplifying the issues which

:38:37. > :38:41.were often creates both civilians and people in services. Right, but

:38:42. > :38:45.there were some mugs that if you are in the army you would take offence

:38:46. > :38:49.to, would you not? I don't think they were intended in any way to be

:38:50. > :38:53.demonising soldiers, that wasn't the intention at all. If anyone did take

:38:54. > :39:03.offence to that, that is a shame. I apologise. On the Jewish labour

:39:04. > :39:07.movement, one of the leaflet says that you are using the charge of

:39:08. > :39:12.anti-Semitism to attack the new movement. By New Road about being

:39:13. > :39:18.thought of in parts as anti-Semitic. I can't hear you so well because it

:39:19. > :39:21.is quite nosy, J say? There have been some complaints about charges

:39:22. > :39:27.of anti-Semitism of the new movement. Are you worried about

:39:28. > :39:32.that? There was a session about the Chakravarty enquiry yesterday as a

:39:33. > :39:35.way of having a range of diverse voices, Jewish voices, and

:39:36. > :39:41.discussing anti-Semitism both within the party and more broadly within

:39:42. > :39:43.society, and a way of breaking down misconceptions, and hearing

:39:44. > :39:46.different viewpoints from a range of perspectives, so as to learn from

:39:47. > :39:52.one another and to stamp out anti-Semitism. Are you the Momentum

:39:53. > :39:59.guy in the Channel 4 documentary that says Momentum has taken over

:40:00. > :40:05.Bristol? We had somebody who came in who worked with us for five months

:40:06. > :40:11.as a volunteer, who was really seen as a friend by many, who was with us

:40:12. > :40:16.for a long period of time. He did secretly for me in the corridor and

:40:17. > :40:20.said something taken out of context. What I was saying is that there were

:40:21. > :40:23.loads of new activists who got involved in the party, both

:40:24. > :40:26.campaigning in a range of issues but they had also got active in the

:40:27. > :40:30.Labour Party and been elected to positions, but it is not in some

:40:31. > :40:34.orchestra to plan to take over and infiltrate from a small group. That

:40:35. > :40:38.is not what Momentum is, it is not infiltrating the Labour Party, it is

:40:39. > :40:42.the Labour Party. We will leave it there, thanks to both of you.

:40:43. > :40:44.Now, yesterday we reported that the Labour peer Parry Mitchell

:40:45. > :40:46.had resigned from the party in protest at Jeremy

:40:47. > :40:49.This morning, the Leader of the Labour Group

:40:50. > :40:52.on Portsmouth City Council, John Ferrett, has resigned, and he

:40:53. > :41:04.Why have you resigned? I have come to the conclusion I can no longer

:41:05. > :41:07.stay in a Labour Party that is not only led by Jeremy Corbyn, but is

:41:08. > :41:12.effectively being shipped in his image. I spent the last year

:41:13. > :41:17.struggling with that, but Jeremy clearly has a clear mandate. Now he

:41:18. > :41:25.has won a second election but it is not something I want to be part of.

:41:26. > :41:29.And was because he was re-elected for a second time did you conclude

:41:30. > :41:34.that that settles the matter, and that the kind of Labour Party you

:41:35. > :41:42.want is now really not possible for the foreseeable future? Yes,

:41:43. > :41:46.certainly, and I feel that the 172 Labour MPs crossed the Rubicon when

:41:47. > :41:49.they decided to have a vote of no-confidence in Jeremy, because I

:41:50. > :41:53.cannot see, and I ask this question over the weekend directly to some

:41:54. > :41:59.members of the PLP, but didn't get an answer. The question is how can

:42:00. > :42:02.you go out at election time cap advocated Jeremy Corbyn to be prime

:42:03. > :42:05.ministers of a country and at the same time so you have absolutely no

:42:06. > :42:09.confidence in him? Electors are not stupid and they will just throw that

:42:10. > :42:15.straight back at those member is of the PLP. What has been the reaction

:42:16. > :42:24.on your Labour colleagues in Portsmouth? I'm sorry, Andrew, can

:42:25. > :42:33.you repeat that? Yes, what has been the reaction of your Labour

:42:34. > :42:40.colleagues in the city? No, I think he's struggling to hear. I can hear

:42:41. > :42:46.you now, Andrew. I just wondered what the reaction was of your Labour

:42:47. > :42:51.colleagues in the city had been? I have had some expressions of support

:42:52. > :42:54.from long-standing members, clearly the Labour Party in Portsmouth

:42:55. > :43:00.reflects what is happening in the country. That the Labour Party in

:43:01. > :43:05.Portsmouth has gone from 400 member is to over 1700 members in the last

:43:06. > :43:09.year. Those people I campaigned with and worked with prior to 2015

:43:10. > :43:13.appeared to be very supportive, but I suspect those that have come in

:43:14. > :43:17.subsequently, particularly those organised by momentum will be glad

:43:18. > :43:24.to see the back of May. And is Momentum now a force in your local

:43:25. > :43:33.Labour Party? Yes, Portsmouth was one of the first CLPs I think to be

:43:34. > :43:39.taken over by Momentum. Taken over? Yes, Momentum took over of the

:43:40. > :43:44.office within the CLP. I would argue that Portsmouth is right in the

:43:45. > :43:47.vanguard of Momentum, it is a Momentum stronghold. Over the last

:43:48. > :43:51.year I have faced a lot of hostility from them because I have a

:43:52. > :43:55.completely different political perspective. Mr ferret, we will

:43:56. > :43:59.leave it there. Struggling through the sound problems and the wind, and

:44:00. > :44:07.lots of noise all over, I am very grateful to you. Always windy here,

:44:08. > :44:08.Andrew! That is the news from Portsmouth.

:44:09. > :44:13.I'm joined now by the Labour mayor of Bristol, Marvin Rees.

:44:14. > :44:19.What is your reaction to his resignation? To be honest, it is the

:44:20. > :44:22.first I have heard of it right now so it is a bit of a surprise, but we

:44:23. > :44:25.need to keep people on board. I think the critical thing to the

:44:26. > :44:28.party's future is that we have a genuine diversity of thought and

:44:29. > :44:33.argument to make sure the propositions we take to the country

:44:34. > :44:36.are as rich as they should be. But he was saying that Momentum had

:44:37. > :44:43.taken over the local party in Portsmouth. Has it taken over the

:44:44. > :44:47.Labour Party in Bristol too? No, and we worked very hard to the election

:44:48. > :44:51.campaign to make sure that we are protecting this space in the party

:44:52. > :44:55.to have rich debate. Clearly, sometimes that went over the top,

:44:56. > :44:59.and we are dealing with some of the consequences of that now. But as the

:45:00. > :45:02.leader of my party investor I am really keen to make sure that our

:45:03. > :45:05.local debate, not just within the Labour Party, but across the

:45:06. > :45:13.political parties is as rich and dynamic as it should be. So when

:45:14. > :45:17.Adam Klug from Momentum said in the Channel 4 document tree, the battle

:45:18. > :45:22.for the Labour Party, referring to Momentum after a visit to the city

:45:23. > :45:25.of Bristol, they are taking over, they are taking over of the

:45:26. > :45:29.constituency Labour parties in the area, they are completely like

:45:30. > :45:33.running the Labour Party. Look at what I am doing in my city, I have

:45:34. > :45:38.delivered a cross-party cabinet, six women, Faye men, I have a Liberal

:45:39. > :45:41.Democrat, a green party member and a conservative in my cabinet. We are

:45:42. > :45:45.building a big support base across business, the voluntary sector and

:45:46. > :45:52.the political parties. We have taken city government outside of the city

:45:53. > :45:55.and it is a party not looking in on itself, we are determined. Have they

:45:56. > :46:00.taken over the constituency Labour parties in the area?

:46:01. > :46:05.No, they haven't, and the important message we want to bring to

:46:06. > :46:08.conference is that the domination of local politics and city politics by

:46:09. > :46:14.the Westminster conversation is one that needs... We need to move beyond

:46:15. > :46:19.it. I am the leader of one of the ten core cities. Between us, we

:46:20. > :46:22.oversee 90 million people. We need the Westminster debate to begin to

:46:23. > :46:25.wrap itself around how it supports city leaders to deliver not asking

:46:26. > :46:29.city leaders to keep commenting and wrapping itself around the

:46:30. > :46:35.Westminster debate. How important is the devolution of powers to cities

:46:36. > :46:40.like yours and high profile mayors like you, like London and Manchester

:46:41. > :46:45.are about to have and so on, how does that help rebuild the Labour

:46:46. > :46:50.Party? It is essential. Devolution is not just imported in rebuilding

:46:51. > :46:53.the Labour Party. It is important to rebuilding cities. It is essential

:46:54. > :46:57.and one of the challenges that we as their core cities will be bringing

:46:58. > :47:01.to the party today is that they need to be much more proactive in

:47:02. > :47:06.supporting devolution's agenda. We want to take responsibility but we

:47:07. > :47:09.don't want a hospital pass. We want to take responsibility for

:47:10. > :47:12.populations and to deliver for them but we need the power to make sure

:47:13. > :47:16.we get the homes built and the transport systems in place. What is

:47:17. > :47:21.the one big power you would like to have if you could have it tomorrow?

:47:22. > :47:24.Transport. We are making good headway on building houses. We have

:47:25. > :47:28.a fantastic political lead on that but we need to be able to get hold

:47:29. > :47:32.of transport. You can't have great cities without great transport

:47:33. > :47:36.network and Bristol faces major challenges. If you had the transport

:47:37. > :47:44.power, what would you do with it? Begin to shape the bus routes in the

:47:45. > :47:46.first instance, who gets served so we don't end up with isolated

:47:47. > :47:48.communities. And that comes from local knowledge and demand?

