:00:00. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Theresa May delivers her big conference speech
:00:44. > :00:47.So do we know any more about the woman herself
:00:48. > :00:52.and the direction she wants to take the country in?
:00:53. > :00:54.And do Conservatives at their conference think we will be
:00:55. > :00:56.richer or poorer after we leave the European Union?
:00:57. > :01:04.We talk to two former spin doctors about life
:01:05. > :01:08.at the top in Downing Street and whether the era of spin is over.
:01:09. > :01:12.And after Diane James sensationally quit as Ukip
:01:13. > :01:15.leader after just 18 days, we speak to one of the contenders
:01:16. > :01:26.putting themselves forward to replace her.
:01:27. > :01:31.All that in the next hour, and with me for the whole
:01:32. > :01:33.of the programme today Tony Blair's former press supremo
:01:34. > :01:35.Alastair Campbell, who's just released the fifth volume
:01:36. > :01:47.Thank you. Don't sound too enthusiastic! Oh, I am.
:01:48. > :01:50.Now, Theresa May is splashed on almost all the front pages -
:01:51. > :01:51.all except Alastair's old paper, The Daily Mirror.
:01:52. > :01:54.The Telegraph headline is: "It's time to remember the good
:01:55. > :01:58.The Mail says: "We're coming after you!", in reference
:01:59. > :02:01.to Mrs May's message to tax-avoiding multinationals and energy giants.
:02:02. > :02:04.The Guardian declares that May has consigned Cameron to history.
:02:05. > :02:07.And The Times headline says: "May takes centre stage
:02:08. > :02:10.Well, someone who knows all about staking out the centre
:02:11. > :02:23.Do you agree that she now owns that territory? Know, and I don't think
:02:24. > :02:28.she should be allowed to either. I think a lot of what she said and
:02:29. > :02:32.done since she took office and stood on the steps of Downing Street is at
:02:33. > :02:38.odds with the sentence she set out then. I think it has been a very odd
:02:39. > :02:41.week. Seeing Amber Rudd, who I was campaigning with during the
:02:42. > :02:47.referendum campaign, coming out with that stuff about making foreign
:02:48. > :02:51.companies list foreign workers. Jeremy Hunt trying to suggest if we
:02:52. > :02:55.get rid of a few foreign doctors and get a few more Brits in there... I
:02:56. > :02:59.thought it was becoming borderline and even crossing at times,
:03:00. > :03:04.xenophobic. We will talk about that a little later on. In general she is
:03:05. > :03:07.sort of parking her tanks on the lawn that people might have said
:03:08. > :03:14.Tony Blair occupied, because there's no one elsewhere at the moment. Ukip
:03:15. > :03:18.on the other side are in disarray. She has plenty of room to manoeuvre.
:03:19. > :03:23.And I think what she was doing, there were parts of it... I know you
:03:24. > :03:26.have Allister Heath coming on from the Telegraph later, I read his
:03:27. > :03:31.column and he was talking about how she's trying to get too far over to
:03:32. > :03:35.the left on business, but I think in other parts of it, the whole feel of
:03:36. > :03:42.the week has felt like a Ukip tribute band. She's doing both, yes,
:03:43. > :03:49.trying to park a tank on Labour's lawn but also Ukip, which is
:03:50. > :03:52.difficult. Jeremy Corbyn has drawn criticism because we haven't heard
:03:53. > :03:56.anything from him all week. There has been no counter argument put
:03:57. > :04:02.forward by Labour, do you agree? Yes. Should he be more visible? It's
:04:03. > :04:05.not just about the leadership of the Labour Party. Back in the day when I
:04:06. > :04:09.was a journalist there was this thing where you give each party a
:04:10. > :04:14.week to go for it. I think that has changed. I think it changed a while
:04:15. > :04:18.ago. I think it did, and the reality is that conservatives are yet again,
:04:19. > :04:23.looking at the headlines, you see the advantage of you have most of
:04:24. > :04:30.the press ready to beat your Drogba. The Guardian saying she took the
:04:31. > :04:34.underground... they said as she is trying to stake out the centre
:04:35. > :04:38.ground, it's what you then do in terms of policy. That is when it
:04:39. > :04:41.will get difficult. I think a lot of Tories who have kept quiet this
:04:42. > :04:45.week, I think there are quite a lot of Tories are very unhappy with the
:04:46. > :04:50.way Brexit is played out. We will talk about that as well, but we're
:04:51. > :04:55.looking at the response of Labour to what has happened. Nothing from
:04:56. > :05:01.Jeremy Corbyn, and MPs admitting she is, in terms of talk of fairness and
:05:02. > :05:04.working people, the party of the workers, from a rhetoric stance...
:05:05. > :05:09.You have to be careful. People can criticise new Labour and Tony Blair
:05:10. > :05:12.all they want, but we set out a strategic course, new Labour,
:05:13. > :05:17.modernisation, and we made sure the policy worked for that. I think with
:05:18. > :05:21.Theresa May, she's pointing both ways at the moment. I've seen some
:05:22. > :05:26.of the papers today say that we see what she stands for now, I'm still
:05:27. > :05:30.not 100% sure what she stands for at all. Let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn.
:05:31. > :05:34.What is your view of him and now, now he is back in power and the
:05:35. > :05:41.leader again? He's not in power, he is leader of the Labour Party. Yes,
:05:42. > :05:48.leader of the Labour Party. Is your objection to him one based on policy
:05:49. > :05:54.or competence? I've always believed the policies and politics the Labour
:05:55. > :05:58.Party has to pursue, to win power, which is a legitimate and necessary
:05:59. > :06:03.aim, that you've always got to be in touch with the people who don't live
:06:04. > :06:07.inside the political bubble, who do live in the centre ground. I worry
:06:08. > :06:13.that an policy and on politics, and by that I mean this whole kind of...
:06:14. > :06:18.The idea of turning the Labour Party within, wing against swing. But
:06:19. > :06:26.these are your voters. He Griezmann ship. I know, but a lot of them
:06:27. > :06:32.didn't vote for us. But there are people who are now fairly senior, in
:06:33. > :06:35.terms of the direction of the Labour Party, who have been hostile. I
:06:36. > :06:38.think an policy there are fundamental disagreements but I
:06:39. > :06:44.think he's saying a lot of the right things. You think is a competence
:06:45. > :06:47.issue? No. At the moment... I saw Kerry MacArthur give an interview
:06:48. > :06:53.and she said I want to hear stuff you can't just sit on a T-shirt. The
:06:54. > :07:00.same criticism of Theresa May, it's about policy. You all about slogan
:07:01. > :07:08.politics as well. The conference should have been the time to set it
:07:09. > :07:14.up. Owen Smith says he thinks Labour should be a centre-left party. Do
:07:15. > :07:17.you agree with that? Yes. If you like the policies of Jeremy Corbyn,
:07:18. > :07:23.surely you can work on the politics or competence and he could be a
:07:24. > :07:27.future Prime Minister? He could, but the point I'm making to you is you
:07:28. > :07:31.can't just... What I felt about the Labour Party conference, it felt
:07:32. > :07:35.almost like it was operating inside its own bubble. It's about the
:07:36. > :07:40.public in the end. Theresa May I don't think has put forward the
:07:41. > :07:44.policy platform, and I think one she takes us down this Brexit path I
:07:45. > :07:48.think she has all sorts of obstacles. For Labour, the Labour
:07:49. > :07:52.Party, the Labour leadership seems to be defining itself as much
:07:53. > :07:56.against labour as was, as the government doing all sorts of
:07:57. > :08:01.things. Was Owen Smith the wrong candidate to go up against Jeremy
:08:02. > :08:05.Corbyn? Give me an alternative. There were plenty of people to
:08:06. > :08:09.choose from. But they didn't get nominations, you have to deal with
:08:10. > :08:13.what you have. He lost an Jeremy won and now the Labour Party and PLP
:08:14. > :08:17.have to make a decision about how they work with him, to try and take
:08:18. > :08:19.us forward, at a time when people sense of vacuum and are worried
:08:20. > :08:21.about what this government are doing.
