:00:00. > :00:35.This is BBC News - and these are the top stories
:00:36. > :00:38.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.A cross-party group calls on the government to guarantee that
:00:42. > :00:45.EU citizens living in the UK can stay after Brexit.
:00:46. > :00:49.Leading Leave campaigner Gisela Stuart tells us why.
:00:50. > :00:52.Theresa May is under pressure to sanction a rise in council tax
:00:53. > :00:57.in England to boost spending on social care for the elderly.
:00:58. > :01:00.Is the food served in prisons causing riots?
:01:01. > :01:02.We'll hear from the campaigner who wants a nutritious overhaul
:01:03. > :01:08.And we go behind-the-scenes in parliament to discover
:01:09. > :01:09.the history of Hansard, the official publication
:01:10. > :01:22.which captures every word spoken in the Commons and the Lords.
:01:23. > :01:26.And with us for the whole of the programme today, the former
:01:27. > :01:28.Conservative culture minister Ed Vaizey,
:01:29. > :01:36.But first, let's take a look at a couple
:01:37. > :01:39.of political warnings issued yesterday on the Sunday Politics.
:01:40. > :01:41.First up, Ken Livingstone, who was asked by Andrew
:01:42. > :01:49.By what time do you start to get worried if the polls haven't
:01:50. > :01:53.Oh, I mean, I think they will turn around...
:01:54. > :01:56.But generally when do you start to get worried if they haven't?
:01:57. > :01:59.If in a year's time it was still as bad as this,
:02:00. > :02:03.I don't think it will be because Jeremy and his team
:02:04. > :02:06.are going to focus on the economy and that's what wins every election.
:02:07. > :02:08.Remember, Bill Clinton - "It's the economy, stupid."
:02:09. > :02:15.Ken Clarke also appeared on the Sunday Politics yesterday.
:02:16. > :02:17.Here he is being asked about Theresa May's future,
:02:18. > :02:22.should she decide to pursue what he calls a "hard Brexit".
:02:23. > :02:25.You seem to be quoted in the Mail on Sunday this morning as saying
:02:26. > :02:28.that if the Prime Minister's sides too much with the hard Brexit
:02:29. > :02:36.It is because I think only a minority of the House of Commons
:02:37. > :02:39.think it's all frightfully simple and you can just leave.
:02:40. > :02:42.She will be in a minority if she started adopting the views
:02:43. > :02:44.of John Redwood or Iain Duncan Smith.
:02:45. > :02:48.It's quite clear that a majority of the House of Commons does not
:02:49. > :02:51.agree with that and actually it would be pretty catastrophic
:02:52. > :02:58.We turn up and face 27 other nation states and the biggest free
:02:59. > :03:01.market in the world, and tell them we are
:03:02. > :03:13.Ed Vaizey, is Ken Clarke ride, Theresa May could be brought down if
:03:14. > :03:17.she sides with Eurosceptic head-bangers in her party? No, it's
:03:18. > :03:21.not right, first of all, I don't think she will be brought down.
:03:22. > :03:26.She's in an unassailable position, very popular with MPs and incredibly
:03:27. > :03:33.popular in the country, not just with voters. My question is, if she
:03:34. > :03:36.sides with Eurosceptic MPs. If she goes for a hard Brexit? I don't
:03:37. > :03:43.think she will but I can dodge the question this way. I don't think she
:03:44. > :03:45.will go from hard Brexit. That's my next question. You don't think she
:03:46. > :03:51.will take the UK out of the single market? You are asking me, almost
:03:52. > :03:58.inviting me to dodge the question. It quite clear, coming out of a
:03:59. > :04:01.customs union is not a hard Brexit for the you can't leave the EU
:04:02. > :04:04.without leaving those two elements because you need to control
:04:05. > :04:10.immigration and have your own free trade treaties. What do you think is
:04:11. > :04:14.a hard Brexit then? These terms are unhelpful for supper hard Brexit
:04:15. > :04:17.would be by and large an ideological exit from the European Union which
:04:18. > :04:20.didn't take into account of the important factors such as the one
:04:21. > :04:25.they going to discuss later about the right of EU nationals living in
:04:26. > :04:32.the UK, so I would like to see... If you want me to move closer perhaps
:04:33. > :04:36.to Ken's position, I would urge the Prime Minister to change some of the
:04:37. > :04:39.rhetoric falls I'd like to see her reaching out to the remain as
:04:40. > :04:43.because there's nothing wrong having voted remain, believing the backdrop
:04:44. > :04:49.in the European Union and raising your concerns about what the future
:04:50. > :04:55.holds. On that issue of tone and reaching out, let's talk about
:04:56. > :05:02.trouser gate. In a sartorial failure to reach out across the divide from
:05:03. > :05:07.the Education Secretary, for her ?995 pair of brown leather trousers,
:05:08. > :05:11.bitter chocolate they were described as in one of the papers. Nicky
:05:12. > :05:16.Morgan was then banned from the meeting due to attend at number ten.
:05:17. > :05:21.Do you think that was the right response? I was surprised to see
:05:22. > :05:25.that appear in the newspapers. I don't know if they were crumbs from
:05:26. > :05:28.the Russian intelligence service at the moment which is hacking... These
:05:29. > :05:36.were texts Chief of staff. Fiona Hill, I don't
:05:37. > :05:42.want to get into the row between them. Was it appropriate for those
:05:43. > :05:48.texts to be sent so Nicky Morgan was banned? People send text messages to
:05:49. > :05:52.each other all the time. People in number ten, senior figures
:05:53. > :05:55.particularly, do it with an element of authority and adapted them to
:05:56. > :06:01.make a judgment on whether people should not be included in meetings.
:06:02. > :06:05.It's a very unfortunate dispute. I wish it had not happened. I admire
:06:06. > :06:12.Nicky Morgan for standing up for what she believes in but, in this
:06:13. > :06:15.case, it's a dangerous way to go. Fiona Hill speaks for the Prime
:06:16. > :06:19.Minister when she issued a text saying don't bring Nicky Morgan to
:06:20. > :06:22.number ten again, is that the right thing? I don't know whether the
:06:23. > :06:27.Prime Minister was going to be at the meeting. She has a lot of huge
:06:28. > :06:33.things to deal with. Do you think she has actioned it? I don't know, I
:06:34. > :06:36.doubt it very much. Fiona Hill, chief of staff, she's entitled to
:06:37. > :06:40.make a position clear about who should be at an internal meeting in
:06:41. > :06:44.number ten and unfortunately it's gone into this position where we are
:06:45. > :06:46.playing effectively with personal politics and moving away from the
:06:47. > :06:49.issues which are incredibly important and need to be discussed
:06:50. > :06:57.for the let's talk to Jess Phillips about Jeremy Corbyn. Not trousers.
:06:58. > :07:04.We've had enough of trousers and handbags. The party has sunk to 25%
:07:05. > :07:10.of the support in a survey three days ago. Its worst showing since
:07:11. > :07:14.1983. It lost the Richmond by-election. Ken Livingstone said
:07:15. > :07:18.yesterday, if it's as bad as this in a year's time we would be worried.
:07:19. > :07:23.Are you worried now? Do you agree with him? I agree with the
:07:24. > :07:27.substantive point that if we are in this position in a year's time,
:07:28. > :07:33.yeah, it's going to have to look at what we're going to do about that.
