:00:36. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.Donald Trump says Nigel Farage would make a great British Ambassador
:00:43. > :00:46.to the US, just a week after the UKIP leader met
:00:47. > :00:52.Downing Street says there is no vacancy.
:00:53. > :00:54.After the former UKIP leader Diane James announces
:00:55. > :00:56.she's leaving the party, we'll ask one current candidate
:00:57. > :01:03.for the leadership how he plans to stop the infighting.
:01:04. > :01:06.Rail passengers face more disruption as the RMT union stages another
:01:07. > :01:12.Union leaders are calling on the government to intervene.
:01:13. > :01:16.The Shadow Transport Secretary joins us live.
:01:17. > :01:18.And should it be illegal for people to wear military medals
:01:19. > :01:24.We'll ask the Armed Forces Minister whether the government now backs one
:01:25. > :01:38.And with us for the whole of the programme today
:01:39. > :01:40.the Conservative MP and former Rail Minister Claire Perry.
:01:41. > :01:45.So, Donald Trump has caused a bit of a kerfuffle
:01:46. > :01:51.He tweeted last night: Many people would like to see Nigel Farage
:01:52. > :01:52.represent Great Britain as their Ambassador
:01:53. > :02:00.This morning Downing Street issued a response, saying
:02:01. > :02:09.We have an excellent ambassador to the US."
:02:10. > :02:17.Fairly pointed. In the last half hour that message was repeated by
:02:18. > :02:20.the Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson in the House of commons. As the
:02:21. > :02:26.House knows full well we have a first rate ambassador in Washington
:02:27. > :02:30.doing a very good job of relating both to the present administration
:02:31. > :02:38.and the administration to be, and there is no vacancy for that
:02:39. > :02:43.position. Clare, why not? This is the US President elect. He has
:02:44. > :02:47.requested it, it would be a direct line to Donald Trump. Many people,
:02:48. > :02:52.including me, think Nigel Farage should have no role in this. Donald
:02:53. > :02:57.Trump will say all sorts of interesting things and come up with
:02:58. > :03:00.his philosophies and we can write this one off as just another
:03:01. > :03:05.utterance. We have a great ambassador and there is no vacancy.
:03:06. > :03:10.The Ambassador's team work hard with both camps to make sure we have good
:03:11. > :03:14.relationships going for it and we have got conversations about state
:03:15. > :03:18.visits with Donald Trump and Theresa May going over there. We should
:03:19. > :03:24.focus on the serious questions that these relationships need to deliver,
:03:25. > :03:29.not the sort of bloke -ish politics that Nigel Farage indulges in. Even
:03:30. > :03:34.though politics has changed. Donald Trump's election has set a different
:03:35. > :03:39.tone and style and it would be the first time a US president elect had
:03:40. > :03:45.requested an individual anti-was the first politician to visit him. As
:03:46. > :03:48.somebody said, we are in a post-truth world and just like the
:03:49. > :03:53.negotiations we need to have about coming out of the EU, which need to
:03:54. > :03:57.be done carefully and need to focus on the facts, and we will deal with
:03:58. > :04:02.some of that tomorrow, but Donald Trump will have to deal with some
:04:03. > :04:07.realities. He has rolled back on Obamacare, there will not be a wall.
:04:08. > :04:12.All those things he shouted on about during the campaign will be very
:04:13. > :04:16.difficult. As you said, we need to see what he will do in practice and
:04:17. > :04:18.Donald Trump has released a video in which he sets out his plans for his
:04:19. > :04:21.first day in the White House. I will ask my transition team
:04:22. > :04:24.to develop a list of executive actions we can take on day one
:04:25. > :04:27.to restore our laws On trade I am going to issue
:04:28. > :04:34.a notification of intent to withdraw It is a potential
:04:35. > :04:38.disaster for our country. Instead we will negotiate fair,
:04:39. > :04:41.bilateral trade deals that bring jobs and industry back
:04:42. > :04:54.on American shores. As you say, no mention of Obamacare,
:04:55. > :04:58.although that was not the full statement, and no mention of
:04:59. > :05:05.building that wall. It will be a big one. What is your response? My
:05:06. > :05:09.response is we have got to respect their decision. I do not think he is
:05:10. > :05:13.fit for office in Word, thought or deed, but I am not in America and we
:05:14. > :05:18.have to make sure that whatever happens we get the right thing for
:05:19. > :05:21.Britain out of this relationship. I will not be Foreign Secretary any
:05:22. > :05:26.time soon with comments like that. He will roll back on many things he
:05:27. > :05:29.said, things that were disingenuous and which were said purely for
:05:30. > :05:32.political mileage and which did not have a hope of being delivered. When
:05:33. > :05:48.we talk about post-truth politics, it is sad
:05:49. > :05:50.because Donald Trump can get up and lined with impunity about promises
:05:51. > :05:52.he cannot possibly hope to deliver. Do you think Theresa May will be
:05:53. > :05:55.able to build strong links with him? We have a great ambassador and a
:05:56. > :05:58.great team and they are building those links with understanding. For
:05:59. > :06:04.as it is about security and making sure that whatever happens with Nato
:06:05. > :06:09.and whether bilateral trade deal that it can work for us. The reality
:06:10. > :06:10.is dawning for Mr Trump about what the job entails.
:06:11. > :06:15.The question for today is, what object in the Government Chief
:06:16. > :06:18.Whip's office is said to strike fear into the hearts
:06:19. > :06:31.(D) A signed photograph of Ann Widdecombe.
:06:32. > :06:35.What a good advert for the job of Chief Whip.
:06:36. > :06:39.And a little later Claire, we hope, will give us the correct answer.
:06:40. > :06:41.Tomorrow the Chancellor Philip Hammond will present
:06:42. > :06:43.his Autumn Statement in the House of Commons.
:06:44. > :06:46.It's not quite a full-blown Budget, but it will contain plenty
:06:47. > :06:49.The government says it will help families who are "just
:06:50. > :06:56.So what could Mr Hammond be cooking up?
:06:57. > :06:58.Philip Hammond said at the weekend that his first Autumn Statement
:06:59. > :07:01.will be about making the economy "match-fit" for the opportunities
:07:02. > :07:06.It's thought that Mr Hammond will loosen the purse strings
:07:07. > :07:09.a little, but he's said there will be no "fiscal splurge".
:07:10. > :07:13.He does have a bit more leeway though after the government
:07:14. > :07:16.abandoned the plan to eliminate the deficit by the end
:07:17. > :07:23.So, the Chancellor is expected to announce a boost for the nation's
:07:24. > :07:25.roads and railways, with an infrastructure stimulus
:07:26. > :07:29.package that could be as much as ?5 billion pounds.
:07:30. > :07:32.And we'll hear more from the Chancellor about a ?3 billion
:07:33. > :07:38.fund to help small house builders create 25,000 new homes by 2020.
:07:39. > :07:41.We'll see an extra ?2 billion going towards research
:07:42. > :07:45.and development - that was confirmed by the Prime Minister yesterday.
