:00:37. > :00:39.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.Theresa May's meeting with EU leaders as the BBC learns that
:00:43. > :00:46.Britain's ambassador to Brussels thinks a trade deal could take
:00:47. > :00:48.as long as a decade, instead of the two years ministers
:00:49. > :00:56.As we come on air MPs are debating the Government's plans to find extra
:00:57. > :00:58.funding for social care, paid for by an increase
:00:59. > :01:04.How far will it go to solving this thorny political problem that
:01:05. > :01:09.Jeremy Corbyn's angered some in the Labour Party
:01:10. > :01:11.with his decision to hire a former Sinn Fein member to
:01:12. > :01:15.We've been speaking to his critics and we'll be asking if they're
:01:16. > :01:29.And they may not be entirely in tune but are these Labour MPs right
:01:30. > :01:33.to use a Christmas cover version to target some of Britain's
:01:34. > :01:47.All that in the next hour, and with me for the whole
:01:48. > :01:49.of the programme today is the Conservative peer
:01:50. > :01:53.He used to work in Number 10, where he co-authored the party's
:01:54. > :02:03.Not the last one, actually, the 2010? Time flies when you are
:02:04. > :02:11.writing manifestos! He's now at the Legatum Institute
:02:12. > :02:14.think tank and is also a fellow at the the Jubilee Centre
:02:15. > :02:16.for Character and Virtues. And as character and virtue
:02:17. > :02:19.are in short supply on this show, Theresa May is in Brussels this
:02:20. > :02:24.morning for a summit with her fellow EU leaders,
:02:25. > :02:27.but she'll be excluded by the other 27 this evening when they hold
:02:28. > :02:31.a working dinner to discuss Brexit. Number 10 says it's relaxed
:02:32. > :02:45.about not being invited, You would not want to show you were
:02:46. > :02:48.upset. Meanwhile, back at home,
:02:49. > :02:50.the BBC has learned that Britain's ambassador to the EU,
:02:51. > :02:52.he's called Ivan Rogers, has warned the Government that
:02:53. > :02:55.a post-Brexit UK-EU trade deal might take 10 years to finalise,
:02:56. > :02:57.and still fail. Number 10 says it's still confident
:02:58. > :03:00.a deal can be reached more quickly, and says he was representing
:03:01. > :03:02.the views of other EU members. Theresa May has spoken briefly
:03:03. > :03:05.to the cameras outside I welcome the fact that the other
:03:06. > :03:12.leaders will be meeting to discuss Brexit tonight,
:03:13. > :03:16.as we are going to invoke Article 50, trigger negotiations
:03:17. > :03:19.by the end of March next year. It's right that the other leaders
:03:20. > :03:21.prepare for those negotiations, We want that to be a smooth
:03:22. > :03:27.and orderly process as possible. It's in the interest
:03:28. > :03:39.of the rest of Europe as well. Theresa May in Brussels. Does it
:03:40. > :03:44.matter what the Brussels Ambassador thinks about how long it will take
:03:45. > :03:48.to do a trade deal, he does not know? None of us know. The truth is
:03:49. > :03:53.this is stepping into the unknown, but we step in in a highly unusual
:03:54. > :03:57.way, looking for a free trade deal. Most free-trade deals start with two
:03:58. > :04:02.countries with barriers between them, uniquely possibly in history
:04:03. > :04:07.we start with complete free-trade, no barriers, so we can only do harm,
:04:08. > :04:11.if you like, by putting up barriers, which makes a very different dynamic
:04:12. > :04:15.and one of the reasons the Government is confident it can be
:04:16. > :04:19.completed much more quickly. Is it clear even when Article 50 is
:04:20. > :04:23.triggered that we get to talk traded that two-year period, or is it going
:04:24. > :04:26.to be all about withdrawal? I think we will get to talk trade. We know
:04:27. > :04:45.that we cannot have that talks about having the talks before
:04:46. > :04:47.we press the button on Article 50 and we wait for the Supreme Court
:04:48. > :04:50.judgment on that, but we will be able to start talks not just with
:04:51. > :04:52.the EU but with other countries, which is critical, we have do
:04:53. > :04:55.line-up those other free-trade deals while we negotiate. What they say at
:04:56. > :04:57.the vivid comedy EU politicians, as with ours, it's all posturing to
:04:58. > :04:59.some extent until the bargaining begins, but if the European
:05:00. > :05:02.politicians are seen to be dragging their feet on agreeing some kind of
:05:03. > :05:06.decent access to the single market, are they going to face huge pressure