:08:22. > :08:25.The question for today is what has Jeremy Corbyn
:08:26. > :08:37.Alastair Campbell says he knows the answer but will have to wait until
:08:38. > :08:40.the end of the show to give it to us.
:08:41. > :08:42.Conference season is a tough time for politicians,
:08:43. > :08:44.their phalanxes of advisors and of course us political hacks -
:08:45. > :08:47.the endless rounds of talks, press appearances, late nights
:08:48. > :08:49.and, of course, cheap wine and terrible fried finger food.
:08:50. > :08:54.And though everyone else might have a bit of a conference
:08:55. > :08:56.hang over, and there's still the SNP's to go,
:08:57. > :08:59.Theresa May and her kitchen cabinet haven't been indulging...
:09:00. > :09:03.Instead they've been hard at work clearing out the Conservative policy
:09:04. > :09:06.cupboards, and over the conference season they've detoxed the previous
:09:07. > :09:08.administrations big ideas and introduced their
:09:09. > :09:18.The first thing the government announced was their plan to be
:09:19. > :09:20.Brexit ready by next year - promising to trigger
:09:21. > :09:26.They also announced they'd blitz existing EU law
:09:27. > :09:29.with a 'Great Repeal Bill' - turning European legislation
:09:30. > :09:33.into British law so it can be sieved out by government.
:09:34. > :09:35.Theresa May vowed she'd keep the UK out of the European Court
:09:36. > :09:39.of Justice and wouldn't hand over any control on immigration,
:09:40. > :09:41.signalling the Government's priorities in any negotiation over
:09:42. > :09:46.Home Secretary Amber Rudd picked up on the immigration theme,
:09:47. > :09:52.She said she wants firms to list all their foreign employees
:09:53. > :10:00.The Government was also keen to bulk up
:10:01. > :10:02.it's fibre content - pledging ?3 billion
:10:03. > :10:05.for a Home Building Fund, though not all of that is new money.
:10:06. > :10:07.And of course, the Government has done it's best
:10:08. > :10:10.to cater for fussy eaters in education - repeating it's mantra
:10:11. > :10:15.to allow more selection of pupils with new grammar schools.
:10:16. > :10:17.Although it's not a medical concept, the Government doesn't want
:10:18. > :10:21.you to detox without medical supervision - Jeremy Hunt has
:10:22. > :10:23.announced an additional 1500 doctor training places per year, and called
:10:24. > :10:31.for less reliance on foreign staff in the NHS.
:10:32. > :10:40.Chancellor Hammond has warned about overdoing it. He's Paul George
:10:41. > :10:44.Osborne's promise to get rid of the deficit by 2020 down the sink.
:10:45. > :10:47.We're joined now by the Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng.
:10:48. > :10:55.Let's talk about the announcements on foreign workers, are you happy
:10:56. > :11:01.with their approach and tone? You have to remember it is not as
:11:02. > :11:05.radical as people are saying. Some elements of the media very excited
:11:06. > :11:11.about it. Listing foreign workers is something that happens in the US.
:11:12. > :11:19.The policy referred to non-EU migrants, not EU migrants. It's not
:11:20. > :11:24.as controversial policy as... Are you happy with naming and shaming
:11:25. > :11:28.companies who employ too many foreigners, making a distinction
:11:29. > :11:33.between British-born workers and foreign workers? Are you comfortable
:11:34. > :11:37.with it? I think there is not a problem with saying... It doesn't
:11:38. > :11:41.cross the line? It was your own Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, who
:11:42. > :11:45.said British jobs for British workers. It's so interesting now to
:11:46. > :11:49.see people like Alastair, defenders of Gordon Brown, saying this is the
:11:50. > :11:57.most extraordinary policy. I think it's totally legitimate in the light
:11:58. > :12:00.of the Brexit vote, finding employment for people in Britain. He
:12:01. > :12:10.coined the phrase, British jobs for British people. Ed Miliband went
:12:11. > :12:15.even further. It is totally unfair to say with shock and horror that
:12:16. > :12:22.this is patently xenophobic. If you get the next volume of my diaries...
:12:23. > :12:27.I think you'll find I wasn't very happy about British jobs for British
:12:28. > :12:31.people. Because I thought that was then... The thing about this debate
:12:32. > :12:36.about immigration, and this does come through both in the last few
:12:37. > :12:39.years... We recognise the growing political problem and struggle with
:12:40. > :12:45.the solutions. I think once you locate the solutions in angry,
:12:46. > :12:50.divisive rhetoric, as opposed to policy that might work, I think it
:12:51. > :12:55.gets very... I you're right, there is a party platform at the party
:12:56. > :12:59.conference, but also a legitimate look at the policy. You said
:13:00. > :13:02.yourself both parties in government have failed to really address this
:13:03. > :13:05.issue. We want to reduce the numbers and if you are going to reduce the
:13:06. > :13:08.numbers are not serious about that, you have to look at interesting and
:13:09. > :13:15.very tough policies. You do accept the numbers have to be reduced?
:13:16. > :13:23.We'll do. Do they? A large a majority of the Conservative Party.
:13:24. > :13:27.You talk about the policy solutions... Would those policies,
:13:28. > :13:35.for instance having fewer foreign doctors, being self-sufficient with
:13:36. > :13:41.British doctors, will that help or hinder our NHS? I think it can help
:13:42. > :13:44.it. How? There will be tension between freedom of movement and
:13:45. > :13:47.economic growth. If you wanted economic growth regardless of
:13:48. > :13:54.freedom of movement, this country could have a population of 100
:13:55. > :13:57.million. But as a politician you can't responsibly accept that. You
:13:58. > :14:01.have to have some sort of degree of control. What we have learned over
:14:02. > :14:06.the last ten years, look at Europe, there are far white parties growing
:14:07. > :14:09.in Europe because of this issue and is absolutely responsible, the right
:14:10. > :14:14.thing for the government to do, to look at this issue and try and
:14:15. > :14:20.restrict... -- far right parties. Is that the solution? Is it about the
:14:21. > :14:25.number of foreign doctors, or doctors where ever they come from,
:14:26. > :14:29.or is it a funding shortfall? I think both elements are important.
