:00:38. > :00:41.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.It's a big day at the Supreme Court, where judges are deciding
:00:46. > :00:48.whether Parliament's consent is required before ministers can
:00:49. > :00:52.The four-day hearing is being broadcast live,
:00:53. > :00:58.It's auf Wiedersehen to him, and arrivederci to him,
:00:59. > :01:01.as the far right challenger for the Austrian presidency
:01:02. > :01:03.is defeated and the Italian Prime Minister bows out
:01:04. > :01:10.A report raises the alarm over social integration in the UK today.
:01:11. > :01:13.We've been talking to its author Louise Casey and she isn't
:01:14. > :01:18.We can't expect, with the high levels of immigration we've been
:01:19. > :01:24.having, for integration just to take care of itself.
:01:25. > :01:28.And from shouts of "lock her up" to the Brexit debate at its most
:01:29. > :01:31.heated, has 2016 seen politicians be even ruder and more insulting
:01:32. > :01:43.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:44. > :01:45.of the programme today, two MPs who would never hurl
:01:46. > :01:55.insults at each other on national television.
:01:56. > :01:59.Although you should have heard them just before we came on air!
:02:00. > :02:01.It's the Conservative MP and now author Nadine Dorries,
:02:02. > :02:03.and Labour's Shadow International Trade Secretary, Barry Gardiner.
:02:04. > :02:07.First today, let's talk about the results from yesterday's
:02:08. > :02:10.Prime Minister Matteo Renzi has said he will resign
:02:11. > :02:19.after losing the vote, which he called over his plans
:02:20. > :02:22.for constitutional reform but which came to be seen as a chance
:02:23. > :02:24.to register discontent with Mr Renzi and establishment politics.
:02:25. > :02:27.The result is being seen by some as a blow to the European Union
:02:28. > :02:29.because several of the leading opposition parties are opposed
:02:30. > :02:32.to Italy's continuing membership of the single currency although not
:02:33. > :02:38.In the short term there are also serious concerns over the financial
:02:39. > :02:42.Here's Matteo Renzi speaking earlier.
:02:43. > :02:44.TRANSLATION: Today's Italian democracy is based
:02:45. > :02:50.When we asked a confidence vote, we proposed to simplify the system,
:02:51. > :02:53.eliminate separate assemblies, reduce the cost of politics
:02:54. > :02:57.and broaden the areas of direct democracy.
:02:58. > :03:00.This is the reform that we brought to a referendum.
:03:01. > :03:05.I'm sorry, but I go away without regrets.
:03:06. > :03:09.Because if democracy wins, and "No" wins, it is also true
:03:10. > :03:13.that we have fought the good fight with passion and determination.
:03:14. > :03:15.What was obvious and evident from day one,
:03:16. > :03:28.It backfired for Matteo Renzi. Some would say that political absurdity
:03:29. > :03:34.in Italy is business as usual. They have had 63 governments since 1945.
:03:35. > :03:38.How significant is the vote for the rest of Europe? It is significant
:03:39. > :03:42.because it was a referendum and it was on a constitutional matter. It
:03:43. > :03:46.is quite indicative of what is happening across the European Union.
:03:47. > :03:51.We knew the EU wasn't working. David Cameron tried to reorganise it. He
:03:52. > :03:55.tried to change things and they were not playing ball with him and we
:03:56. > :04:00.ended up with our own referendum. We were probably first to go but I
:04:01. > :04:02.think we will see ricochets across the European Union, where people are
:04:03. > :04:07.actually using their democratic mandate and their voice to express
:04:08. > :04:11.their dissatisfaction with what is happening in their own country. It
:04:12. > :04:16.is Italy now. I wouldn't be surprised if it is Holland or
:04:17. > :04:20.somebody else next. What we are seeing is the people, the
:04:21. > :04:24.electorate, standing up and letting their dissatisfaction be very
:04:25. > :04:28.well-known. This was a constitutional reform referendum. He
:04:29. > :04:37.made it about himself, Matteo Renzi. Do you agree that this is also a
:04:38. > :04:40.chance to kick the EU even though the movement which has increased in
:04:41. > :04:45.recent years is against the single currency and not the EU per se? I am
:04:46. > :04:49.not sure that this is specifically about the EU. I do think it has much
:04:50. > :04:54.wider ramifications for the rest of us in the EU and those of us who
:04:55. > :05:01.will soon be out of it. Why? Because I think what is happening here is we
:05:02. > :05:05.are seeing a disaffection with the way in which politics as usual is
:05:06. > :05:11.conducted. For us specifically in the UK, I think what we are looking
:05:12. > :05:15.at here is even greater difficulty in going into a negotiating period.
:05:16. > :05:20.We have already seen that we have the German, the French and the Dutch
:05:21. > :05:23.elections next year. Now to have the Italian elections means actually
:05:24. > :05:28.doing the negotiating that we need to do to come out of the EU about
:05:29. > :05:33.our new relationship with the EU is going to be that much more
:05:34. > :05:36.difficult. Do you agree? Will it be harder to negotiate Brexit for
:05:37. > :05:40.Theresa May at her government rather than easier as a result of this? No.
:05:41. > :05:44.I don't know the answer to that and I don't think Barry does. I do know
:05:45. > :05:49.that Theresa May has a very clear set of objectives and I don't think
:05:50. > :05:52.it matters who is in power, whichever European state it is. We
:05:53. > :05:56.have our objectives and she will go to negotiate those and hopefully
:05:57. > :06:00.achieve them. Don't you think there could be a domino effect as Nadine
:06:01. > :06:05.Dorries said first of all? There could be a momentum building,
:06:06. > :06:10.whether it is about the EU or domestic politics. When you look at
:06:11. > :06:14.France and the possibility of Marine Le Pen being President, there is a
:06:15. > :06:20.broadly anti-EU movement on the right. I think it is an anti
:06:21. > :06:24.business as usual feeling. That is anti-EU for many people. That is
:06:25. > :06:27.right and it expresses itself in many ways. Stephen Hawking has been
:06:28. > :06:32.very interesting when he writes about this. Last week he penned an
:06:33. > :06:37.incredibly fascinating article going right into the politics and saying,
:06:38. > :06:42.look, all around the world, people are able to see what each other is
:06:43. > :06:46.doing, and they find that actually the inequalities in the world need
:06:47. > :06:49.to be addressed. He is saying that more people have access to a mobile
:06:50. > :06:54.phone in Africa than clean water, and that means that they can see the
:06:55. > :06:58.inequalities, they can see the financial markets, and exactly what
:06:59. > :07:02.is going on. That is the failure of successive governments including the
:07:03. > :07:06.current one. I don't think your average voter in Sunderland does the
:07:07. > :07:09.inequalities across the world. I think they just do what is happening
:07:10. > :07:12.on their doorstep and how the EU impact on them and their particular
:07:13. > :07:16.family. And that is why they went and cast their votes in the way that
:07:17. > :07:20.they did. I understand exactly what you are saying. It is a much more a
:07:21. > :07:26.writing intellectual argument to make. I am not sure that it actually
:07:27. > :07:35.distilled down and applies to the British people that voted in the EU
:07:36. > :07:40.referendum. Let's stick to the situation in Italy and ask our
:07:41. > :07:46.little correspondent Gavin Lee what happens next. They are trying to
:07:47. > :07:48.move as quickly as possible. The current President of Italy, for the
:07:49. > :07:53.past few hours we believe he has been meeting with Matteo Renzi, but
:07:54. > :07:58.he has not yet offered his full resignation, and he will do that
:07:59. > :08:02.this afternoon. Because the democratic party has still got the
:08:03. > :08:06.majority of government, if there is another interim leader, who can
:08:07. > :08:10.drive the support car through, given the worries and the volatility of
:08:11. > :08:14.the financial markets. We believe the man in the front line for that
:08:15. > :08:17.job at the moment is the finance minister, a technocrat, Mario Monti
:08:18. > :08:21.figure of time gone by, not known for his charisma but a man used to
:08:22. > :08:26.dealing with the banks of Italy and the vulnerability of the banks as
:08:27. > :08:30.well. That could be a possibility. Somebody the Italian media is
:08:31. > :08:35.talking about. We expect that to happen fairly quickly because of the
:08:36. > :08:40.unpredictability factor. The talk of a real crisis, I think this has been
:08:41. > :08:44.caused by a popular movement. If you talk to Italians and officials here,
:08:45. > :08:49.they say it is under control. This place has seen 63 governments in 70
:08:50. > :08:52.years. We have had the populism of Brexit and Donald Trump, but they
:08:53. > :08:55.think if they move quickly they can avoid panic. You are talking about a
:08:56. > :08:59.caretaker government, which would not be for the first time in Italy.
