:00:38. > :00:42.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.Theresa May enters the 'nest of doves' -
:00:46. > :00:48.and tells EU leaders in Brussels that the UK expects to play a full
:00:49. > :00:58.He says the Lib Dems are the 'come back kids' of British politics,
:00:59. > :01:01.after they take second place in the Witney by-election.
:01:02. > :01:06.The Conservatives held David Cameron's old seat
:01:07. > :01:12.Plaid Cymru hold their autumn party conference in Llangollen.
:01:13. > :01:16.The party's leader - Leanne Wood - joins us live.
:01:17. > :01:19.And Hilary and Donald trade jokes - and insults - at a white-tie
:01:20. > :01:30.This is the first time ever, ever, that Hillary is sitting down
:01:31. > :01:45.and speaking to major corporate leaders and not getting paid for it.
:01:46. > :01:49.The tone of the US election keeps on rising.
:01:50. > :01:53.And with us for the whole of the programme today.
:01:54. > :01:56.The Guardian's deputy political editor Rowena Mason, and Paul Waugh,
:01:57. > :01:57.executive politics editor at the Huffington Post.
:01:58. > :02:04.Now, in the small hours of this morning we got the results
:02:05. > :02:16.There were no upsets - Labour won Batley and Spen,
:02:17. > :02:18.while the Conservatives retained David Cameron's Oxfordshire
:02:19. > :02:20.Our political correspondent, Mark Lobel can bring us
:02:21. > :02:28.Starting with Batley and Spen, this was Jo Cox's old seat, the
:02:29. > :02:34.by-election created by her tragic murder. Tracy Braeburn, a friend of
:02:35. > :02:39.Jo Cox, who was killed last June, and why we are having this
:02:40. > :02:43.by-election, she won A confident of victory, there were some far right
:02:44. > :02:49.parties that stood but none of them retained their deposit. None of them
:02:50. > :02:53.got more than 5% of the vote. In her speech Tracey Bray been said it was
:02:54. > :02:57.a bittersweet moment, it was a tragedy that the by-election had to
:02:58. > :03:01.be held in any place, and Brendan Cox, the husband of the late Jo Cox,
:03:02. > :03:07.he said he was happy that the purveyors of hate, as he regarded
:03:08. > :03:13.the opponents, were defeated commended not return their deposits,
:03:14. > :03:21.there were some heckling in the acceptance speech -- were defeated
:03:22. > :03:25.and did not return their deposits. Labour did contest the Witney
:03:26. > :03:31.by-election, David Cameron's old seat. The Lib Dems through a lot
:03:32. > :03:36.into this and they went from a rather poor fourth in the election,
:03:37. > :03:40.now to second. Conservatives held onto it reads to become to be, what
:03:41. > :03:46.is being said about this result? -- held onto it reasonably comfortably.
:03:47. > :03:50.It was the first test of Theresa May, it was not a great victory,
:03:51. > :03:55.with the loss of 20,000 votes, but for the Liberal Democrats, they are
:03:56. > :04:03.claiming a big victory, going from fourth to second place, from seven
:04:04. > :04:08.to 30% of the vote. Tim Farron suggests in such a constituency with
:04:09. > :04:16.a strong Remain vote, voters were calling to him and to look at
:04:17. > :04:17.keeping the UK in the EU single market, and he was cock-a-hoop
:04:18. > :04:22.whatever the reason. All right. I mean, 19% swing from
:04:23. > :04:26.the Conservatives to the Liberal Democrats is the best result
:04:27. > :04:29.for the Lib Dems in a by-election against the Conservatives
:04:30. > :04:30.for nearly 20 years. And it feels like we
:04:31. > :04:32.are the comeback kids We've fought a great campaign
:04:33. > :04:41.here and lots of people have voted for us because they saw
:04:42. > :04:44.us as fighting for a much better direction for our country,
:04:45. > :04:46.a strong alternative to the Tories, That is why Labour faded
:04:47. > :04:56.and we took second Mark, did they harbour hopes of
:04:57. > :05:02.winning this by-election? Are they contend with a decent second?
:05:03. > :05:06.Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson said the real reason was to
:05:07. > :05:10.embarrass Labour by taking the second place slot, but they threw
:05:11. > :05:15.everything into this, 100 peers came out, Tim Farron visited five times.
:05:16. > :05:22.They were hoping for a close second place. And maybe with the hope of
:05:23. > :05:26.taking the seat, one of these seats which they need to start taking back
:05:27. > :05:30.in order to reverse the terrible losses they suffered last year. It
:05:31. > :05:34.is fair to say this could be seen by some Lib Dems as at least
:05:35. > :05:38.kick-starting their recovery, although as the turnout was under
:05:39. > :05:47.50% we can't take it that serious way. Mark, thanks for joining us. --
:05:48. > :05:53.seriously. Rowena Mason, can you be the comeback kid by coming second?
:05:54. > :05:57.No. LAUGHTER Young if we look at the National
:05:58. > :06:06.polls, the Lib Dems are still down on six, 7%, but it is also the sort
:06:07. > :06:13.of all you would expect for a government in a by-election. --
:06:14. > :06:16.besought of fall. You might expect the official opposition to be the
:06:17. > :06:19.party who would do better in that say, Labour gaining more than the
:06:20. > :06:26.Lib Dems come and it is a huge amount to have gone up -- in that
:06:27. > :06:29.seat. It might give Theresa May a bit of pause for thought, if it is
:06:30. > :06:33.still in the back of her mind that she might call a general election in
:06:34. > :06:38.the next year. There are many seats in the South West that the Tories
:06:39. > :06:42.took off the Lib Dems last time and if there were to be a Lib Dem
:06:43. > :06:45.revival some of those seats could swing back and that could be
:06:46. > :06:52.dangerous to her majority, that will be one of the dangers of her calling
:06:53. > :06:57.a general election. Tim Farron is claiming that this was a vote for
:06:58. > :07:02.staying in the single market. What is the evidence for that? There is
:07:03. > :07:08.no real evidence for this. Is there any evidence? There is some, this
:07:09. > :07:13.was a seat which voted Remain in the referendum and that is what they are
:07:14. > :07:17.trying to extrapolate. It is like the government reading many things
:07:18. > :07:22.into the Brexit vote, because at the party conference they have read in
:07:23. > :07:27.all sorts of stuff about whether it was a vote on migration or written
:07:28. > :07:34.is being left behind globalisation. -- Britain. You can over interpret,
:07:35. > :07:37.but you can't over interpret the Ford in the Labour vote, and Jeremy
:07:38. > :07:47.Corbyn has got to have worries about this -- the fall. What was the fall?
:07:48. > :07:52.They went down a little bit, but they did not much up the
:07:53. > :07:59.disaffection with the Tories. They have reversed to type, 22010, when
:08:00. > :08:03.Labour came third, and don't forget the reason this is worrying for
:08:04. > :08:08.Labour, the Lib Dems surge has been in council by-elections, as well.
