:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.Should UK war planes be deployed to Syria to enforce no-fly zones?
:00:44. > :00:45.MPs hold an emergency debate on the humanitarian
:00:46. > :01:02.After her whistle-stop tour review appeared in capitals, Theresa May
:01:03. > :01:03.continues a European charm offensive, meeting the Croatian
:01:04. > :01:05.Prime Minister in Downing Street. He's been Home Secretary,
:01:06. > :01:07.Justice Secretary and Conservative big beast Ken Clarke
:01:08. > :01:10.joins me to look back And could self-build houses
:01:11. > :01:13.help solve the housing We report from Holland,
:01:14. > :01:26.where cheap flat-pack This house was built in a factory.
:01:27. > :01:32.They built it, they put it on a big truck, set it up in one day. It took
:01:33. > :01:35.one day? It took one day. And with us for the whole
:01:36. > :01:40.of the programme today the former Conservative Chancellor,
:01:41. > :01:55.Home Secretary and Lord We never have time to list them all
:01:56. > :01:58.in one go! God no, don't go through my tedious CV, it is very long!
:01:59. > :02:01.In the next hour, MPs will discuss the situation in Syria
:02:02. > :02:02.after the former International Development Secretary Andrew
:02:03. > :02:04.Mitchell secured a debate in the House of Commons.
:02:05. > :02:07.Speaking to the BBC earlier, Mr Mitchell argued that a no-fly
:02:08. > :02:11.zone should now be enforced over Syria to protect civilians.
:02:12. > :02:23.And that British planes could be involved. No one wants to see a
:02:24. > :02:27.firefight with Russia, no one wants to shoot down a Russian plane, that
:02:28. > :02:33.the international community has on about responsibility to protect,
:02:34. > :02:35.which must be exerted. If that means confronting Russian ab power,
:02:36. > :02:40.defensively, on behalf of the innocents on the ground, we are
:02:41. > :02:45.trying to protect, we should do that. If it meant British planes
:02:46. > :02:49.being involved, so be it? I think Britain should explore with lights
:02:50. > :02:56.out force a no-fly zone. It is clearly not something we could do
:02:57. > :02:58.alone, but as part of the coalition of the willing to confront this
:02:59. > :03:02.awful catastrophe, we should do that if we are able to do so.
:03:03. > :03:07.Ken Clarke, how practical is that suggestion of a no-fly zone, that we
:03:08. > :03:13.the British would help in force? Obviously we cannot do it alone. The
:03:14. > :03:17.question is what we would do if, which is unlikely, I think, the
:03:18. > :03:21.American smooth to do that. We have been rejecting that for years
:03:22. > :03:26.because the risk of direct conflict with Russians is very considerable,
:03:27. > :03:30.there are lots of Russian Out to ground and ground to air missile
:03:31. > :03:36.systems which are very modern and effective. It would be a very high
:03:37. > :03:40.risk strategy. What is happening in Aleppo is one of the several major
:03:41. > :03:42.crises in the world, the British alone will not be able to do
:03:43. > :03:45.anything. He said it would not be Britain
:03:46. > :03:51.alone but he wanted Britain to take the central role because they that
:03:52. > :03:55.because he says they still have a strong diplomatic position, which we
:03:56. > :04:00.could argue about. Andrea Mitchell likens Russia to the Nazis in 1930s
:04:01. > :04:02.Spain in terms of breaking international law, they are
:04:03. > :04:06.destroying United Nations in its ability to act in the way that the
:04:07. > :04:10.Germans and Italians to strike the league of Nations in the 1930s. He
:04:11. > :04:15.is trying to make it so serious that there is a call to action, if you
:04:16. > :04:21.like? These historic comparisons... He is right to dramatise it. Here's
:04:22. > :04:24.a friend of mine, but the attitude to warfare in the Second World War
:04:25. > :04:31.was very different to now. Strongly support the idea that we now have a
:04:32. > :04:36.rule of international law. The Russians are breaking it? Certainly.
:04:37. > :04:40.They say they are sovereign and all that. They are binding on a lot
:04:41. > :04:45.about sovereignty. I think we should all abide by international law, we
:04:46. > :04:53.should put pressure on them. It has not worked. Angie says we should
:04:54. > :04:57.discuss with allies. -- Andrew says. With our allies, we have declined to
:04:58. > :05:04.do this for several years, one can only hope that worldwide pressure,
:05:05. > :05:08.the shock, horror at the scale of civilian losses just likely in
:05:09. > :05:14.Aleppo might get the Russians and the Syrians to modify what they are
:05:15. > :05:18.doing. What do you think Theresa May's instinct would be, and will
:05:19. > :05:23.be, over this situation? Andrew Mitchell says he has spoken to her,
:05:24. > :05:29.and like any person would be, it is sympathetic. But beyond that, what
:05:30. > :05:33.would her instincts be? I don't know. As a guess? I think her
:05:34. > :05:37.reaction to the humanitarian tragedy would be the same as any other
:05:38. > :05:41.civilised person. When you are Prime Minister you have a key role with
:05:42. > :05:47.the Foreign Secretary in deciding how far you will escalate this. The
:05:48. > :05:52.most important thing is what view she takes with President Obama if,
:05:53. > :05:59.which I doubt, President Obama starts contemplating doing this. Is
:06:00. > :06:04.there any point in having this debate? Well, I think it will give
:06:05. > :06:08.rise to almost universal agreement on all sides that this is an
:06:09. > :06:12.outrage. The shock and horror at the likely scale and more civilian
:06:13. > :06:20.casualties to the ones we have already had. The British are slow to
:06:21. > :06:26.come to terms with that diminishing role in the world and are viewed by
:06:27. > :06:31.the rest of the world, I may say so, particularly since the Brexit vote,
:06:32. > :06:35.as America's most faithful satellite. Russians, I have met
:06:36. > :06:39.Russians who have told me that if we want to know what British foreign
:06:40. > :06:44.policy is, we ring up Washington. So I hope the speeches this afternoon
:06:45. > :06:47.do not start imagining that any of this can happen without Washington
:06:48. > :06:49.agreeing to do this. Let's leave it there.
:06:50. > :06:53.The question for today is, "What is Theresa May
:06:54. > :06:54.reported to have banned from Cabinet meetings?"
:06:55. > :07:08.At the end of the show, Ken will give us the correct answer.
:07:09. > :07:12.The Government is adamant there will be no running
:07:13. > :07:16.But MPs on all sides of the House are arguing that Parliament
:07:17. > :07:18.should have a final say on the UK's negotiating terms.
:07:19. > :07:20.Number Ten says these MPs are trying to thwart
:07:21. > :07:25.Yesterday the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU defended
:07:26. > :07:27.the Government's right to proceed without Parliament's
:07:28. > :07:37.Let's take a look at some of the exchanges.
:07:38. > :07:39.The referendum was backed by 6-1 in this House
:07:40. > :07:42.and on all sides of the argument, Leave and Remain, we have a duty
:07:43. > :07:47.to respect and carry out the people's instructions.
:07:48. > :07:50.As I said, the mandate is clear and we'll reject any attempt to undo
:07:51. > :07:54.the referendum result, any attempt to hold up the process
:07:55. > :07:58.unduly or any attempt to keep Britain in the EU by the back door
:07:59. > :08:06.by those who didn't like the answer they were given on June 23rd.
:08:07. > :08:08.During the referendum campaign, much was made on the Leave
:08:09. > :08:11.side about parliamentary sovereignty.