:09:00. > :09:06.When would elections be? Would they have to be new elections and if
:09:07. > :09:11.there were new elections, how well would 5-star Movement do? There are
:09:12. > :09:16.some ifs and buts there. At the moment nothing would be set to
:09:17. > :09:20.change. 2018 is when the elections are due. Matteo Renzi, if he can
:09:21. > :09:29.find a counterpart, let's say the finance minister, it depends on the
:09:30. > :09:35.ceiling. -- the feeling. Our people happy? The chameleon who became the
:09:36. > :09:38.leader of this party, he is calling for an early election and he
:09:39. > :09:42.believes his party is strong enough to take on the mantle. He compares
:09:43. > :09:45.himself in terms of popularity to the likes of Ukip in the UK and
:09:46. > :09:50.Donald Trump at that is as far as it goes. It is not an anti-immigration
:09:51. > :09:58.party, not a Eurosceptic. He wants to see changes on the Euro but he is
:09:59. > :10:02.distancing himself. There are factors affecting this. Initially
:10:03. > :10:04.everybody is worried about the financial situation in this place
:10:05. > :10:07.and potential contagion for the rest of the eurozone. Thank you.
:10:08. > :10:10.Let's talk now to the financial analyst Louise Cooper who's been
:10:11. > :10:12.looking at how the markets have been reacting to the referendum vote.
:10:13. > :10:19.As Gavin says, the political crisis to some extent could be described as
:10:20. > :10:22.business as usual. The real issue is the financial pressure now on Italy.
:10:23. > :10:29.And the reaction from the market has been very muted today. It has been
:10:30. > :10:33.factored in? Essentially. Italian stock market is actually up, which
:10:34. > :10:43.is extraordinary. It opens down about 2% but now it is up about
:10:44. > :10:46.4.5%. But the Italian -- 0.5%. At the Italian stock market is one of
:10:47. > :10:53.the worst performing. And if you look at Italian bikes, that is a big
:10:54. > :10:58.issue. The oldest bank in the world, their share price, and other bank
:10:59. > :11:02.share prices, down something like 85% year to date. In middle of
:11:03. > :11:09.capital raising, they are desperately trying to convert into
:11:10. > :11:13.equity. We have the Italian stock market, Italian banking shares,
:11:14. > :11:18.Italian bond markets. They thought this was going to happen. They had
:11:19. > :11:21.sold off before this. Right. But what is the risk of contagion or
:11:22. > :11:26.some kind of banking crisis like the one we saw a few years ago when
:11:27. > :11:29.there was a deep recession across Europe? Is a big difference right
:11:30. > :11:36.now is that we have central banks giving banks money, essentially.
:11:37. > :11:42.Will they bail out the Italian banks in trouble? There are two questions.
:11:43. > :11:45.First of all, are they facing a liquidity crisis? No. On Thursday we
:11:46. > :11:49.have the European Central Bank meeting and they are likely to
:11:50. > :11:53.announce more quantitative easing, which is quite important. Mario
:11:54. > :11:57.Draghi, the boss of the ECB, will be asked a lot about how many Italian
:11:58. > :12:01.bonds he has bought today. One of the key thing is you have political
:12:02. > :12:07.risk. What happens with political risk? Investors demand a higher
:12:08. > :12:10.interest rate for taking on the risk of lending to the Italian
:12:11. > :12:13.government. That has already happened. The Italian government for
:12:14. > :12:21.the first time in five years has got to pay more than Spain to borrow,
:12:22. > :12:26.and that shows you... Not something to boast about! But that has already
:12:27. > :12:30.happened. What is interesting is they are probably not paying as high
:12:31. > :12:33.interest as they really would, because you have got the European
:12:34. > :12:37.Central Bank in there doing quantitative easing, buying Italian
:12:38. > :12:41.bonds. In a way we can't really see the markets and what they think of
:12:42. > :12:44.this financial crisis because the central banks are distorting the
:12:45. > :12:49.market and that is the problem. What about the fate of the Euro in this?
:12:50. > :12:59.It has obviously fallen. People could be thinking this is a good
:13:00. > :13:03.time to go and buy Euros is, people here, that is. People talk about the
:13:04. > :13:10.collapse of sterling. It has recovered the worst of its loss. ?1
:13:11. > :13:22.used to buy 1 euro and now it is 1 euro so we have recovered about half
:13:23. > :13:30.of the losses. -- 1 euro and 20 cents. We have four big players
:13:31. > :13:33.having elections coming up. But the problem with currencies as they are
:13:34. > :13:40.relative. If you don't like the Euro, what do you buy? The yen?
:13:41. > :13:46.There are lots of problems globally. Do you buy sterling? But will there
:13:47. > :13:49.be pressure on the Euro? I don't see how there can't be. The European
:13:50. > :13:53.Central Bank is still printing money and when you print it that tends to
:13:54. > :13:57.devalue your currency. We will see what they say on Thursday but there
:13:58. > :14:01.is no sign of that coming to an end yet. The Italians were not the only
:14:02. > :14:05.ones to go to the polls over the weekend. Yesterday Austrian voters
:14:06. > :14:10.decided not to elect the far right candidate. Do you see that as good
:14:11. > :14:13.news for EU leaders? Yes, I think most EU leaders are very relieved.