:07:34. > :07:40.I'm worried already. We need a good run in the election. It's not that
:07:41. > :07:43.far-away. I think that the Labour Party needs a good shake after the
:07:44. > :07:48.two by-elections. We shouldn't read too much into by-elections which are
:07:49. > :07:51.won or lost by the favourite party in the area because they are the
:07:52. > :07:58.usual things, but, yeah, we need to be worrying. What would you do? The
:07:59. > :08:01.Labour Party needs to have a much clearer position on certain things
:08:02. > :08:07.and we need to act together. That's the truthful top is Brexit, having a
:08:08. > :08:11.clear position on that because on the doorstep anecdotally the message
:08:12. > :08:15.seemed to be that people didn't know what Labour position actually was
:08:16. > :08:22.regarding Brexit? Both of those by-elections, it became a further
:08:23. > :08:27.referendum on Brexit with a 1-1 draw in both cases. In those particular
:08:28. > :08:32.elections, I think in a general election, post-Article 50, hard
:08:33. > :08:35.Brexit, whatever happens, the Brexit message won't necessarily be the
:08:36. > :08:40.only thing you have to be clear on but the Labour Party is in a
:08:41. > :08:44.difficult position where we have MPs in very heavily remain areas and
:08:45. > :08:50.very heavy lead areas. Would you give it a year or do you think
:08:51. > :08:54.something needs to be done sooner? I think you need to give it here
:08:55. > :08:56.because I'm sick of the Labour Party talking about itself I'm interested
:08:57. > :09:00.in talking to people behind the doors. Diane Abbott said the poll
:09:01. > :09:08.gap with the Tories would be closed by next year. Do you believe that,
:09:09. > :09:11.17 points? If you have asked me where we would be in world politics
:09:12. > :09:16.18 months ago, I wouldn't about a clue. It difficult for me to say
:09:17. > :09:21.what will happen in a year's time. At the moment, we seem on a similar
:09:22. > :09:26.trajectory for quite some time and we need a kick up the bum to sort it
:09:27. > :09:27.out. All right. On point, we will move on the.
:09:28. > :09:31.Now it's time for our daily quiz, which is all about the fraught issue
:09:32. > :09:40.I'm sure my two guests of all body sent to their hundreds. -- already
:09:41. > :09:42.sent their hundreds. And the question for today is,
:09:43. > :09:45.which of these cards is not At the end of the show,
:09:46. > :09:56.we'll see if Ed and Jess can give Now, over the coming days
:09:57. > :10:00.on the Daily Politics we're going to be taking a look
:10:01. > :10:02.at the issues faced by key government departments
:10:03. > :10:04.in the run-up to Brexit. For today's Brexit Tracker,
:10:05. > :10:06.we're looking at the challenges faced by Home Secretary Amber Rudd,
:10:07. > :10:09.whose brief covers the contentious issues of immigration
:10:10. > :10:10.and border control. So what exactly is in
:10:11. > :10:14.her Brexit in-tray? Politicians and their civil servants
:10:15. > :10:17.in the Home Office have plenty to wrestle with as we move
:10:18. > :10:20.into a post-Brexit world - and not just the potentially
:10:21. > :10:24.implementing new restrictions on EU immigration, though that will be
:10:25. > :10:28.taking up plenty of their time. They have to weigh up
:10:29. > :10:31.whether to try to remain part of the European Arrest Warrant
:10:32. > :10:34.scheme, which returns Theresa May supported it
:10:35. > :10:39.when Home Secretary but civil servants will now be exploring
:10:40. > :10:42.whether bilateral deals can be as effective or, indeed,
:10:43. > :10:47.whether it's necessary at all. A decision on Europol
:10:48. > :10:51.is coming even quicker, with Britain needing to decide
:10:52. > :10:54.in the coming months if it wants to sign up to new rules expanding
:10:55. > :10:57.the European law enforcement agency's powers to fight terrorism
:10:58. > :11:01.or opt out and potentially lose access to databases
:11:02. > :11:06.of European criminals. The department will also be
:11:07. > :11:08.grappling with what to do about the Northern Ireland border,
:11:09. > :11:11.whether the UK can continue in the common travel area,
:11:12. > :11:15.which allows free movement between the mainland and Ireland,
:11:16. > :11:19.or whether a hard border will be required to prevent EU nationals
:11:20. > :11:22.gaining unregistered The EU will introduce tighter data
:11:23. > :11:30.protection measures in 2018, despite the UK arguing
:11:31. > :11:34.against it during negotiations. The Home Office takes responsibility
:11:35. > :11:37.for data protection. Will it need to seek equivalence
:11:38. > :11:41.with EU standards to continue access to the digital single market,
:11:42. > :11:45.or will it now take the opportunity to seek a looser set
:11:46. > :11:50.of regulations outside? One area where work is progressing
:11:51. > :11:55.apace is on changing our passports. A campaign to remove the words
:11:56. > :11:58."European Union" and return to the blue colour of old received
:11:59. > :12:01.a filip after minister Robert Goodwill announced
:12:02. > :12:04.the Government was now considering potential changes
:12:05. > :12:09.to the UK passport in September. These are just some of the issues
:12:10. > :12:12.Home Secretary Amber Rudd and her team have on their plates
:12:13. > :12:16.as the Government moves ever closer to triggering Article 50 and firing
:12:17. > :12:19.the starting gun on our exit And to discuss all of that we've
:12:20. > :12:29.been joined by the Labour MP Gisela Stuart, who led
:12:30. > :12:32.the Vote Leave referendum campaign. She's now working with
:12:33. > :12:34.the cross-party thinktank British Future, which today
:12:35. > :12:36.delivered a letter to Downing Street demanding the Government guarantee
:12:37. > :12:50.the right to remain in the UK to EU Welcome to Daily Politics. You said
:12:51. > :12:54.you want the government to grant 1.8 million EU citizens right to remain
:12:55. > :12:58.in the UK before Article 50 was triggered and you want the
:12:59. > :13:02.government do that with no guarantee that European member states will
:13:03. > :13:05.reciprocate and protect the rights of UK nationals living elsewhere in
:13:06. > :13:12.the EU. Is that a smart negotiating strategy? 2.8 million EU citizens
:13:13. > :13:17.live in the UK and 1.8 of those already have acquired the rights
:13:18. > :13:20.necessary to have permanently to remain but we are suggesting that
:13:21. > :13:26.for the remaining ones, including those who have a customs made permit
:13:27. > :13:32.to leave to remain which is fast tracked, capped in terms of cost of
:13:33. > :13:37.first passport and a date for qualifying for that is when you
:13:38. > :13:41.trigger Article 50. Is it smart negotiating? On negotiations, your
:13:42. > :13:48.facts, the facts are the legal rights which EU citizens got which a
:13:49. > :13:52.lot of UK citizens have already got in France and Spain have to be
:13:53. > :13:56.respected. You also set the tone of the negotiations and I think it's
:13:57. > :14:01.important from my point of view that Theresa May goes in there and says
:14:02. > :14:06.we're outward looking, welcoming country, and we make the first move
:14:07. > :14:09.and expect from you to make the same thing. You expect some sort of
:14:10. > :14:13.reciprocal arrangement and response but is it a risk worth taking
:14:14. > :14:20.because it is a risk, isn't it, that they don't reciprocate like the
:14:21. > :14:23.like? Given, from what I understand, the intervention Angela Merkel, a
:14:24. > :14:26.lot of EU member states have already started to argue for that, but they
:14:27. > :14:31.are hoping that this council meeting at the weekend and reach an
:14:32. > :14:34.agreement, so it's a bit like the British future report which brought
:14:35. > :14:39.together levers and remain as from all but the parties and the trade
:14:40. > :14:42.unions and insert it directors. I think we can actually make that
:14:43. > :14:46.consensus but someone has to start and when it comes to people I think
:14:47. > :14:50.it should be as. You obviously see it as a bridge in that sense to
:14:51. > :14:54.perhaps set the tone for opening negotiations but why don't we just
:14:55. > :14:57.wait until Article 50 is triggered? It's not long now until formal
:14:58. > :15:02.negotiations start and perhaps the tone should be more businesslike?
