:01:01. > :01:00.Welcome to the Daily Politics. still driver England and Wales.
:01:01. > :01:20.Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has accused the Government of planning
:01:21. > :01:23.And we head to Richmond to ask people there whether Heathrow
:01:24. > :01:26.expansion or Brexit will be more important to them when casting
:01:27. > :01:37.The reason I chose Brexit is, it's going to have an immediate effect on
:01:38. > :01:45.me, whereas Heathrow I don't think will ever happen.
:01:46. > :01:48.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:49. > :01:50.of the programme today is the Labour peer Baroness Prosser.
:01:51. > :01:53.Margaret is a former Deputy General Secretary at the Transport
:01:54. > :01:57.and General Workers Union and she now sits on the Joint
:01:58. > :01:59.Committee on Human Rights Committee in Parliament.
:02:00. > :02:06.Now, this morning, we've heard that Nissan has confirmed it will build
:02:07. > :02:14.both the new Qashqai and the X-Trail SUV at its Sunderland plant
:02:15. > :02:16.in the first major development for the car industry
:02:17. > :02:24.The Japanese company's commitment to Britain's biggest car plant had
:02:25. > :02:31.been in doubt following the referendum.
:02:32. > :02:34.And with GDP figures out today which show the British economy
:02:35. > :02:38.bucking expectations of substantial slowdown, it looks as if Brexiteers
:02:39. > :02:45.The Office for National Statistics showed that between July
:02:46. > :02:50.and September, the economy grew by 0.5%.
:02:51. > :02:56.The Chancellor, Philip Hammond, said he was pleased by the figures.
:02:57. > :02:58.The economy has proved to be very resilient.
:02:59. > :03:00.We went into the referendum, I think the figures now
:03:01. > :03:06.show, stronger than we thought at the time.
:03:07. > :03:08.And the economy has held up very well since.
:03:09. > :03:12.But we are going to have a period of uncertainty ahead,
:03:13. > :03:16.as business waits to see the outcome of the European Union negotiations.
:03:17. > :03:19.And we have to make sure that we are prepared and ready
:03:20. > :03:23.to support the economy during that period, to make sure that we get
:03:24. > :03:26.a successful outcome to the negotiations and successfully
:03:27. > :03:31.support the economy through that period.
:03:32. > :03:34.Before the European referendum, predictions were being made
:03:35. > :03:37.of an immediate and significant impact on the UK economy
:03:38. > :03:43.David Cameron said it would put a bomb under the UK economy.
:03:44. > :03:47.George Osborne warned of a DIY recession.
:03:48. > :03:51.But so far, these predictions have not come to pass.
:03:52. > :03:57.So, how has the economy been faring since the 23rd of June?
:03:58. > :04:00.The star bakers in the economic kitchen have been producing
:04:01. > :04:05.As we've been hearing, GDP grew by 0.5% between July
:04:06. > :04:10.That's better than expected - the Bank of England had predicted
:04:11. > :04:23.The employment rate is currently 74.5% -
:04:24. > :04:28.that's the joint highest it's been since records began in the '70s.
:04:29. > :04:31.And consumer confidence has also been looking tasty -
:04:32. > :04:34.in September, the retail sales figure was up over 4%
:04:35. > :04:41.But it hasn't all been sugar-coated - there have been some
:04:42. > :04:47.The pound has been falling pretty steadily against the dollar.
:04:48. > :04:50.It reached a 31-year low earlier this month, although it has
:04:51. > :04:57.Inflation jumped to 1% in September and that's bitter
:04:58. > :05:05.The CPI index is the highest it's been for nearly two years.
:05:06. > :05:09.And at the weekend, the British Bankers' Association
:05:10. > :05:19.warned that there could be an exodus from the City early next year.
:05:20. > :05:22.According to the lobbying group, banks are poised to hit
:05:23. > :05:33.Joining me now are Baroness Patience Wheatcroft and Liam Halligan.
:05:34. > :05:42.Welcome to you both. Most of these short-term predictions haven't come
:05:43. > :05:48.true, have they? Things have not got bad yet but they will. But we were
:05:49. > :05:53.told that they would be bad by now, that it was going to be an immediate
:05:54. > :05:57.effect, a vote to leave said the Treasury "Would cause an immediate
:05:58. > :06:04.and profound economic shock". The Treasury was slightly exaggerating.
:06:05. > :06:10.Any decision that was taken ahead of Brexit would take some time to
:06:11. > :06:13.impact. It wasn't just the Treasury, it was David Cameron, George
:06:14. > :06:18.Osborne, the Bank of England, the IMF, the OECD and the World Bank.
:06:19. > :06:22.They all said the impact would be immediate and they were wrong. They
:06:23. > :06:29.were wrong, the impact hasn't been immediate, but it is already
:06:30. > :06:33.impacting on banks that are having their finger poised on the trigger.
:06:34. > :06:38.We don't know that to be true, could you name a bank that has its finger
:06:39. > :06:43.poised on the trigger? I certainly could. HSBC is thinking about what
:06:44. > :06:49.to do. HSBC has ruled out leaving, it spent 18 months relocating its
:06:50. > :06:53.headquarters to Hong Kong and decided it would stay here. They are
:06:54. > :06:56.not going to move everybody out but they will move people, and they are
:06:57. > :07:03.going to move people. They going to move people? I did think so. This is
:07:04. > :07:07.a lot of bluster and hot air. Nissan said in 2002 if we didn't join the
:07:08. > :07:11.euro they would leave the UK, they said if we voted for Brexit they
:07:12. > :07:18.would leave the UK. They've just confirmed they are going to increase
:07:19. > :07:23.their investment. It's part of a CEO's drop to occasionally hold a
:07:24. > :07:27.gun to the government's head. But we don't know what Nissan has been
:07:28. > :07:32.promised... I agree, I think the government should have called their
:07:33. > :07:34.bluff. I think they took advantage of an inexperienced government. We
:07:35. > :07:37.don't know what the government has done yet but is probably no more
:07:38. > :07:41.than the French government would have done. Nevertheless it's a deal
:07:42. > :07:46.that has obviously been done behind closed doors. What does it matter if
:07:47. > :07:50.it results in the production of cars in Sunderland, for which there was a
:07:51. > :07:57.question over it, is going to go from 475,000 a year to 600,000 a
:07:58. > :08:02.year. Over 7000 jobs secured. It will become a super plant in
:08:03. > :08:07.Sunderland. Not one but two new cars will be produced. It depends how
:08:08. > :08:11.much you are paying for it, and we don't know how much we are paying
:08:12. > :08:16.for it. It would have to be a lot for it not to be worth it. It
:08:17. > :08:20.probably would be a lot and it would be a lot that would have to be paid
:08:21. > :08:26.to other car manufacturers. What about other jobs in manufacturing? I
:08:27. > :08:32.share your reticence on this. I think governments have to face down
:08:33. > :08:36.big powerful manufacturers and other companies and the financial services
:08:37. > :08:39.industry too. We've got to show confidence. There is a case to
:08:40. > :08:43.invest in the UK on its own merits. We've just been voted one of the
:08:44. > :08:48.best places in the world to do business. It's not all good news.