:05:07. > :05:12.from their manufacturers and businesses? They run a huge surplus
:05:13. > :05:16.with us in good? Yes, at the Legato Institute we have set up a special
:05:17. > :05:19.Trade Commission and brought some of the best trade negotiators from
:05:20. > :05:23.around the world, and they think that we can do a free-trade
:05:24. > :05:27.agreement quickly and, critically, once the politics goes out of it and
:05:28. > :05:31.you are locked into negotiation, it becomes about business, about the
:05:32. > :05:36.bottom line, it quickly becomes clear once you start modelling any
:05:37. > :05:45.barriers all other trade impediments that you cause harm, and whether it
:05:46. > :05:48.is the Italian debt crisis or German car manufacturers, they are not
:05:49. > :05:50.going to want to take a hit just for the sake of political posture. David
:05:51. > :05:54.Davies yesterday, giving evidence to the Brexit Select Committee, Brexit
:05:55. > :05:59.Secretary of State, he made it clear that when it comes to border
:06:00. > :06:02.controls it would be a matter for Britain, not a matter for
:06:03. > :06:06.negotiation. Does it not follow from that, then, that we are talking
:06:07. > :06:12.about a free-trade agreement rather than access, rather than a single
:06:13. > :06:16.market membership? You cannot say that on board a market controls if
:06:17. > :06:22.you want to stay a member of the single market. I think you are
:06:23. > :06:26.right, we are governed into the unknown, I suspect the integrity of
:06:27. > :06:30.the EU and what Britain wants to get out, particularly around the
:06:31. > :06:34.restriction of freedom of movement, is a clean break but a free-trade
:06:35. > :06:39.agreement with the potential for transitional arrangement around
:06:40. > :06:43.specific industries if it proves to be complex. At the Legatum
:06:44. > :06:48.Institute, do you think we can begin with Canada or even Donald Trump's
:06:49. > :06:52.America or Australia, can we begin to outline, I know we cannot sign
:06:53. > :07:05.free-trade deals until it is all done and dusted, but can we begin
:07:06. > :07:07.the conversation is? Once Article 50 is triggered, we can start
:07:08. > :07:09.undertaking the process. Clearly we are bound by European obligations
:07:10. > :07:10.until the Article 50 process has started. Interesting.
:07:11. > :07:12.Social care is an issue that's been rising up the agenda
:07:13. > :07:14.at Westminster recently, as it's become clearer
:07:15. > :07:17.that there is a growing crisis in how local authorities pay
:07:18. > :07:19.for care of the elderly and the disabled as the demands
:07:20. > :07:24.Jeremy Corbyn focused on the issue at Prime Minister's Questions
:07:25. > :07:27.yesterday, and we brought you news that the Government was set to allow
:07:28. > :07:29.councils to raise extra taxes to bring forward planned investment
:07:30. > :07:37.In the last hour, the Communities Secretary Sajid Javid has been
:07:38. > :07:49.Last year, we agreed to the request by many leaders in local Government
:07:50. > :07:56.to introduce a social care Council tax precept of 2% a year, guaranteed
:07:57. > :08:00.to be spent on adult social care. The precept puts money raising
:08:01. > :08:02.powers into the hands of local leaders who best understand the
:08:03. > :08:06.needs of their community and are best placed to respond. In
:08:07. > :08:11.recognition of the immediate challenges that are facing the care
:08:12. > :08:16.market, we will now allow local councils to raise this funding
:08:17. > :08:20.sooner if they wish. Councils will be granted the flexibility to raise
:08:21. > :08:28.the precept by up to 3% next year, and the year after. This will
:08:29. > :08:38.provide a further ?208 million to spend on adult social care in
:08:39. > :08:42.2017-18 and ?444 million in 2018. These measures, together with the
:08:43. > :08:48.changes we have made to the new homes bonus, will make almost ?900
:08:49. > :08:53.million of additional funding for adult social care available over the
:08:54. > :08:55.next two years. Sajid Javid making an announcement
:08:56. > :08:57.that had already been pretty well trailed.
:08:58. > :09:00.We asked to speak to a minister about this,
:09:01. > :09:09.Luckily we're joined by our assistant political
:09:10. > :09:20.He is not allowed to turn us down, he is paid for this sort of thing!
:09:21. > :09:24.He's in the central lobby of the Houses of Parliament.
:09:25. > :09:30.Did we learn anything new? It was pretty much as trailed?