:14:14. > :14:16.This would have been the first time there would have been a far right
:14:17. > :14:22.head of state in any European country. I think there is a relief
:14:23. > :14:27.that. We want the democratic will to be able to assert itself. Popular
:14:28. > :14:32.democracy is a good thing but when it spills into populism and spills
:14:33. > :14:35.into right-wing fascism, that is something that you're a pretty dusty
:14:36. > :14:41.to be very careful about India. Can I pick -- something that Europe does
:14:42. > :14:48.need to be careful about indeed. Can I pick up on the way that the ECB is
:14:49. > :14:52.printing money? In buying those bonds from Europe, they are going
:14:53. > :14:56.against their founding principles. That is why there is real concern
:14:57. > :15:00.about the stability of the eurozone as a currency. On that basis, one
:15:01. > :15:03.may argue they don't have an alternative if you want to keep some
:15:04. > :15:08.of these banks going in a big economy like Italy. That kind of
:15:09. > :15:12.financial instability could still destabilise here down the line. Can
:15:13. > :15:16.I make a point because what you have just said is fascinating? You
:15:17. > :15:24.explained it so easily! That is why we get her on! I feel very sorry for
:15:25. > :15:26.Italian people in this situation. They are paying more for their money
:15:27. > :15:35.and huge amounts of quantitative easing to this extent surely brings
:15:36. > :15:39.inflation. Am I right in saying that? It didn't here for quite a
:15:40. > :15:43.long period of time is I am the problem is that it didn't. That is
:15:44. > :15:50.the bizarre thing. It is opposed to bring in inflation and it never has.
:15:51. > :15:54.Also very peculiar. It is reminiscent of the old days in Italy
:15:55. > :15:59.when you could buy 1 million lire for the equivalent of ?1. That
:16:00. > :16:03.financial mixture put them in this situation and this seems startlingly
:16:04. > :16:07.like going back to those days again of political instability. We will
:16:08. > :16:11.find out how it unfolds over the next few months. Lots to talk about
:16:12. > :16:13.in 2017 as well. We thought 2016 was busy!
:16:14. > :16:18.The question for today is all about one of a number of government
:16:19. > :16:20.memos which were leaked to yesterday's newspapers.
:16:21. > :16:23.One was a note telling ministers to, well, stop leaking to the papers.
:16:24. > :16:25.Another instructed ministers to stop calling Boris Johnson
:16:26. > :16:29.So what are they, according to the Mail on Sunday,
:16:30. > :16:34.a) Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.
:16:35. > :16:42.At the end of the show, Nadine and Barry will give
:16:43. > :16:48.Now, in the last hour, we've seen the opening of a landmark legal
:16:49. > :16:54.Over the next four days, the 11 justices at the Supreme Court
:16:55. > :16:56.will decide whether Parliament's consent is required before ministers
:16:57. > :17:01.That's the mechanism that means official Brexit negotiations can
:17:02. > :17:03.begin ahead of the UK's departure from the European Union.
:17:04. > :17:09.At the beginning of November, the High Court in England ruled
:17:10. > :17:12.that the Government does not have power under the Crown's prerogative
:17:13. > :17:15.to give notice pursuant to Article 50 for the UK to withdraw
:17:16. > :17:21.In other words, it took an Act of Parliament to get us
:17:22. > :17:24.into the Common Market in 1972 and it will take an Act
:17:25. > :17:30.This led to criticism of the high court judges by some parts
:17:31. > :17:33.of the press and some politicians, while the Government said it
:17:34. > :17:42.That appeal starts today and is expected to last most of the week.
:17:43. > :17:48.The original parties to the court case, investment manager
:17:49. > :17:50.Gina Miller and hairdresser Deir Tozetti Dos Santos, have been
:17:51. > :17:53.joined by lawyers for the Scottish and Welsh devolved administrations,
:17:54. > :17:57.The ten male and one female judges are expected to deliver
:17:58. > :18:06.If, as some commentators expect, the government loses,
:18:07. > :18:08.ministers will then bring forward a bill, possibly just 16 words long,
:18:09. > :18:11.which will then have to pass through both Houses of Parliament.
:18:12. > :18:14.So, the court began sitting just over an hour ago in Westminster,
:18:15. > :18:16.where, unusually in the British legal system, the hearing
:18:17. > :18:21.It began with the Government's top legal officer and Cabinet minister
:18:22. > :18:23.Jeremy Wright telling the court why they believed it was ministers,
:18:24. > :18:30.and not Parliament, who should start the UK's withdrawal from the EU.
:18:31. > :18:39.There is nothing in the wording of the European Communities Act or
:18:40. > :18:45.indeed in later legislation to inhibit withdrawal from the European
:18:46. > :18:48.Union treaties or subject it to a requirement of prior legislative
:18:49. > :18:53.authority. That therefore remains to be done by the Government in an
:18:54. > :18:57.exercise of well established prerogative powers. It is not as
:18:58. > :19:01.though Parliament has been short of opportunities to impose such
:19:02. > :19:12.restrictions if it wanted to. There has been legislation in 1978, 2002
:19:13. > :19:18.and 2008 and 2011 and 2015 where it could have done so and did not.
:19:19. > :19:25.Secondly, nowhere in the three acts that followed the Lisbon Treaty in
:19:26. > :19:29.2008, 2011 and 2015 is there any basis for inferring a restriction on
:19:30. > :19:35.the prerogative in relation to Article 50 to begin negotiations for
:19:36. > :19:38.withdrawal. On the contrary, we say close to the respective roles of
:19:39. > :19:43.government and legislature in this context has been given in each of
:19:44. > :19:48.these acts and the Government roll on Article 50 has been consciously
:19:49. > :19:49.served. That was some of the Government legal case.
:19:50. > :19:55.Our correspondent Rob Watson is at the Supreme Court now.
:19:56. > :19:59.Rob, we certainly heard outside the court earlier a fairly highly
:20:00. > :20:03.charged atmosphere and there is no doubt the Supreme Court is under the
:20:04. > :20:12.spotlight in every way. How do you assess it? It's interesting. If it
:20:13. > :20:18.was highly charged outside, inside, OJ Simpson it is not! It is pretty
:20:19. > :20:21.dry legal stuff. I hesitate to do this with all of those clever
:20:22. > :20:25.lawyers in there, but essentially we are at the point where the
:20:26. > :20:29.Government is making three points. Number one, when Parliament
:20:30. > :20:32.authorised the referendum, they didn't say that somehow they would
:20:33. > :20:35.have to come back to Parliament. They knew all along that it would be
:20:36. > :20:38.the Government that implemented the result of the referendum, which was
:20:39. > :20:43.clear, therefore the Government should just get on and do it. The
:20:44. > :20:48.second point being made by the Government is, look, if you go back
:20:49. > :20:51.a long time but also right up to modern times, prerogative, in other
:20:52. > :20:58.words the Government's ability to make foreign policy and treaties and
:20:59. > :21:02.unmake treaties is pretty clear, and that should apply now. And third,
:21:03. > :21:05.Parliament should not worry, it is still sovereign and will have a role
:21:06. > :21:13.in the unfolding of the Brexit process. Just not in triggering
:21:14. > :21:18.Article 50. Is that clear? Yes, end it now, tell them not to bother to
:21:19. > :21:21.sit for the rest of the week! On the other side, the critical issue that
:21:22. > :21:25.rights are embedded in the legislation that took us in and only
:21:26. > :21:31.Parliament can remove those rights. That is still holding for this case
:21:32. > :21:35.too, isn't it? That's certainly what is going to be put by the
:21:36. > :21:39.respondents, as they are known. They will repeat that, but the
:21:40. > :21:44.Government's lawyers are saying, hang on a minute, all that stuff is
:21:45. > :21:49.secondary, because the referendum made it clear, Parliament knew what
:21:50. > :21:52.it was doing when it passed the Bill authorising the referendum, and
:21:53. > :21:56.there was nothing in that bill saying, by the way, because the
:21:57. > :22:01.lights are going to be handed over, you need to come back to Parliament.