:14:30. > :14:33.Funding is obviously important for the NHS, but also an issue in terms
:14:34. > :14:37.of giving opportunities for people in Britain to contribute to British
:14:38. > :14:40.society. There is no real social benefit, I think, to importing
:14:41. > :14:44.hundreds of thousands of people every single year and displacing
:14:45. > :14:49.people who are home-grown people. What is wrong with that, what is
:14:50. > :14:53.xenophobic about that? What I said was xenophobic is day by day through
:14:54. > :14:59.the conference week, that there was a clear and deliberate effort with
:15:00. > :15:04.Amber Rudd and the Prime Minister herself to make this sort of theme
:15:05. > :15:08.for the conference. Without bringing forward policy. I don't think this
:15:09. > :15:12.foreign workers thing will happen, it was all part of the positioning.
:15:13. > :15:18.I think with the health Jeremy Hunt has also awful lot on his plate and
:15:19. > :15:23.he could have made the biggest use of it for as conference but he
:15:24. > :15:27.focused on this narrow point. I was hospital a couple of years ago, I
:15:28. > :15:32.came back from the Balkans and had dysentery. I tell you, if you pushed
:15:33. > :15:36.out... Let me tell you. They are saying they want to develop
:15:37. > :15:39.home-grown doctors. That's fine, they can do that anyway, it's a fact
:15:40. > :15:45.they're trying to pit them against doctors who are already there. Camp
:15:46. > :15:50.Nou so this is more about rhetoric -- can you say this is more about
:15:51. > :15:55.rhetoric, I think there will be some attempt to bring about policies.
:15:56. > :16:02.That's what governmentdo. I think getting, training new doctors is a
:16:03. > :16:06.good thing to do, they could've done that anyway. Low skilled workers.
:16:07. > :16:09.Theresa May said I know a lot of people don't like to admit this,
:16:10. > :16:13.someone who finds themselves out of work what an low wages because of
:16:14. > :16:17.low skilled immigration. Is that absolutely true?
:16:18. > :16:28.There is an issue. But is it actually true? I speak to people who
:16:29. > :16:31.are builders all the time and they will tell you, and you have probably
:16:32. > :16:36.had the same conversations, they haven't had a weight increase in 15
:16:37. > :16:40.years. Part of the reason is we are importing low skilled people who are
:16:41. > :16:44.doing those jobs, that's a fact. We wouldn't import them if they weren't
:16:45. > :16:50.keeping wages down. Even Ed Miliband admitted this as a reality, so for
:16:51. > :16:55.Labour to shy away and point the finger and say these are issues that
:16:56. > :17:03.aren't actually going to solve... I think the and contempt of wages is a
:17:04. > :17:08.real issue, minimum wage, living wage, these are designed to help the
:17:09. > :17:10.people break the law. What we have to be careful about, which is why
:17:11. > :17:15.others borrowed about the tone of the whole, is making process
:17:16. > :17:22.emotions without really sitting at the reality about how big a problem
:17:23. > :17:29.is. I do worry, particularly if you think about, the country was very
:17:30. > :17:34.divided with the set vote, and the message from Theresa May is, it's
:17:35. > :17:39.not divided all -- with the Brexit vote. It wasn't that clear, it was
:17:40. > :17:44.very complicated. I think she should be doing more to unite, she's making
:17:45. > :17:49.the same mistake David Cameron. He think that is to binary? She also
:17:50. > :17:54.sees a greater role, that's it as one of the more interesting things
:17:55. > :17:58.about her speech in terms of good government, people were surprised to
:17:59. > :18:03.hear that from a Tory Prime Minister. Is that something you
:18:04. > :18:07.would support? Of course, a referendum, we don't have often in
:18:08. > :18:12.this country, there is a reason, they are binary, it's a yes or no
:18:13. > :18:15.answer and you will get 52, 48, it could have gone the other way and
:18:16. > :18:20.that's a difficult position for any government to be in but I think she
:18:21. > :18:25.has the fantastic job in trying to project steady government, mature
:18:26. > :18:30.government, she's a national figure. Her polling is strong on this. But
:18:31. > :18:36.do you embrace this side of her, this state intervention, good
:18:37. > :18:40.government? The plant she is try to make and has made effectively is
:18:41. > :18:43.they were people who felt left out, we have two little the Brexit vote
:18:44. > :18:47.and say, there are people for whom this economy isn't working, and she
:18:48. > :18:52.says she will make an economy work for everyone. That means some more
:18:53. > :19:00.government legislation looking at workers' rights, looking at things,
:19:01. > :19:04.education... The conversations I have had it with you in the past,
:19:05. > :19:07.you would not have supported that. I tend to be more on the free market
:19:08. > :19:12.side of things, that we have to look at the proposals as they come. I
:19:13. > :19:15.think the government has made a good start, she has admitted what a lot
:19:16. > :19:19.of people on your side haven't acknowledged, but there is a
:19:20. > :19:27.disconnect between the Metropolitan elite and the country. You and I are
:19:28. > :19:30.members of it. The Tory party has been presenting itself as the party
:19:31. > :19:36.of the working classes, we're putting up straw men here. The thing
:19:37. > :19:40.about picketers, that you only patriotic if you follow this mission
:19:41. > :19:45.that Theresa May sets out for what Britain is, is nonsense. I thought
:19:46. > :19:50.she has done a good job of protecting herself at a national
:19:51. > :19:54.leader. That's a different thing. I also signed up to abandoning the
:19:55. > :20:00.deficit reduction plan or reaching a surplus? I am a deficit hawk but I
:20:01. > :20:05.came into Parliament in 2010, and we said we would eliminate it in five
:20:06. > :20:11.years and we missed all those targets. So you have converted on
:20:12. > :20:14.that? Hammond has a moral realist approach, committee wants to reduce
:20:15. > :20:20.the deficit but there is no point having targets you miss every year.
:20:21. > :20:26.Like the immigration target. Or the NHS target. You have two stick to it
:20:27. > :20:28.and that's what the Chancellor has recognised.
:20:29. > :20:31.Now, Brexit has been the hot topic of this party conference season.
:20:32. > :20:34.But what did the delegates at the Conservative conference think
:20:35. > :20:37.the outlook for the UK economy will be in a post-Brexit Britain?
:20:38. > :20:42.We sent our Adam out with his balls to ask them.
:20:43. > :20:44.Will dissolving the UK's marriage with the EU leave the country
:20:45. > :20:50.I think richer in the long-term, but there's a lot of challenges
:20:51. > :20:56.I think there will be some people who are a little bit better off
:20:57. > :21:02.A quick question, aren't you at the wrong conference?
:21:03. > :21:07.I get a better welcome here, than I do at the Labour Party one.
:21:08. > :21:11.Just having our own seat at the top table again.
:21:12. > :21:14.I think we won't notice it this early on, but eventually
:21:15. > :21:24.Because we haven't left yet, so we don't know yet.
:21:25. > :21:26.Why do you think it will lead to us benig poorer?
:21:27. > :21:29.I don't think we're going to negotiate the right deal.
:21:30. > :21:33.If we get that fair immigration system, which is basically that
:21:34. > :21:36.anyone either from Europe or outside of Europe coming to Britain with no
:21:37. > :21:38.discrimination based on colour of passport,
:21:39. > :21:40.it's going to make us richer, a better workforce.
