:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:41.There are warnings of atrocities, as Aleppo -
:00:42. > :00:45.where 50,000 people are thought to be trapped - falls
:00:46. > :00:52.Has Britain and the west turned its back the people of Syria?
:00:53. > :00:54.Train drivers on Britain's biggest rail franchise go on strike,
:00:55. > :00:59.preventing hundreds of thousands of people getting to work.
:01:00. > :01:01.But who is to blame - the rail company,
:01:02. > :01:04.The Chancellor suggests that transitional arrangements
:01:05. > :01:08.may need to be in place after we leave the EU.
:01:09. > :01:11.So in the short term, could life after Brexit be pretty
:01:12. > :01:22.You either love them or hate them but should the Boxing Day sales be
:01:23. > :01:31.banned so shop workers can spend more time with their families?
:01:32. > :01:34.All that in the next hour and I have Labour royalty with me today -
:01:35. > :01:38.Dame Margaret Beckett, no less - former interim leader,
:01:39. > :01:41.former deputy leader, former Foreign Secretary,
:01:42. > :01:48.She's had more jobs in the Labour Party than there are trains running
:01:49. > :01:55.Let's start though with the grim news from Aleppo, where Assad's
:01:56. > :01:58.forces are on the verge of taking the city after more than four
:01:59. > :02:08.Thousands of people are thought to be trapped in the remaining
:02:09. > :02:10.rebel-held parts of the city amidst warnings of atrocities.
:02:11. > :02:13.MPs have secured an emergency debate on the issue this afternoon
:02:14. > :02:15.with calls for the UK to use its diplomatic
:02:16. > :02:23.muscle to secure safe passage for civilians.
:02:24. > :02:30.But has the UK still got any diplomatic muscle when it comes to
:02:31. > :02:34.stopping the carnage in Syria? Very difficult question to answer, but
:02:35. > :02:39.there isn't any doubt that we should be doing, and I hope the Government
:02:40. > :02:44.is doing, everything we can, whether it is reassessing... I mean a
:02:45. > :02:49.feature of the debate will be that it's not all that long ago that our
:02:50. > :02:55.previous Foreign Secretary said that things like airdrops should only be
:02:56. > :02:59.considered as a last resort, but as a number of NGOs said recently, if
:03:00. > :03:08.this isn't the last resort and there's been no delivery of food
:03:09. > :03:16.since November, then what is a last resort? So you would back your
:03:17. > :03:20.labour colleague who backed airdrops? I understand why the
:03:21. > :03:28.Government is saying how difficult it would be, but if ever there is a
:03:29. > :03:33.time to stretch, to encourage, to fight for a political solution, and
:03:34. > :03:39.to look at the age situation, it must be now. People say there is no
:03:40. > :03:44.chance of a political solution, even if Aleppo hasn't already fallen into
:03:45. > :03:48.government forces it will happen shortly, government forces and those
:03:49. > :03:52.who support them say it will mark a turning point in this dreadful war
:03:53. > :03:57.which will allow Bashar al-Assad to take back control of the country. If
:03:58. > :04:03.that's the case, do you think it should happen sooner rather than
:04:04. > :04:09.later? Well, I suppose there is an argument for that because certainly
:04:10. > :04:13.the degree of suffering is intense. I think anybody would hesitate to
:04:14. > :04:20.say it would be a good thing for Bashar al-Assad to be more in
:04:21. > :04:24.control because of what is happening as people are leaving Aleppo. So
:04:25. > :04:27.many men are disappearing and nobody knows where they are going but
:04:28. > :04:33.nobody thinks they are going to a nice holiday camp somewhere. So it
:04:34. > :04:36.is a terrible thing to have to consider that Bashar al-Assad might
:04:37. > :04:39.take control and the consequences no doubt will be dire but equally
:04:40. > :04:46.prolonging the present situation doesn't seem to be helping anybody.
:04:47. > :04:51.You are reflecting perhaps on some of the fury from Labour MPs on your
:04:52. > :04:58.side of the party, on the front page of the Communist newspaper, the
:04:59. > :05:07.Morning Star. Particularly the headline on the left, final
:05:08. > :05:11.liberation of Aleppo is in sight. Welcoming dictators liberating
:05:12. > :05:16.Aleppo, absolute disgrace. This from Angela Smith, how can anyone claim
:05:17. > :05:22.what is happening in Aleppo is liberation? Ian Austin, after months
:05:23. > :05:32.of bombardment people in Aleppo face bombardment. Do you agree with them?
:05:33. > :05:39.Yes, it's like a sick joke. Another Labour MP goes further, he says
:05:40. > :05:44.Seamus Mill is behind the headline, he says these are your people,
:05:45. > :05:49.Seamus, did you ask for the sickening front-page calling Russian
:05:50. > :06:01.slaughter liberation. Do you agree with John Woodcock? I have no idea
:06:02. > :06:06.who Seamus Milne's good friends are. I'm afraid I think it would be wise
:06:07. > :06:11.for Jeremy to distance himself from that kind of headline because it is
:06:12. > :06:16.almost like a sick joke. It is something you couldn't make up in a
:06:17. > :06:21.satire magazine. Yes, because as you said, people who are trapped in the
:06:22. > :06:26.city, there are already eyewitness accounts of atrocities as government
:06:27. > :06:27.forces going to Aleppo and no doubt that will continue. No doubt likely
:06:28. > :06:30.to be more. Now, up to 500,000 rail passengers
:06:31. > :06:33.in the south of England are facing travel chaos as a strike by train
:06:34. > :06:35.drivers paralyses Almost all trains have been
:06:36. > :06:41.cancelled after members of the Aslef union walked out for 48
:06:42. > :06:43.hours at midnight. Another 24-hour strike
:06:44. > :06:45.is planned for Friday. Passengers have suffered
:06:46. > :06:46.months of disruption, with the unions and the train
:06:47. > :06:49.company that operates Southern services failing to reach a deal
:06:50. > :06:52.on how services will be staffed. But while up until now it has been
:06:53. > :06:56.conductors who have walked out, Drivers are striking as part
:06:57. > :07:02.of the same long-running dispute over who operates the train doors
:07:03. > :07:10.on Southern services. Southern's parent company wants
:07:11. > :07:14.to bring in driver-only-operated trains where the driver,
:07:15. > :07:16.rather than the conductor, opens and closes the doors
:07:17. > :07:20.when a train pulls into a station. Unions say the on-board conductor
:07:21. > :07:23.has a much better view of the doors But Southern says CCTV installed
:07:24. > :07:31.in the cab means the driver can see the length of the train,
:07:32. > :07:34.and this is already standard Govia Thameslink, which runs
:07:35. > :07:40.the Southern franchise, A fifth of all passenger journeys
:07:41. > :07:49.are made on GTR trains. Passengers on GTR's Great Northern
:07:50. > :07:52.and Thameslink trains have also experienced disruption in recent
:07:53. > :07:55.months with the company blaming cancellations on a sharp increase
:07:56. > :07:57.in train crew sickness and a refusal Govia Thameslink are paid a fee
:07:58. > :08:06.for running the super-franchise, with the Department
:08:07. > :08:09.for Transport keeping fares. This is a different arrangement
:08:10. > :08:12.to the way the rest of the rail network is run and means the cost
:08:13. > :08:15.of all the strikes and disruption is picked up by the Government
:08:16. > :08:21.and taxpayers, not the train firm. This morning, Transport Secretary
:08:22. > :08:24.Chris Grayling said he had no power to stop the strike but would examine
:08:25. > :08:28.possible changes in legislation "very carefully", adding
:08:29. > :08:34.he was "ruling nothing in or out." And we can talk now to our news
:08:35. > :08:50.correspondent, Leanne Brown, What's happening? Usually this
:08:51. > :08:54.station would be ram-packed full of passengers, around 300,000 commuters
:08:55. > :09:02.use Southern Rail services every day, but not today. As you can see,
:09:03. > :09:07.there are rows of taxis here that would usually be being used, but
:09:08. > :09:11.pretty quiet here this morning. I've been into the station this morning,
:09:12. > :09:16.there are people milling around using the shopping centre but the
:09:17. > :09:21.departure boards are blank. There is one service that it is running, the
:09:22. > :09:25.Gatwick Express. There's quite a few people I have seen with luggage,
:09:26. > :09:31.they seem to be using that OK, however it is a limited service and
:09:32. > :09:35.one of the people we spoke to this morning got all the way to the
:09:36. > :09:40.airport, missed his flight and had to come back. It seems most people
:09:41. > :09:44.have planned ahead and they were aware of the strikes so they have
:09:45. > :09:49.gone to social media to vent their anger instead. Many people saying
:09:50. > :09:56.they have had to take the day off or try to work from home. One chap said
:09:57. > :10:02.he had faced an 11 hour commute overnight to try to get to work. And
:10:03. > :10:07.of course this isn't just affecting those commuters, it's also affecting
:10:08. > :10:11.the larger economy as well. It is expected it will get even quieter as
:10:12. > :10:15.the day goes on. At rush hour there certainly won't be a rush on here.