:47:49. > :47:52.Absolutely, not just in local government but with the brass

:47:53. > :47:56.providers and the voluntary sectors and community and business. You have

:47:57. > :48:01.said you oppose austerity. Everybody seems to these days. Is it not true

:48:02. > :48:06.that he faced 1000 job losses at City Hall? We have offered voluntary

:48:07. > :48:10.severance with the aim of balancing the budget, we set a legal budget

:48:11. > :48:14.for this year which we must do. Unfortunately, we have had to go to

:48:15. > :48:18.the workforce. What we have said is I think many aspects of austerity

:48:19. > :48:22.are a full sick on. They may save money in the short-term but because

:48:23. > :48:26.they cut back on our ability as local government to invest in

:48:27. > :48:31.preventative around public health and the size of the workforce, it

:48:32. > :48:38.will cost us in the years to come. Is there an appetite for more

:48:39. > :48:43.power... Let me do this in two ways. The people of Bristol, do they want

:48:44. > :48:47.more power devolved to their city? I think there was, and often, in the

:48:48. > :48:52.Brexit result as well, there was a bit of a spoof but I think it was

:48:53. > :48:56.indicative of our city, about people declaring an independent state. With

:48:57. > :49:01.a distinctive political culture? Yet and I think we need to respect that,

:49:02. > :49:06.looking towards the American model where city governments have genuine

:49:07. > :49:11.power. And tax-raising powers? Would you like that, too? I would but

:49:12. > :49:19.don't attach the tax-raising to me, tax management! This Conservative

:49:20. > :49:25.government has kind of started this process of empowering local

:49:26. > :49:30.government, cities, around cities, as it go nearly far enough for you

:49:31. > :49:32.-- it hasn't gone nearly far enough for you but do you detect an

:49:33. > :49:37.appetite in Whitehall to devolve more power to cities? It is

:49:38. > :49:40.difficult to know right now with the change of government. We are seeing

:49:41. > :49:43.where they stand but my understanding was the deals we

:49:44. > :49:47.struck around the devolution deal one for the West of England what the

:49:48. > :49:50.deal that was on the table so we can continue with that. We are entering

:49:51. > :49:53.into conversations now with the government about looking for

:49:54. > :50:00.devolution deals two, three and four. I will say from my sense, what

:50:01. > :50:03.we are not talking about is not just deluge as with powers. There's an

:50:04. > :50:07.element at which local government has to be able to grow into that

:50:08. > :50:10.because there could be a bunch of responsibility without the skill set

:50:11. > :50:16.and culture to be able to manage it. So walk before you can run? Exactly,

:50:17. > :50:20.we have to grow into it. In Bristol on Thursday, for example, we are

:50:21. > :50:24.pulling together 70-75 city leaders to say that shaping a place is not

:50:25. > :50:27.just about local government, it is about the way businesses interact

:50:28. > :50:31.the voluntary sector will -- voluntary sector, faith groups and

:50:32. > :50:36.local universities so we have do have a bigger solution. If the

:50:37. > :50:40.Labour leadership on site for city devolution? The core city leaders

:50:41. > :50:45.are and we are a major part of the party. I work that bit out but what

:50:46. > :50:50.about the party? We are getting a sympathetic ear. This is part of

:50:51. > :50:53.being here today and one of the things I will talk about on the

:50:54. > :50:56.floor tomorrow is that they need to support us to deliver. That is where

:50:57. > :51:01.you will see evidence of what Labour leadership candy but when I say not,

:51:02. > :51:03.I want to be clear that the fault lines of national politics don't

:51:04. > :51:08.always easily translate to the local level where we have to be very

:51:09. > :51:11.pragmatic and deliver. As I said, we are a cross-party cabinet. We work

:51:12. > :51:16.with the challenges of that but we know it is good that the city and it

:51:17. > :51:22.creates a difficult did -- different kind of political culture. What is

:51:23. > :51:27.the composition? Beside me, I have nine cabinet members, six Labour and

:51:28. > :51:32.a Liberal Democrat, a Green and a conservative. Does that broadly

:51:33. > :51:37.reflect the political balance of the city? It reflects all the elected

:51:38. > :51:41.parties apart from Ukip. You have to be more pragmatic, is what you are

:51:42. > :51:47.saying? You have executive power so rather than posturing, you have to

:51:48. > :51:50.deliver? Like I said, we have do deliver for the whole city. It is

:51:51. > :51:53.saying that the local government challenge is not simply about having

:51:54. > :51:57.political knock-about in the council chamber. We have to work with the

:51:58. > :52:00.chamber of commerce, the voluntary sector and some of those people are

:52:01. > :52:09.not interested in the knock-about. It is important we have meaningful

:52:10. > :52:11.political debate, I'm not undermining its importance but we

:52:12. > :52:14.are not just in the contest about who can get a headline in the local

:52:15. > :52:16.paper. We're working out how to deliver. At some point, local

:52:17. > :52:19.councillors have to deliver for people. That is the culture and the

:52:20. > :52:25.structure we are trying to build. When are you before re-election?

:52:26. > :52:30.2020. It is a four-year term like the London mayor? Are you up for

:52:31. > :52:33.another term? I'm enjoying it. It is a challenge and one of the aspects

:52:34. > :52:38.of politics that people don't always take on, I'm a human being, a father

:52:39. > :52:43.with children and adjusting is a challenge. It will never catch on!

:52:44. > :52:48.But it is an enjoyable, meaningful job and it means something for me to

:52:49. > :52:53.give back and for the city. What happens? I understand devolution to

:52:54. > :52:57.cities and you could see how that is working in a relatively coherent

:52:58. > :53:02.political entity but what about devolution for those folks who don't

:53:03. > :53:06.live in cities? We are, that is the devolution deal in the west of

:53:07. > :53:10.England. We are worked up with North East Somerset and South

:53:11. > :53:14.Gloucestershire, with heavy rural populations. But again, I meet the

:53:15. > :53:18.leaders of my neighbours and that is where we have to be very pragmatic

:53:19. > :53:22.and say, how do we work together? There is some baseline where we are

:53:23. > :53:25.delivering for local populations and they need good quality transport,

:53:26. > :53:30.education and public health and stable homes and employment

:53:31. > :53:33.opportunities. If you want to bring transport together and organise on a

:53:34. > :53:39.strategic level, do you need a Greater Bristol? Our devolution deal

:53:40. > :53:44.was signed up around a Metro mayor so it is not a Greater Bristol, I

:53:45. > :53:49.have to respect the sovereignty of my neighbours. Very diplomatic. It

:53:50. > :53:52.is not colonial expansion by Bristol but we need to work across

:53:53. > :53:55.boundaries which is the only way the economy is going to get the maximum

:53:56. > :54:00.benefit from having that kind of joined up leadership. Transport will

:54:01. > :54:04.only work cross boundary and to be honest, most people's lives

:54:05. > :54:11.transcend those boundaries anyway. People move for work, retail,

:54:12. > :54:16.education also. I know that you maintain there is a different

:54:17. > :54:22.dynamic to local government or city government. Not totally. De Vrij to

:54:23. > :54:26.Westminster and I understand that, and the concerns of Westminster are

:54:27. > :54:29.not always the concerns of Bristol or Manchester and so on. --

:54:30. > :54:35.different to Westminster. What is the take -- your take on the state

:54:36. > :54:39.of the Westminster party at the moment? It is challenging, to be

:54:40. > :54:43.perfectly frank. It was a very challenging leadership contest and

:54:44. > :54:46.it was challenging for me as a city leader and how I navigated it. I was

:54:47. > :54:50.clear with journalists that I would not comment and I don't think it

:54:51. > :54:55.would have helped me as a mayor or more effectiveness in Bristol so I

:54:56. > :54:58.put the city first. -- my effectiveness. We have to be serious

:54:59. > :55:02.about healing and reconciliation. The city needs it and if we are to

:55:03. > :55:07.be a party that is going to speak to a world which is full of fractures,

:55:08. > :55:11.whether it is in the Middle East or increasing in our own country in

:55:12. > :55:15.inequality, we have do show ability to hold ourselves together across

:55:16. > :55:19.difference, if we want to lead a country that bases its own

:55:20. > :55:20.fractures. Thank you for joining us. I must come down and see you. You

:55:21. > :55:22.would be welcome. Jeremy Corbyn has talked

:55:23. > :55:25.about offering an olive branch to Labour MPs opposed

:55:26. > :55:27.to his leadership of the party. The MPs want that olive branch

:55:28. > :55:30.to come in the form of elections that would allow MPs to choose

:55:31. > :55:33.at least some of the Shadow Cabinet. But what do activists

:55:34. > :55:35.here in Liverpool think? It is an issue here behind closed

:55:36. > :55:39.doors but let's bring Who should have the power

:55:40. > :55:43.to select the Shadow Cabinet? Jeremy Corbyn or MPs,

:55:44. > :55:47.like under the old system? Who should select the Shadow

:55:48. > :55:49.Cabinet, Jeremy Corbyn... Good leaders have to

:55:50. > :55:54.select their own Cabinet. What is this all actually really

:55:55. > :56:03.about? It is about having Chukka Umunna

:56:04. > :56:06.or Liz Kendall in the Shadow Cabinet which would be a symbol

:56:07. > :56:09.that the Labour Party is not simply John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn,

:56:10. > :56:12.it is bigger and wider than that. You should have had a third section

:56:13. > :56:15.which is being put forward in that you have the MPs,

:56:16. > :56:18.Jeremy Corbyn and the members having an equal say,

:56:19. > :56:21.then it is democratic and it is not him or him,

:56:22. > :56:25.it is all of us. Does it matter if they are

:56:26. > :56:28.elected or not? Just one per person,

:56:29. > :56:32.one member, one vote, There's Hilary Benn, who got sacked

:56:33. > :56:42.from the Shadow Cabinet by Jeremy Who should select the Shadow

:56:43. > :56:50.Cabinet, Jeremy Corbyn or MPs? Is that Angela Rayner trying to

:56:51. > :56:59.run away? Who is the biggest dud that has been

:57:00. > :57:08.the Shadow Cabinet? Do you want to split it in half,

:57:09. > :57:17.crack it like an egg? Would you rather be put

:57:18. > :57:20.in the Shadow Cabinet by the leader You wouldn't expect Theresa May