:15:03. > :15:07.In the run-up to the triggering, I want the Home Office to streamline
:15:08. > :15:23.some of its mechanisms, actually be ready for that. Do you agree? I
:15:24. > :15:29.would rather we went to this position. I represent a constituency
:15:30. > :15:32.that has a lot of scientific research. I can't emphasise enough
:15:33. > :15:38.the amount of insecurity that has been engendered by the Leave vote.
:15:39. > :15:41.Having said that, I understand the Prime Minister but opposition, which
:15:42. > :15:46.is to say, you can't make a concession without a concession from
:15:47. > :15:49.the other side and I think if we followed diesel's policy, tempted
:15:50. > :15:52.though I am, we've already seen the increase that has happened in the
:15:53. > :15:59.last few months. -- Gisela Stuart's policy. You are effectively saying,
:16:00. > :16:04.if you come over now, you can get permission to stay in the UK. I
:16:05. > :16:07.think an eye for an eye made the whole world blind and somebody needs
:16:08. > :16:14.to step up to the plate. We're not talking about numbers, we are
:16:15. > :16:17.talking about the boys and my son's class and his mum and dad and what
:16:18. > :16:21.it means to them. We cannot use people as bargaining chips and from
:16:22. > :16:24.what I've heard, when the Polish by Melissa came here and from what I've
:16:25. > :16:27.heard of other European leaders, where lots of their people live
:16:28. > :16:34.here, they are desperate to hear this from the UK. -- Polish Prime
:16:35. > :16:38.Minister. The longer we treat people as a bargaining chip, the more shame
:16:39. > :16:44.is brought our country. Let's move on to the Home Office in trade. The
:16:45. > :16:46.European arrest warrant featured strongly in the campaign. Police
:16:47. > :16:50.chiefs say it speed up extraditions but it does mean foreign countries
:16:51. > :16:55.can extradite British citizens. Is that difficult to square with taking
:16:56. > :17:00.back control? We need to negotiate a strong extradition protocol, as we
:17:01. > :17:03.have with the United States and Canada. Is about strong? People have
:17:04. > :17:09.criticised the one that's been done with the United States. The European
:17:10. > :17:12.arrest warrant had its problems because it allowed for people being
:17:13. > :17:15.extradited from the United Kingdom for crimes which were not crimes in
:17:16. > :17:21.the UK. That wasn't very happy state. How many people are we
:17:22. > :17:25.talking about? I think one is too much. The principle of the entire
:17:26. > :17:29.Home Office in trade... They have to have some principles on which they
:17:30. > :17:32.approach this and I think the first principle has to be, just because it
:17:33. > :17:39.has the word Europe and it does not mean it is bound to the ECJ and the
:17:40. > :17:42.jurisdiction of that court and that is how you peel things. That's what
:17:43. > :17:46.needs to be looked at because we're not going to be under the
:17:47. > :17:49.jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice so anything that flows
:17:50. > :17:53.from that, we won't be part of. In 2014 Theresa May said that if we
:17:54. > :17:57.opted out of the arrest warrant, British criminals will be able to
:17:58. > :18:00.hop on the Eurostar or fly to Spain sake of the knowledge we wouldn't be
:18:01. > :18:03.able to get them back or prosecute them. So isn't it dangerous to play
:18:04. > :18:07.politics with the sort of things? That depends on what you put in its
:18:08. > :18:11.place, just as you wouldn't say that any criminal can hop on an aeroplane
:18:12. > :18:13.and go to United States and we can't extradite them... You come to
:18:14. > :18:17.different agreements which are perfectly possible and the
:18:18. > :18:22.independent commission said it is perfectly possible to do that.
:18:23. > :18:25.Things change but that does not mean that they get worse. They may not
:18:26. > :18:30.get worse but I think it is about the loss, perhaps, of information of
:18:31. > :18:34.intelligence is what the critics would say, people like Ed Vaizey. If
:18:35. > :18:39.you look Europol, last month the UK opted to remain a member on a
:18:40. > :18:42.temporary basis at least until we leave. The Government was warned it
:18:43. > :18:47.could lose vital intelligence unless it did so. So should we remain a
:18:48. > :18:50.member once we be the EU? Europol is under a duty to reach an agreement
:18:51. > :18:56.with the whole number of countries which are not currently part of the
:18:57. > :19:01.EU and when it comes to intelligence sharing, we are a massive net
:19:02. > :19:03.contributor to that intelligence in the European intelligence sphere.
:19:04. > :19:07.They would really damage themselves to cut us out because we are giving
:19:08. > :19:10.more to them than we get back. But I thought that was the whole point of
:19:11. > :19:14.Leave, you wanted to leave these things and take back control. You
:19:15. > :19:19.didn't necessarily want to be part of these agencies, I take your point
:19:20. > :19:23.about the name, and now you are saying you do. These agencies aren't
:19:24. > :19:26.based on the European Union. They are European wide and you take back
:19:27. > :19:32.control by taking back your laws and making the decision... Europol is
:19:33. > :19:37.the EU's law enforcement agency. You can opt in and a lot of other people
:19:38. > :19:40.opt in. But the vote to leave was to leave and it was to leave, in your
:19:41. > :19:44.mind, the single market and things like the customs union and in other
:19:45. > :19:47.people's mines, it would be to leave all the agencies that are associated
:19:48. > :19:53.and represent the EU, otherwise why did we believe? You are associating
:19:54. > :19:58.the decision to leave with drawing up the drawbridge and saying we will
:19:59. > :20:03.no longer take part in any of these. These are the things where we choose
:20:04. > :20:07.and there is no automaticity and no universal jurisdiction for the court
:20:08. > :20:11.of justice. That is what Leave and. Does that mean the same to you or
:20:12. > :20:15.does it mean we are going to opt back into many of the things we were
:20:16. > :20:18.a member of when we were in the EU? I assume we will opt back in. That's
:20:19. > :20:23.not necessarily a criticism of the Brexit position because underlying
:20:24. > :20:26.the Brexit position is what Gisela is saying, which is that it is a
:20:27. > :20:32.choice for the UK but choice goes both ways and we have to rely on our
:20:33. > :20:36.European partners. Certainly, I remember Theresa May, when she was
:20:37. > :20:39.Home Secretary during this campaign, putting security front and centre as
:20:40. > :20:42.part of our membership of the EU so I would want to see things like the
:20:43. > :20:47.European arrest warrant, which makes it much easier for us to get
:20:48. > :20:50.criminals back to the UK for trial and, obviously, Europol, where
:20:51. > :20:54.clearly the intelligence sharing is absolutely vital, being very much on
:20:55. > :20:58.the table with us looking for reasons to stay. But it is
:20:59. > :21:03.accountable to the European Parliament, as well as national
:21:04. > :21:07.parliaments, Europol, so if we maintain those close ties, won't we
:21:08. > :21:11.be subject to European laws? That would be the nature of how you opted
:21:12. > :21:18.to those negotiations and a lot of the intelligence sharing, whether it
:21:19. > :21:25.is defence cooperation, have almost been bilateral. They have not been
:21:26. > :21:28.on a European wide basis. Let's talk about... Gisela Stuart
:21:29. > :21:32.mentioned that we have, to some extent, the upper hand when it comes
:21:33. > :21:39.to intelligence, partly because the main intelligence relationships with
:21:40. > :21:42.countries outside the EU. So, actually, if we maintain those
:21:43. > :21:46.relationships, the EU will still want to have that sort of contact
:21:47. > :21:53.with us. Are we in a more advantageous position? Time will
:21:54. > :21:57.tell, whether we are in a more advantageous position. I don't think
:21:58. > :22:01.that Theresa May especially, as our Prime Minister, who has been groomed
:22:02. > :22:07.by her experience at the Home Office, is going to agree to
:22:08. > :22:11.anything that would put the UK in a more risky position, is the truth. I
:22:12. > :22:15.think she's terrible on other things. On safety, I think that's
:22:16. > :22:21.pretty much bread and butter. I think it would be incredibly
:22:22. > :22:25.shocking if other European countries came and said, "Sorry, we don't care
:22:26. > :22:29.about you being as safe, those bilateral agreements that we all had
:22:30. > :22:32.before, sorry, we're going to, because you are leaving Europe, you
:22:33. > :22:38.can't have the information that might save people in your country".