:08:49. > :08:51.Even in the short term the 0.5% third-quarter figure is much
:08:52. > :09:04.stronger than project fear forecasted. But, the only sector to
:09:05. > :09:09.grow was services. Every other sector, construction, manufacturing,
:09:10. > :09:13.industrial production, all down. I agree. I've written two years my
:09:14. > :09:18.concerns about the imbalances in the UK economy. I think, yes, we have a
:09:19. > :09:22.hard GDP number now for a post-Brexit vote quarter but it's a
:09:23. > :09:26.preliminary number. I'm not crowing about this number as a Brexiteer.
:09:27. > :09:33.There's still a lot of imbalances, I'm concerned about the amount of Q
:09:34. > :09:37.E we are still talking about, the fact we've just cut interest rates.
:09:38. > :09:43.I'm not completely happy but it's clear that the Treasury and other
:09:44. > :09:47.fear mongers need to take a bow. The issue with, if they got the forecast
:09:48. > :09:52.of the last three months wrong, if they couldn't even tell us what was
:09:53. > :09:56.going to happen in July, August and September, why would you trust them
:09:57. > :10:00.to tell us what's happening in 3-5 years' time? I didn't think you
:10:01. > :10:04.should trust economists to tell you what's going to happen at any stage.
:10:05. > :10:10.It was used during the referendum campaign. I would rather wait and
:10:11. > :10:15.see what happens. Brexit was the vote taken in June. Any decisions
:10:16. > :10:19.taken after that will not have taken effect yet. These are long-term
:10:20. > :10:28.decisions. Wait until next year when you see inflation kicking in at 6-7%
:10:29. > :10:32.in food prices, maybe even more. The British consumer will then have to
:10:33. > :10:38.lock down. We don't know by how much, but it's there to wish you as
:10:39. > :10:47.Patience Wheatcroft says, inflation will rise. There are two dangers
:10:48. > :10:52.here. One is there's a danger that prices will rise faster than wages.
:10:53. > :10:58.That will cripple consumers spending which is almost 70% of the economy.
:10:59. > :11:00.The second is because of the inevitable uncertainty, both
:11:01. > :11:06.domestic business investment and foreign direct investment are likely
:11:07. > :11:11.to go on pause. Both of these could slow the economy next year. I
:11:12. > :11:14.completely agree. I said before the referendum and have said since,
:11:15. > :11:18.clearly however Brexit is done there's going to be an impact on the
:11:19. > :11:22.long-term decisions of businessmen and women who make real moves with
:11:23. > :11:27.money rather than sitting in TV studios aren't talking about it.
:11:28. > :11:31.That's why I don't want a long, drawn-out row with the rest of the
:11:32. > :11:35.European Union that will make us look very business unfriendly.
:11:36. > :11:38.That's why I want a clean Brexit. That will minimise the inevitable
:11:39. > :11:44.business uncertainty. I'm afraid the truth is we don't know what we are
:11:45. > :11:46.doing the country. We've got three Brexiteers who are complaining that
:11:47. > :11:55.people in Europe and being very nice to them. Who's complaining? Liam
:11:56. > :11:59.Fox. Had he said that. I paraphrase. He was upset by the reception he was
:12:00. > :12:03.getting and he thought we should get a more positive reception. I thought
:12:04. > :12:17.he had been mainly going to Canada, Australia... I think we should kick
:12:18. > :12:21.this Eurocrats into touch. The news for Sunderland is fantastic this
:12:22. > :12:26.morning, isn't it? It is very good. I hope also that the government will
:12:27. > :12:31.recognise that all the eggs in the basket of Nissan went to be healthy
:12:32. > :12:35.for the area. There needs to be infrastructure and jobs down the
:12:36. > :12:41.line based in that area, so that everybody benefits. It looks like
:12:42. > :12:44.the plant itself is going to expand and that will have both direct and
:12:45. > :12:51.indirect impact in the north-east. It will. It has among the highest
:12:52. > :12:55.productivity of any car plant in the world. People in the north-east,
:12:56. > :13:00.despite the fact many of them have had jobs at Nissan for a long time,
:13:01. > :13:05.voted in big numbers to come out of Europe. They must have felt
:13:06. > :13:09.dissatisfied with how the economy was treating them. So I do think
:13:10. > :13:13.account has got to be taken of all of that. What's the knock-on effect
:13:14. > :13:18.for people in the north-east and many of them it's going to be good,
:13:19. > :13:25.but don't leave out those on the periphery. I surprised a lot of the
:13:26. > :13:30.short-term forecasts have turned out to be far more gloomy than the
:13:31. > :13:35.reality? No, I'm not surprised. I thought it would be gloomy. It's
:13:36. > :13:41.been far less gloomy. The forecasts were more gloomy than the reality.
:13:42. > :13:45.The Treasury was forecasting with enter recession. The reality for
:13:46. > :13:50.some people is pretty gloomy, isn't it? What goes on at a macro level is
:13:51. > :13:54.one thing. What happens when you go out and you change your pound notes
:13:55. > :14:00.into euros and you find you don't get as many year rose as you would
:14:01. > :14:05.have liked. You were talking a moment ago about immediate effects.
:14:06. > :14:08.Between June and September, three months, that's pretty quick in the
:14:09. > :14:15.great scheme of things. People going on holiday, lots of people on what
:14:16. > :14:17.you might call ordinary wages go to European countries on holiday
:14:18. > :14:22.because traditionally that has been a good bargain. They find that
:14:23. > :14:26.actually was much more expensive than they thought. What's more
:14:27. > :14:31.important to the future of the country, the ability for people to
:14:32. > :14:36.go abroad on holiday cheaply or the ability of Nissan and Jaguar and
:14:37. > :14:40.Rolls-Royce and British Aerospace to sell their goods abroad more
:14:41. > :14:44.competitively? Why does that have to be an either or? Because the
:14:45. > :14:49.currency makes it an either or. The country would go round in a much
:14:50. > :14:54.more happy and beneficial way if more people had more money in their
:14:55. > :14:59.pockets to put into the economy to spend so it comes back. That's
:15:00. > :15:00.what's been going wrong... Which may be a difficulty next year if
:15:01. > :15:11.installation starts rising. There are reports you are part of a
:15:12. > :15:15.group of peers plotting to undo the referendum result. What is the
:15:16. > :15:19.truth? There was certainly no plot. I think there are a number of
:15:20. > :15:23.people, both in and out of the House of Lords, who very much regret the
:15:24. > :15:28.decision that was taken... But what are you trying to do? We feel there
:15:29. > :15:33.should be a vote in parliament. This is all about sovereignty of
:15:34. > :15:35.Parliament, sovereignty of the country. The sovereignty of
:15:36. > :15:40.Parliament demands that this should not be a decision pressing the
:15:41. > :15:44.button on Article 50 just for the Prime Minister. It is too much for
:15:45. > :15:51.any individual to take. But the country voted on June 23, over 17
:15:52. > :15:56.million people, to do just this. What gives you, as an unelected
:15:57. > :16:00.peer, any democratic legitimacy in this? The country voted not by an
:16:01. > :16:03.overwhelming majority, but nevertheless, the country voted in
:16:04. > :16:06.favour of Brexit not knowing what Brexit means and we are still told
:16:07. > :16:13.that Brexit means Brexit. We don't know what it means. But who elected
:16:14. > :16:17.you? I'm not elected. So what gives you any democratic legitimacy on
:16:18. > :16:21.this? I don't have a right to overturn the will of the people at
:16:22. > :16:27.all. But you would vote against triggering article 50. Until we are
:16:28. > :16:30.clear on what lies ahead. So you would interfere with the will of the
:16:31. > :16:35.people. As an unelected peer, you would vote against the wishes of
:16:36. > :16:40.17.4 million people on June 23. It might be in the House of Lords that
:16:41. > :16:48.we vote against what you call the will of the people, it may well be.
