:00:37. > :00:44.The Commons gives its clear backing for the Government's timetable
:00:45. > :00:51.MPs voted overwhelmingly in favour of the plan to trigger Article 50
:00:52. > :00:54.by the end of March next year and so begin the formal negotiation
:00:55. > :00:58.In return, MPs say they want more detail on the plans.
:00:59. > :01:03.Once we've left the EU what should our immigration system look like?
:01:04. > :01:06.The Home Affairs Select Committee is launching a nationwide inquiry
:01:07. > :01:13.Its chair, Yvette Cooper, joins us live.
:01:14. > :01:16.Is Momentum, the campaign group set up to support
:01:17. > :01:21.Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, facing an existential crisis?
:01:22. > :01:25.We report on the divisions and infighting afflicting
:01:26. > :01:32.I'm welcoming the next Prime Minister of Britain Jeremy Corbyn.
:01:33. > :01:34.He thinks it's possible, despite what the polls say.
:01:35. > :01:37.But 2016 wasn't exactly a great year for pollsters, so could the idea
:01:38. > :01:48.of a Prime Minister Corbyn become a reality?
:01:49. > :01:51.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:52. > :01:55.of the programme today is the writer and broadcaster Paul Mason.
:01:56. > :01:57.Paul used to be a journalist for Channel 4 News and,
:01:58. > :02:04.He reported regularly from Athens. Newsnight before and then you went
:02:05. > :02:10.to Channel 4. He's now free of the strictures
:02:11. > :02:12.of broadcast news and able to offer his opinion on all manner
:02:13. > :02:16.of things, I dare say we may tease out a few of those
:02:17. > :02:21.opinions in the next hour. Unlike you. I'm envious of your
:02:22. > :02:24.position. Welcome back. Thank you. One day you might get an
:02:25. > :02:30.opportunity. I doubt it.
:02:31. > :02:32.First today, the Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has
:02:33. > :02:35.accused Britain's ally, Saudi Arabia, of engaging in "proxy
:02:36. > :02:39.The Guardian newspaper has published footage in which Mr Johnson says
:02:40. > :02:41.Saudi Arabai and Iran are "puppeteering" in various
:02:42. > :02:44.He was speaking at a conference in Rome last week.
:02:45. > :02:48.There are politicians who are twisting and abusing
:02:49. > :02:51.religion and different strains of the same religion in order
:02:52. > :02:58.to further their own political objectives and that's one
:02:59. > :03:02.of the biggest political problems in the whole region.
:03:03. > :03:07.The tragedy for me - and that's why you have these proxy
:03:08. > :03:09.wars being fought the whole time in that area -
:03:10. > :03:12.is that there is not strong enough leadership in the
:03:13. > :03:18.You've got the Saudis, the Irans, everybody moving in and puppeteering
:03:19. > :03:32.We need to have some way of encouraging visionary leadership.
:03:33. > :03:37.Boris Johnson there. Paul Mason you must be delighted that the Foreign
:03:38. > :03:43.Secretary agrees with you? Substantially, I think he is right.
:03:44. > :03:49.But, of course, if you listen to the whole clip. There are two huge
:03:50. > :03:53.bloopers in T one is to diss the UK's strategic ally in the region.
:03:54. > :03:58.Remember, we are building a Royal Navy base in the Gulf, in Bahrain to
:03:59. > :04:08.support Saudi Arabia in its proxy war in Yemen and the rest. The other
:04:09. > :04:10.thing, if this weird notion that the Sunni and Shia conflict is the
:04:11. > :04:14.result of politicians that don't display leader sh. It is a
:04:15. > :04:17.fundamental fault line. Does he not have officials over there in the
:04:18. > :04:21.Foreign Office? Was there nobody there saying to him - Boris, you are
:04:22. > :04:24.going to speak about the Middle East, we have one ally, what is
:04:25. > :04:29.going on in the Foreign Office? Well, you are not the only one
:04:30. > :04:32.putting that question. The Prime Minister's spokesperson has in the
:04:33. > :04:36.last half an hour or so, responding to the commented from the Foreign
:04:37. > :04:42.Secretary, said that Theresa May wants to strengthen the relationship
:04:43. > :04:46.with Saudi Arabia. She said "We are supporting the Saudi-led coalition
:04:47. > :04:50.in support of the legitimate Government in Yemen against huety
:04:51. > :04:53.rebels." She said, "Those are the Prime Minister's views, the Foreign
:04:54. > :04:56.Secretary's views are knotted the Government's position on, for
:04:57. > :04:59.example -- are not the Government's position on, for example, Saudi
:05:00. > :05:04.Arabia and the region. If that's not a slapdown, I don't know what is
:05:05. > :05:09.Everybody who speaks in public has an off day but the clip there seemed
:05:10. > :05:16.to - Boris Johnson seemed to be pulling these ideas almost out of a
:05:17. > :05:21.spontaneous well-spring of ideas. A stream of consciousness. I think
:05:22. > :05:26.that's the word. The substantive problem is the May administration
:05:27. > :05:29.has inherited what I think is a very bad, combined foreign and defence
:05:30. > :05:34.strategy, in the Middle East. That is, it has this thing about global
:05:35. > :05:39.reach. To have global reach you need a base in Bahrain, the Saudis buying
:05:40. > :05:43.your fighters. After Trump, and falling apart of the globalisation,
:05:44. > :05:46.what does this mean? I would have liked to hear Boris Johnson talk
:05:47. > :05:52.about that. I think he probably does want to talk about that. I'm sure he
:05:53. > :05:55.does but at the moment there is now, there are two different positions.
:05:56. > :05:59.There is Theresa May and the Government's position and there is
:06:00. > :06:03.the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson's position As we will find
:06:04. > :06:06.out this, pervies the Government. It has divided positions on many thing,
:06:07. > :06:11.including Brexit which we are about to talk B but Britain, as an
:06:12. > :06:15.all-imperial power w responsibilities around the world,
:06:16. > :06:17.needs, with responsibilities around the world, needs its diplomatic
:06:18. > :06:21.service to feed into the Foreign Office, what is going on. If you
:06:22. > :06:26.have a policy you either stick to it or change it and you need
:06:27. > :06:30.competence. And I, not for the first time one finds oneself saying about
:06:31. > :06:35.Boris Johnson, the man is not competent to do this job. In terms
:06:36. > :06:38.of you either change the policy or stick to t the spokespersoned for
:06:39. > :06:42.the Prime Minister said "The Foreign Secretary will be in the region this
:06:43. > :06:45.weekend and that will be an opportunity for him to set the
:06:46. > :06:48.Government's position on relations with Saudi Arabia and others in the
:06:49. > :06:53.region" rather than his own. And asked if the Prime Minister had full
:06:54. > :07:00.confidence in Mr Johnson, the spokeswoman said "yes." It has come
:07:01. > :07:03.to something fairly early on whether you are questioning whether the
:07:04. > :07:08.Prime Minister still has confidence in her Home Secretary? There is no
:07:09. > :07:12.need for Mr Johnson to be picking this fight or inadvertent stumble
:07:13. > :07:16.over Saudy. It is not a substantive issue the Government is trying to
:07:17. > :07:19.deal with. The Iran deal will be blown up, when Trump becomes
:07:20. > :07:23.President. We need our diplomatic service on the case and our Foreign
:07:24. > :07:27.Secretary on the case in the Middle East to work out how we can save,
:07:28. > :07:30.because we are still part of the European European, which has signed
:07:31. > :07:35.a deal with Iran, this peace-making deal in the Gulf because nobody
:07:36. > :07:39.wants a nuclear armed war between these two powers. I wonder how
:07:40. > :07:42.emotions are running in the Foreign Office at the moment?