:57:21. > :57:27.to ring up Peter Bone and ask who should be

:57:28. > :57:29.at International Development? What they have to do

:57:30. > :57:38.is to stop sabotaging. Oh, well, let's start with Alan

:57:39. > :57:45.Johnson. This is a stunt by

:57:46. > :57:51.ill-informed people. There you go, the results

:57:52. > :57:58.are in and the party is split evenly down the middle, 50-50, in fact,

:57:59. > :58:13.just like the ruling That may be the first time that

:58:14. > :58:18.Adam's unscientific balls have probably reflected what the opinion

:58:19. > :58:24.is. We are joined by John Pienaar. Not long until the Shadow

:58:25. > :58:31.Chancellor's speech. But on the Shadow Cabinet, why would Mr Corbyn,

:58:32. > :58:37.having just won the leadership for a second time in a year, and over as

:58:38. > :58:42.much power to the PRB deduces Shadow Cabinet? I think he is keen to hand

:58:43. > :58:46.over as little power as he has do. The idea of a fully elected Shadow

:58:47. > :58:49.Cabinet, elected by fellow MPs, has been a way back for some of those

:58:50. > :58:53.who marched away from the Shadow Cabinet, giving a rude sign to

:58:54. > :58:57.Jeremy Corbyn on the way and since then so much has been said about

:58:58. > :58:59.Jeremy Corbyn's lack of basic competence, his inability to unite

:59:00. > :59:03.the party N alone appeal to the country, that you can't say those

:59:04. > :59:08.things. The idea from some of those quite senior show -- Shadow Cabinet

:59:09. > :59:11.figures is you can get back in if you have a mandate, not from Jeremy

:59:12. > :59:14.Corbyn but from other MPs would still leaves the question

:59:15. > :59:17.unanswered, how do you unsay what has been said. And when the

:59:18. > :59:20.questions will be asked by you and me every Sunday, do you now endorsed

:59:21. > :59:25.Jeremy Corbyn at the best possible Prime Minister, what do you say?

:59:26. > :59:32.I've had a lot of hesitation so far, and I'm sure you have as well. The

:59:33. > :59:36.number of the centrist MPs here say that what they hope will happen is

:59:37. > :59:40.Mr Corbyn and John McDonnell will strengthen their grip on the party.

:59:41. > :59:44.-- is that what will happen. Now they have the membership, and the

:59:45. > :59:50.membership in time could change the nature of the PLP, the Parliamentary

:59:51. > :59:54.party, they want to get a grip on national executive committee and the

:59:55. > :59:58.regional organisers and so on. Is this a long march through the

:59:59. > :00:02.institutions? I think that has been part of the plan, not said out loud

:00:03. > :00:05.but that has been part of the plans and stay one, pretty much, since

:00:06. > :00:09.Jeremy Corbyn came in, knowing perfectly well he was surrounded by

:00:10. > :00:12.mostly most members of Parliament so how do you consolidate your position

:00:13. > :00:16.in the party? You do it through the mass membership who have come

:00:17. > :00:23.swinging in, in enormous numbers, mobilising them, hard and in that

:00:24. > :00:26.way, you can, not bypass your MPs, but sort of bypass them and get the

:00:27. > :00:35.policies you want from the people who support you.

:00:36. > :00:39.On policy, tramadol about make probably the second most important

:00:40. > :00:44.speech of this week, the most important being by Jeremy Corbyn,

:00:45. > :00:47.will the flesh out what he means quick and not previous Labour

:00:48. > :00:51.governments have been interventionist, I remember Harold

:00:52. > :00:55.Wilson's government was. Michael has a times and I will get up early in

:00:56. > :00:59.the morning to intervene. Do we really know -- Michael Heseltine. To

:01:00. > :01:04.know what it means in terms of trying to bailout the steel

:01:05. > :01:07.industry? The short answer is no. Intervention is a good thing it is

:01:08. > :01:12.also specifically a good thing when you look at what happened to tapas

:01:13. > :01:15.deal, that is the example given. But I were talking about picking winners

:01:16. > :01:20.up and down the country, getting involved in firms in the north of

:01:21. > :01:23.England, the South West of England? We are not given that kind of detail

:01:24. > :01:27.and we can't get into the nitty-gritty unless you have that

:01:28. > :01:33.kind of detail to work with. Unless you know the strategy itself. What

:01:34. > :01:39.about Labour's position on the terms of Brexit? There seems now to be an

:01:40. > :01:46.acceptance by John McDonnell that we don't remain a member of the single

:01:47. > :01:50.market, but we will have unspecified, as yet, access to the

:01:51. > :01:53.single market. There is room for further clarification, put it that

:01:54. > :01:58.way. With the government and the opposition. A lot of clarification.

:01:59. > :02:01.In the case of the Labour leadership vision, John McDonnell, I was

:02:02. > :02:09.talking to him yesterday morning and he was saying look, you have got to

:02:10. > :02:13.respect the will of the referendum. Not going the Owen Smith root of

:02:14. > :02:21.let's have a second referendum but he left open rejecting the terms of

:02:22. > :02:24.Brexit, and then maybe putting opposition in the manifesto, which

:02:25. > :02:28.begs the enormous question if you oppose the deal and you put it in

:02:29. > :02:36.the manifesto and you win, then what do you do? Wouldn't that mean you

:02:37. > :02:40.would have to apply for membership again, and if you have to reapply

:02:41. > :02:45.for membership, would that not mean you accept the euro, the Schengen

:02:46. > :02:48.free movement, and I don't think they will give us the rebate back.

:02:49. > :02:53.We know about this process is once the deal is done, when the terms are

:02:54. > :02:57.agreed, and remember the Article 50 process is not about coming to a

:02:58. > :03:01.deal, you have two years to come to a position whether you like it or

:03:02. > :03:10.not at the end of you take it and it. But there is only one crack at

:03:11. > :03:15.this. It is either trying to get back in stay where you are without a

:03:16. > :03:22.deal, with no deal at all. Is their concern among some in the party that

:03:23. > :03:26.this emphasis on borrowing to invest, and quite eye watering sums

:03:27. > :03:30.of money being talked about, ?500 billion, though it is split up in

:03:31. > :03:33.various ways. There was meant to be a private sector involvement in

:03:34. > :03:40.there as well, all a little bit vague. But if over polling shows

:03:41. > :03:47.that the party isn't quite trusted to manage the books, is coming out

:03:48. > :03:52.as a binge borrower, which is the phrase the Tories will probably use

:03:53. > :03:58.colour something like that, is that sensible? Quite, Andrew. When Labour

:03:59. > :04:01.likes of 30 points also behind the government, in terms of trust in

:04:02. > :04:12.economic competence, there is an enormous mountain to climb. This

:04:13. > :04:17.morning I was telling listening to John McDonnell, and it sounds like

:04:18. > :04:22.rather a lot of money to me. However many notes you put on, it looks to

:04:23. > :04:26.the man in the street like ?100 billion of their money being

:04:27. > :04:31.borrowed up front in the expectation of the economy taking off and paying

:04:32. > :04:35.it back later on. We will be joined later on by Paul Mason. He might be

:04:36. > :04:38.in the flesh some of it out in advance of the speech. Let's take

:04:39. > :04:43.you into the conference will now and have a look inside. There is Len

:04:44. > :04:47.McCluskey, the head of the biggest union in the country, a big

:04:48. > :04:51.supporter of Jeremy Corbyn. We have heard that the party's energy

:04:52. > :04:54.policy, we have have the announcement that the party would

:04:55. > :04:58.put a stop to fracking, and as we have been hearing there have been

:04:59. > :05:01.speeches from the Shadow Defence Secretary, Clive Lewis. We wanted to

:05:02. > :05:04.speak to him but we have lost and somehow, and if he is watching, come

:05:05. > :05:09.and talk to us. Emily Thornberry has been speaking as well at that and

:05:10. > :05:13.ethical foreign policy. Of course we are waiting for the big speech of

:05:14. > :05:17.the day, John McDonnell's second autumn conference speech as Shadow

:05:18. > :05:22.Chancellor. While we wait, better to tell is what might be in store than

:05:23. > :05:30.journalist of Channel 4 provenance, now Labour activist, Paul Mason.

:05:31. > :05:34.Welcome. Threw I'm not sure about Labour activist, it sounds like I am

:05:35. > :05:42.going to leap over the desk at you. . Flesh out for us this investment

:05:43. > :05:48.plan, where will the money come from? The idea is he's going to

:05:49. > :05:53.borrow 250 billion, and that leveraging European investment bank

:05:54. > :05:59.money, 100 billion plus, and they are going to use it... He is not

:06:00. > :06:03.going to leveraged any European investment bank money, he's going to

:06:04. > :06:13.try to get private money in the same way as the EAB. They will use a

:06:14. > :06:24.variety of sources, but they are using the VIP as a model. They are

:06:25. > :06:31.going to bellow. -- -- EIB. What businesses want is a stable,

:06:32. > :06:35.predictable environment for long-term investment. Labour whether

:06:36. > :06:41.it is in opposition or power has to start spelling out a framework for

:06:42. > :06:44.that is. But as you alluded to earlier, once the answer to

:06:45. > :06:47.everything is not the market, the answer is very difficult to come up

:06:48. > :06:50.with any can come up with wrong answers. The challenge for John

:06:51. > :06:54.McDonnell is to start spelling out what at the micro level they want to

:06:55. > :07:01.concentrate on when the start spending the money. Does the

:07:02. > :07:04.National investment bank, the government borrows 100 billion on

:07:05. > :07:11.its balance sheet, and the national investment bank gets that hundred

:07:12. > :07:14.billion? That is my understanding, that they will create regional

:07:15. > :07:17.investment balance. I am not privy to the full details of the speech

:07:18. > :07:23.but I think the move from simply saying we are against austerity, we

:07:24. > :07:26.will end the austerity. Ending austerity is now mainstream, Vergini

:07:27. > :07:31.20 wants to do it, the Chinese, the IMF is saying that. Saying this is

:07:32. > :07:34.not insignificant, it moves a further piece of the global

:07:35. > :07:45.decision-making architecture, albeit they are not in power, in favour of

:07:46. > :07:49.that renewed physical activity. But Steve NIB, where I come from, that

:07:50. > :07:54.is news in brief, but as it comes with that version at Labour's

:07:55. > :08:01.understanding of what exit is starting to change. Before we were