:16:49. > :16:51.The House of Lords has a duty to say to the Commons, just think about
:16:52. > :16:56.this, make sure before you do it. It is not a right to overturn but it is
:16:57. > :17:00.a duty. But what is the point of voting against it if you don't
:17:01. > :17:06.overturn it? To let more detail come through so that we know what it is
:17:07. > :17:09.we are voting for. If we reverse this, I'm afraid a lot of the
:17:10. > :17:13.public's faith in mainstream politics will be severely dented in
:17:14. > :17:16.this country. I think a lot of people are feeling deeply
:17:17. > :17:23.uncomfortable by the rising tide of nationalism. But the majority voted.
:17:24. > :17:28.It was a clear majority. The Government were handing out leaflets
:17:29. > :17:32.to people's home is saying, the Government will input your decision.
:17:33. > :17:37.I'd only the kid is possible to vote against the will of the people. That
:17:38. > :17:39.would cause mayhem. Thank you both for being with us.
:17:40. > :17:43.The question for today is, who did the Queen mistake Vladimir Putin
:17:44. > :18:04.You had to be named Andrew before you were mistaken, clearly!
:18:05. > :18:06.At the end of the show, Margaret will give us
:18:07. > :18:16.I have very bad form on quizzes on this answer! Fortunately, I know the
:18:17. > :18:18.answer. You will have to whisper it to me!
:18:19. > :18:20.So, the announcement about Nissan has rather overshadowed
:18:21. > :18:22.the speech this morning which the Shadow Chancellor
:18:23. > :18:28.In it, he warned the Government against carrying out a "bankers'
:18:29. > :18:31.Brexit" at the expense of the rest of the overall economy,
:18:32. > :18:33.urging it not to ignore the needs of small businesses.
:18:34. > :18:35.Already, Tory Cabinet members are looking to cook up special
:18:36. > :18:38.deals for their friends in the City of London.
:18:39. > :18:41.They want a bankers' Brexit in the interests of the elite
:18:42. > :18:45.They'll be willing to cut a deal for finance but ignore
:18:46. > :18:49.our small businesses and many of our manufacturers.
:18:50. > :18:53.Let me be clear - those who have voted Conservative in 2015 are not
:18:54. > :18:58.Like me, you have friends who voted Conservative.
:18:59. > :19:03.They don't want a bankers' Brexit any more than I do.
:19:04. > :19:05.The simple truth is that the Tory establishment cannot be trusted
:19:06. > :19:14.And we're joined now by the Shadow City Minister Jonathan Reynolds,
:19:15. > :19:24.who is also a member of Labour's Brexit team.
:19:25. > :19:32.jobs for the price of one! Welcome to the programme. What is the
:19:33. > :19:36.evidence that the Government wants to, quote, cut a deal for finance
:19:37. > :19:41.and ignore small businesses and manufacturers? John is referring to
:19:42. > :19:48.the story in the Financial Times last week about the possibility of a
:19:49. > :19:52.specific deal for financial services cut before the rest of the deal is
:19:53. > :19:55.ready. What John said today was that when we get this Brexit deal in
:19:56. > :20:02.place, which only has to cover all of the economy, it can't be done
:20:03. > :20:05.piece by piece. This was based on unsourced story in the Financial
:20:06. > :20:09.Times, but as I can find no government minister on record saying
:20:10. > :20:12.that that's what they want to do. John is putting a the league
:20:13. > :20:17.position, which is that it must cover all of the economy. Given that
:20:18. > :20:23.we can't find anybody saying that we need to cut a deal just for finance,
:20:24. > :20:28.what is the evidence that the Government doesn't want to take into
:20:29. > :20:31.account manufacturers, given the news from Nissan this morning? We
:20:32. > :20:34.don't know what the Government wants to take into account because it
:20:35. > :20:38.won't tell us, it won't tell us the negotiating strategy or bring that
:20:39. > :20:41.to Parliament. In relation to Nissan, I grew up close to that
:20:42. > :20:45.factory and it is fantastic news that those models will be made there
:20:46. > :20:49.but you can't do a deal like this factory by factory, shop floor to
:20:50. > :20:53.shop floor. It is not factory by factory, it is
:20:54. > :20:57.with one of the biggest companies in the world. One of the other biggest
:20:58. > :21:05.car companies is jaguar and Tata. Are you saying we couldn't do a deal
:21:06. > :21:09.with them? Since the Shadow Chancellor said, the Government is
:21:10. > :21:13.ignoring manufacturers, the evidence from Nissan today and other talks
:21:14. > :21:17.would suggest there is no evidence for that. I'd say the evidence is
:21:18. > :21:20.that what we have is chaos. We don't know the position from the
:21:21. > :21:28.Government. You can't do it company by company. If there was chaos, why
:21:29. > :21:31.would Nissan, which could go anywhere in the world, make this
:21:32. > :21:37.massive investment in a chaotic country? It can make the investment
:21:38. > :21:42.because it has had support and assurances. So that's not chaos. But
:21:43. > :21:49.you can't do that company by company. You've said that. If there
:21:50. > :21:53.was chaos in this country, Nissan wouldn't come near it. The
:21:54. > :21:56.Government's approach is chaotic and I think it's been
:21:57. > :22:00.counter-productive. They should be frank with the British people as to
:22:01. > :22:04.our negotiating strategy. John McDonell said in July that he
:22:05. > :22:08.wouldn't support any exit deal that didn't involve our sporting for the
:22:09. > :22:13.financial sector, which allows them to operate throughout Europe. --
:22:14. > :22:16.past sporting. You wouldn't get that unless you offer some privileged
:22:17. > :22:22.position for finance as well, so what is the difference? You need to
:22:23. > :22:28.achieve some sort of agreement which has come parable access, something
:22:29. > :22:32.that isn't a's at it as useful as. You would need to cut a deal for
:22:33. > :22:35.finance. You are complaining that the Government is trying to cut a
:22:36. > :22:39.deal for finance, which we have no evidence for. It can't just before
:22:40. > :22:46.that one sector at that time. There is no evidence that the is doing
:22:47. > :22:51.that. We don't have that evidence. So it is an aunt Sally. It is a very
:22:52. > :22:54.clear problem. If the Government can tell Nissan its strategy, why can't
:22:55. > :22:58.it tell the House of Commons? Why would you not want to cut a deal for
:22:59. > :23:02.finance, given how important it is for the British economy? Because to
:23:03. > :23:06.get the best deal, you need to get all the interests of the economy
:23:07. > :23:09.lined up together. You've got to tie in German exporting goods to our
:23:10. > :23:12.need to get access to financial services and that's how we'll get
:23:13. > :23:17.the best deal. It is not just about which parts of our economy should
:23:18. > :23:22.get favourable treatment. I come again to, what evidence do you have
:23:23. > :23:25.but the government is not proceeding in that way, that its intention is
:23:26. > :23:32.to do it that way, with manufacturing, small businesses and
:23:33. > :23:36.finance? It won't tell us. Always had so far is, we want lists of
:23:37. > :23:40.foreign workers, damaging our reputation abroad. They won't
:23:41. > :23:44.confirm the status of EU nationals, what terms financial services will
:23:45. > :23:50.have. We have Tory MPs attacking the Bank of England. At the Labour
:23:51. > :23:53.conference, Mr Corbyn put your body on an election footing, where he
:23:54. > :23:58.said he thought there would be a snap election early next year so it
:23:59. > :24:02.is important we know what your party stands for, since we might be only a
:24:03. > :24:06.couple of months from an election. Is it Labour policy to remain a
:24:07. > :24:10.member of the single market? No, it is the policy to try to achieve the
:24:11. > :24:15.fullest possible access to the single market. We recognise and
:24:16. > :24:18.respect the vote and that has got to be on the basis which we proceed.