:08:12. > :08:14.In his statement, the Secretary of State says, "We will return
:08:15. > :08:19.sovereignty to the institutions of this United Kingdom."
:08:20. > :08:23.Yet it seems the Government wants to draw up negotiating terms,
:08:24. > :08:30.negotiate and reach a deal without any parliamentary approval.
:08:31. > :08:33.That is not making Parliament sovereign.
:08:34. > :08:42.Can I point out to him that if he is to advise his opposite
:08:43. > :08:46.number, he might remind him that the repeal of the 72
:08:47. > :08:51.European Communities Act, will give many, many opportunities
:08:52. > :08:54.to amend and debate every single aspect of the discussions around
:08:55. > :09:03.And just in case they haven't noticed, they always have the device
:09:04. > :09:06.of Opposition Days when they can debate absolutely anything
:09:07. > :09:12.they choose, even the whole issue of the European Union.
:09:13. > :09:15.So may I urge him to get on with the process and don't listen
:09:16. > :09:20.to those who really want to bog it down and never let it happen.
:09:21. > :09:23.Three days before he was appointed, the Secretary of State published
:09:24. > :09:25.an article saying it was very important to publish
:09:26. > :09:34.Can he tell us when is he going to publish that white paper?
:09:35. > :09:36.And as someone who, for many years, railed about the importance
:09:37. > :09:40.of the powers of backbenchers and Parliament against
:09:41. > :09:44.the executive, can he give us, now, with a straight face,
:09:45. > :09:47.an answer to the question - where is the Government's mandate
:09:48. > :09:51.for its negotiations, either from this House
:09:52. > :09:57.I've been a great admirer of the Secretary of State
:09:58. > :10:00.for his staunch defence of civil liberties and his staunch defence
:10:01. > :10:05.I was a great admirer when he moved the bill on parliamentary control
:10:06. > :10:08.of the executive in 1999, where he stirringly told us that
:10:09. > :10:11.executive decisions by the Government should be
:10:12. > :10:15.subject to the scrutiny and approval of Parliament.
:10:16. > :10:17.So, could he tell us, on the basis of what constitutional
:10:18. > :10:20.principle, can he believe now that the Prime Minister can now
:10:21. > :10:24.arregate for herself, the exclusive right to interpret
:10:25. > :10:27.what Brexit means, impose it upon the country,
:10:28. > :10:29.rather than respect the rightful role of scrutiny
:10:30. > :10:43.My right honourable friend will be aware that sometimes it is very
:10:44. > :10:45.important to pay attention to the Liberal elite
:10:46. > :10:48.and he will be aware that on referendum night we were told,
:10:49. > :10:51."I will forgive no-one who does not respect the sovereign
:10:52. > :10:53.voice of the British people once it has spoken,
:10:54. > :11:05.When the British people have spoken, you do what they command,
:11:06. > :11:07.either you believe in democracy or you do not."
:11:08. > :11:10.Those were the words of Lord Ashdown on Norton-sub-Hamdon in the district
:11:11. > :11:14.of Somerset, who is the most elitist Liberal I know.
:11:15. > :11:18.Can I, therefore, urge my right honourable friend to be true
:11:19. > :11:21.to the views of Lord Ashdown, to the principles of Liberalism
:11:22. > :11:23.and the traditions of this House and give affect to the
:11:24. > :11:31.17 million votes were cast on June 23rd for Britain to leave
:11:32. > :11:34.the European Union and attempts by anti-democratic and ill-liberal
:11:35. > :11:37.voices on the opposition benches, to thwart the British
:11:38. > :11:51.people's will, will rightly, be treated with disdain.
:11:52. > :11:55.We're joined now by the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, who campaigned
:11:56. > :12:03.Welcome to the programme. Ken Clarke, would you support the call
:12:04. > :12:08.from Labour and the Liberal Democrats for a vote on the
:12:09. > :12:14.Government's initial negotiating position? Yes, I will. The problem
:12:15. > :12:18.with the referendum was that nobody voted for anything, no two
:12:19. > :12:21.Brexiteers entirely agreed with each other on exactly what you would do
:12:22. > :12:26.in the event of them winning it. We are now deeply immersed, because it
:12:27. > :12:29.is the most urgent problem, in trade arrangements with Europe and a lot
:12:30. > :12:35.of other countries in the rest of the world which were the subject
:12:36. > :12:40.matter of the referendum -- which were not the subject matter of the
:12:41. > :12:44.referendum in the faintest detail. First shows the overriding
:12:45. > :12:48.constitutional situation. We have a Parliamentary democracy, Government
:12:49. > :12:54.is made better when made accountable of the details of what it does to a
:12:55. > :12:58.representative. Jacob Rees-Mogg, the opening remark, no two Brexiteers
:12:59. > :13:03.had the same vision. So there has to be a vote on that initial
:13:04. > :13:09.negotiating stance? I think this is wrong, it is fascinating but none of
:13:10. > :13:13.the pro-Remainers asked for a debate on David Cameron's negotiating terms
:13:14. > :13:17.before he did his wee negotiation. That was deemed to be a perfectly
:13:18. > :13:26.normal exercise by the Government of its powers. It is unknown to have
:13:27. > :13:30.this type of vote on what a Government may negotiate. Parliament
:13:31. > :13:34.scrutinises what has been done rather than authorised. It may be
:13:35. > :13:38.unknown, but is it wrong to have some sort of vote by Parliament,
:13:39. > :13:43.bearing in mind sovereignty was such a cornerstone of your whole
:13:44. > :13:48.campaign? Why deny parliament that sovereignty? Parliament is not
:13:49. > :13:53.denied any God at all. It is having a vote tomorrow on an opposition Day
:13:54. > :14:00.motion... That is not binding in any way. Legislation comes at the end of
:14:01. > :14:03.the process, not be beginning. The constitution is very
:14:04. > :14:07.straightforward, it has separation of powers between the executive, the
:14:08. > :14:13.legislature and the judiciary. The executive links the day-to-day
:14:14. > :14:17.decisions, they require legislative approval for which they had to go to
:14:18. > :14:21.Parliament, Parliament provides redress of grievances. As yet there
:14:22. > :14:26.is no grievance because there is no decision. Your concern and your call
:14:27. > :14:30.for a vote at this opening stage will just feel the argument that you
:14:31. > :14:34.just want to thwart the referendum result? That is a way of getting out
:14:35. > :14:38.of debating what we are going for. The Government does not know what it
:14:39. > :14:44.is going for, although at Conference they are effectively announced we
:14:45. > :14:46.are leaving the single market and the customs union, the very reverse
:14:47. > :14:49.of what was argued in the referendum, because everyone was in
:14:50. > :14:55.favour of free trade and remaining are trading links. The idea that you
:14:56. > :15:00.can interpret Parliamentary sovereignty in the constitution,
:15:01. > :15:05.which Jacob and I are both ardent supporters of, Parliament never
:15:06. > :15:08.discusses policy. Parliament cannot vote on policy. It can only wait to
:15:09. > :15:14.see whatever the Government wants to do and allow it to happen, only then
:15:15. > :15:17.can it a vote when the Government has committed the country to all
:15:18. > :15:22.these decisions. That is a startling diminution of the role of
:15:23. > :15:26.Parliament. Even in the face of a referendum. Just before I come back
:15:27. > :15:34.to you, Jacob Rees-Mogg, when you say that the vote to Leave did not
:15:35. > :15:37.automatically mean leaving the single market, what does it mean to
:15:38. > :15:45.leave the EU if it is not to leave the single market? Different voters
:15:46. > :15:49.had different views on both sides. A lot of it is interpreted as wanting
:15:50. > :15:52.fewer foreigners. But there were many intelligence and perfectly
:15:53. > :15:55.civilised people on the Leave side with different arguments. One thing
:15:56. > :16:00.all the Leave people agreed on was the virtue of free trade. For 40
:16:01. > :16:05.years I have been an party divided over Europe, the one thing we all
:16:06. > :16:10.agree on is how marvellous free traders. Liam Fox still makes the
:16:11. > :16:14.case. Now we are going protection is.