:10:16. > :10:19.Now, a really quiet. Thank you. I'm joined now by the Conservative
:10:20. > :10:22.MP Nick Herbert, whose constituency is served by Southern trains,
:10:23. > :10:31.and Mick Whelan, General Secretary Mick Whelan, cancer treatment
:10:32. > :10:35.appointments missed, jobs at risk, jobs lost, children unable to travel
:10:36. > :10:39.to school, do you consider these acceptable consequences of the
:10:40. > :10:43.union's industrial action? Now I have a great deal of empathy and
:10:44. > :10:49.sympathy with the people impacted. We don't want to be here. This isn't
:10:50. > :10:54.about money, it is purely about safety. What do you say to Mick
:10:55. > :10:59.Whelan, he doesn't want to be here. This is not about money and it is
:11:00. > :11:01.not their fault. Of course that is their fault because they are
:11:02. > :11:05.striking but it cannot be about safety because a third of the trains
:11:06. > :11:11.operated on the national network of these driver operated doors and the
:11:12. > :11:14.irony today is that there will be drivers driving Thameslink trains,
:11:15. > :11:20.which are run by the same company that have driver only operated doors
:11:21. > :11:24.on the same day we have striking drivers saying the trains are not
:11:25. > :11:28.safe. That cannot be right, if the trains were not safe they wouldn't
:11:29. > :11:36.be allowed to be run and they have been for 13 years. Aslef told Chris
:11:37. > :11:41.Grayling the trains could be hit with a decade of industrial action.
:11:42. > :11:45.He says you are hell-bent on fermenting this dispute. Why should
:11:46. > :11:50.Southern passengers have any faith that you want an end to the strike?
:11:51. > :11:58.We have had this policy is the best part of 15 years. Of not extending
:11:59. > :12:05.DOO. The technology that was introduced in the early 1990s was on
:12:06. > :12:12.far shorter trains and without the footfall we have now. If you haven't
:12:13. > :12:16.answered the question. We don't normally rush the barricades, we do
:12:17. > :12:20.not have an industrial history... But you are prepared to have a
:12:21. > :12:26.decade of industrial dispute about this. That is slightly out of
:12:27. > :12:37.context. When we met, I expressed my concern with driver only operated
:12:38. > :12:43.trains. Chris Grayling was intelligent about our concerns and I
:12:44. > :12:48.made a comment saying it may lead, with the digital railway elsewhere,
:12:49. > :12:52.to long-term problems. So you are digging your heels in and it could
:12:53. > :13:01.lead to years of industrial dispute. This particular issue was fermented
:13:02. > :13:06.by the DFT, it was a matter of public records. Peter Wilkinson who
:13:07. > :13:12.works at the DFT said he would cause the strikes, and they have done. You
:13:13. > :13:15.are literally setting your face against technological improvements
:13:16. > :13:20.and progress and that is why you will continue to block and go on
:13:21. > :13:24.strike. If you look at our record and a good well, we have helped
:13:25. > :13:33.introduce the technological process, everything from ATO... But you are
:13:34. > :13:40.not doing it over driver only operated trains. And has been our
:13:41. > :13:48.policy for over a decade, and we would seek to have a safer, better
:13:49. > :13:53.the operated railway. But it has been in use since the 1980s. The
:13:54. > :13:59.rail safety standards board, and I have their inspection here, says it
:14:00. > :14:04.is safe so this isn't about safety, is it? The rail safety standards
:14:05. > :14:08.board is not an independent body. They say they have independent
:14:09. > :14:13.inspectors. The members of the board are the managing directors of the
:14:14. > :14:18.companies. Are they independent or not? They were set up after the
:14:19. > :14:25.Clapham rail disaster but you don't have to take their word for it, the
:14:26. > :14:28.independent rail network director of safety has said these trains are
:14:29. > :14:33.safe and specifically the trains being introduced on Southern are
:14:34. > :14:37.safe. The fact is this strike clearly has a political agenda, it
:14:38. > :14:43.is absolutely nothing to do with pay. No pay cuts, no job losses.
:14:44. > :14:47.There will still be guards on almost all of the trains that currently
:14:48. > :14:51.have guards on at the moment, it is just that they are not operating the
:14:52. > :14:54.doors so the long-suffering passengers will look at this with
:14:55. > :15:01.dismay and asks why the whole service has been brought to a halt
:15:02. > :15:05.today and seriously disrupted by the RMT before Aslef joined this strike
:15:06. > :15:11.action for a period of months. It has gone on for an extended period
:15:12. > :15:16.of time causing misery, the point is who is to blame and how can it be
:15:17. > :15:19.sorted? You have accused him of being ideological in carrying out
:15:20. > :15:23.the strikes but isn't it true to say that when we look into the future
:15:24. > :15:28.the railways are expensive to run and the obvious way is to reduce
:15:29. > :15:32.overheads with more technology coming in. Ultimately, even if you
:15:33. > :15:36.are not cutting staff by saying driver only operated trains, you are
:15:37. > :15:38.downgrading the role of the second person on the train with a view
:15:39. > :15:47.presumably to phase it out. Well, the people who are going to be
:15:48. > :15:50.on the trains are going to be able to look after passengers. They will
:15:51. > :15:55.be safety trained. Right, will they be paid less? No. Will the jobs be
:15:56. > :15:59.less skilled? The pay is being maintained. That's why this is so
:16:00. > :16:06.ridiculous and frankly it is the passengers who are being put last
:16:07. > :16:09.here. They have been losing their jobs. They have, we have suffered a
:16:10. > :16:13.loss of contracts in my constituency. This has gone on for
:16:14. > :16:16.months because of the industrial action that's been taking place
:16:17. > :16:21.between the strike days and it cannot go on. Right, just to be
:16:22. > :16:25.clear, if new people are recruited to those jobs, the second person on
:16:26. > :16:30.the train, will they be paid less? No, my understanding is they won't
:16:31. > :16:34.be paid less. Right. But in any case, Mick represents the drivers.