:24:19. > :24:21.I'm grateful for that because that is a clear answer but it is not what
:24:22. > :24:24.we've had from other Labour politicians, including your boss.
:24:25. > :24:29.John McDonell said last month that single market membership would be
:24:30. > :24:32.preferable, Emily Thornberry described it as very important and
:24:33. > :24:38.your shadow chief secretary described it as a red line. So are
:24:39. > :24:43.you this morning restating Labour policy more accurately and clearer,
:24:44. > :24:46.that membership is not the policy? I'm confident that what I've just
:24:47. > :24:50.told you is the view of the Shadow Cabinet. So it has changed from what
:24:51. > :24:54.John McDonell, Emily Thornberry and but she secretary said recently? The
:24:55. > :25:02.policy is to try to achieve the fullest possible access. Which is
:25:03. > :25:07.the government policy, to, isn't it? Perhaps they will tell us. What is
:25:08. > :25:11.your policy on immigration from Europe? There is no doubt that
:25:12. > :25:15.immigration played a significant part in the referendum, as anyone
:25:16. > :25:19.who was out canvassing will have experience. We are seeking the means
:25:20. > :25:24.to address those concerns, in terms of mitigating the impact on public
:25:25. > :25:30.services, addressing wages. We will prioritise the economy first. When
:25:31. > :25:34.we leave the European Union, at the moment we know because of the free
:25:35. > :25:40.movement that people can come here as they see fit and, of course, we
:25:41. > :25:44.can go there as well. That is part of the whole free movement of
:25:45. > :25:48.European Union. When we leave, though, we will need a policy to
:25:49. > :25:53.determine who can come here and who won't. What will that policy be? It
:25:54. > :25:57.will be about making sure our industries can still recruit skilled
:25:58. > :26:00.labour, which is huge part of it. There will clearly be to be some
:26:01. > :26:04.element of unskilled labour that still comes to this country but we
:26:05. > :26:07.won't scapegoat migrants, as we've seen in some parts of the right in
:26:08. > :26:13.this country. I wouldn't expect you to do that at all but will you put a
:26:14. > :26:19.limit on numbers? At the moment, the net migration from the EU is about
:26:20. > :26:23.180,000, I think, in the latest figures. Would you seek to reduce
:26:24. > :26:26.that, keep at the same, increase it? In terms of a wide economic plans,
:26:27. > :26:29.you would see a reduction of immigration just because of the
:26:30. > :26:36.types of investment on priorities we want to make but we're not going to
:26:37. > :26:40.put numbers on it. The numbers in terms of... One final question,
:26:41. > :26:45.because you are speaking generalities, in what way would your
:26:46. > :26:54.policy following our membership be different from now? In terms of
:26:55. > :26:57.immigration? Yes. It would be, I think, something which is better
:26:58. > :27:03.able to respond to the impact on public services and better able to
:27:04. > :27:06.prevent wage rates declining. The British public are not so worried
:27:07. > :27:10.about immigration in terms of what it means for the city, it is about
:27:11. > :27:16.the impact on the labour market and public services. Do you accept that
:27:17. > :27:20.given that it is the Government's position that we don't want to be
:27:21. > :27:24.under the European court's jurisdiction, that we want some
:27:25. > :27:28.control on movement, so not total free movement, and we want to be
:27:29. > :27:31.able to make our own free trade deals, that you add these three
:27:32. > :27:34.things together, we can still have access to the single market but we
:27:35. > :27:40.can't be a member of the single market. Do you accept that? I don't
:27:41. > :27:46.see the other 27 countries in Europe being happy about that. Why would
:27:47. > :27:53.they agree that we should have terms which are, some would say, much more
:27:54. > :27:57.favourable than the terms they have? Germany... If you look at not just
:27:58. > :28:07.the movement of labour around Europe but the refugee problem etc, other
:28:08. > :28:12.countries in Europe have taken far more people than us. Why would you,
:28:13. > :28:17.if you were a leader, Angela Merkel, for example, or anybody in Germany,
:28:18. > :28:23.say, OK, UK, you go over there and is in completely different and we're
:28:24. > :28:25.still happy... The game is now full access, as much access as you can
:28:26. > :28:30.get? Absolutely. Thank you. Now, while French officials say
:28:31. > :28:32.that they have successfully cleared the Calais camp known as the Jungle,
:28:33. > :28:34.charities claim that dozens of children spent
:28:35. > :28:36.the night sleeping rough. More than 5,500 people have
:28:37. > :28:39.been moved from the camp to reception centres across France
:28:40. > :28:53.since Monday, when the This includes about 1500
:28:54. > :28:54.unaccompanied minors being housed in a temporary camp on-site.
:28:55. > :28:58.We can talk now to BBC reporter Simon Jones, who's in Calais.
:28:59. > :29:05.Bring us up-to-date with what's happening this morning. Well,
:29:06. > :29:09.another day in Calais and another day of confusion. In the past few
:29:10. > :29:13.moments, we've just seen some smoke coming from the camp, which may
:29:14. > :29:17.suggest there could be more fires being started. Fire ripped through
:29:18. > :29:19.the camp yesterday, causing so many problems. People had to leave the
:29:20. > :29:23.camp and there were real concerns about some of the children involved
:29:24. > :29:28.in this, because the charities have been telling us that last night,
:29:29. > :29:33.towards the end of the evening, some 70 children had actually nowhere to
:29:34. > :29:36.sleep so they had to step in, finding places for them at a nearby
:29:37. > :29:40.hangar and also at a nearby school. The authorities here are saying, job
:29:41. > :29:45.done, effectively. The migrants have been moved from the camp. But if we
:29:46. > :29:49.walk over here, you can see, there are still a large number of people
:29:50. > :29:53.here who haven't left Calais and are still on the outskirts of the camp.
:29:54. > :29:56.The authorities have been telling us today that they believe some of
:29:57. > :30:00.these people have actually come from other parts of France because they
:30:01. > :30:03.had the operation was going so successfully, to try to get to
:30:04. > :30:08.centres elsewhere in France. There was also an issue with the children.