:16:15. > :16:20.That's the wrong. The sippingle market is not free trade much it is
:16:21. > :16:24.protectionism on a European scale of the outside the single market and
:16:25. > :16:28.customs union we can have genuine free trade and people voted to leave
:16:29. > :16:31.the European Union. The single market and customs union are the
:16:32. > :16:35.main stay of the European Union. If we remain in those, we have not left
:16:36. > :16:41.the European Union. Do you accept that? We ruled out staying in.
:16:42. > :16:45.The key thing, for the benefit of our children and grandchildren, if
:16:46. > :16:50.we possible can, stay in the single market and customs union and Jacob
:16:51. > :16:55.agrees with me. I think Jacob mees mog is saying the single mark set
:16:56. > :17:02.San intrinsic part of being in the EU. If you leave the EU, you do
:17:03. > :17:07.leave the single market. It is It is the biggest free trade area the in
:17:08. > :17:10.world. 500 million. It is a free trade area, you don't want to be
:17:11. > :17:14.part of it. It is a regulated ynchts all markets are regulated. It brings
:17:15. > :17:18.ne. U regulation, EU courts and EU law. If we remain until the single
:17:19. > :17:22.market, we remain until the European Union, we have to leave it and we
:17:23. > :17:25.also have, crucially, customs barriers against the rest of the
:17:26. > :17:30.world which in some cases are very high. It is not free trade if we
:17:31. > :17:33.remain in the single market. Do you accept it wasn't explicit in the
:17:34. > :17:36.vote leave campaign, that actually it was left vague enough that
:17:37. > :17:42.somehow there was a reluctance to state very clearly, at that point,
:17:43. > :17:45.that voting to Leave the EU, would automatically, in the minds of the
:17:46. > :17:50.vote Leave campaign, mean leaving the single market? I think that was
:17:51. > :17:54.obvious. It wasn't stated clearly. It might have been obvious to you.
:17:55. > :17:58.Within the campaign it was stated very clearly that once we left, we
:17:59. > :18:01.would need to negotiate a free trade agreement with the European Union.
:18:02. > :18:05.There would have been no need to do that if we remained in the single
:18:06. > :18:08.market and the vote was about leaving the European Union. Yet the
:18:09. > :18:11.single market is the heart, the beating heart of the European Union.
:18:12. > :18:17.If we were still part of, that our blood circulation would be caused by
:18:18. > :18:21.the European Union. Forgive me with the medical analogy. You do accept
:18:22. > :18:25.that leaving the EU meant not being part of the European part, European
:18:26. > :18:29.Commission, not being part of the key EU institutions, including the
:18:30. > :18:33.single market. No, no. Different breaks etteers argued different
:18:34. > :18:37.things during the referendum dch - Brexiteers. But the majority argued
:18:38. > :18:42.that leaving the European Union need have no effect on our economic
:18:43. > :18:47.relationships. People said - this is our biggest single market, the only
:18:48. > :18:50.set of countries with whom we have negotiated, completely free entry
:18:51. > :18:54.for most of our goods and quite a lot of our services, we previously
:18:55. > :19:00.were trying to get more. When we argue that it is very important to
:19:01. > :19:04.our future economics position, Brexiteers said - oh that's all
:19:05. > :19:07.right, they'll give us that because we are so important to them we'll
:19:08. > :19:11.carry on as before. First thing we are doing now, is withdrawing from
:19:12. > :19:15.it all. On that basis, if you say it was obvious to everybody who voted
:19:16. > :19:18.Leave that Britain would then leave the single market because, as you
:19:19. > :19:23.say, it is the beating heart of the EU, does that mean the Government
:19:24. > :19:27.has a mandate it take us out of anything that has EU fingerprints on
:19:28. > :19:32.it? We have a mandate to leave the European Union. Sure. The European
:19:33. > :19:37.aviation safety agency? We don't have to be part - we cannot remaybe
:19:38. > :19:41.part of any European body that is exclusively members of the European
:19:42. > :19:45.Union and has the European Court of Justice as its ultimate arbiter, but
:19:46. > :19:49.on the point of the single market, the EU is in the midst of
:19:50. > :19:57.negotiations with the United States and with Canada to increase access
:19:58. > :20:01.to its market by those countries. It hasn't been ratified the Canadians
:20:02. > :20:06.said and has taken a long time. But it would be bizarre for the European
:20:07. > :20:09.Union to put up trade barriers on a country, which on the day we leave,
:20:10. > :20:12.meets all its regulatory requirements. If they wish to do
:20:13. > :20:19.they'll harm their own economy. They may chose to do that but it would be
:20:20. > :20:24.an eccentric thing for them to do. What do you say about this, that
:20:25. > :20:28.there would be an almost of self-harm to punish Britain, if you
:20:29. > :20:32.like, by leaving the EU, and trying to associate some sort of trade deal
:20:33. > :20:38.which Boris Johnson said, we can have our cake and eat it which for
:20:39. > :20:43.many meant staying part of the single market. Is Jacob Rees-Mogg
:20:44. > :20:46.right, that they won't harm themselves or risking tariffs being
:20:47. > :20:50.put on goods that they would like to import from Britain in these
:20:51. > :20:53.negotiations? Well, there will be some harm to the continental
:20:54. > :20:58.economy, that is right. The things we are asking of them are things
:20:59. > :21:02.they can't possibly concede, that every other country they have any
:21:03. > :21:05.trade relationship with - and some of the weaker Member States,
:21:06. > :21:09.demanding exactly the same. Once you say - we are going to stop free
:21:10. > :21:14.movement of labour, your nationals are going to require work visas if
:21:15. > :21:18.they come in our bit of the single market, once we say we are not going
:21:19. > :21:23.to obey the rules of the market, we are going to make them all British
:21:24. > :21:26.first, but when we can think of one we want to repeal and at the moment
:21:27. > :21:30.the Brexiteers can't, we'll change or we will look for some that we
:21:31. > :21:33.want it change to make them British and we are not going to accept the
:21:34. > :21:38.European Court. Because the European Court. The reason the EU works is
:21:39. > :21:43.the European Court enforces the treaty obligations on 28 governments
