:00:39. > :00:43.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:44. > :00:47.Theresa May meets Barack Obama, Angela Merkel and other European
:00:48. > :00:53.leaders in Berlin for talks on Russia, Isis and trade.
:00:54. > :00:56.Should sanctions against Russia be extended, or now that Donald Trump
:00:57. > :00:59.is moving into the White House, should we follow his lead and
:01:00. > :01:07.Would UK trade be better or worse off if we leave
:01:08. > :01:13.After Boris Johnson says we'll "probably" leave it,
:01:14. > :01:19.And as Barack Obama finishes off his farewell tour of Europe,
:01:20. > :01:28.we'll discuss the President's legacy.
:01:29. > :01:31.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme today,
:01:32. > :01:33.the Guardian's Rafael Behr, and Rachel Sylvester,
:01:34. > :01:42.Now, the Prime Minister is in Berlin today
:01:43. > :01:44.for meetings with Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande
:01:45. > :01:53.They're expected to discuss Donald Trump's election
:01:54. > :02:00.That is fascinating, captivating, and in some cases threatening
:02:01. > :02:02.everybody. For the latest, we're
:02:03. > :02:07.joined from Berlin by our Diplomatic Correspondent,
:02:08. > :02:09.James Landale. James, said the scene for us, what
:02:10. > :02:21.are they hoping to achieve today? This is one of the summits were you
:02:22. > :02:26.can't have a proper conversation, just six people around the table and
:02:27. > :02:33.only one or two officials, so unlike the G20 this is when leaders can't
:02:34. > :02:37.have a proper conversation, they may be addressing the issues like how to
:02:38. > :02:42.counter Islamic terrorism and deal with Syria and obviously Russia and
:02:43. > :02:46.Ukraine yet overlaying this is the election of Donald Trump. This is
:02:47. > :02:50.one of those meetings where it is the first chance for European
:02:51. > :02:55.leaders to have face to based talks and ask how we respond to that. And
:02:56. > :03:00.the underlying tension is that on one hand they want to respond to
:03:01. > :03:04.populist forces and acknowledge them, yet at the same time say, we
:03:05. > :03:09.need to lay down some barriers and some lines in the sand over key
:03:10. > :03:14.foreign policy issues, of which the most important is America's attitude
:03:15. > :03:19.to Russia. So the message we will get today is one saying, sanctions
:03:20. > :03:23.against Russia over Ukraine must be maintained. They come up for renewal
:03:24. > :03:28.next month so I think they'll want to say to the Americans, Europe
:03:29. > :03:30.stands firm on this because one or two European leaders are a bit
:03:31. > :03:34.softer on this for example the Italians so they'll want to get the
:03:35. > :03:39.Italian leader on site to present a united front on that. They'll have a
:03:40. > :03:46.problem because of the changing of the guard in the US. They cannot
:03:47. > :03:51.really determine their future policy towards Russia until they know what
:03:52. > :03:54.Donald Trump's policy will be and I don't think even President Obama can
:03:55. > :04:00.tell that. And on trade it seems quite clear, one thing that they
:04:01. > :04:04.will have been the signing of this duty was the transatlantic trade
:04:05. > :04:10.deal between the EU and the US, it is over, gone, it's not going to
:04:11. > :04:13.happen! On that latter point they will certainly discuss trade, as you
:04:14. > :04:18.say it's very much a holding pattern because they know that deal is
:04:19. > :04:22.pretty much dead now. They are openly acknowledging that. Yet on
:04:23. > :04:25.the Ukraine - Syrian front I think they feel that there's an
:04:26. > :04:30.opportunity here because Donald Trump won't be doing anything until
:04:31. > :04:35.January. They have an opportunity now, window, they think, to lay down
:04:36. > :04:39.some lines and establish some positions so that they at least can
:04:40. > :04:43.say, this is where we are, this is why we think these sanctions need to
:04:44. > :04:47.be maintained, this is why the European Union will have to make a
:04:48. > :04:52.decision next month to formally row over these sanctions. It must happen
:04:53. > :04:57.before Donald Trump becomes president Trump -- roll over. They
:04:58. > :05:00.will have to send a signal to Washington to say, we are united on
:05:01. > :05:05.this and we will stick to it. Whether that affects the way the
:05:06. > :05:11.president elect thinks down the line remains to be seen but they want to
:05:12. > :05:14.present a united front here. I see that our Prime Minister is meeting
:05:15. > :05:19.Angela Merkel. No doubt they will talk more about Brexit. And the
:05:20. > :05:24.German finance minister is still talking about giving Britain a
:05:25. > :05:29.punishment beating in the discussions. Is that mood music
:05:30. > :05:33.because they have to be seen to be tough before the German elections
:05:34. > :05:37.next year, can anything come out of the bilateral between the British
:05:38. > :05:42.Prime Minister and Angela Merkel? I'm expecting no shock news to
:05:43. > :05:47.emerge. They are saying, it's just a meeting we'll have to build as much
:05:48. > :05:50.relation to pursue when the hard talks begin next year and after that
:05:51. > :05:55.you've got a bit of a relationship in the bank. That is what they's
:05:56. > :05:59.meeting is about. In terms terms of their response to the interview by
:06:00. > :06:06.the German finance minister, it is interesting that whenever you try to
:06:07. > :06:10.ask questions of Theresa May on this issue of contributions to EU covers
:06:11. > :06:16.in the future, there is silence. Absolutely nothing said about this.
:06:17. > :06:19.Because what a lot of Tory MPs think is, because there's now more and
:06:20. > :06:23.more talk of a transmission period after the divorce and before we
:06:24. > :06:28.establish what our future relationship with the EU will be,
:06:29. > :06:32.during that transition period there is a belief that contributions to
:06:33. > :06:36.the EU will have to be one of those issues on the table. That is why
:06:37. > :06:41.they think Downing Street is silent on that. That's why they has not
:06:42. > :06:45.been a negative violent response to it because the idea of contributions
:06:46. > :06:50.might have to be sold to the British at some stage so I don't think they
:06:51. > :06:52.will find it helpful if the German finance minister raises it now.