:07:46. > :07:47.It's also being reported that the Chancellor
:07:48. > :07:52.That would be a measure aimed at helping families
:07:53. > :07:57.And Mr Hammond could also raise the tax-free personal
:07:58. > :08:03.It's currently ?11,000 but the Conservative manifesto
:08:04. > :08:12.promised to make it ?12,500 by the end of the parliament.
:08:13. > :08:22.We are joined by Labour's petered out, the shadow Treasury Minister.
:08:23. > :08:25.First of all, Claire Perry, back in 2010, the driving mission of the new
:08:26. > :08:31.coalition government was to eliminate the deficit. This morning
:08:32. > :08:36.we learned the government has already borrowed nearly ?50 billion
:08:37. > :08:40.since April. On the key issue, as it was George Osborne's mantra to
:08:41. > :08:47.eliminate the deficit, he failed. We have to look at where we came in in
:08:48. > :08:50.2010. We had a deficit as a percent of national income that was
:08:51. > :08:56.approaching Greek levels and it was right to say this coalition
:08:57. > :08:59.government as it was would establish a level of fiscal credibility for
:09:00. > :09:04.the country that when the bad times hit again, because they always do,
:09:05. > :09:08.we are better prepared. But the thing about the financial shock of
:09:09. > :09:13.2008 was that we had nothing in the coppers to deal with the crisis. It
:09:14. > :09:17.was absolutely right to set out that fiscal credibility and to try and
:09:18. > :09:22.deliver it. We are going back in history here, but still
:09:23. > :09:27.conservatives like to blame Labour, if not for the crash because Labour
:09:28. > :09:30.did not cause it, but for the fact there were not enough reserves to
:09:31. > :09:36.deal with the recession. What do you say to that? The bottom line is the
:09:37. > :09:40.Tories pushed on the issue of Labour's record and labour could
:09:41. > :09:50.have done more at the town, no doubt about that, but the idea that...
:09:51. > :09:57.Sunken to some conservatives do say that. But they have not sorted at
:09:58. > :10:01.the government's finances and they have miserably failed in most of
:10:02. > :10:05.their attempts to put infrastructure spending into the economy. Let's
:10:06. > :10:11.stick to the issue of the deficit because as you have conceded that
:10:12. > :10:14.was the central mantra and George Osborne wanted to do it and he
:10:15. > :10:19.wanted to repair the roof even though the sun was not shining by
:10:20. > :10:24.2010. But that failed and you did not eliminate the deficit and you
:10:25. > :10:28.still have not eliminated it because the surplus has been abandoned. We
:10:29. > :10:34.had the financial crisis, we had the Brexit conversation, we had in
:10:35. > :10:38.Britain, because we had a plan, because we were able to establish a
:10:39. > :10:44.reputation for financial credibility, we were able to grow
:10:45. > :10:50.and the deficit was down by two thirds. It will not be eliminated by
:10:51. > :10:55.2020. Now we have a completely different issue and what is
:10:56. > :10:59.fascinating about this statement tomorrow is it is the first time
:11:00. > :11:02.that the Chancellor is going to be talking on Brexit turf. I hope he
:11:03. > :11:08.will be straight with us about the difficulties we face. How difficult
:11:09. > :11:12.will they be? We will face difficult times over the next few years and
:11:13. > :11:17.that is why I was remain campaigner. But we have to have a Chancellor who
:11:18. > :11:21.acknowledges the fact of what the world will apply and says what the
:11:22. > :11:25.government can do around infrastructure spending to improve
:11:26. > :11:29.that and also recognise that while there may be many challenges posed
:11:30. > :11:34.Brexit, there are opportunities for Britain as well. Do you accept now
:11:35. > :11:39.that if, in your view, we have got challenging times ahead, the fact
:11:40. > :11:42.that your government and the Coalition Government failed to
:11:43. > :11:46.eliminate the deficit has left us in a more difficult situation. We got
:11:47. > :11:51.the deficit down by two thirds by the time of the last election. We
:11:52. > :12:03.were on the way and we restored the situation for fiscal confidence in
:12:04. > :12:06.this country. I have great respect for Peter, but the worst thing we
:12:07. > :12:08.can do is go down the policy of the magic money tree and crash the
:12:09. > :12:11.economy over again by borrowing. In a way that is the question that will
:12:12. > :12:17.be put to Labour. Having said it was not your fault that the global
:12:18. > :12:22.recession happened in 2008, you are now putting forward eye watering
:12:23. > :12:24.sums of money, ?5 billion of infrastructure spending, which will
:12:25. > :12:31.lead to politicians like Clare saying, you are spending money that
:12:32. > :12:35.is not there. Labour has a strong, clear, fiscal credibility rule which
:12:36. > :12:40.means we will have a balanced budget over a rolling five-year period. We
:12:41. > :12:45.will invest capital in infrastructure, and in skills,
:12:46. > :12:50.roads, rail, it has been costed out and it is there. When you say it is
:12:51. > :12:56.there, how will you pay for the ?500 billion? What the government is
:12:57. > :13:01.doing is there is an element of borrowing, but we can borrow at low
:13:02. > :13:05.interest rates historically. We have got a capacity to do that. At the
:13:06. > :13:10.end of the day we are not going to spend any more than we can cope
:13:11. > :13:14.with. But that is a matter of judgment. When you say it is there
:13:15. > :13:18.because of low interest rates, they have been there for quite some time,
:13:19. > :13:24.so is it justifiable to increase borrowing at that rate? Let's deal
:13:25. > :13:28.with investment. When you invest in something, you want to get a rate of
:13:29. > :13:36.return so there is growth in economy, so that pays for the
:13:37. > :13:42.borrowing. At the end of the day Labour is identifying is to get us
:13:43. > :13:46.out of the situation we are in, you have to have investment. All the
:13:47. > :13:51.capital spending was pretty well cut during the coalition and now Labour
:13:52. > :13:54.is reversing that. The capital spending was pulled in because
:13:55. > :13:58.George Osborne said the country could not afford it and it is easier
:13:59. > :14:05.to cut capital spending than it is to make cuts to day-to-day spending.
:14:06. > :14:08.I hate to disagree, but as a rail minister we are investing ?38
:14:09. > :14:16.billion in railways over the next five years. That is now. That was
:14:17. > :14:19.promised in 2012, it is the biggest amount of money since Victorian
:14:20. > :14:24.times. Tomorrow we will hear more good news about spending on fibre
:14:25. > :14:32.broadband. Would you like to spend the sort of amount that Labour is
:14:33. > :14:35.proposing? I agree, cross-party agree on increased infrastructure
:14:36. > :14:40.spending. But we had 13 years of a Labour government, and I am sorry to
:14:41. > :14:44.harp back... That was a long time ago, there has to be some
:14:45. > :14:50.responsibility from the Coalition Government and the Conservatives. We
:14:51. > :14:56.have to cut the deficit. Let's put the deficit to one side, yes, it has
:14:57. > :15:01.been cut, but how much is the nation's debt? George Osborne made
:15:02. > :15:08.big promises about reducing it as a proportion of GDP. And it is going
:15:09. > :15:11.down. In every year if we run a deficit, we add to the stock of the
:15:12. > :15:17.debt and that is why these things are linked. Interest rates have
:15:18. > :15:21.started to train upwards now, so the era of really cheap borrowing is
:15:22. > :15:27.potentially coming to an end. The point is this, how can we want to go
:15:28. > :15:32.into troubled times with the economy with our fiscal credibility shot to
:15:33. > :15:36.pieces? This is why we have attracted inward investment because
:15:37. > :15:45.we have now an economic competence that was missing for so many years.