:08:09. > :08:13.Not just against the Tories. Labour have lost against the Lib Dems in
:08:14. > :08:16.big swings in Derbyshire, the north-east, and in Sheffield, and
:08:17. > :08:22.that is why Labour MPs are worried. Their own leader says judge us by
:08:23. > :08:29.by-election results and counsel by-election results, but they have
:08:30. > :08:34.not been that good. Would you be mad not to consider this if you were
:08:35. > :08:38.going to call a general election? What will determine what she does is
:08:39. > :08:43.how poorly Labour continues to poll nationally. If it continues on the
:08:44. > :08:48.low level at the moment and if the Tories are above 40%, there was a
:08:49. > :08:55.poll which put them on 47%. Partly because of the collapse of Ukip.
:08:56. > :08:58.Yes, that is what she will be looking at more than anything else,
:08:59. > :09:01.and the big gap between the Tories and Labour. So don't keep your eye
:09:02. > :09:06.on Witney. No. With the renewal of Trident
:09:07. > :09:10.the Royal Navy will get four brandspanking new submarines to play
:09:11. > :09:12.with, and this morning they've So our question for today is,
:09:13. > :09:17.what have they called it? At the end of the show
:09:18. > :09:23.Rowena and Paul will give Theresa May is in Brussels
:09:24. > :09:30.for her first full summit of EU leaders since becoming
:09:31. > :09:31.Prime Minister. Brexit is not officially
:09:32. > :09:35.on the Council agenda - but that hasn't stopped it
:09:36. > :09:38.being talked about. Last night Mrs May insisted that
:09:39. > :09:42.Britain would play a full role in all EU business until the moment
:09:43. > :09:47.we leave, while the president of the EU Council, Donald Tusk,
:09:48. > :09:50.said the other 27 EU member states would not behave like a den of lions
:09:51. > :09:55.- insisting instead that for Theresa May it would be
:09:56. > :09:59.like entering 'a nest of doves'. The PM is due to hold
:10:00. > :10:01.talks with the president of the European Commission -
:10:02. > :10:05.Jean Claude Juncker - later today but arriving
:10:06. > :10:07.at the summit, Mr Juncker seemed exasperated by
:10:08. > :10:18.questions about Theresa May. How did the evening
:10:19. > :10:23.go with Theresa May? We had no special event with
:10:24. > :10:30.Theresa May yesterday. She was explaining
:10:31. > :10:32.what her intentions were. I will have lunch with her, and then
:10:33. > :10:36.we will see what has to happen. What do you plan to say
:10:37. > :10:38.to her over lunch? Yeah, yeah.
:10:39. > :10:46.But that makes a difference. Let's get the latest
:10:47. > :10:48.from Brussels, and speak to our Europe Correspondent
:10:49. > :10:54.Damian Grammaticas. We understand Theresa May is about
:10:55. > :11:00.to give a press conference, and if we have a clip of that we will run
:11:01. > :11:04.it. Coming on to the more important issues, but first, is anything
:11:05. > :11:10.regarding Brexit really happening over there? To be honest, not much.
:11:11. > :11:15.LAUGHTER The Gaelic rosemary which
:11:16. > :11:25.Jean-Claude Juncker gave today was precisely because of that --
:11:26. > :11:29.Rasberry. He kept being asked about Brexit and his answer was, not much,
:11:30. > :11:34.because not much is happening until the Article 50 native occasional
:11:35. > :11:38.letter arrives in this building, and he knew very well that last night
:11:39. > :11:45.Theresa May's intervention was only five minutes long after coffee when
:11:46. > :11:51.she explained about the timetable for Brexit. It is overshadowed by
:11:52. > :11:56.the bigger issues of Russia and until the UK triggers it there won't
:11:57. > :12:01.be negotiations. He will have lunch with her today, he was asked how he
:12:02. > :12:06.found her, famously having said he might find difficult, he said he
:12:07. > :12:11.found her charming. There you go. He's back in diplomatic mode. And
:12:12. > :12:18.now to the bigger issue, the more immediate issue, the British,
:12:19. > :12:21.Germans and the French want to take a tougher line regarding sanctions
:12:22. > :12:26.against the Russians because of what is happening in Syria. And
:12:27. > :12:33.elsewhere. As I understand it it was effectively blocked by the Italian
:12:34. > :12:39.Prime Minister. How serious is that? It is quite serious. To be honest,
:12:40. > :12:43.from my understanding it is not just the Italians, the Austrians have a
:12:44. > :12:48.significant part in this, as well. Both of those countries have quite
:12:49. > :12:57.significant business trading relationships with Russia. Both also
:12:58. > :13:03.have issues politically, they want to exert themselves a bit inside the
:13:04. > :13:06.EU and they don't want Germany and France dominating things, so there
:13:07. > :13:11.is a bit of that going on in the background, up it is significant, at
:13:12. > :13:16.this moment in time when Europeans are looking at what is happening in
:13:17. > :13:20.Syria, what is happening in Aleppo, and what has been happening in
:13:21. > :13:25.Ukraine, trying to find a unified approach and still struggling to
:13:26. > :13:30.find that language which they wanted to toughen up. Some of the leaders
:13:31. > :13:38.want to get tougher and they wanted the mention of sanctions, but that
:13:39. > :13:41.was toned down. Wallonia, I don't often say that on The Daily
:13:42. > :13:48.Politics, but the Socialist leader of Wallonia has been holding up, he
:13:49. > :13:55.is the stop out on the EU site, the free trade deal with Canada -- side.
:13:56. > :14:00.He has been invited to join them, Wallonia being one of the regions
:14:01. > :14:03.part of the Belgian federal structure, is he under a lot of
:14:04. > :14:10.pressure? Is he about to break on this? Will the deal now be done?
:14:11. > :14:14.Yes, he is under an enormous amount of pressure, and I don't think he
:14:15. > :14:18.has been invited here but he has been locked in meetings with the
:14:19. > :14:21.European Commission and the Belgian federal government because they need
:14:22. > :14:25.his say-so to sign that deal to give the whole of the EU, 500 million
:14:26. > :14:34.people, the go-ahead to sign that trade deal with Canada. Is he about
:14:35. > :14:36.to cave? My sense is no. We are in Wallonia this week talking to
:14:37. > :14:42.members of his Socialist party and they were very clear, although they
:14:43. > :14:47.represent a small regional area, 3.5 million French bakers in the south
:14:48. > :14:52.of Belgian, their view, they do not like this trade deal -- French
:14:53. > :14:58.speakers for the day think it could undermine workers' rights and the
:14:59. > :15:02.rights of citizens in European countries, consumer rights, in
:15:03. > :15:06.favour of multinationals and big businesses, and they also do not
:15:07. > :15:11.like what they see as the protections given to multinationals.
:15:12. > :15:17.A court dispute system which would sit outside European courts. They
:15:18. > :15:20.want that element of it changed. Canada's Trade Minister has been
:15:21. > :15:26.here locked in talks with Wallonia, it sounds incredible, when you think
:15:27. > :15:29.about it. But they are sitting there today, their parliament has been
:15:30. > :15:33.meeting, saying they are not signing until they are satisfied, and they
:15:34. > :15:38.feel they are in the vanguard of an anti-trade feeding that is growing
:15:39. > :15:46.worldwide and that is why they are doing so -- feeling. The Socialists
:15:47. > :15:48.in Wallonia and the centre right here in Brussels, there are
:15:49. > :15:54.differences, but they are pressing on. Theresa May is giving her press
:15:55. > :15:58.conference now and if we have a clip we will run it.