:06:53. > :07:02.James, thank you very much. The government is criticised widely
:07:03. > :07:07.for being very elliptical and vague as to what its negotiating position
:07:08. > :07:11.is. I wonder, as we listen to James, does it matter? The French elections
:07:12. > :07:17.are coming up in April, May, there is an Italian referendum before that
:07:18. > :07:21.which could start a new ball game more important than Brexit and
:07:22. > :07:25.German elections next September. You feel nothing much can happen until
:07:26. > :07:32.that is resolved. It feels like leaders in limbo, Tony Blair said
:07:33. > :07:38.the kaleidoscope has been shaken and we don't yet know how the pieces
:07:39. > :07:42.will land, some are in place but you have a president Obama who will not
:07:43. > :07:47.be in power in summer months and we don't know exactly what President
:07:48. > :07:51.Trump thinks. Elections coming up in other European countries. Brexit yet
:07:52. > :07:58.to be determined. Britain itself in limbo. So it's difficult to know how
:07:59. > :08:02.these things will shape up in the end. One interesting thing I learned
:08:03. > :08:06.this week was that people who had worked on David Cameron 's team and
:08:07. > :08:10.supported him through the Remain campaign have advised Theresa May
:08:11. > :08:15.and her team to hold their nerve on this position of simply saying
:08:16. > :08:19.Brexit means Brexit. They feel they walked into that trap and they did
:08:20. > :08:24.give a running commentary, there were clear about some of the things
:08:25. > :08:27.they wanted and that simply invited every sceptic from left or right to
:08:28. > :08:31.say, you will never get that, you said you wanted that and you've only
:08:32. > :08:35.got theirs. It will make it much harder to sell any final arrangement
:08:36. > :08:41.to the public. So there's a good reason to say, we aren't just going
:08:42. > :08:46.to hand over these hostages to fortune. The problem you get is that
:08:47. > :08:50.Theresa May's position is reduced to, just trust me and give me
:08:51. > :08:55.maximum benefit of the doubt. In the current climate no one is giving
:08:56. > :09:00.politicians the benefit of the.! I wonder where this will end, will it
:09:01. > :09:03.increase pressure on her to say, I need my own mandate? I don't think
:09:04. > :09:07.there is pressure on her to call an election but if she wants to say
:09:08. > :09:12.just let me get on with it, don't ask questions, can she do that
:09:13. > :09:16.without a mandate of her own? Leaders in limbo, a perfect
:09:17. > :09:19.description of where we are at the moment, she has created a vacuum,
:09:20. > :09:28.and from the Marmite story to so-called Deloitte report story,
:09:29. > :09:34.others, not with her best interests at heart, filling the vacuum. The
:09:35. > :09:40.first rule of politics, if there is a vacuum others will step in. Nigel
:09:41. > :09:46.Farage rushing straight to Mr Trump, photographed in a selfie. In a gold
:09:47. > :09:51.elevator, do you have one? In Hackney, we don't have gold elevator
:09:52. > :09:54.is, funnily enough! In cases like this people will fill the gaps that
:09:55. > :09:58.she leaves and does not fill herself. There is always time for
:09:59. > :10:01.our daily quiz. The question for today
:10:02. > :10:04.is which of Jeremy Corbyn's possessions is currently
:10:05. > :10:05.being auctioned off for charity Is it a) His prize marrow b)
:10:06. > :10:08.His favourite tracksuit c) His bicycle or d)
:10:09. > :10:11.A signed pair of his shoes? At the end of the show Rafael
:10:12. > :10:25.and Rachel will give That sounds like an Italian
:10:26. > :10:29.restaurant, Rafael and Rachel. Future career options if the world
:10:30. > :10:30.really falls apart. Or a hairdressers.
:10:31. > :10:33.So, will Donald Trump's election herald a new era in relations
:10:34. > :10:37.And is that desirable, given Russia's activities in Ukraine
:10:38. > :10:41.Here's a reminder of what's been happening.
:10:42. > :10:47.In 2014, pro-Russian separatists, allegedly with the help
:10:48. > :10:49.of Russian special forces, and others, took control of Crimea
:10:50. > :10:52.The Ukrainian government, and many world leaders, think this
:10:53. > :10:54.was an illegal annexation - but Russia disputes this.
:10:55. > :10:57.In response, the EU, the US and others introduced a range
:10:58. > :11:07.of sanctions against Russia, including travel bans and asset
:11:08. > :11:09.freezes on individuals and restrictions on the country's
:11:10. > :11:19.In 2015, Russia began its major military intervention in Syria.
:11:20. > :11:21.International observers have accused Russian war planes of bombing
:11:22. > :11:24.hospitals and killing thousands of civilians - but Russia says
:11:25. > :11:29.And last month, the US government formally accused Russia of hacking
:11:30. > :11:31.the Democratic Party's emails and trying to "interfere"
:11:32. > :11:38.But President-elect Donald Trump has signalled that he wants a less
:11:39. > :11:43.confrontational relationship with the Russian president
:11:44. > :11:49.Vladimir Putin - so what will the future relationship be?
:11:50. > :11:55.Vladimir Putin has welcomed the statement from Mr Trump. It is hard
:11:56. > :11:56.to tell what the future relationship will be.
:11:57. > :11:58.Well, joining me now is Alexander Nekrassov, a former
:11:59. > :12:08.Welcome to the programme. Is it your feeling that the victory of Mr Trump
:12:09. > :12:15.is the start of a new relationship for Russia and America? It will be a
:12:16. > :12:20.change, that is for sure row because under Obama it was a disaster. He
:12:21. > :12:25.did not really have a foreign policy towards Russia. I think that the way
:12:26. > :12:31.America handled the situation in Ukraine, when you started explaining
:12:32. > :12:40.what happened in Ukraine, you forgot one little matter. Just one, but a
:12:41. > :12:44.crucial one. The armed coup in Kiev which overthrew the legitimate
:12:45. > :12:49.government. That is what the Kremlin calls it. You've made your point and
:12:50. > :12:55.I won't argue with that, it is not how many others see it. What I am
:12:56. > :13:00.trying to get, because one thing we know about Mr Trump is that he is a
:13:01. > :13:03.bit of a ricochet. One moment he could take one position and suddenly
:13:04. > :13:11.he's at the opposite end of the position. How consistent do you
:13:12. > :13:18.think Mr Trump will be in relations with the Kremlin or how soon before
:13:19. > :13:21.they have a bad falling out? First of all if you look at the position
:13:22. > :13:25.of Western governments at the moment, the British government, the
:13:26. > :13:29.French government, their position changes every day. We have Boris
:13:30. > :13:38.Johnson saying one thing one day, and another thing another day.
:13:39. > :13:44.Towards Russia? Towards everything! File has our position changed
:13:45. > :13:50.towards Russia in the past 24 hours? -- how has it changed? Boris Johnson
:13:51. > :13:54.said that Britain has to deal with Russia and talk with Roger and then
:13:55. > :13:57.he suddenly changed and said that there should be a no-fly zone and
:13:58. > :14:03.all of that. So that changes practically all the time -- deal
:14:04. > :14:09.with Russia and talk with Russia. You could want a no fly zone and
:14:10. > :14:15.still be prepared to talk. We always talk to Russia. A no-fly zone is war
:14:16. > :14:24.with Russia. Let me get that right, a no-fly zone... Over Syria. Or even
:14:25. > :14:34.over part of a leper, that means war with Russia? - Even over part of
:14:35. > :14:39.Aleppo. When you hear those statements, you don't really know
:14:40. > :14:44.how to respond to them. When I listen to Theresa May's speech in
:14:45. > :14:49.the Guildhall, I could feel that was a vacuum, they don't really know how
:14:50. > :14:53.to... What I am still trying to grasp because it is important in
:14:54. > :15:01.Europe to see if there is real substance to a rapprochement between
:15:02. > :15:05.the Kremlin and the White House, if there is one, what would it be and
:15:06. > :15:11.what should Europe do? These are the big questions we are trying to
:15:12. > :15:16.resolve. We should first conclude that if the American voters said No
:15:17. > :15:22.to Hillary Clinton and to Obama, it means they will not support the
:15:23. > :15:28.anti-Russian position of that administration. That comes out of
:15:29. > :15:31.the vote. Having been there to cover the election I can assure you that
:15:32. > :15:37.attitudes towards Russia were not uppermost in the minds of the
:15:38. > :15:41.voters. I'm still trying to get you to address, I don't want to go back
:15:42. > :15:45.to Ohio and Pennsylvania and the way people voted, I want to go forward,
:15:46. > :15:52.I am trying to find out what the shape of a possible rapprochement
:15:53. > :15:55.would be between Vladimir Putin's Kremlin and Donald Trump's White
:15:56. > :16:00.House because following that Europe would have to make its dispositions.