:15:46. > :15:48.The economy continued to grow in the three months after the Brexit Ark
:15:49. > :15:53.Futura, despite warnings from people like Claire Perry and on the Labour
:15:54. > :15:59.side, the employment rate is at a record high, consumer confidence is
:16:00. > :16:01.strong from the last set of retell figures, so it's not the chaos
:16:02. > :16:09.Labour politicians are talking about. It's June 23 when the vote
:16:10. > :16:14.took place, less than six months away from the referendum now, I
:16:15. > :16:21.don't thing anybody expected that on the 24th of June we would fall off
:16:22. > :16:26.the cliff. A lot of the rhetoric would was that they would be an
:16:27. > :16:32.immediate economic downturn and we would feel the after-shocks
:16:33. > :16:42.immediately. Pound is down 15%, that is go to feed into inflation. It's
:16:43. > :16:46.going to feed into rising prices, and feed into taking money out of
:16:47. > :16:49.people's pockets. You have to admit those warnings have become a
:16:50. > :16:55.realistic, apart from the pound, people will argue with that was good
:16:56. > :16:59.or bad... We have the fastest growing economy in the G7, the
:17:00. > :17:05.economy was in a really strong position and therefore can survive
:17:06. > :17:09.this Brexit shock, if we continue to behave responsibly. The Tories have
:17:10. > :17:13.done nothing about predictable, we're still one of the most
:17:14. > :17:19.inefficient in the OECD group. Why do you think this is? Because of
:17:20. > :17:26.this issue about lack of investment. Because we have high levels of
:17:27. > :17:31.employment? The matter people now in zero hours contracts, who are in the
:17:32. > :17:39.system, is quite significant -- the amount of people. The amount of
:17:40. > :17:45.people who are also in small hours work is quite considerable as well.
:17:46. > :17:49.So those figures, yes, everyone welcomes and implement going down...
:17:50. > :17:55.That could be the argument for lower productivity, compared to a country
:17:56. > :18:01.like France. 30% lower. Jeremy Corbyn spoke to the CBI, the annual
:18:02. > :18:04.conference yesterday and talked about his industrial strategy and
:18:05. > :18:07.was giving his views on business and the economy. I think we can show a
:18:08. > :18:23.quote from his speech. He said: what is that about? I think it's
:18:24. > :18:30.about a different approach in terms of the economy. What does that
:18:31. > :18:34.actually mean? The economy, it's a different approach to investment in
:18:35. > :18:38.the economy, different industries, a whole new technological age, as he
:18:39. > :18:45.says, another industrial revolution. I think we will hear good news
:18:46. > :18:49.tomorrow, because what we all agree in is ramping up the investment in
:18:50. > :18:54.infrastructure, and also we lead the world in a lot of this area, in
:18:55. > :18:58.terms of how to transform our industries, by investment in smart
:18:59. > :19:01.technologies, I think we will continue to hear about the
:19:02. > :19:04.government investing and I'm sure Peter will agree with this, in
:19:05. > :19:12.industry, in research and science and R A final word. We are
:19:13. > :19:15.getting less put back then the government took out over the past
:19:16. > :19:18.six years in research and develop and so we aren't even catching up.
:19:19. > :19:22.Thank you very much. We can expect a slight whiff
:19:23. > :19:24.of sulphur in Strasbourg today as the Brexit Secretary meets
:19:25. > :19:26.the European Parliament's chief David Davies is reported to have
:19:27. > :19:31.quoted the bible in reference to the Liberal MEP, saying
:19:32. > :19:33."get thee behind me, In response Mr Verhofstadt tweeted
:19:34. > :19:40.yesterday that he was looking forward to "a hell
:19:41. > :19:41.of a conversation". Our correspondent Damian Gammaticas
:19:42. > :19:56.is in Strasbourg. So they are great friends,
:19:57. > :20:01.obviously! Well, when they actually met, an hour or two ago, they
:20:02. > :20:06.addressed that point straightaway, there was a lot of backslapping and
:20:07. > :20:10.chuckling going on. David Davies immediately said, look, I wasn't
:20:11. > :20:15.talking about you, I was addressing that point to the questioner in that
:20:16. > :20:19.committee in Parliament, I was saying, don't tempt me down a route
:20:20. > :20:22.where might say something I might regret. The two of them laughed and
:20:23. > :20:29.chuckled and went into the talks. When they came out, David Davies
:20:30. > :20:32.said they had had a good session and Mr Verhofstadt is an Anglophile, he
:20:33. > :20:37.likes driving British sports car, and had had a good chat. Mr
:20:38. > :20:42.Verhofstadt was more pointed. He said he made very clear several
:20:43. > :20:48.things, they would be no compromise on freedom of movement, and delayed
:20:49. > :20:54.that out, and also said that the timetable, interestingly, for Brexit
:20:55. > :20:58.talks, is very tight, 14 to 15 months is all they will have to
:20:59. > :21:03.complete things wants Article 50 is triggered, because he says things
:21:04. > :21:06.have to be done by the next European parliamentary elections, beginning
:21:07. > :21:13.of 2019, otherwise it would be farcical for the UK to be voting
:21:14. > :21:16.MEPs. When they had discussions, and some of the lines coming out of
:21:17. > :21:23.press conferences over the single market, whether they be Davies is
:21:24. > :21:28.coming retained membership, is there some confusion about what was asked
:21:29. > :21:34.for and what Guy Verhofstadt and another EU politician actually
:21:35. > :21:40.thought he was asking for? I think I can clear this up, because I was in
:21:41. > :21:46.there, in that press conference. There was confusion, Manfred Webber,
:21:47. > :21:55.who David Davies also met, he is the leader of the best grouping in the
:21:56. > :21:59.Parliament, a German MEP, he said he was deeply frustrated because he
:22:00. > :22:03.heard nothing new at all from David Davies, he said, we don't know what
:22:04. > :22:08.the British government position is, we need clarity, and he went on to
:22:09. > :22:10.say, I've heard they want to be in the single market. There was some
:22:11. > :22:16.confusion as to whether he heard that from David Davies, but I asked
:22:17. > :22:21.him to clarify in the press conference, and he made clear then
:22:22. > :22:29.that he hadn't heard, and he was clear as well that there will be no
:22:30. > :22:35.compromise, again, on those four Freedoms that the EU side sees as
:22:36. > :22:41.absolutely crucial. He then went on to have some very critical word
:22:42. > :22:45.about Boris Johnson, saying that in the referendum campaign he had
:22:46. > :22:48.stoked fears about migration from Turkey, now as Foreign Secretary he
:22:49. > :22:53.has been to Turkey, promising them support in their EU membership.