:09:31. > :09:34.I think what we got was a lot of spin about how ?900 million more
:09:35. > :09:37.money is being given to local authorities to deal with social
:09:38. > :09:42.care, but when you strip it down it does not look like that. The vast
:09:43. > :09:45.chunk of that money is, as we reported yesterday, allowing local
:09:46. > :09:49.authorities to bring forward some of the money they have set aside for
:09:50. > :10:03.social care, so it is not new money, it is just frontloading a bit of
:10:04. > :10:07.money. There is a new pot, the social care grant, ?240 million, but
:10:08. > :10:09.low and behold it is not all it seems because this is money local
:10:10. > :10:12.authorities already get for housing, for the new homes bonus. There have
:10:13. > :10:14.been savings in that soap Sajid Javid has taken the savings from
:10:15. > :10:17.local councils and given them back to local councils and said, go and
:10:18. > :10:21.spend it on social care. When you put that together you can say to the
:10:22. > :10:25.Commons, magic, ?900 million more for social care! In the real world,
:10:26. > :10:29.the local authorities dealing with huge pressures, it will not make
:10:30. > :10:33.much difference to them, certainly when you hear the sort of money they
:10:34. > :10:39.believe is needed, they are talking of a shortfall this year alone of ?1
:10:40. > :10:43.billion, 1 million elderly and disabled people doing without care.
:10:44. > :10:47.The scale of the difficulties will not be addressed by simply
:10:48. > :10:50.repackaging existing local authority funding.
:10:51. > :10:54.As I listen to you I am getting flashbacks to the days of Gordon
:10:55. > :10:57.Brown and what he used to do with statistics. It sounds like a
:10:58. > :11:01.legitimate line of criticism here will be that at best this is a
:11:02. > :11:05.sticking plaster and probably an inadequate sticking plaster, and the
:11:06. > :11:08.fundamental issue of the cost, growing cost of social care has not
:11:09. > :11:22.been addressed? I think this
:11:23. > :11:26.is the real issue, Andrew, because everyone knows social care has been
:11:27. > :11:27.the looming iceberg for successive governments, and successive
:11:28. > :11:30.governments have set up Royal Commission is, we have had white
:11:31. > :11:32.papers, danced around the houses and done nothing. Theresa May yesterday
:11:33. > :11:35.said, I am going to be different, I am not going to duck that, so we are
:11:36. > :11:39.looking for a sign that she will grasp the issue and I have to say
:11:40. > :11:43.today we did not get that, all we got from Sajid Javid was a promise
:11:44. > :11:48.of a paper to look at integrating health and social. Everyone knows
:11:49. > :11:53.that has to be done. We also got a promise of a review of their
:11:54. > :11:56.funding. More reviews, more papers, I suspect people in the care sector
:11:57. > :11:59.think we really don't need another with you, what we need is money and
:12:00. > :12:01.action. Norman, thanks for that, good to
:12:02. > :12:05.talk to you on that subject again. funding for schools isn't a story
:12:06. > :12:10.that gets a lot of public attention. But yesterday saw the biggest
:12:11. > :12:12.shake-up in how the budgets of individual schools are set
:12:13. > :12:14.for decades, and there Here's Mark Lobel
:12:15. > :12:18.with all the details. The Department for Education
:12:19. > :12:20.is calling time on uneven funding in England's schools,
:12:21. > :12:26.and that's because a couple of years ago central government consolidated
:12:27. > :12:32.different levels of local authority spending on schools and grants
:12:33. > :12:34.for ethnic minorities All that's left different schools
:12:35. > :12:38.getting different amounts of money. To address the problem,
:12:39. > :12:41.the Education Secretary said yesterday the budgets of around half
:12:42. > :12:43.of England's primary and secondary Our proposed formula will result
:12:44. > :12:52.in more than 10,000 schools now gaining funding and more than 3000
:12:53. > :12:55.of them receiving an And, of course, those that
:12:56. > :13:02.are due to see gains Now, pay attention at
:13:03. > :13:06.the back as we explain Right now, English local authorities
:13:07. > :13:13.get on average ?4600 per pupil. Tower Hamlets, Hackney and Newham
:13:14. > :13:17.all get more than ?6,000 per pupil and Nottingham,
:13:18. > :13:22.Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool At the other end of the scale,
:13:23. > :13:29.Wokingham, Poole and West Sussex Lincolnshire, Derbyshire
:13:30. > :13:33.and Barnsley are on less And, to underline the disparity,
:13:34. > :13:39.let's look at one example in Even though it gets just
:13:40. > :13:45.above the average, it has similar levels of deprivation
:13:46. > :13:49.to Tower Hamlets in London but the local authority there spends
:13:50. > :13:52.over ?2000 more per pupil. Every school here,
:13:53. > :13:58.from Tower Hamlets to Liverpool, will now lose money,
:13:59. > :14:01.and every school here, from Natalie Perera, now
:14:02. > :14:09.at the Education Policy Institute, was a civil servant
:14:10. > :14:13.at the Department for Education, where she worked on the funding
:14:14. > :14:15.formula five years ago. Back then, the coalition government
:14:16. > :14:18.postponed what they felt to be a politically contentious issue