:16:01. > :16:05.Would Europe at the moment is behaving in a strange way. Answer
:16:06. > :16:09.the questions about America You cannot ask me to answer a question
:16:10. > :16:14.without giving a background. You want me to what, to say things are
:16:15. > :16:18.going to change with Trump a Russia and America are going to fall in
:16:19. > :16:22.love with each other. I'm just trying to find out. Of course not.
:16:23. > :16:27.Tell me what they will be like. There are powerful forces in America
:16:28. > :16:31.n Britain which do not want, that which are blocking that. So, of
:16:32. > :16:35.course there will be compromises, there will be flexibility. Nobody
:16:36. > :16:40.yet knows what is going to happen. What I started to say is that
:16:41. > :16:44.Europe, already, is trying to create a certain anti-Russian situation,
:16:45. > :16:50.even more Trump goes into office. That meeting that we saw in your
:16:51. > :16:56.report before, they are already discussing how to be anti-Russian,
:16:57. > :16:59.how to put pressure on Russia, even though Obama at the table is a
:17:00. > :17:07.nobody. He doesn't decide anything. All right. Do you buy this
:17:08. > :17:12.reproachment? I think there is a strange obsession among certain male
:17:13. > :17:15.leaders, a strong man, if you like, I remember interviewing Bernie
:17:16. > :17:23.Ecclestone once, he said - Hitler go the things done. It is that thing
:17:24. > :17:31.amongst politicians and people... He made the trains run on time. There
:17:32. > :17:34.is a fetishisation of the strong man in politics, which Vladimir Putin is
:17:35. > :17:38.an example. And Nigel Farage has talked the of
:17:39. > :17:45.one. I'm not sure it is to do with Russia, it is almost an infatation
:17:46. > :17:49.with Putin and the strength of him but nothing has changed with the
:17:50. > :17:53.Kremlin and the situation in the Ukraine. Nothing significant has
:17:54. > :17:59.changed. It is, clear, though, in Syria - I say clear now, it may not
:18:00. > :18:03.be in two months months' time - Mr Trump's general view in Syria is
:18:04. > :18:12.really to let the Russians get on with it, with the Syrians, to beat
:18:13. > :18:15.off the rebels that the West has been supporting, get rid of them,
:18:16. > :18:21.then in the hope that Syria and Russia turn on Islamic state. That's
:18:22. > :18:24.Mr Trump's view of Syria. You correctly pointed out
:18:25. > :18:28.inconsistencies in the Trump position, one broad consistent
:18:29. > :18:32.aspects of his temperament, his position, the idea is he likes to
:18:33. > :18:36.cut a deal and one of the things that is Liberal opinion and opinion
:18:37. > :18:43.in the European Union is worried about that he will bring a by
:18:44. > :18:49.lateral Real poll teak approach to these things at the expense of rule
:18:50. > :18:55.space, multilateral governance that has operated since 1945. That system
:18:56. > :18:59.has failed in Syria. So there will be an appetite for the American
:19:00. > :19:04.president who will ignore that and cut deals by laterally. I think
:19:05. > :19:08.where that is a problem with Russia is the Russian strategic position
:19:09. > :19:12.underpinning the uncertainty, is the sense of what they call the
:19:13. > :19:18.neoabroad, the cops aft Soviet Union, it is seen as more ambiguous
:19:19. > :19:21.of what Russia's influence in what are Sovereign countries than a lot
:19:22. > :19:29.of people in the West would necessarily think. So the idea you
:19:30. > :19:34.accept the annexation of Crimea as a fait accompli or the way you border
:19:35. > :19:37.the boundaries of other states, it is not clear what Trump's position
:19:38. > :19:41.is. The things going rather well for Russia at the moment. You have got
:19:42. > :19:48.your way, Mr Trump has won in America. You helped reveal all the
:19:49. > :19:53.e-mails from the Democrats. There is really no Western response now in
:19:54. > :19:59.Syria. You have got your way there. People are uncertain what a Nato
:20:00. > :20:02.response would be on the eastern borders of Europe and there is a
:20:03. > :20:07.Russian loan helping to bankroll Marine Le Pen's campaign in France,
:20:08. > :20:12.which would also help. It all adds to the destablisation of Europe,
:20:13. > :20:17.which is one of Russia's aims? Well, Russia does not need to unstable
:20:18. > :20:22.Europe, because that is a danger to Russia, so I don't be scrubbed stand
:20:23. > :20:26.those arguments. I also -- so I don't understand those arguments. I
:20:27. > :20:29.find it bizarre, that we had a situation, where Russia was accused
:20:30. > :20:33.of helping Brexit to win... I didn't mention that I'm mentioning it,
:20:34. > :20:40.because it is on the table. Maybe I missed that one out And, of course,
:20:41. > :20:45.the bizarre, bizarre idea that Russia could actually influence
:20:46. > :20:49.American elections by supposedly, you know hacking into a Democratic
:20:50. > :20:56.website. Tried to, whether you did or not is another matter Well, it
:20:57. > :20:58.does sound a bit Harry porterish. The American intelligence agencies
:20:59. > :21:04.came to the same conclusion. They hardly ever agree. They didn't
:21:05. > :21:08.provide any proof. They just said - we have something, but we don't have
:21:09. > :21:12.T as regards Syria you are saying Russia is doing what it wants in
:21:13. > :21:16.Syria, no it doesn't. Unfortunately the arms and munitions are coming to
:21:17. > :21:20.the rebels in eastern Aleppo. And if they didn't have that support, they
:21:21. > :21:25.would have been wiped out a long time ago. The problem is, that it is
:21:26. > :21:29.a hostage situation. They are holding hostages people, and the
:21:30. > :21:33.Russian corridors when they opened several times now, nobody goes down
:21:34. > :21:38.them because these rebelses are not allowing people to leave. So that
:21:39. > :21:42.situation continues because of the support for these rebels from
:21:43. > :21:46.outside. All right. We'll have to leave it there. A big subject. A
:21:47. > :21:50.developing story. Will you come back and talk to us again on this? Of
:21:51. > :22:00.course, with pleasure. Since the EU referendum we've heard
:22:01. > :22:03.a lot about whether we should remain in the Single Market once we've
:22:04. > :22:05.left the EU. But not so much has been said
:22:06. > :22:08.about another EU arrangement -- The question of whether we should
:22:09. > :22:17.remain in or out of the Customs Union was raised by Boris Johnson
:22:18. > :22:24.earlier this week, when he told Czech journalists the UK
:22:25. > :22:30.is "probably" going to leave. But what exactly
:22:31. > :22:43.is the Customs Union? As a member of the EU customs union,
:22:44. > :22:48.the you UK gets shiny German cars, tariff-free. Britain resip skates
:22:49. > :22:51.with goods, including these London-made bicycles, which are
:22:52. > :22:56.cheaper to buy in other countries right now, thanks to the weak pound
:22:57. > :22:59.this. Company's CEO welcomes how the customs union gives customers the
:23:00. > :23:05.confidence they are getting, a fair price, wherever they are in the EU.