:22:54. > :22:58.Manfred Webber called that unbelievable, and arrogant
:22:59. > :23:02.provocation from the Foreign Secretary. But he was clearly hadn't
:23:03. > :23:07.heard from David Davies about wanting to be part of the single
:23:08. > :23:12.market. He said the British government has no idea what it wants
:23:13. > :23:16.at the moment. Note that you will be following all the subsequent
:23:17. > :23:19.meetings, let's hope lots is not more lost in translation!
:23:20. > :23:21.Let's talk about UKIP now - and yesterday's announcement
:23:22. > :23:23.from Diane James that she'd decided to leave the party.
:23:24. > :23:26.You'll remember that Diane was UKIP leader for just eighteen days
:23:27. > :23:28.earlier this autumn, before she stood down -
:23:29. > :23:30.blaming a lack of support from the party's executive.
:23:31. > :23:41.Ms James released a statement yesterday,
:23:42. > :23:44.One of the three candidates to be UKIP's next leader -
:23:45. > :23:58.So, Suzanne Evans, who is also standing, says Diana James should
:23:59. > :24:03.stand down as an MEP, do you agree? I would first is that on a personal
:24:04. > :24:06.level, I have a lot of sympathy for Diana James, because I can see what
:24:07. > :24:15.she has come up against, I am up against similar things. Essentially,
:24:16. > :24:18.there is a clique... Expressed similar to Europe,... A clique
:24:19. > :24:23.within Ukip that simply doesn't want reform, people want to hold on to
:24:24. > :24:26.their jobs, people who have worked very hard, ingratiating themselves,
:24:27. > :24:34.who don't want to link was that control. Who are they? The easiest
:24:35. > :24:40.way is to look at the Twitter feed, the people who are attacking me, the
:24:41. > :24:46.people who attacked Nathan, Diane... Are they the ruling executive? They
:24:47. > :24:53.are apparatchiks plus certain MEPs. But should she stand down as an MEP?
:24:54. > :24:57.In spite of my simply, she was elected on the basis of representing
:24:58. > :25:03.Ukip so unfortunately her position is untenable -- my sympathy. I
:25:04. > :25:07.believe that I stand a chance of persuading her to come back if I am
:25:08. > :25:11.leader. What about looking at some of the other personalities in the
:25:12. > :25:17.party, you mentioned Steven Woolfe, the ex-leadership candidate, Nathan
:25:18. > :25:18.Gill now sits as an independent in the Welsh assembly because
:25:19. > :25:25.apparently he couldn't stand the Ukip infighting. It does look like
:25:26. > :25:29.the beginning of the end for Ukip. Or alternatively, it looks like a
:25:30. > :25:34.kind of crisis which is sometimes necessary in order for people to
:25:35. > :25:38.identify the need for radical change, which is what I'm proposing.
:25:39. > :25:45.What would you do to sort out the party? Firstly, the problems we have
:25:46. > :25:49.at the moment is because people in positions of power and influence are
:25:50. > :25:53.all pulling in different directions, just link to determine which
:25:54. > :25:57.direction they want the party to go, that's what you have disunity at the
:25:58. > :26:02.moment. I would bring unity by shifting decision-making powers from
:26:03. > :26:05.the leadership, to the membership, so the whole party is pointing in
:26:06. > :26:10.the same direction and everyone understands it is their sole
:26:11. > :26:14.responsibility to elicit the role of the membership and drive for that.
:26:15. > :26:19.Do you think you would have to sack people before that happens? I think
:26:20. > :26:23.a lot of people would rebel against my leadership, because these people,
:26:24. > :26:27.who have worked themselves into positions of power, would want to
:26:28. > :26:30.relinquish that quickly. If they don't cooperate with the will of the
:26:31. > :26:35.membership, there is no room for them in the party stop what is your
:26:36. > :26:39.message for other MEPs who might be thinking of leaving? They need to
:26:40. > :26:44.think carefully about whether they truly believe in the concept of
:26:45. > :26:46.democracy or simply want to gain their commitment to democracy to
:26:47. > :26:51.attain a position of power from which they might explode their
:26:52. > :26:56.opportunity to determine the future position of the party on the basis
:26:57. > :27:05.of their own agenda? Currently, there are four Ukip MEPs who are now
:27:06. > :27:08.former Ukip MEPs because they sit as independents, if we take Steven
:27:09. > :27:13.Woolfe, he was alleged to have had talks with the Tories, would you
:27:14. > :27:18.like to see them join the Tories? No. In a row, Ukip has succeeded,
:27:19. > :27:23.the campaign mission of this party was to have a referendum and have
:27:24. > :27:28.written about to leave the EU, that has been done, I think terminal
:27:29. > :27:32.spasms of a political party which is only going to get uglier. I Nigel
:27:33. > :27:36.Farage, rather than sipping cocktails with Donald Trump, should
:27:37. > :27:41.be working with the party for whom they did so much to try and sort it
:27:42. > :27:44.out, if he believes in it. It's a terrible shame for those who have
:27:45. > :27:47.voted for Ukip but in a row they have succeeded in their core
:27:48. > :27:51.mission, apart from that, I have seen nothing they had ever
:27:52. > :27:55.contributed to the national debate and perhaps Jonathan should think
:27:56. > :28:00.about joining another party! Thank you very much for that but all you
:28:01. > :28:05.have seen is phase one nearing its completion. Phase two is going to
:28:06. > :28:08.get more exciting, that is the revolution in British politics. You
:28:09. > :28:11.are going to see a direct democracy movement, if I am elected leader,
:28:12. > :28:18.which will haemorrhage support from parties like yours and labour. We're
:28:19. > :28:22.not talking about a referendum, we're talking about internal, direct
:28:23. > :28:28.democracy within a political party in Britain, about giving the
:28:29. > :28:32.ordinary members about. We elect our leaders in a fairly orderly way and
:28:33. > :28:39.we... Are you frightened of this sort of thing? Direct democracy? It
:28:40. > :28:44.always seems to translate into lots and lots of abuse on social media,
:28:45. > :28:49.as he has said, I'm pretty happy that my party has a pretty into
:28:50. > :28:53.consistent democratic process for electing leaders and it was my party
:28:54. > :28:56.that gave the British people the biggest democratic exercise we have
:28:57. > :29:04.ever had, with the referendum. You were forced to buy Ukip and your
:29:05. > :29:07.party is blocking the process. Parliamentary democracy has produced
:29:08. > :29:12.at the moment, you have a clear majority to no longer be under the
:29:13. > :29:17.power of anti-democratic, unelected representation abroad, and you have
:29:18. > :29:24.your party, trying to block it. Look, I am not sure what he...