:21:41. > :21:49.Absolutely, I have no doubt about it.
:21:50. > :22:00.I think in the long-term we''ill be richer, but there may be
:22:01. > :22:02.Is the turbulence a price worth paying?
:22:03. > :22:06.Andrea, you're going to love the question today.
:22:07. > :22:10.Will Brexit leave us richer or poorer?
:22:11. > :22:13.Oh, she's not denying it would leave us poorer.
:22:14. > :22:15.Is that how we interpret that silence?
:22:16. > :22:18.Owen, is Brexit going to leave us richer or poorer?
:22:19. > :22:22.What do think Andrew Mitchell will vote?
:22:23. > :22:25.I think Andrew Mitchell will vote richer...
:22:26. > :22:27.We've seen the country before, we're old enough to remember it
:22:28. > :22:32.We weren't very rich in the 1950s, were we?
:22:33. > :22:35.We had a good life, even though we were children then.
:22:36. > :22:37.I'd say probably slightly on the poorer side.
:22:38. > :22:43.Because it will take as a bit of time to get back into it.
:22:44. > :22:52.Is Britain going to be richer or poorer as a result of Brexit?
:22:53. > :22:56.Don't you want to answer that question?
:22:57. > :23:01.He's got time to do a selfie, but not time for the moodbox, sad!
:23:02. > :23:03.There we go, which when will he go for?
:23:04. > :23:16.I just think culturally it's going to be a big mistake,
:23:17. > :23:19.to have left and make ourselves more isolated from the rest of the EU.
:23:20. > :23:22.There we go, the last moodbox at the Tory conference and it's
:23:23. > :23:24.a whopping majority that thinks Britain will be
:23:25. > :23:26.richer as a result of Brexit.
:23:27. > :23:47.A clear majority, you agree with them? Completely. I was just reading
:23:48. > :23:51.a guy for coming on the show, the head of the German industrial... He
:23:52. > :23:57.said that within three to five years, Britain will be richer, doing
:23:58. > :24:03.better than the rest of Europe. That's a German businessman! But,
:24:04. > :24:10.beyond that, do you think that's true or will it take longer? I think
:24:11. > :24:12.the economy can adjust quickly, we will have different trading patterns
:24:13. > :24:20.and a relationship with the EU, no one is saying we can't draw up...
:24:21. > :24:24.Sure. But broadly, we will have more control, more flexible economy...
:24:25. > :24:32.And that will make us richer in the long term. You have mentioned him,
:24:33. > :24:38.but there are big employers, Nissan, Jaguar, risks to jobs. Are they
:24:39. > :24:42.wrong? They are producers, they make things in this country and have a
:24:43. > :24:45.vested interest in the status quo, absolutely. I would expect them at
:24:46. > :24:49.the beginning of negotiations to set out their stall and say these are
:24:50. > :24:55.the dangers. They expect access to the single market. But we're talking
:24:56. > :24:58.about membership to the single market, Theresa May has said we
:24:59. > :25:04.can't have it, you can still have access... The thing is we don't
:25:05. > :25:09.know. I'd also, I think having triggered said she's going to
:25:10. > :25:14.trigger Article 50, that is when the tough stuff is going to start. Is
:25:15. > :25:19.this you doing Project Fear again, warning about the economy taking a
:25:20. > :25:24.downturn? It's about warning what I think is going to happen, the
:25:25. > :25:26.European Union will see us now... It's not a divorce commits a
:25:27. > :25:34.resignation, we have decided to leave. Is it a threat from them? It
:25:35. > :25:40.matters much worse than it does to them. We are about a six of the
:25:41. > :25:45.whole economy of them. There is no point in them having a
:25:46. > :25:51.retaliatory... It doesn't have to be forced to take years and years to
:25:52. > :25:58.get the trade deals we need. I wasn't in favour of the euro, I was
:25:59. > :26:03.of the EU. Tony Blair. He told us it wouldn't be a disaster if we didn't
:26:04. > :26:08.join. Philip Hammond, the Chancellor, repeated the Treasury
:26:09. > :26:13.forecast that was done during the referendum campaign of a 4% hit
:26:14. > :26:19.overtime to GDP. He repeated it again this week. Is he right? I
:26:20. > :26:24.don't believe these scare stories. The Chancellor is scaring people? I
:26:25. > :26:30.don't know what his particular position was. We had a lot of data
:26:31. > :26:34.from the Treasury, the punishment budget, that had a Treasury thing...
:26:35. > :26:42.And that hasn't happened? It was completely. Wrong. What Philip
:26:43. > :26:45.Hammond was doing, I find it incredible that I was looking at him
:26:46. > :26:51.and thinking, seems to be a voice of almost reason... He is the
:26:52. > :26:59.Chancellor, looking at the state of the whole time. And the idea... The
:27:00. > :27:04.trouble is, we have a media which has a sense of everything is going
:27:05. > :27:11.to be wonderful, they want to be proven right so they pick on every
:27:12. > :27:15.bit of data... So does your side. My point is, the big, difficult stuff,
:27:16. > :27:20.is yet to come. It's going to come when these companies to make their
:27:21. > :27:24.hard-headed decisions and the idea that they are all going to say,
:27:25. > :27:27.that's fine would have access to the single market, don't have to worry
:27:28. > :27:35.about freedom of movement... We're going to face the got choices. You
:27:36. > :27:40.talked about Philip Hammond being the voice of sanity, but the same
:27:41. > :27:44.voices were warning of apocalyptic economic downturn, that was wrong,
:27:45. > :27:52.wasn't it? I don't accept that, it hasn't even begun. These deposits it
:27:53. > :28:00.would be a recession in 2016. Thankfully that hasn't happened. We
:28:01. > :28:05.are still in 2016. I don't... I don't think there will be a
:28:06. > :28:12.recession. Cameron and Osborne said it. I said, there still believe,
:28:13. > :28:16.that leaving the European Union will damage as politically and economic
:28:17. > :28:22.Lee and culturally. And you would be wrong. Can we agree that we won't
:28:23. > :28:25.really know until Article 50 is triggered in March and then we might
:28:26. > :28:33.have a clearer idea. It'll take years. So it will take years to take
:28:34. > :28:39.the trade deal? Who don't even know what skin to happen in five, ten, 40
:28:40. > :28:44.years. -- that's going to happen. The longer time goes on, a lot of
:28:45. > :28:49.your doom mongering will be proved wrong. And the newspapers will say
:28:50. > :28:57.that Brexit, blaming Britain is the going strong. Used to work in the
:28:58. > :29:06.newspapers! I am out of it, thank God!