:23:06. > :23:11.Having consistency of how we approach imports and taxes is right
:23:12. > :23:14.for the consumer. The product standards here, assessed and
:23:15. > :23:19.regulated by the EU. They are an essential part of being in the
:23:20. > :23:26.customs union but when these bikes are sold to countries outside the
:23:27. > :23:31.union, it is more complicated Every part, every light, wheel has a
:23:32. > :23:35.different code. You have to go through the book, define the code so
:23:36. > :23:38.when it goes through customs they can apportion the right income duty
:23:39. > :23:41.for that little koe.d it is all doable but it adds more time,
:23:42. > :23:45.energy, somebody has to do t sometimes they get in a muddle then
:23:46. > :23:50.we have to ring it up and tell them why they have got it wrong. What
:23:51. > :23:54.would be the cost of doing business with EU countries if Britain were to
:23:55. > :24:00.leave The average trade weighted bound Taif as it is called is about
:24:01. > :24:05.3%, so fairly low. The cost of supplying with regulatory measures
:24:06. > :24:10.can be anything up to 20%. The tariff equivalent, when the UK
:24:11. > :24:14.leaves the EU, there will be a divergence and so the costs of
:24:15. > :24:19.complying with these regulatory provisions will increase. But
:24:20. > :24:23.thereby benefits from leaving the customs union, too. What are the
:24:24. > :24:27.UK's options? It could stay in the single market, but it won't have
:24:28. > :24:31.taken control of immigration T could leave the single market but stay in
:24:32. > :24:35.the customs union but it won't have taken control of trade policy T
:24:36. > :24:40.could have free trade agreements instead but loose the benefits of a
:24:41. > :24:43.customs union or it could rely on the World Trade Organisation's terms
:24:44. > :24:47.and get lumbered with mortar I haves. Foreign Secretary, Boris
:24:48. > :24:50.Johnson, told a Czech newspaper this week, the UK would probably have to
:24:51. > :24:54.leave the customs union. The Prime Minister said sheent made a decision
:24:55. > :24:59.about it and confused many by saying it was not a binary decision, though
:25:00. > :25:04.did not elaborate. So, if Boris Johnson is right, how could free
:25:05. > :25:10.trade agreements work? Most free trade agreements, these days, remove
:25:11. > :25:14.up to 98% of tariffs. A free trade agreement can also include mutual
:25:15. > :25:21.recognition agreement but in certain sectors, so he can have a mutual
:25:22. > :25:25.recognition agreement in cars, the EU Korea agreement includes a mutual
:25:26. > :25:30.recognition agreement in cars, so European cars can be sold in Korea
:25:31. > :25:36.and Korean cars can be sold in the EU. This company sells 44,000 bikes
:25:37. > :25:41.a year, many to the UK but of its exports, half go to Asia. One-third
:25:42. > :25:47.to the EU and just under one-fifth to America. But, and let's ask its
:25:48. > :25:52.CEO, how would leaving a customs union affect your business? I think,
:25:53. > :26:00.in fact, Europe will stay together. So, we will still have the advantage
:26:01. > :26:03.of whatever is that trade deal we have across Europe with 26 countries
:26:04. > :26:09.but we are not a as powerful because we are not part of that European
:26:10. > :26:14.bloc. Is there any market you are looking forward to negotiating with,
:26:15. > :26:18.were the UK to leave? We have free trade agreement with South Korea and
:26:19. > :26:24.Japan isn't far behind but divoent have a free trade agreement with
:26:25. > :26:28.Japan T would be great if both these countries had a free trade
:26:29. > :26:42.agreement. It confuses the consumer because one has a hire import duty.
:26:43. > :26:51.The fate of the factory floor lies in the hands of the politician s.
:26:52. > :26:54.And joining me now from our Shrewsbury studio is the former
:26:55. > :26:58.Conservative cabinet minister and Leave campaigner, Owen Paterson.
:26:59. > :27:08.The Prime Minister said at PMG membership of the customs union is
:27:09. > :27:11.not a banery decision, ie not an either-or? Do you understand what
:27:12. > :27:17.the Prime Minister means? Think she is being canny and in the revealing
:27:18. > :27:21.her hand. What came out of that clip t didn't really emerge, is that the
:27:22. > :27:25.customs union sets up a tariff role around Europe, sets up a fortress. I
:27:26. > :27:28.said that. It prevents British consumers and industries, so the
:27:29. > :27:31.manufacturing company I'm talking about, could probably buy raw
:27:32. > :27:35.materials cheaper outside the customs union, so I'm quite clear we
:27:36. > :27:42.would benefit immediately on a domestic market by leaving but also,
:27:43. > :27:47.very importantly, we get our full rollback on the WTO where we can
:27:48. > :27:54.negotiate deals pain we can ensure that world regulation, which is
:27:55. > :27:57.incredibly -- and where we can ensure that world regulation is
:27:58. > :28:00.negotiated. It could work to our advantage. I understand your case
:28:01. > :28:04.for leaving the customs union, I will come on to that in a minute,
:28:05. > :28:08.that wasn't my question. My question was the Prime Minister's description
:28:09. > :28:14.of being in or out of the customs union is not a binary decision. It
:28:15. > :28:17.is not an either-or. I I don't quite understand that. I'm asking you if
:28:18. > :28:23.you understand that, what she means by that? Well, sadly, Andrew, I
:28:24. > :28:26.missed PMQs this week as well, I didn't see the circumstances in
:28:27. > :28:30.which that question was put... I told you what she said she said it
:28:31. > :28:34.is not a binary decision Well, put the question to her, I was not
:28:35. > :28:40.there. So you don't understand it either No. As far as I'm concerned
:28:41. > :28:43.we voted to leave the European Union, that means leaving the
:28:44. > :28:50.customs union because if you stay in, you might as well remain until
:28:51. > :28:54.the whole thing altogether. I also think there is this woolliness about
:28:55. > :28:57.what the single market s but I think we would be better off... Let's
:28:58. > :29:02.leave the single market this morning. We have done a will the but
:29:03. > :29:06.this is thanks to Boris Johnson, the customs union, at least for the last
:29:07. > :29:09.48 hours or so has taken centre stage. Do you accept that if you
:29:10. > :29:13.remain in the customs union, that you cannot, the United Kingdom
:29:14. > :29:24.cannot do its own free trade deals with other countries. No, it can't
:29:25. > :29:28.because we have agreed to pull the negotiating power to the EU which
:29:29. > :29:35.negotiates trade and actually does it very badly. I remember going when
:29:36. > :29:37.I was in DEFRA, grinding on with the United States, meeting the trade
:29:38. > :29:42.agricultural secretary, with him I agreed on a lot of issues where we
:29:43. > :29:48.could do a deal but the EU limps along as slow as the lamest donkey
:29:49. > :29:53.in the caravan. The time I was there the row was about the Greek
:29:54. > :29:58.definition of feta, and this 3 billion deal held up with the
:29:59. > :30:02.definition of Greek cheese I'm clear at the moment we are not allowed to
:30:03. > :30:06.negotiate trade deals and one of the hugep advantages if we left, is we
:30:07. > :30:10.could. If we stayed in the customs' union, to get this clear, there is
:30:11. > :30:15.talk about the transition team at the moment, among those close to Mr
:30:16. > :30:18.Trump, that they may want to begin negotiations with Britain on a free
:30:19. > :30:21.trade deal. They know they cannot complete one until we have left, but
:30:22. > :30:26.they could begin talking about T you are clear, that if we were to stay
:30:27. > :30:29.in the customs union, that is a job for the EU, we wouldn't be able to
:30:30. > :30:44.do that ourselves? It was encouraging, I thought what
:30:45. > :30:49.the Trump team said, rather than what Obama said about Britain being
:30:50. > :30:52.at the back of the queue, or the back of the line, we can immediately
:30:53. > :30:56.negotiate with them in an open manner which would be great. The
:30:57. > :31:00.Prime Minister was in India last week going back to the land of your
:31:01. > :31:10.fathers, there are huge opportunities selling whiskey to
:31:11. > :31:14.India, when I was in Defra there were enormous duties and we
:31:15. > :31:18.calculated that if we got them down to the December said there wouldn't
:31:19. > :31:21.be enough whiskey in Scotland to supply discerning Indian consumers.