:15:59. > :16:00.We've been joined by the acting director of the
:16:01. > :16:02.think-tank Open Europe, Stephen Booth.
:16:03. > :16:09.Before I come onto Brexit, let's not be too myopic, let's come onto the
:16:10. > :16:15.other things I was talking to Damian Grammaticus about. As Russia is
:16:16. > :16:19.increasingly being accused of war crimes in Syria and being on
:16:20. > :16:26.manoeuvres elsewhere, the Europeans are unable to come to a common
:16:27. > :16:31.position to turn up the sanctions screw. The EU has negotiated a
:16:32. > :16:36.free-trade deal with Canada, democratic, progressive, civilised
:16:37. > :16:42.nation and 3 million people look like they might be able to stop it.
:16:43. > :16:47.Aren't both these things signs of a certain dysfunction in the European
:16:48. > :16:51.Union? Yes, I think that's a fair comment. On both those issues,
:16:52. > :16:55.Russia, I think, that is where Theresa May wanted to go there with
:16:56. > :16:58.a constructive attitude and say we can help you with some of these
:16:59. > :17:04.things. And the French and Germans were on the same side. And within
:17:05. > :17:07.the European Union, and afterwards, it is an important message we can
:17:08. > :17:11.send when we come to Brexit but on the trade side of things, it is of
:17:12. > :17:14.some concern, because the UK may be in the same position as Canada,
:17:15. > :17:19.seeking that trade agreement with the rest of the EU and this anti
:17:20. > :17:24.trade globalisation is difficult to do these kind of deals. We know that
:17:25. > :17:29.if we attempt to do a free-trade deal to replace our membership of
:17:30. > :17:33.the single market, why do we think that in that case, Wallonia or
:17:34. > :17:38.anybody else would be in the same position? This is to do a free-trade
:17:39. > :17:42.deal that is opening out trade between the EU and Canada.
:17:43. > :17:47.Allerdale, no matter how good it is, would not be as open as being in the
:17:48. > :17:52.single market -- our deal. So Wallonia may not have a say. That
:17:53. > :17:57.political argument doesn't stand up for the reasons you say, this is not
:17:58. > :18:01.about new, opening up... If anything, we might talk about a
:18:02. > :18:04.trade barrier between the UK and the EU, so the argument doesn't stand
:18:05. > :18:09.up. Brett procedurally, it may need to go through the same process. But
:18:10. > :18:15.back the lead but we don't know that but does it also suggest that these
:18:16. > :18:18.multilateral trade deals are in real trouble because of anti trade
:18:19. > :18:22.globalisation forces and Wallonia would not be an issue if Britain and
:18:23. > :18:31.Canada were to do a free-trade deal? Yes, exactly and I think that is
:18:32. > :18:36.something that would vindicate the decision to leave the EU, it is not
:18:37. > :18:39.the sort of thing we would try and face making lateral deals with the
:18:40. > :18:44.likes of Canada but multilateral deals within the WTO, is it
:18:45. > :18:49.something we can build allies for, greater free-trade? The likes of
:18:50. > :18:51.Australia, Canada, perhaps the US, depending on what happens, might see
:18:52. > :18:56.us as useful allies in that endeavour. The meetings that are
:18:57. > :19:00.going on at the moment, and will continue until we trigger Article
:19:01. > :19:05.50, they are just Shadow dancing at the moment, aren't they? Posturing.
:19:06. > :19:09.Yes, but what I think the UK needs to do is shift the terms of the
:19:10. > :19:12.debate. We are having this Shadow dance but it is all around this very
:19:13. > :19:16.detailed discussion of how much trade can we get to control
:19:17. > :19:19.immigration? No one is thinking strategically about what kind of
:19:20. > :19:23.relationship we want between the UK and the EU on both sides. Trade is a
:19:24. > :19:29.fundamental element but it is not the only element. The UK is
:19:30. > :19:32.important to the EU's internal and external security, the issues about
:19:33. > :19:38.Russia, which is something the UK would want to be engaged in and the
:19:39. > :19:42.EU should want UK engagement in it. So before we get to the nitty-gritty
:19:43. > :19:47.negotiation, we need to explain how we see the EU as a valuable
:19:48. > :19:50.geopolitical partner. Some of these issues will be naughty and difficult
:19:51. > :19:57.but if you set them in the context... Of the broader
:19:58. > :20:04.geopolitical context. And do we want to create a trade war in the context
:20:05. > :20:10.of where we are dependent on each other with these issues? We find it
:20:11. > :20:13.hard to get to grips with the British Government's bargaining
:20:14. > :20:17.position, they do not yet know, they'll still grappling towards it,
:20:18. > :20:21.but we are even more in the dark, other than the posturing from
:20:22. > :20:25.Francois Hollande or Jean-Claude Juncker, we are even more in the
:20:26. > :20:29.dark as to what the EU's bargaining position is going to be, aren't we?
:20:30. > :20:32.Yes, and that is partly because there is a high degree of
:20:33. > :20:36.self-preservation in the sense that a lot of these people face their own
:20:37. > :20:40.elections, so they can't be seen to give anything to the British, but I
:20:41. > :20:44.think more importantly and the point I alluded to earlier, no one is
:20:45. > :20:47.thinking in strategic terms and we can't expect Jean-Claude Juncker
:20:48. > :20:51.Donald Tusk to think about that, because they deal with the EU. What
:20:52. > :20:55.we are talking about now is a broader issue of how we manage
:20:56. > :21:00.European affairs between the EU and the UK and other nations. That is a
:21:01. > :21:05.fair point, if you narrow it down to trade, you get the beating of
:21:06. > :21:09.breasts and the rattling, but if you place the negotiations in the
:21:10. > :21:13.context of Britain being the biggest military power in Europe, being a
:21:14. > :21:16.key part in security and intelligence and having a major
:21:17. > :21:22.geopolitical role to play in Europe, in or out of the EU, you may then
:21:23. > :21:25.get a different result. That is why you had to go back to what David
:21:26. > :21:29.Cameron was trying to argue in his negotiating with the rest of Europe.