:16:35. > :16:37.And these drivers are already driving these trains elsewhere in
:16:38. > :16:40.the network and that's why it is so ridiculous that they're going on
:16:41. > :16:44.strike today about the introduction of trains that these drivers already
:16:45. > :16:47.drive. Right, well let's go back to the question of whether it is
:16:48. > :16:54.ideological which is what Nick Herbert and the Government believe.
:16:55. > :16:58.There are reports of unionised workers repeatedly calling in sick
:16:59. > :17:03.or refusing to work overtime. Is unofficial sympathy action being
:17:04. > :17:06.taken? Not to my knowledge. Not to my knowledge doesn't mean it isn't
:17:07. > :17:12.happening, you would accept that? I can only attest to what I know. Is
:17:13. > :17:15.ASLEF encouraging this? No. There is widespread reporting of this going
:17:16. > :17:18.on across various lines and suburban lines in and out of London. Trains
:17:19. > :17:22.aren't running because the staff aren't there. People are working to
:17:23. > :17:24.rule and not doing the overtime, there are fewer trains at the
:17:25. > :17:30.weekend. Downed stand why people would be angry? I understand why
:17:31. > :17:35.everybody is angry. Is it happening? Not to my knowledge. ASLEF have got
:17:36. > :17:41.an official overtime ban as well as the strike days. Right, have ASLEF
:17:42. > :17:46.got an official over time ban? We have an overtime ban on Southern,
:17:47. > :17:51.but at the same time what it has highlighted, because I'm getting
:17:52. > :17:54.intrigued by the figures, 500 to 600 services it is claimed are being
:17:55. > :17:59.cancelled because of the overtime ban. Is that happening to your
:18:00. > :18:03.knowledge? That tells us not enough drivers are employed within the
:18:04. > :18:06.company itself. Do you deny reports that unionised workers on other
:18:07. > :18:11.lines are falsely reporting that trains are broken down and can't
:18:12. > :18:14.run? Yes. You do. These are denials. Claims are being made, why do you
:18:15. > :18:18.believe them? Well, we have heard these claims. The reason I believe
:18:19. > :18:22.it because I have watch this service be disrupted over a period of months
:18:23. > :18:25.and although there are issues with Network Rail and the track which
:18:26. > :18:31.needs to be improved with investment and there are issues with the
:18:32. > :18:35.operator, yes, as well, they were as nothing compared to this serious
:18:36. > :18:38.disruption that was caused the moment this union action started in
:18:39. > :18:41.April and it has not been on the strike days, it has been on the non
:18:42. > :18:46.strike days where the staff have been working to rule and they have
:18:47. > :18:51.been trying every means they can, legal, and bending the law, not
:18:52. > :18:54.turning up because of the high rates of sickness to disrupt the operation
:18:55. > :19:01.of these trains and it is the poor passengers who have been suffering.
:19:02. > :19:05.Right. Do you accept that this is, goes beyond rail strikes? This is
:19:06. > :19:14.about trying to protect and defend public services which is pretty well
:19:15. > :19:21.what Mark said earlier? I wish Mark well, he just had his heart
:19:22. > :19:25.transplant. It is openly we are not fans of the pritised railway. That
:19:26. > :19:28.doesn't drive our ideology on safety. Safety and politics are two
:19:29. > :19:31.different things. You accepted that you are going beyond, it is not just
:19:32. > :19:34.the issue of safety in your mind, this is a broader campaign to
:19:35. > :19:39.protect public services? No, this isn't a broader campaign. We
:19:40. > :19:42.campaign continually to protect public services. I have been on
:19:43. > :19:47.platforms with Margaret campaigning to protect public services. This
:19:48. > :19:51.strike action is solely in relation to the fact about the imposed
:19:52. > :19:56.extension of driver-only operated trains on Southern. Whose side are
:19:57. > :20:01.you on Margaret Beckett? Oh, I'm a mere passengerment We all in that
:20:02. > :20:07.sense. I have sympathy with what ASLEF are saying and I can take the
:20:08. > :20:10.point entirely what works on shorter trains in certain circumstances
:20:11. > :20:14.doesn't necessarily work, I mean... Do you dismiss the safety record as
:20:15. > :20:22.well from the rail standards board? I think the thing that clouds all of
:20:23. > :20:26.this, this is a company that has a track record of inadequateness. It
:20:27. > :20:29.didn't hire enough staff and run the line inefficiently for a long time
:20:30. > :20:32.and I take the point entirely that people suspect that there are people
:20:33. > :20:37.reporting in sick when they are not really and so on, overtime, but
:20:38. > :20:42.should you really be running any train operating company with so
:20:43. > :20:46.small a margin that if people don't want to do overtime the thing can't
:20:47. > :20:51.run? The company must take some responsibility for that? I have been
:20:52. > :20:55.critical of the company for failing to recruit enough drivers in the
:20:56. > :20:59.first place. You can hardly believe the union? We can. This situation
:21:00. > :21:03.has been made seriously worse as a result of the union action that
:21:04. > :21:06.started in April. It has a political agenda, the unions knew that it
:21:07. > :21:10.would be the company that would be blamed, if they took this action,
:21:11. > :21:13.and their goal is to have the franchise removed and to have the
:21:14. > :21:15.railways renationalised. It is a political strike and it is the poor
:21:16. > :21:20.passengers who are suffering as a result. Do you accept the Government
:21:21. > :21:24.is using Southern as a test case to set a precedent and therefore, break
:21:25. > :21:27.the grip of the unions? How can this be a test case when this policy of
:21:28. > :21:33.modernising trains has been going on for 30 years? By the way under
:21:34. > :21:36.Labour Governments Margaret as well. These are trains which have been
:21:37. > :21:40.running safely day in and day out. There hasn't been any evidence of
:21:41. > :21:49.accidents that's been caused by them. The regulator says that they
:21:50. > :22:01.are safe. It is just an excuse. It is the excuse wants to run to run a
:22:02. > :22:12.campaign. It is rather debunked by a publishation of letter from boj and
:22:13. > :22:16.Chris Grayling. The letter says that Chris Grayling says, "I want to keep
:22:17. > :22:25.it out of the hands of any Labour mayor." It is political on his side.
:22:26. > :22:31.This service has been diabolical for months now and yes, there are issues
:22:32. > :22:34.with Network Rail, yes there have been issues with Southern, but it is
:22:35. > :22:39.the unions that's the principle cause of the trouble now. Nick
:22:40. > :22:42.Herbert... Two quick points. We have been meeting with all the major
:22:43. > :22:47.stakeholders in the industry because the technology that all these trains
:22:48. > :22:53.rely on, we're told we can't rely on: RSSB, there was a document they
:22:54. > :22:57.produced on their website that said that a driver on shorter trains
:22:58. > :23:03.would only see a safety incident on 90% of the occasions. There is merit
:23:04. > :23:09.in what we say. This is a perfectly legal strike. Chris Gray lg the
:23:10. > :23:13.transport secretary said he will take action to stop this kind of
:23:14. > :23:16.strike carrying on, not ruling anything in or ruling anything out.