:31:22. > :31:27.So that our massive opportunities outside but remember our trade with
:31:28. > :31:33.the EU has declined, it's forecast to go down to 35%. So we already do
:31:34. > :31:38.the vast majority of our trade around the world, outside the
:31:39. > :31:42.customs union, mainly on World Trade Organisation terms. It does seem
:31:43. > :31:49.that in some ways you can be a half- pregnant when it comes to the
:31:50. > :31:52.Customs Union! This is the possibility of doing deals sector by
:31:53. > :31:56.sector so that in some sectors we would remain in the customs union
:31:57. > :32:02.and in others we would not and that would leave us free to do our own
:32:03. > :32:05.free trade deals. Turkey has an arrangement like that, two others do
:32:06. > :32:13.although they are not huge global players in trade, Andorra and San
:32:14. > :32:17.Marino. Perhaps that is what the Prime Minister means by "It's not
:32:18. > :32:22.binary". Maybe she means that we could have one foot still in the
:32:23. > :32:28.customs union? You make a very good point about deals, by sector, if you
:32:29. > :32:32.took pharmaceuticals that our massive savings to consumers if we
:32:33. > :32:36.could coordinate our regulation of pharmaceutical products. There was a
:32:37. > :32:41.move last year to coordinate an tyres which was scuppered by the
:32:42. > :32:45.Americans. You are right, there are possibilities around the world to do
:32:46. > :32:51.deals by sector. It would be so much better, however, if we were in the
:32:52. > :32:56.driving seat and working with like-minded allies as I said before
:32:57. > :33:00.on the World Trade Organisation. Thank you, Owen Paterson. We will
:33:01. > :33:04.see how this develops. It's very complicated. Your brain begins to
:33:05. > :33:12.Fussell at the idea of deals sector by sector! -- it begins to frazzle.
:33:13. > :33:17.Turkey has such an arrangement, I think it is uncertain manufactured
:33:18. > :33:21.goods but I don't think Andorra and San Marino can really be Avatars for
:33:22. > :33:27.the way Britain is going. To throw in another metaphor I spoke to a
:33:28. > :33:31.cabinet minister who said you cannot have your cake and eat it but you
:33:32. > :33:36.can cut the cake in different ways. So that's one way of thinking of it,
:33:37. > :33:39.you might not want the entire customs union with all the
:33:40. > :33:43.regulations which would have to be governed by the European Court, plus
:33:44. > :33:48.the tariff arrangements but you could come to arrangements either on
:33:49. > :33:51.particular industries or particular products with the EU and that would
:33:52. > :33:56.leave you free to do deals with other countries. You do wonder what
:33:57. > :34:01.would be the point of Liam Fox travelling the world saying we are
:34:02. > :34:06.ready to do trade deals, get ready, if, in the end we were to stay in
:34:07. > :34:09.the customs union? Switzerland is not in the customs union and has
:34:10. > :34:15.three times as many trade deals as the EU. That is what Liam Fox and Mr
:34:16. > :34:19.Johnson one. You get a strong impression around Westminster that
:34:20. > :34:27.what we you must this deplete call friends of Liam Fox -- what we call
:34:28. > :34:30.friends of Liam Fox, a euphemism, that they are agitating on his
:34:31. > :34:36.behalf and actually he doesn't have a job and needed to be given this
:34:37. > :34:40.position in the government by the hard Brexiteers, as we have come to
:34:41. > :34:43.call them, so that they would be represented around the Cabinet
:34:44. > :34:49.table. Actually he's twiddling his thumbs while this is decided. To go
:34:50. > :34:52.back to what Rachel was saying, the prospect of this sector by sector
:34:53. > :35:00.process of dismantling bits of the customs union, the hazard is that it
:35:01. > :35:05.becomes a lobbyist 's dream. We don't know what conversations were
:35:06. > :35:08.had between No 10 and Nissan, saying, Sunderland is important,
:35:09. > :35:14.that is where they make cars, we must protect you. That sends a
:35:15. > :35:18.signal to every industry, form an orderly queue, demonstrate what you
:35:19. > :35:23.can do for the UK economy, present us with your demands and we will see
:35:24. > :35:27.what we can do. It's not very transparent, nor is it necessarily
:35:28. > :35:32.regaining control in the way that the original Brexit proposition was
:35:33. > :35:35.offered. Speaking of Europe, we had some developments. We've just heard
:35:36. > :35:39.from the Supreme Court. The High Court ruled against the government,
:35:40. > :35:45.and in favour of the petitioners that Parliament needed to have a say
:35:46. > :35:50.in the triggering of Article 50. The government has appealed and that is
:35:51. > :35:53.now going to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has confirmed that
:35:54. > :35:58.applications to intervene in this case have been granted to the lord
:35:59. > :36:02.advocate in the Scottish Government, so that's the Scottish Government
:36:03. > :36:08.now involved, the council general for Wales is another Welch
:36:09. > :36:11.government will be involved, the expat interveners, someone called
:36:12. > :36:14.George Clooney and others will be alleged to have a say, and the
:36:15. > :36:19.independent workers union of Great Britain. -- they will be allowed to
:36:20. > :36:23.have a say. And to a lesser extent but still to some degree, the
:36:24. > :36:27.Supreme Court has said that the Attorney General for Northern
:36:28. > :36:32.Ireland will be able to have some sort of intervention as well in
:36:33. > :36:37.this. I'm not quite sure what the legal implications of this are. It
:36:38. > :36:38.suggests that it would be a very quick decision if everyone has their
:36:39. > :36:41.say. Anyway. Next Wednesday the Chancellor,
:36:42. > :36:44.Philip Hammond, will get to his feet in the House of Commons
:36:45. > :36:46.to deliver his first We'll have live coverage
:36:47. > :36:52.here on BBC Two from 11.30. It's not a full budget,
:36:53. > :36:54.we'll have to wait until March for that,
:36:55. > :36:57.but that hasn't deterred MPs from all parties from
:36:58. > :36:58.lobbying the Chancellor. Last night the Shadow Chancellor,
:36:59. > :37:02.John McDonnell, staged a protest in central London demanding
:37:03. > :37:05.Philip Hammond abandon planned cuts to the Employment
:37:06. > :37:11.and Support Allowance. ESA replaced Incapacity Benefit
:37:12. > :37:14.and is paid to people who are having difficulty finding a job
:37:15. > :37:17.because of a long-term The issue was discussed in the House
:37:18. > :37:24.of Commons yesterday after the SNP secured parliamentary
:37:25. > :37:26.time for a backbench debate. From April 2017 new Employment
:37:27. > :37:39.Support Allowance claimants who are placed in the work-related
:37:40. > :37:41.activity group, will receive ?29.05 less than current ESA
:37:42. > :37:44.WRAG claimants do. During the passage of
:37:45. > :37:58.the Welfare Reform and Work Act, which legislated for this
:37:59. > :37:59.cut, the Government "New funding for additional support
:38:00. > :38:03.to help claimants return to work." This afternoon I intend to set out
:38:04. > :38:06.why, in this context the Government should use the opportunity