:22:02. > :22:05.We will hear later in the week from those saying no, hang on a minute,
:22:06. > :22:13.there are rights involved and therefore Parliament is sovereign.
:22:14. > :22:17.Thank you. Nadine Dorries, why shouldn't Parliament have a say? I
:22:18. > :22:24.think Parliament is going to have a say. Do you think that is right? I
:22:25. > :22:28.agree with the first point the Government is making in court, that
:22:29. > :22:32.we have the right to do this. This court case is almost academic,
:22:33. > :22:37.knowing that Labour are going to support Article 50 and vote for it.
:22:38. > :22:40.Of course they are going to, because if we don't, Paul Nuttall leading
:22:41. > :22:45.Ukip is going to take the charge into the labour heartlands in the
:22:46. > :22:49.north of England. Any Labour MP in the north, with the turnout and the
:22:50. > :22:54.vote they had to leave who would dare to vote against Article 50,
:22:55. > :22:58.given the resurgence we are about to see of Ukip, targeting those
:22:59. > :23:02.particular heartlands, would be a very brave and probably a very
:23:03. > :23:08.foolish MP. Given that Labour are going to support Article 50, this is
:23:09. > :23:14.almost academic. Parliament is going to vote it through anyway. Let Barry
:23:15. > :23:17.respond. Has Nadine Dorries summed it up correctly, that that is how
:23:18. > :23:22.Labour is going to react, and the reason why? What I find fascinating,
:23:23. > :23:27.Nadine seems to think this court case is about politics. It is not.
:23:28. > :23:32.This is a very important constitutional principle, which is
:23:33. > :23:38.simply this... Does the Prime Minister have the right to overturn
:23:39. > :23:41.a law passed by the sovereign Parliament, using the arbitrary
:23:42. > :23:45.power of the monarch? The High Court found that the Prime Minister did
:23:46. > :23:50.not have that right. They said the law created by Parliament can only
:23:51. > :23:54.be overturned by Parliament. That's A constitutional matter and actually
:23:55. > :24:02.it needs to be clarified irrespective of Brexit. Hang on...
:24:03. > :24:08.Two points to answer. You say it is academic, but do you agree that
:24:09. > :24:15.Parliament should have a say? No... You don't? This court case is being
:24:16. > :24:19.brought by a millionaire, Gina Miller, and 11 other millionaires.
:24:20. > :24:23.For every millionaire who has brought this court case, there are
:24:24. > :24:27.millions of Gerald Millers out there, who went into the booth in
:24:28. > :24:31.good faith and ticked the box to leave the European Union. They don't
:24:32. > :24:35.have millions of pounds to bring a court case and to argue a
:24:36. > :24:40.constitutional point. People are clear democratically about what they
:24:41. > :24:43.wanted, they won a democratic vote to leave the European Union and that
:24:44. > :24:50.is all that should matter. Is this just an attempt to frustrate them?
:24:51. > :24:54.This is absolutely spurious. The Labour Party, as Nadine well
:24:55. > :25:00.knows... Are you paying for that court case? Could you allow me the
:25:01. > :25:05.courtesy to reply to your extended diatribe? I and the whole of the
:25:06. > :25:12.Labour Party are very clear, our official position is clear, the vote
:25:13. > :25:16.took place, Remain lost the vote, we will leave the European Union. The
:25:17. > :25:21.debate in Parliament, the vote in Parliament must be about what the
:25:22. > :25:27.shape of leaving looks like, and there must be clarity on that. The
:25:28. > :25:31.Government is continually, and what Nadine is trying to do, is trying to
:25:32. > :25:35.confuse the issue, because the Government are confused and they
:25:36. > :25:39.have not decided what the shape of Leave looks like. If they have, they
:25:40. > :25:43.need to come to Parliament and say, this is what we propose to do. If
:25:44. > :25:46.that is consistent with all the things we were promised in the
:25:47. > :25:59.referendum, although we have heard from both Boris and... I can't
:26:00. > :26:04.remember. Liam Fox? David Davis? That's the one. Three of the things,
:26:05. > :26:12.they have now said, we may row back on paying money to the European
:26:13. > :26:15.Union... They haven't... There is a disagreement over whether or not
:26:16. > :26:21.having Paris free access to the single market might be worth paying
:26:22. > :26:28.for. -- tariff free access. Boris at the weekend... He just didn't rule
:26:29. > :26:33.anything out. Are you saying the Government has a clear and agreed
:26:34. > :26:37.strategy? Of course it dies. I would like to make the point that I do not
:26:38. > :26:44.expect Theresa made to put her cards on the table so that 27 member
:26:45. > :26:49.states... David Davis did not suggest it, he just didn't rule it
:26:50. > :26:55.out. But it is a red line for some people. Why didn't he rule it out?
:26:56. > :27:02.If it's a red line, and you believe it is, why didn't he rule it out?
:27:03. > :27:07.Some Tory MPs, Stuart Jackson said it would be a red line. Michael Gove
:27:08. > :27:12.stood in front of the five principles and said, these are the
:27:13. > :27:18.red lines. What people very clearly voted for was exiting the European
:27:19. > :27:24.Union, control of our borders come and access to the single market.
:27:25. > :27:27.That's what people voted for. It was very clear. When you say we don't
:27:28. > :27:32.know what Leave is going to look like... It's difficult not to talk
:27:33. > :27:40.over Nadine Muller because she never stops. -- Nadine because she never
:27:41. > :27:47.stops. People put their trust in the Government when they put their
:27:48. > :27:50.tick... The arguments were made very clearly during the referendum
:27:51. > :27:54.campaign, this is what it's going to look like. We will control our
:27:55. > :27:58.borders, control immigration and have access to the single market.
:27:59. > :28:02.People absolutely knew what they were voting for and that's what we
:28:03. > :28:06.are going to deliver. Jeremy Corbyn has said you are not going to vote
:28:07. > :28:12.against Article 50 being triggered under any circumstances. Does that
:28:13. > :28:21.mean you won't seek to amend the very short bill? Absolutely not. So
:28:22. > :28:25.you could delay...? Let him answer. We will have to see what bill the
:28:26. > :28:29.Government comes forward with, what shape it looks like. If it looks as
:28:30. > :28:35.though the Government is heading for a hard Brexit, which is not in the
:28:36. > :28:40.interests of British companies, workforce, it's going to take away
:28:41. > :28:44.jobs, reduce our economic benefits in this country... If those other
:28:45. > :28:48.things the Government is looking to do, we would look to amend that and
:28:49. > :28:52.there would be a vote in Parliament. What does that mean in practice? If
:28:53. > :28:59.you amended it, let's say because you wanted... It doesn't stop
:29:00. > :29:03.triggering Article 50. It would say Article 50 should be triggered on
:29:04. > :29:07.this basis rather than the basis of the Government has brought forward.