:29:25. > :29:27.Perhaps he has been having the cocktails to! Because my party is
:29:28. > :29:32.absolutely unified, unlike the Labour Party, behind the Prime
:29:33. > :29:38.Minister on delivering Brexit... Not in how it should be delivered. In a
:29:39. > :29:41.way that does not impoverish this country for the sake of some
:29:42. > :29:45.ideology that should be chucked into the annals of history. We need a
:29:46. > :29:51.smart Brexit that works for the country.
:29:52. > :29:58.You say you want to unleash a direct democracy revolution and you have
:29:59. > :30:05.conceded there is a lot of abuse going on towards you and Diane
:30:06. > :30:11.James. And bullying. And bullying, people are standing down because of
:30:12. > :30:15.a lack of support for the party and alleged bullying. Even Suzanne Evans
:30:16. > :30:18.has said she was bullied. This sounds like an impossible task to
:30:19. > :30:24.deal with, even if you became leader. How would you do it? The
:30:25. > :30:28.fact is not to get too personal here. My whole life I have been
:30:29. > :30:36.committed to challenges where people have told me it was impossible. I
:30:37. > :30:42.relish the opportunity of going up against some of these bullies. What
:30:43. > :30:47.about the investigation on the financial front? Allegations that
:30:48. > :30:50.they accepted unlawful donations during the Brexit referendum. What
:30:51. > :30:56.have you got to say about the enquiry? I am not privy to what went
:30:57. > :31:00.on, but on the basis of what I have learnt about certain people, these
:31:01. > :31:04.things can be resolved at a later stage once we have been elected and
:31:05. > :31:09.we can look properly at what has gone on in the past. On the basis of
:31:10. > :31:13.what I have come to understand about the morality of some of the people
:31:14. > :31:19.opposing me, it would not surprise me if certain abuses had happened.
:31:20. > :31:24.You would not be surprised if there was financial impropriety. But is
:31:25. > :31:28.the party broke? I am not privy to the financial details. The official
:31:29. > :31:33.position is we are not, but I do not know what the answer is. You do not
:31:34. > :31:36.know what you might be taking on. What do you think about Donald Trump
:31:37. > :31:42.asking Nigel Farage to be Ambassador to Washington? We need to say thank
:31:43. > :31:47.you to that, but we would prefer Nigel Farage to be the US ambassador
:31:48. > :31:48.to the European Union. That would be a better role.
:31:49. > :32:00.They call them Walter Mitty is, people who took the public by
:32:01. > :32:04.wearing war medals that they have not earned. On Wednesday a Private
:32:05. > :32:08.members Bill championed by the Tory MP Gareth Johnson will get its
:32:09. > :32:12.second reading in the Commons. He wants to make it a crime punishable
:32:13. > :32:15.with a prison sentence of up to three months. He has got some
:32:16. > :32:22.But weighed down by 14 medals, rather than his own conscience,
:32:23. > :32:32.Those 180 decibels silenced after someone found
:32:33. > :32:37.out those medals on his chest had been awarded to someone else.
:32:38. > :32:39.It is exactly the sort of thing Gareth Johnson
:32:40. > :32:42.I think people need to have confidence that
:32:43. > :32:46.when they see people wearing medals, that they have been
:32:47. > :32:48.legitimately awarded, and I think the law as it
:32:49. > :32:51.stands at the moment, because it doesn't ban people
:32:52. > :32:54.wearing medals that they haven't earned, doesn't achieve that,
:32:55. > :32:57.but what we need to ensure is it doesn't undermine the wonderful
:32:58. > :33:01.custom we have got in this country of family members wearing medals
:33:02. > :33:04.from loved ones who have fallen in previous wars, that's something
:33:05. > :33:10.Just down the road in Greenhithe, the Royal British Legion, no less,
:33:11. > :33:15.were duped by a member who pretended he had been in the Paris.
:33:16. > :33:25.Totally embarrassed as far as the branch is concerned.
:33:26. > :33:33.Because we respect and stand for the RBL, is what it is.
:33:34. > :33:38.And he just brought shame on this branch.
:33:39. > :33:41.But it turns out there are plenty of Walter Mitty
:33:42. > :33:46.People who dupe others into thinking they have a life a bit more
:33:47. > :33:50.So much so, there's even an online group who make it their business
:33:51. > :33:55.And they are so secretive, they won't go on camera
:33:56. > :33:59.The only way I can do an interview is on Facebook.
:34:00. > :34:03.They say they're currently investigating around 70 cases.
:34:04. > :34:06.Having outed over 300 and the last few years.
:34:07. > :34:10.These Walter Mittys do it, they say, to con out of money
:34:11. > :34:16.The group welcomes the proposed change in the law.
:34:17. > :34:21.James Glancy was a captain in the Royal Marines and was awarded
:34:22. > :34:23.one of the highest bravery medals for service in Afghanistan,
:34:24. > :34:28.He now runs a risk management company and is
:34:29. > :34:33.He is sceptical about change in the law.
:34:34. > :34:35.I think it's going too far to suggest someone
:34:36. > :34:40.I think it's really important to look at what's going
:34:41. > :34:43.on with someone that is actually pretending that they
:34:44. > :34:51.There may well be a serious mental health problem and actually
:34:52. > :34:54.that person just has low self-esteem, they are not a threat
:34:55. > :34:58.to the public and they actually need professional help.
:34:59. > :35:02.His bill has the backing of senior ministers, including
:35:03. > :35:05.the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon.
:35:06. > :35:08.It goes before the Commons on Friday.
:35:09. > :35:19.And we've been joined in the studio by the chairman
:35:20. > :35:25.And the Armed Forces Minister Mike Penning.
:35:26. > :35:36.An offence should be created, but that is not existing legislation.
:35:37. > :35:40.There is existing legislation for fraud, but what the legislation will
:35:41. > :35:47.bring forward, and the whole government will back this on Friday.