:29:07. > :29:09.Ukip's immigration spokesman who announced he would be running for
:29:10. > :29:14.the leadership of the party, there will be a contest, has this morning
:29:15. > :29:19.collapsed in the European Parliament in Strasbourg. The ten out our
:29:20. > :29:25.political correspondent. Tell us what's gone on. This is a developing
:29:26. > :29:30.story, we note the first reports came in half an hour ago that
:29:31. > :29:35.Stephen will first left about in the European Parliament in Strasbourg,
:29:36. > :29:40.currently sitting, he collapsed. We have confirmation from a Ukip
:29:41. > :29:44.spokesperson that he was taken ill suddenly in Strasbourg and has been
:29:45. > :29:49.taken to hospital for tests. We haven't got any more information
:29:50. > :29:54.about the severity of this incident, no further update on his health but
:29:55. > :29:59.as you might imagine, other MEPs and Ukip colleagues are putting their
:30:00. > :30:05.support for him. Their rivals in that leadership contest I wish him
:30:06. > :30:09.the best for his recovery. He was doing the media rounds yesterday
:30:10. > :30:14.when he announced he would be a candidate in this leadership race,
:30:15. > :30:18.saying he was the first went put his name forward now that the contest
:30:19. > :30:21.will be rerun following the unexpected resignation of Diane
:30:22. > :30:23.James, now this latest element that he has been taken ill, very scant
:30:24. > :30:36.details at the moment. I suppose the leadership contest at
:30:37. > :30:41.the moment will be put on hold old until we know about Steven Woolfe's
:30:42. > :30:51.position? The only other candidate so far to declare he will be
:30:52. > :30:54.standing is Raheem Cassandra. He said out of respect for Steven
:30:55. > :30:59.Woolfe at this stage you won't continue with media appearances
:31:00. > :31:05.until the situation becomes clearer. The board across Ukip, there seems
:31:06. > :31:09.to be broad support for Steven Woolfe, who is a very well-known
:31:10. > :31:14.character in Ukip, is a man who has been their immigration spokesman and
:31:15. > :31:20.an MP in Parliament. People wishing him the best and hoping he gets
:31:21. > :31:24.well, but this seems like it will bring about a pause in campaigning.
:31:25. > :31:30.Thank you for updating us. We were hoping to speak to Raheem Kassam,
:31:31. > :31:37.who was also going to stand for the leadership, but no more media
:31:38. > :31:38.appearances at the moment as it is not appropriate, bearing in mind
:31:39. > :31:40.Steven Woolfe's position. Now, as well as attacking
:31:41. > :31:43.the "socialist left" in her speech, Theresa May also rejected
:31:44. > :31:44.the ideology of the Unsurprisingly, it hasn't gone down
:31:45. > :31:48.too well with everyone on the right. Let's have a listen
:31:49. > :31:51.to what she had to say. It's time to remember the good
:31:52. > :31:53.that government can do. Time for a new approach that says
:31:54. > :31:56.while government doesn't have all the answers,
:31:57. > :32:00.government can and should be That the state exists to provide
:32:01. > :32:06.what individual people, communities and markets cannot,
:32:07. > :32:09.and that we should employ the power of government
:32:10. > :32:14.for the good of the people. Time to reject the ideological
:32:15. > :32:17.templates provided by the socialist left and the libertarian right,
:32:18. > :32:20.and to embrace a new centre ground in which government
:32:21. > :32:23.steps up and not back, Joining us now is the Deputy Editor
:32:24. > :32:40.of the Daily Telegraph, Proud libertarian I would say. Your
:32:41. > :32:48.view has been rejected by Theresa May. Yes, that's the point I made in
:32:49. > :32:52.the piece today. I think for years the Conservative Party has been
:32:53. > :32:58.moving away from the ideas of Thatcherism and Reagan. What she did
:32:59. > :33:01.yesterday, I think, was quite important. It was an official
:33:02. > :33:05.rejection of that world view. It's building on what happened in the
:33:06. > :33:11.past, building on what happened under that coalition, but more
:33:12. > :33:18.comprehensive and more explicit than anything I've ever heard before from
:33:19. > :33:23.a Tory leader. In many ways... A worldview Lord Heseltine would have
:33:24. > :33:27.embraced. It's about an industrial policy, about the state doing things
:33:28. > :33:33.I'm trying... That's because she feels she is right about it, more in
:33:34. > :33:37.tune with public sentiment, that actually people like you who are
:33:38. > :33:41.supportive of bankers and big business, rightly or wrongly, global
:33:42. > :33:45.elites, which motivated many people to vote for Brexit are completely
:33:46. > :33:50.out of fashion and people feel have done a lot of harm? Like Brexit, of
:33:51. > :33:57.course. But that's the conundrum, isn't it? It is a conundrum, yes.
:33:58. > :34:01.And a lot of people think that. But we shouldn't forget the biggest
:34:02. > :34:07.group of Brexit voters were Tory voters, something like 60% of Tory
:34:08. > :34:12.voters voted for Brexit. Of course a lot of Labour voters did and Ukip
:34:13. > :34:17.voters and former Labour voters, but it's wrong to see Brexit purely as a
:34:18. > :34:23.populist rejection of globalisation. It's not that. Some aspects were
:34:24. > :34:27.that but some weren't. People like myself, free marketeers, rejected it
:34:28. > :34:36.for completely different reasons. As deregulation not failed in the eyes
:34:37. > :34:41.of many people. I disagree with that. There has been a massive
:34:42. > :34:45.productivity problem, stagnant wages, I think the answers are not
:34:46. > :34:49.state intervention, there are about finding market solutions to these
:34:50. > :34:54.problems, finding conservative solutions to these problems. The
:34:55. > :34:58.sort of solutions that shall all Reagan would have found. It does
:34:59. > :35:04.show because the ideas I like on the way, I hope it won't last. Are you
:35:05. > :35:09.happy Allister Heath is out on a limb, isolated on mainstream
:35:10. > :35:12.politics and the Tories, the Conservatives are occupying good
:35:13. > :35:19.government, state intervention, all the things Labour leaders have long
:35:20. > :35:21.since loved? I think you are slightly overdoing the doom and
:35:22. > :35:25.gloom from your side of the argument. I think what you saw
:35:26. > :35:31.yesterday was Theresa May feeling under competing pressure. Her speech
:35:32. > :35:36.reflected the same backdrop as Jeremy Corbyn's. Essentially saying
:35:37. > :35:41.the public feel that the crash, those who caused the crash have kind
:35:42. > :35:46.of got away with it. Don't you think that's true? I do think that's true,
:35:47. > :35:50.I think that's what fuels a lot of the anti-politics, anti-government,
:35:51. > :35:54.anti-business feeling. I think where she has to be very careful is where
:35:55. > :35:59.she ends up... Once you are the Prime Minister, you can't sort of be
:36:00. > :36:03.all things to all men and women repeatedly. Yesterday a little bit
:36:04. > :36:09.for Labour voters, a little bit for Ukip voters... I don't think she's
:36:10. > :36:15.as committed. Does that reassure you? I am a very optimistic person!
:36:16. > :36:20.One of the key points to me is this, we are going to have Brexit. I'm
:36:21. > :36:24.very happy we will have Brexit. I think Theresa May will try to
:36:25. > :36:28.negotiate the best settlement. So the opportunities of Brexit to be
:36:29. > :36:31.realised, you need a very competitive economy, free market
:36:32. > :36:36.reform and attract capital. That is key. The Prime Minister and
:36:37. > :36:41.government needs to remember that. Bashing business all but I'm calling
:36:42. > :36:46.for greater state intervention and same businessmen created all of
:36:47. > :36:50.this... It was a more popular speech I expected. On the conundrum I was
:36:51. > :36:56.speaking about, isn't that the problem? Who wanted to remain said
:36:57. > :37:00.there are two types of Brexit, people like you who believe in more
:37:01. > :37:04.globalisation, deregulation and the power of the free market, and many
:37:05. > :37:12.people who voted for the opposite but still for Brexit. How will she
:37:13. > :37:18.be able to marry those? The remains I'd also had people who love the EU.