:08:02. > :08:05.thinking spent on things like HS2, HS three, bridges, tunnels, the rest

:08:06. > :08:08.of it. I think Labour has come to understand that you don't

:08:09. > :08:11.necessarily do all of that. And you have to start thinking about

:08:12. > :08:20.community level investment. That is why there will be a big thing in

:08:21. > :08:26.McDonnell's speech about developing responsible at it. It will be quite

:08:27. > :08:28.easy to build a HS3 somewhere, and whether the communities that are

:08:29. > :08:33.pretty dire at the memo just watched the trains go by. There will be a

:08:34. > :08:37.renewed emphasis on fostering a more vibrant co-operative sector in

:08:38. > :08:40.Britain. We have got quite a week cooperative sector, and the

:08:41. > :08:45.countries like Spain have some giant corpse that only successful. We're

:08:46. > :08:51.being told the reason Clive Lewis, the shadow defence spokesman, could

:08:52. > :08:55.not join as is that in the words of somebody, he is in the leader 's

:08:56. > :08:59.office currently arguing about the speech! Apparently the unit is over

:09:00. > :09:06.Trident. He would have thought Labour would argue about Trident at

:09:07. > :09:11.a conference. Of course Lewis is on record of being pro-maintenance of

:09:12. > :09:15.it in a different firm, not Trident but cruise missiles. It was

:09:16. > :09:18.something to do with what is in his speech. Earle the curb and

:09:19. > :09:23.leadership is not a monolithic leadership, you could Clive Lewis,

:09:24. > :09:29.Emily Thornberry, both have a threw more nuanced position on defence

:09:30. > :09:35.than him. National investment bank will it be expected to make a

:09:36. > :09:39.return? I have no idea. One would expect that the return is measured

:09:40. > :09:46.by economic growth, increased tax receipts over ten or 20 years. I

:09:47. > :09:49.think it is a policy decision. In the design of it you would see it in

:09:50. > :09:53.the next phase. It is an idea that has been around the sometime in

:09:54. > :09:56.Labour thinking, and he announced the basic idea over the summer when

:09:57. > :10:01.they were fighting the leadership thing. I think he will emphasise now

:10:02. > :10:04.we need to move to the implementation process. Of course in

:10:05. > :10:09.a democracy we would say let's have the Treasury model, let's see the

:10:10. > :10:12.Office for Budget Responsibility model it and hope Labour develop

:10:13. > :10:15.policy. They haven't got any of those resources, because the

:10:16. > :10:18.government won't give them, and of course Gordon Brown didn't give it

:10:19. > :10:22.to the Tories when he was in power it. But there are big university

:10:23. > :10:27.departments we can get on board, think tanks that I think Fleming and

:10:28. > :10:34.ready do that. So I think the next phase is the detail, but the idea is

:10:35. > :10:41.it is not a very difficult idea in modern thinking that states have a

:10:42. > :10:46.national fund that they use to shape the national income. Where does it

:10:47. > :10:49.work? Scandinavia, it works in places where countries just

:10:50. > :10:54.basically take an activist approach to investment. Sometimes they don't

:10:55. > :10:58.actually need the National Investment Bank because they have

:10:59. > :11:01.such good banking sectors. Look at the German banking sector, at the

:11:02. > :11:08.land level, the regional level and the local level, they are able to

:11:09. > :11:12.mobilise capital and fund it. The German regional banks, they are down

:11:13. > :11:16.to seven now, they don't do infrastructure investments. They did

:11:17. > :11:19.at one point. They ended up almost going bust because they put so much

:11:20. > :11:26.money into American sub-prime, and these were state-owned banks.

:11:27. > :11:33.McIlroy absolutely, apropos of that we will see McDonnell emphasise

:11:34. > :11:37.again today that in supporting the city, the pass putting arrangement

:11:38. > :11:41.with the Unitt, they will not give them a free pass to go precisely the

:11:42. > :11:45.route that the German banks ended up with in 2008. To come back to your

:11:46. > :11:55.question, the idea of regional investment banks funded by the banks

:11:56. > :11:59.is not Marxism. The private money would only come in as a return.

:12:00. > :12:04.Private money is not getting any return on anything, as you know

:12:05. > :12:10.Andrew, right now. Long-term bonds style investment is producing in

:12:11. > :12:13.some senses negative returns. As we do the unorthodox monetary policy we

:12:14. > :12:18.can expect more and more of the world's assets to be yielding less.

:12:19. > :12:22.I think we are in a low interest rate environment, let's see what

:12:23. > :12:25.environment it is a photo when Labour came into power. I think the

:12:26. > :12:30.return for the long-term investor will not be the problem. The problem

:12:31. > :12:33.is the execution, not ending up like Harold Wilson, backing a bunch of

:12:34. > :12:39.bad projects and doing this in a smart way and learning from the

:12:40. > :12:42.best. Would you pick winners? You have two. That is what the national

:12:43. > :12:46.enterprise board tried to do as well as mail out losers. What Labour has

:12:47. > :13:00.been learning from and being scored by, the work of people like Marianna

:13:01. > :13:04.Mazzucato. I know her work. You create an environment where you try

:13:05. > :13:08.to shape investment towards specific technologies and outcomes. One of

:13:09. > :13:16.those would-be green technology. It is a big thing waiting to happen in

:13:17. > :13:22.Britain, along the German lines. President Obama tried that. He put

:13:23. > :13:27.in a substantial amount of federal funding into green energy projects.

:13:28. > :13:34.Sa Lynda Bellingham the most famous one. It was $520 million, where is

:13:35. > :13:42.that money today? It proves the point. It is all gone. It proves the

:13:43. > :13:46.point that public investment strategies can go wrong. We are not

:13:47. > :13:50.going round a primrose path here, it is a difficult thing to do that we

:13:51. > :13:53.have to do it because we just don't want to leave the community after

:13:54. > :13:57.community setting with close ties streets, no transport links, no

:13:58. > :14:03.schools, under skilled. Firms within 20 miles of here missing thousands

:14:04. > :14:06.of Ph.D. Is because they cannot turn people with education into the right

:14:07. > :14:14.skills. The government has to do is to bridge the gaps. The example of

:14:15. > :14:16.Scandinavia, where you have long-term infrastructure investment,

:14:17. > :14:22.in those Scandinavian funds, they are backed by sovereign wealth. We

:14:23. > :14:26.haven't got any in this country. We are talking about a sovereign great

:14:27. > :14:31.hole in the ground. You are not talking about a sovereign fund. With

:14:32. > :14:35.Scandinavia that is where the structure comes from. If you have

:14:36. > :14:42.1.6 trillion debt, that has to be paid down first. The Norwegian is

:14:43. > :14:46.the big sovereign fund. They invest for people's pensions for the

:14:47. > :14:53.long-term payment of Norwegians pensions. It is a different concept.

:14:54. > :14:59.What you're hearing is a very borrow to invest strategy. He knows, they

:15:00. > :15:04.know, they need the expertise to turn it into reality, and that the

:15:05. > :15:09.design stage is just one stage of it. What happens if you lose all the

:15:10. > :15:14.money? How are you going to lose the money? Of course you could build dad

:15:15. > :15:19.projects coming could back hover crafts, we didn't need hovercraft in

:15:20. > :15:23.the end. Concorde? I quite liked Concord, I never went on it, I think

:15:24. > :15:33.he probably did. Yes, courtesy of the taxpayer. Yes, when we educate

:15:34. > :15:37.people from GCSE standard to Ph.D. Standard and they go into the

:15:38. > :15:42.workforce, the taxpayers invest in their skills, and we, the people,

:15:43. > :15:47.get tax back from their wages, and we get the fact that we have more

:15:48. > :15:52.innovative businesses. That is an investment, isn't it? The old BBC

:15:53. > :15:55.isn't against investing in skills and infrastructure? Of course not,

:15:56. > :16:01.but you can see a stroke return from investing in skills. Particularly

:16:02. > :16:03.the stems goes we are short of commerce science, technology,

:16:04. > :16:08.engineering, maths, there is a straight return, long-term return at

:16:09. > :16:12.a straight return to the country. That is different from investing in

:16:13. > :16:16.a supersonic plane by the state, that allows rich people to travel at

:16:17. > :16:20.high speeds, courtesy of working class taxpayers.

:16:21. > :16:26.I don't think we will be building Concorde either. But when Labour

:16:27. > :16:31.tried to outline this earlier, they put skills and human capital --

:16:32. > :16:34.human capital into the category of long-term investment. That was

:16:35. > :16:37.something at the time the old Cameron Osborne people trying to

:16:38. > :16:42.defend austerity were quite worried about because they were saying, "You

:16:43. > :16:45.are trying to get current spending, education spending, into an

:16:46. > :16:51.infrastructure fund", and they are manifestly going to try to do that

:16:52. > :16:58.if they are going to -- if they get power. We have just lead the

:16:59. > :17:01.surprise announcement from John McDonnell is that Labour would

:17:02. > :17:08.increase the National Living Wage to ?10. It is a kind of, why not ?11?

:17:09. > :17:13.By 2020. It will be close to ?10 by 2020 so it is not radical. It is

:17:14. > :17:16.closing the gap between the official government specified minimum wage

:17:17. > :17:22.and the living wage that is left over from the previous

:17:23. > :17:25.administration. My understanding is, what we now call... Let's just call

:17:26. > :17:34.it the minimum wage because that it would it is, that the new minimum

:17:35. > :17:39.wage will be about ?9.50 by 2019 anyway so the Tories could do that

:17:40. > :17:41.if they got back in in 2020. If you add to that rigid enforcement

:17:42. > :17:45.because the problem that working people who may be on their lunch

:17:46. > :17:49.break, short and though it may be, watching this will know is that all

:17:50. > :17:52.kinds of employers are chipping away at the base level with all kinds of

:17:53. > :17:59.fines, you know, charges, uniform costs. A Labour Inspectorate plus an

:18:00. > :18:02.active trade union movement that goes to employers and says they are

:18:03. > :18:05.not going to get away with it, the baseline is a ?10 per hour minimum

:18:06. > :18:10.wage by John McDonnell will signal that we want a high wage economy.