:35:48. > :35:52.What about the MOD? The legislation was already on the statute book for
:35:53. > :35:56.medals of valour. These are people who have been awarded Valerie
:35:57. > :35:59.medals, the military Cross like that, and then wear them
:36:00. > :36:05.inappropriately, and that is an insult to those who so bravely were
:36:06. > :36:11.awarded them on behalf of the Queen. Fraud we can deal with, that these
:36:12. > :36:17.are Valerie medals. We are bringing it back to the same criteria. Many
:36:18. > :36:23.people will understand the hurt brought on by Walter Mitty type
:36:24. > :36:27.people wearing them. But is it going too far by wanting to imprison
:36:28. > :36:32.people for falsely wearing these medals? Is that not a bit too
:36:33. > :36:36.severe? That would be the maximum sentence and that is the identical
:36:37. > :36:44.centres that was there in 2006. Does it make it right? Yes, but the hurt,
:36:45. > :36:47.the deceit. I am no hero, I served in the Armed Forces, but these are
:36:48. > :36:52.different people we are talking about. These people have gone beyond
:36:53. > :36:57.the call of duty and got a gallantry medal and somebody is impersonating
:36:58. > :37:01.them. In the past the Ministry of Defence said it did not want to
:37:02. > :37:05.discourage relatives wearing medals earned by a deceased relative of
:37:06. > :37:10.theirs. It would be difficult to distinguish between what you might
:37:11. > :37:20.call fantasists and relatives. As you know, I have British Army
:37:21. > :37:22.members in my constituency and I was at a remembrance parade in Tidworth
:37:23. > :37:31.in my garrison town. We are not talking about proud widows or sons
:37:32. > :37:36.were in bed parents' or partners' medals, we are talking about people
:37:37. > :37:39.who deliberately go out and impersonate people. I am surprised
:37:40. > :37:48.it was ever removed from the statute book. Is it a big issue that there
:37:49. > :37:53.are so many people doing it? It is a big issue. Loved ones have always
:37:54. > :37:59.been entitled to wear medals. I wore my grandfather's. But it does not
:38:00. > :38:04.matter to me whether it is one person, or a 1000 people. We will
:38:05. > :38:11.take it into consideration if there is a mental health illness. In most
:38:12. > :38:16.cases this is Walter Mitty territory, people claiming to have
:38:17. > :38:19.gained gallantry medals, wearing them on parade which is an insult to
:38:20. > :38:24.those who have served their country and been awarded those medals. We do
:38:25. > :38:31.not know how wide it is and how big an issue it is. But we heard from a
:38:32. > :38:34.former Royal Marine in the film effectively saying there are more
:38:35. > :38:40.important things to be worrying about in terms of defence. It is
:38:41. > :38:44.underfunded. Some people are likely to suffer from mental health issues,
:38:45. > :38:49.but the issue of funding is more important than this? Of course, and
:38:50. > :38:54.making sure the Armed Forces have the right kit and we have the right
:38:55. > :38:59.numbers is imported. But you must not underestimate how difficult this
:39:00. > :39:02.is for families of loved ones who have done the job and gone beyond
:39:03. > :39:08.the call of duty and were issued medals. We are not stopping widows
:39:09. > :39:15.or families, but we are stopping people impersonating heroes. If you
:39:16. > :39:19.kill so strongly, why doesn't the government introduced legislation
:39:20. > :39:25.itself? A Private member has brought that forward as a backbencher and we
:39:26. > :39:30.should encourage that. Absolutely. What happens if it does not get
:39:31. > :39:34.through? We will look at that again and it will have the full backing of
:39:35. > :39:39.the government. I will sit on the committee to make sure the view is
:39:40. > :39:42.there. I want to encourage backbenchers to engage in
:39:43. > :39:47.legislation because that is what we are here for, to represent our
:39:48. > :39:51.communities. It is still quite precarious going through the Private
:39:52. > :39:56.members Bill system. Will the government bring forward
:39:57. > :40:01.legislation? We will look at that an government time, but there is time
:40:02. > :40:04.for this and that it is why it will be here on Friday and the government
:40:05. > :40:08.encourages backbenchers to bring forward things that really matter to
:40:09. > :40:12.Thousands of passengers on Southern railways faced fresh misery this
:40:13. > :40:14.morning as another 48 hour strike hit the network.
:40:15. > :40:16.Since April a series of stoppages has paralysed Southern rail services
:40:17. > :40:19.across London and the home counties, with operator Govia Thameslink
:40:20. > :40:23.and the RMT union locked in a disagreement about the role
:40:24. > :40:29.In a sign that there is little hope of an end to the disruption,
:40:30. > :40:32.the RMT says it's planning further strikes next month.
:40:33. > :40:34.We can talk now to our Transport Correspondent,
:40:35. > :40:41.Richard Westcott, who has been following the dispute.
:40:42. > :40:48.Briefly, tell us the background to today's strike. Basically it comes
:40:49. > :40:53.down to a sticking point these two sides have been Rowan about since
:40:54. > :40:58.April and they have not resolved it. They are nowhere near resolving it
:40:59. > :41:03.now. It is about the role of that second person on the train, the
:41:04. > :41:06.conductor, also known as the guard. The parent company want to change
:41:07. > :41:11.the role of that person so they do not have a safety critical job,
:41:12. > :41:16.effectively it is not the person who is closing and opening the doors and
:41:17. > :41:21.making sure everyone is clear of the doors. They want the driver to take
:41:22. > :41:25.over that role. Sutherland says it frees up that second person on the
:41:26. > :41:29.train to go up and down and make sure everybody is OK and to check
:41:30. > :41:35.fares and make sure people are paying their fares. But critically
:41:36. > :41:39.it also means they say that in an emergency if a conductor rings in
:41:40. > :41:44.thick or there was a problem, the train can still go with just the
:41:45. > :41:49.driver on board. They say a lot of their delays, and apart from the
:41:50. > :41:53.strikes, they have the worst delay record in the country anyway, it is
:41:54. > :41:57.down to the fact that the train cannot move unless there is this
:41:58. > :42:01.safety critical second person on board at the moment and they say it
:42:02. > :42:14.is causing all kinds of problems. A train might be in a station and the
:42:15. > :42:16.conductor is not there and the train stays on the platform and the driver
:42:17. > :42:19.cannot get onto their next job. It is all about the role of the second
:42:20. > :42:23.person on board. The RMT are calling for the government to intervene. Is
:42:24. > :42:26.that likely? Who knows what is going on beehive the scenes? The
:42:27. > :42:32.government will always say it is down to a private company and a
:42:33. > :42:36.union. But this is a different franchise. It is an management
:42:37. > :42:41.franchise and GTR take a feed from the government and run the franchise
:42:42. > :42:47.because it is difficult to run. It is the government that takes the
:42:48. > :42:52.money from the fares. Why is that significant? It means when you get
:42:53. > :42:56.disruption and strikes, it is the government that takes the financial
:42:57. > :43:04.hit. The government has a long-term goal of making more trains driver
:43:05. > :43:07.only operated on future franchises. Effectively behind the scenes the
:43:08. > :43:13.accusation is the government is pulling the strings. They are saying
:43:14. > :43:18.it is a battle they have to win so that in future franchises they have
:43:19. > :43:22.this which is potentially more flexible and cheaper to run.
:43:23. > :43:27.Meanwhile, the union have put their own line in the sand about driver
:43:28. > :43:31.only operated trains as well. This is a test-bed for what goes on on
:43:32. > :43:34.the railways all across the country the future.
:43:35. > :43:37.We've been joined by the shadow transport secretary Andy McDonald.
:43:38. > :43:46.Claire Perry, you have had a role in some of these in your previous job.