:21:30. > :21:33.He was saying let's recognise that Britain plays all of these other
:21:34. > :21:37.roles, it is not just about trade, it is the global role in Nato,
:21:38. > :21:42.internal intelligence, all that kind of stuff. But crucially, Cameron
:21:43. > :21:46.could persuade the rest of the EU to water down freedom of movement in
:21:47. > :21:51.any way and we can't get away from that. You are right, Andrew, do the
:21:52. > :21:56.EU in any way want to negotiate or just play hardball? Even though
:21:57. > :22:00.Chuka Umunna, sitting in that seat last night, tried to argue that the
:22:01. > :22:08.Europeans were coming around to a different view of freedom of
:22:09. > :22:12.movement. But as they say... I'm not sure that Angela Merkel when it
:22:13. > :22:15.comes to that, given that she was brought up behind the Iron Curtain
:22:16. > :22:22.and so on, it is important to... Are we aware of just how divided the
:22:23. > :22:25.British Government is on this? I mean, when I first heard some of the
:22:26. > :22:29.stories, I thought it was exaggerated. But the more I have
:22:30. > :22:37.looked into it, there are huge divisions, but particularly through
:22:38. > :22:40.the three Brexiteer is and Philip Hammond in the Treasury and now
:22:41. > :22:43.between Mr Hammond and Theresa May and ten Downing Street. They have a
:22:44. > :22:48.lot of work to do to get a united front, I would suggest. I think you
:22:49. > :22:51.are absolutely right, there are some serious divisions between members of
:22:52. > :22:55.the Cabinet and one consequence of Theresa May saying let's have some
:22:56. > :23:03.of these discussions as a Cabinet group, rather than taking them as,
:23:04. > :23:06.as previous governments might have done, behind closed doors at Downing
:23:07. > :23:11.Street, we are seeing some of the tensions come out into the Open.
:23:12. > :23:19.There have been briefings and leaks. They come and speak to you! Exactly,
:23:20. > :23:24.it is quite beneficial from that point of view. There are definitely
:23:25. > :23:27.issues over the immigration and different systems that might be used
:23:28. > :23:32.to bring down immigration. There is a point of tension over whether you
:23:33. > :23:36.include students in the immigration or not. Which Mr Hammond seems to
:23:37. > :23:41.have been slapped down on. He seemed to be hinting that the public didn't
:23:42. > :23:45.consider foreign students necessarily as migrants. And Number
:23:46. > :23:48.Ten has categorically ruled out budging on that. Then there is the
:23:49. > :23:51.issue of the single market. We don't quite know when Number Ten itself
:23:52. > :23:57.stands but Philip Hammond seems to be leading the charge as the person
:23:58. > :24:00.saying we need as full as possible access to the single market. The
:24:01. > :24:06.three Brexiteers have a different viewpoint on that. When Article 50
:24:07. > :24:11.is triggered, before the end of March, the Prime Minister tells us
:24:12. > :24:15.when it is done, if it is not done at the time, surely in the immediate
:24:16. > :24:18.aftermath, the Government will come under huge pressure to give a
:24:19. > :24:23.general idea of what its negotiating position is, not to be detailed, not
:24:24. > :24:29.to give away its tactics, but surely it has two layout "This is broadly
:24:30. > :24:34.what we are going to demand in the negotiations". Yes, I agree and I am
:24:35. > :24:37.not of the view that it necessarily hinders its progress in the EU,
:24:38. > :24:42.because we have to set some parameters, what is the EU talking
:24:43. > :24:49.about? We have said we are taking a political decision to have political
:24:50. > :24:56.autonomy from the EU that governs the trade and the UK will want an
:24:57. > :24:59.individual policy. Are we going to do it so closely that we give up the
:25:00. > :25:02.freedom we have voted for question what the Government will set of
:25:03. > :25:07.parameters but there are still shades of grey we can negotiate. But
:25:08. > :25:11.without the parameters, Theresa May is going to find it increasingly
:25:12. > :25:15.difficult to manage the domestic politics, because it is clear that
:25:16. > :25:18.the vote will have consequences for the relationship and setting at
:25:19. > :25:22.those early on will let businesses and the public know where they
:25:23. > :25:29.stand. Wood in July to be a fly on the wall -- wouldn't July to be a
:25:30. > :25:31.fly on the wall with Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker?
:25:32. > :25:33.Now, if you were watching the Daily Politics on Wednesday,
:25:34. > :25:35.you may remember this exchange during PMQs.
:25:36. > :25:37.Some of my constituents who have had their tax credits suddenly
:25:38. > :25:40.stopped by Concentrix have been accused of being in a relationship
:25:41. > :25:42.with the previous tenants of their homes who they have
:25:43. > :25:47.And in some cases they have been accused of being in a relationship
:25:48. > :25:50.with members of their own family and told to prove that they are not.
:25:51. > :25:52.This Kafkaesque situation is causing deep distress and hardship amongst
:25:53. > :25:58.Is this what the Prime Minister means by being on the side
:25:59. > :26:05.And what is she going to do to put it right?
:26:06. > :26:08.The right honourable lady raises an issue which is of concern
:26:09. > :26:13.Making sure that those who are being assessed
:26:14. > :26:16.are being assessed properly and the decisions, the right
:26:17. > :26:22.The Department for Work and Pensions is looking at that whole process
:26:23. > :26:25.of what should be done and how those assessments should
:26:26. > :26:36.The Prime Minister replying to Maria Eagle.
:26:37. > :26:40.Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs contracted the US company Concentrix
:26:41. > :26:44.to look for fraudulent or incorrect tax credit claims back in 2014.
:26:45. > :26:52.The contract, worth up to ?75 million over 3 years,
:26:53. > :26:54.was meant to save the Government ?1 billion in tax
:26:55. > :27:00.The company cross checks public records such as council tax,
:27:01. > :27:02.the electoral register and postal records against tax credit claims
:27:03. > :27:10.HMRC say Concentrix has identified ?280 million of fraud
:27:11. > :27:15.But MPs have been inundated with requests for help
:27:16. > :27:23.by constituents who have had their tax credits taken away.
:27:24. > :27:25.When claimants tried to challenge the decisions, many found it
:27:26. > :27:28.impossible to contact Concentrix - HMRC say that only 10% of calls
:27:29. > :27:37.On 14th September, HMRC announced they would not extend the Concentrix
:27:38. > :27:48.181,000 cases were handed back to HMRC who say they have now dealt
:27:49. > :27:56.Giving evidence to the Work and Pensions Select Committee
:27:57. > :28:00.earlier this month, HMRC said that there have been 15,000 appeals
:28:01. > :28:06.90-95% of appeals have been successful in overturning
:28:07. > :28:16.Maria Eagle joins us now from Liverpool.
:28:17. > :28:19.And I should mention that we did ask the Treasury and HMRC
:28:20. > :28:29.for an interview with someone responsible, but they declined.
:28:30. > :28:38.Let's go to Maria Eagle. Are you relieved, gratified, even, that HMRC
:28:39. > :28:45.is now back in charge of this? Well, I am not sure all of this mess is
:28:46. > :28:50.Concentrix's fault, it is the fault of HMRC as well. It is they that
:28:51. > :28:56.passed over this 1.5 million pieces of information. And the quality of
:28:57. > :29:00.some of it seems to be so poor. And, you know, HMRC say in their charter
:29:01. > :29:07.that the people that deal with them have a right to be believed. The
:29:08. > :29:10.upper tier tribunal says in law that it must be HMRC that proves there is
:29:11. > :29:14.a problem. Yet what has happened to my constituents is that they don't
:29:15. > :29:19.get paid, they then get a letter that says they have an undeclared
:29:20. > :29:23.partner, but the letter doesn't say who it is supposed to be. They then
:29:24. > :29:28.have to prove that they don't Allsup this is a complete mess that is the
:29:29. > :29:34.making of both HMRC and Concentrix. Some of the cases that I have have
:29:35. > :29:38.been dealt with HMRC after the cases have gone back to them. And so I am
:29:39. > :29:46.not convinced that this is entirely content chicks -- Concentrix. But
:29:47. > :29:49.the reality is that my constituents, who are vulnerable financially, they
:29:50. > :29:55.are young mums with very little spare cash, are being forced to
:29:56. > :29:58.stand to the pressure of this and it is completely outrageous. I want to
:29:59. > :30:01.come back to the human cost of this in a moment and just hear some of
:30:02. > :30:08.the problems of your constituents, but before I do, can I just get it
:30:09. > :30:11.clear that although Concentrix clearly has made mistakes, otherwise
:30:12. > :30:14.they wouldn't be losing so many appeals, and obviously haven't
:30:15. > :30:19.handled this well or they wouldn't be losing the contract, but HMRC are
:30:20. > :30:23.guilty as well because it was their job to monitor, regulate and enforce
:30:24. > :30:26.what Concentrix was doing. Is that your case?