:23:17. > :23:21.Is he going to make this strike illegal in the future? I would
:23:22. > :23:24.support looking at what can be done to protect essential services from
:23:25. > :23:28.this kind of political disruption that goes on. Including banning the
:23:29. > :23:34.strikes on these essential services? We may have to look at no strike
:23:35. > :23:38.agreements or binding arbitration, something that protects the
:23:39. > :23:46.passengers. They are the ones whose interests we should be putting
:23:47. > :23:48.first. It sticks in the throats of my constituents who are fed-up with
:23:49. > :23:53.this. Gentlemen, thank you very much.
:23:54. > :23:56.Now, negotiations on Britain's exit from the EU are due to begin
:23:57. > :23:59.Two years after that, we should be out.
:24:00. > :24:03.But will be need to have transitional arrangements
:24:04. > :24:06.to smooth our exit, or should it be our clean break.
:24:07. > :24:08.Well, in the Treasury Select Committee yesterday,
:24:09. > :24:14.Chancellor Philip Hammond seemed to suggest transitional arrangements
:24:15. > :24:24.I'd just like to move on to the question of transitional
:24:25. > :24:28.Do you think they're going to be necessary?
:24:29. > :24:34.There is, I think, an emerging view among businesses, among regulators,
:24:35. > :24:36.and among thoughtful politicians, as well as, I think,
:24:37. > :24:39.probably quite a universal view among civil servants on both sides
:24:40. > :24:49.of the English Channel, that having a longer period
:24:50. > :24:54.to manage the adjustment between where we are now as full
:24:55. > :24:58.members of the European Union and where we get to in the future
:24:59. > :25:01.as a result of the negotiations that we will be conducting
:25:02. > :25:08.would be generally helpful, would tend towards a smoother
:25:09. > :25:10.transition, and would run less risks of disruption,
:25:11. > :25:18.Risks to financial stability, which must be a very real concern.
:25:19. > :25:26.That's another way of putting it, yes.
:25:27. > :25:32.We're joined now by the Conservative MP, John Redwood.
:25:33. > :25:37.Philip Hammond says thoughtful politicians, whoever they maybe, and
:25:38. > :25:40.many other people now back a transition period which, he says,
:25:41. > :25:44.would be generally helpful to have more than two years to negotiate
:25:45. > :25:48.exact pli what Brexit will look like. Do you agree with him? I
:25:49. > :25:53.thought a lot about this. No, I don't. We could be more optimistic.
:25:54. > :25:57.What business tells me they are getting used to the idea. It wasn't
:25:58. > :26:01.the vote they wanted and they want the uncertainty removed as quickly
:26:02. > :26:05.as possible. So that argues for putting all our effort into making
:26:06. > :26:12.sure we get a good deal and then everybody knows where they stand. I
:26:13. > :26:17.think if we generously offer zero for zero on tariffs, say them to
:26:18. > :26:22.them, we don't want to charge your goods service, but we have have to
:26:23. > :26:25.if you charge our goods tariffs. They would be a massive loser and
:26:26. > :26:31.therefore, we would end up with a good outcome. There is a mismatch
:26:32. > :26:37.between the way you are viewing the process in terms of similar plicity
:26:38. > :26:42.and shortness time. Even Theresa May said last month she didn't want a
:26:43. > :26:47.cliff-edge if we came out after two years without a deal. The CBI said
:26:48. > :26:51.that and we have had the report from the House of Lords, have they got it
:26:52. > :26:54.wrong saying it would be impossible to do what you outlined and a free
:26:55. > :27:01.trade with the EU would take five years? I think we can be more
:27:02. > :27:08.ambitious and I think my model will work. There are a large number of
:27:09. > :27:10.so-called professionals who want to slow this down and who want Britain
:27:11. > :27:13.to negotiate with herself and what is damaging to the British position
:27:14. > :27:19.is having lots of British voices saying this is a problem, that is a
:27:20. > :27:23.difficulty. We now need to be a united team being optimistic and
:27:24. > :27:28.friendly to our former partners in the EU, saying we love you, we want
:27:29. > :27:32.to trade you, we're going to have lots of students and talented people
:27:33. > :27:36.moving both ways across the channel, all those things will carry on and
:27:37. > :27:40.we will offer them zero tariff trade because they would have to pay twice
:27:41. > :27:44.as much tariff on their goods into Britain as we would pay on our goods
:27:45. > :27:51.into the Continent. Are you one of these people who want to slow it
:27:52. > :27:55.down? You may not be earning lots of professional fees, but would you
:27:56. > :27:59.support a slower transitional process? That might be a solution to
:28:00. > :28:02.what are real problems. One of the most damaging things that's
:28:03. > :28:05.happening at the moment is that people, not perhaps John, but people
:28:06. > :28:09.like John who campaigned for us to leave the European Union are now all
:28:10. > :28:13.going about pretending that this will be easy, straightforward and
:28:14. > :28:18.speedy, which it won't. One of the things that nobody ever says is that
:28:19. > :28:21.nobody thought through how the Article 50 process would work
:28:22. > :28:29.because nobody ever expected anyone to trigger it. It isn't just on the
:28:30. > :28:35.British side there isn't any proper preparation, there isn't any proper
:28:36. > :28:40.preparation. The notion it will be easy and straightforward and it will
:28:41. > :28:45.be over and done with in 18 months is nonsense. I have had a lot of
:28:46. > :28:48.involvement in a series of international negotiations, and it
:28:49. > :28:52.ain't like that. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't accept John's
:28:53. > :28:55.point entirely. If we can get certainty, where we can get
:28:56. > :28:59.certainty, let's get it as fast as possible, but let's not kid
:29:00. > :29:05.ourselves or pretend. What do you say to John Redwood's suggestion if
:29:06. > :29:07.we just leave and we just offer zero tariffs, people will reciprocate and
:29:08. > :29:15.there we will have our free trade deal? Unlikely is all I can say. On
:29:16. > :29:18.the basis of? On the basis of negotiating in the European Union
:29:19. > :29:25.inside and outside it. Maybe this isn't the word you would use naive
:29:26. > :29:31.about the ease which we would get a free trade deal. Experts said it
:29:32. > :29:35.would be more tricky... I have written lots of books and some of
:29:36. > :29:40.the so-called experts have been mugging it up for months and they
:29:41. > :29:43.haven't read the treaties. Peter Lilley said some transition
:29:44. > :29:48.agreement would be absolutely normal. Is he wrong too? Well, Peter
:29:49. > :29:53.Lilley this morning said that if you waste a lot of time negotiating your
:29:54. > :29:56.transitional agreement it isn't necessarily easier than negotiating
:29:57. > :29:59.the final agreement and he said let's spend our time negotiating the
:30:00. > :30:06.final agreement. Let's make it easy for them and for us. This is not
:30:07. > :30:09.their main preoccupation. They have huge issues they need to resolicitor
:30:10. > :30:14.and we wish them well with that. We don't need to negotiate most things.