:37:19. > :37:22.Referendum is about coalitions, you had two coalitions. Of course it is
:37:23. > :37:26.quite difficult to reconcile those two, but what she needs to do is
:37:27. > :37:30.create an economic success story. She needs growth, jobs, investment,
:37:31. > :37:35.rising wages. If you start to achieve these kinds of things and a
:37:36. > :37:39.more democratic and reject certain aspects of the old elite rule, I
:37:40. > :37:43.think you can make some leeway and start to grow your share of the
:37:44. > :37:47.vote. I think she could get over 40% of the vote, in theory at least,
:37:48. > :37:55.with those policies. I don't think she needs to engage in a wholesale
:37:56. > :38:00.rejection of Thatcherism. Labour has to be careful about bashing bankers
:38:01. > :38:04.and business, that was Ed Miliband's problem before Jeremy Corbyn, being
:38:05. > :38:10.seen as the anti-business party. You do have to tread a fine line if
:38:11. > :38:14.you're going to blame the people responsible for the crash? The worst
:38:15. > :38:17.thing for recent years for me in politics is the Conservatives
:38:18. > :38:22.managed to pin the causes of the economic crash on Labour and labour
:38:23. > :38:25.ventilated that attack rather than challenged it. I think this
:38:26. > :38:29.discussion shows the difficulties she has, in terms of where she will
:38:30. > :38:34.position herself strategically and politically going forward. I don't
:38:35. > :38:38.think she has rejected a fairly right-wing approach to the economy.
:38:39. > :38:41.I think she's talking the talk of the centre ground, but we will see
:38:42. > :38:48.what sort of policies come forward. You will have to wait and see. Thank
:38:49. > :38:53.you. Alastair, this one, joined us today to launch the next instalment
:38:54. > :38:55.about the final one of his diaries, following his departure from Downing
:38:56. > :38:59.Street as Tony Blair's director of communications.
:39:00. > :39:02.Yet his is not the only book written by a former 'Spin Doctor' to hit
:39:03. > :39:06.Craig Oliver became David Cameron's press man in 2011 and has
:39:07. > :39:07.just published his book 'Unleashing Demons:
:39:08. > :39:11.Before we chat to the two of them, let's look back
:39:12. > :39:21.# Now what you going to do when you're caught
:39:22. > :39:33.# And who's going to tell 'em that you won't when you probably will?
:39:34. > :39:44.# Who's the only man can make you look like you're nearly
:39:45. > :39:52.# Somebody better get me a spin doctor.
:39:53. > :40:03.# Somebody won't you call me a spin doctor.
:40:04. > :40:17.# Napoleon wasn't short, he was only of diminished size.
:40:18. > :40:23.# The Krays loved their Mother and a politician never lies.
:40:24. > :40:29.# If perception leaves a nasty stain he can make you white again.
:40:30. > :40:31.# He's a master of illusion turning dirty water into wine.
:40:32. > :40:41.# Somebody better get me a spin doctor.
:40:42. > :40:50.# Somebody won't you call me a spin doctor.
:40:51. > :40:56.# I know when I'm wrong that he'll make it right.
:40:57. > :40:59.# My image is short, don't wanna drown in this sleaze.
:41:00. > :41:06.And that man you saw there, following David Cameron around
:41:07. > :41:10.and leaving Downing Street, joins us now in the studio.
:41:11. > :41:19.Welcome. Hello. In strategy terms, do you stand by everything you did
:41:20. > :41:23.during the referendum campaign? Not at all, we made some mistakes and
:41:24. > :41:26.the book is very clear about that. Some serious mistakes and we need to
:41:27. > :41:31.take responsibility for them. You made bloodcurdling predictions in
:41:32. > :41:36.what would happen in the immediate aftermath of what would happen in
:41:37. > :41:41.the result of a vote to leave, a recession, drop in house prices,
:41:42. > :41:45.they were mistakes? I don't accept we said immediately afterwards, we
:41:46. > :41:50.said when we left it the EU. We are still members of the EU on the same
:41:51. > :41:54.terms as the 23rd of June. You think it could still happen? I think there
:41:55. > :41:57.could be problems for the economy going forward. There is an industry
:41:58. > :42:01.at the moment saying everything is fine with the economy at the moment.
:42:02. > :42:05.We have seen the currency drop dramatically, growth forecasts for
:42:06. > :42:08.next year downgraded dramatically. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
:42:09. > :42:11.saying he's going to reset fiscal policy, which sounds like more
:42:12. > :42:16.borrowing. So decided that the economy is all fine I think is a
:42:17. > :42:24.little far-fetched. You are still predicting Project Fear, as was
:42:25. > :42:28.called... I'm not. It is. I'm simply saying. You're saying these things
:42:29. > :42:32.could still happen in March when we invoke Article 50. I'm saying it's
:42:33. > :42:37.hard to find a respected economist who don't think it's going to be a
:42:38. > :42:41.bumpy economy here for the next three years. You were involved in
:42:42. > :42:46.the campaign, would you do things differently? Less of it will be a
:42:47. > :42:49.nightmare if we leave Basra might a campaign needs three things. A sense
:42:50. > :42:53.of where you are going to go forward, you need to attack your
:42:54. > :42:56.opponents. I felt there should have been more attacking of the opponents
:42:57. > :43:01.and Boris Johnson got away with murder in that campaign and still
:43:02. > :43:05.is, to be frank. This off to Turkey to say we now support Turkey joining
:43:06. > :43:08.the EU... I'm afraid I agree with Craig, I'm not at all complacent
:43:09. > :43:14.about what is going to happen to Britain and the British economy once
:43:15. > :43:18.this economy is seen through. You failed and we have yet to see the
:43:19. > :43:23.result. In terms of attacking opponents, you were prepping Angela
:43:24. > :43:26.Eagle ahead of the debate with Boris Johnson and Amber Rudd attacked
:43:27. > :43:31.Boris Johnson but it didn't work? The vote was lost. You don't know
:43:32. > :43:36.the impact... That style didn't work in the end. The style both of you
:43:37. > :43:41.seemed to back in that campaign. You need two things. It made people had
:43:42. > :43:44.in their view against being told by the establishment. I'm totally
:43:45. > :43:48.confused by the questioning. On one hand you said we didn't attack and
:43:49. > :43:52.another you said we did. I think I can have my cake and eat it. People
:43:53. > :43:56.said they didn't want to trust experts, they didn't want to be told
:43:57. > :44:00.what to do by the elite. I think that was one of the worst parts of
:44:01. > :44:05.the campaign, the idea that people who know what they're talked about
:44:06. > :44:12.-- talking about should be derided and ignored... It's absurd. You
:44:13. > :44:19.lost. Exactly. You reveal it in the book David Cameron refused a
:44:20. > :44:23.conversation by the general director of the BBC, and also put pressure on
:44:24. > :44:28.the Corporation over its coverage of the referendum. Is that an abuse of
:44:29. > :44:33.power? Absolutely not. Tony Hall, the director-general of the BBC,
:44:34. > :44:35.asked for a conversation with the Prime Minister about charter
:44:36. > :44:40.renewal. Perfectly legitimate for him to do that. The BBC is an
:44:41. > :44:44.important organisation in the country and legitimate for him to
:44:45. > :44:47.make his point. It is legitimate for a Prime Minister to say he is
:44:48. > :44:52.concerned about some aspects of BBC coverage, and by the way, he was
:44:53. > :44:57.absolutely right. Too often BBC coverage, particularly regarding
:44:58. > :45:03.economics, mistook balance for impartiality. And put pressure on
:45:04. > :45:10.the BBC to address that? It was a concern, he the economics editor of
:45:11. > :45:15.the BBC... Business opinion in this country was split, it was, and that
:45:16. > :45:19.he was also making clear that when a few economists came on and made one
:45:20. > :45:22.point, that somehow there was an equivalence there. That was a
:45:23. > :45:27.problem on an issue the BBC struggled with. And they admitted
:45:28. > :45:29.it. It was about the timing. Was it right to link that to conversation
:45:30. > :45:43.about charter renewal? Tony Hall, the director-general of
:45:44. > :45:46.the BBC, asked for and received a conversation with the PM in order to
:45:47. > :45:53.lobby him about the charter. That is perfectly legitimate. And you used
:45:54. > :45:57.that as an opportunity to talk about concerns he had about coverage.