:30:27. > :30:35.That is true, and HMRC, this contract which passes over on a
:30:36. > :30:38.payment by payment result spaces, you only get paid if you save money
:30:39. > :30:46.and if you stop claims, in other words. -- basis. You hand over the
:30:47. > :30:49.power to Mali to make decisions and to do the mandatory considerations
:30:50. > :30:55.of those decisions -- you hand over the power to Concentrix to make
:30:56. > :31:00.decisions. They have not thought about the effect on very vulnerable
:31:01. > :31:04.young mothers. These are young mothers who are working part-time
:31:05. > :31:09.and don't have much spare cash in my constituency. The trend as you are
:31:10. > :31:15.picking up from your constituents, and my right in thinking that one of
:31:16. > :31:20.the things they are doing, if you are on tax credits, they tried to
:31:21. > :31:23.check if you were cohabiting with someone and whether or not there is
:31:24. > :31:27.a partner in the house and if they are established that, to their
:31:28. > :31:35.satisfaction, they then just stopped the tax credit? That is what has
:31:36. > :31:38.been happening? Yes, the first thing that people knew about it, they said
:31:39. > :31:42.we didn't get paid, and then they tried to get through on the phone
:31:43. > :31:45.and can get through and then they would get a letter saying they had
:31:46. > :31:50.an undeclared partner, but it didn't say who the partner was supposed to
:31:51. > :31:53.be. Then when you have got to the bottom of it, the allegation is it
:31:54. > :31:59.was someone who lived in the same house for- five years previously
:32:00. > :32:05.after that the same sex, by the way, and my constituent never even knew
:32:06. > :32:08.this person. One of your constituents was having an affair
:32:09. > :32:15.with Joseph Rowntree who died in 1925? ! That was a case in
:32:16. > :32:21.Birmingham, but Joseph Rowntree is a 19th-century Quaker. I got that bit.
:32:22. > :32:25.LAUGHTER How on earth is a person supposed to
:32:26. > :32:28.work out that that is the person they are supposed to be cohabiting
:32:29. > :32:33.with in order to prove that it isn't, that they are not, it is
:32:34. > :32:40.ridiculous. Clearly mistakes have been made, big mistakes, at human
:32:41. > :32:43.cost. Especially if you cut someone's tax credit and you don't
:32:44. > :32:48.even tell them. And then they can't find out why. Do you accept there
:32:49. > :32:55.was fraud and error going on, though? They identified ?218 million
:32:56. > :33:02.of fraud and error and HMRC have validated that that bit was right.
:33:03. > :33:06.We all want tax credits to be paid in the proper amount to the right
:33:07. > :33:12.people and nobody will defend fraud or error. I suspect there is far
:33:13. > :33:18.more error than fraud. I've had cases where HMRC have accepted they
:33:19. > :33:21.have got the address wrong and as a consequence people have had money
:33:22. > :33:25.stopped and I have had to borrow money and then have been offered ?5
:33:26. > :33:31.a week of the moneyback -- they have had to borrow money. It takes weeks
:33:32. > :33:34.for them to get the moneyback they were entitled to through no sense of
:33:35. > :33:39.their own -- through no-fault of their own. This is not a sensible
:33:40. > :33:47.way of administrating tax credits. Given this has caused pain to
:33:48. > :33:52.members of society who are already struggling to make ends meet, that
:33:53. > :33:59.is why they are getting tax credits, so what we do next? Do we leave it
:34:00. > :34:05.as this now it has gone back to her HMRC? Hasn't there got to be some
:34:06. > :34:09.culpability for this? I think so, we need to know more about why this has
:34:10. > :34:14.gone wrong and we have seen buckpassing between HMRC and
:34:15. > :34:18.Concentrix, the contract treated like a hot potato, and I think the
:34:19. > :34:25.Parliamentary review is a good thing. What has been forgotten by
:34:26. > :34:28.HMRC and Concentrix is the vulnerable nature of the individuals
:34:29. > :34:33.who are entitled to this money, there has been a breach of the
:34:34. > :34:37.HMRC's own charter and people are being left to try and manage and
:34:38. > :34:41.I've had to hand out food, bank fractures, people have gone into
:34:42. > :34:48.debt. There have been ongoing issues for people who have got into arrears
:34:49. > :34:50.with their rent and I've got constituents who are being
:34:51. > :34:54.threatened with eviction, this is not acceptable as a way of making
:34:55. > :34:59.savings, making sure that fraud and error is reduced. Something needs to
:35:00. > :35:04.be done about this. The bomber ability of these individuals has to
:35:05. > :35:09.be acknowledged -- the vulnerability. They can't be made
:35:10. > :35:21.scapegoats for this nonsense and this buckpassing between HMRC and
:35:22. > :35:25.Concentrix. Thanks for joining us. Paul, it has not been a great week
:35:26. > :35:31.the government, Maria Eagle brought this up in PMQs and this is the kind
:35:32. > :35:36.of thing which goes on under the radar until it is brought up. The
:35:37. > :35:40.Home Office has got into a mess over what child migrants are and what
:35:41. > :35:46.aren't and they did not seem to be able to tell the difference. Not a
:35:47. > :35:51.great week for government competence. This is a huge
:35:52. > :35:54.bureaucracy at work and sometimes the consequences of the way the
:35:55. > :35:58.state interacts with individuals, it is messy and often incompetent,
:35:59. > :36:03.let's be honest, there's a large degree of public service is with
:36:04. > :36:06.this going on. But the political problem for Theresa May is that she
:36:07. > :36:08.is opposed to be a new kind of government on the side of the
:36:09. > :36:15.striving classes, the just coping classes. These are the people being
:36:16. > :36:18.affected by this kind of thing, and that is why people like Damian Green
:36:19. > :36:23.say, let's have a look at this again. He has made jobless contract
:36:24. > :36:26.has ended early, as well as her HMRC, and his idea of reviewing the
:36:27. > :36:35.way benefits are recessed the disabled -- he has made this
:36:36. > :36:39.contract and early. -- end early. I bring you in as an outside company
:36:40. > :36:46.to look at the tax credits situation and you get a free, but then I say
:36:47. > :36:49.you will get more if you can find people who are cheating and does
:36:50. > :37:01.that give you a perverse incentive to do that? -- fee. It is a perverse
:37:02. > :37:04.incentive, and it would encourage any company to not give as much
:37:05. > :37:09.leeway as they might have done on some cases. Remarkable they did not
:37:10. > :37:15.tell people before they withdrew their tax credits, isn't that a
:37:16. > :37:18.breach of proper government, maybe even human rights, that is just
:37:19. > :37:23.wrong. It will have to be investigated. To add to what Paul
:37:24. > :37:28.was saying, Theresa May has allowed herself to be painted as a safe pair
:37:29. > :37:34.of hands and if you have more of these scandals of confidence in
:37:35. > :37:41.government... The Goddard inquiry. It won't play with at well for her.