:29:08. > :29:11.That's why it is absolutely wrong of Nadine to continue to say that this
:29:12. > :29:15.is trying in some way to confound people who want to leave the
:29:16. > :29:18.European Union. I believe we should now leave the European Union,
:29:19. > :29:23.because that is what the public voted for, and that is also the
:29:24. > :29:26.official Labour Party position. But the Government, on that ballot
:29:27. > :29:30.paper, did not give people the right to determine what the shape of it
:29:31. > :29:36.would be, what it would look like when we came out. To take away jobs
:29:37. > :29:38.and reduce the economy... The Government was entrusted with the
:29:39. > :29:45.implementation of it, broadly speaking. Parliament was entrusted.
:29:46. > :29:50.Let's talk about the Lords. If they are difficult, as you stated let's
:29:51. > :29:54.say Labour votes for Article 50 to be triggered in the end of March
:29:55. > :29:57.timetable looks like it is being added to, what if there are problems
:29:58. > :30:07.in the Lord's? What should Theresa may do them? I don't like to high
:30:08. > :30:12.that he -- I don't like to hypothesise, if I were in the
:30:13. > :30:16.Lords... Everything changes on a daily basis. I think they are more
:30:17. > :30:20.worried about reform and the fact that if they go against a democratic
:30:21. > :30:26.decision of the British people, their position in the Lords would
:30:27. > :30:34.become even more tenuous in terms of their seats. They are not elected,
:30:35. > :30:39.of course. The former has failed by successive governments. If they
:30:40. > :30:44.choose to go against the will of the British people... Do you think the
:30:45. > :30:47.judges have strayed into political territory with this case? First in
:30:48. > :30:53.the High Court and now the Supreme Court? I go back to my substantive
:30:54. > :30:57.point. I don't believe this court case should be taking place, because
:30:58. > :31:02.I don't believe a group of millionaires... What about my
:31:03. > :31:08.question about judges? Do they have a right to rule on what is a legal
:31:09. > :31:14.case that has been put before them? Or are enemies of the people, as
:31:15. > :31:20.some of the press...? That's a very binary question which is quite
:31:21. > :31:22.extreme. We are where we are. These multimillionaires have challenged
:31:23. > :31:29.the British people and taken it to the courts, we have to abide by what
:31:30. > :31:31.the judges said. It is ironic that Nadine is talking about
:31:32. > :31:35.multimillionaires given that Ukip was backed by multi-millionaires...
:31:36. > :31:42.They are not challenging the decision. This court case, in the
:31:43. > :31:45.Supreme Court, is about a constitutional issue. It is
:31:46. > :31:50.politicians who have tried to politicise it, who put those
:31:51. > :31:55.articles into the press criticising, personally, the judges and trying to
:31:56. > :31:59.delve into their private lives. Is this the first time you have
:32:00. > :32:05.supported bankers, Barry, because they are paying for it? The judges
:32:06. > :32:09.have a job to do, which is a legal job about our Constitution. They
:32:10. > :32:12.should be allowed to get on with it without politicians trying to
:32:13. > :32:17.politicise it. We have a few more days of it to go.
:32:18. > :32:20.Louise Casey has been at the centre of government attempts to tackle
:32:21. > :32:22.some of the toughest social issues including inequality,
:32:23. > :32:24.worklessness and homelessness for more than a decade.
:32:25. > :32:26.Today she's published a long-awaited report into integration
:32:27. > :32:31.She says the authorities have sanctioned discrimination
:32:32. > :32:33.and harmful behaviour in the name of tolerance and multi-culturalism,
:32:34. > :32:36.while political leaders have been frightened to intervene for fear
:32:37. > :32:41.Ahead of the report's publication Louise Casey has
:32:42. > :32:43.been filming exclusively for the Daily Politics,
:32:44. > :33:02.For the past year, I've been travelling around the country coming
:33:03. > :33:04.to places just like this in south Manchester, talking to people,
:33:05. > :33:08.listening to people, about community cohesion and how
:33:09. > :33:11.we can look at integration in a different way, and particularly
:33:12. > :33:21.And what I've found is overall, as a population, we are becoming
:33:22. > :33:34.older, we are becoming less religious, we are becoming more
:33:35. > :33:37.liberal with a small L about things like gay rights
:33:38. > :33:41.And at the same time we are much more diverse than we used to be
:33:42. > :33:45.But the report that I'm releasing today shows that those in the Muslim
:33:46. > :33:48.communities are actually somewhat of an exception to that.
:33:49. > :33:49.On the whole, Muslim communities are younger,
:33:50. > :33:52.more devoutly religious and the fastest growing.
:33:53. > :33:55.And most worryingly, some women in those Muslim
:33:56. > :33:58.communities continue to suffer discrimination and outdated
:33:59. > :34:14.And in some northern towns like this, Muslim communities
:34:15. > :34:19.are becoming more concentrated, not less segregated.
:34:20. > :34:22.I was really struck by this street when I came to it.
:34:23. > :34:24.Down this side of the road there are five mosques,
:34:25. > :34:29.all built in incredibly close proximity to each other.
:34:30. > :34:33.On this side of the road you've still got a formerly
:34:34. > :34:38.Both communities living cheek by jowl, and sometimes that can
:34:39. > :34:47.I don't really blame either of the groups for that.
:34:48. > :34:49.It is entirely understandable and natural for people
:34:50. > :34:55.to want to live near others that are like themselves,
:34:56. > :34:57.but it is time for politicians, community leaders, public servants,
:34:58. > :35:01.religious leaders, to start to have honest conversations
:35:02. > :35:06.about the difficult issues that these raise.
:35:07. > :35:08.We can't expect with the high levels of immigration that we've been
:35:09. > :35:12.having for integration just to take care of itself.
:35:13. > :35:15.We've got to be better at managing that integration so that we live
:35:16. > :35:22.together as one community and not two.
:35:23. > :35:27.In one school I visited, the children in that school thought
:35:28. > :35:32.that up to 90% of the British population was Asian.
:35:33. > :35:35.That is simply no preparation for those children in terms
:35:36. > :35:38.of bringing them up in a Britain where eight out of ten
:35:39. > :35:44.And especially as they go out into a world where
:35:45. > :35:49.they still will face discrimination and disadvantage.
:35:50. > :35:52.So I'm worried about these kind of them-and-us divides,
:35:53. > :35:59.which is why I'm calling for today a bold new integration strategy,
:36:00. > :36:04.one that has significantly more English-language classes,
:36:05. > :36:11.more help for Muslim women and other women from ethnic minority groups,
:36:12. > :36:13.more mixing opportunities for all young people,
:36:14. > :36:16.no matter who they are, and greater expectations
:36:17. > :36:19.on all migrants that live here in the United Kingdom.
:36:20. > :36:28.In the current febrile atmosphere in this country,
:36:29. > :36:31.and to celebrate everything that is good about British
:36:32. > :36:35.diversity, we've got to focus much more and do much more on what brings
:36:36. > :36:37.us together as one community, one set of values, one
:36:38. > :36:39.set of institutions, and not focus on what
:36:40. > :36:48.And a failure to do so only leaves the ground open for on the one hand
:36:49. > :36:54.Islamist extremists and on the other the extreme far right.