:30:09. > :30:11.We're told by the association is that the children have been asked to
:30:12. > :30:16.come here around now, possibly to get a bus to centres in other parts
:30:17. > :30:19.of France. But real concern particularly for the vulnerable
:30:20. > :30:22.children who yesterday were inside the camp, and they saw a lot of the
:30:23. > :30:26.place that they call their home going up in flames. We saw these
:30:27. > :30:31.quite horrendous pictures on television and we see some of
:30:32. > :30:36.clearly children behind you there as well. If you take into account the
:30:37. > :30:41.people behind you, the unaccompanied minors, others who are still there,
:30:42. > :30:46.how many people are still in the Jungle or the vicinity of it, and
:30:47. > :30:50.what is the French authorities' plan to do with them?
:30:51. > :30:57.There's probably a few hundred people still here in Calais, despite
:30:58. > :31:02.the fact more than 5000 have been moved. When we spoke to the prefect,
:31:03. > :31:07.one of the top officials in Calais earlier today, she told us that
:31:08. > :31:11.effectively everyone in the Jungle had been dealt with. And people who
:31:12. > :31:15.had come from other parts of France had to simply move somewhere else.
:31:16. > :31:18.Whether that's going to happen remains to be seen. With some of the
:31:19. > :31:23.children we are told they will be offered safety. It's a question of
:31:24. > :31:27.trying to determine who the children are. Despite the fact there has been
:31:28. > :31:32.chaos and confusion, I think politicians in France and the
:31:33. > :31:36.president will be quite satisfied that after day four of this
:31:37. > :31:40.operation, a large number of people have been moved elsewhere in France
:31:41. > :31:46.and we haven't seen a great outbreak of violence or disorder. Thank you.
:31:47. > :31:54.Simon reporting from the camp in Calais. His words and pictures
:31:55. > :31:57.showing it is clearly a problem that hasn't yet been resolved. President
:31:58. > :32:05.Hollande will regard it as a plus but he needs all the pluses he can
:32:06. > :32:06.get. His approval rating is currently at 4%. And British
:32:07. > :32:10.politicians think they're unpopular! The prominent Leave campaigner
:32:11. > :32:12.and former Cabinet minister Michael Gove has been elected to sit
:32:13. > :32:15.on a powerful new Brexit He will join a cross-party committee
:32:16. > :32:23.of MPs which will scrutinise the Government as it negotiates
:32:24. > :32:25.Britain's exit from The former Justice Secretary has
:32:26. > :32:29.also joined forces with Lord Glasman to come up with a proposal
:32:30. > :32:39.for a new immigration Welcome back. Lovely to see you,
:32:40. > :32:48.Andrew. Good to see you're out of hiding! Back from holiday. I've been
:32:49. > :32:57.in the Times. I see you are gainfully employed again! Mark the
:32:58. > :33:06.government's Brexit performance to date. How is it doing? I think I'd
:33:07. > :33:09.give it an capital a but not a capital a star. There's detail still
:33:10. > :33:16.to be fleshed out but it's important to recognise the Prime Minister has
:33:17. > :33:22.been clear about triggering Article 50. She has spelled-out we will take
:33:23. > :33:30.all existing EU law, get it into the law and decide which bits we want to
:33:31. > :33:34.keep, amend or ditch. I also think a great deal of work has gone on
:33:35. > :33:38.behind the scenes in the new Department for exiting European
:33:39. > :33:40.Union and the Department for International trade. One of the
:33:41. > :33:46.things I'm looking forward to doing is probing a bit deeper. When you
:33:47. > :33:51.launched the campaign to become Tory leader you said "I will end free
:33:52. > :33:57.movement, introduce a points type system for immigration". The
:33:58. > :34:02.government has ruled out a points-based system for EU migrants.
:34:03. > :34:06.No, the Prime Minister has been very clear migration is going to come
:34:07. > :34:09.down. The referendum vote was clearly a boat for controlling the
:34:10. > :34:13.number to come here. The Australian points-based system is merely one
:34:14. > :34:19.way of achieving it. You wouldn't go to the wall on that? Parliament
:34:20. > :34:22.should decide. There's a principle that Maurice Glasman and I are
:34:23. > :34:25.outlining today which is we think there should be a fair migration
:34:26. > :34:30.system which doesn't discriminate between countries. At the moment if
:34:31. > :34:35.you from Bulgaria you've got an advantage over someone who comes
:34:36. > :34:39.from Bangladesh, even if you've got skills from Bangladesh and you're an
:34:40. > :34:43.unskilled worker from Bulgaria. But if the government were to meet its
:34:44. > :34:46.target on immigration in the tens of thousands, fewer people from all
:34:47. > :34:52.over the world would have to come. Fewer people from outside the EU by
:34:53. > :34:56.a huge number and fewer people from within the EU by a huge number.
:34:57. > :35:00.There are two questions there. The first is the absolute level, the
:35:01. > :35:04.numbers. I think the important thing is that whatever the figure,
:35:05. > :35:07.Parliament should decide not an outside body. The second thing is
:35:08. > :35:11.the basis on which we operate. I think the right thing to do is to
:35:12. > :35:16.have a fair policy that doesn't discriminate. You also said the new
:35:17. > :35:20.immigration policy should be based on "The brightest and. Most
:35:21. > :35:28.countries would always want the brightest and the best. Do you
:35:29. > :35:32.accept in a growing economy there is also a need for and skilled
:35:33. > :35:38.migrants? At certain times there can be a requirement for unskilled
:35:39. > :35:43.migrants. As a result of freedom of movement we had far too many people
:35:44. > :35:47.coming here, dispersing the wages of working people. One thing Maurice
:35:48. > :35:49.Glasman and I want to do is talk to working-class communities. There has
:35:50. > :35:54.been a caricature of the view many people have an immigration. The
:35:55. > :35:59.caricature is people want to pull up the drawbridge. They don't. They do
:36:00. > :36:03.want to see the numbers of unskilled people coming here more firmly
:36:04. > :36:08.controlled. But if you want the best and brightest and you still want an
:36:09. > :36:12.element of unskilled migration, I don't understand how you're ever
:36:13. > :36:16.going to hit net migration of 100,000 if that still your target.
:36:17. > :36:21.It's the government 's target. One of the reasons for having this
:36:22. > :36:25.commission, we can ask the public the question where did they think
:36:26. > :36:30.that figure should be pitched. You fought to elections with that in
:36:31. > :36:33.your manifesto. Absolutely. I didn't strongly disagree with it but I do
:36:34. > :36:37.think there was a problem with it. The problem was we could not hit
:36:38. > :36:40.that figure while we were in the European Union. Migration has to
:36:41. > :36:45.come down from the current level it is that if people are going to have
:36:46. > :36:48.confidence that in the future we are making the right decisions about who
:36:49. > :36:56.we let in. But isn't it clear that even outside the EU, given that the
:36:57. > :37:01.total net migration is about 330000 and its split almost even Stevens
:37:02. > :37:07.between EU and non-EU, even outside the EU you're not going to hit
:37:08. > :37:11.100,000. Does not undermine public confidence in our political elite
:37:12. > :37:16.that you've outlined targets you know you're not going to meet, as
:37:17. > :37:21.your government didn't meet for six years. Absolutely. I agree with
:37:22. > :37:26.every word. So the government should not have reiterated 100,000 of the
:37:27. > :37:30.target? No, you cannot meet it while we are in the European Union. You
:37:31. > :37:33.could if we are out. The Prime Minister wants to try to hit that
:37:34. > :37:38.target. I think bringing migration down is a good thing. I also think
:37:39. > :37:42.it's important we listen to the public before arriving at what that
:37:43. > :37:49.target should be. You're going to be on this committee chaired by Hilary
:37:50. > :37:52.Benn, scrutinising the work of the government in the Brexit process.