:22:39. > :22:41.I think that's unlikely. Let's talk about one other issue, slightly
:22:42. > :22:47.different, but still in the Home Office in trade, which is the colour
:22:48. > :22:51.of the passports. It wasn't a joke! Do you think they should go back to
:22:52. > :22:53.the old colour? I have a real problem because my first passport
:22:54. > :22:57.was green and after that it became whatever it is now. The Government
:22:58. > :23:02.can decide whatever colour it wishes. I think what really bothers
:23:03. > :23:06.people is to make sure that whatever passport they have now is valid
:23:07. > :23:11.until it expires and they don't incur any extra costs. Is this a
:23:12. > :23:14.burning issue for you? The minister said the Government is considering
:23:15. > :23:18.potential changes. Why do people keep saying it was blue? In my
:23:19. > :23:21.memory, it was black. I never have about possible because I was too
:23:22. > :23:25.young and I was on my parents' passport and when I had one was
:23:26. > :23:29.either a Brown card to go on a school trip or a red passport.
:23:30. > :23:34.Nobody has ever raised it with me on the doorstep. The day someone says,
:23:35. > :23:39."This red passport has made me feel like I just don't belong here any
:23:40. > :23:43.more," is the day that I will campaign for a new colour passport.
:23:44. > :23:46.Until that day comes, I shall not give a toss what colour our
:23:47. > :23:51.passports are. That's very parliamentary speaker on the Daily
:23:52. > :23:57.Politics! What about you? Do you give a monkey's about the colour? I
:23:58. > :24:00.quite like the passport at the moment. What should please the
:24:01. > :24:04.Brexiteers is that clearly what will happen is that the words European
:24:05. > :24:08.Union, which have been on the front of our passport, will disappear and
:24:09. > :24:11.that should be enough for them. Maybe they'll send out special
:24:12. > :24:16.maroon stickers because I've just renewed my passport and it is valid
:24:17. > :24:19.for ten years and I will need a little sticker to blank out the
:24:20. > :24:24.European Union. I'm not paying for another one! You could have a
:24:25. > :24:28.special sticker made for you! Gisela Stuart, you don't need a passport to
:24:29. > :24:33.come onto the programme. Yet! That might be down to you, of course!
:24:34. > :24:34.Let's take a look at what the next few days have in store in the
:24:35. > :24:37.political week ahead. Chancellor Philip Hammond
:24:38. > :24:38.will be giving evidence to the Treasury Select Committee
:24:39. > :24:41.this afternoon, with reports that ministers are considering allowing
:24:42. > :24:43.councils to increase council tax The Prime Minister will also
:24:44. > :24:50.announce today that the UK will become one of the first
:24:51. > :24:53.countries to adopt an internationally recognised
:24:54. > :24:55.definition of anti-Semitism in order Half a million rail
:24:56. > :25:01.passengers face disruption on Tuesday, on the first of three
:25:02. > :25:04.days of strike action The dispute is over the role
:25:05. > :25:09.of conductors on trains. Also on Tuesday, Labour's
:25:10. > :25:13.Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer, will be giving
:25:14. > :25:16.a speech on his party's priorities His opposite number
:25:17. > :25:23.David Davis will also be speaking on Wednesday,
:25:24. > :25:26.as he makes his first appearance On Thursday, Defence Secretary
:25:27. > :25:32.Michael Fallon will host a summit with the US
:25:33. > :25:35.Defence Secretary Ash Carter and representatives from 15 other
:25:36. > :25:37.countries focused on countering And in Holyrood,
:25:38. > :25:41.the Scottish Government will also present their draft
:25:42. > :25:47.Budget for 2017-18. are the Guardian's Holly Watt,
:25:48. > :26:00.and Jason Groves of the Daily Mail. Welcome to both of you. Holly, on
:26:01. > :26:04.social care, it's been in the news quite a lot recently, the chief
:26:05. > :26:08.executive of Care England has described the system is a house of
:26:09. > :26:11.cards that could topple at any moment. Widen the Chancellor cover
:26:12. > :26:15.it in his Autumn Statement, in your view? I think social care is one of
:26:16. > :26:19.those issues that affect absolutely everyone. Everyone knows people who
:26:20. > :26:23.are going into care homes, will have to go into care homes, have family
:26:24. > :26:26.members in care homes. This is one of those things that need to be
:26:27. > :26:30.handled on a cross-party basis but there's been quite a long period of
:26:31. > :26:34.people scoring political points backwards and forwards. Before the
:26:35. > :26:38.2010 election, Andrew Lansley, Norman Lamb and Andy Burnham try to
:26:39. > :26:43.sit down and think of how to resolve care homes on the problems within
:26:44. > :26:49.but that got shipwrecked with a Conservative Party election brochure
:26:50. > :26:53.and since then, there has been a long, ongoing attempt to resolve it,
:26:54. > :26:57.culminating in the Autumn Statement and it not being mentioned. How much
:26:58. > :27:01.pressure is the Government under to deal with this now? I think they're
:27:02. > :27:04.under a lot of pressure and you can see why because an answer to your
:27:05. > :27:07.question about why it didn't appear in the Autumn Statement, I think the
:27:08. > :27:11.reason is that some people in Number Ten thought, we are not going to put
:27:12. > :27:13.up council tax, we are just not going to do it. I think the fact
:27:14. > :27:18.that they are now contemplating it shows you the kind of pressure
:27:19. > :27:21.they're under, not just from the health sector, where there is a
:27:22. > :27:26.serious backlog building up in the NHS, also from local authorities,
:27:27. > :27:29.but from Tory MPs. Tory MPs are lobbying the Chancellor and Mrs May
:27:30. > :27:32.about this because they are seeing what is happening in their own
:27:33. > :27:36.communities and I think that's why, reluctantly, they are going to
:27:37. > :27:39.sanction some kind of, probably temporary, increasing council tax to
:27:40. > :27:43.keep the system on its feet while they look at longer-term reforms. It
:27:44. > :27:48.may be that we hear something later this week. Apparently. If we return
:27:49. > :27:52.to the issue of Brexit, Holly, according to the House of Lords EU
:27:53. > :27:56.committee, it is Brexit week. It feels like it's been Brexit week
:27:57. > :27:59.ever since June 23 but we are going to be hearing from David Davis at
:28:00. > :28:07.the Brexit select committee on Thursday. Will we hear anything new?