:36:55. > :37:07.The report was commissioned by David Cameron, the former Prime Minister.
:37:08. > :37:14.How much support have you had from Theresa May? It was actually jointly
:37:15. > :37:17.commissioned. The report was going into David Cameron and Theresa May
:37:18. > :37:22.and now it will go into the new Prime Minister. She is as alive to
:37:23. > :37:27.these issues as David Cameron was. There have been reports that Number
:37:28. > :37:30.10 try to delay or block the publication. Any truth in that? I
:37:31. > :37:37.don't think so. Politics is politics. Over the summer, fairly
:37:38. > :37:40.rapid amount of change has happened in terms of political advisers and
:37:41. > :37:45.all of that, and basically I think they needed a few weeks to get their
:37:46. > :37:49.heads around a series of big issues, including the European referendum,
:37:50. > :37:53.amongst many other things. My report, I gave it to her the week
:37:54. > :37:58.before last and we are today, so in the scheme of things that is fine.
:37:59. > :38:03.And no, I haven't doctored it or watered it down. The report today, I
:38:04. > :38:07.am happy with it. It is my report, they are my words, I thought about
:38:08. > :38:10.what I wanted to put in and what I didn't want to put in and that is
:38:11. > :38:14.the report I have published this morning. For you have said the
:38:15. > :38:20.unsayable, being pretty direct in your observations and judgments, and
:38:21. > :38:24.observations from politicians across the political spectrum. Are you
:38:25. > :38:28.surprised by the reaction? No. I think when you say things that are
:38:29. > :38:32.difficult people find it difficult. I find them difficult to say, if
:38:33. > :38:36.truth be told. You don't always want to find problems and when you find
:38:37. > :38:42.problems and talk about them, they can be incredibly awkward. I think
:38:43. > :38:46.the report is very complicated. There are lots of things in it. If
:38:47. > :38:51.you just pick out a couple of things, you can make hay with them.
:38:52. > :38:56.It presents a picture that basically says the pace of immigration is too
:38:57. > :39:01.much in certain communities. It has been too quick, too difficult, too
:39:02. > :39:04.much change. Over the last ten years or so we haven't really been as an
:39:05. > :39:09.integration as I think we should be. I think that is a perfectly
:39:10. > :39:14.reasonable position for the British public to take. Do you accept that
:39:15. > :39:18.position? I think it is a courageous report. But do you accept that
:39:19. > :39:22.immigration has been too fast and furious for integration and there
:39:23. > :39:27.are problems to date as a result of immigration that perhaps started in
:39:28. > :39:31.Tony Blair. Louise said that in a particular way. She said in certain
:39:32. > :39:38.communities and I am glad you are nodding. That is really important.
:39:39. > :39:41.It is the impact it has made an certain communities that has just
:39:42. > :39:46.lacked any real thought on any real understanding both about the needs
:39:47. > :39:51.of the incoming community but also the community that was pre-existing.
:39:52. > :39:55.In my own area in North West London, in Wembley, in Brent, I am the first
:39:56. > :40:00.constituency with more people voting in a general election who were born
:40:01. > :40:03.outside the UK than born in it. Right, but some of the communities
:40:04. > :40:06.that Louise was talking about were not necessarily like Brent but I
:40:07. > :40:10.accept your point that it is a very diverse community. Reaction from
:40:11. > :40:17.Sayeeda Warsi, the former Tory Cabinet minister, saying it has
:40:18. > :40:21.focused too much on the Muslim community and the Muslim community
:40:22. > :40:22.in terms of women. You could talk about white working class
:40:23. > :40:28.communities as being marginalised and held back is yellow do you
:40:29. > :40:34.accept that? The shame is that she started tweeting before the report
:40:35. > :40:37.was published. Technically that is not the way I would have wanted the
:40:38. > :40:42.debate to start. If you read the whole report, let's be honest. I
:40:43. > :40:46.don't let anybody off the hook when it comes to qualities in that
:40:47. > :40:50.chapter. If one looks around the BBC, that is the starting point, and
:40:51. > :40:54.the civil service and other institutions, equality leaves a
:40:55. > :40:57.little to be desired. I don't suggest for a moment that we have
:40:58. > :41:03.left behind poor kids on white working class estates in this
:41:04. > :41:07.country. The fact that kids on free school meals are still doing badly
:41:08. > :41:12.in terms of attainment. And if you are young and black and between the
:41:13. > :41:15.ages of 18 and 25, you are 35% likely to be unemployed. All of
:41:16. > :41:19.those things are appalling. However, I don't want to write another report
:41:20. > :41:25.that says they are appalling and I will duck another issue that is
:41:26. > :41:29.called, as the country has become more diverse and London is a
:41:30. > :41:33.fantastic example of that, we do however have pockets of this country
:41:34. > :41:37.that without a doubt much more concentrated in terms of Pakistani
:41:38. > :41:42.heritage, Bangladeshi heritage and Muslim communities, which are from
:41:43. > :41:45.lots of different areas of the world but they define themselves as
:41:46. > :41:49.Muslim. I will put my cards on the table and my hands up. I am not
:41:50. > :41:52.going to duck and issue on your programme that says that within some
:41:53. > :41:58.of those communities I have seen male misogyny and patriarchy in ways
:41:59. > :42:04.that I just do not feel we should accept in this country. How can you
:42:05. > :42:07.change that within a community? The starting point is to talk about it
:42:08. > :42:12.and call it for what it is. Don't dance around it and say it is a
:42:13. > :42:16.because it is religion. It is not locate to say that if you are gay
:42:17. > :42:20.you should be beheaded or if you are woman you should walk 50 steps
:42:21. > :42:30.behind somebody else. -- it is not locate. OK. For one person it is
:42:31. > :42:37.arranged marriage and for another it is forced marriage. I hope you find
:42:38. > :42:41.me a husband or a wife turns into your community forcing you down a
:42:42. > :42:44.route. We have got to have those discussions. You cannot tell people
:42:45. > :42:49.where to live and who to be friends with. You cannot tell them which
:42:50. > :42:54.school to go to, so how do you break up communities which want to live
:42:55. > :42:58.together and be segregated? Nobody wants to break up communities. How
:42:59. > :43:02.do you stop segregation happening? The fundamental problem here is that
:43:03. > :43:07.some of these community is began to establish a long time ago, in the
:43:08. > :43:12.late 1950s. And they have increased since. But as a society we have
:43:13. > :43:15.changed and we are much more liberal. We are in a society where
:43:16. > :43:21.gay marriage is enshrined in law. And we have progressed quite a lot
:43:22. > :43:26.over the last 50 or 60 years. And left behind large swathes of people?