:30:15. > :30:17.We send them a letter and we put through our domestic legislation
:30:18. > :30:21.because we want to take back control of our borders and our money and our
:30:22. > :30:26.laws and those are not negotiable with Mrs Merkel. The thing that is
:30:27. > :30:28.negotiable with her, two things, one assets and liabilities, residual
:30:29. > :30:31.from the European Union which fortunately don't amount to a huge
:30:32. > :30:37.amount of money and secondly, the issue of how you trade in the future
:30:38. > :30:40.and there are two models which are off-the-shelf. We can either do the
:30:41. > :30:42.generous deal that I'm suggesting, carry on as we are. Which looks
:30:43. > :30:54.unlikely at the moment? I disagree because no member state
:30:55. > :30:59.government has said they want to impose tariffs. It doesn't sound
:31:00. > :31:05.like Philip Hammond will follow your advice. We will wait and see. It
:31:06. > :31:09.will be the end of March, we trust. It is important that nobody on the
:31:10. > :31:16.continent is wanting tariffs, but the other option if they do want to
:31:17. > :31:26.damage their trade is to go over to WTO, trade successfully with the EU
:31:27. > :31:32.on those terms. Many hate the idea of falling off the cliff and onto
:31:33. > :31:37.the WTO. They want free trade deals and you cannot do free trade deals
:31:38. > :31:41.with the rest of the world of you are staying in the single market.
:31:42. > :31:46.Can you address this point, Margaret Beckett. If we did move to World
:31:47. > :31:54.Trade Organisation terms and tariffs, it is them not us that
:31:55. > :31:57.would be out of pocket. But it may not be that simple. I know everybody
:31:58. > :32:02.has been saying all the way through this... Part of what everyone should
:32:03. > :32:06.understand is that every time you turn a corner somebody comes up with
:32:07. > :32:12.something unforeseen which is a complication. Yesterday I was
:32:13. > :32:16.talking to somebody who says, actually, WTO is a membership
:32:17. > :32:22.organisation, it may not be as simple as us grandly saying we will
:32:23. > :32:26.operate by their rules. The WTO may have something to say about that.
:32:27. > :32:30.They probably will although I'm not sure they have rejected many
:32:31. > :32:34.countries in their past. They welcome us as a voting member
:32:35. > :32:38.because we will be a voice for free trade which is what they are all
:32:39. > :32:45.about. That relationship is very good. If you just do things, quite
:32:46. > :32:49.often you find out a lot of the fears are not grounded. But you
:32:50. > :32:57.don't now and the WTO could react badly if they felt we were
:32:58. > :33:03.reneging... There were far more potential problems in creating two
:33:04. > :33:07.more countries than in leaving the EU. Liam Fox published a written
:33:08. > :33:10.statement last week saying after we leave the EU we will try to
:33:11. > :33:17.replicate our current obligations with countries outside the EU, does
:33:18. > :33:22.that alarm you? Not at all. I thought it was about exciting new
:33:23. > :33:26.deals. The purpose of the legislation we need to put through
:33:27. > :33:30.the House of Commons is to transfer the current legislation into good
:33:31. > :33:42.British law. Then at our leisure we can decide which of
:33:43. > :33:45.those we want to change, for example I'm sure we want to change the
:33:46. > :33:48.fishing rules because fishing doesn't work, whereas we all agree
:33:49. > :33:50.we want to keep the employment protections so we will. It will be
:33:51. > :33:51.our choice, our legislation. Right, we look forward to the months ahead.
:33:52. > :33:53.Thank you. Now to the second part of our series
:33:54. > :33:56.looking at the issues faced by key Government departments
:33:57. > :33:58.in the run-up to Brexit. For today's Brexit Tracker,
:33:59. > :34:00.we've turned our attention to the Department for Environment,
:34:01. > :34:02.Food and Rural Affairs, The current Environment Secretary,
:34:03. > :34:05.Andrea Leadsom, campaigned for Britain to leave the EU,
:34:06. > :34:08.but now faces questions about how leaving will impact farming
:34:09. > :34:10.subsidies and air quality. Behind the doors of Defra,
:34:11. > :34:12.the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs,
:34:13. > :34:14.one issue post-Brexit dominates - what to do about the common
:34:15. > :34:17.agricultural policy. Equivalent funding has been
:34:18. > :34:18.guaranteed until 2020, but politicians and their civil
:34:19. > :34:21.servants need to decide what should They will be working
:34:22. > :34:30.with the Home Office to decide how to best employ seasonal agricultural
:34:31. > :34:32.from overseas, with ministers saying they are looking carefully at how
:34:33. > :34:35.to ensure Britain's farms continue to get the necessary supply of
:34:36. > :34:43.labour when crops need harvesting. As the UK looks to form new trade
:34:44. > :34:46.deals across the world, others are eyeing up our market
:34:47. > :34:51.for their agricultural produce. New Zealand, for example,
:34:52. > :34:54.has said it wants a deal but wants access for its lamb and dairy
:34:55. > :34:56.produce, currently protected Will Defra look to protect British
:34:57. > :35:06.farmers from increased competition? Or work to ensure they can sell
:35:07. > :35:11.their own produce in new markets? One area of reform could
:35:12. > :35:15.be pesticide control. Farming Minister George Eustice has
:35:16. > :35:18.said the EU's precautionary principle needs to be reformed
:35:19. > :35:23.to allow faster authorisation. One potential clash could come over
:35:24. > :35:29.bee-harming neonicotinoids. The UK opposed EU
:35:30. > :35:32.restrictions three years ago. Another change under consideration
:35:33. > :35:34.are new rules to regulate Only one GM product has
:35:35. > :35:42.been licensed since 1998 A whole series of EU laws govern
:35:43. > :35:48.the welfare of farm animals, including production,
:35:49. > :35:49.transportation and slaughter. Brexit will give an opportunity
:35:50. > :35:55.to go further on aspects of welfare blocked by the EU,
:35:56. > :36:01.such as ending live exports. Will the UK go its own way
:36:02. > :36:04.on air quality limits Therese Coffey said the UK
:36:05. > :36:08.was seeking better air quality post-Brexit,
:36:09. > :36:10.so will the Government use this These are just some of the issues
:36:11. > :36:18.Defra Secretary Andrea Leadsom and their team have on their plates
:36:19. > :36:21.as the Government moves ever closer to triggering Article 50 and firing
:36:22. > :36:24.the starting gun on our exit She was on the Remain
:36:25. > :36:34.side of the argument, and joining us is another former
:36:35. > :36:36.Environment Secretary, Owen Paterson, who was
:36:37. > :36:49.a Leave campaigner. The Government has pledged to
:36:50. > :36:53.maintain farm subsidies until 2020, should it continue beyond that? Yes,
:36:54. > :36:58.I was clear through the referendum campaign that the 2.9 billion we
:36:59. > :37:03.spend could be targeted at our own industry and our own environment to
:37:04. > :37:07.deliver much more effect. I also said where appropriate we will have
:37:08. > :37:13.the freedom to go further so I see huge opportunities in designing a
:37:14. > :37:18.farming and environmental policy tailored to our own environment. So
:37:19. > :37:25.you would like to see those industries subsidies even further?