:28:08. > :28:10.Hopefully! Lots of people are asking... Kier Starmer Astra
:28:11. > :28:13.detailed analysis of how Brexiters going to happen last week and a lot
:28:14. > :28:16.of people are hoping David Davis is going to say more. Clearly, the
:28:17. > :28:21.Prime Minister has said that they can't put too much out there because
:28:22. > :28:27.that would damage their ability to negotiate with the EU but they are
:28:28. > :28:30.hoping that we will hear more. There are a series of reports coming out
:28:31. > :28:34.of the House of Lords this week, and that is six big parliamentary
:28:35. > :28:37.reports so it is clear there is so much detail that needs to be
:28:38. > :28:44.resolved. The arguments go on, Jason, about a hard and soft Brexit
:28:45. > :28:47.and Labour's position has been unclear, according to some of the
:28:48. > :28:50.Labour Party itself. The shadow Brexit secretary Kier Starmer is
:28:51. > :28:55.going to be making a speech tomorrow on Labour's priorities for the
:28:56. > :28:59.negotiations. Do you think they've got a clear enough position? Could
:29:00. > :29:03.you tell us? I don't think anyone could tell you. Hopefully, Kier
:29:04. > :29:07.Starmer will clear things up a bit tomorrow. The problem is, every time
:29:08. > :29:10.he does, somebody else, usually John McDonell, pops up and says something
:29:11. > :29:14.contrary. Kier Starmer will say it is a disaster to leave the single
:29:15. > :29:18.market and Brexiters all been handled very badly and then the
:29:19. > :29:22.Shadow Chancellor will say, actually, it's a fantastic
:29:23. > :29:26.opportunity. Jeremy Corbyn will talk about the bits of the EU that aren't
:29:27. > :29:29.popular, such as free movement and immigration, and will not really be
:29:30. > :29:33.too fussed about the single market. I hope we do get some clarity from
:29:34. > :29:37.Labour because it is hurting them. Attested in Richmond and is probably
:29:38. > :29:46.hurt them in Sleaford, whether just Rowden in fourth place. -- it hurt
:29:47. > :29:50.them in Richmond. I don't want to go back to the trouser story per se but
:29:51. > :29:55.if we read into the reaction from Fiona Hill, Theresa May's chief of
:29:56. > :29:58.staff, in terms of the texts she sent on the public spat that has
:29:59. > :30:00.emerged, what do you think it actually says about Theresa May's
:30:01. > :30:08.Number Ten operation? Lots of people have raised questions
:30:09. > :30:11.about the management of the Prime Minister's office and these abrupt
:30:12. > :30:17.text messages which emerged this weekend. It makes it clear they got
:30:18. > :30:22.a brusque way of managing. We saw that last week with Boris Johnson
:30:23. > :30:27.and the issues over his comments on Yemen. They have a very harsh way of
:30:28. > :30:33.managing things at times not causing people to be quite angry. All right,
:30:34. > :30:38.thank you both very much. Let's return to social care. Ed Vaizey,
:30:39. > :30:44.it's lost almost a tenth of its budget since 2010, more than 5000
:30:45. > :30:48.care beds had been lost in the past 18 months. More people are growing
:30:49. > :30:51.old that the care they need and by 2020 more than a million other
:30:52. > :30:55.people will be over the age of 75. Is the system on the verge of
:30:56. > :30:59.collapse? I would not go that far but it clearly needs to be
:31:00. > :31:08.addressed. My County Council, when we had 2% added to the preset,
:31:09. > :31:13.founded welcome and I know social care has enabled us to live longer,
:31:14. > :31:19.good thing. We are introducing a national living wage, good thing,
:31:20. > :31:25.but putting pressure on costs. It is doubling. Local budgets have reduced
:31:26. > :31:32.significantly. Who's fault is that? The last Labour government. Of
:31:33. > :31:35.course, yeah! I'm inclined to comment on what the situation is at
:31:36. > :31:38.the moment and if you are saying, yes, it's partly to do with a
:31:39. > :31:42.reduction of local authority budgets, clearly the fact were
:31:43. > :31:44.having a debate about allowing councils to increase it is a
:31:45. > :31:49.recognition that council budgets are... But it clearly not enough
:31:50. > :31:55.also why wasn't something done about it in the Autumn Statement? I'm not
:31:56. > :31:58.a member of the government. Should he have addressed it? Something
:31:59. > :32:03.needs to be addressed, clearly, so let's see what comes up in terms of
:32:04. > :32:08.giving councils of flexibility they need. Labour also feel it a bit much
:32:09. > :32:12.to dump it on council tax. It's ridiculous to do that especially if
:32:13. > :32:15.you come from a large authority like Birmingham. Where would you get the
:32:16. > :32:19.money from them? The government should increase the grounds they
:32:20. > :32:24.give to them. Cancels like mine, are different to the ones Ed get his
:32:25. > :32:30.resources from full that they can't raise the same amount of money from
:32:31. > :32:34.council tax. It relies heavily on government grants already full
:32:35. > :32:39.support and show will get a week for care homes for the elderly people
:32:40. > :32:44.whereas in Birmingham it is 400. That is completely unsustainable.
:32:45. > :32:47.There is a need for the government to recognise that, when we invest in
:32:48. > :32:51.infrastructure, all the money they gave away in the Autumn Statement,
:32:52. > :32:54.sometimes infrastructure is people and there is a massive
:32:55. > :32:58.infrastructure which needs to be built up in social care. Would you
:32:59. > :33:05.be prepared to put up general taxation? Yes, I think we have got
:33:06. > :33:10.to look at this and people every week, as an MP, you get letters
:33:11. > :33:15.saying, I don't want to sell my house to look after my mum, I don't
:33:16. > :33:18.want to sell her house. People got to recognise this is going to cost.
:33:19. > :33:26.People need to pay for it however the government invested billions in
:33:27. > :33:29.infrastructure in shovel ready projects in the Autumn Statement
:33:30. > :33:33.also why on earth that may invest in the infrastructure like child care,
:33:34. > :33:38.social care? Just to make it clear, you would be prepared to back a call
:33:39. > :33:46.for increasing income tax, central taxation, to fund social care? Yes.
:33:47. > :33:50.That's clear. The government has allowed the precept to increase and
:33:51. > :33:55.pulled budgets were cancelled and health authorities can pull their
:33:56. > :33:59.budgets. I want to take issue with Jeff depicting my County Council as
:34:00. > :34:03.sitting on a pile of cash. But there are richer and poorer cancels. We
:34:04. > :34:09.get less money for education and Birmingham. You accept the point
:34:10. > :34:11.Jess makes that if you laid to the council tax, in more deprived
:34:12. > :34:16.communities, they struggle to make the same amount of money as a richer
:34:17. > :34:21.cancels. I'm not saying you're sitting on a pilot cash but which of
:34:22. > :34:27.them Jess's. I would not accept that. Would you like me to send you
:34:28. > :34:31.the figures? You have different pressures in Birmingham than we have
:34:32. > :34:37.in Oxfordshire. The largest numbers of burnable children. Let her talk.
:34:38. > :34:42.Have you got figures to show that his council is better off than
:34:43. > :34:46.yours? I did a report on every single Council and the country
:34:47. > :34:55.asking what their pay rates were for nursing home care, social care, and
:34:56. > :34:59.the disparity between... In Tory councils, twice as much money in
:35:00. > :35:03.Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Walsall, Solihull, which is next door
:35:04. > :35:09.bordering my constituency gets about ?100 more. My old people deserve
:35:10. > :35:13.just as much as your old people. At the moment, the way the government
:35:14. > :35:18.is creating, it's going to create a worst postcode lottery. It's based
:35:19. > :35:24.on formulas which have been around for a very long time. Let's change
:35:25. > :35:28.it. Rural councils face higher costs in terms of transport and education
:35:29. > :35:33.are lobbying for more money. They compare itself to Birmingham and
:35:34. > :35:38.they will show figures where they are losing out to authorities like
:35:39. > :35:41.Birmingham so you can blame... We are talking about social careful
:35:42. > :35:45.stop there is a fundamental agreement more money needs to be
:35:46. > :35:55.going through. Should go through the precept? If you are paying far
:35:56. > :35:59.higher percentage of income in cancer fact that if you are wealthy.