:37:53. > :38:01.Throughout the referendum campaign, you made it clear that to leave the
:38:02. > :38:04.European Union was also a vote to leave the single market in terms of
:38:05. > :38:10.membership. Not that you wouldn't have access but to leave in terms of
:38:11. > :38:14.being a member. That seems clear to me in everything the government has
:38:15. > :38:17.said. Why won't the government admitted? Why doesn't the government
:38:18. > :38:23.admit we won't be a member of the single market? I made it clear, the
:38:24. > :38:26.remain camp made it clear, everybody made it clear that leaving the EU
:38:27. > :38:31.meant leaving the single market. One of the things about the government's
:38:32. > :38:34.negotiating position is I'm not part of that team, I'm going to be asking
:38:35. > :38:39.those questions and that's one question be putting to David Davis.
:38:40. > :38:45.I've asked them again and again and I can't get an answer. Once Chris
:38:46. > :38:48.Grayling denied to me on the Sunday politics that there was such a thing
:38:49. > :38:52.as membership of the single market. I can't imagine I'll be as good an
:38:53. > :38:57.interrogator as you but I'll try to get to the bottom of it! If you talk
:38:58. > :39:00.about leaving the single market as though it's a punishment, actually
:39:01. > :39:03.it's a liberation. Even in the knowledge that we are almost
:39:04. > :39:07.inevitably going to be leaving the single market, we've had the best
:39:08. > :39:14.news that Sunderland have had since Paolo Di Canio was sacked... Who is
:39:15. > :39:20.he? He was Sunderland's football manager. Sunderland has a football
:39:21. > :39:25.team?! It has a great football team! One other thing about that fate of
:39:26. > :39:30.confidence in Sunderland is that it's taken in the full knowledge
:39:31. > :39:34.will be outside the single market. Given the government's emphasis on
:39:35. > :39:40.having an ability to do our own free trade deals, does not follow
:39:41. > :39:44.automatically that we cannot remain inside the European Customs Union? I
:39:45. > :39:49.think that is, I don't have the same degree of certainty, I think it's
:39:50. > :39:55.pretty clear we should be outside the Customs Union as well, yes. Why
:39:56. > :40:00.doesn't the government guarantee the status of EU citizens already here
:40:01. > :40:05.and their families? Of people from the EU who have come here to work,
:40:06. > :40:09.they brought their families. They could be in the NHS, some of them
:40:10. > :40:15.could be in the Nissan car plant in Sunderland. They are in our fields,
:40:16. > :40:18.factories, helping provide our public services. Instead of making
:40:19. > :40:22.them a bargaining card, why doesn't the government say if you're here,
:40:23. > :40:25.you within the law, you and your family are welcome to stay here for
:40:26. > :40:32.as long as you want. Why doesn't the government do that? I agree with
:40:33. > :40:38.you. That was a question. I'm just making it clear I'm not challenging
:40:39. > :40:42.the proposition or disagreeing. I made that case during my brief
:40:43. > :40:46.ill-fated leadership bid. Why isn't the government saying that? I think
:40:47. > :40:52.the government wants to keep its cards close to its chest. One of the
:40:53. > :40:56.things that I can do as a backbencher is outlined my own
:40:57. > :40:58.views, but I wouldn't want to second-guess every decision the
:40:59. > :41:04.government is going to have to take during the course of these
:41:05. > :41:08.negotiations. It's all very well to save keep the cards close to the
:41:09. > :41:12.chest, People's lives are hanging on this and it's shameful. It really
:41:13. > :41:18.is. They have uncertainty. They don't know what they are doing. They
:41:19. > :41:25.are settled and married. It is just shameful, Michael. I take your
:41:26. > :41:29.point. Do you agree with that? I think it's important to dial down
:41:30. > :41:35.the rhetoric but I agree... The rhetoric gets dialled up because
:41:36. > :41:41.they really frightened. Fed. Angry. I entirely accept there is a range
:41:42. > :41:47.of feelings on this issue. I want to say to the government, when
:41:48. > :41:50.ministers appear in front of the committee, I will ask those
:41:51. > :41:54.questions as well. But my view is similar to yours. I haven't
:41:55. > :42:00.expressed a view, I've asked a question. My view is similar to the
:42:01. > :42:05.one you articulated in the body of the question. Implicit in the
:42:06. > :42:14.question. Finally on this point, isn't it just wrong, not just from a
:42:15. > :42:18.practical point of view but the implication in Margaret's question,
:42:19. > :42:22.from a moral position. It's wrong to make these people who are our
:42:23. > :42:27.friends and neighbours and allies in this country, to make them a
:42:28. > :42:32.bargaining card. Why don't we just do it? Whatever the Europeans do to
:42:33. > :42:35.our expats we can deal with it. Why have these decent hard-working
:42:36. > :42:41.people been made a bargaining card? I can only say that I am in
:42:42. > :42:48.agreement with you on this issue, and indeed have said so. But the
:42:49. > :42:51.government has taken a slightly different position and will have a
:42:52. > :42:55.chance to cross examine them in due course. When you're on this Brexit
:42:56. > :42:59.committee, one of the ministers who will come before it to be
:43:00. > :43:03.interrogated is Boris Johnson, are you looking forward to interviewing
:43:04. > :43:16.him? I always look forward to any encounter with Boris. So that's a
:43:17. > :43:21.yes? It's a yes. I know you've given other interviews on the events of
:43:22. > :43:26.the summer. But as you look back, you must have huge regrets do you
:43:27. > :43:30.not about the course of action you took. I made mistakes. I hope I've
:43:31. > :43:35.been open in acknowledging I've made mistakes. I can look back at each of
:43:36. > :43:40.the individual decisions I made and it seems to me they were right at
:43:41. > :43:43.the time. These mistakes I can learn from. Ultimately, Theresa May is
:43:44. > :43:46.Prime Minister, I think the Conservative Party made the right
:43:47. > :43:53.choice. Boris Johnson is a senior Cabinet minister and I his ability
:43:54. > :43:57.easily entitle him to that job. And I have a job to think, write and
:43:58. > :44:02.operate from the backbenches and I'm enjoying that at the moment. Do you
:44:03. > :44:07.regard joining the Brexit committee, working with Maurice Glasman the
:44:08. > :44:18.Labour peer, being on programmes like this, is this a long march back
:44:19. > :44:23.to re-establishment? No, it's standing up for the things I believe
:44:24. > :44:26.in. In particular, I played a part in the Leave Campaign. I think
:44:27. > :44:31.there's a responsibility on those of who played a big part in that
:44:32. > :44:35.campaign to see it through. I'm not running away from that. I celebrate
:44:36. > :44:40.that decision and I want to make sure it is implemented properly. I'm
:44:41. > :44:43.not in government, that gives me the freedom to make arguments to the
:44:44. > :44:49.government and to the country about how it should be done. I shall watch
:44:50. > :44:54.with interest how you and Maurice go along together. I can't for the life
:44:55. > :44:58.of me see a more odd couple. It strikes me as really strange. The
:44:59. > :45:08.odd couple was a very successful TV show! We make it back to front line
:45:09. > :45:12.politics again? -- will you make it back to front line politics again? I
:45:13. > :45:18.don't know. If Theresa May remains as Prime Minister, I think probably
:45:19. > :45:24.not. All I want to say is it's a privilege to work with Maurice. He
:45:25. > :45:28.is one of the smartest, nicest people in politics. He's one of the
:45:29. > :45:39.few Labour politicians who argued we should leave, and he did so great
:45:40. > :45:47.clarity. I think of it as salt and vinegar, we go well together. Not
:45:48. > :45:49.Marmite and Bovril! Michael, thank you for coming, I hope we'll see you
:45:50. > :45:52.again. It was announced this morning
:45:53. > :46:03.that the by-election in Richmond That means aid this week by election
:46:04. > :46:07.special through the night! Get the coffee on already!