:21:44. > :21:49.who wouldn't otherwise agree. The last big case we had there was a
:21:50. > :21:53.triumph because we were able to get into eurozone financial markets. I
:21:54. > :21:56.think Mr Clarke in that answer which shows which remaining in the single
:21:57. > :22:00.market remains leaving in the European Union. Hep doesn't want to
:22:01. > :22:04.leave the European Union, he regrets the vote and staying under the
:22:05. > :22:12.auspices of the European Court of Justice in anyway... Which case have
:22:13. > :22:15.we lost? It is a superior law So is the international court in The
:22:16. > :22:23.Hague. Are we pulling out of them all? No, it applies law that we
:22:24. > :22:29.apply via Parliament which ECJ law is our law amount and doesn't
:22:30. > :22:33.require approval. Give us some example of laws you have been
:22:34. > :22:46.unhappy about or you would appeal? Into well things that affect my
:22:47. > :22:53.farmers, the three crop ru. The ban on neonicotine ooids. The 40-working
:22:54. > :22:59.week when we had a opt-out under the social charter that. 'S the point of
:23:00. > :23:03.it. That the European Court has been a politicising court pushing
:23:04. > :23:07.ever-closer to the European Union. Are there key Ken Clarke decisions
:23:08. > :23:12.One we lost, I was around when it happened, we went there, contrary to
:23:13. > :23:15.our own legal advice, arguing that the working time corrective, the
:23:16. > :23:20.48-hour rule was not a health regulation. The reason Victorians
:23:21. > :23:25.prere stricted hours of work was for health. We lost that. Theresa made
:23:26. > :23:30.it quite clear, one thing we are not going to do is start tightening up
:23:31. > :23:33.on labour regulations, so we are not going take advantage of leaving so
:23:34. > :23:38.people are obliged to work more than 48 hours if they don't want to. A
:23:39. > :23:41.law you would appeal, the minute we have subsupered all that of European
:23:42. > :23:46.law into British law, and then you keep t which would you get rid of
:23:47. > :23:51.it. I would get rid of the three crop rule straightaway. There are
:23:52. > :23:56.hundreds of rules. You say that. Ban chemicals and pesticides, if you
:23:57. > :24:00.think about agriculture. I represent a rural constituency Is and Friends
:24:01. > :24:04.of the Earth there? It would give us freedom to set our own fishing
:24:05. > :24:09.quotas that would benefit our fishermen. We would be able to have
:24:10. > :24:14.light bulb that work so people can see in the dark. There are all sorts
:24:15. > :24:21.of useful issues. People would argue it is not intrinsic for life. We can
:24:22. > :24:26.have all these German car that is are poisoning us and people are
:24:27. > :24:31.trigger the figurers, we wouldn't have to have them. Well, there have
:24:32. > :24:36.been a dramatic fall in the value of sterling, we had already had aer if
:24:37. > :24:41.cast saying there would be a 4% hit to GDP in Brexit and a cathedral the
:24:42. > :24:45.aic drop in tax revenues and today on the front page of the Times
:24:46. > :24:52.leaked papers say that Brexit can cost ?66 billion a year R they all
:24:53. > :24:57.scare stories or are they the bumps in the road It is not a he can laked
:24:58. > :25:00.paper. It is a bad paper it put together, a dishonest Pape ter
:25:01. > :25:03.putted together during the Brexit campaign which said if we left the
:25:04. > :25:07.European Union and imposed tariffs on everybody who sells to us, we
:25:08. > :25:10.would have a bad economic time. It is a completely stupid paper and the
:25:11. > :25:13.Treasury is undermining the Government's own negotiating
:25:14. > :25:19.position and it is really serious that the Treasury is behaving like
:25:20. > :25:25.this Or Or is there any truth? It is an abuse of its position. It is a
:25:26. > :25:30.bogus report. I accept your point that there should be an inquiry.
:25:31. > :25:34.Just on sterling. Well on sterling and reports there could be 5 p a
:25:35. > :25:39.litre on petrol by the end of the week, are they the bumps in the
:25:40. > :25:43.road? Well the oil price has gone up, it always has an faevenlingt
:25:44. > :25:47.well, devaluation, the last two devaluations in this country, 1992,
:25:48. > :25:51.before you took over as Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 1931 when we
:25:52. > :25:54.went for gold standard, led to enormous increases in the prosperity
:25:55. > :25:58.of the country. This is nothing to do with Brexit? No, Brexit has
:25:59. > :26:06.brought forward the devaluation of the knot pound which was considered
:26:07. > :26:12.by the OMF and EOCD to be overvalued. What about that? Well,
:26:13. > :26:15.that is being too technical, the tariffs, that was all settled by the
:26:16. > :26:20.referendum, apparently. But what about devaluation? Since 2006 when
:26:21. > :26:26.we had the financial crash, we have devalued by 40%. We now have the
:26:27. > :26:30.worst current account deficit, usually most people call it the
:26:31. > :26:34.balance of payment, that we have had in our history. The eurosceptic
:26:35. > :26:40.argument that junking your own currency is somehow a marvellous
:26:41. > :26:45.advantage, which they have pedalled for years is, I fear, an illusion,
:26:46. > :26:50.an absolute illusion. The markets did collapse, I agree, given the
:26:51. > :26:54.state of affairs we have, it was probably slightly overvalue bud they
:26:55. > :26:58.collapsed because their judgment was the long-term outlook of the British
:26:59. > :27:01.economy was bad. I mean we are no longer the nift biggest economy in
:27:02. > :27:07.the world, we are the sixth now. Already. And we are going to go
:27:08. > :27:09.further if we are not careful. Briefly and finally, Jacob
:27:10. > :27:13.Rees-Mogg. If being poorer as a nation for a short period of time,
:27:14. > :27:19.you may not believe we are going to be poorer as a nation at all. But if
:27:20. > :27:22.it is the price to pay for what you see as controlling borders and a
:27:23. > :27:25.return of sovereignty, is that worth it? We will be richer we will be
:27:26. > :27:28.outside the dead-handed control of the European Union. We can set our
:27:29. > :27:32.own tariffs, have cheaper goods coming N It ridiculous report from
:27:33. > :27:37.some lobby group yesterday saying the price of goodwill go up. It'll
:27:38. > :27:41.go down. Why? We can reduce tariffs against the rest of the world, which
:27:42. > :27:45.in the EU we can't do. All the scaremongering put to one side and
:27:46. > :27:46.look beautifully, behind you, the picture of broad, sunny uplands.