:43:27. > :43:32.We have not just left them behind. We have diverged. It is enshrined in
:43:33. > :43:35.their religion and culture. Many of those communities, we can talk about
:43:36. > :43:38.it and try and educate and particularly educate women, I think,
:43:39. > :43:43.but many other people within those communities would find it offensive
:43:44. > :43:47.and fundamentally against everything they believe in in terms of the
:43:48. > :43:55.patriarch and the misogyny, because it is part of who they are. Let
:43:56. > :44:05.Louise come in. I am not saying that is how it should be. Is Lembit Opik
:44:06. > :44:12.is full religion. Islam is a religion that can be interpreted in
:44:13. > :44:16.a myriad of different ways. -- Islam is a peaceful religion. There are
:44:17. > :44:20.plenty of Muslims living the life that I live, still practising their
:44:21. > :44:24.religion in their own way. I have no problem with that and nobody should
:44:25. > :44:29.have a problem with that. My problem isn't educating women. It is
:44:30. > :44:33.educating men. It is actually speaking to the Imams, the so-called
:44:34. > :44:37.community leaders, standing beside teachers in schools who are day in
:44:38. > :44:42.and day out in some of these high concentration areas having to walk
:44:43. > :44:47.the tightrope between can somebody go on a theatre trip? Can somebody
:44:48. > :44:51.play music? All of those things. We are not standing behind them are
:44:52. > :44:57.saying, yes, of course you can, and we are not getting that message out
:44:58. > :45:00.to so many people in the Muslim community who are on the other hand
:45:01. > :45:03.pulling in the opposite direction. The sense of it being a leftover of
:45:04. > :45:08.the last 50 years and eventually they will integrate is not what I
:45:09. > :45:11.have seen. My problem is that there are some people who are friendly
:45:12. > :45:18.more British than I am, their heritage is longer living in this
:45:19. > :45:21.country than my own family, yet frankly in some circumstances they
:45:22. > :45:32.have more regressive views towards women and other people than perhaps
:45:33. > :45:35.those that came from Pakistan for 40 years ago with that type of
:45:36. > :45:41.attitude. Do you think little greatness has been a barrier in
:45:42. > :45:45.terms of talking about these issues? -- political correctness. I am
:45:46. > :45:49.talking about the rather issue. Many of the perpetrators grooming young
:45:50. > :45:54.girls were men of Pakistani origin. It was accused of political
:45:55. > :46:00.correctness at the time. Without a doubt, sometimes it is incredibly
:46:01. > :46:05.well-intentioned people, they think they can't speak out loud about this
:46:06. > :46:08.and it will be terribly awkward. We want to embrace differences in terms
:46:09. > :46:12.of culture, religions and behaviours. My problem is that
:46:13. > :46:16.sometimes we have gone too far. The worst aspect of that is when you
:46:17. > :46:20.wake up one day and you realise that the social work or police officer is
:46:21. > :46:27.ignoring something deliberately, to texting out the word Pakistani from
:46:28. > :46:30.a children's care file. You realise that the care has gone so far on the
:46:31. > :46:41.other direction that actually they are doing wrong. It is all sorts of
:46:42. > :46:44.smaller examples. My most important cry is that this should be talked
:46:45. > :46:48.about and debated fairly and properly and that every local
:46:49. > :46:52.authority in a country can start the bracing the issues. Do you think the
:46:53. > :46:56.government will take action on this? Yes, they will have to.
:46:57. > :46:59.Now, last week gave us plenty of disagreement over Brexit,
:47:00. > :47:01.another new leader for Ukip and a surprise by-election
:47:02. > :47:08.On Monday, the Liberal Democrat Sarah Olney,
:47:09. > :47:10.fresh from overturning Zac Goldsmith's 23,000
:47:11. > :47:12.majority in last week's Richmond Park by-election,
:47:13. > :47:15.takes her place in the House of Commons.
:47:16. > :47:17.On Tuesday, the main debate in the Commons is the Health Service
:47:18. > :47:22.Medical Supplies Bill, where Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt
:47:23. > :47:25.aims to reduce the ?15.2 billion the NHS in England
:47:26. > :47:30.On Wednesday, the leader of the Commons David Lidington
:47:31. > :47:32.stands in for Theresa May at Prime Minister's Questions
:47:33. > :47:37.The PM herself is away on a foreign trip.
:47:38. > :47:40.We don't yet know who will be speaking for Labour.
:47:41. > :47:43.If you're a fan of by-elections, your luck's in.
:47:44. > :47:45.There's another this Thursday, when voters in Sleaford
:47:46. > :47:49.and North Hykeham choose a new MP after Conservative Stephen Phillips
:47:50. > :47:56.And on Friday, we'll get the political result
:47:57. > :48:01.Yes, can Jeremy Corbyn win Parliamentary Beard of the Year
:48:02. > :48:09.Now, to discuss all of that, although not the bit
:48:10. > :48:11.about the beards, we're joined by Stephen Bush
:48:12. > :48:14.from the New Statesman and Alison Little from The Express.
:48:15. > :48:26.Wrapped up warm, I see. Allison, different types of Brexit. Are
:48:27. > :48:35.beginning to emerge? Are the Cabinet split is very reel over where to go
:48:36. > :48:39.with Brexit? I think they are very real, how much they matter at the
:48:40. > :48:45.moment is a moot point. Theresa may says we are not going to give a
:48:46. > :48:48.running commentary. Ministers are not going to be able to roll things
:48:49. > :48:55.out, that is why David Davis got into a situation last week. --
:48:56. > :49:00.ruling label things out. Paying for access to a single market, he said,
:49:01. > :49:06.well, there is a possibility. Boris Johnson insisted yesterday that it
:49:07. > :49:10.is a clear picture of what we want for Brexit. I don't know if it is,
:49:11. > :49:16.but it gives us something to write about. That is always important.
:49:17. > :49:20.Some of the papers were writing at the weekend that David Davis is
:49:21. > :49:24.being allowed to state an opinion, particularly when he didn't rule out
:49:25. > :49:28.contributions to the EU for preferential access to the single
:49:29. > :49:33.market. Others, like Liam Fox and Boris, are not being given the same
:49:34. > :49:38.sort of freedom to speak their mind. There is definitely a scepticism
:49:39. > :49:44.about Liam Fox among senior people. Clearly a concerted effort from some
:49:45. > :49:47.quarters to get Boris, as it were. Whether that is anything more than
:49:48. > :49:52.jockeying for power within the Conservative Party is a more open
:49:53. > :49:58.question. Alison, do you think the Government is heading for a harder
:49:59. > :50:03.or softer Brexit? A grey Brexit, whatever we are talking about now. I
:50:04. > :50:07.don't know. I really don't. The signals from Boris Johnson is that
:50:08. > :50:11.we are going to be out of the single market and the customs union, but it
:50:12. > :50:15.is a one-time thing, nobody has done it before, so we will have our own
:50:16. > :50:20.deal. The David Davis point is interesting. I spoke to an MP who
:50:21. > :50:24.thought he should have been better prepared for the question, it was a
:50:25. > :50:29.convoluted answer. He hasn't been on the front bench for a very long
:50:30. > :50:32.time. For him and Boris and Liam Fox, partly it is that they are not
:50:33. > :50:37.used to the day-to-day demands of the House of Commons any more. That
:50:38. > :50:43.is sometimes an issue, so they can set hares running when perhaps they
:50:44. > :50:46.don't mean to. On immigration, there seems to be some disagreement on
:50:47. > :50:49.whether the numbers should come down, or whether it should be a
:50:50. > :50:57.reasonable and managed immigration or not. Which is it, Labour Party
:50:58. > :51:00.policy? To be honest, if you ask three different members of the
:51:01. > :51:04.Labour front bench, you would get six different answers. If you ask a
:51:05. > :51:09.backbencher, you would get another four. They are badly split on the
:51:10. > :51:14.issue. Half of their seats have people who don't like the EU and
:51:15. > :51:19.immigration, the other half like the EU and immigration. It's not clear
:51:20. > :51:22.who will win the tussle. Diane Abbott is hugely influential on
:51:23. > :51:27.Jeremy Corbyn's thinking, she thinks you have to stay in the civil market
:51:28. > :51:30.and accept free movement. Keir Starmer is not in a seat but is
:51:31. > :51:36.under threat from the potential surge from Ukip. He is trying to
:51:37. > :51:41.speak to those concerns, a middle path. And people like Clive Lewis
:51:42. > :51:46.suggesting that maybe only members of the trade union... It is a bit of
:51:47. > :51:49.a mess, in truth. I will leave you two to pursue the varying shades of
:51:50. > :51:52.Brexit and immigration. Thank you. Has this been an unusually rude year
:51:53. > :51:55.in politics both here and abroad? Well, not on the Daily Politics,
:51:56. > :51:58.where we're just as rude But that's the view of the columnist
:51:59. > :52:02.and former MP Matthew Parris, who may just occasionally have been
:52:03. > :52:04.guilty of the odd In his very own tribute
:52:05. > :52:13.to Top of the Pops, here's Matthew with the worst -
:52:14. > :52:16.or should that be best? - Hello there, rude boys.