:38:07. > :38:08.of the Autumn Statement, a new Prime Minister,
:38:09. > :38:11.a new Chancellor, a new set of DWP ministers to pause the cut to
:38:12. > :38:14.the ESA WRAG and the corresponding Universal Credit work
:38:15. > :38:16.allowance elements - at least until the new system
:38:17. > :38:18.they are to propose has been always listen to the loudest voice
:38:19. > :38:23.in your head. You might try to drown it out
:38:24. > :38:27.with distractions or other In fact you can sometimes see it
:38:28. > :38:33.when you look in the mirror. I think we all know
:38:34. > :38:36.what that voice is saying - The ?30, ?30 - represents 29%
:38:37. > :38:46.of the weekly income It's big money for
:38:47. > :38:50.relatively few people. What kind of a Government
:38:51. > :39:06.do we want to be? Good policy cannot be created
:39:07. > :39:08.in a vacuum. We must also think about how
:39:09. > :39:11.something will be delivered, how it will work in practice and how
:39:12. > :39:22.it will affect a person concerned and as the honourable lady
:39:23. > :39:24.for Neath said "The welfare but if it works well,
:39:25. > :39:28.it should also be focussed in helping someone's
:39:29. > :39:29.ambitions in the future Proof we have listened
:39:30. > :39:34.and understood will be in our actions and a person's
:39:35. > :39:36.experience of the system and the support they receive,
:39:37. > :39:39.is the only thing that will assure So, we must deliver
:39:40. > :39:46.and we must deliver well. So, I have no intention
:39:47. > :39:51.of pausing our proposed support coming into effect in April,
:39:52. > :39:54.but I will assure this House that the work that we are doing
:39:55. > :39:57.and the announcements that we have made and reiterated again today,
:39:58. > :40:03.will meet that need. The Shadow Work and
:40:04. > :40:15.Pensions Secretary, I know you have to dash back to the
:40:16. > :40:21.House. The government 's position, as I understand it, is that if
:40:22. > :40:24.someone on ESA is assessed to be capable of work, then they are in
:40:25. > :40:27.the same position as a job-seeker and should be on jobseeker's
:40:28. > :40:34.allowance. What is wrong with that argument? That is incorrect, they
:40:35. > :40:38.have gone through the very flawed work capability assessment which the
:40:39. > :40:41.government themselves have accepted is not fit for purpose and they have
:40:42. > :40:45.been found not fit for work although they may be in the future and they
:40:46. > :40:52.are then put in the work-related activity group. And it is that half
:40:53. > :40:56.million people who will have about ?1500 a year taken from them and
:40:57. > :41:04.support. That is because they would move from ESA to jobseeker's
:41:05. > :41:07.allowance, which is lower? No, they are already in the work-related
:41:08. > :41:11.activity group. They are not fit for work although they may be in the
:41:12. > :41:15.future, they have been put the equivalent of job-seeker allowance
:41:16. > :41:20.rate. The evidence is, Andrew, that this counter-productive. One of our
:41:21. > :41:30.arguments against what the government is doing is their own
:41:31. > :41:35.research as well as a good report by Lord Lowe showing it is less likely
:41:36. > :41:41.to help people into work, making these cuts. What sort of work
:41:42. > :41:45.capability test would you have? What we have at the moment is assessing
:41:46. > :41:50.eligibility for Social Security support. We think that is the wrong
:41:51. > :41:53.way of doing it. We would like a more personalised, more holistic
:41:54. > :41:59.approach which looks at somebody's needs overall. Certainly out whether
:42:00. > :42:04.there are skills related shortages, whether there are health and her
:42:05. > :42:09.concerns, if they have housing issues, gain the Secretary of State
:42:10. > :42:15.has announced this, this week. Look at the issues that may contribute to
:42:16. > :42:19.them not being able to find work. If they did that, what a change would
:42:20. > :42:22.that make if they did it that way? It would be fairer in the first
:42:23. > :42:30.place, more constructive in terms of enabling people to get into...
:42:31. > :42:34.Before I became an MP I did some work across Europe as part of the
:42:35. > :42:38.employment strategy there. We looked at international evidence, it's
:42:39. > :42:43.going back a few years, I must say, and we want to do a similar process.
:42:44. > :42:47.In Australia and New Zealand they have this approach and it is far
:42:48. > :42:52.more effective. It's back to the evidence. The amount of money at
:42:53. > :42:58.stake, I've heard a Conservative MP said that, as well, I think. If the
:42:59. > :43:05.government was to proceed with this policy, it saves, I am told, about
:43:06. > :43:10.?640 million by 2021. There could be some other costs, I understand that.
:43:11. > :43:16.It's not a huge amount if you are talking about 20-21. But I did not
:43:17. > :43:21.get the impression from the Minister that the government was moving, are
:43:22. > :43:27.you? I hope that they are listening. You know what I asked you. We were
:43:28. > :43:34.away Tansey. This is disappointing, -- we will wait and see. Disabled
:43:35. > :43:38.people are twice as likely to live in poverty as non-disabled people.
:43:39. > :43:41.This extra support enables them, it's about their condition, this
:43:42. > :43:47.enables them to live as independent lives as possible, when they are
:43:48. > :43:55.judged as fit and able to get into work. There are shades of what
:43:56. > :44:01.Labour called the bedroom tax in this. You end up in quite a fight
:44:02. > :44:08.over money to some of the most vulnerable people in the country.
:44:09. > :44:14.And the political cost is much higher than any potential economic
:44:15. > :44:21.gain, even, and I emphasise the word even, you are right. The bedroom tax
:44:22. > :44:25.is a good comparison. Many Tories wish with hindsight that when they
:44:26. > :44:29.won majority last May they had come in and said, we recognise that this
:44:30. > :44:32.is potentially costing more than it saves because of the social
:44:33. > :44:37.consequences down the track. Another factor in this is that, whereas in
:44:38. > :44:40.the last parliament, the whole of the political argument has been
:44:41. > :44:45.organised very deliberately and effectively by George was around
:44:46. > :44:48.this question of the absolute imperative of fiscal consolidation
:44:49. > :44:52.and saving money whenever you could, it seems to me that the Brexit
:44:53. > :44:56.earthquake has changed the way that we debate politics. So much that
:44:57. > :44:59.this does not have the same imperative. So when you are talking
:45:00. > :45:04.about relatively small amounts of money which would have a horrible
:45:05. > :45:07.impact on people, any sensitive human being what have some
:45:08. > :45:11.compassion... The politics on this will change it would be difficult
:45:12. > :45:16.for the Chancellor to say, I'm sorry, I'm going to be as
:45:17. > :45:18.hard-hearted as I can because fiscal consolidation... We're not
:45:19. > :45:25.discussing fiscal policy like this any more because of Brexit. Rachel?