:37:26. > :37:30.They currently make up 60% of farm income and you would like to
:37:31. > :37:34.subsidise it more. I see that money as a reward for farmers for the
:37:35. > :37:40.public good they provide in environmental benefits upon which
:37:41. > :37:46.sits a 30 billion tourist industry, but once it's all sorts of public
:37:47. > :37:51.benefits. Margaret Beckett, do you agree with that assessment by Owen
:37:52. > :37:56.Paterson that the subsidies for the public good that farming doors, even
:37:57. > :38:02.if the industries themselves are not profitable. I certainly agree you
:38:03. > :38:08.need public support for the benefit farming brings. I'm not sure we
:38:09. > :38:11.should agree -- we would agree about where the money should go but I
:38:12. > :38:16.accept there is a need for public support. If I was Defra I would be
:38:17. > :38:27.worried about this pledged to keep funding going until 2020. From a
:38:28. > :38:33.government that cut taxes all over the place. But why should people
:38:34. > :38:39.working in other sectors and other industries paid taxes to subsidise
:38:40. > :38:44.farms which don't make money? We have got to get our food from
:38:45. > :38:49.somewhere. Sure, we could get it from abroad. And successive
:38:50. > :38:54.governments have accepted that but the more we can grow ourselves the
:38:55. > :38:57.better. There is also a question about our landscape, environment,
:38:58. > :39:01.protection of the environment and so on which is tied in with that work.
:39:02. > :39:06.Some of the reasons you get flooding is because of the way farming
:39:07. > :39:10.impacts the land. Is Margaret Beckett right to be sceptical that
:39:11. > :39:16.the Government will keep to its commitment of those subsidies until
:39:17. > :39:22.2020. No, I was clear, I spoke to... But what about the current
:39:23. > :39:26.government? And we are the rural party, and it is in our interest to
:39:27. > :39:31.have a prosperous, thriving country. I think her government was a
:39:32. > :39:36.mistake, believing there was limitless, cheap, safe food beyond
:39:37. > :39:41.our shores. There is lots of cheap food but there's also a role for us
:39:42. > :39:47.to have a thriving industry. The EU has an insane hostility to
:39:48. > :39:58.technology, it is becoming the Museum of world farming. Last week I
:39:59. > :40:04.was in a company in Germany that has stopped GM development. We will come
:40:05. > :40:09.onto that in a moment. Won't cheap imports like lamb from New Zealand
:40:10. > :40:14.perhaps, harm our agricultural sector? In the end it will undercut,
:40:15. > :40:19.do farmers want that sort of free trade deal? There will be sectors
:40:20. > :40:24.that will not be competitive but there can be government help because
:40:25. > :40:33.there are issues you touched on, animal welfare, environmental
:40:34. > :40:39.benefits in the hills, so I don't see the two as contradictory. George
:40:40. > :40:44.Eustice also said we could lift EU restrictions on GM technology. Would
:40:45. > :40:48.you support that? I wouldn't give anyone a blank cheque book for a
:40:49. > :40:53.long time I have been impatient with the attitude to GM technology. It is
:40:54. > :40:56.a way of doing faster in a laboratory and more efficiently what
:40:57. > :41:00.agriculture has always done and I'm afraid within the European Union as
:41:01. > :41:11.a whole, there is a certain kind of thing caught up with a mixture of
:41:12. > :41:14.religious and superstitious approach to GM. I recall hearing people say
:41:15. > :41:16.it is not natural. Agriculture is about interference with nature,
:41:17. > :41:27.otherwise we would all be starving. Do you agree? Totally. The latest GM
:41:28. > :41:31.is shifting genes around within a single species, accelerating
:41:32. > :41:36.photosynthesis, which could get increased wheat yields of up to 30%.
:41:37. > :41:42.That would be fantastic. We have seen the green revolution of growing
:41:43. > :41:47.more food on less land, and there's still a billion people hungry on the
:41:48. > :41:54.planet. What was shocking about my trip to Germany is they are not
:41:55. > :42:03.developing products because it is pure witchcraft and superstition
:42:04. > :42:07.that stops it. Very important, the bugs will carry on, there are fun
:42:08. > :42:17.either attack wheat and we have to be ahead of them. -- there are
:42:18. > :42:19.funguses. Now, just when you thought you'd had
:42:20. > :42:22.enough of leadership elections, This one is in the union Unite,
:42:23. > :42:26.the biggest and most powerful The current General Secretary,
:42:27. > :42:29.Len McCluskey, is standing again, and this morning, Gerard Coyne,
:42:30. > :42:31.the union's regional secretary in the West Midlands,
:42:32. > :42:33.threw his hat into the ring. I'm really pleased to be
:42:34. > :42:36.here and to have a number of stewards and reps who I've worked
:42:37. > :42:39.with over the years I'm proud of the record that I've
:42:40. > :42:43.had as the West Midlands regional secretary for the past 15 years
:42:44. > :42:46.working alongside many of you here. But I think the time is right
:42:47. > :42:49.for some change and I think the time It's not about the leadership that
:42:50. > :42:54.we've had thus far although I do think that Unite has become too much
:42:55. > :42:57.of a political commentator and not actually focussing on the direct
:42:58. > :43:00.concerns of our membership. And our political editor
:43:01. > :43:12.Laura Kuenssberg joins me now. What do you think of his chances of
:43:13. > :43:15.defeating Len McCluskey? There is no question Len McCluskey is in a
:43:16. > :43:20.strong position, he's been a huge figure in the Labour movement for
:43:21. > :43:24.some time now and extremely loyal to Jeremy Corbyn. The scaffolding that
:43:25. > :43:28.has propped him up at some of the toughest moments. People involved in
:43:29. > :43:35.Jeremy Corbyn's campaign that if they can get turnout up, they have a
:43:36. > :43:40.chance of taking him on. Turnout has been measly, in fact Len McCluskey
:43:41. > :43:45.was elected on 20% of the 1.4 million, but they loyally turnout in
:43:46. > :43:50.that political cork in terms of that union. So the challenge is about
:43:51. > :43:54.turnout but we will see, it's also going to be a long fought election
:43:55. > :43:58.and it will run officially between March and April, but here we are in
:43:59. > :44:03.December with the contest already having begun. Len McCluskey is an
:44:04. > :44:07.ally of Jeremy Corbyn and as a result Jeremy Corbyn has accused him
:44:08. > :44:11.of dabbling in politics all the time, partly apparently because Len
:44:12. > :44:18.McCluskey has been outflanked on his own left even within Unite. Could
:44:19. > :44:23.this be a proxy for a bigger battle within the Labour Party? I think so,
:44:24. > :44:30.and somebody said to me last night this isn't even a proxy, it is a
:44:31. > :44:34.battle. It is important not to underestimate how important the
:44:35. > :44:38.biggest union is, particularly in this environment when so MPs are
:44:39. > :44:43.hostile towards the leader. In any time of trouble, Len McCluskey has
:44:44. > :44:49.been there for Jeremy Corbyn. I remember the date Jeremy Corbyn won
:44:50. > :44:53.the Labour leadership for the first time, round the corner in a packed
:44:54. > :44:59.up in Westminster the first person on the stage to give him a bear hug
:45:00. > :45:04.was Len McCluskey. It is clear from that image, but what we have seen
:45:05. > :45:08.from the last 18 months is that Len McCluskey's sport has been vital.