:43:47. > :43:50.Picking up on Richard's point, is the government pulling the strings
:43:51. > :43:53.behind the scenes? Have you got a clear agenda because when it comes
:43:54. > :43:57.to future franchises the government wants to make sure they will be
:43:58. > :44:03.driver only trains and they will not be a need for a conductor? There is
:44:04. > :44:07.no untoward agenda. What has been clear for many years is that
:44:08. > :44:12.technology on the railway is evolving and more than 40% of trains
:44:13. > :44:17.run with the driver basically controlling the doors and with all
:44:18. > :44:21.the safety critical cameras. The decision was made that new trains
:44:22. > :44:26.would be bought for this franchise and those are the trains were the
:44:27. > :44:30.driver operates the doors. One of the things I have found difficult
:44:31. > :44:35.about this dispute, and Richard is right, this is a tough franchise
:44:36. > :44:39.because there has been a tonne of investment were going on. One of the
:44:40. > :44:44.reasons I resigned was because of this. People say it happened long
:44:45. > :44:50.before you, but it happened on my watch. You said at the time your
:44:51. > :44:55.resignation would not help the situation, so why did you resign? I
:44:56. > :44:59.felt I should take some level of accountability because I had been
:45:00. > :45:04.trying to sort it out and we still left people with delays and strikes.
:45:05. > :45:09.The union has conceded that the second person on the train can be
:45:10. > :45:14.used as a conductor. They do not have to operate the train. To
:45:15. > :45:18.continue to strike like this and disrupt working people getting to
:45:19. > :45:22.and from work is malicious in the extreme. The problem and he has got
:45:23. > :45:27.is his party have taken enormous donations from the RMT and continues
:45:28. > :45:30.to do so and it is difficult for the Labour Party to speak out for
:45:31. > :45:35.customers. They have been speaking with the union voice.
:45:36. > :45:42.Are you speaking with the union was because you are financially linked
:45:43. > :45:48.to them and therefore cannot be independent? I am speaking on behalf
:45:49. > :45:54.of passengers and focusing upon their safety. These are safety
:45:55. > :45:58.critical roles we are talking about, and to compromise on safety on our
:45:59. > :46:03.Railways is an abrogation of responsibility. These are hugely
:46:04. > :46:08.important issues, people feel vulnerable, we had a derailment at
:46:09. > :46:11.Watford not many weeks ago, it was safely to the back row safety
:46:12. > :46:17.critically trained guide to evacuated those trains, and to
:46:18. > :46:22.dismiss this, in this be brought in Parliament, to compromise on safety
:46:23. > :46:26.is an outrage. But the second person on the train, as you know, has been
:46:27. > :46:33.guaranteed a job for the duration of this franchise. They have been
:46:34. > :46:35.guaranteed that they will still be the safety critical person, they
:46:36. > :46:42.just weren't pressed the button to shut the doors. This has been a
:46:43. > :46:46.sticking point. I have done a series of interviews about this issue and
:46:47. > :46:50.just to be clear, you still want to see conductors, or guards, on
:46:51. > :46:58.trains, who will operate the doors. I have also been on trains where the
:46:59. > :47:02.doors have big problems, and this is with a guard there as well as a
:47:03. > :47:05.driver. You want to see them remain, even though the technology is there
:47:06. > :47:10.for them to be operated automatically. Despatching a train
:47:11. > :47:15.from a platform is the most critical stage of a journey, clear
:47:16. > :47:18.understands it, to put the onus of responsibility on a driver who has
:47:19. > :47:23.to look at 12 screens the size of mobile phones, we have already seen
:47:24. > :47:26.the safety board say that the driver only operation in the circumstances
:47:27. > :47:34.makes an accident more likely to happen and be more severe. Why would
:47:35. > :47:39.we ignore...? Every tube train, by the way, runs with the technology...
:47:40. > :47:42.But they are different. The problem is we have been having this debate
:47:43. > :47:47.for many months. Millions of people are trying to get to work on a very
:47:48. > :47:50.tough franchise. And it's just beyond belief that the unions won't
:47:51. > :47:56.come forward with a proposal. They have done that. They have accepted a
:47:57. > :48:01.new role for the second staff member and they still want to strike over
:48:02. > :48:07.Christmas, that is... What would Labour do, how would you resolve
:48:08. > :48:09.this? If I was Secretary of State, I would be intervened, bringing the
:48:10. > :48:15.RMT and the franchise holder round the table immediately. But what you
:48:16. > :48:20.be suggesting? There is a proposal on the table whether a moratorium,
:48:21. > :48:25.that the safety critical operations that this new role of on-board
:48:26. > :48:30.supervisor, and then a further period of negotiation for the new
:48:31. > :48:33.protocols. It was a gift by the RMT and they have deliberately turned
:48:34. > :48:36.that down because you and I both know, Claire, there are people
:48:37. > :48:43.working in your former Department who are determined to have a dustup.
:48:44. > :48:49.Let clear answer that. We know who that is, Claire. It's Peter
:48:50. > :48:53.Wilkinson. He said at the Aslef conference that he stood shoulder to
:48:54. > :48:59.shoulder on this, here is the problem, we have brought trains,
:49:00. > :49:02.ordered under the Labour government, brand-new trains, which provide 40%
:49:03. > :49:09.more seats for these people who are being squeezed every day. Those
:49:10. > :49:13.trains are engineered, so the driver opens the doors. So what Andy is
:49:14. > :49:18.suggesting is that somehow those trains are retrofitted so the guard
:49:19. > :49:22.opens them or we pay for somebody to be indifferent captive press the
:49:23. > :49:28.doors, it's just madness. This is disrupting millions... What do you
:49:29. > :49:38.think is happening to the franchise system as a whole, is a broken? Yes.
:49:39. > :49:43.What should replace it? I know that Andy is a fan of nationalisation,
:49:44. > :49:46.but to me it is not an issue over who owns the railways, it is an
:49:47. > :49:49.issue that we have a fragmented system where the trains and track
:49:50. > :49:55.and rolling stock and operator are not put together. And I'm afraid,
:49:56. > :50:01.this is part of the reason I stepped down, that it is is time for a new
:50:02. > :50:04.unified solution. The other thing we agree on is whether it is British
:50:05. > :50:10.rail or privatised, the customer has always come last on the trains. In
:50:11. > :50:13.my time in the department, the amount of time I spent trying to
:50:14. > :50:18.make sure that we run the trains on time, we didn't have a fake measure,
:50:19. > :50:26.that customers matter. Should Network Rail be disbanded? It is not
:50:27. > :50:34.an art at about the unions, this issue... Stop demonising the
:50:35. > :50:39.unions... I think the many of the unions who might have had five or
:50:40. > :50:42.six franchise operators in the last 20 years, I can understand why they
:50:43. > :50:49.feel no loyalty to the company they are working for. On that basis, is
:50:50. > :50:53.renationalisation relief the answer? Because it is popular with some
:50:54. > :51:01.sections of the voting public and in the Labour Party. But you have
:51:02. > :51:07.colleagues who are not convinced. It is Labour Party policy that we bring
:51:08. > :51:10.the railways back on the public ownership. Principally because there
:51:11. > :51:15.are so much money leaking out of the system and we have an appalling
:51:16. > :51:22.service, look at what we have on Sofyen, who run the most appalling
:51:23. > :51:27.service. British rail was more efficient in the years ahead of
:51:28. > :51:31.privatisation them since. If we had a fraction of the investment that
:51:32. > :51:35.has gone into the railways since privatisation, it would be a gold
:51:36. > :51:39.standard. We have to look at the future not the past. There are
:51:40. > :51:42.successful cases of the state bidding for franchises, we had the
:51:43. > :51:45.east that railway line, that was deemed a success, would you not
:51:46. > :51:56.support that sort of role for the state? I think it's August almost a
:51:57. > :51:59.false argument. We have a national railway asset, the issue is who
:52:00. > :52:03.actually runs the trains and the track. Whether it is a public sector
:52:04. > :52:09.operator, and the last thing I feel Andy Woodward is my former civil
:52:10. > :52:13.servants running a franchise, which was what was happening, we know the
:52:14. > :52:20.private sector could deliver... The private sector, are you saying no
:52:21. > :52:25.private sector involvement at all in the railways? I'm saying bring the
:52:26. > :52:28.franchise is back in public ownership, let's have the success
:52:29. > :52:33.stories we had an East Coast, let's replicate that around the country,
:52:34. > :52:36.focus on passengers and the taxpayer getting the best value for money.