:36:00. > :36:04.The just about managing class, the group of people Theresa May really
:36:05. > :36:08.wants... A lot of people can't afford to pay their council tax
:36:09. > :36:11.because this government has raised the threshold significantly for
:36:12. > :36:16.people in terms of income tax so people on... So why don't you make
:36:17. > :36:21.it income tax rather than council tax? It would be more progressive.
:36:22. > :36:26.There was a cap suggested on the amount an individual should have to
:36:27. > :36:31.spend on their social care. And to do a lot to the big report a few
:36:32. > :36:38.years ago and it was shelved. -- Andrew Dill not. The Treasury came
:36:39. > :36:42.back with ?72,000 in the end. It has not happened for them it was due to
:36:43. > :36:47.happen around now. Should there be a cab and what should it be? People
:36:48. > :36:52.don't want to be in a position where they are going into care having to
:36:53. > :36:57.effectively sell their house. People quite rightly regard that as an
:36:58. > :37:04.asset they've built up. I certainly think the government should consider
:37:05. > :37:09.a cap. 35,000? 75,000? It's something which needs to have a
:37:10. > :37:14.discussion. I'm not going to sell this programme what I'm going to fly
:37:15. > :37:18.off the top of my head. Ten years ago, we've opposed a system of
:37:19. > :37:24.social insurers where people could take out insurance to cover their
:37:25. > :37:27.care costs and that is another element. Do you think there will be
:37:28. > :37:34.agreement, a decision, an announcement? As a backbencher, I
:37:35. > :37:39.get my news from the newspapers, not from any special briefing. But
:37:40. > :37:47.clearly, there is a move not to solve this problem, because it needs
:37:48. > :37:50.a much wider debate. Entrenched the problem. Funding is definitely on
:37:51. > :37:52.the agenda. It's the official edited transcript
:37:53. > :38:02.of what goes on in Parliament. It's published daily and details
:38:03. > :38:04.the momentous occasions and the quieter moments
:38:05. > :38:06.in the Commons, so you don't The goings-on in Parliament
:38:07. > :38:12.are watched closely. Comments and counterclaims
:38:13. > :38:14.pored over, especially Of course, there are times
:38:15. > :38:17.when there are fewer But even in those quiet times,
:38:18. > :38:25.there are two sets of eyes and ears taking down,
:38:26. > :38:27.witnessing everything They sit here above
:38:28. > :38:31.the Speaker's chair. They are the reporters of Hansard,
:38:32. > :38:34.and they've been here for centuries, with different staff over
:38:35. > :38:36.the years, of course. Two reporters at any given
:38:37. > :38:42.time are in these seats. It's difficult to get in and out of,
:38:43. > :38:47.but you have the best And you're craning your neck
:38:48. > :38:51.searching the benches for anything that people would say that you need
:38:52. > :38:56.to put into the record. A purely verbatim report wouldn't be
:38:57. > :39:03.a useful thing as a written record, so we translate the spoken
:39:04. > :39:06.to the written, so that the record The reporters watch back video
:39:07. > :39:14.of the debate they made notes on and then type it up,
:39:15. > :39:18.editing as they go. The deadlines are very tight
:39:19. > :39:21.so if I'm doing a five-minute turn, which is a chunk of debate
:39:22. > :39:25.that we report, I have 45 minutes to get that done
:39:26. > :39:28.and onto the sub-editor's desk. I'll then have a few minutes
:39:29. > :39:31.before I have to go back Hansard has been the official record
:39:32. > :39:37.of Parliament since 1909. But for hundreds of years before
:39:38. > :39:40.that, there were competing journals So it's interesting standing
:39:41. > :39:46.here seeing this huge row of books. If we look at the years they cover,
:39:47. > :39:50.we can see here they start And we have to walk quite a long way
:39:51. > :39:55.before we then get to the Battle of Waterloo and even further before
:39:56. > :40:00.we get to the First World War and it's only by this point
:40:01. > :40:03.when I've walked really quite a long way that we get to the 1940s
:40:04. > :40:08.in the Second World War. way that we get to the 1940s
:40:09. > :40:11.and the Second World War. These days, most of our customers
:40:12. > :40:14.access Hansard in digital form. In those days, the print
:40:15. > :40:16.run was quite big. When I joined Hansard 20 years ago,
:40:17. > :40:19.there were still many thousands And also, all these lovely bound
:40:20. > :40:24.volumes were sent out to all the libraries in the country
:40:25. > :40:29.as a way of distributing them. These days we produce several
:40:30. > :40:33.hundred daily copies which members still like to use in the chamber
:40:34. > :40:35.and very, very few of A lot of work in recent years has
:40:36. > :40:41.been aimed at making our digital House of Commons business
:40:42. > :40:46.is available to read on the Hansard And you can search for your
:40:47. > :40:52.own MP, for example. And that's quicker, of course,
:40:53. > :41:10.than sitting through hours I'm only asking you this because I
:41:11. > :41:14.went to Mac and first last time forth if anything you've said that
:41:15. > :41:17.you've regretted or had changed? I've had the same thing changed on
:41:18. > :41:21.two different occasions for the because I'm from Birmingham and when
:41:22. > :41:24.I say the word number, if I talk about my mum, being a mum in the
:41:25. > :41:36.House of Commons, they always write it M U M and we spell it mum. It a
:41:37. > :41:42.noisy when they sanitise my regional accent so I check because it was
:41:43. > :41:49.maiden speech. I said, I would never say mum, I say mum. I got them to
:41:50. > :41:57.change it. You can have things changed. You can reprint it?
:41:58. > :42:01.Potentially. She's a troublemaker with Hansard. What about you?
:42:02. > :42:06.Anything you've helped Hansard didn't record? The joke is always
:42:07. > :42:08.that you can make any kind of announcement you like in the House
:42:09. > :42:14.of Commons if you wanted kept secret. Is that true? Anything I
:42:15. > :42:21.found this programme I will be trolled from Italy end of the day on
:42:22. > :42:28.Twitter about how awful I been. If I made a debate in Parliament, where I
:42:29. > :42:34.messed up, and was useless, no one would say anything. Has that
:42:35. > :42:37.happened a lot? Whenever I speak in there, it ends up in the paper. I'm
:42:38. > :42:40.incredibly dull in Parliament, that's true.