:37:42. > :37:44.-- it won't play out well for her. We have got to move on.
:37:45. > :37:45.You may have thought the autumn political
:37:46. > :37:47.conference season was over - but you'd be wrong.
:37:48. > :37:49.Plaid Cymru are holding their conference this weekend
:37:50. > :37:51.in the north-east Welsh town of Llangollen.
:37:52. > :37:53.The party has 11 members of the Welsh Assembly
:37:54. > :37:55.and is considering a formal coalition with the minority
:37:56. > :38:03.The party's leader Leanne Wood is there and joins us now.
:38:04. > :38:11.Welcome back to The Daily Politics. One of the big issues is the
:38:12. > :38:16.direction of your party, there seems to be confusion, maybe there isn't,
:38:17. > :38:19.you can put it right, are you considering a formal coalition with
:38:20. > :38:27.the Labour government in the Welsh assembly? There seems to be at
:38:28. > :38:30.session about whether or not Plaid Cymru would like to go into
:38:31. > :38:34.coalition or not, what we have always said is that Wales's best
:38:35. > :38:40.interests are at the top of our agenda and at the moment being in
:38:41. > :38:46.opposition is working very well for us. Just this week we announced a
:38:47. > :38:53.deal with the Welsh government in order to enable their budget to pass
:38:54. > :39:01.where they alligator ?290 million towards some joint priorities --
:39:02. > :39:04.where they allocated. And ?190 million to Plaid Cymru's election
:39:05. > :39:10.priorities for the this week we get to implement our manifesto and we
:39:11. > :39:13.also get to hold the government to account and that is crucial,
:39:14. > :39:21.especially as we move towards the triggering of Article 50. The Welsh
:39:22. > :39:26.voice needs to be articulated. To make sure the Welsh government is
:39:27. > :39:33.doing a proper job of that. Are you considering a formal coalition with
:39:34. > :39:39.Labour or not? No, we're not. You told the BBC earlier this week that
:39:40. > :39:46.you work actively considering a coalition? -- you were. Andrew, the
:39:47. > :39:50.BBC ask me every month if I'm considering a coalition with Labour
:39:51. > :39:53.and the answer is always the same. I'm not prepared to rule it out
:39:54. > :39:58.because it might come to the point where it is in Wales's best
:39:59. > :40:02.interests to have Plaid Cymru in government in order to shape the
:40:03. > :40:06.government's response to Brexit because they not doing a very good
:40:07. > :40:11.job of that at the moment. It is our view that a soft Brexit would be in
:40:12. > :40:15.Wales's best interest but the Labour government have recently voted with
:40:16. > :40:20.Tories and the Ukip in the assembly for a hard Brexit approach, and we
:40:21. > :40:24.are saying that we need to be a member of the single market to
:40:25. > :40:31.protect the 200,000 jobs that are in Wales and rely on membership of the
:40:32. > :40:34.single market. There needs to be an alternative voice put in the
:40:35. > :40:37.National Assembly because otherwise the opposition will just come from
:40:38. > :40:43.the right and that will be no good for Welsh people either. Keeping
:40:44. > :40:49.your options open, which is what you have just told me now, that is not
:40:50. > :40:54.the same as actively considering a coalition as you told the BBC
:40:55. > :41:01.earlier this week? It is a debate we are having all the time, because we
:41:02. > :41:04.are constantly considering what our best interests are, Wales's best
:41:05. > :41:07.interests, and some people think the best interests are to be in
:41:08. > :41:12.government and others think the opposite. It is an ongoing debate,
:41:13. > :41:16.there is an active consideration, we are not wanting or seeking a
:41:17. > :41:20.coalition, but we want to keep the option open just in case it comes to
:41:21. > :41:26.the point where it is in Wales's best interests to do that. Wales
:41:27. > :41:33.voted to leave the European Union and everybody, the top people in the
:41:34. > :41:36.Remain campaign and Leave campaign made it clear that leaving the
:41:37. > :41:40.European Union means leaving the single market in terms of membership
:41:41. > :41:46.of the single market, so why are you defying the will of the Welsh
:41:47. > :41:49.people? I don't recall the question about the single market being on the
:41:50. > :41:56.ballot paper and I don't recall the question about hard or soft Brexit
:41:57. > :41:59.or even immigration. No, but leaders on both sides made it clear that the
:42:00. > :42:05.vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market, are you disputing
:42:06. > :42:11.that? As I understood it the vote was to leave the European Union and
:42:12. > :42:17.we will leave. The question is how and what the arrangements are. Let
:42:18. > :42:21.me run you this clip of the leaders of both Leave and Remain and what
:42:22. > :42:29.they said about the single market and leaving the EU.
:42:30. > :42:32.The British public would be voting, if we leave, to leave the EU
:42:33. > :42:35.Should we come out of the single market?
:42:36. > :42:38.I think that that is almost certainly, that would
:42:39. > :42:42.Do you want us to stay inside the single market, yes or no?
:42:43. > :42:44.We should be outside the single market.
:42:45. > :42:47.I had Michael Gove in that chair and I said, after Brexit,
:42:48. > :42:50.will we be in the European single market, yes or no?
:42:51. > :42:54.So we won't be in the European single market?
:42:55. > :42:57.We would be out of the single market.
:42:58. > :43:00.Britain would be quitting, quitting the single market.
:43:01. > :43:08.There we have it, David Cameron, George Osborne, Andrea Leadsom,
:43:09. > :43:11.Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, what did you not understand about that?
:43:12. > :43:18.If you vote to leave you will be outside the single market. Those are
:43:19. > :43:22.Tories and the Tories have never Michel a mandate to speak on behalf
:43:23. > :43:27.of the people in Wales. -- have never won a mandate. They said a
:43:28. > :43:31.vote to leave means leaving the single market. They can say what
:43:32. > :43:35.they like, that was not on the ballot paper. The Tories said a lot
:43:36. > :43:39.in the referendum campaign that I would want to distance myself from.