:07:43. > :07:47.The problem is, he speaks as a pundit. As a journalist? I could ask
:07:48. > :07:52.a question in the Gulf where I go regular lane I could have said that.
:07:53. > :07:56.He is not a -- regularly and I could have said that. But he is not a
:07:57. > :07:59.pundit, he is the Foreign Secretary And we had the position where the
:08:00. > :08:03.opposition try to defeat them on arming the Saudis. What does this
:08:04. > :08:05.sound like? The Saudis say - the British political establishment is
:08:06. > :08:07.not keen on us at the moment. They might have taken that away from the
:08:08. > :08:13.comments. Theresa May has given an interview
:08:14. > :08:17.in which she's criticised civil servants for using a certain word
:08:18. > :08:19.or phrase that's popular So our question today
:08:20. > :08:23.is, what's the word? A) Corbynism, b) Populism,
:08:24. > :08:25.c) The squeezed middle or d) Jams At the end of the show Paul will
:08:26. > :08:33.give us the correct answer. So last night MPs overwhelmingly
:08:34. > :08:35.passed a Government amendment calling on ministers to trigger
:08:36. > :08:37.Article 50 by the end They also approved a Labour motion
:08:38. > :08:43.calling on Ministers to publish a "plan for leaving the EU" before
:08:44. > :08:46.the exit negotiations begin. But what do we already
:08:47. > :08:48.know about what this MPs are asking Theresa May
:08:49. > :08:58.about her vision for Brexit but there were some clues
:08:59. > :09:00.in her speech to the Conservative The Prime Minister said leaving
:09:01. > :09:06.the European Union meant Britain would now be able to have
:09:07. > :09:10."control of immigration". She also said the UK laws should
:09:11. > :09:13.no longer be subject Both of those statements were taken
:09:14. > :09:21.by some as a signal that the UK would not remain a member
:09:22. > :09:24.of the single market. Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson,
:09:25. > :09:26.also outlined a four-point Brexit plan on the Andrew Marr Show last
:09:27. > :09:30.weekend. He said Brexit gave Britain
:09:31. > :09:33.the opportunity to take back control of our borders,
:09:34. > :09:36.our money, our laws, and to be able That fourth point on free trade
:09:37. > :09:43.could mean the UK will have Britain could still pay
:09:44. > :09:46.to get the best access to the single market -
:09:47. > :09:49.Brexit Secretary, David Davis, told MPs last week that the Government
:09:50. > :09:55.was considering it. The final exit deal is also
:09:56. > :09:57.expected to be voted upon by the House of Commons,
:09:58. > :10:00.after Mr Davis said it would be "inconceivable"
:10:01. > :10:04.for MPs not to have a vote. But will that be
:10:05. > :10:07.enough to satisfy MPs? And could the Supreme Court ask
:10:08. > :10:12.Ministers to go further in how they spell out the specifics
:10:13. > :10:15.of their exit plan? Well, there were many MPs calling
:10:16. > :10:18.for the Government to provide more detail during the debate
:10:19. > :10:20.in Parliament yesterday. I put the Government on notice,
:10:21. > :10:33.that if it fails to produce a plan by the time we are debating Article
:10:34. > :10:37.50 legislation, if we are - assuming the Government doesn't win
:10:38. > :10:40.- amendments from this side and possibly from the other side
:10:41. > :10:43.of the House, will be put forward, setting out the minimum requirements
:10:44. > :10:51.of a plan. In other words, we're not
:10:52. > :10:56.going to have a situation where the Government seeks a vote
:10:57. > :10:59.in a vacuum, or produces This is a negotiation,
:11:00. > :11:17.it is not a policy statement, and, therefore, where we are aiming for -
:11:18. > :11:20.and we may be on the same page on this - where we are aiming for,
:11:21. > :11:24.may not be the exact place of hints, I would merely remind
:11:25. > :11:31.the House that when Moses came down from the mountain bearing
:11:32. > :11:32.the tablet, He was pretty clear about what he
:11:33. > :11:38.was telling people what to do. Once again, the Labour
:11:39. > :11:40.front bench sides with They are out to try to frustrate
:11:41. > :11:44.and overturn the way Parliamentary sovereignty,
:11:45. > :11:46.Mr Speaker, is short hand The verdict of the people on June
:11:47. > :11:53.23rd was absolutely clear. It would be perverse to invoke
:11:54. > :11:57.parliamentary oversight and sovereignty as a pretext
:11:58. > :12:00.for dither and delay. Now they promised to publish a plan,
:12:01. > :12:03.but it's been quite clear to me from the Government's statement,
:12:04. > :12:07.from the statements of Conservative MPs outside this
:12:08. > :12:11.chamber in the last 24 hours that that plan will not be the white
:12:12. > :12:14.paper that the Brexit Secretary once promised, it will not answer the big
:12:15. > :12:17.questions about our vital access to the single market,
:12:18. > :12:20.the rights of UK citizens abroad and EU citizens here
:12:21. > :12:26.or issues such as tariffs. Now, to me, nothing could be
:12:27. > :12:28.clearer than what the I'm glad to see they
:12:29. > :12:40.find clarity amusing. I think they would benefit from some
:12:41. > :12:43.clarity but our position on the Government's side
:12:44. > :12:47.is very simple. We want to have some restriction
:12:48. > :12:50.on freedom of movement. We what a change in those
:12:51. > :12:53.arrangements, while having the widest possible access
:12:54. > :12:57.to the single market. Those are two very
:12:58. > :12:59.simple principles. I see various members of the front
:13:00. > :13:02.bench chuntering in their positions but even they should be able
:13:03. > :13:12.to understand this basic position. Joining me now is the Conservative
:13:13. > :13:23.MP, Bernard Jenkin, and the Labour Whack to you both. Bernard Jenkin,
:13:24. > :13:28.Iain Duncan Smith, your colleague fellow Brexiteer said last night's
:13:29. > :13:36.vote was "historic." Why? Well it was a bit of a watershed wasn't it?
:13:37. > :13:42.By a majority of hundreds, the House of Commons voted to invoke Article
:13:43. > :13:45.50 by 31st March. A non-binding op Opposition Day motion which doesn't
:13:46. > :13:49.technically force the Government to do anything. Correct but historic.
:13:50. > :13:52.Correct but it was an expression of the opinion of the House of Commons,
:13:53. > :13:56.that would have been unthinkable before the referendum. There you
:13:57. > :13:58.have it. It was the House of Commons accepting the referendum result.
:13:59. > :14:03.What did Labour achieve yesterday? I think we finally got the Government
:14:04. > :14:08.to confirm that it will produce and publish a plan. That will give us
:14:09. > :14:11.something to scrutinise. Do you have anything idea what the plan will
:14:12. > :14:17.look like? It sounds to me like they want a hard Brexit. What I meant
:14:18. > :14:22.was, the nature of the plan? Will it be a white paper, a green paper?
:14:23. > :14:30.Back of a fag packet sent over to you. . Back of an envelope. You gave
:14:31. > :14:35.in, if I can put it that way, without details of what the plan
:14:36. > :14:40.will be. I think it should be a white paper. We should push hard for
:14:41. > :14:45.that. Let's not have a childish reaction from the Government where
:14:46. > :14:51.they bring forward a two-line bill on 30th March. Let's have respect.