:27:47. > :27:50.Thank you. Cast your mind back
:27:51. > :27:53.to the Labour party conference and the speech given
:27:54. > :27:54.by Labour's London Mayor, His message - Labour needs to win
:27:55. > :27:59.election to wield real power. Labour out of power will never,
:28:00. > :28:04.ever be good enough. We can only improve lives
:28:05. > :28:06.with Labour in power, by winning elections,
:28:07. > :28:08.by putting Labour values Real Labour values -
:28:09. > :28:14.equality, social justice It's only with Labour in power
:28:15. > :28:21.that we can create a fairer, And when Labour is not in power,
:28:22. > :28:28.we fail the very people Well, today, a left-of-centre think
:28:29. > :28:35.tank, the New Economics Foundation, has published its plan for pursuing
:28:36. > :28:39.policies outside of government, with ideas such as locally produced
:28:40. > :28:42.energy, childcare co-operatives All aimed at giving people more
:28:43. > :28:48.control over their lives. The NEF's Chief Executive,
:28:49. > :28:59.a former speechwriter Welcome to the programme S this
:29:00. > :29:03.added mission that the left are going to be out of power for a
:29:04. > :29:06.generation? No, it begins with the assumption, the truth that we are in
:29:07. > :29:09.a terrible state as a country, that the economy doesn't work for
:29:10. > :29:12.millions of people. That Leave voters, we know they felt they
:29:13. > :29:16.didn't have control and this is' why they voted to leave the European
:29:17. > :29:22.Union but we have polled Remain voters too and found the same
:29:23. > :29:26.output. 25%, just 25% of Remain voters say their voices count in
:29:27. > :29:29.politics. So we are in a mess. We need real change and we can't wait
:29:30. > :29:33.for any general election, whenever that might be. Do you agree with
:29:34. > :29:38.Sadiq Khan, the best way to affect change is to win an election? Where
:29:39. > :29:43.we find ourselves now, is there are new opportunities for change than
:29:44. > :29:49.there have ever been before. Sad evening Khan, as devolved mayor has
:29:50. > :29:54.an opportunity to do things in London which his predecessors
:29:55. > :29:57.couldn't have town down and that will be true in Manchester. There
:29:58. > :30:02.are innovative businesses starting all over the country. Trade unions,
:30:03. > :30:06.interested in create sowing enterprise communities. We live in a
:30:07. > :30:10.time when politics, and general elections matter but there are a
:30:11. > :30:14.different ways of doing things than we have in the past It sounds like
:30:15. > :30:17.you have given up on the mainstream process because it doesn't get
:30:18. > :30:22.things done that people actually want and isn't from your side of the
:30:23. > :30:26.spectrum, if you like. Is there some truth in that, you will be lobbying
:30:27. > :30:29.for power and effective change rather than running the show? Some
:30:30. > :30:32.of my best friends are politicians. You admit That they are important
:30:33. > :30:35.people but all politician, even Ken would acknowledge, we are in a
:30:36. > :30:39.situation where the public has moved away from thinking about mainstream,
:30:40. > :30:43.Westminster, Whitehall politics, as the primary solution to the
:30:44. > :30:48.challenges we face They are looking, people of all parties and none, are
:30:49. > :30:51.looking for new ways, fresh ways of getting things done now, rather than
:30:52. > :30:52.having to wait for a general election.
:30:53. > :31:03.Do you agree with that assessment? I don't. I agree with the analysis
:31:04. > :31:06.of the unsatisfactory state of public opinion whether political
:31:07. > :31:10.class is held with contempt, lots of young people switch off from
:31:11. > :31:13.politics altogether and a lot of old people feel let down by the
:31:14. > :31:18.consequences of automation and change under more complicated world
:31:19. > :31:23.and so on. But in the middle of it all, the real politics, for most
:31:24. > :31:28.mainstream people, concerns the better governance of the country. In
:31:29. > :31:33.the end, you require a government. Government policies affect these
:31:34. > :31:40.things, all our lives, therefore, in the end, holding political power and
:31:41. > :31:44.the ability to put what you believe are issues in the national interest
:31:45. > :31:49.in effect, that is what most politicians had to be about. I have
:31:50. > :31:55.not read this paper, to be fair, but the extracts sent to me rather nice,
:31:56. > :32:00.rather naive, probably, perhaps worth trying, one two, but local
:32:01. > :32:05.experiments that might be tried to see if they have an effect in one or
:32:06. > :32:08.two parts of the country is not governing Britain in a very
:32:09. > :32:14.difficult, dangerous and changing world. It reminded me a little bit
:32:15. > :32:24.of David Cameron's Big Society, locally produced energy, childcare
:32:25. > :32:29.cooperatives, taxi apps run by the drivers. This is small scale
:32:30. > :32:34.solutions run by local people? I just left an event that we are
:32:35. > :32:37.running at The New Economic Foundation, we heard from one career
:32:38. > :32:41.driver paid the London living wage whose every move is tracked by
:32:42. > :32:45.headquarter at head office, who feels as their life has got totally
:32:46. > :32:49.out of control, they can't earn enough to feed their families but
:32:50. > :32:55.their workplace experience is really dire. We have tabbed solutions to
:32:56. > :32:59.those problems. The Government has a big challenge ahead, we have talked
:33:00. > :33:03.about that throughout the programme, the Brexit debate will not go away,
:33:04. > :33:07.Parliamentary time will be sucked up thinking about our relationship with
:33:08. > :33:11.the European Union, but I can't stand there and look in the face of
:33:12. > :33:15.people living with the real troubles of our economy and say, well, we
:33:16. > :33:20.will not do anything because that sounds like Big Society or too
:33:21. > :33:28.small-scale. It is the job of people like as in the think tank world to
:33:29. > :33:30.think about solutions to put in place tomorrow which would change
:33:31. > :33:33.people's lives for the better. Is that a worthwhile cause if, as the
:33:34. > :33:37.accusation goes, the Government will be consumed by Brexit negotiations?
:33:38. > :33:43.There is a real danger that it will be, and we have important things to
:33:44. > :33:48.handle. Obviously I am a former Chancellor and all that, the key to
:33:49. > :33:51.these problems is proper management of the economy, recovering growth,
:33:52. > :33:56.lowering inflation and sustaining it. I quite agree that we have to
:33:57. > :34:00.address how to spread the benefits of our better. Capitalists,
:34:01. > :34:07.free-market enthusiasts, the too long have overlooked the fact that
:34:08. > :34:09.there is a whole section of the population, particularly in the
:34:10. > :34:13.change industrial North and North Midlands, left behind. Start with
:34:14. > :34:16.the good governance of the country, having the right Chancellor, not Mr
:34:17. > :34:20.McDonnell, then look at all these things that might spread the
:34:21. > :34:30.benefits better and make sure people don't fall through the gaps. Thank
:34:31. > :34:32.you very much becoming in, Mark. -- for coming in.
:34:33. > :34:35.My guest of the day - Ken Clarke - has enjoyed a political
:34:36. > :34:38.He served as Health Secretary, Education Secretary,
:34:39. > :34:39.Home Secretary and Chancellor of the Exchequer in
:34:40. > :34:43.He was then called back into frontline politics by David Cameron,
:34:44. > :34:45.joining the Cabinet as Justice Secretary in 2010.
:34:46. > :34:48.He's just published his memoirs, "Kind of Blue", and we'll talk
:34:49. > :34:50.a bit about Ken's life in politics in just a moment.
:34:51. > :35:09.# Seas would rise when I gave the word.
:35:10. > :35:31.MUSIC PLAYS: Viva La Vida by Coldplay.
:35:32. > :35:36.Apologies for presenting this first Budget rather like a lion tamer
:35:37. > :35:39.trying out his act for the first time, but I've decided
:35:40. > :35:50.to tackle the difficulties I face in a direct way.
:35:51. > :35:57.Go away, lie down in a dark room, keep taking the tablets
:35:58. > :36:01.and think very carefully whether the Liberal Democrats
:36:02. > :36:04.have a single opinion one way or the other on the merits of any
:36:05. > :36:12.We're searching for a leader who will be seen by the public
:36:13. > :36:27.Well, oh, boy, have you kept me waiting!
:36:28. > :36:29.Theresa's a bloody difficult woman, but you and I worked
:36:30. > :36:52.Ken Clarke, you were enjoying that? I haven't seen some of those clips
:36:53. > :36:56.for ages, did not know they existed. You have been in politics for a very
:36:57. > :37:01.long time, as we can see from Buzz archive clips. How has it changed in
:37:02. > :37:05.your view, and has changed for the better? In some ways are probably
:37:06. > :37:09.has. It was deferential and class divided when I started, there was a
:37:10. > :37:18.huge difference between the tweedy nights on the shires on the
:37:19. > :37:20.Conservative benches on the very working class guys on the Labour
:37:21. > :37:23.benches, it was tribal. Most families voted the same way all the
:37:24. > :37:27.time. Do you not think it is tribal? An awful lot of people under the age
:37:28. > :37:33.of 50 decide who they will vote for two or three days before polling
:37:34. > :37:37.day, which makes it so exciting but uncertain. In other ways it has
:37:38. > :37:41.diminished, because Parliament was more powerful when I started.