:45:58. > :46:01.People will think that and say that was undue leverage... Should have
:46:02. > :46:08.waited and had another meeting and of. This is nonsense. The idea you
:46:09. > :46:12.aren't allowed to race concerned, it's what happens in discussion. I
:46:13. > :46:17.didn't say that particular content, it's about linking it to charter
:46:18. > :46:23.renewal. He asked for the conversation. He then moved on to
:46:24. > :46:27.other subject. I think it is utter nonsense to say they were linked to
:46:28. > :46:33.charter renewal. By the way the BBC got an amazing deal. 11 years, with
:46:34. > :46:37.inflation busting terms. The idea that they were put under the
:46:38. > :46:42.screw... Let's just stick to what was seen by some as potential abuse
:46:43. > :46:48.of power. There was a chap you employed in 2014 who was
:46:49. > :46:51.investigating the Lamela's expenses using her links to the Levenson
:46:52. > :46:57.enquiry, is that fair? Totally unfair. I am surprised you're
:46:58. > :47:00.bringing that up. The Today programme had to issue a statement
:47:01. > :47:04.making clear that if anybody repeated that libel, it would be
:47:05. > :47:09.wrong, and within minutes of that interview, I did not put any undue
:47:10. > :47:15.pressure on the Daily Telegraph and it is wrong with you to suggest I
:47:16. > :47:23.did. So you completely and utterly say that none of that was linked to
:47:24. > :47:29.either charter renewal of the BBC all the Levenson enquiry's coverage?
:47:30. > :47:32.Of course, what is being suggested is that somehow I was suggesting
:47:33. > :47:36.that if they didn't investigate Maria Miller, we would have an
:47:37. > :47:42.influence on an independent judge, not true in any way. I have been
:47:43. > :47:45.very clear about that. Nobody has come back after I cleared that up
:47:46. > :47:50.and I am slightly surprised you would raise that now. Well, I have
:47:51. > :47:55.raised it in your surprise. Let's talk about the inner of spin. It
:47:56. > :48:01.seems that the reason may is trying to give the impression that Spain is
:48:02. > :48:06.over, the sort of spin that you and to some extent Craig, indulged in.
:48:07. > :48:12.You agree? Know. I think we have seen a hell of a lot of spin this
:48:13. > :48:16.week. But I define is where you set out a message, we're going to take
:48:17. > :48:22.the centre ground and you put out policies, that are like the rise and
:48:23. > :48:26.Ukip. So you you have to communicate... In terms of trust,
:48:27. > :48:32.the accusation has been levelled at you continually that because of the
:48:33. > :48:37.era of spin, you saw trust in politicians and media operations, it
:48:38. > :48:43.has died. Well, this excellent poem begins... I have had to put the
:48:44. > :48:49.mixture each other. It begins with the Hutton enquiry. If the media,
:48:50. > :48:57.large parts of it, only ever say one side of the story, at that was a
:48:58. > :49:02.situation where... Having a go at at great... You have tried to control
:49:03. > :49:05.the media! I tried to make sure our message was understood that the
:49:06. > :49:10.public and unit resented the fact that we did it so successfully. This
:49:11. > :49:15.starts off with the BBC in a state of collapse because he did not apply
:49:16. > :49:19.even basic rigour to a piece of reporting which should never have
:49:20. > :49:25.happened. People can read the diaries... You say, and all of us
:49:26. > :49:30.continually say things, if you only ever get one side of the story, do
:49:31. > :49:34.not surprised if the public believe one thing. I don't think anyone
:49:35. > :49:37.could say we have only had one side of the story. Even John McDonnell,
:49:38. > :49:41.was not a close friend of yours, had this to say to you.
:49:42. > :49:43.I think it's a disaster for the Labour Party.
:49:44. > :49:48.Because you are the person above all else who created a
:49:49. > :49:50.political environment where no one believed a word a politician said.
:49:51. > :49:54.You lost us 5 million votes in that process and set us up to fail.
:49:55. > :49:59.The reason Jeremy was elected was because they wanted some
:50:00. > :50:09.Look, John, I have come on here tonight to be nice
:50:10. > :50:16.And I tell you why, because I care about
:50:17. > :50:19.I really care about the Labour Party, and I worry
:50:20. > :50:21.that you and yours are destroying it.
:50:22. > :50:24.And what's more, I actually worry you don't even care.
:50:25. > :50:30.We're trying to restore honesty and confidence in politics again,
:50:31. > :50:46.All the Labour Party! What do you say to that? You chastise me for
:50:47. > :50:51.continually going on about it but that is because that is how people
:50:52. > :50:54.feel. Some people do! And as I said to him that day, I understand why
:50:55. > :51:00.the media, particularly the right wing media, go on about new Labour,
:51:01. > :51:04.and by the Tories do it... Let me finish the sentence if I may! I set
:51:05. > :51:10.the John McDonnell for the Labour Party to trash the record of the
:51:11. > :51:13.Labour Party is not only wrong, it is strategically stupid. What I said
:51:14. > :51:18.to him and I will keep saying to him, is that until they understand
:51:19. > :51:21.why we won elections in this period, even after the Iraq war, they will
:51:22. > :51:28.not gain in a position where they might win again. You agree with him
:51:29. > :51:34.about thats in terms of winning elections. In the end the PR machine
:51:35. > :51:38.was part of it. You say you want elections. By doing strategy
:51:39. > :51:43.properly and having proper communications. What about the
:51:44. > :51:50.erosion of trust that people now feel they have lost that in
:51:51. > :51:55.politicians? You feel part of that? Politics definitely has a part to
:51:56. > :52:00.play in this and so does the media. You all here to talk about you. I
:52:01. > :52:05.am, we can have an interesting discussion here about the impact of
:52:06. > :52:10.persistently behaving in a certain way for politics and the media. Or
:52:11. > :52:14.you can simply say, J at number ten, you were just trying to set the
:52:15. > :52:18.agenda, you are terrible pantomime villains, we have no responsibility
:52:19. > :52:21.at all. That's what I find depressing talk to journalists
:52:22. > :52:25.sometimes, if it was an honest and open discussion about how sometimes
:52:26. > :52:32.they make mistakes, just as we in politics too. I think the media is
:52:33. > :52:37.under that scrutiny. But where is it? You make that statement, where
:52:38. > :52:41.is it, can you give me an example. No, we have run out of time!