:14:52. > :14:55.And am tour debate based on a detailed plan. What do you think the
:14:56. > :15:00.Government will do? I think the Government is likely to produce a
:15:01. > :15:02.white paper. It is likely to be the Government's opening offer, the
:15:03. > :15:06.shape or opening of the Government's opening offer. For the negotiations?
:15:07. > :15:11.For the negotiations. What that white paper then be translated into
:15:12. > :15:15.legislation? No, that white paper would be the opening position for
:15:16. > :15:19.the negotiation of the withdrawal agreement.
:15:20. > :15:27.And the Commons would vote on the White Paper? If it wanted to, it
:15:28. > :15:30.could. Would that be enough? Yes, if the plan isn't good enough they
:15:31. > :15:34.would have to come back with a better one. It could be that the
:15:35. > :15:40.Supreme Court may rule that actually you need legislation to do this, a
:15:41. > :15:43.motion in parliament, even for a white Paper, doesn't change the law.
:15:44. > :15:47.I don't know if that is how they will rule but that is a strong
:15:48. > :15:51.argument that has been put by Lord Pannick on the side of the
:15:52. > :15:57.plaintiffs. If they do that, they motion would not be enough. We would
:15:58. > :16:02.then need a bill as well. While this is going on, anybody studying
:16:03. > :16:05.A-level politics should be watching the Supreme Court hearing because
:16:06. > :16:14.you are getting an almost English Civil War enunciation of the English
:16:15. > :16:23.Cottage Ouschan for first time by people who know about it -- English
:16:24. > :16:27.Constitution. The critical problem for the soft Brexiteers like me, I
:16:28. > :16:31.want the softest possible Brexit, we must do it, but I want to stay in
:16:32. > :16:36.the Single Market, I want minimal changes to the freedom of movement.
:16:37. > :16:41.If it isn't that and the Europeans at the end of the two years give us
:16:42. > :16:46.a very tough deal, what do you do? The people on the Labour benches and
:16:47. > :16:51.the Conservative rebels need to be prepared to say that they would vote
:16:52. > :16:54.it down. Let's go to the White Paper first. Do you think they would have
:16:55. > :17:00.to be legislation to enact the White Paper? No, the White Paper, we are
:17:01. > :17:07.muddling up two things, we may or may not need legislation to enact
:17:08. > :17:12.Article 50. The negotiation will result in an agreement and the
:17:13. > :17:17.agreement may or may not need legislation but the negotiating
:17:18. > :17:20.position could not be... Unless there is a mad amendment put in the
:17:21. > :17:24.Article 50 bill saying that the government must achieve this and
:17:25. > :17:30.this, that would be crazy. I assume that is what Labour would like to
:17:31. > :17:35.do, if the government laid out a negotiating position, its broad
:17:36. > :17:41.position in an act of Parliament... That would be crazy. You would want
:17:42. > :17:45.to amend it? We can't do the crystal ball gazing, if they come forward
:17:46. > :17:49.with a plan, a piece of legislation that isn't in the national interest
:17:50. > :17:53.and we have to go to them and say that you have to come back with a
:17:54. > :17:57.better one. The clear thing is not connecting it to not triggering
:17:58. > :18:01.Article 50. We need to hold the government to account, not the
:18:02. > :18:06.ransom. I'm trying to get clarity here -- not to ransom. He White
:18:07. > :18:12.Paper wouldn't be that long but it would outline the strategic aims of
:18:13. > :18:18.the government, and then almost a short, almost a three line act of
:18:19. > :18:23.Parliament simply saying, we now vote to trigger Article 50 and begin
:18:24. > :18:26.negotiations as laid out in the government White Paper. What the
:18:27. > :18:31.government has promised is a vote at the end of the Article 50 process. I
:18:32. > :18:38.think that's the key. This is so dynamic. On the deal? Yes. David
:18:39. > :18:41.Davies said yesterday that he thinks it is inconceivable that there
:18:42. > :18:46.wouldn't be a vote at the end of the two-year period. He probably said it
:18:47. > :18:53.was inconceivable that Donald Trump would win! I'm not a betting man.
:18:54. > :18:57.The bill won't mention the White Paper, the negotiation will not be
:18:58. > :19:03.made just as a bull in law. Our system works. The government
:19:04. > :19:09.proposes and Parliament disposes. If Parliament does not like the
:19:10. > :19:11.government's negotiating in the European Union, ultimately
:19:12. > :19:15.Parliament can sack the government and it would become an issue of
:19:16. > :19:19.confidence and I'm certain we would win on the issue. At the end of the
:19:20. > :19:24.process, what would happen if we have a vote, two years have gone and
:19:25. > :19:30.we have a deal, some will like it and some won't. If the Commons then
:19:31. > :19:35.voted for the deal, off we go, but if it votes against the deal, it
:19:36. > :19:41.isn't a vote for a better deal, it's not even a vote to stay or leave, it
:19:42. > :19:44.is just a vote for no deal. I think... These are all
:19:45. > :19:50.hypotheticals, but I think it's more possible than not, actually. It
:19:51. > :19:54.takes two to tango and the Europeans are in no mood to give us anything
:19:55. > :19:59.other than a hard, clear Brexit. That may suit the government. It
:20:00. > :20:04.might but it might not suit them because they need to sell to British
:20:05. > :20:08.industry this transitional deal of Nissan getting a piece of the
:20:09. > :20:13.action, the insurance industry getting equivalents. Even this
:20:14. > :20:19.fairly Eurosceptic Tory government would not accent a straightforward
:20:20. > :20:24.brick. Do you have a clear idea in your mind off what the broad
:20:25. > :20:29.strategic aims should be off Brexit? I can give my opinion, I don't have
:20:30. > :20:34.any inside knowledge. I think the government is likely to make a very
:20:35. > :20:41.broad offer, 00 offer on tariffs and an offered to translate the regular
:20:42. > :20:48.tui services for trade into a system of mutual recognition -- regulatory
:20:49. > :20:52.services. It is in everybody's interests to do that. The
:20:53. > :20:57.alternative, especially on tariffs, if they don't want to do that offer,
:20:58. > :21:02.we would go to the WTO tariffs and we would raise a lot of money on EU
:21:03. > :21:08.imports into the country which we could spend an Loring business
:21:09. > :21:16.taxation, improving incentives. -- Loring. -- Loring taxes. There is
:21:17. > :21:20.this talk about access to the Single Market. If they wanted us to pay for
:21:21. > :21:25.access, then they are caught tariffs and we will pay them. I didn't ask
:21:26. > :21:30.about tariffs, that's another issue. Where does this leave the Supreme
:21:31. > :21:36.Court? The top judge on the Supreme Court said, I'm not saying it's his
:21:37. > :21:40.opinion, I suspect it isn't but he said people will wonder, if
:21:41. > :21:43.Parliament has voted for Brexit, as it did by such a huge amount, what's
:21:44. > :21:49.the point of the Supreme Court? The answer perhaps is that the court may
:21:50. > :21:53.still insist that there has to be legislation. The court could insist
:21:54. > :22:02.that but I think we're beginning to see that this action has been rather
:22:03. > :22:12.otiose. Otiose? An American elevator? That's Otis! Unnecessary
:22:13. > :22:17.and time wasting. The Supreme Court had to get themselves out of a
:22:18. > :22:20.difficult spot. The courts don't like to interfere in Parliament. A
:22:21. > :22:26.rather odd situation where we are waiting for a judgment... Spending