:46:08. > :46:10.It was triggered when Zac Goldsmith quit the Tories to stand
:46:11. > :46:12.as an independent in protest over Heathrow expansion.
:46:13. > :46:15.It looks like it will be a straight fight between Mr Goldsmith
:46:16. > :46:17.and the Lib Dems, as the Tories aren't fielding
:46:18. > :46:20.But it's not just Heathrow that's important in Richmond,
:46:21. > :46:23.nearly 70% of voters in the area voted to stay in the EU.
:46:24. > :46:28.Unlike Zac Goldsmith who voted to leave.
:46:29. > :46:31.So what will the good people of Richmond be voting on -
:46:32. > :46:42.Zac Goldsmith has quit as a Conservative MP
:46:43. > :46:45.here in Richmond to run as an independent MP,
:46:46. > :46:47.furious at the Government's plans to expand Heathrow Airport.
:46:48. > :46:51.He wants the by-election here to be a referendum on that issue,
:46:52. > :46:54.but the Liberal Democrats, who also oppose Heathrow expansion,
:46:55. > :46:57.want the by-election to be about sending a powerful message
:46:58. > :47:02.Don't forget, Zac campaigned to leave the EU.
:47:03. > :47:19.What matters more to you - Heathrow or Brexit -
:47:20. > :47:22.when you come to decide who you're going to vote for?
:47:23. > :47:27.Right now, I would say Brexit.
:47:28. > :47:31.Can you put a ball in my box, please?
:47:32. > :47:35.Otherwise, I'll get a parking ticket.
:47:36. > :47:38.I voted out on Brexit anyway, so it'd be Heathrow.
:47:39. > :47:41.I can't vote but if I could, I certainly would vote for no
:47:42. > :47:58.Breaking news - it's Trevor McDonald.
:47:59. > :48:05.Well, we're not the favourites at the moment but we've only had
:48:06. > :48:07.the by-election announced for less than, or fewer, rather,
:48:08. > :48:09.than 24 hours, so there's still plenty of time.
:48:10. > :48:12.Do you think it's a good time for another election?
:48:13. > :48:16.The reason I chose Brexit is, it's going to have an immediate effect
:48:17. > :48:21.on me, whereas Heathrow I don't think will ever happen.
:48:22. > :48:27.Well, cos I live here and the planes drive me
:48:28. > :48:37.Right now, it seems like Brexit is creeping ahead.
:48:38. > :48:40.Everyone said it's difficult.
:48:41. > :48:46.What was the question - what do I think's more
:48:47. > :49:01.As an individual, yeah, Brexit, definitely.
:49:02. > :49:07.And after a lot of chin scratching here on the streets of Richmond,
:49:08. > :49:09.concern about Heathrow expansion is outweighed
:49:10. > :49:19.And we're joined now by the Conservative peer
:49:20. > :49:25.Nicholas True, who is also the Leader of Richmond Council.
:49:26. > :49:31.Welcome to the programme. Zac Goldsmith says he wants this
:49:32. > :49:34.by-election to be a referendum on Heathrow expansion. Buttoned his
:49:35. > :49:38.main opponent is also going to be against Heathrow expansion, how can
:49:39. > :49:43.it be a referendum? Well, it's a referendum on whether we want to
:49:44. > :49:46.keep our word and the fundamental point is, Zac Goldsmith gave a
:49:47. > :49:50.commitment, a rare thing in a politician, that he would do what
:49:51. > :49:56.he's done, he's kept his promise and we wish to keep him as our MP. But
:49:57. > :50:00.if you have a referendum, as we had on June 23, or in Scotland in
:50:01. > :50:04.September 2014, you get a choice of who you are going to vote for. The
:50:05. > :50:08.two front runners, if they are both in favour of no Heathrow expansion,
:50:09. > :50:14.and you are in favour of it, who do you vote for? You vote for the far
:50:15. > :50:18.more effective, competent unproven spokesman against Heathrow, Zac
:50:19. > :50:24.Goldsmith. But if you are also, as a 70 descent of those in Richmond are,
:50:25. > :50:28.against Brexit, why would you vote for a notorious Euro-sceptic? Zac
:50:29. > :50:33.Goldsmith has been MP since 2010. The question was asked was, what is
:50:34. > :50:37.more important the country? I personally think Brexit is hugely
:50:38. > :50:41.important the country, rather than a mistaken airport decision. The fact
:50:42. > :50:46.is, everybody in Richmond knows and has known for a long time where
:50:47. > :50:49.Goldsmith stands. He's been returned repeatedly. He has a very strong
:50:50. > :50:54.majority, even though it is well known that he's been against the EU.
:50:55. > :50:59.But the issue has become germane now because we voted to leave but your
:51:00. > :51:03.area did not vote to leave, so if you've got two front runners, both
:51:04. > :51:09.of them against Heathrow, which is the mood of the constituency, but
:51:10. > :51:14.one against how we voted on June the 23rd, which is the Lib Dems, which
:51:15. > :51:19.is the mood of your constituency, we've seen from the report, isn't
:51:20. > :51:24.there a danger that he loses? I don't think so. Obviously, he is
:51:25. > :51:28.taking risks. He doesn't need to do this. He's doing this because he
:51:29. > :51:33.thinks he has to a promise. But the real point here is whether this is
:51:34. > :51:38.an election for an MP to go to Westminster. Do you return a proven,
:51:39. > :51:42.well liked, successful MP or send an unknown quantity? We've actually
:51:43. > :51:47.just have a referendum in this country, as you pointed out earlier.