:37:42. > :37:47.Everything was rooted in Parliament. Although things were a bit too
:37:48. > :37:50.deferential, Government was properly accountable, very collective.
:37:51. > :37:56.Cabinet ministers had to agree things. The Parliament and the Prime
:37:57. > :38:01.Minister was a powerful first among equals. Sensible debate took place
:38:02. > :38:05.in the media, who were a bit too deferential but reported serious
:38:06. > :38:10.issues. Now it is all celebrity culture, public relations, can we
:38:11. > :38:16.get something about simply's sex life all money? If not, what
:38:17. > :38:22.exciting thing can we hang the news on two? Has that grabs your style,
:38:23. > :38:27.this practice of modern politics about message discipline, sticking
:38:28. > :38:33.to the line, media grids and so on? Have you find that difficult? I have
:38:34. > :38:38.totally ignored it! But has not escaped a goodness, thank -- that is
:38:39. > :38:42.not escaped our notice, thank goodness. David was very kind, I
:38:43. > :38:47.went football years without going along with this stuff. I think there
:38:48. > :38:50.was a Ken Clarke rule. I think it has damaged politics, the talking
:38:51. > :38:54.clock type of politics and the slogan eyes is not the main thing
:38:55. > :38:58.but is one of the things that has fed a low level of regard for
:38:59. > :39:02.politicians. Good god you say that David Cameron and his acolytes gave
:39:03. > :39:06.you free rein or just accepted that Ken Clarke was Ken Clarke, but you
:39:07. > :39:11.said you felt plotted against an deceived when he discovered in 2014,
:39:12. > :39:15.and I remember this happening, that Downing Street advisers were trying
:39:16. > :39:21.to stop you from appearing on Question Time. Why? Because they
:39:22. > :39:25.were not sure what I would say and I would not use the slogan. It was a
:39:26. > :39:30.silly, childish incident. The way they went about it, which I will
:39:31. > :39:36.discuss if you want me to come in time, it was lying to me and the
:39:37. > :39:42.producer and trying to slip in the more, in their opinion, conformist
:39:43. > :39:46.advocate. How did they explain it to you? Said the programme had made a
:39:47. > :39:50.mistake and book two conservatives, so unfortunately they were sticking
:39:51. > :39:55.with the other one, that they would have me on some time in future. The
:39:56. > :39:59.producer was called by the same people and told I was very ill, and
:40:00. > :40:04.this was not being made public because it was a personal health
:40:05. > :40:07.matter, I was not able to go, and they, very helpfully, could provide
:40:08. > :40:11.simply to take my place at very short notice. It never occurred to
:40:12. > :40:17.them but I would ring the producer and said, I thought we had fixed
:40:18. > :40:21.this ages ago, what went wrong? They miscalculated. You served three
:40:22. > :40:26.Conservative prime ministers, how did they compared? They were all
:40:27. > :40:33.quite remarkable people, completely and utterly different personalities.
:40:34. > :40:35.Ted and Margaret were two of the most one of personalities I have
:40:36. > :40:39.ever met, unlike each other, chalk and cheese. John Major was the
:40:40. > :40:46.ultimate nice guy being battered hopelessly. Cameron was the classic
:40:47. > :40:49.purveyor of the Blair style of Government. Very successful at
:40:50. > :40:54.first. He will not be given credit for it but Cameron and Osborne
:40:55. > :41:00.rescued the country from financial catastrophe. Thereafter, they got
:41:01. > :41:04.into... Back to the old politics, although Thatcher was a bloody
:41:05. > :41:10.difficult woman... You need to be careful with that phrase! And I had
:41:11. > :41:14.a very robust relationship with her, she was the best Prime Minister, I
:41:15. > :41:17.had to concede. The Thatcher Government was the one that
:41:18. > :41:23.transformed the country for the better. The Major Government
:41:24. > :41:27.consolidated and continued it in the same way, presented slightly more
:41:28. > :41:30.gently, but Thatcher was the remarkable one to work for.
:41:31. > :41:35.Do you think you changed yourself for the perception of how you were
:41:36. > :41:40.viewed by other politicians? Chewing the coalition, Nick Clegg voted --
:41:41. > :41:49.joked that he counted you as one of the Lib Dems, the Spectator called
:41:50. > :41:53.you yellow can. Did you acquire a more cuddly image? I said to Nick
:41:54. > :41:58.Clegg, you are a one nation Conservative. You only joined the
:41:59. > :42:03.Lib Dems because we were so fanatically anti-European at that
:42:04. > :42:09.time. Leaving that to one side, politics
:42:10. > :42:16.has moved. I am a believer in free market economic is with the social
:42:17. > :42:22.consequence -- conscience, I am an economic and social liberal. UR a
:42:23. > :42:25.diminishing breed on the Conservative benches? The Europeans
:42:26. > :42:29.remain in the majority on the Conservative benches, as in every
:42:30. > :42:32.other political party in the House of Commons, apart from the
:42:33. > :42:38.Democratic Unionists, but we are all slightly isolated. Being one of the
:42:39. > :42:43.stronger pro-Europeans who never agreed with the idea of a referendum
:42:44. > :42:48.anyway, with a constituency that voted to Remain, I am probably a bit
:42:49. > :42:52.on my own, but that happens to most bedroom politicians. And does not
:42:53. > :42:54.bother you? Not at all. We will have to do your addiction to standing for
:42:55. > :42:56.the leadership another time. Jeremy Corbyn took part
:42:57. > :42:59.in the regular Monday night meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party
:43:00. > :43:01.last night - his first MPs had a chance to raise concerns
:43:02. > :43:05.ranging from the recent reshuffle The Labour Leader was also asked why
:43:06. > :43:10.he had attended an anti-racism rally over the weekend that was allegedly
:43:11. > :43:12.linked to the far-left group the Socialist Workers'
:43:13. > :43:30.Party, which critics say It was founded as the Socialist
:43:31. > :43:33.Review Group in 1950. It describes itself as a rational --
:43:34. > :43:37.revolutionary socialist group. They have been involved in various
:43:38. > :43:42.campaigns over the years, for example former leading members of
:43:43. > :43:48.the SWP helped to set up the Stop The War Coalition to campaign
:43:49. > :43:55.against the invasion of Iraq in 2003. In 2013, the SWP was mired in
:43:56. > :43:57.controversy because, it was claimed, they mishandled sexual assault