:22:27. > :22:36.millions of pounds of taxpayers money on this otiose... On the other
:22:37. > :22:39.point you raised about the process, it is vital that we have a
:22:40. > :22:44.transitional arrangement as part of the withdrawal agreement. We aren't
:22:45. > :22:48.going to get the full deal with in the process. I'm going to stop you
:22:49. > :22:51.because we will definitely be back on this! More than once! Thank you
:22:52. > :22:53.both. Many MPs seem to agree
:22:54. > :22:56.that the referendum was a vote in favour of stronger
:22:57. > :22:58.controls on immigration. But beyond that, there doesn't seem
:22:59. > :23:00.to be much agreement on what our immigration system
:23:01. > :23:02.should look like once Well, today the Home Affairs Select
:23:03. > :23:06.Committee is launching a nationwide Its chair, Yvette Cooper,
:23:07. > :23:10.has been speaking this morning. Let's take a look at
:23:11. > :23:13.what she had to say. We know that immigration
:23:14. > :23:16.is important for Britain but it also has to be controlled and managed
:23:17. > :23:19.so that the system is fair, and so the public can
:23:20. > :23:21.have confidence in it Right now, that doesn't happen
:23:22. > :23:31.and public concern has steadily grown and it has consistently been
:23:32. > :23:36.among the highest concerns Often the debate about immigration
:23:37. > :23:42.has been angry and polarised and has been an excuse for some people
:23:43. > :23:47.to whip up fear or anger and divide communities,
:23:48. > :23:50.making it harder to have thoughtful discussion about the
:23:51. > :23:56.reforms that are needed. And some people have
:23:57. > :24:05.felt that they simply What do you think the referendum
:24:06. > :24:09.told us about people's opinions on immigration? I think for a lot of
:24:10. > :24:14.people it was about immigration and wanting more control. For others it
:24:15. > :24:18.wasn't and we shouldn't oversimplify it. For some people it was about
:24:19. > :24:23.sovereignty, for some people it was concerns about the economy, simply
:24:24. > :24:29.wanting change but for a lot of people it was about immigration. I
:24:30. > :24:33.think more widely, if you look at concern across the country, around
:24:34. > :24:36.half of the people in opinion polls will say that immigration benefits
:24:37. > :24:43.the economy but three quarters will say that they want the level to be
:24:44. > :24:51.lower. A mixture of opinions, in favour of coming in and staying out.
:24:52. > :24:55.You seem to have all of the information. The enquiry is going to
:24:56. > :25:00.look at three things. On Brexit, what does it mean? What kinds of
:25:01. > :25:05.controls do people want? What sorts of reforms could you have? Sometimes
:25:06. > :25:10.people have talked about work permits, points-based systems,
:25:11. > :25:15.controls on low skilled migration, free movement. There is a series of
:25:16. > :25:19.different things. We know people want change, but what kind of
:25:20. > :25:23.change? People don't have a voice in that because there is no government
:25:24. > :25:26.consultation happening. We want another Trinity for people across
:25:27. > :25:34.the country to get involved in the debate. -- and opportunity. When you
:25:35. > :25:37.look at Brexit and its effects, is it about Loring the number of
:25:38. > :25:43.immigrants coming here? It is going to be open to whatever anybody wants
:25:44. > :25:48.to raise with us. If people across the UK say that isn't what we voted
:25:49. > :25:52.for in the referendum, even if we voted Leave, and a lot of people say
:25:53. > :25:58.we are happy with immigration, then that is what you advise the
:25:59. > :26:02.government to do? I wouldn't expect that to be the conclusion but we
:26:03. > :26:07.should have a chance to have the debate. Would you admit that you
:26:08. > :26:12.didn't know what was going on in your own constituency and nor did
:26:13. > :26:18.many Labour MPs. Your seat is in Normington. If you look at the vote,
:26:19. > :26:22.63% voted leave, would you say that you are out of touch with your
:26:23. > :26:25.constituents? No, because I knew people were concerned about
:26:26. > :26:30.immigration. But you did nothing about it. And they were concerned
:26:31. > :26:34.about the EU as well. That's one of the reasons why I thought, even
:26:35. > :26:38.before the referendum, that we should have more restrictions on
:26:39. > :26:42.free movement and I argued that before the referendum because I
:26:43. > :26:48.think the real concern in an area like mine is immigration being
:26:49. > :26:53.exploited by employers using it to undercut wages and jobs. This isn't
:26:54. > :27:00.about one constituency. It is a place to start. It is about all over
:27:01. > :27:06.the country. You are a Labour MP and it is a start and David Miliband
:27:07. > :27:09.also said that you recognise the problem of too many low skilled
:27:10. > :27:14.migrants from Eastern Europe but were not prepared to end freedom of
:27:15. > :27:16.movement, were you? I called for reforms to freedom of movement
:27:17. > :27:20.because I thought we should have that within the EU, that is
:27:21. > :27:24.something I have always thought. David Cameron asked for that and did
:27:25. > :27:30.not get it. We had that debate in the referendum, but we know that the
:27:31. > :27:34.Brexit negotiations are going to start, the key thing is what our
:27:35. > :27:38.people are going to want from it? My view is that we shouldn't be arguing
:27:39. > :27:42.to carry on with free movement, there have been a series of issues.
:27:43. > :27:47.We should be looking at what controls people want. I don't want
:27:48. > :27:51.to prejudge what has to be a cross-party enquiry and a different
:27:52. > :27:54.kind of enquiry. Select committees don't normally do this kind of
:27:55. > :27:59.enquiry and we will go around the country listening to people's views
:28:00. > :28:03.and see if we can build a consensus. Often it has been too divided. And
:28:04. > :28:06.within the Labour Party because you say you recognise some of the
:28:07. > :28:13.concerns and would like restrictions on freedom of movement but Jeremy
:28:14. > :28:16.Corbyn, Diane Abbott and Emily form bree believes that immigration has
:28:17. > :28:21.been hugely beneficial, they have the figures to back it up, so how
:28:22. > :28:25.does Labour square that? You think the numbers should come down and
:28:26. > :28:30.they don't. I disagree with Jeremy and Diane on that and that's
:28:31. > :28:37.something I've said for some time. So does the party have an agreed
:28:38. > :28:40.position on the issue on which you are doing the enquiry? Party has to
:28:41. > :28:44.have its processes to make the decision and that is for the front
:28:45. > :28:47.bench but what we are trying to do is a backbench select committee
:28:48. > :28:51.enquiry where we are not driven by the front bench positions, whether
:28:52. > :28:56.that's what the government says or the Labour front bench day. We
:28:57. > :28:59.listen to evidence from around the country and try and pull together
:29:00. > :29:05.what a consensus should be. I agree that immigration has benefited,
:29:06. > :29:08.people coming from abroad, has benefited the country for centuries,
:29:09. > :29:12.it just has to be managed so the system is fair. We've talked about
:29:13. > :29:16.immigration for a long time, people may say that we have had a
:29:17. > :29:19.referendum, not Mrs Willey on immigration but it was a big part of
:29:20. > :29:26.it for many people in favour and against, so what will be enquiry do?