:45:26. > :45:28.The politics of this is fascinating because Theresa May has made it
:45:29. > :45:36.clear that her priority other people who are not poor, but just about
:45:37. > :45:42.managing. The JAMs, as we're calling them. These people are no longer a
:45:43. > :45:45.priority, it is interesting, there are lots of conservatives, like
:45:46. > :45:50.Heidi Allen there who is worried that she will lose her reputation
:45:51. > :45:55.for compassion. We need to let you go. We did ask for a minister from
:45:56. > :46:00.DWP to come on, nuns is available. What's the next stage in the
:46:01. > :46:03.parliamentary resistance -- manner seemed available. We will keep on
:46:04. > :46:12.pushing, we help the government will listen on Wednesday. Wednesday is
:46:13. > :46:15.the next stage? In the Autumn Statement. If you are not in the
:46:16. > :46:23.chamber make sure you are tuned into BBC Two. Thank you for joining us. .
:46:24. > :46:25.Now, if you've taken a look at our on-line Manifesto Tracker,
:46:26. > :46:28.you'll know that one of the Conservative Party's
:46:29. > :46:30.commitments at the last election was to reduce the number of MPs
:46:31. > :46:34.You'll also know that the government is on course to meet
:46:35. > :46:36.its promise by the time of the next election,
:46:37. > :46:46.But this morning the Labour Party set about trying to torpedo
:46:47. > :46:49.the changes in the Commons, with a Private Members Bill
:46:50. > :46:56.what is the best in our current system, like the MP constituency
:46:57. > :46:58.link, which is envied in democracies across the world,
:46:59. > :47:01.whilst ensuring that we do not lock out 2 million voters who have
:47:02. > :47:05.registered to vote since 2015 but under the current system, are not
:47:06. > :47:08.counted and therefore, effectively have no voice in this place.
:47:09. > :47:09.Surely no sensible government would deliberately discount
:47:10. > :47:12.2 million voters, simply because it does not suit their
:47:13. > :47:25.We can talk now to Pat Glass, and to the former Conservative
:47:26. > :47:32.-- welcome to the programme. The promise to cut the numbers of MPs
:47:33. > :47:37.from 650 to 600 was in the manifesto. Don't we expect
:47:38. > :47:43.governments to live up to their manifesto commitments? Well, I think
:47:44. > :47:47.what wasn't in the manifesto was the increase of 250 Lords at the same
:47:48. > :47:51.time. So we have this ludicrous situation where Government is
:47:52. > :47:55.cutting the elected House of Commons, with all of the additional
:47:56. > :47:59.work that's going to come from Europe, as we leave Europe, at the
:48:00. > :48:03.same time as it is stuffing the House of Lords in order to suit its
:48:04. > :48:07.own purposes. I see the condition tra diction. I'll take that up after
:48:08. > :48:15.I have interviewed you, with a Conservative MP. But as
:48:16. > :48:19.contradictory as that may be, my point was, it was a manifesto
:48:20. > :48:25.commitment and we all expects governments, I mean we come down on
:48:26. > :48:30.them like a tonne of breaks if they don't meet their commitments. All
:48:31. > :48:34.they are doing, is what they said? And equally we expect oppositions to
:48:35. > :48:40.deliver a good opposition to deliver a good democracies which is what we
:48:41. > :48:45.are doing. Isn't part of a good democracies that most constituencies
:48:46. > :48:49.be of roughly equal size and at the moment, the average number of voters
:48:50. > :48:51.in a Labour constituency is smaller than the average number in the
:48:52. > :48:57.Conservative constituency. They are not equal Well, that is true in some
:48:58. > :49:01.cases. However, my Bill is very clear about saying - yes, we do need
:49:02. > :49:06.to have equalisation but it has to be sense I will. In constituencies
:49:07. > :49:11.like mine would stretch - and I want to say it is not about me because I
:49:12. > :49:16.will not be standing at the next election - but constituencies like
:49:17. > :49:21.mine would stretch from the banks of the Tyne to the Tees. The whole of
:49:22. > :49:27.western Durham, right in the middle of the Pennines, for a constituent
:49:28. > :49:30.who wanted to see me if I had a surgery in the south and given
:49:31. > :49:34.communication goes East West it would take a whole day on public
:49:35. > :49:39.transport and probably an evernight stay. I don't think that's fair on
:49:40. > :49:42.my constituent. That is clear. That would be an argument to take to the
:49:43. > :49:44.boundary commission to rethink. The boundary commission, as you know,
:49:45. > :49:48.the political parties appear in front of that. Mr Blair's Labour
:49:49. > :49:52.Party was actually rather good in front of the boundary commission,
:49:53. > :49:59.got a lot of changes done but the principle that at the moment Labour
:50:00. > :50:02.is overrepresented, because it has, in general, smaller constituencies,
:50:03. > :50:06.and the Conservatives underrepresented, isn't that one you
:50:07. > :50:12.concede? Well, I think that's exactly what the boundary commission
:50:13. > :50:16.should be looking at but cutting number of MPs at the same time as we
:50:17. > :50:19.are bringing all the work back from Europe and getting a much-bigger,
:50:20. > :50:24.unelected House, I think that makes no sense and this is a worry for all
:50:25. > :50:28.of us who care about democracy. I understand that. And people will
:50:29. > :50:32.think - it's to the advantage of Labour that these things don't go
:50:33. > :50:37.through, but as you will know as well as as I do a number of
:50:38. > :50:40.Conservative MPs are worried about the consequences so my question to
:50:41. > :50:44.you is - do you have a chance of winning with this with Tory rebels
:50:45. > :50:48.on your side? Well, it looks as if what the Government has done is
:50:49. > :50:52.united the whole of the UK, because MPs from right across the country
:50:53. > :50:55.are here today and I think Conservative MPs are voting with
:50:56. > :51:00.their feet. They are simply not going to be here today. All right.
:51:01. > :51:06.Well listen, we will let you get back and see what is happening,
:51:07. > :51:10.thank you for joining us. Also in Central Lobby, we have the former
:51:11. > :51:17.Conservative Chief Whip, Mark Harper. There you are, he joins me
:51:18. > :51:21.now, by partisan cooperation as the Labour moves out and Conservative
:51:22. > :51:28.moves N your boundaries change on a regular basis and there is clearly a
:51:29. > :51:31.principle for now and there is inequality between Labour and
:51:32. > :51:38.Conservative. Let's concede that for the moementd but why do you plan to
:51:39. > :51:42.redraw them on the 2015 vote Erroll when there are now another 2 million
:51:43. > :51:46.people on the roll, why don't you include them? It is a civil point
:51:47. > :51:52.and came up in the debant Pat raised and I enned her clearly. If you look
:51:53. > :51:54.at the independent analysis, I quoted some from number crunches and
:51:55. > :51:59.another colleague quoted the House of Commons' library. That increase
:52:00. > :52:02.in 2 million voters who registered for the referendum was broadly
:52:03. > :52:08.evenly spread across the whole country so it doesn't make, if you
:52:09. > :52:11.included them all t doesn't make a material difference in the
:52:12. > :52:16.distribution of seats. Why not include them all. We live in the
:52:17. > :52:18.world where there are constant demands for more voter
:52:19. > :52:22.participation, to encourage people to be more involved. We have two
:52:23. > :52:27.million more people registered to vote, why not just recognise that
:52:28. > :52:31.and divide up the constituencies on the basis of the latest figures?