:45:09. > :45:13.Not just because of money for the Labour Party, but crucially because
:45:14. > :45:17.the unions also have places on the National executive committee, that
:45:18. > :45:21.is the decision-making body for the Labour Party. To many of our viewers
:45:22. > :45:25.and members of the public, this might sound obscure but to people
:45:26. > :45:27.inside the Labour Party on both sides, this battle could hardly be
:45:28. > :45:37.more important. Right, the loss of Len McCluskey
:45:38. > :45:41.would be big for Jeremy Corbyn, wrestling control from some of his
:45:42. > :45:44.supporters on Labour's NEC could have quite an impact? T-would
:45:45. > :45:47.certainly make him much more vulnerable and Jeremy Corbyn's
:45:48. > :45:52.allies, some of whom I was talking to last night about this, they see
:45:53. > :45:56.this launch of a leadership from Jeremy Corbyn as a political attack
:45:57. > :45:59.on them. They believe that attacks from the PLP have failed. They think
:46:00. > :46:02.this is another way, people inside the Labour Party, who have never
:46:03. > :46:07.reconciled themselves to his leadership of trying to have a go at
:46:08. > :46:12.Jeremy Corbyn. Now, of course, Mr Coyne says himself, he said he feels
:46:13. > :46:17.we have had no choice, but to stand, he wants to make Unite concentrate
:46:18. > :46:22.on the interests of its member, cabin crew, defence workers, people
:46:23. > :46:28.who work in the auto industry, people he believes that are being
:46:29. > :46:32.let down by Len McCluskey playing Westminster snakes and ladders. You
:46:33. > :46:36.know, there is no question, this is the dynamic here and if there were a
:46:37. > :46:42.change at the top of Unite that would be a very big deal, indeed. Do
:46:43. > :46:45.you agree it could change the balance of power within Labour? I
:46:46. > :46:50.don't think it should be about the Labour Party. I disagree with
:46:51. > :46:55.whoever said it is about Labour and all about Jeremy. I have been a
:46:56. > :47:04.member of Unite for more than 50 years. I have known and been a
:47:05. > :47:09.friend of Len and Gerrard for years. I am a friend of both of them. I
:47:10. > :47:15.won't criticise either of them. If you look at the internal dynamic and
:47:16. > :47:22.the battle that has been played out, the loss of Len McCluskey would be a
:47:23. > :47:25.serious blow to Jeremy Corbyn? It undoubtedly would have major
:47:26. > :47:30.implications for the Labour Party. Nobody is doubting that. Didn't the
:47:31. > :47:35.unions play a vital role during the 1980s when the Labour Party was
:47:36. > :47:39.having the similar sort of battles with militant tendency at the time
:47:40. > :47:43.and it was the moderate unions that were credited with bringing the
:47:44. > :47:46.Labour Party back to the centre? The unions have always played a vital
:47:47. > :47:49.role, but it has always been the case where the unions are so
:47:50. > :47:53.important, is in helping to keep the Labour Party's feet on the ground
:47:54. > :47:57.and help to keep us in touch with the Concerns of their members and
:47:58. > :47:59.the wider workforce across the country rather than any involvement
:48:00. > :48:03.which I welcome, but the involvement that they have in the party, to my
:48:04. > :48:08.mind has been second to that. Right, but the Labour Party has gone
:48:09. > :48:13.through a lot of turmoil recently in the last year or so, you gave a
:48:14. > :48:16.number of interviews over the summer, some of them quite emotional
:48:17. > :48:20.when there was pressure on Jeremy Corbyn to stand down as Labour
:48:21. > :48:23.leader, how do you feel now about your party's fortunes after his
:48:24. > :48:26.re-election? Well, I think, there has been a general sort of settling
:48:27. > :48:30.down. I think everybody is very conscious of the problems that the
:48:31. > :48:33.party has and the problems that the country has and how vital it is that
:48:34. > :48:38.we get ourselves into fighting condition to take on a Government
:48:39. > :48:42.which is doing so mump damage and so much Is Jeremy Corbyn harm. Learning
:48:43. > :48:47.the lessons from the report that you wrote on what Labour could learn
:48:48. > :48:50.from losing the 2015 election? Is he taking those on board? I think the
:48:51. > :48:55.one thing that was in that report and that is still very important,
:48:56. > :49:00.because we haven't cracked it yet. I don't mean that Jeremy doesn't want
:49:01. > :49:04.to crack it yet, but we haven't got a simple clear message expressed in
:49:05. > :49:07.few words, I would hope, that tells people what the Labour Party stands
:49:08. > :49:10.for and what having Labour in Government would mean. It was our
:49:11. > :49:14.biggest weakness last time. It is a weakness we still have. I don't
:49:15. > :49:18.blame that on Jeremy. None of us have sorted. But he is the leader?
:49:19. > :49:24.Yes, I know. It is not just down to him. It is down to him to get that
:49:25. > :49:32.answer, yes. You I don't expect him on his own to think it Does that
:49:33. > :49:36.feed up. Into the latest polling figures 17 points behind the
:49:37. > :49:41.Conservatives and coming fourth in Sleaford? We didn't win in 2015
:49:42. > :49:46.because we didn't convince people that we could handle the economy.
:49:47. > :49:50.Now, since then, more recently, it has become more and more clear that
:49:51. > :49:54.George Osborne's long-term economic plan was, you know, the biggest
:49:55. > :49:56.piece of fiction around and that the Conservatives have failed to deliver
:49:57. > :50:00.on all the economic promises that they made. So in that sense, the
:50:01. > :50:04.ground is a bit more favourable, but we haven't yet got our act together
:50:05. > :50:10.sufficiently to get that message across to people. Awe agree with
:50:11. > :50:13.Diane Abbott, the gap can be closed in a year? I hope so. Will it
:50:14. > :50:17.happen, do you think? I have been around a long time. Sometimes these
:50:18. > :50:21.things arlittle, take a little longerment the main thing is that we
:50:22. > :50:28.do it. If it takes more than a year, it takes more than a year.
:50:29. > :50:32.Now, is this how you enjoy your Boxing Day?
:50:33. > :50:35.The Boxing Day sales have become a feature of Britain's yuletide
:50:36. > :50:39.traditions with big discounts on offer for those prepared
:50:40. > :50:42.to queue up before dawn, but could the bargain hunters
:50:43. > :50:44.pleasure be to the detriment of shop workers whose Christmas break
:50:45. > :50:49.Well, an online petition calling for shops to be banned from opening
:50:50. > :50:51.on Boxing Day has attracted more than 100,000 signatures and so was
:50:52. > :51:06.Any proposals would only affect England and Wales.
:51:07. > :51:09.I have moved from indifference to anger and I have done
:51:10. > :51:12.so because all the evidence shows that poorly paid retail workers
:51:13. > :51:13.are being exploited to fuel a national obsession,
:51:14. > :51:16.a debt-fuelled shopping binge that in the end does
:51:17. > :51:26.One of the difficulties with her argument though,
:51:27. > :51:29.however supportive I might be of it, is that actually if people can't go
:51:30. > :51:33.physically to a high street shop or an out of town shop to shop,
:51:34. > :51:35.they will do it online on Christmas Day, on Boxing Day,
:51:36. > :51:38.and ultimately that will take business away from the very
:51:39. > :51:49.shopworkers whose livelihoods we're seeking to protect.
:51:50. > :51:51.We are joined by the Shadow Business Minister Bill Esterson,
:51:52. > :51:55.and by the consumer journalist Harry Wallop.