:52:37. > :52:40.The question was what object in the Government Chief Whip's
:52:41. > :52:42.office is said to strike fear into the hearts
:52:43. > :52:53.or d) a signed photograph of Ann Widdecombe?
:52:54. > :52:59.So, Claire, what's the correct answer?
:53:00. > :53:09.Well, it's actually see-macro. They signed photograph of and would come
:53:10. > :53:13.in a bonnet is probably a scary prospect! I'm sure she speaks highly
:53:14. > :53:17.of you! Yes, the Government's Chief Whip
:53:18. > :53:19.Gavin Williamson has revealed that he keeps a one-year-old pet
:53:20. > :53:23.tarantula on the desk in his office. The spider is named Cronus
:53:24. > :53:26.after a Greek god who toppled his father by castrating him
:53:27. > :53:32.with a sickle. Mr Williamson told the Telegraph
:53:33. > :53:35.he's had Cronus since he was a spider-ling,
:53:36. > :53:38.so he has a "very paternal He said, "It's very much the same
:53:39. > :53:43.sort of love and care that I give He also said that Cronus
:53:44. > :53:49.is "a perfect example of an incredibly clean,
:53:50. > :53:53.ruthless killer". Sadly Gavin Williamson wasn't
:53:54. > :53:57.available to join us today. Instead we're joined
:53:58. > :53:59.by the playwright James Graham who has researched the dark arts
:54:00. > :54:01.of the parliamentary whipping And we've also been joined by George
:54:02. > :54:23.the tarantula and his professional This is a first for me. Please keep
:54:24. > :54:28.Georgina in the confines of her box! First of all, James, you have
:54:29. > :54:33.interviewed living works, you have done a play about the mid-1970s
:54:34. > :54:39.government, what do you make of the current Chief Whip having a
:54:40. > :54:46.tarantula... You don't need to bring any closer! And don't put her on the
:54:47. > :54:53.desk! If you can concentrate... That's my first tarantula ever! I
:54:54. > :54:58.spent my playwriting life imitating the different tactics whips have
:54:59. > :55:03.used, in the 1970s, when the play is set, it was the famous age of safes
:55:04. > :55:09.with secret in the, with the Prime Minister... Birthday as the code,
:55:10. > :55:15.this was the age of bringing... And they will surely dying. All the
:55:16. > :55:20.tactics, just to survive. The symbolism of a tarantula makes sense
:55:21. > :55:25.to me. Don't you think it's taking it a little bit too far? It feels
:55:26. > :55:29.like the sort of James Bond villains or something, here I am, stroking my
:55:30. > :55:35.tarantula, if you don't vote the way I want you to! They make great pets,
:55:36. > :55:39.think it's a great thing to have. In a small area, they do very well,
:55:40. > :55:43.they live a long time, they are poisonous, like every spider, she
:55:44. > :55:47.has a really big set of gangs, you have to have respect for them but
:55:48. > :55:57.they make great pets. She obviously likes you, which is a relief. Have
:55:58. > :56:00.you seen his tarantula? We no longer have these wonderful tours of
:56:01. > :56:04.patronage and bullying, when I was there, the whip's office was a third
:56:05. > :56:11.e-mail which change things. Did anyone have scary creatures? If it
:56:12. > :56:16.is now growing our pet to work time, I will bring my rescue cats, my
:56:17. > :56:22.office is full of mice so why not. I find the name rather interesting and
:56:23. > :56:27.symbolic as a sort of match a statement. I know and Milton, the
:56:28. > :56:32.DBD Chief Whip, will keep Cronus and the chief on the straight and
:56:33. > :56:36.narrow. I think it's interesting because the people I have spoken to,
:56:37. > :56:40.the whips in the last 510 years, there has been an attempt to lose
:56:41. > :56:43.that mythology around the dark arts and make it more of a human resource
:56:44. > :56:49.office, where you manage your members, but really... That's what
:56:50. > :56:52.we say! The symbolism is interesting, I'm sure it is a bit
:56:53. > :56:57.mischievous and knowing and playful, but of course Kevin Williamson is
:56:58. > :57:03.called the baby faced assassin he's young and sweet looking. In his
:57:04. > :57:08.defence, he did have Cronus long before he became Chief Whip. He was
:57:09. > :57:14.made Chief Whip in the summer, I think this predates his assent. What
:57:15. > :57:17.you think about a creature like a tarantula being used as perhaps
:57:18. > :57:26.political pressure on MPs? Is better than a goldfish! I think spiders I
:57:27. > :57:30.just don't, people hate spiders, if people take interest, why not? Do
:57:31. > :57:35.you think it will persuade people to change their minds? I think it might
:57:36. > :57:39.do, think they are gorgeous creatures, they need respect, he can
:57:40. > :57:48.sit and look despite all day long. Would it change your mind if he
:57:49. > :57:53.thought out Cronus and said... I can vote the way I would like to know
:57:54. > :57:57.I'm on the backbenches. It does show that MPs have an interesting side to
:57:58. > :58:02.them. I think Richard have a House of Commons, like we sometimes do in
:58:03. > :58:07.the church... Maybe a bit library! I heard about that when I was in
:58:08. > :58:14.Calcutta, a packed library possibly could take them home for the
:58:15. > :58:19.weekend. Any other whips who have had animals in their offices? I
:58:20. > :58:27.asked around and couldn't find any. There was a stuffed Aral. Obviously
:58:28. > :58:34.many members have cats. And people bring their dogs in. What about
:58:35. > :58:44.snakes? I knew you were going to say that. I considered vaguely see she's
:58:45. > :58:47.cute. When they shed their skin, you have an exact replica and you can
:58:48. > :58:50.put it on the shelf. Perhaps Georgina would like to go back into
:58:51. > :58:53.her box, thank you for bringing her in.