:52:32. > :52:39.People will suspect you don't want to do that because a lot of the 2
:52:40. > :52:46.million may not be Tory voters As I said, the spread across the country
:52:47. > :52:52.will not make a difference to the distribution of seats. The problem s
:52:53. > :52:56.if you do what the Bill does and say the boundary commission has to be
:52:57. > :52:59.finished by 2018 but start using a register for 2017, the practical
:53:00. > :53:01.consequence is that this register, this boundary review won't happen
:53:02. > :53:04.and what Labour is really trying to do is make sure the next election
:53:05. > :53:10.will be fought on boundaries which are 20 years out of date. They don't
:53:11. > :53:15.want any boundary change. They don't want more equal seats. They want the
:53:16. > :53:17.situation to continue being stacked in favour of them. They are also
:53:18. > :53:23.worried about having boundary changes at all because Labour MPs
:53:24. > :53:26.are worried they will be de-selected by all those new Labour members, run
:53:27. > :53:33.by Momentum and they are worried about that. Could you explain to our
:53:34. > :53:36.viewsers the logic of cutting our elected representatives by 50 and
:53:37. > :53:40.increasing our unelected representatives by 250? First, since
:53:41. > :53:44.the last election, the number of Lords is only a net increase of 15.
:53:45. > :53:47.But there was a lot more before that under the Conservatives Well, I of
:53:48. > :53:52.course and you remember Andrew I think I was probably on your
:53:53. > :53:56.programme, I was the minister who tried in the last Parliament to
:53:57. > :54:01.reform the House of Lords and have a much more elected House of Lords.
:54:02. > :54:06.That didn't get the support of MPs in the House of Commons. So now you
:54:07. > :54:09.are back to 250. I know what is happening at the moment is peers in
:54:10. > :54:13.the House of Lords themselves, led by the Lord Speak remember trying to
:54:14. > :54:18.look at ways they can reduce the size of the House of Lords to take
:54:19. > :54:20.account of the fact that it is too large but interestingly, since the
:54:21. > :54:23.last election, in fact since 2010, the cost of running the House of
:54:24. > :54:30.Lords has actually fallen by 14% in real terms. How much will it cost to
:54:31. > :54:34.add 250 peers? We are not added. I don't know where this - this is
:54:35. > :54:37.Labour number the number of peers since the last election has
:54:38. > :54:45.increased by 15 and I think since... The election was only a year ago and
:54:46. > :54:49.a bit Since 2010 I think it has increased by 100 but of course most
:54:50. > :54:53.of the costs of the House of Lords is fixed. Increasing the number of
:54:54. > :54:59.peers doesn't actual Lynne cease. Well they all sign on, so you add
:55:00. > :55:03.more on a daily ranchts the cost has fallen, since 2010 but I don't
:55:04. > :55:06.disagree with you about the need for House of Lords' reform. I was in
:55:07. > :55:10.favour of it before the last election. I tried to introduce a
:55:11. > :55:13.bill. We didn't get the support to get it through Parliament. You have
:55:14. > :55:17.made that point. Thank you for joining us. What do you think? I
:55:18. > :55:22.think the point you made about the Labour MPs is a fair one. A lot of
:55:23. > :55:25.them don't like the boundary review, partly because individual MPs are
:55:26. > :55:30.going to lose their seats or have seats merged and also for the
:55:31. > :55:34.moderate MPs or for lots of MPs they will find themselves up for
:55:35. > :55:39.re-selection and they will find themselves... Yes, that is a factor
:55:40. > :55:43.It is a more complicated factor. Do you accept the point he made if you
:55:44. > :55:49.do move to include the 2 million on, that would delay it until after the
:55:50. > :55:55.next election? Certainly I belief so technically because of the way the
:55:56. > :55:57.legislation is written you can enagent the changes through
:55:58. > :56:00.statutory implements as long as you use the premise of the original
:56:01. > :56:05.legislation, the boundary commission and the decision to use as it were
:56:06. > :56:13.the old roll is sort of bundled up with that. So you would have to do a
:56:14. > :56:17.lot of unpicking. One pointed that I thinking Pat Glass didn't raise was
:56:18. > :56:21.when you reduce the number of MPs 20600, the proportion who are
:56:22. > :56:27.Government pay roll MPs, ie more whipable, rises There are quite a
:56:28. > :56:29.lot of them. Yes, there are. I'm sorry I have to move on Another
:56:30. > :56:36.time. There will be another time. There's just time for a quick look
:56:37. > :56:39.back at the big political stories Here's Ellie with a review
:56:40. > :56:43.of the week in just 60 seconds. The PM told banqueting business
:56:44. > :56:48.bosses on Monday that Britian should champion free trade in the world
:56:49. > :56:50.and it was up to them The Shadow Business Secretary,
:56:51. > :56:59.Clive Lewis, said school and university leavers should ask
:57:00. > :57:02.more questions, as he launched Labour's mission-orientated
:57:03. > :57:06.industrial strategy. Government plans to take away peers'
:57:07. > :57:09.rights to veto secondary legislation were dropped on Thursday,
:57:10. > :57:11.but there was also a hint that the Lords need
:57:12. > :57:13.to behave themselves. In the week that saw wall-to-wall
:57:14. > :57:15.coverage of Nigel Farage standing in front of a lift,
:57:16. > :57:19.questions of whether the four-time Ukip leader should be made
:57:20. > :57:22.a Lord did not go away, and Theresa May didn't
:57:23. > :57:25.rule it out either. Such matters are normally never
:57:26. > :57:29.discussed in public. And Barack Obama wanted to reassure
:57:30. > :57:32.world leaders that there was nothing to worry about when it
:57:33. > :57:35.came to the future of It was part of so long,
:57:36. > :57:52.farewell, auf widersehen, The reason for that scoul on Angela
:57:53. > :57:55.Merkel's face yesterday is that Mr Obama seemed to take about eight
:57:56. > :58:00.minutes to answer each question. I think he is getting into the roll
:58:01. > :58:06.now of being a pundit, rather than a President. He was really relaxed
:58:07. > :58:11.when he explained what was going on. I was in America in 2008 when he
:58:12. > :58:14.won, we thought it was the start of a new America in 2008 when he won
:58:15. > :58:17.and got re-elected four years later. What did we know?
:58:18. > :58:20.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:21. > :58:27.The question was which of Jeremy Corbyn's possessions
:58:28. > :58:30.Is it a) His prize marrow b) His favourite tracksuit
:58:31. > :58:32.c) His bicycle or d) A signed pair of his shoes.
:58:33. > :58:42.The shoes. Are you bidding for them? I'm afraid not. I might just sneak
:58:43. > :58:44.up and grab a pair when he is not around.
:58:45. > :58:47.Thanks Rachel, Rafael and all my guests.
:58:48. > :58:49.The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:50. > :58:52.I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics ...do join
:58:53. > :59:14.corpse of American democracy and poke around inside with a boat hook.
:59:15. > :59:17.As spaceship Earth spirals towards its finale,
:59:18. > :59:20.what the hell happened in that election?