:18:11. > :18:15.Conservatives and Labour before them have built a low and stagnant wage

:18:16. > :18:19.economy to revive demand. This is pure Keynesianism, we need wage

:18:20. > :18:23.share of the economy to rise. One way of that is to raise the minimum

:18:24. > :18:26.wage and the other way to create more high skilled, high-paying jobs,

:18:27. > :18:30.hard to do but having the government behind it, not saying the market

:18:31. > :18:33.does it, is the essential difference now between radical social democracy

:18:34. > :18:39.which is what we have seen reborn in this hall, and stagnant, stale, old

:18:40. > :18:43.conservatism. It is the way you tell them! Of course, the more you put

:18:44. > :18:47.the minimum wage up, the more enforcement becomes important,

:18:48. > :18:50.doesn't it? Some employers, unscrupulous employers, will have an

:18:51. > :18:55.incentive to get round the minimum wage. You need to be seen to be

:18:56. > :18:58.enforcing it. That is so and the argument goes that it has been in

:18:59. > :19:01.force to anything like the kind of degree it might have been so far,

:19:02. > :19:05.there are still people working under the feeling all over the country. It

:19:06. > :19:09.is a fairly incremental increase. The TUC have been calling for a ?10

:19:10. > :19:14.minimum wage for a couple of years and Labour were nearly there at the

:19:15. > :19:18.time of the last election. As a big announcement goes, it is not exactly

:19:19. > :19:23.an earthquake. You might have been briefed by the wrong brief, who

:19:24. > :19:26.knows? You think it might be more than that? I think in terms of the

:19:27. > :19:31.biggest announcement he is going to make the man who knows? I don't see

:19:32. > :19:34.this as a massive, game changing thing, it is splashing out

:19:35. > :19:40.investment fund. I think there will be words about Co-op 's and some

:19:41. > :19:47.intent to do it. You might see some personnel changes announced. Who

:19:48. > :19:52.knows? Where? We are not getting a Shadow Cabinet reshuffle but I think

:19:53. > :19:56.over conference, we have begun to see people say... Let's go to the

:19:57. > :20:00.hall now. John McDonnell is going to the stage. A number of the delegates

:20:01. > :20:07.already getting on their feet to welcome him. So we will now hear

:20:08. > :20:10.from the Shadow Chancellor and we are expecting a number of policy

:20:11. > :20:15.announcements. John McDonnell. Wait until you hear what I have got

:20:16. > :20:19.to say! LAUGHTER Now the leadership election is over,

:20:20. > :20:27.I tell you, we have to become a government in waiting. APPLAUSE

:20:28. > :20:34.And election could come at any time. Theresa May has said that she will

:20:35. > :20:40.not be calling an early election. But when could anyone trust the word

:20:41. > :20:44.of a Tory leader? We have to prepare ourselves are not just to fight an

:20:45. > :20:49.election, but also for moving into government. So to do that

:20:50. > :20:52.successfully, we have to have the policies and the plans for

:20:53. > :20:56.implementation on the shelf in place for when we enter government,

:20:57. > :21:01.whenever that election comes. So everybody in the party, at every

:21:02. > :21:06.level, and in every role, needs to appreciate the sense of urgency of

:21:07. > :21:11.this task. In this speech, I want to address some of the key issues we

:21:12. > :21:14.will face and how we will face them. First, though, we need to appreciate

:21:15. > :21:20.the mess that the Tories are leaving behind when we go into government.

:21:21. > :21:23.Six years ago, six years on from when they promised to eliminate the

:21:24. > :21:28.government deficit in five years, they are nowhere near that goal. The

:21:29. > :21:33.national debt burden was supposed to be falling by last year and it is

:21:34. > :21:40.still rising. In monetary terms, it now stands at ?1.6 trillion. Our

:21:41. > :21:46.productivity has fallen far behind each hour worked in the US or

:21:47. > :21:50.Germany or France. It is one third more productive that each hour

:21:51. > :21:53.worked here. Our economy is failing on productivity because the Tories

:21:54. > :21:58.are failing to deliver the investment it needs. Government

:21:59. > :22:04.investment is still plans to fall in every year remaining of this

:22:05. > :22:07.Parliament. -- plans to fall. In the real world economy that our people

:22:08. > :22:12.live in, wages are still lower than they were before the global

:22:13. > :22:16.financial crisis in 2008. They are now at least -- there are now at

:22:17. > :22:21.least 800,000 people on zero hours contracts, unable to plan from one

:22:22. > :22:26.week to the next and the number continues to rise. There's Nellie

:22:27. > :22:30.500,000 in bogus self-employment. 86% of austerity cuts have fallen on

:22:31. > :22:34.women. Tragically, there are nearly 4 million children living in

:22:35. > :22:41.poverty. This isn't right, is it? In the fifth richest economy in the

:22:42. > :22:46.world, poverty on that scale. So let's talk about the immediate

:22:47. > :22:49.issues facing us. On Brexit, we campaigned to Remain and we

:22:50. > :22:54.campaigned hard. But we have to respect the decision of the

:22:55. > :22:58.referendum. But that doesn't mean we have two acts that what the Tories

:22:59. > :23:03.serve up for our future relationship with Europe. -- have two except

:23:04. > :23:07.what. Since Brexit, the Tories have come up with no plan whatsoever.

:23:08. > :23:12.They have no clue. Half of them want a hard Brexit, to walk away from 30

:23:13. > :23:15.years of investment in our relationship with Europe. Some are

:23:16. > :23:19.just paralysed by the scale of the mess they created. So what we will

:23:20. > :23:23.do is we will be working with our socialist and social Democrat

:23:24. > :23:26.colleagues across Europe and our aim is to create a new Europe which

:23:27. > :23:32.builds upon the benefits of the EU but tackles the perceived this

:23:33. > :23:36.benefits. I set out in Labour's red lines on the Brexit negotiations a

:23:37. > :23:41.few days after the vote, so let's get it straight. We have to protect

:23:42. > :23:49.jobs. We will seek to preserve access to the single market for

:23:50. > :23:53.goods and services. APPLAUSE Today, access to the single market

:23:54. > :23:57.requires free movement of labour. But we will address the concerns

:23:58. > :24:00.that people have raised in the undercutting of wages and conditions

:24:01. > :24:06.and the pressure on local public services. I tell you this, we will

:24:07. > :24:14.not let the Tories bargain away our workers' writes, either. APPLAUSE

:24:15. > :24:17.We will defend the rights of EU National that live and work here,

:24:18. > :24:26.and UK citizens currently living and working in Europe. APPLAUSE

:24:27. > :24:28.We'd were all appalled at the attacks that took place on the

:24:29. > :24:36.Polish community in our country following the Brexit wrote. Let's be

:24:37. > :24:45.clear, as a party, we will always stand up against racism and

:24:46. > :24:52.xenophobia in any form. APPLAUSE In the negotiations, we also want

:24:53. > :24:59.Britain to keep its stake in the European investment bank. At the

:25:00. > :25:00.centre of the negotiations is Britain's financial services

:25:01. > :25:04.industry. Our financial services have been placed under threat as a

:25:05. > :25:10.result of the votes to leave. Labour has said clearly we will support

:25:11. > :25:14.access to European markets for the financial sector. But our financial

:25:15. > :25:20.services must understand that 2008 must never happen again. We must

:25:21. > :25:25.never... APPLAUSE The message is clear to them, we

:25:26. > :25:31.will not tolerate a return to the casino economy that contributed to

:25:32. > :25:34.that crash, ever again. We will support financial services where

:25:35. > :25:39.they deliver a clear benefit for the whole community, not just enriching

:25:40. > :25:43.a lucky few. We will work with the finance sector to develop its new

:25:44. > :25:46.deal with finance for the British people. We will fight for the best

:25:47. > :25:57.possible Brexit deal for the British people. And there will be no more

:25:58. > :26:02.support for TTip or any other trade deal that promotes deregulation or

:26:03. > :26:08.privatisation here or across Europe. APPLAUSE

:26:09. > :26:12.And we will make sure that any future Labour government has the

:26:13. > :26:16.power to intervene in our economy in interests of the whole country. For

:26:17. > :26:20.Britain to prosper in that new Europe and of the world stage, our

:26:21. > :26:24.next major challenge is to call a halt to this government's austerity

:26:25. > :26:29.programme. The Conservatives... APPLAUSE

:26:30. > :26:33.The Conservative Party built upon the disaster of the 2008 financial

:26:34. > :26:37.crisis by introducing an austerity programme that has made the impact

:26:38. > :26:41.of the economic crisis more prolonged, protected the

:26:42. > :26:45.corporations and the rich, and made the rest of society pay for the

:26:46. > :26:49.mistakes and greed of the speculators that caused the crash.

:26:50. > :26:53.Last year, this conference determined that this party would

:26:54. > :27:00.oppose austerity and that is exactly what we have done. We have had some

:27:01. > :27:06.successes. We forced the reversal of tax credit cuts. We also thought and

:27:07. > :27:11.won to have the personal independence payments cut scrapped.

:27:12. > :27:15.APPLAUSE -- fought and won. Sometimes in this

:27:16. > :27:18.movement, we don't thank people enough so I want to thank Owen Smith

:27:19. > :27:20.for the work he has done working with Jeremy to defeat the Tories on

:27:21. > :27:34.this issue. APPLAUSE And I want to thank Angela Smith and

:27:35. > :27:43.her team in the Lords for the terrific work the Lords team has

:27:44. > :27:47.done to defeat the Tories. APPLAUSE I say that as someone who has

:27:48. > :27:51.campaigned to abolish them for 30 years! I am having a rethink! These

:27:52. > :27:56.are tangible victories that are making a real difference to people's

:27:57. > :28:06.lives. I tell you, this is what we can achieve, when we are united.