:29:27. > :29:28.-- not necessarily. There are two processes, one where the government
:29:29. > :29:32.gets a position on freedom of movement, it doesn't have one. The
:29:33. > :29:38.government says it wants to restrict freedom of movement. It has not
:29:39. > :29:41.given us any detail. Labour needs a national policy forum and must come
:29:42. > :29:45.up with what it wants to replace freedom of movement. Freedom of
:29:46. > :29:49.movement has gone, it is part of the Treaty of Lisbon, we will be out in
:29:50. > :29:54.two years, so all of the parties need a replacement. The process of
:29:55. > :29:58.democratic, liberal minded politicians trying to hear and also
:29:59. > :30:04.heal what is coming from working class communities. We have this kind
:30:05. > :30:09.of euphemism, concerned about migration. I come from a town where
:30:10. > :30:13.there hasn't been a lot of immigration but it is now the target
:30:14. > :30:17.of Ukip, they are apparently going to stand in the by-election. I know
:30:18. > :30:22.how migration has played with my dad's generation. It seemed to them
:30:23. > :30:27.that what was being said is that we have destroyed your union rights and
:30:28. > :30:33.many services you rely on and here is the ideal worker, somebody with
:30:34. > :30:37.no writes, no right to vote, and we need to be able to go to them and
:30:38. > :30:42.say, we have an answer, a clear political answer that allows you to
:30:43. > :30:45.be comfortable with what are inevitable high levels of migration
:30:46. > :30:53.with or without the EU. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn has been
:30:54. > :30:56.wrong to say he is not worried, relaxed about numbers, for those
:30:57. > :30:59.communities you talked about? He specifically said, somebody put to
:31:00. > :31:03.him, is there going to be a numbers thing? I think you don't start out
:31:04. > :31:08.from a number. You would then have to go to a General Hospital across
:31:09. > :31:11.the road in London and say which of the Greek, Italian or Spanish nurses
:31:12. > :31:14.you don't want to be there. You start from the principle of
:31:15. > :31:16.reengaging with people's genuine concerns. Thank you very much,
:31:17. > :31:22.Yvette Cooper. Fresh splits have emerged
:31:23. > :31:24.in the Corbynite campaigning organisation, Momentum,
:31:25. > :31:26.which was set up in the wake of Jeremy Corbyn's election
:31:27. > :31:31.as Labour leader in 2015. The power struggle has placed
:31:32. > :31:34.a question mark over the future of the organisation and those
:31:35. > :31:36.close to Jeremy Corbyn fear the emergence of what they call
:31:37. > :31:49.a "parallel party". Momentum emerged just over a year
:31:50. > :31:53.ago, following Jeremy Corbyn' elections. Now at the centre of a
:31:54. > :31:57.power struggle t has over 20,000 members and tens of thousands more
:31:58. > :32:03.on its valuable data base, currently in the hands of its founder. Join
:32:04. > :32:08.Momentum, let's build our movement. It is a great campaigning tool and
:32:09. > :32:13.played a crucial role in helping get Jeremy Corbyn re-elected in the
:32:14. > :32:19.summer. But now, so-called younger movementists, complain of a takeover
:32:20. > :32:23.by older sectarianists. After a vote last Saturday handed power to a few
:32:24. > :32:28.dozen delegates, rather than giving thousands of members a vote in
:32:29. > :32:31.shaping Momentum's future direction. One on the winning side was Jill
:32:32. > :32:36.Mountford from the Alliance For Workers' Liberty. She is a member of
:32:37. > :32:40.Momentum's ruling committee but was ex#13e8d from the Labour Party. What
:32:41. > :32:46.direction does she want Momentum to move in? I want it to pryer
:32:47. > :32:50.advertise a campaign against austerity, against social inequality
:32:51. > :32:53.and a campaign that rises the idea that solidarity wants working class
:32:54. > :32:57.people fighting for a better national health service a better
:32:58. > :33:00.welfare state. For the public ownership of the utilities, of the
:33:01. > :33:04.banks of the railways. These are the things that Momentum should be
:33:05. > :33:10.campaigning for now. But some activists fear this could lead to a
:33:11. > :33:15.takeover of Momentum. One member of Jeremy Corbyn's office told me,
:33:16. > :33:19."Momentum is starting to look like a parallel political party", describe
:33:20. > :33:24.Saturday's result as "extremely problem attic." Momentum's women's
:33:25. > :33:28.rep, Laura Murray was at the meeting and was horrified and wrote that the
:33:29. > :33:32."Magsal committee was like a doughnut with a desire for change
:33:33. > :33:47.with a sticky centre of angry socialist stalwarts. She said the:
:33:48. > :33:56.Professor Cecile Wright was also at the meeting. I'm not quite sure
:33:57. > :34:01.whether we have lost a great deal. The thing is, members will still
:34:02. > :34:05.participate in the activities. I would have preferred the greater
:34:06. > :34:11.participation of one member one vote. Because, it's an in accord
:34:12. > :34:15.with what Momentum stands for. So, without wishing to reference the
:34:16. > :34:18.people's front of Judaea here, could this potential split of the
:34:19. > :34:23.left-of-centre left, be good news for the centre left? I don't think
:34:24. > :34:27.this is really good news for anyone in the Labour Party. Jeremy Corbyn
:34:28. > :34:31.has said we are on general election footing and Momentum who have
:34:32. > :34:34.brought in lots of new supporters in the party through Jeremy Corbyn's
:34:35. > :34:37.leadership have spent six weeks arguing about a meeting about a
:34:38. > :34:41.conference that is going to be taking place in two months' time.
:34:42. > :34:46.Instead of focussing on the kind of issues that we should be foe cousin
:34:47. > :34:52.on, in the lead-up to a general election. -- focussing on. How do
:34:53. > :34:55.this develop? The left issues that there are involved in the national
:34:56. > :34:59.committee, on this occasion, they want to be part of the mainstream, a
:35:00. > :35:05.mainstream platform to talk about socialist ideas. Floss desire
:35:06. > :35:13.whatsoever to be a Momentum party. But even the prospect of some
:35:14. > :35:14.Trotskyists being handed power to shape Momentum is already proving a
:35:15. > :35:17.contentious issue. We're joined now by Luke Akehurst
:35:18. > :35:31.who is secretary of Labour First, And spaul with us. Paul it was
:35:32. > :35:37.writeden in August that Trotskyists were infiltrating Momentum. And the
:35:38. > :35:40.Corbyn said he was pedalling conspiracy theories. The person
:35:41. > :35:45.there, Jill Mountford is not a member of the Labour Party. How she
:35:46. > :35:49.could have been infiltrating Labour by Momentum is difficult to see.
:35:50. > :35:53.Vieia. Why is this happening? In response to this big bust-up that
:35:54. > :35:57.happened in summer, Momentum was trying to gits act #20g9. The way it
:35:58. > :36:02.was trying to do -- get its act together. It was two fold. One
:36:03. > :36:06.member one vote and having an app, like on your cell phone to vote for
:36:07. > :36:12.things that you wanted. What is it there to do? To avoid tiny groups of
:36:13. > :36:18.he enactment Trotskyists from the 1970s taking over. That's their key
:36:19. > :36:21.skill. Are they trying to do that? Well, look some are not Trotskyists.