:43:58. > :43:59.allegations against an individual who was at the time one of their
:44:00. > :44:07.members. We invited the SWP onto the
:44:08. > :44:12.programme, but they declined. They also said that Standard To Racism is
:44:13. > :44:18.not a front organisation for the is to be be. So Steve Hart, the
:44:19. > :44:22.vice-chair of Standard To Racism joins us, along with a Labour
:44:23. > :44:26.supporting journalist, James Bloodworth. Steve, you helped to
:44:27. > :44:32.organise this event on Saturday, what was it about and were Socialist
:44:33. > :44:36.workers involved? First of all, I am Labour supporting, I am the chair of
:44:37. > :44:40.the biggest constituency Labour Party in the country. It was an
:44:41. > :44:44.event about confronting anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and
:44:45. > :44:50.racism. It was particularly focusing around issues of refugees and,
:44:51. > :44:56.indeed, the racist atmosphere that had begun to develop in some places
:44:57. > :45:02.after Brexit. It was 1400 people. And the Socialist Workers' Party's
:45:03. > :45:07.involvement is what? They were involved, as they have been in many
:45:08. > :45:13.things, fighting fascism over the years. Are they a dominant force in
:45:14. > :45:18.Standard To Racism? One of their leading figures is co-convenor? That
:45:19. > :45:23.is right. They are not a dominant force, they are participants in
:45:24. > :45:28.Stand Up To Racism, along with many, many others. Alf Dubs was one of the
:45:29. > :45:34.speakers on Saturday. And he has campaigned for child refugees to be
:45:35. > :45:36.taken in. He has been a participant all the way through. The Muslim
:45:37. > :45:41.Council of Britain has been involved. What was the problem? With
:45:42. > :45:51.Jeremy Corbyn attending this rally? I wroo call them a front group for
:45:52. > :45:58.far left groups. The socialist Workers' Party is not a very -
:45:59. > :46:01.Trotskyism isn't popular so they form front groups around issues
:46:02. > :46:05.which are more pop larks anti-racism, anti--er with a and use
:46:06. > :46:08.it to try to recruit members. In case of the socialist Workers'
:46:09. > :46:12.Party, it is an organisation which many of us believe isn't safe for
:46:13. > :46:18.women. There was a scandal around 2013. We objected to the leader of
:46:19. > :46:24.the Labour Party giving it kind of - making this organisation credible
:46:25. > :46:27.where you have someone like Weyman Bennett who is at the top of this
:46:28. > :46:33.organisation Do you accept that criticism. Associating yourself with
:46:34. > :46:36.this organisation and the Labour MP, Jeff Phillips certainly said there
:46:37. > :46:42.shouldn't be a connection in what will you are trying to do in Stand
:46:43. > :46:45.Up to Racism, and the Socialist Workers' Party because of the way
:46:46. > :46:50.they mishandled sexual assault allegations. Well, I think she is
:46:51. > :46:55.fantastic in what she does. Jess Phillips spoke at one of our rallies
:46:56. > :47:01.in April 2015. She obviously didn't, at that point, see that as an issue.
:47:02. > :47:06.The SWP, as you have said, had serious issues around this. But
:47:07. > :47:11.then, so did the BBC, so did the Catholic Church. I'm here today, I'm
:47:12. > :47:19.not boycotting the BBC. The police have investigated those allegations.
:47:20. > :47:22.The problem with the SDW, they persuaded women who were victims of
:47:23. > :47:26.sexual assault not to go to the police. And there are groups who
:47:27. > :47:32.persuade their members not to go to the rally. There is an extensive
:47:33. > :47:39.list of people, are they all wrong? I saw a call for boycotting last
:47:40. > :47:43.Tuesday. 1500 people from up and down the country, from groups
:47:44. > :47:46.supporting refugees in Calais, and other groups that had already signed
:47:47. > :47:51.up to this. They are people who want to come. We are well aware of the
:47:52. > :47:54.situation. - who are well aware of the situation. For me, what really
:47:55. > :47:58.matters is let's try and find what unites us. I think we should be
:47:59. > :48:01.doing more, Government made some moves yesterday but we really need
:48:02. > :48:06.to get the children fromical clay. Sure Tonight I'm going to a vigil in
:48:07. > :48:13.Tottenham because a woman had her hijab torn off her. A lot of people
:48:14. > :48:16.are coming together, Stand Up to To Racism is organising that. People
:48:17. > :48:21.uniting against racism is a good thing. That's my politics. The
:48:22. > :48:23.socialist Workers' Party are not serious on the issue of
:48:24. > :48:27.anti-Semitism. This is an organisation that believes in the
:48:28. > :48:31.objectlies of the state of Israel. For most people it is an
:48:32. > :48:34.anti-Semitic place it start N I don't think they should be involved
:48:35. > :48:39.in an anti-racist campaign. If you are not serious about anti-Semitism,
:48:40. > :48:44.you cannot be serious about anti-racism across the board I'm the
:48:45. > :48:50.vice chair and I'm extremely serious about anti-Semitism and I'm
:48:51. > :48:56.extremely - regard it as extremely important that our organisation will
:48:57. > :49:00.stand up to racism. How do you feel about the People in the Socialist
:49:01. > :49:03.Workers Party that don't? Every time they have spoken about t it is
:49:04. > :49:08.clear, anti-Semitism is a problem. They along with others, have been
:49:09. > :49:11.campaigning around Irishes of anti-Semitism, recently. Do you
:49:12. > :49:16.think you are diminishing the value of your protests n terms of
:49:17. > :49:21.anti-racism, in terms of campaigning on behalf of child refugees, by
:49:22. > :49:29.association with the Socialist Workers Party when you come up with
:49:30. > :49:34.criticism by people like James Bloodworth and Jess Phillips? Well
:49:35. > :49:36.my opinion and I'm not on the far left, I actually voted for Owen
:49:37. > :49:40.Smith. I want to bring people together. Where there are issues
:49:41. > :49:53.around racism, I want to bring everybody together. I would like to
:49:54. > :49:57.see Mrs Varsi, we had had Tim Farron taking place in our rallies. I have
:49:58. > :50:03.huge respect for the anti-racism campaign but I would say they are
:50:04. > :50:08.being used by the SWP by group to recruit to their party. Similar Stop
:50:09. > :50:12.the War. It is a supporter of the regime in North Korea. These are
:50:13. > :50:17.regimes that people of left or right should be wanting to distance
:50:18. > :50:22.themselves from. You don't want to see Jeremy Corbyn attending these?