:28:07. > :28:11.APPLAUSE So when we go into government

:28:12. > :28:15.United, be clear, be absolutely clear, we will end this government's

:28:16. > :28:19.austerity programme that has damaged so many lives and so many

:28:20. > :28:23.communities. But the first step, yes, is opposing austerity, the

:28:24. > :28:27.second is creating the alternative. So exactly as our economic adviser,

:28:28. > :28:32.Nobel Prize winner Joe Stiglitz said, we have to rewrite the rules

:28:33. > :28:36.of the economy. We will rewrite the rules for the benefit of working

:28:37. > :28:41.people on taxes, on investment and how our economic institutions work.

:28:42. > :28:44.On tax, we know we can't run the best public services in the world on

:28:45. > :28:53.a flagging economy with a tax system that does not tax fairly or

:28:54. > :28:57.effectively. I want to congratulate a group of people as well, and

:28:58. > :29:00.Jonathan Reynolds in particular, because the criticisms on the left

:29:01. > :29:07.that he is a representative of came up with their slogan, the hashtag,

:29:08. > :29:17.Patriots pay their taxes. It is a great slogan. Patriots to pay their

:29:18. > :29:20.taxes. -- do pay. APPLAUSE Labour has already set the pace on

:29:21. > :29:25.tackling tax avoidance and tax evasion. We launched our tax

:29:26. > :29:29.transparency and enforcement programme to force the government

:29:30. > :29:32.into action. Again, I would like to thank Rebecca Lauren Baillie for

:29:33. > :29:40.leading the Labour charge in Parliament to hold the tax dodgers

:29:41. > :29:44.to account. APPLAUSE She has been ably backed up by any

:29:45. > :29:48.member of our team, petered out, who has again stepped into the breach

:29:49. > :29:57.and fought in Parliament for every principle we have put forward. --

:29:58. > :30:01.Peter Dowd. And I want to congratulate Caroline Flint, who

:30:02. > :30:04.forced an amendment to the Finance Bill, to ensure country by country

:30:05. > :30:14.reporting is now back on the agenda. APPLAUSE

:30:15. > :30:18.The publication of the Panama Papers through sunlight on the scale of tax

:30:19. > :30:23.evasion and avoidance. Some of the largest firms in the City of London

:30:24. > :30:29.are up to it -- up to their necks in it. HSBC alone accounted for more

:30:30. > :30:33.than 2300 shell companies established to help the super-rich

:30:34. > :30:40.duck their taxes. In government, we will end the scourge of tax

:30:41. > :30:49.avoidance. We will end it. APPLAUSE We will create a new tax enforcement

:30:50. > :30:55.unit at HMRC, doubling the number of staff investigating wealthy tax

:30:56. > :30:58.avoidance. We will... APPLAUSE We will ban tax dodging companies

:30:59. > :31:06.from winning public sector contracts. APPLAUSE

:31:07. > :31:12.And we will... APPLAUSE And we will ensure that all British

:31:13. > :31:16.Crown dependencies and overseas territories introduce a full, public

:31:17. > :31:20.register of company owners and beneficiaries. We will throw light

:31:21. > :31:30.on where the tax dodgers are hiding their money. APPLAUSE

:31:31. > :31:37.A review of HMRC has also revealed the corporate capture of the tax

:31:38. > :31:42.system, and how staff cuts are undermining our ability to create

:31:43. > :31:45.the taxes we need. I would like to thank the team for the expertise

:31:46. > :31:55.they have provided us in drawing up this review. The next stage will be

:31:56. > :31:59.to develop the legislation and international agreements needed to

:32:00. > :32:03.close tax havens and end tax abuse. And I would believe this assurance,

:32:04. > :32:07.when we go back into government will make sure HMRC has the staffing, the

:32:08. > :32:10.resources and the legal powers to close down the tax avoidance

:32:11. > :32:20.industry that has grown up so in this country. APPLAUSE

:32:21. > :32:24.But we have to do more than stop tax avoidance. The burden of taxation as

:32:25. > :32:28.a whole now fails to heavily on those least able to pay full stop so

:32:29. > :32:33.let me make it clear, in this coming period we will be developing the

:32:34. > :32:36.policies that will shift the tax burden fairly away from those who

:32:37. > :32:46.earn wages and salaries and onto those who hold wealth. APPLAUSE

:32:47. > :32:50.Turning to investment, as I have said before, labour as a party of

:32:51. > :32:56.government needs to think not just about how we spend money, but how we

:32:57. > :32:59.earn it. I have announced a ?250 billion investment programme that

:33:00. > :33:02.will ensure no community is left behind. This is the scale of

:33:03. > :33:06.investment that independent experts say will start to bring Britain's

:33:07. > :33:12.infrastructure into the 21st century. It means putting the

:33:13. > :33:15.investment in place that will transform our energy system,

:33:16. > :33:19.providing cheap, low carbon electricity. It means ensuring that

:33:20. > :33:23.every plant in the country has access to superfast broadband that

:33:24. > :33:28.during the best in the world. It means delivering the transport

:33:29. > :33:30.deliveries, including HS3 in the north-west of England, to unlock the

:33:31. > :33:35.potential of the whole country. But for too long now, major decisions

:33:36. > :33:41.about what and where to invest have been taken by Whitehall and the

:33:42. > :33:44.city. The result? And investment and decline across the country, so it's

:33:45. > :33:53.time for our regions and localities to take control, take back control.

:33:54. > :34:00.So we will create new institutions not run by the old elite circles,

:34:01. > :34:04.are National Investment Bank well sustain a new, more productive

:34:05. > :34:08.economy. It will be backed up by a network of regional development

:34:09. > :34:15.banks, with a clear-cut mandate to supply finance to regional and local

:34:16. > :34:18.economies. It is also a disgrace that Arsenal businesses can't get

:34:19. > :34:23.the finances they need to grow. Our financial system is letting them

:34:24. > :34:27.down badly at the moment. The new regional develop and banks will have

:34:28. > :34:31.a mandate to provide the long-term investment they need, but we will go

:34:32. > :34:33.further than this. We will shake up our major corporations work and

:34:34. > :34:39.change how our economy is owned and managed. We will clamp down on the

:34:40. > :34:46.abuses of power at the very top. Under Labour, there will be Nemeth

:34:47. > :34:57.Philip Greens at all. APPLAUSE We will legislate to write company

:34:58. > :34:59.law to prevent it. We will introduce legislation to ban company is taking

:35:00. > :35:10.on excessive debt to pay out dividends to shareholders. And we

:35:11. > :35:16.will rewrite the tax takeover code to make sure every takeover proposal

:35:17. > :35:22.has a clear plan in place to pay workers and pensioners. We will

:35:23. > :35:29.protect their pensions. APPLAUSE But we can do more to transform our

:35:30. > :35:33.economy for working people. Theresa May has spoken about worker

:35:34. > :35:38.representation on boards. It is good to see her following our lead. But

:35:39. > :35:41.we know that meant workers own and manage their companies, those

:35:42. > :35:46.businesses last longer and are more productive. If we want patient,

:35:47. > :35:50.long-term investment and high-quality firms, what better way

:35:51. > :35:56.to do it than to give employees themselves a clear stake in both. So

:35:57. > :36:01.Corporation and collaboration is how the emerging economy of the future

:36:02. > :36:05.functions. So we will look to at least double our co-operative sector

:36:06. > :36:15.in this country, so it matches those in Germany and the US. APPLAUSE

:36:16. > :36:19.We will build on the good example of Labour councils like Preston here in

:36:20. > :36:21.the north-west, using public procurement to support cooperative

:36:22. > :36:27.is whether they can. Yes, we will help to create 200 local energy

:36:28. > :36:32.companies and 1000 energy cooperatives, breaking the monopoly

:36:33. > :36:45.of the big six producers. APPLAUSE We will introduce a right to own,

:36:46. > :36:48.giving workers first refusal on a proposal for a worker ownership when

:36:49. > :36:59.a company faces change of ownership foreclosure. A right to own for

:37:00. > :37:02.workers. So the next Labour government will promote a menace

:37:03. > :37:05.once in cooperative and worker ownership. The new leadership

:37:06. > :37:09.develop and banks will be tasked with supplying the capital that a

:37:10. > :37:13.new generation of business owners will need to succeed. We will

:37:14. > :37:22.support business hubs around the country. I visited Make Liverpool

:37:23. > :37:25.yesterday, the next Labour government will provide support to

:37:26. > :37:31.established business hubs in every town and city, every town and city.

:37:32. > :37:35.APPLAUSE We know the economy is changing,

:37:36. > :37:41.with more people self employed than ever before. We need to think

:37:42. > :37:44.creatively about how to respond, so we'll be taking a serious look about

:37:45. > :37:50.how to make the welfare system better support the self-employed.

:37:51. > :37:53.I'm also interested in the potential of a universal Basic income. I want

:37:54. > :37:59.to learn from the experiments that are taking place across Europe. But

:38:00. > :38:01.you know, until working people have proper protections at work, the

:38:02. > :38:07.labour market will always work against them. So to achieve fair

:38:08. > :38:15.wages, the next Labour government will look to implement the

:38:16. > :38:19.recommendations of the report. We will reintroduce sectoral collective

:38:20. > :38:20.bargaining across the economy, ending the race to the bottom.

:38:21. > :38:34.APPLAUSE And I give you this commitment: in

:38:35. > :38:35.the first 100 days of our Labour government, we will repeal of the

:38:36. > :38:53.trade union act. CHEERING Because what happens when trade

:38:54. > :38:58.unions are weakened? I'll tell you what happens, over 200,000 workers

:38:59. > :39:03.in the UK are receiving less than the minimum wage set down in love.

:39:04. > :39:06.This is totally unacceptable. Under Labour, we will properly resource

:39:07. > :39:11.HMRC and the gang masters and labour abuse authority to make sure they

:39:12. > :39:22.are no more national scandals like Mike Ashley Sports Direct. APPLAUSE

:39:23. > :39:24.And our vision for a higher wage economy with everyone receiving

:39:25. > :39:29.their Sergi 's doesn't end there. I have spoken before about building on

:39:30. > :39:33.the great achievements of previous Labour governments will stop yes,

:39:34. > :39:38.and one of the greatest achievement of the government elected in 1997

:39:39. > :39:42.was the establishment of a national minimum wage, lifting millions out

:39:43. > :39:47.of poverty. And I pay tribute to that government for doing it.