:36:22. > :36:27.What does that lady call them in the article there? You know a sticky
:36:28. > :36:34.centre of older people obsessed with sectarian methodology. Socialist
:36:35. > :36:36.stalwarts People who are obsessed with anti-Zionism, people obsessed
:36:37. > :36:42.with what we call single issue politics. So it is not just the
:36:43. > :36:45.small - some are not Trotskyists, some are rampant supporters of
:36:46. > :36:49.Vladimir Putin. And a lot of them are not in the Labour Party. We
:36:50. > :36:53.should - Momentum I'm a member of Momentum. The point if you are
:36:54. > :36:59.infiltrating, you are not in the Labour Party but you want to get
:37:00. > :37:02.into T The point of Momentum. It has a tiny apparatus and cannot police
:37:03. > :37:07.itself the way a party K one of the reasons why people like me joined
:37:08. > :37:11.it, is you have Labour First, you saw them there, we need an
:37:12. > :37:15.organisation in Labour that broadly supports Jeremy's politics. I need
:37:16. > :37:20.to bring him in. What due make of it? Well -- do you make? It is quite
:37:21. > :37:24.extraordinary. For people on my moderate wing of the Labour Party,
:37:25. > :37:28.we sat back, watching the spectacle of an organisation that just
:37:29. > :37:32.delivered us a second leadership election victory for Jeremy Corbyn,
:37:33. > :37:37.ripping itself apart over the most obscure issues of internal policy
:37:38. > :37:40.making. I don't understand why an inTesche grouping within the Labour
:37:41. > :37:42.Party needs -- an internal grouping within the Labour Party needs to
:37:43. > :37:46.have conferences and policy making. That's the job of the Labour Party.
:37:47. > :37:51.I don't understand why they didn't listen to what Tom Watson said in
:37:52. > :37:55.the summer. He said "These Trotskyists groups up to this,
:37:56. > :37:58.Momentum could straightforwardly say the Labour Party has expelled you
:37:59. > :38:02.because you are a member of an entryist organisation, you have no
:38:03. > :38:06.place in a group whose primary function is to operate inside the
:38:07. > :38:11.Labour Party." They didn't listen and made a rod for their own back.
:38:12. > :38:16.The daughter of the Unite Chief of Staff, Andrew Murray, a leading
:38:17. > :38:20.member of Momentum, she said of trod skiism "We would be engaging in
:38:21. > :38:25.collective self-denial if we were to downplay its prevalence in
:38:26. > :38:29.Momentum." And goes on to talk bits vocal, disruptive, overbearing but
:38:30. > :38:34.they have won key positions in the regional commented and comments "The
:38:35. > :38:37.sectarian attitude taken by Trotskyite groups within Momentum is
:38:38. > :38:43.destructive in our movement? I would say that's broadly right. What I
:38:44. > :38:47.would finish is what you said, although slightly less VIP
:38:48. > :38:51.dictively. Momentum needs to become ready to be an affiliated society
:38:52. > :38:55.for Labour. Everybody has to be in the Labour Party, and confirm to
:38:56. > :39:02.Labour Party rules, and if somebody breaks Labour rules as for example,
:39:03. > :39:06.Jackie Watson was doomed to have done, so she's suspended from the
:39:07. > :39:11.party. So a modern Tribune group? Yes but not like Tribune in this
:39:12. > :39:17.sense, we need to be a network, observe, broad and diverse. Would
:39:18. > :39:22.that satisfy you? Well, yes, I don't - I think it is fine for
:39:23. > :39:25.organisations with particular left-wing policy stance that want to
:39:26. > :39:30.take Labour in a particular direction to exist inside the Labour
:39:31. > :39:33.Party, as long as they are not providing a bridgehead for people
:39:34. > :39:39.whose loyalty is to another party. You think they are. . So Jill
:39:40. > :39:42.Mountford she is a members of Alliance For Workers' Liberty, she
:39:43. > :39:46.was expelled from the Labour Party for that. It was a separate
:39:47. > :39:50.political party registered on the Electoral Commission. It is blatant
:39:51. > :39:55.in its wish to enter into the Labour Party and recruit people and try to
:39:56. > :39:59.take it over. Were you with David Aaron Viv, a former member of the
:40:00. > :40:03.Communist Party of Great Britain. He said "Labour is just a carcass for
:40:04. > :40:08.the trots to feast off." I don't think it is that far gone but if it
:40:09. > :40:13.car advice on at this level that's had you it'll end up. I think the
:40:14. > :40:16.party is in healthier state below the national level, where Momentum
:40:17. > :40:24.as a whole is being pushed back. Being pushed back? Being pushed back
:40:25. > :40:28.at regional conferences and constituency parties AGMs. The
:40:29. > :40:35.people on my side of the party are in fine fettle. You are in Momentum.
:40:36. > :40:39.Tell us what it is like. Buzz Feed published an account of a meeting,
:40:40. > :40:43.it involved 18 members of the national committee, including the
:40:44. > :40:48.fire union boss, pretty much on the hard left along with for people on
:40:49. > :40:54.the Trotskyite group, Mack 2, which you have referred to. How many are
:40:55. > :40:58.---ing Mc-2. How many are in this appliance, I don't think you would
:40:59. > :41:09.need a double Devon and Cornwall bus. -- Alliance For Workers'
:41:10. > :41:12.Liberty and Labour Party Marxists. I think that's Red Labour. I have
:41:13. > :41:18.tried to research. My short answer, I have no idea. I have never been to
:41:19. > :41:22.a meeting. Why did you join them? Out of solidarity. The majority of
:41:23. > :41:29.new members, the energy that they brought, whilst you are right, that
:41:30. > :41:33.some of our local constituency party is increedably vibrant and include
:41:34. > :41:36.people from all parts of the country but to get things done you need to
:41:37. > :41:40.have some form of local organisation. But I can tell you
:41:41. > :41:45.this, if Jill Mountford is not allowed into the Labour Party and I
:41:46. > :41:50.cannot see her in short order being allowed to be in it and remains an
:41:51. > :41:53.expelled member of the party and remains in Momentum I will not
:41:54. > :41:57.remain it and nor will, I can tell you thousands of us. This will be
:41:58. > :42:00.sorted in the direction of party loyalty, discipline and a moving on,
:42:01. > :42:05.very quickly. Well, I hope it is sorted. Because it is really
:42:06. > :42:12.confusing. Me, too, actually. It is like the People's Front of Judaea.
:42:13. > :42:20.What does PC stand for? Provisional committee. Even they said it was a
:42:21. > :42:22.coup I looked it up. People need to look at the other faction of
:42:23. > :42:27.Momentum and the background of people. Certainly in terms of family
:42:28. > :42:33.background but Laura Murray's dad, is or was on the Poll it Borough of
:42:34. > :42:36.the Communist Party of Britain. There is an element of Stalinists
:42:37. > :42:44.Trotskyism going on here. That is not yet a crime. Final li, I would
:42:45. > :42:48.suggest interestingly, finally, I would suggest it is interesting,
:42:49. > :42:51.maybe from Mr Corbyn's position is Len McCluskey and him standing again
:42:52. > :42:56.for election, as I understand t you are a member of Unite. What do you
:42:57. > :43:01.make? You shouldn't underestimate the strategic pornces of this, if
:43:02. > :43:06.Len was to lose to injury articled Coin who will probably be the
:43:07. > :43:12.moderate candidate. -- Gerard. Do you think he will? I think it is
:43:13. > :43:14.possible. That it is very important in ter with the big blocks of vote
:43:15. > :43:33.that is come with Unite and I the push lined
:43:34. > :43:36.jeered Coin will be the push on labour's rights and stop interfering
:43:37. > :43:42.in the policies of the Labour Party so much.
:43:43. > :43:44.Our MPs are all elected by a simple majority in one
:43:45. > :43:48.But across the Kingdom we will now use a variety of electoral systems.
:43:49. > :43:51.But now Conservative MP, Ranil Jayawardena, wants first past
:43:52. > :43:55.the post for every election in England as he told
:43:56. > :44:00.It is first-past-the-post that gives our constituents the certainty
:44:01. > :44:04.of knowing who their representative is in this place and this is widely
:44:05. > :44:09.understood by the people of this country as well.