:43:40. > :43:50.I think that leadership of the Remain campaign by tossed -- Tories
:43:51. > :43:53.is what lost us the referendum. You trying to tell me that the Welsh
:43:54. > :43:56.people did not know what they were voting for when they voted to leave,
:43:57. > :44:02.that they were also voting to leave the single market? When the leaders
:44:03. > :44:06.of the Leave and Remain campaigns were explicit in saying that if you
:44:07. > :44:15.vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave the single market. The Welsh
:44:16. > :44:22.people understood that. Look, the Leave campaign said ?350 million a
:44:23. > :44:27.week would be made available to the NHS and that was a lie, as well. My
:44:28. > :44:32.contention now is that there are 200,000 jobs in Wales which rely
:44:33. > :44:35.upon us being a member of the single market and I intend to advocate the
:44:36. > :44:39.best interests of Wales and that is what we think is in the best
:44:40. > :44:43.interests of Wales at this point in time, and I'm not going to stop
:44:44. > :44:50.advocating that. Why is it in the best interests of Wales, that in
:44:51. > :44:55.?190 million allocated to your priorities, out of a ?15 billion
:44:56. > :44:59.budget, so you did not get that much for your priorities, your priorities
:45:00. > :45:05.were to give only ?1 million to support end of life care but ?5
:45:06. > :45:06.million to the Welsh national language agency, is that the
:45:07. > :45:20.priorities of Plaid Cymru? Well, we will vote for ?1 million
:45:21. > :45:28.towards end of life care in addition to what is there already. You can
:45:29. > :45:33.always attack spending on the Welsh language and arts and music and all
:45:34. > :45:37.those things that are in our front line public services, but I happen
:45:38. > :45:42.to think culture is important. Five times more important than end of
:45:43. > :45:48.life care? No, that is not what I'm at all. The money for the end of
:45:49. > :45:52.life care is in addition to what is being spent already. The ?5 billion
:45:53. > :45:57.for the Welsh language agency, there is no money being spent on that at
:45:58. > :46:01.the moment -- ?5 million. There is money spent on the Welsh language at
:46:02. > :46:04.the moment, this is just going into a quango. There has always been a
:46:05. > :46:09.lot of money spent on the Welsh language. Well most money is spent
:46:10. > :46:13.on the English language, of course. We are talking about a very small
:46:14. > :46:17.amount for the Welsh language and if you were talking equality, we would
:46:18. > :46:22.be spending around ?7 billion on the Welsh language, so we are not
:46:23. > :46:28.anywhere near equal. ?7 billion question mark will that be in your
:46:29. > :46:33.next manifesto? That is about half of the budget. No, not in the next
:46:34. > :46:36.manifesto, of course! We have won a significant amount of games out of
:46:37. > :46:42.this budget deal, it is a budget deal I am very proud of, the biggest
:46:43. > :46:45.ever agree by an opposition party since the beginning of devolution
:46:46. > :46:48.and it is something we stand very pleased with and we are going to
:46:49. > :46:49.shout about it. You have just done that, thank you very much the
:46:50. > :46:51.joining us. Now it's one of the most frustrating
:46:52. > :46:54.things to hear when you're driving. But seeing as more than half
:46:55. > :46:58.of us use a sat nav now, rather than a map, it's one plenty
:46:59. > :47:01.of us will have heard. Well, a Government-backed project
:47:02. > :47:03.could change all that. all-sat-naving map that's been
:47:04. > :47:07.made of all British roads. Our Ellie has gone for
:47:08. > :47:26.a spin to find out more. Turnaround when possible...
:47:27. > :47:29.# Whereon around the village road to nowhere --
:47:30. > :47:35.# We're on a road to nowhere # Come on inside... OK, so I know
:47:36. > :47:38.I'm not the only person who get really frustrated with Sapnas, but
:47:39. > :47:43.hope Mac though it helpfully, the Government has gone badly put some
:47:44. > :47:50.money in to help things run more smoothly. They paid ordnance survey
:47:51. > :47:56.?3 million to make the ultimate Battle of Britain's 200,000 plus
:47:57. > :47:59.miles of Rome. -- Road. We have benefited from height restrictions
:48:00. > :48:05.and with restrictions, which we can use to tell such love riders that it
:48:06. > :48:12.may not have restrictions but it is not suitable for your vehicle. -- to
:48:13. > :48:16.tell SAP nav riders. That might have been useful to these riders, who
:48:17. > :48:24.opted to take big lorries down the small roads and under low bridges.
:48:25. > :48:27.The data that has been collected will be made available for sat nav
:48:28. > :48:32.manufacturers, so they will have to pay for it. And seeing as it is
:48:33. > :48:36.truck drivers that can to get blamed for when sat navs go wrong, they are
:48:37. > :48:42.cautiously welcoming this new development. We have been supplying
:48:43. > :48:46.sat navs the many years and the crucial thing this gives us is one
:48:47. > :48:49.single source of data. That is great but the really important thing is
:48:50. > :48:53.that the funding needs to continue so it is kept up-to-date and truck
:48:54. > :49:00.drivers have the very latest information in their systems to be
:49:01. > :49:03.able to use, because things changed. -- change. And it will be up to
:49:04. > :49:11.councils to keep the information up to date. Of course, there is one
:49:12. > :49:14.other way of making the whole sat nav thing a little bit more
:49:15. > :49:25.enjoyable. Let's change the sound, shall we?
:49:26. > :49:31.ANDREW NEIL'S VOICE: It is clear we are not making any progress here, so
:49:32. > :49:38.let's move onto the next destination. Ellie Price, I am
:49:39. > :49:40.always giving her directions. And we've been joined
:49:41. > :49:42.from Tunbridge Wells the deputy chairman
:49:43. > :49:50.of the Local Government Association. It represents all local governments
:49:51. > :49:54.in England. The mapping system is clearly in the right direction, do
:49:55. > :49:58.you think it will solve this problem of heavy goods vehicles blighting
:49:59. > :50:04.roo wrote villages? Will it do much for that, do you think -- blighting
:50:05. > :50:08.rural villages. Like you, we think it is a step in the right direction
:50:09. > :50:12.but not as far as we would like to go. At the moment, truck drivers do
:50:13. > :50:16.have access to a lot of information and some choose either not to access
:50:17. > :50:22.it or to ignore it. Quite obviously, there are signs about weight or
:50:23. > :50:26.height restriction coming up and those are perfectly visible to a
:50:27. > :50:29.truck driver, so many of our communities, particularly rural
:50:30. > :50:35.communities, has seen this blight for many years and what we are
:50:36. > :50:41.saying is this is a good step for responsible lorry drivers, but those
:50:42. > :50:47.irresponsible ones, inconsiderate drivers, we need a bit of a stick as
:50:48. > :50:51.well. At the moment, police take them through the courts. It is a
:50:52. > :50:56.long, lengthy, costly bureaucratic process. We are saying and on the
:50:57. > :51:00.spot fine for lorries that are using roads that are clearly unsuitable
:51:01. > :51:04.for them. Do you have enough enforcement powers at the moment to
:51:05. > :51:11.do them or to make these finds effective or do you need more power
:51:12. > :51:16.-- fines. We have consistently asked for more power on this issue. At the
:51:17. > :51:21.moment, only the police can take the drivers through the courts, hugely
:51:22. > :51:25.costly bureaucratic process and we are saying it is fairly obvious when
:51:26. > :51:30.an infringement has happened and councils are best placed to put an
:51:31. > :51:33.on the spot fine and get that company thinking again about sending
:51:34. > :51:39.their drivers on a particular route. I think it is kind of hard to miss a
:51:40. > :51:44.32 tonne articulated truck on a road that it shouldn't be. What do you
:51:45. > :51:50.think would be an appropriate level of fine, that would hit the hauliers
:51:51. > :51:55.and make them stop doing this? We haven't spoken about the level of
:51:56. > :51:57.fine, we are saying let's look at something that is sensible, because
:51:58. > :52:05.actually, not all infringements are the same. But I think we need to at
:52:06. > :52:08.least go in the right direction and say let's take this off the police
:52:09. > :52:11.who frankly have other things to do and should be spending their time is
:52:12. > :52:15.in the with the bureaucratic process we have at the moment, where pounds
:52:16. > :52:22.in the late councils would be better placed to sort these problems out --
:52:23. > :52:24.where councils would be. I see the haulage Association is blaming you
:52:25. > :52:31.with poor signage. What do you say to that? TROs, the pieces of paper
:52:32. > :52:35.we have to put in and we put in a height or weight restriction, they
:52:36. > :52:39.are public knowledge, this is the information they are using for this
:52:40. > :52:46.new system, so to say that they don't know where the issues are is a
:52:47. > :52:51.bit of a misnomer, I think a red herring. Clearly, they are
:52:52. > :52:56.representing their own people in this, but we have all seen stories
:52:57. > :53:02.of historic buildings being damaged, bridges being damaged, vehicles
:53:03. > :53:06.being stuck. We are all getting frustrated when something like this
:53:07. > :53:10.happens and we can't get to where we need to get to. Thank you for being
:53:11. > :53:14.with us and explaining that. It is an interesting issue to talk about.