:51:56. > :52:03.Welcome to both of you. What is your policy, Bill? Jo, well, on Christmas
:52:04. > :52:07.Eve people are working later and later into the evening. People are
:52:08. > :52:11.starting earlier and earlier on Boxing Day as well. We heard about
:52:12. > :52:16.one person who has to be at work for 3am on Boxing Day for 5am opening
:52:17. > :52:20.yesterday in the debate. They don't get any kind of Christmas. They have
:52:21. > :52:23.got family commitments. Some people with children. They're putting the
:52:24. > :52:28.stockings together when they get home late on Christmas Eve and doing
:52:29. > :52:33.the food on Christmas Day, no Christmas and we don't think that's
:52:34. > :52:36.good enough and there should either be an enforcement with the situation
:52:37. > :52:41.where only those who want to work, have to work in large stores or if
:52:42. > :52:44.that doesn't work, large stores shouldn't be allowed to happen just
:52:45. > :52:49.as happens on Christmas Day. What's wrong with that? There are all sorts
:52:50. > :52:53.of people who work on Boxing Day and on Christmas Day. Journalists,
:52:54. > :52:57.railway engineers, indeed, the leisure industry which is taking
:52:58. > :53:01.greater proportion of our disposal income than retail, so all the pubs
:53:02. > :53:10.are open on Christmas Day... Boxing Day? Indeed, many are open on
:53:11. > :53:14.Christmas Day. Especially when the high street is under pressure from
:53:15. > :53:18.online. This is an important day for them. Look at the crowds of people
:53:19. > :53:24.cueing up. Why should retail have an exception? Lots of people work on
:53:25. > :53:29.Christmas Day and Boxing Day in the emergency services, in the NHS,s
:53:30. > :53:33.care sector and hospitality as we just heard, but retail workers are
:53:34. > :53:37.working hard all the way through December and they are contributing
:53:38. > :53:40.massively to people enjoying their Christmas. It is one sector where we
:53:41. > :53:44.can make a difference that's why it is different. Why shouldn't they
:53:45. > :53:48.spend time with their families? It is a time of year when people would
:53:49. > :53:53.like to be at home. At least for one day and just delay the sales, the
:53:54. > :53:59.big rush to the 27th? Some shops don't open on Boxing Day, the market
:54:00. > :54:03.controls this. So... It is a bit difficult to allow workers to stay
:54:04. > :54:12.at home unless there was some intervention, surely? We have a
:54:13. > :54:22.false idea of this being a special moment, Boxing Day and Christmas
:54:23. > :54:29.Day. If we go back to the golder era of a Christmas Carol. There used to
:54:30. > :54:35.be football matches. Do you have a false nostalgia? It is unfortunately
:54:36. > :54:39.nat to use the Christmas Carol, we used to send children up chimneys as
:54:40. > :54:42.well! This is where we should be drawing the line. What about the
:54:43. > :54:46.petition and the response, there seems to be a lot of people in
:54:47. > :54:51.favour of it? Of course, it is popular to legislate for people to
:54:52. > :54:54.have an extra holiday, I don't want to go shopping on Boxing Day, I
:54:55. > :54:58.can't think of anything worse to be in the cue at 5am to rush into an
:54:59. > :55:02.Oxford Street store, just because it is popular, doesn't mean it is
:55:03. > :55:05.right. I don't think it is the place of the Government to enforce a
:55:06. > :55:09.holiday for plenty of people who want to work. Yes, many don't want
:55:10. > :55:17.to work and if we closed shops on Boxing Day, people will still shop
:55:18. > :55:19.and go online, who will still be working, warehouse workers for
:55:20. > :55:22.Amazon. Thank you.
:55:23. > :55:24.Now, in the last hour Donald Trump has confirmed his choice
:55:25. > :55:29.He is the current Chief Executive of oil firm Exxon Mobil.
:55:30. > :55:32.We can talk now to Sohrab Ahmari of the Wall Street Journal
:55:33. > :55:45.What's he like? Well, I don't know him. I have met him. He is an
:55:46. > :55:49.extremely impressive and capable executive and he managed the largest
:55:50. > :55:53.company in the world with 160,000 employees operating in 55 countries.
:55:54. > :55:57.So there will be a lot of objections and questions about his nomination
:55:58. > :56:03.and I have some of those, but a lot of the anxiety in Washington and
:56:04. > :56:09.elsewhere about the fact that he has a business background is irrelevant,
:56:10. > :56:13.a person with a business background such as is well poised to oversea
:56:14. > :56:16.this vast bureaucracy of the State Department and help execute
:56:17. > :56:22.president-elect Trump's policies. But the concerns are that he has too
:56:23. > :56:27.cosy a relationship with Vladimir Putin and his business deals are
:56:28. > :56:31.tied up there. Surely that's not the right person then to have a healthy
:56:32. > :56:37.global reputation as Secretary of State? That's where I have most of
:56:38. > :56:41.my concerns. Where I'm willing to be persuaded is first of all, as a
:56:42. > :56:46.starting point, that he needs to divest from his businesses
:56:47. > :56:51.completely so this that there is no question of conflict of interest.
:56:52. > :56:56.Senators, the US Senate should press him to make sure that the world view
:56:57. > :57:06.that he represented when he was CEO of ex--on which he opposed sanctions
:57:07. > :57:11.after Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea. That's the key question, but
:57:12. > :57:16.it doesn't, I wouldn't just say, that because of that background and
:57:17. > :57:20.what he has had to say as CEO of ex--on, it means that he will be a
:57:21. > :57:25.Putin stupbleg when he is Secretary of State. There will be a battle,
:57:26. > :57:30.isn't there, politically for Mr Trump to get this accepted, by
:57:31. > :57:36.partisan objections to this, is that right? Senator McCain and senior
:57:37. > :57:42.Republican have objected or raised questions at least about his ability
:57:43. > :57:47.to do the job. I would say as far as the Democrats go and the Obama
:57:48. > :57:50.administration, which is now in the, having had the vapours about Russian
:57:51. > :57:55.hacking and Russia's role in the world, I just think it is a bit rich
:57:56. > :57:58.OK because this is the same administration that A, didn't arm
:57:59. > :58:02.Ukraine so it could deter Russian aggression. Initially refused to
:58:03. > :58:06.install missile defence sites in Poland. It is the same
:58:07. > :58:12.administration that has overseen this withdrawal from the Middle East
:58:13. > :58:16.that has seen Russia take America's place as the outside power. It is
:58:17. > :58:21.rich that they are becoming such Russia hawks. Margaret Beckett, what
:58:22. > :58:24.do you think of this appointment? Well, conflicts of interest
:58:25. > :58:27.potential and perhaps actual are enormous, but the thing that
:58:28. > :58:32.actually does somewhat bother me, we have had a track record sometimes in
:58:33. > :58:36.this country of having people brought in from business to politics
:58:37. > :58:41.and to say it doesn't always work is to put it mildly and because America
:58:42. > :58:48.is such an enormous player with so much influence, one must hope, pray,
:58:49. > :58:53.if you like, that Mr Trump is braver than the rest of us and that he's
:58:54. > :58:56.going to get away it and it will work, but it seems to me to be
:58:57. > :59:00.fraught with peril. He seems to think if you have been in business
:59:01. > :59:04.and you know how to do a deal in your financial and personal
:59:05. > :59:07.interest, that equips you to do everything else in life. Fingers and
:59:08. > :59:10.everything else crossed. The One O'Clock News is starting
:59:11. > :59:17.over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11.30am tomorrow
:59:18. > :59:19.with Andrew for live coverage Do join us then.
:59:20. > :59:28.Bye-bye.