:44:10. > :44:12.In the referendum of 2011, first-past-the-post was strongly
:44:13. > :44:14.supported by a margin of more than 2-1.
:44:15. > :44:16.Its greatest strength, of course, is that every person has
:44:17. > :44:20.one vote and the candidate who gets the most votes wins.
:44:21. > :44:27.It does not unnecessarily burden the taxpayer with equipment
:44:28. > :44:29.and administration costs and the results are declared
:44:30. > :44:31.quickly, which provides additional certainty,
:44:32. > :44:40.And the Conservative MP Ranil Jaywardena joins me now.
:44:41. > :44:42.And we're also joined from Cardiff by Katie Ghose
:44:43. > :44:45.from the Electoral Reform Society, which campaigns for more
:44:46. > :44:58.Welcome to both of you. What are you so worried about? The way that
:44:59. > :45:02.people voted in 2011 was very clear, 2-to-1, they want to keep first past
:45:03. > :45:07.the post and bit by bit it is being chipped away. We should listen to
:45:08. > :45:11.the people. The problem with first past the post is that you can't turn
:45:12. > :45:14.the clock back, we have a range of different systems used for different
:45:15. > :45:19.elections and it gives other parties a chance. We are turning the clock
:45:20. > :45:22.back according to the wishes of the people in terms of the European
:45:23. > :45:27.Union, the people have said that we should leave, why don't we listen to
:45:28. > :45:32.what they said in 2011 by more than 2-to-1 and allow people a clear
:45:33. > :45:38.choice? What was the turnout? You have that data, not me. 67% of
:45:39. > :45:43.people voted. The turnout was lower than we would like because it wasn't
:45:44. > :45:48.a local election day. Another part of the bill was to increase turnout
:45:49. > :45:53.in local elections. What do you say in response to the idea that this is
:45:54. > :45:56.listening to the people? It is unusual to have this conversation
:45:57. > :46:00.about turning the clock back. This proposal would be a big step
:46:01. > :46:04.backwards for democracy just at a time when people are wanting to
:46:05. > :46:09.support more parties than ever before and to have a real choice.
:46:10. > :46:14.Downgrading institutions and officeholder elections that are
:46:15. > :46:17.important to the most archaic voting system would actually denied people
:46:18. > :46:22.a choice in the vote that counts and there's a reason why every new is
:46:23. > :46:27.the Jewish in an office like the police and crime commissioners have
:46:28. > :46:29.adopted a fairer system -- white is a new institution and office.
:46:30. > :46:37.Is there grounds for the voting public to change the system even
:46:38. > :46:43.further? There is definitely growing support for the growing principle
:46:44. > :46:46.that votes should be fairly reflected in Parliament. But
:46:47. > :46:51.changing the first past the post system? What's the evidence that
:46:52. > :46:54.people want change it? The latest research shows three quarters of
:46:55. > :47:00.people believe there should be a much better reflection of votes cast
:47:01. > :47:05.in the number of seats that parties get in parliaments and assemblies.
:47:06. > :47:10.We live in a multiparty democracy whichever way you luck at it,
:47:11. > :47:18.although Labour the Tories dominate. In 2011, they got two thirds of the
:47:19. > :47:24.vote. This is about whether we want political parties to be able to
:47:25. > :47:28.stage deals up, like, sadly, the coalition, which is thankfully a
:47:29. > :47:33.rarity. Was the coalition a mistake? I want a majority government so that
:47:34. > :47:39.the people know... That was first past the post. It is a rarity.
:47:40. > :47:43.People need a clear choice. People knew what Tony Blair was going to
:47:44. > :47:49.achieve, they can make a clear choice and kick out a government and
:47:50. > :47:52.they can't do that with PR. That is simple, everybody understands first
:47:53. > :47:56.past the post. When you look at the other ways of voting, the
:47:57. > :47:59.alternative vote, single transferable vote, I'm not sure I
:48:00. > :48:05.could give you a definitive expiration of each of them. People
:48:06. > :48:08.understand first past the post. People understand and are coping
:48:09. > :48:13.extremely well with a variety of systems that we have in place in the
:48:14. > :48:16.UK and I don't think it would be for any of us to say to Scottish or
:48:17. > :48:21.Welsh voters and people who voted in the London assembly elections that
:48:22. > :48:27.they can't cope. I didn't say they can't cope, they may say they prefer
:48:28. > :48:31.a simple system. There is no evidence and certainly not a
:48:32. > :48:37.groundswell for people to stay with the status quo. The two choice
:48:38. > :48:43.system, supplementary vote for the mayor and police commissioners. If
:48:44. > :48:47.you have quite a lot of executive power, it is important to have the
:48:48. > :48:51.broad support of your community and that is why the two choice system,
:48:52. > :48:59.the supplementary vote system, was introduced, so people could have
:49:00. > :49:03.legitimacy. So there is no evidence? The Electoral Reform Society is
:49:04. > :49:07.supposedly a charity but they are not very independent at all. Bernard
:49:08. > :49:11.Jenkins looked at this before as chairman of the public
:49:12. > :49:15.administration committee. Not independent, based on what? Katie
:49:16. > :49:20.has previously sought selection as a Labour Party candidate. Most Labour
:49:21. > :49:23.MPs support first past the post. It is important not to allow the
:49:24. > :49:27.society to speak for the whole country. The people who spoke for
:49:28. > :49:30.the country are the people who spoke in the referendum. You must answer
:49:31. > :49:36.that point that you are not independent. I am proud to be the
:49:37. > :49:41.chief executive of a nonpartisan organisation, every day of the week
:49:42. > :49:43.we work with parties from all just make people from all parties and
:49:44. > :49:49.none. We are concerned about voter choice. People have changed voting
:49:50. > :49:53.patterns for a long time, wanting to support a wider range of parties
:49:54. > :49:57.than ever before. The problem is that we are trying to cram what
:49:58. > :50:01.worked for a 2-party system when most of us voted for Conservative or
:50:02. > :50:06.Labour, doesn't work any more. People are wanting a real choice in
:50:07. > :50:11.their politics and that's what myself and my organisation are all
:50:12. > :50:14.about. Why do you think it would be particularly appropriate in these
:50:15. > :50:18.turbulent times? People want to be able to decide on a host of issues,
:50:19. > :50:24.how the country is taken forward and how their local area is governed. We
:50:25. > :50:28.haven't discussed giving people a super Thursday, a chance to shape
:50:29. > :50:33.local government across every area of government, which works in other
:50:34. > :50:36.countries and we would save over ?20 million, and it would give people a
:50:37. > :50:45.decisive decision over how the country is governed. That's it,
:50:46. > :50:48.thank you. Interesting development being reported by Bloomberg, the
:50:49. > :50:55.McDonald's Corporation saying is going to create a new holding
:50:56. > :50:59.company based in the UK, moving from Luxembourg and paying tax on the
:51:00. > :51:03.royalties it receives from food sales everywhere in the world
:51:04. > :51:04.outside the United States. Interesting development. HMRC may be
:51:05. > :51:06.opening the champagne. Now, it's that time of year
:51:07. > :51:09.when the pundits get out their crystal balls and start
:51:10. > :51:11.making predictions for But if you'd bet this time 12 months
:51:12. > :51:16.ago on Britain voting to leave the European Union, or
:51:17. > :51:19.Donald Trump being elected President of spare cash to enjoy this
:51:20. > :51:25.Christmas. So, what could the new
:51:26. > :51:27.year have in store? For instance, could 2017 be the year
:51:28. > :51:30.when we see Jeremy Corbyn walk We'll be discussing that with our
:51:31. > :51:34.Guest of the Day in a moment. But first here's a look back on some
:51:35. > :51:37.of the more unexpected Just as warning, there's some flash
:51:38. > :51:48.photography in the mix. Good God. I will be advocating vote
:51:49. > :51:59.lead. -- Leave. The British people have spoken and the answer is, we're
:52:00. > :52:02.out. Extraordinary moment. Brexit! I think the country requires fresh
:52:03. > :52:12.leadership to take it in this direction. I no longer have
:52:13. > :52:16.confidence in his leadership and he then dismissed me from the Shadow
:52:17. > :52:20.Cabinet. I don't think Jeremy is in a position to provide the leadership
:52:21. > :52:28.we need to be able to offer the voters and the country. Keep Corbyn!