:42:41. > :42:47.LAUGHTER I didn't want to save. Hansard is
:42:48. > :42:48.recording this. Everybody else on Twitter is, so you can rest assured
:42:49. > :42:51.it will be there. Is the standard of food served up
:42:52. > :42:53.in prisons contributing to problems That's the view of Lucy Vincent,
:42:54. > :42:57.a writer and campaigner who says meals in prisons are often
:42:58. > :42:59.substandard and need When I first started researching
:43:00. > :43:10.food in UK prisons I didn't And, although it's a far cry
:43:11. > :43:17.from Dickensian porridge, it turns out prison food is more
:43:18. > :43:21.similar to school dinners before Jamie Oliver brought
:43:22. > :43:27.about change 11 years ago. Think excess carbohydrates
:43:28. > :43:29.and a severe lack of What I wasn't prepared to discover
:43:30. > :43:38.was the significant impact low quality food is having
:43:39. > :43:40.on the inmates of our At a time of national chaos
:43:41. > :43:45.in the UK prison system, we are feeding some of society's
:43:46. > :43:49.most vulnerable and mentally unstable individuals food that's
:43:50. > :43:52.having a much more severe impact on their well-being
:43:53. > :44:01.than we might realise. A recent report by HM Inspectorate
:44:02. > :44:04.of Prisons has revealed significant failings in prison food
:44:05. > :44:06.across the board and record Only 29% of prisoner survey
:44:07. > :44:14.respondents described the food Food being served below temperature,
:44:15. > :44:25.lack of communal dining due to staff shortages and low nutritional
:44:26. > :44:31.quality all crop up continuously. Last year, an inmate at HMP
:44:32. > :44:36.Northumberland staged a protest on a high railing after receiving
:44:37. > :44:48.a cold meal. A decade ago, the country saw
:44:49. > :44:51.the effect better nutrition, less additives and more fresh food
:44:52. > :44:56.had on schoolchildren. Pupils got on better,
:44:57. > :44:59.behaved well and, as a result, Why can't we do the same
:45:00. > :45:11.in our country's prisons? The report also noted a lack
:45:12. > :45:14.of opportunities for prisoners to cook for themselves or to learn
:45:15. > :45:23.catering skills in prison kitchens. These activities could aid
:45:24. > :45:26.rehabilitation and improve their Decent nutrition has the power
:45:27. > :45:40.to positively impact everything from self-esteem to health,
:45:41. > :45:47.learning and development. When you are dealing
:45:48. > :45:49.with individuals who are likely to have struggled with these issues
:45:50. > :45:52.more than most, I believe this becomes a matter
:45:53. > :46:00.of much greater importance. Lucy Vincent is here,
:46:01. > :46:02.and we've also been joined by the Conservative
:46:03. > :46:15.MP Stewart Jackson. Lucy, some people would say we spent
:46:16. > :46:19.enough on prisoners. Each prisoner Place costs around ?3000 a year. Do
:46:20. > :46:23.we need to spend more? At this stage, what I'm asking for is not
:46:24. > :46:27.more money, necessarily. You can eat and cook well with not much money
:46:28. > :46:32.and at the moment, prison spending per head per day is around ?2 and I
:46:33. > :46:36.do think that you can eat well with that kind of money. I think what
:46:37. > :46:40.Jamie Oliver did in schools, he had around 37p, I know it was ten years
:46:41. > :46:46.ago, per head per day, and he proved that. It was difficult but he did
:46:47. > :46:50.it. What do you say, Stewart Jackson? I'm slightly sympathetic
:46:51. > :46:54.but I do think there are bigger priorities in prison. One of them is
:46:55. > :46:58.violence, the other is the proliferation of drugs, mental
:46:59. > :47:02.health problems, family breakdown and literacy and numeracy and
:47:03. > :47:07.general education. These are all important issues which I would
:47:08. > :47:09.suggest or a higher priority than issues around nutrition. Lee
:47:10. > :47:13.Stevenson says that if you take the examples of schools and the food
:47:14. > :47:20.that kids were eating, fewer additives meant better behaviour. --
:47:21. > :47:24.Lucy Vincent says. Let's get into perspective that this hasn't been a
:47:25. > :47:27.major issue by international comparisons, the quality of
:47:28. > :47:31.nutrition, the quality of food served in our prisons. Either
:47:32. > :47:37.visited some of the toughest prisons in the world. I was in San Miguel
:47:38. > :47:43.prison in Santiago in Chile when 81 people were killed in a riot. It was
:47:44. > :47:47.Dickensian. By comparison, the UK has a very good prison standard. You
:47:48. > :47:52.have chosen the extreme, one might say! If we keep to the idea of
:47:53. > :47:55.trying to improve, if that's what Lucy is suggesting, the quality of
:47:56. > :48:02.food will improve the experience for prisoners in jail... The thing is,
:48:03. > :48:06.Lucy, would it have that much of an impact? Would you get your inmates
:48:07. > :48:11.eating that nice plate of fruit and vegetables? A major say, I don't
:48:12. > :48:14.like it. From the prisoners and ex-prisoners I've spoken to, one of
:48:15. > :48:20.the main things they crave inside things like salads, and one woman I
:48:21. > :48:23.spoke to, when she came out of prison, she went straight to
:48:24. > :48:26.Morrisons, bought a salad and chicken breast and dated on the
:48:27. > :48:30.train that because she hadn't had it for three years. Do you consider
:48:31. > :48:34.having good food and decent food privilege or a necessity? Obviously,
:48:35. > :48:37.it's a necessity but we have to strike the balance between what
:48:38. > :48:42.people expect in a prison, which is not cordon bladder, high-end
:48:43. > :48:48.cuisine, basically, because taxpayers are paying for
:48:49. > :48:52.incarcerating people. To get a custodial sentence these days, you
:48:53. > :48:56.have to have committed quite a serious crime. What do you say to
:48:57. > :49:02.that? I'm not pitching three course Michelin star meals. I'm talking
:49:03. > :49:05.about fresh, healthy, simple, cheap food that they'll enjoy eating more
:49:06. > :49:08.than they're eating at the moment but mainly to improve their
:49:09. > :49:13.behaviour. Part of the report that I based my research on, they did a
:49:14. > :49:17.study in prisons and they gave exactly the same food for a month
:49:18. > :49:20.but they gave them some nutritional supplements, so things like vitamin
:49:21. > :49:23.see that they may not have been getting from fresh fruit, and they
:49:24. > :49:28.noticed a significant increase in better behaviour, lack of violence
:49:29. > :49:31.and prisons were calmer and I think that is really interesting and that
:49:32. > :49:36.was just nutritional supplements. They were still eating all the
:49:37. > :49:39.carbs. I agree with that and I think that's a great project. What we need
:49:40. > :49:43.to do is have more social investment bonds like in Doncaster and
:49:44. > :49:48.Peterborough, where you tackle recidivism and you actually give a
:49:49. > :49:51.fiscal incentive to keep people from coming back into prison. Nutrition
:49:52. > :49:55.can be part of that project, funded by the third sector and government.
:49:56. > :50:00.Labour did it and we did it and we need to roll that out a bit more but
:50:01. > :50:05.what I am saying is that probably the priority, when resources are
:50:06. > :50:10.very tight, our drugs and violence within prisons. But this isn't about
:50:11. > :50:12.costing any more money. That's Lucy's point. It doesn't cost any
:50:13. > :50:16.more to present the sort of food that people might want to eat, the
:50:17. > :50:20.sort of food that might calm people down, that might lead to a reduction
:50:21. > :50:26.in violence or drug smuggling or the desire to commit more crime within
:50:27. > :50:29.prison. We've got to trust prison governors as well. I think Stuart is
:50:30. > :50:32.being remarkably emollient on this show. I suspect he had crushed
:50:33. > :50:40.avocado on wholemeal bread for breakfast! Tofu! Are you not giving
:50:41. > :50:47.us a true reflection of your views, Stewart Jackson? I do support Lucy's
:50:48. > :50:51.point. I boarded a wider context it clearly, when you debate anything
:50:52. > :50:55.like this, you have a binary debate, soft on crime and prisoners, to the
:50:56. > :50:59.redemption debate. When Michael Gove was just a secretary, he had the
:51:00. > :51:03.support of the papers because he had the credibility of being a
:51:04. > :51:06.centre-right politician, saying, we got to get out of this mentality of
:51:07. > :51:09.just locking people up and throwing away the key because they are going
:51:10. > :51:15.to come back into society. That's your mentality, isn't it? The more
:51:16. > :51:18.skills they have an game when they are in prison, the more likely they
:51:19. > :51:22.will be integrated into society and the less it will cost us on the
:51:23. > :51:25.better it will be for them. I agree with all that. I do think, though,
:51:26. > :51:31.that we've got to trust prison governors and not throw the key
:51:32. > :51:35.away. I do believe, though, that you've actually got to understand
:51:36. > :51:39.that people believe that people are in prison, taxpayers, for a reason.