:39:48. > :39:55.APPLAUSE But, remember, remember, the Tories

:39:56. > :40:01.opposed it, claiming it would cost millions of jobs. But, united

:40:02. > :40:05.purpose, we won the argument. Under the next Labour government, everyone

:40:06. > :40:11.will earn enough to live on. When we win the next election, we will write

:40:12. > :40:24.into law a real living wage. APPLAUSE

:40:25. > :40:36.We'll charge a new living wage bloody, and independent forecasts

:40:37. > :40:44.suggest this will be over ?10 an hour. This will be part of our new

:40:45. > :40:48.bargain in the workplace. But we know that small businesses need to

:40:49. > :40:52.be part of that bargain, and that's why we'll also be publishing

:40:53. > :40:55.proposals to help businesses implement the living wage,

:40:56. > :40:59.particularly small and medium-sized companies. We will be examining a

:41:00. > :41:01.number of ideas, including the expansion and reform of employment

:41:02. > :41:06.allowance, to make sure this historic step forward, improving the

:41:07. > :41:11.living standards of the poorest paid, does not impact upon hours of

:41:12. > :41:15.employment. Backed up by our commitment to investment, this means

:41:16. > :41:20.we will end the scourge of poverty pay in this country, once and for.

:41:21. > :41:26.APPLAUSE -- once and for all. Decent pay is

:41:27. > :41:29.not just fundamentally a right, it is good for business, it is good for

:41:30. > :41:33.employees and it is good for Britain. But we need a new deal

:41:34. > :41:37.across the whole of our economy, because whatever we do in Britain,

:41:38. > :41:42.the old rules of the global economy are being rewritten for us. The wins

:41:43. > :41:45.of globalisation are blowing in a different direction now, they are

:41:46. > :41:49.playing against the belief in the free market, and in favour of

:41:50. > :41:52.intervention. Look at the steel crisis, with the world market

:41:53. > :41:57.flooded by cheap steel, major governments moved to particular

:41:58. > :42:02.their domestic steel injuries forced up ours did not until we pushed them

:42:03. > :42:06.into it, as a result of a community and trade union and Labour campaign.

:42:07. > :42:10.But they are so blinkered by the eulogy that they can't see how the

:42:11. > :42:14.world is changing. Good business doesn't need no government. Good

:42:15. > :42:23.business needs good government. APPLAUSE

:42:24. > :42:26.And the best governments today, right the way across the world,

:42:27. > :42:34.recognise that they need to support their economies, because the way the

:42:35. > :42:36.world works is changing. For decades, manufacturing jobs

:42:37. > :42:41.disappeared, as producers look for the cheapest labour they could find.

:42:42. > :42:45.Today, one in six manufacturers in the UK are bringing jobs back to

:42:46. > :42:48.Britain. That's because production today is about locating cluster

:42:49. > :42:53.markets and drawing upon the highly skilled labour and high-quality

:42:54. > :42:58.investment. Digital technology means production can be smaller scale, in

:42:59. > :43:03.smaller, faster firms, dependent on cooperation and collaboration. Not

:43:04. > :43:08.to eat dog competition. The economies that are making best use

:43:09. > :43:12.of this shift are those with governments that understand it is

:43:13. > :43:17.taking place, and support new industries and small businesses. So

:43:18. > :43:20.we could be part of that change here. There is huge potential in

:43:21. > :43:26.this country, and in every part of the country. We have an immense

:43:27. > :43:29.heritage of scientific research, and engineering expertise with that

:43:30. > :43:33.today, our science system is a world leader. We have natural resources

:43:34. > :43:37.that could make us world leaders in renewables. We have talent and

:43:38. > :43:40.ambition in every part of the country, yet at every stage, we have

:43:41. > :43:46.a government that fails to reach that potential. It has cut

:43:47. > :43:49.scientific research spending, slashed subsidies to renewables,

:43:50. > :43:54.threatening tens of thousands of jobs, and it plans to cut essential

:43:55. > :44:01.investment in transport, energy and housing across the country. Be

:44:02. > :44:03.certain, the next Labour government will be an interventionist

:44:04. > :44:08.government, we will not stand by like this one and the Ahki

:44:09. > :44:13.industries flounder and our future prosperity but at risk. When we

:44:14. > :44:15.return to government, we will implement a comprehensive industrial

:44:16. > :44:19.strategy, developed in partnership with trade unions and employers and

:44:20. > :44:24.the wider community. After Brexit, we want to see a red assaults in

:44:25. > :44:28.British manufacturing, and as we have committed ourselves, our

:44:29. > :44:31.government will create an entrepreneurial state that works

:44:32. > :44:34.with wealth creators, the workers and the entrepreneurs, to create the

:44:35. > :44:39.products and the markets that will secure our long-term prosperity. Let

:44:40. > :44:45.me just say this in conclusion, on a personal note. I'm so pleased that

:44:46. > :44:53.this conference is being held in Liverpool. I was born in this city,

:44:54. > :44:56.not far from here. My dad was a Liverpool blocker and my mum was a

:44:57. > :45:02.cleaner, and they worked for 30 years behind a BHS store counter. I

:45:03. > :45:05.was part of that 1960s generation -- Liverpool dock. We lived in not so

:45:06. > :45:10.sure logical studies have described as some of the worst slum conditions

:45:11. > :45:14.that have existed in this country. We just called it home. As the

:45:15. > :45:18.result of a Labour government, I remember the day when we celebrated

:45:19. > :45:22.moving into our council house. My brother and I had a bedroom of our

:45:23. > :45:26.own for the first time, a garden front and rear. Both of us were born

:45:27. > :45:31.in NHS hospitals, both of us had a great free education. There was an

:45:32. > :45:34.atmosphere of eternal optimism. Our generation always thought that from

:45:35. > :45:37.here on there would always be a steady improvement in people's

:45:38. > :45:42.living standards. We expected the lives that each generation would

:45:43. > :45:47.improve upon the last. But successive Tory governments put an

:45:48. > :45:51.end to that. Under Jeremy's leadership, I believe that we can

:45:52. > :45:56.restore that optimism, people's faith in the future. So I say this,

:45:57. > :45:57.in the birthplace of John Lennon, it falls to us to inspire people to

:45:58. > :46:13.imagine again. APPLAUSE Imagined the society... APPLAUSE

:46:14. > :46:19.Imagine... Imagine the society we can create. It is a society that is

:46:20. > :46:24.radically transformed, radically fairer, more equal, more democratic,

:46:25. > :46:28.yes, based upon a prosperous economy that is economically and

:46:29. > :46:32.environmentally sustainable but where that prosperity is shared by

:46:33. > :46:37.all. That is our vision to rebuild and transform Britain. In this

:46:38. > :46:49.party, you no longer have to whisper its name, it is called socialism.

:46:50. > :46:54.APPLAUSE STUDIO: And John McDonnell finishes

:46:55. > :46:58.his speech to the Labour Party conference with the word solidarity,

:46:59. > :47:01.as he did last year but before that, saying socialism was no longer a

:47:02. > :47:05.word that you had to apologise for in the Labour Party. He finished by

:47:06. > :47:12.quoting John Lennon and Imagine in the city of Liverpool, which was a

:47:13. > :47:15.natural thing to do. He said there would be no more support for

:47:16. > :47:19.transatlantic trade deals of the sort that is currently being

:47:20. > :47:22.negotiated, under a Labour government, HMRC would be much

:47:23. > :47:28.tougher in enforcing those who were trying to dodge or evade tax, no

:47:29. > :47:35.public contracts for tax evading companies, he said. He announced

:47:36. > :47:40.again the ?250 billion investment programme for a national investment

:47:41. > :47:42.bank, backed up by he says, regional investment banks throughout the

:47:43. > :47:48.country. He said there would be no more Philip greens under Labour. He

:47:49. > :47:54.wanted to double the size of the co-op sector. There would be a right

:47:55. > :47:58.to own for workers when companies came up for sale. Interesting to see

:47:59. > :48:02.how that would work but what was really popular was that he said he

:48:03. > :48:06.would repeal the trade union act in the first 100 days of a Labour

:48:07. > :48:10.government. Most of the reforms that were put in the Thatcher years and

:48:11. > :48:15.were left largely untouched in the Blair and Brown years. And he

:48:16. > :48:21.announced that he would want is the new minimum wage, well, he called it

:48:22. > :48:25.a new National Living Wage, from 2020 onwards, over ?10 per hour.

:48:26. > :48:28.Many other things in it too but that gives you a flavour of the kind of

:48:29. > :48:30.things he was proposing. John Pienaar?

:48:31. > :48:34.One of the benefits for John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn of

:48:35. > :48:37.winning the Civil War is they now have space to develop their ideas

:48:38. > :48:40.and set up what a future Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn would

:48:41. > :48:44.look like. The challenge for them is that we are listening and we would

:48:45. > :48:47.like to note what a Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn would

:48:48. > :48:51.look like. This is still obviously a very early stage of the process.

:48:52. > :48:55.There are any number of questions being stacked up here. And a

:48:56. > :48:58.requirement for some clarification. We spoke a moment ago about his

:48:59. > :49:02.comprehensive industrial strategy but what is that going to look like

:49:03. > :49:06.beyond being far more locally based? We know that is part of the pan and

:49:07. > :49:09.it is broadly socialist. The question of Europe and Brexit, he

:49:10. > :49:13.talked about access to the single market. What does that mean? The

:49:14. > :49:16.very web access implies some kind of compromise from full membership and

:49:17. > :49:19.all that goes with it. Now they will presumably have to be some kind of

:49:20. > :49:23.trade-off with freedom of movement. That was a big question with no real

:49:24. > :49:26.answers beyond what we have heard before about the need to take on the

:49:27. > :49:39.threat of wages being undercut and all of that kind of thing, the ideas

:49:40. > :49:41.we have heard in the past. A of emphasis on tax avoidance to the

:49:42. > :49:43.point of uttering threats to companies who engage in tax

:49:44. > :49:45.avoidance, that they could lose government contracts. But tax

:49:46. > :49:48.avoidance is what happens when you have a tax code. We are not talking

:49:49. > :49:51.about tax evasion, which is a legal, tax avoidance is what every company

:49:52. > :49:54.tries to do one way or the other. The thicker the tax code gets, and

:49:55. > :50:01.what is it now? 2000 pages, the more loopholes. It is 15,000 pages. That

:50:02. > :50:08.is just in the last week! George Osborne added another third to what

:50:09. > :50:12.had already been doubled. Wealth taxes on the agenda. He hinted at

:50:13. > :50:16.that. Some way of dealing with wealth rather than earnings so the

:50:17. > :50:20.mansion tax but what else? Many questions. It is good to be able to

:50:21. > :50:24.start talking about policy and drill down to see what they think and how

:50:25. > :50:30.far the thinking has gone. Paul Mason, your reaction? The keyword

:50:31. > :50:34.was intervention. Some of this came Xeon macroeconomic policy like ?250

:50:35. > :50:39.billion spending, raising wages through the living wage, is classic

:50:40. > :50:44.canes, but the next phase for Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell is the

:50:45. > :50:48.interventionist idea. -- some of this Keynesian macroeconomic policy.