:51:48. > :51:52.35 million people voted and whether it is an unelected peers sitting in
:51:53. > :51:55.this chair or whether it is the leader of the Liberal Democrats
:51:56. > :51:59.saying we could rerun this, the fact is that this by-election would not
:52:00. > :52:05.have any effect on the policy of the country. What is the point of the
:52:06. > :52:10.by-election? Mr Goldsmith was elected twice. He was first elected
:52:11. > :52:16.in 2010, then re-elected in 2015. On both occasions, he made clear his
:52:17. > :52:20.opposition to Heathrow expansion. There was no doubt about that and
:52:21. > :52:25.last time I looked, he is still opposed to it. So what is the
:52:26. > :52:30.point... You've already been elected twice on opposing it, so what's the
:52:31. > :52:34.point of being elected a third time on opposing it? The point is, I'm
:52:35. > :52:39.sure he regrets having made the commitment, part of him, deep down,
:52:40. > :52:43.but he said when he was first adopted as an MP, when he was first
:52:44. > :52:47.elected, the second time he was elected, that if any government took
:52:48. > :52:51.the decision to expand Heathrow, he would force a by-election to enable
:52:52. > :52:54.local people to express their view. It may seem odd and old-fashioned
:52:55. > :52:59.but here is a politician who is keeping a promise he made to his
:53:00. > :53:04.electors and instead of falling down on his head and saying, isn't it
:53:05. > :53:07.ridiculous, for once a politician keeps his promise and one might
:53:08. > :53:10.actually praise that. You seem to imply it is maybe a promise he
:53:11. > :53:14.shouldn't have made since it is clear where he stands and he's been
:53:15. > :53:19.elected twice on it. Do you think he regrets it? I'm sure part of him
:53:20. > :53:23.dusted up who likes fighting an election? Here is a man with a safe
:53:24. > :53:27.seat in Westminster until 2020 but he made a promise and feels he has
:53:28. > :53:31.to do this and I think he should be respected for that. Are the local
:53:32. > :53:37.Tory activist in Richmond happy that there won't be a Tory candidate?
:53:38. > :53:43.Yes. I went to the Executive association yesterday and it was a
:53:44. > :53:48.very clear feeling that we have been delighted with Zac Goldsmith is our
:53:49. > :53:53.MP... So the constituency will be behind Mr Goldsmith? Unquestionably,
:53:54. > :53:57.there will be many Conservatives working for Zac Goldsmith and, I
:53:58. > :54:00.hope, people of other parties. I think it is regrettable that the Lib
:54:01. > :54:04.Dems are dividing the community which needs to be united against
:54:05. > :54:08.immensely powerful interests behind Heathrow. They were hardly going to
:54:09. > :54:12.give you a free one, where they? They used to have that seat and the
:54:13. > :54:16.one next to it so they weren't going to give you a free run. Principle is
:54:17. > :54:19.not the strongest point, I'll give you that. I'm sure in their
:54:20. > :54:23.situation, you would do exactly the same. Lets see what happens on
:54:24. > :54:25.December the 1st. It certainly means a late night for us. Thank you very
:54:26. > :54:27.much. Theresa May's arrival at Number 10
:54:28. > :54:29.was heralded as an end to spin and a return
:54:30. > :54:31.to old-fashioned plain-speaking. But efforts to find out what that
:54:32. > :54:35.means in practice have floundered with the Prime Minister
:54:36. > :54:37.demonstrating a flair for not But she's certainly not the first
:54:38. > :54:48.and surely not the last leader to give evasive responses
:54:49. > :55:00.to specific questions. I was entitled to express my views,
:55:01. > :55:05.I was entitled to be consulted. Did you threaten to overrule him? I did
:55:06. > :55:10.not instruct. Did you believe in old Labour? I believed in the values of
:55:11. > :55:15.the Labour Party. Did you believe in what they stood for? CND, union
:55:16. > :55:21.power not being curtailed? Nationalisation, no privatisation?
:55:22. > :55:26.Did you threaten to overrule him? I did not overrule him. Did you
:55:27. > :55:29.threaten to overrule him? I took advice on what I should do and I
:55:30. > :55:34.acted scrupulously in accordance with bad advice. I want to make sure
:55:35. > :55:37.children have those opportunities, that all schools offer a good
:55:38. > :55:40.education for children. But is not quite an answer about my question on
:55:41. > :55:45.grammar schools. You are not answering the question.
:55:46. > :55:49.Probably important aspect on this, which it is important to bear in
:55:50. > :55:56.mind... I'm going to seem rude, I'm sorry... There is no point in
:55:57. > :56:00.looking at different words. We're not going to give a running
:56:01. > :56:04.commentary. I'm not asking for a running commentary, I'm asking you a
:56:05. > :56:09.rather simple and basic question. That is not a web of an answer to
:56:10. > :56:12.the question of whether you threaten to overrule him.
:56:13. > :56:15.And I'm joined now by Dr Peter Bull from the University of York, who has
:56:16. > :56:18.dug into the science of Theresa May and other leading politicians
:56:19. > :56:22.Welcome to the programme. I understand you've come up with the
:56:23. > :56:26.fact that there are 35 different techniques politicians use to avoid
:56:27. > :56:30.answering the questions. Is that right. Can you give some examples?
:56:31. > :56:34.Yes, I have identified at least 35 different ways of not replying to
:56:35. > :56:40.the question. Common forms include attacking the question, there are
:56:41. > :56:44.lots of ways to do that. It is based on a British you've taken out of
:56:45. > :56:48.context, the quotation is mistaken, it is based on a false
:56:49. > :56:52.presupposition, it is a hypothetical question. I've had all of those,
:56:53. > :56:56.particularly the hypothetical one, because the key question people like
:56:57. > :57:03.me ask is hypothetical - if you do this, what will this follow? But I
:57:04. > :57:06.understand Theresa May has a whole new category of nonspecific
:57:07. > :57:12.responses to specific questions. I think we saw some of that that PMQs
:57:13. > :57:18.yesterday. We certainly did. Most of her none replies to the two
:57:19. > :57:21.interviews with Andrew Marr include this nonspecific response to a
:57:22. > :57:28.specific question. The question, for example, about, would she stop the
:57:29. > :57:33.Scots having a second referendum? When asked that, she actually says,
:57:34. > :57:39."Well, it's not a question of whether they should have another
:57:40. > :57:45.referendum, but there should be another referendum," which is an
:57:46. > :57:48.interesting technique in that it doesn't answer the question but
:57:49. > :57:51.rephrase the question in a way in which she wants to answer it.
:57:52. > :57:56.Liebrich, I know what you are talking about and live with it on a
:57:57. > :57:59.daily basis. Do you have any advice to help me? One of the interesting
:58:00. > :58:07.things to the interviewers is the way they follow evasion and in your
:58:08. > :58:13.opening sequence, you quoted the celebrated sequence where Jeremy
:58:14. > :58:16.Paxman poses the question 16 times but the extent to which you can
:58:17. > :58:20.follow up, draw attention to the evasion and keep following it up,
:58:21. > :58:23.how many times do you follow it up and not get a reply?
:58:24. > :58:25.Thank you for joining us. Fascinating stuff. Good to talk to
:58:26. > :58:28.you. There's just time before we go
:58:29. > :58:31.to find out the answer to our quiz. Who did the Queen mistake
:58:32. > :58:42.Vladimir Putin for during I hope it wasn't Prince Andrew, her
:58:43. > :58:46.son! Hopefully she would recognise her son! She doesn't see him a lot!
:58:47. > :58:48.It wasn't Prince Andrew. I'm going to hazard a guess at your good self.
:58:49. > :58:54.Andrew Marr! That it is. The one o'clock news is starting
:58:55. > :58:57.over on BBC One now. I will be joined by Michael
:58:58. > :58:59.Portillo, Alan Johnson, Digby Jones, Helen Lewis
:59:00. > :59:02.an the Rev Richard Coles