:53:15. > :53:24.Let me turn to our guests here, with a quiz. How many miles of road are
:53:25. > :53:35.there in Great Britain? In crikey. 100,000? 10,000. You are closer, but
:53:36. > :53:44.not close. 215,000 940. What is the most common road name? Station Road.
:53:45. > :53:52.Almost kind of close, I consider where you are thinking. Something to
:53:53. > :53:57.do with Elizabeth. High Street. Got it, there are 2151. How many mini
:53:58. > :54:09.roundabouts are there across Great Britain, excluding Northern Ireland,
:54:10. > :54:13.I guess? 2,000. 5,000. You are closer, 13100 and 48. There you go,
:54:14. > :54:16.interesting but useless stats here on the Daily Politics.
:54:17. > :54:19.There are just over two weeks to go until the US election,
:54:20. > :54:21.and after the intensity of Wednesday night's presidential
:54:22. > :54:23.debate, Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump traded jokes -
:54:24. > :54:27.and insults - at a white tie charity dinner in New York last night.
:54:28. > :54:32.The media is even more biased this year than ever before.
:54:33. > :54:43.Michelle Obama gives a speech and everyone loves it,
:54:44. > :54:53.My wife Melania gives the exact same speech...
:54:54. > :55:05.People look at the Statue of Liberty and they see a proud symbol
:55:06. > :55:09.of our history as a nation of immigrants.
:55:10. > :55:13.A beacon of hope for people around the world.
:55:14. > :55:15.Donald looks at the Statue of Liberty
:55:16. > :55:24.Maybe a five, if she loses the torch and tablet
:55:25. > :55:41.Well, I think Mr Trump's joke was better, wasn't it? It was quite
:55:42. > :55:46.clever, in a way. The delivery was a lot better. That was the only good
:55:47. > :55:50.joke he had, because it was self-deprecating, the rest of it was
:55:51. > :55:54.a barrage of attacks. It was excruciating to watch, if I had been
:55:55. > :55:58.in the audience, I would have been embarrassed. Mrs Clinton is sitting
:55:59. > :56:03.there and he is saying all that, and then she does it to a lesser extent.
:56:04. > :56:07.It kind of underpinned the horrible tone, the toxic tone of the whole
:56:08. > :56:13.campaign. Absolutely, this was supposed to be a charity event. You
:56:14. > :56:17.don't go on the attack. When it was Barack Obama and Mitt Romney, they
:56:18. > :56:22.undermined themselves with some nice gentle, self-deprecating humour.
:56:23. > :56:25.This one was all toxic. If the polls are right, and this is always a big
:56:26. > :56:31.if these days, but if they stayed away we are, -- they are, are we
:56:32. > :56:35.starting to work out what the Clinton presidency might look like?
:56:36. > :56:41.This has been a campaign dominated by personal smear and almost total
:56:42. > :56:44.absence of policy. I think that certainly foreign leaders will have
:56:45. > :56:48.to turn to that in the coming weeks, but as you say, you just can't count
:56:49. > :56:54.any chickens before the actual election day. Mrs Clinton got
:56:55. > :57:02.dragged to the left by Bernie Sanders during the primary campaign.
:57:03. > :57:06.As she moved more towards the centre during... That is not the what
:57:07. > :57:10.happens, you get dragged, though not necessarily in Mr Trump's case, you
:57:11. > :57:15.get dragged to the extreme in the primary, or to your grass roots,
:57:16. > :57:19.more fundamentalists, and then because you have to reach out to a
:57:20. > :57:23.wider electorate beyond your base, you become more centrist again. Has
:57:24. > :57:27.she followed that? It will be interesting and picks up on what we
:57:28. > :57:30.said earlier about free trade and the threat to free trade and
:57:31. > :57:34.globalisation and whether there is a new movement towards protectionism
:57:35. > :57:39.abroad. The way she has talked in this campaign, she has said maybe we
:57:40. > :57:44.don't need a free-trade area with the Pacific region as much as we
:57:45. > :57:47.have had. I suspect she won't say that when she wins and when it comes
:57:48. > :57:51.to foreign policy, which is where the president can have free rein by
:57:52. > :57:56.and large, we will see a lot more of her talking about climate change on
:57:57. > :57:59.Middle East policy and a more robust policy against Russia. Even if it is
:58:00. > :58:02.Mr Trump and a Republican Congress, he will have trouble with that
:58:03. > :58:06.Congress because a lot of Republicans don't think he is a
:58:07. > :58:12.Republican. And if it is Mrs Clinton in the White House with a Republican
:58:13. > :58:15.Congress, she will definitely have a lot of trouble with it. It is not
:58:16. > :58:19.plain sailing, whoever wins. Whoever wins, it will be an interesting time
:58:20. > :58:24.watching US politics and I think Paul is absolutely right, I think if
:58:25. > :58:27.it is Hillary Clinton, as looks likely, she will be tacking more to
:58:28. > :58:33.the centre. But Trump can undermine her. Sorry we couldn't bring it is
:58:34. > :58:37.it was a press conference, because it hasn't happened, we haven't had a
:58:38. > :58:43.link. And what was the name of the new submarine we are going to get?
:58:44. > :58:47.Dreadnought, Thatcher, Trafalgar, Churchill? Any idea? It is
:58:48. > :58:50.dreadnought, not that original but a famous name in the Royal Navy. The
:58:51. > :58:58.one o'clock News is starting over on BBC One and I will be back at 11am
:58:59. > :59:01.on Sunday morning with the Sunday Politics. Cabaye. -- goodbye.