:50:49. > :50:52.It is reaching inside companies and saying you can't do this commie

:50:53. > :50:57.can't not pay the minimum wage, you can't... He was very clear, and

:50:58. > :51:01.let's be clear, we are not talking about evasion, illegality, we are

:51:02. > :51:04.talking about the legitimate tax avoidance that means companies like

:51:05. > :51:09.Apple and Google allegedly pay less tax than they should, is now going

:51:10. > :51:12.to be subjected to contract compliance rules in the public

:51:13. > :51:17.sector. Does that mean the government will not buy iPhones? It

:51:18. > :51:22.may do and let's think about this, before Brexit, this contract

:51:23. > :51:25.compliance was not possible. That is an interesting thing, John McDonnell

:51:26. > :51:28.now says we have Brexit and there are no EU rules to worry about, if

:51:29. > :51:33.we want to intervene in the private sector and change it, we will do it.

:51:34. > :51:40.That, plus the trade union act, massive applause and I saw some

:51:41. > :51:42.people stand up at the end which I think John McDonnell and Jeremy

:51:43. > :51:45.Corbyn are quite happy with at this conference! We are all obsessed with

:51:46. > :51:49.Momentum and entry is. I read that as a very trade union influenced

:51:50. > :51:54.speech and not just by Unite that supports them, there were big throw

:51:55. > :51:57.out to people like the GMB who has been wavering in their support for

:51:58. > :52:01.the new government. I'm sure it will be popular with the trade unions.

:52:02. > :52:06.John, picking up anything on Clive Lewis and this argument he is having

:52:07. > :52:09.with Mr Corbyn about Trident? We seem to have gathered there was a

:52:10. > :52:13.meeting ahead of the speech and the line in the speech was in dispute as

:52:14. > :52:16.we understand it and as we have been discussing, nuances of difference

:52:17. > :52:19.between the two of them, mainly focused on all of that but the

:52:20. > :52:23.outcome we don't yet know and precisely how it will lead onto

:52:24. > :52:27.policy, which is still a work in progress, very much. We have the

:52:28. > :52:29.rest of the day and week to find. Thank you for joining us.

:52:30. > :52:31.So Mr McDonnell told the conference that he wanted to end

:52:32. > :52:34.the "scourge of poverty pay", and one way he says he'll do this

:52:35. > :52:40.He said it would be set by an independent body.

:52:41. > :52:47.Let's just remind you what he had to say.

:52:48. > :52:53.When we win the next election, we will write into law a real living

:52:54. > :53:09.wage. APPLAUSE We will charge a new living wage

:53:10. > :53:14.review body with the task of setting it at the level needed for a decent

:53:15. > :53:23.life, independent forecasts suggest this will be over ?10 per hour. John

:53:24. > :53:26.McDonnell on the announcement that he had managed to hold back and not

:53:27. > :53:28.leaked in advance and we would like to know what that is.

:53:29. > :53:31.Now, we asked for an interview with John McDonnell or one

:53:32. > :53:35.of his colleagues on Labour's economic team so we could scrutinise

:53:36. > :53:36.the party's developing economic policy.

:53:37. > :53:38.But none of them were apparently available.

:53:39. > :53:40.But the Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister Catherine West has agreed

:53:41. > :53:52.Good to see you. He is going to invest ?250 billion investment

:53:53. > :53:58.banks, national and regional. Where will the money come from? Partly

:53:59. > :54:01.through the investment bank arrangement in the European Union,

:54:02. > :54:05.which of course... We did not want to leave the European Union for this

:54:06. > :54:10.very reason that those facilities are available to us. Excuse me, the

:54:11. > :54:13.European investment bank will give us this money? It will assist as one

:54:14. > :54:17.of the tools which will bring together the funding but in terms of

:54:18. > :54:21.the money that actually exists, the quantitative easing programme which

:54:22. > :54:25.the government has been using since 2008, there are financial mechanisms

:54:26. > :54:28.and ways of investment. We know that in the Autumn Statement, Phillip

:54:29. > :54:33.Hammond will be looking at investment. I guess it is the same

:54:34. > :54:36.question. Let me try to an picked this a bit. Have you talked to the

:54:37. > :54:43.European investment bank to find out if they will contribute to this ?250

:54:44. > :54:47.billion? We will approach them. But you haven't? We can use the same

:54:48. > :54:51.mechanisms that Mr Hammond will be using. But the European investment

:54:52. > :54:53.bank mechanism is to put public money in and then leveraged it by

:54:54. > :54:59.getting more private money in. It does not give money to national

:55:00. > :55:03.investment banks. So you have not discussed this yet? We will be using

:55:04. > :55:08.the same tools which Mr Hammond is going to use when he announces it in

:55:09. > :55:13.the Autumn Statement. Forgive me, we will deal with Mr Hammond when we

:55:14. > :55:17.deal with him -- get him and I get a chance to interview him. Let's stick

:55:18. > :55:20.with what John McDonnell announced today. You mentioned the Bank of

:55:21. > :55:23.England's quantitative easing which is essentially the electronic

:55:24. > :55:28.printing of money. Will you just print money to finance this ?250

:55:29. > :55:32.billion? No, I think the point is this, what we had all hoped after

:55:33. > :55:36.2008 was that QE would have an effect on the real economy but

:55:37. > :55:41.instead, it has led to the driving down of wages. Yes, growth is around

:55:42. > :55:49.1% which is a good thing. No, it's not commit an average of 2.5%. Not

:55:50. > :55:56.1%. -- it's not, it is on average. In terms of wages and people's

:55:57. > :56:01.pockets... Bayard growing by 2.3%. Not in the public sector. But they

:56:02. > :56:05.are growing by an average of 2.3%. In certain sectors, wages are

:56:06. > :56:10.flatter than they have ever been. RUC began to print money, going to

:56:11. > :56:13.monetise... We are going to use the same mechanisms that Mr Hammond will

:56:14. > :56:19.when he announces his infrastructure spend on the 23rd of November. What

:56:20. > :56:23.will you do with that money? The number one priority is building more

:56:24. > :56:26.homes, we have a desperate shortage of affordable homes. The second one

:56:27. > :56:30.is transport priorities. Many regions are crying out for real

:56:31. > :56:35.basics like a bus to go to work in the morning. Things which are

:56:36. > :56:41.desperately needed. So this money would not be expected to earn a

:56:42. > :56:45.return? The thing about investing in the economy, which we know and I

:56:46. > :56:50.know because I have been a bar leader before, if you invest in the

:56:51. > :56:52.local area, like the regions, in a place like Liverpool, and you can

:56:53. > :56:57.see the European investment where we are having conference at the moment,

:56:58. > :57:02.it leads to jobs. It can over time if the investment is right, that is

:57:03. > :57:06.correct. What do you accept in the short term, perhaps even the medium

:57:07. > :57:17.term, it will lead to quite a substantial rise in the deficit? The

:57:18. > :57:20.thing at the moment is that borrowing is quite low. As we know,

:57:21. > :57:23.the borrowing just came down after the Brexit Road. But will it add to

:57:24. > :57:26.the deficit? It is a good time to borrow which is why the government

:57:27. > :57:28.is about to announce it. But it will add substantially to the deficit.

:57:29. > :57:32.Lets see how to the government is going to add the deficit. But I'm

:57:33. > :57:37.asking about you, these plans in total come to about ?500 billion,

:57:38. > :57:42.and you will take our national debt over ?2 trillion, won't you? It

:57:43. > :57:44.depends on the rate at which we borrow and we have to examine that

:57:45. > :57:49.when we come to make the decision. We want to borrow so that rather

:57:50. > :57:52.than borrowing to keep a few businesses afloat to press down

:57:53. > :57:56.wages, we want to borrow to invest in the country. John McDonnell

:57:57. > :58:00.praised the entrepreneurial state and said the Obama administration

:58:01. > :58:04.had been a good example of that. Can you give me an example of where the

:58:05. > :58:07.Obama administration has been entrepreneurial? I think

:58:08. > :58:11.increasingly across globalised economies, we are seeing people

:58:12. > :58:16.working from home, creating their own businesses. But what has been

:58:17. > :58:20.entrepreneurial about Mr Obama? You can see there has been a growth in

:58:21. > :58:25.the economy and the -- unemployment rate has dropped... The same as

:58:26. > :58:33.Britain's. I'm proudly and implement rate is lower but we are talking

:58:34. > :58:36.about the quality of those jobs, what the wages are and how we can

:58:37. > :58:39.make the workforce and people's lives work much better. My working

:58:40. > :58:39.life will be better when we get it time!

:58:40. > :58:45.John McDonnell has given his second speech as Shadow Chancellor.

:58:46. > :58:47.I'll be back at 11:15pm on BBC2, straight after Newsnight,

:58:48. > :58:50.to bring you all the main events from Liverpool in

:58:51. > :58:59.How could you miss that? And we will be back at the usual time of midday,

:59:00. > :59:16.live from Liverpool, tomorrow. Goodbye.

:59:17. > :59:17.As we think of the places we've called home.