:52:29. > :52:35.Jeremy Corbyn is elected the leader of the Labour Party. After just 18
:52:36. > :52:39.days in charge it is reported that Diane Jaynes has quit as leader of
:52:40. > :52:46.Ukip. There's never been a US presidential campaign quite like it.
:52:47. > :52:54.OK! They have just called Florida for Donald Trump.
:52:55. > :53:02.An amazing evening, it's been an amazing two year period and I love
:53:03. > :53:09.this country. Thank you, thank you very much. You don't often hear that
:53:10. > :53:11.in American presidential candidates, loving America!
:53:12. > :53:13.What memories, and that was just the short version.
:53:14. > :53:15.Paul Mason is still with us and we're joined now
:53:16. > :53:18.by Philip Collins from The Times who was also a former
:53:19. > :53:24.Have the odds improved on Mr Corbyn becoming Prime Minister? I don't
:53:25. > :53:30.think so, unfortunately. If you are 16 points behind at this stage it is
:53:31. > :53:33.probably not likely. To be fair to Mr Corbyn, you must say that
:53:34. > :53:37.Labour's problems go back before he was the leader, it is going to be
:53:38. > :53:40.difficult for Labour to win if it can't regain a significant number of
:53:41. > :53:47.seats in Scotland and it lost that before he became the leader. Indeed.
:53:48. > :53:51.So the task is very difficult. The polls don't have a great track
:53:52. > :53:55.record but they have often been wrong within a margin of error, like
:53:56. > :54:00.the US election and they were not that inaccurate on the popular vote
:54:01. > :54:05.there. They would have to be really wrong about Mr Corbyn for him to be
:54:06. > :54:08.the next Prime Minister. I don't think they're wrong, but they may
:54:09. > :54:12.underestimate Labour support in England and Wales by a bit. At the
:54:13. > :54:17.moment that spy will be where we are. -- that's probably where we
:54:18. > :54:23.are. Britain leaves the European Union, that is big and we are in a
:54:24. > :54:29.new crisis which is going to get worse next year. What Labour then
:54:30. > :54:35.has to do is basically come to power as an insurgency and say that we
:54:36. > :54:39.have a solution, if the Tory government falls apart. They are to
:54:40. > :54:43.be screaming at each other in number ten over this Boris Johnson thing.
:54:44. > :54:47.As soon as they try to do anything positive they fall apart. That's how
:54:48. > :54:52.I see Labour getting into a position to form a government. In order to
:54:53. > :54:56.suggest that Labour could form a government you have two postulate
:54:57. > :54:59.some kind of catastrophe for the Theresa May government over the next
:55:00. > :55:05.year or so and the obvious way to do that is to say that leaving the EU
:55:06. > :55:09.will be a disaster for the country. I don't take the apocalypse view, I
:55:10. > :55:12.don't think it's going to be a disaster and even if there is
:55:13. > :55:16.economic detriment come I don't think it is going to be a decisive
:55:17. > :55:19.event like black Wednesday, I think it will be incremental and slow, so
:55:20. > :55:30.the political consequences when to be as slow and -- as immediate. Can
:55:31. > :55:34.we see Mr Corbyn in the same anti-mainstream vein as Donald
:55:35. > :55:38.Trump? I wouldn't put him there because if you look at immigration,
:55:39. > :55:43.he hasn't made a single attempt to be populist about it. I don't think
:55:44. > :55:48.the left in general is populist at the moment but it has answers about
:55:49. > :55:54.what Britain must become as a post-Brexit society and in a world
:55:55. > :55:58.where globalisation falls apart and the European Union, our closest
:55:59. > :56:04.market, is falling apart and we have a security situation with Russia, we
:56:05. > :56:08.will need parties that can embody social justice and have historic
:56:09. > :56:13.links with working people. The idea that we had a recession, that the
:56:14. > :56:17.answer to that would be... We're going to have a recession. Let's
:56:18. > :56:21.assume we do, extraordinary to suppose that the answered to that
:56:22. > :56:25.will be Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, when they are 20 points
:56:26. > :56:33.behind the Conservatives. It wasn't the answer in the 1930s. It seems
:56:34. > :56:36.unlikely that any... I don't think any leader, any leadership team has
:56:37. > :56:42.come back from the kind of deficits that Labour is running against the
:56:43. > :56:50.Tories. The reaction against what you could call recessionary levels
:56:51. > :56:53.of unemployment in Italy, Spain and Portugal, especially places like
:56:54. > :56:57.France, has been a move to the right, the hard right rather than
:56:58. > :57:00.the hard left. That's been because the social Democratic party in
:57:01. > :57:04.France for example has proved incapable of moving to the left.
:57:05. > :57:13.They tried when they came to power and then they gave it up. They tried
:57:14. > :57:19.with Francois Mitterrand in 92. Places where radical left solutions
:57:20. > :57:22.have been tried, like Greece, they may have been defeated by the IMF
:57:23. > :57:29.but they won two elections and remained in power, an important
:57:30. > :57:32.shield for the Greek people. 20% for the radical left in Spain, three
:57:33. > :57:44.major cities are being run well by them. That is what Labour would have
:57:45. > :57:47.done if Jeremy were not in power. Is Jeremy Corbyn a transitional figure
:57:48. > :57:51.for Labour to something else, something on the left? Very
:57:52. > :57:57.probably, it is probable the next leader will be on the left, not
:57:58. > :58:03.quite where Jeremy Corbyn is. If I was 67 and if someone suggested
:58:04. > :58:05.anything other ban me being transitional why would be surprised.
:58:06. > :58:12.We will need decades to reinvent Labour as a radical left party.
:58:13. > :58:17.Decades? You said that there is a recession coming. The recession is
:58:18. > :58:22.predicted next year by the OBR. No, they didn't. Much more important, we
:58:23. > :58:26.should have an election as soon as possible. Labour have to keep saying
:58:27. > :58:28.that, I believe we can win it. Thank you.
:58:29. > :58:32.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:33. > :58:37.I can't remember the? Back -- the question!
:58:38. > :58:51.What is the correct answer? I don't know where it is. Just about
:58:52. > :58:53.managing, the Jams. You should have told me! That's the point of the
:58:54. > :58:54.quiz. The one o'clock news is starting
:58:55. > :58:56.over on BBC One now. I am on This Week tonight
:58:57. > :59:01.with Liz Kendall, Michael Portillo, Dermot Murnagan and
:59:02. > :59:09.Miriam Gonzalez Durantez. He's a scientist.
:59:10. > :59:12.Brilliant, apparently.