:51:40. > :51:44.And that's the point. You go to prison, you've committed a crime, in
:51:45. > :51:47.many cases are very serious crime, you lose personal freedoms and
:51:48. > :51:50.choice and that means you don't get great food either. One person I
:51:51. > :51:54.respect to who had served a short sentence summed it up really well.
:51:55. > :51:57.She said, you go to prison to get your freedom taken away from you.
:51:58. > :52:01.You do not go to prison to be starved or have your health
:52:02. > :52:05.compromise. Is that happening? From the research I've come across, there
:52:06. > :52:08.has been a significant decrease in food quality in prisons over the
:52:09. > :52:12.years and it is having a much bigger impact than we realise. We do not
:52:13. > :52:20.want to see people starved or feeling they are being starved order
:52:21. > :52:23.prized? Let's move onto anecdote -- from anecdote... I don't think Her
:52:24. > :52:27.Majesty is in prisons has found that degree of nutritional problems in
:52:28. > :52:32.prison. You've got to see it in a wider context of teaching people to
:52:33. > :52:37.read and write, giving them self worth, letting them work and earn
:52:38. > :52:42.money. Just briefly, Jess Phillips, one of the issues Stewart Jackson
:52:43. > :52:46.wrote about was the smuggling of drugs, drones being used of fruit
:52:47. > :52:53.and veg going to stop that? Of course not on their own, but I've
:52:54. > :52:57.worked in prisons for many years, I ran a female offenderss' service and
:52:58. > :53:00.contrary to what has been said, lots of people are in there completely
:53:01. > :53:06.nonserious things, such as their children not going to school and
:53:07. > :53:09.women on short sentences. They're all sorts of health and locations
:53:10. > :53:12.for those people that definitely need to be considered, about whether
:53:13. > :53:17.prisoners the right place for those sentences to go ahead but also,
:53:18. > :53:22.these people need to be looked after within the same degree that we would
:53:23. > :53:23.also expect them to be punished. Thank you both very much. It's
:53:24. > :53:25.nearly lunchtime! Now, what to put on top
:53:26. > :53:28.of your Christmas tree is not normally a decision
:53:29. > :53:29.that involves politics. But if you think an angel or a Star
:53:30. > :53:33.of David is a bit passe, and you're also a fan
:53:34. > :53:36.of Jeremy Corbyn, then you might A crochet satirist -
:53:37. > :53:39.that's crochet, by the way, not knitting - has made
:53:40. > :53:42.an alternative Christmas tree topper in the form
:53:43. > :53:44.of the Labour leader. It's said to be the perfect ornament
:53:45. > :53:50.for the "festive atheist socialist". But it's been selling
:53:51. > :53:53.so well that the artist - who, as you might have guessed,
:53:54. > :53:56.is a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn - says she won't now be
:53:57. > :53:58.able to process any more Here's the US
:53:59. > :54:06.President-elect Donald Trump. But he's a "voodoo pincushion",
:54:07. > :54:11.which is a bit less festive. There's also the former leader
:54:12. > :54:22.of Ukip, Nigel Farage. This one is, of course,
:54:23. > :54:24.David Cameron. And the former Education
:54:25. > :54:30.Secretary Michael Gove. The former Work and Pensions
:54:31. > :54:35.Secretary Iain Duncan Smith. Now, the artist, Kat Stiff,
:54:36. > :54:37.actually met Jeremy Corbyn And she managed to give him
:54:38. > :54:41.a crochet doll of himself - it looks like he was happy
:54:42. > :54:48.to receive it. She's here with us now. What gave
:54:49. > :54:53.you the idea? Which idea? Of crocheting politicians, even the
:54:54. > :54:56.ones you like. I woke up one morning and put on the radio and Michael
:54:57. > :55:01.Gove had said something about the last straw was when he was trying to
:55:02. > :55:06.reduce the summer holidays, and the level of frustration I felt was not
:55:07. > :55:11.very healthy and I thought, how can I deal with this? I was crocheting
:55:12. > :55:16.dolls of Poirot on various things so I thought I would crochet a pin
:55:17. > :55:22.Gove's face and then I posted on social media and a lot of people...
:55:23. > :55:26.It got a good response. We have noticed that you have crocheted nice
:55:27. > :55:30.dolls of left-wing politicians, those who support, and pin cushions
:55:31. > :55:35.of the right wing once. If someone wanted an order the other way round,
:55:36. > :55:38.would you do it? Ultimately, someone could buy the Jeremy Corbyn and they
:55:39. > :55:44.could stick pins in it if they want to. That is very true. Does it take
:55:45. > :55:53.you a long time to make each one? About three or four hours. They're
:55:54. > :56:00.beautiful! What's along the front? We've got Nigel Farage but he is not
:56:01. > :56:07.a pincushion. I'd have him as my pincushion! Can you tell us who the
:56:08. > :56:20.others are? Michael Gove and David Cameron. You want Michael Gove?
:56:21. > :56:24.Remember when Peter Mandelson... Hello, Michael. Are you enjoying the
:56:25. > :56:27.backbenchers? I thought your programme with Fern Britton
:56:28. > :56:33.yesterday was very good. Have you rehearsed this? About Ron Jeremy
:56:34. > :56:42.Corbyn, which is your favourite? Er... Jeremy Corbyn is the only nice
:56:43. > :56:49.one I make! Do you make any women? Not yet but I'm going to do Theresa
:56:50. > :56:53.May after Christmas. Valid point! Jess Phillips, one of the most
:56:54. > :56:55.prominent Labour backbenchers who could possibly find. What is the
:56:56. > :57:00.difference between crochet and knitting? Crochet is one hook and is
:57:01. > :57:04.a series of knots, whereas knitting is two needles and I don't know how
:57:05. > :57:10.to knit at all. They are completely different. When did you start
:57:11. > :57:17.crocheting? About four years ago. It's amazing! Would that be at the
:57:18. > :57:23.top of your Christmas tree? I would love to buy this but you probably
:57:24. > :57:33.don't sell to Tories. Michael Gove ordered one! I didn't know what to
:57:34. > :57:35.do. They ordered it on your website? What was the editor? They gave me
:57:36. > :57:44.their address, which I thought was bowled! Don't give that out on the
:57:45. > :57:47.show! It was in the Metro or something and I got an order from
:57:48. > :57:52.Michael Gove. I thought, is this real? And it was! But you are busy
:57:53. > :57:59.now until the New Year, so you would have to get your orders in now for
:58:00. > :58:05.next year. There is one there but it is not for you. Is that a display
:58:06. > :58:08.copy? Thank you for bringing them in. Listen, you!
:58:09. > :58:12.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:13. > :58:15.which of these cards is not from a political leader?
:58:16. > :58:26.What is the correct answer? I know the ones on my left. The Dove and
:58:27. > :58:32.Downing Street are Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. I'm going for the
:58:33. > :58:35.squirrel. That is actually from Danny Alexander, the Liberal
:58:36. > :58:39.Democrat former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and it was a Christmas
:58:40. > :58:42.card because it was a rude, but was made by Harriet Harman. We will have
:58:43. > :58:45.a quick look at Christmas cards. They will go across the screen at
:58:46. > :58:51.the end. These are some of the cards that Theresa May has received and is
:58:52. > :58:54.going to send out. They were done by schoolchildren for her especially.
:58:55. > :59:03.She picked three different designs and the dove of peace was Jeremy
:59:04. > :59:06.Corbyn's card. That's it. Thank you very much. That was the Lib Dems.
:59:07. > :59:09.Tim Farron!