:52:17. > :52:21.I'm Matthew Parris. And what a year it's been
:52:22. > :52:24.for political upsets, And because it's been an annus
:52:25. > :52:30.in which politicians have been especially horribili to each other,
:52:31. > :52:34.here's my Daily Politics top five The EU referendum dominated
:52:35. > :52:44.the first half of the year, and tempers were fraying,
:52:45. > :52:47.not least in the debates Who could forget Amber Rudd's
:52:48. > :52:52.take-down of Boris Johnson? He's the life and soul of the party,
:52:53. > :52:56.but he's not the man you want driving you home
:52:57. > :53:01.at the end of the evening. For some reason, Michael Gove stung
:53:02. > :53:04.people into some rather graphic language among users
:53:05. > :53:06.of that bastion of common sense and moderation,
:53:07. > :53:11.Twitter. @pulpketchup described the former
:53:12. > :53:15.Chief Whip and Education Secretary While @invaderXan was even crueller,
:53:16. > :53:21.describing him as a reprehensible Then, for a short while,
:53:22. > :53:29.all Conservatives seemed One Tory MP was quoted
:53:30. > :53:40.anonymously saying... Although that was all rather vanilla
:53:41. > :53:46.compared with what was happening Her obituary in the Richmond
:53:47. > :54:06.Times dispatch said... One man who saw Donald Trump with
:54:07. > :54:12.more enthusiasm was Nigel Farage, who's finally bowed out of the UK
:54:13. > :54:15.leadership with this endorsement from journalist Camilla Long
:54:16. > :54:26.ringing in his ears... So, 2016 has been catty, sometimes
:54:27. > :54:32.witty, but often downright brutal. Next year, if I promise to be a bit
:54:33. > :54:43.nicer, can't we all? And Matthew Parris, who's just
:54:44. > :54:46.published his book called Scorn, about history's worst insults,
:54:47. > :54:48.just in time for Christmas, has left the Top of the Pops
:54:49. > :54:58.studio and joins us now. I don't know if they were your
:54:59. > :55:01.personal dancers. We couldn't think of a rude enough introduction that
:55:02. > :55:08.would be acceptable on daytime telly. Plenty, but none of them are
:55:09. > :55:13.repeatable. Has it been a vintage year for political scorn? I'm not
:55:14. > :55:18.sure of the word vintage in terms of quality. In terms of quantity, a
:55:19. > :55:24.huge amount. A lot of it pretty brutal. More the sledgehammer than
:55:25. > :55:31.the stiletto, and I regret that. Oh, you do? I like the stiletto! The top
:55:32. > :55:36.five were pretty scathing, particularly for poor old Michael
:55:37. > :55:41.Gove. What brought out such vitriol? He said something mild, like I want
:55:42. > :55:45.to stay friends with the EU, I think people were just cross with him. His
:55:46. > :55:54.erstwhile friend Boris Johnson has not fared so well. I don't think
:55:55. > :55:57.they are friends! I did say erstwhile! The journalist Marina
:55:58. > :56:02.Hyde described Michael Gove as having faced a tragic conflict of
:56:03. > :56:06.disloyalty. Everybody had their own version of that. What do you think
:56:07. > :56:10.relations are like around the Cabinet table, when you think of
:56:11. > :56:15.Amber Rudd, Boris Johnson that collision during one of the debates?
:56:16. > :56:20.How does that work out? I think it works out as it would in our own
:56:21. > :56:23.lives. When people have had a huge row and really insulted each other
:56:24. > :56:27.in the most personal terms, it is hard to imagine they are never
:56:28. > :56:32.completely friends again. But of course they have to have ways of
:56:33. > :56:35.working. You yourself were not exactly flattering about Boris
:56:36. > :56:42.Johnson. Lacklustre, cynical, vacuous? Yes, I had a bit of a go at
:56:43. > :56:48.Boris Johnson some time ago. You did. And what triggered that? I was
:56:49. > :56:52.invited to the Foreign Office Christmas party, but I am terrified
:56:53. > :56:56.of bumping into him on a social occasion, because he has never been
:56:57. > :56:59.anything but pleasant to me. There you go! You are not exactly shy in
:57:00. > :57:11.coming forward with political insults? No. You are in the book!
:57:12. > :57:17.The Sox! Remind us. It was Tim Montgomery. He told me very quickly
:57:18. > :57:23.what it meant, so I deleted the tweet very quickly. I am pretty
:57:24. > :57:31.naive, to be honest. She says! I'm afraid I don't believe a word. I
:57:32. > :57:34.have been accused of starting this posh boy 's comment about David
:57:35. > :57:39.Cameron and George Osborne. It was on this programme, I think. You
:57:40. > :57:44.first aired the comment. It went viral. Since then, people have been
:57:45. > :57:48.not quite as afraid to say what they really wanted. Matthew knows as well
:57:49. > :57:53.as I do that there is no such thing as a friend in politics. If you want
:57:54. > :57:58.a friend, get a dog! You said you are not rude to people, but are you,
:57:59. > :58:05.Barry? Would you like to be rude to Nadine? He has been today already! I
:58:06. > :58:09.think the worst thing I have ever said about anyone was the last
:58:10. > :58:19.Chancellor. I used the phrase that he showed all the economic foresight
:58:20. > :58:23.of a myopic fruit bat. That is very mild! Tony Banks described Mrs
:58:24. > :58:26.Thatcher as Baha'i thing like a six starved boa constrictor! -- behaving
:58:27. > :58:28.like. There's just time before we go
:58:29. > :58:31.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was: According
:58:32. > :58:33.to reports in the press, what name is the Government
:58:34. > :58:44.trying to stop ministers It was Boris. He should be called
:58:45. > :58:48.Foreign Secretary, because everyone always is and always has him, so he
:58:49. > :58:52.deserves the respect of the position. -- has been.
:58:53. > :58:57.That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.