:50:23. > :50:27.Absolutely not. It lends credibility to them of which there should be
:50:28. > :50:30.none. Could self-build homes be the answer
:50:31. > :50:32.to England's housing shortage? From later this month,
:50:33. > :50:35.councils in England will be obliged to sell plots of land to anyone
:50:36. > :50:38.wanting to build their own home, and supporters of the idea reckon it
:50:39. > :50:41.will help increase the supply Mark Lobel has been
:50:42. > :50:43.to the Netherlands to see how A great place for boats,
:50:44. > :50:51.tulips and museums. If you want to go house hunting
:50:52. > :50:53.here, what better way I've
:50:54. > :51:00.joined a delegation of British MPs, planners, and industry
:51:01. > :51:02.insiders in search of well, not a standard build
:51:03. > :51:08.but a self-build or custom-built house on a piece of land
:51:09. > :51:10.with all the utilities I feel like I'm on the set
:51:11. > :51:17.of Grand Designs. First stop is Europe's biggest
:51:18. > :51:20.experiment in affordable I'm just asking because there are no
:51:21. > :51:31.windows on the front of your house. People are thinking that
:51:32. > :51:36.I love my privacy and I do, but it has nothing to do
:51:37. > :51:38.with my neighbours. And when it's dark, you can't
:51:39. > :51:45.see anything outside. Can I join you on your building
:51:46. > :51:53.site? They build it, put it on a big truck
:51:54. > :52:05.and they set it up in one day. There is an equivalent city
:52:06. > :52:17.of custom-built houses Gravenhill in Oxfordshire
:52:18. > :52:22.will accommodate almost 2,000 homes. Visiting Holland, these Cherwell
:52:23. > :52:26.district councillors are on the board of Gravenhill
:52:27. > :52:28.Village Development Company, a commercial operation
:52:29. > :52:31.owned by the council. What Gravenhill provides
:52:32. > :52:34.is the land, the plot, a significant We are also looking at things
:52:35. > :52:37.like planning and This isn't a big grand design,
:52:38. > :52:46.you need to have cash in the bank. This is about how can
:52:47. > :52:49.you build your dream home at different levels of your life
:52:50. > :52:51.and spending different But at the moment the UK
:52:52. > :52:54.lags behind its European neighbours and America,
:52:55. > :52:56.with only one-tenth of its housing stock from self
:52:57. > :52:58.or custom-built houses. Government land is sold
:52:59. > :53:05.through an agency called the Homes and Communities Agency
:53:06. > :53:07.and their legal documents You need to sit down with mortgage
:53:08. > :53:15.providers and persuade them it's going to be worth their while to
:53:16. > :53:17.adjust their computer systems to providing staged payment
:53:18. > :53:21.mortgages for custom builds. A senior figure in the mortgage
:53:22. > :53:24.industry on the visit told me self-build mortgages require
:53:25. > :53:27.a 20% larger deposit than conventional builds,
:53:28. > :53:28.that available land Well, I wrote the Self Build and
:53:29. > :53:37.Custom House Building Act and got it That's now been strengthened
:53:38. > :53:40.by the Government in this year's So, there's a further obligation
:53:41. > :53:45.on local councils to actually provide serviced plots of land,
:53:46. > :53:53.enough planning permission with serviced plots of land to deal
:53:54. > :53:56.with the demand as evidenced The Ministry of Defence's head
:53:57. > :54:02.of accommodation policy was also investigating custom
:54:03. > :54:03.house-building here. The MoD wants more staff
:54:04. > :54:05.on the housing ladder and is considering self-build
:54:06. > :54:07.for service personnel. The ministry of the defence has more
:54:08. > :54:12.than 2% of the land in the UK. They need quite a lot
:54:13. > :54:14.of that for training. They don't need all of it
:54:15. > :54:17.and they are looking at selling it I'm saying they should be a bit more
:54:18. > :54:22.imaginative about how they do that So maybe one day more land could be
:54:23. > :54:26.available for custom housing and members of the Armed Forces
:54:27. > :54:29.could be able to design We've been joined in the studio
:54:30. > :54:34.by Michael Holmes, chair of the National Custom
:54:35. > :54:41.Self Build Association. Welcome to the programme. Do you
:54:42. > :54:43.really think they could actually help solve the housing shortage?
:54:44. > :54:49.This could be a significant part of house building. You have seen the
:54:50. > :54:52.figures where it is provided elsewhere in Europe, America, Japan,
:54:53. > :54:54.Australia, New Zealand. Developed economies have a major owner
:54:55. > :54:58.commissioned sector in which the people who live in the houses get
:54:59. > :55:01.involved in the design and construction. It is in their
:55:02. > :55:04.interests to do so. But the problem is still available land. The problem
:55:05. > :55:09.we face here and the planning law that is go along with T how do you
:55:10. > :55:12.go over that? Right-to-build edge legislation which commences on
:55:13. > :55:19.October 31st will be a game change. Land at the moment comes to market
:55:20. > :55:23.as major strategic building sites that only the major house builders
:55:24. > :55:27.can access and land for the smaller sector is more or less dried up. It
:55:28. > :55:31.is an issue with the planning system. Right-to-build legislation
:55:32. > :55:35.places a duty on local authorities to build forward sites that are
:55:36. > :55:40.broken up to access plots. They'll become available for individuals who
:55:41. > :55:46.would like to buy and commission and build their own homes, it could be
:55:47. > :55:51.DIY. But most likely an SME. DIY that could take me ten years. Isn't
:55:52. > :55:55.it for people who have some money, rather than affordable Currently,
:55:56. > :55:59.you need a substantial deposit to be able it self-build. Only large plots
:56:00. > :56:06.come to market. 20% higher we heard in the film. However that may not be
:56:07. > :56:09.the case. Elsewhere in Europe they have a scheme called, I Builds
:56:10. > :56:15.Affordal where the local authority owns or you lease the land for them.
:56:16. > :56:21.You only have the cost of the build. Land is 60 to # 0%. If you take that
:56:22. > :56:25.component out and lease it on a fair rent you only have the cost of
:56:26. > :56:27.building t makes it much more affordable. What about the look. One
:56:28. > :56:30.of the biggest complaints from neighbours when their neighbours are
:56:31. > :56:33.building a house s what it'll look like. Yes, dove he sign codes, if
:56:34. > :56:39.you are Conservative and you would like to make sure your neighbour
:56:40. > :56:42.looks similar to yours, you choose a plot with a restricted design code
:56:43. > :56:47.which tells you, within this glass box, the space you can fill. If you
:56:48. > :56:51.are more avanlt guard you can chose an area where there is more freedom.
:56:52. > :56:56.Do you think this'll go down well in your constituency? Interesting. I
:56:57. > :57:00.think would be great rows about the ate peerns of them in my
:57:01. > :57:04.constituency is the honest assessment. I'm not sure my
:57:05. > :57:10.constituency is the kind of place that Michael is aiming at anyway. It
:57:11. > :57:15.can be apartments. My DIY is limited to changing a light bulb. I find it
:57:16. > :57:19.interesting. Nothing puts me off. I think it can make a contribution. I
:57:20. > :57:23.think the bigger problems in housing should keep trying it tackle, go
:57:24. > :57:26.beyond this, we have big problems of speeding up the planning system
:57:27. > :57:30.which is slowly happening and then the delays between planning consent
:57:31. > :57:34.and building and housing finance and the fact it is all dominated by big
:57:35. > :57:38.developers, who have no incentive whatever to get on with building and
:57:39. > :57:43.there aren't enough small plots. Other countries don't have to do t
:57:44. > :57:46.this DIY, many other countries a lot of homes are one-off which the
:57:47. > :57:52.owners have commissioned themselves from a small builder Precisely. And
:57:53. > :57:55.they have, you know, proper housing - a house that takes longer to
:57:56. > :57:59.build. That's custom build and that's what we think should be
:58:00. > :58:04.happening. It is owner commissioned housing, not DIY. A small proportion
:58:05. > :58:09.to the market, 10%, the big growth proposition is small SME builders
:58:10. > :58:12.and packaged companies that can build off plans and kit, helping
:58:13. > :58:15.people to have their own individual design quickly, it is a whole area
:58:16. > :58:19.of housing that appeals to the market that don't want to buy the
:58:20. > :58:25.new builds of major house builders. Can you built one? I have built my
:58:26. > :58:28.own home. The DIY proportion was small. I left it to the
:58:29. > :58:33.professionals. Most people do. Time to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:34. > :58:36.The question was, "What is Theresa May reported to have banned
:58:37. > :58:42.So, Ken, what is the correct answer?
:58:43. > :58:48.It's Apple watches. Do you have one? No, I have a mobile
:58:49. > :58:51.phone. It is switched off. If anybody wanted to intercept our
:58:52. > :58:57.conversation for the last hour, they should do. So you shouldn't take
:58:58. > :59:02.this into account. I'm in the banning anything from our studio
:59:03. > :59:03.today. That's it. Thank you to Ken Clarke for