:52:42. > :52:43.We've just received a statement from interim
:52:44. > :52:44.Ukip Leader Nigel Farage regarding the situation
:52:45. > :52:53.Mr Farage said: "I deeply regret that following an altercation that
:52:54. > :52:56.took place at a meeting of Ukip MEPs this morning, that Steven Woolfe
:52:57. > :52:59.subsequently collapsed and was taken to hospital.
:53:00. > :53:03.Party insiders have also told The Daily Telegraph that Mr Woolfe
:53:04. > :53:13.was punched by a Ukip colleague - that detail has not been confirmed.
:53:14. > :53:19.Rail commuters across Surrey, Sussex, Kent and Hampshire have
:53:20. > :53:21.seen travel chaos over the past few weeks.
:53:22. > :53:23.Southern Rail staff have been striking, following proposed changes
:53:24. > :53:26.The Rail, Maritime and Transport workers' union, or RMT,
:53:27. > :53:31.has been threatening further industrial action.
:53:32. > :53:35.With fresh walkouts due to start next week, the RMT has been locked
:53:36. > :53:37.in talks with Southern's parent company, Govia Thameslink Railway.
:53:38. > :53:40.Our correspondent Marc Ashdown is outside the talks in central
:53:41. > :53:57.No sign of a deal just yet. They have been here since ten a.m., a few
:53:58. > :54:01.cigarette breaks but that is the only sign of any white smoke from
:54:02. > :54:05.this building. The fact they are still in there after three hours,
:54:06. > :54:09.some will see as good news, such as been the animosity surrounding this
:54:10. > :54:15.dispute. The last we heard, the RMT put forward a set of proposals that
:54:16. > :54:22.they would agree to, Seven went away to look at those, as far as we know
:54:23. > :54:27.the two sides are still talking. These peace talks, aimed at trade to
:54:28. > :54:35.avert a fresh round of strikes, this is all about who closes the doors on
:54:36. > :54:40.those Southern rail services that serve most of southern England, into
:54:41. > :54:45.London. The Garter Ball was closed doors, historically, seven Roman to
:54:46. > :54:56.the service and once the drivers to do that, the RMT say it has safety
:54:57. > :54:57.indications. In the middle of all this, passengers, commuters are
:54:58. > :55:03.suffering because of these disputes. We are now joined in
:55:04. > :55:05.the studio by Mick Lynch, Assistant General Secretary
:55:06. > :55:15.of the Rail, Maritime I have just come from the talks, it
:55:16. > :55:18.has nothing to do with closing the doors, it's about the safety
:55:19. > :55:21.critical role of the guards. We have put a set of proposals to the
:55:22. > :55:27.company that will settle this dispute if they want to pick it up.
:55:28. > :55:31.And what's your impression so far? Our impression is they are thinking
:55:32. > :55:34.about it, if they want to come to sensible position, they will take
:55:35. > :55:37.forward we have said. We have given the concessions that would deal with
:55:38. > :55:44.all the things they want and we'll deal with the things we need. You
:55:45. > :55:46.have rejected the proposal? Their proposal is they will sack and that
:55:47. > :55:52.if we don't accept everything they have put forward. What have they put
:55:53. > :55:58.forward? They have put forward that the safety critical role of the
:55:59. > :56:01.guard is removed immediately. There are 35 different competencies that a
:56:02. > :56:05.guard carries out, look at the Watford accident last week, the
:56:06. > :56:09.guard if they could all the passengers, co-ordinated emergency
:56:10. > :56:18.services, nothing to do with doors. That was a train in a tunnel. You
:56:19. > :56:22.have rejected the offer they have put on the table and put forward a
:56:23. > :56:29.counter offer? We have put forward a counter offer which is positive.
:56:30. > :56:32.We're not interested in money, we never wanted money, we have never
:56:33. > :56:36.asked for money, we told them they don't want their money. Do you think
:56:37. > :56:39.there's a backlash against this now, bearing in mind the destruction that
:56:40. > :56:45.has gone on for commuters? There is a backlash against this company,
:56:46. > :56:49.they have launched a disastrous PR campaign, they are proposing to
:56:50. > :56:53.spend ?1.5 million on this dispute, the put a backlash against them is
:56:54. > :56:56.phenomenal, Everton they open their mouths, they put their foot in it.
:56:57. > :57:02.They want to get around the table and get to a reasonable settlement.
:57:03. > :57:06.So are you optimistic they will be a deal and this 14 days of strikes
:57:07. > :57:08.will be avoided? I don't want to clear the picture that I'm never
:57:09. > :57:13.that of the mystic because they are being driven by the DFT, Peter
:57:14. > :57:19.Wilkinson has publicly they want to smash the RMT -- I am that
:57:20. > :57:24.optimistic. The compromise on our side is that we have dealt with the
:57:25. > :57:28.offer to migrate people to the new grade, offered to have a new train
:57:29. > :57:32.dispatch procedure and to give them method of competencies without
:57:33. > :57:34.costing them any money, that will secure disabled people, the
:57:35. > :57:42.vulnerable, having access to the trains and assistance at all times.
:57:43. > :57:46.This has caused unbelievable disruption over a long period of
:57:47. > :57:50.time, what needs to happen? I don't know enough about what is going on,
:57:51. > :57:57.but something I've always thought about the way we cover industrial
:57:58. > :58:00.disputes in this country, they just tend to become a scene in the
:58:01. > :58:04.reporting of this issue, a real focus upon these guys as the bad
:58:05. > :58:10.guys. That is not true on this programme. That was a direct lift
:58:11. > :58:14.from their press release, but opening and closing doors, there was
:58:15. > :58:17.a fire on a training of Wales yesterday, landslip and a crash in a
:58:18. > :58:19.tunnel and a guard took care of that. The reason they will help you
:58:20. > :58:22.now! Now I know what you're thinking -
:58:23. > :58:25.hasn't it been ages since we had There's just time before we go
:58:26. > :58:32.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question for today is what has
:58:33. > :58:35.Jeremy Corbyn been buying this week? Mr Corbyn was walking Hadrian's wall
:58:36. > :58:39.- and stopped off to buy his wife That's all for today.
:58:40. > :58:42.Thanks to our guests. Andrew will be BBC One
:58:43. > :58:46.tonight at 11.45 with Michael Portillo,
:58:47. > :58:48.Liz Kendall, John Pienaar, I'll be here at noon
:58:49. > :58:51.tomorrow with all the big