:14:19. > :14:20.which has now come The losses are definitely
:14:21. > :14:27.the metropolitan areas, The gainers are a bit more
:14:28. > :14:35.diverse, so some rural, Is more money going into
:14:36. > :14:41.deprived areas and, if so, where is that money coming from,
:14:42. > :14:45.and how is it being allocated? There's more money going
:14:46. > :14:48.into the deprived pot, and that's coming from the general
:14:49. > :14:51.pot for all pupils and, when we look at how that pot
:14:52. > :14:58.is being spent, it looks like, compared to now, there's a bit more
:14:59. > :15:02.money going into the least deprived neighbourhoods and a bit less money
:15:03. > :15:05.going into the more deprived Does that fit in with
:15:06. > :15:11.the rhetoric of helping Yeah, it seems like that's what's
:15:12. > :15:15.driving or what might be The other surprises were that this
:15:16. > :15:20.takes place over just two years, so quickly, and that the lump sum
:15:21. > :15:23.that each school receives is being cut up to ?65,000,
:15:24. > :15:27.which is particularly bad news There will be a 14-week consultation
:15:28. > :15:35.on the proposals and a final Then councils will no longer
:15:36. > :15:41.distribute money to schools by 2019, which means that many of the 20,000
:15:42. > :15:44.primary and secondary schools in England,
:15:45. > :15:47.as a result of this settlement, inflationary pressures
:15:48. > :15:50.and extra pension costs, will have to seriously consider
:15:51. > :15:52.cutting staff, increasing class sizes and narrowing
:15:53. > :15:58.their curriculum. And we're joined now
:15:59. > :16:10.by the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb. Welcome back. I know you are going
:16:11. > :16:15.to argue this new formula is fair. I will come to that. But is it
:16:16. > :16:18.possible to be fair at all when the whole schools system in England,
:16:19. > :16:22.because that is what we are talking about, for the rest of the country
:16:23. > :16:30.it is a devolved matter, the English schools system faces a massive real
:16:31. > :16:36.terms cut of ?3 billion. That can't be fair. We have protected because
:16:37. > :16:40.schools budget in real terms. We are spending a record amount, ?40
:16:41. > :16:45.billion this year. We have to marshal our resources. We have a
:16:46. > :16:49.record historic budget deficit to tackle and we've managed to protect
:16:50. > :16:53.schools from contributing to that reduction in the deficit over the
:16:54. > :16:58.last six years, but we have to make sure that schools are running as
:16:59. > :17:02.efficiently as possible, that they marshal their staff and resources,
:17:03. > :17:07.and we are helping them do that. But the National Audit Office, an
:17:08. > :17:11.independent and reliable authority, points out that school budgets are
:17:12. > :17:16.being squeezed by pay rises, the national living wage, higher
:17:17. > :17:18.employer contributions to national insurance and pensions, the
:17:19. > :17:25.apprenticeship levy, and you add all of that up and it faces having to
:17:26. > :17:31.make savings of ?3 billion before the end of the decade. It's
:17:32. > :17:37.equivalent to 8% real percent cut in funding. It's the worst cut since
:17:38. > :17:42.your party was last in power. Yes, and we are helping schools to
:17:43. > :17:45.deliver services more efficiently. It emphasises why having a bearer
:17:46. > :17:50.national funding formula was so important, because we are addressing
:17:51. > :17:54.these historic unfairness is in areas like West Sussex, the area
:17:55. > :17:59.that I represent. Historically, it has been underfunded over the years.
:18:00. > :18:04.We are addressing that across the country and fairly swiftly. Many
:18:05. > :18:07.people listening will say, if that's your definition of protecting
:18:08. > :18:13.schools, you wonder what it would be like if you weren't protecting them.
:18:14. > :18:16.You seem the rankings, the international rankings done by the
:18:17. > :18:22.OECD, probably the most authoritative global standard. We
:18:23. > :18:28.are ranked 27th in that. By week, I mean the UK, 27th in the world, the
:18:29. > :18:35.lowest we have ever been. -- why we. This isn't a time to be taking 3
:18:36. > :18:38.billion hand-out. That was 15-year-olds, tested November last
:18:39. > :18:47.year. We have radically improved the primary school system. We had the
:18:48. > :18:51.first Sats taken this May under this curriculum. Next year, I am
:18:52. > :18:55.confident we will see rises in our status. But those figures have not
:18:56. > :19:01.benefited from those reforms. You have been in power for six years. It
:19:02. > :19:06.takes a number of years to implement reforms. You have to give schools
:19:07. > :19:10.and amount of time to prepare for the new GCSEs. They started to be
:19:11. > :19:15.taught September 2015, so the children who took this test took it
:19:16. > :19:22.in November 2015 and didn't benefit from that. In time, I am confident
:19:23. > :19:26.we will see a rise. Other countries are doing better, too. That's why we
:19:27. > :19:31.have to reform. Over the last six years, because of what we have been
:19:32. > :19:36.doing on improving school behaviour and standards in schools, 1.8
:19:37. > :19:40.million more children are today in good or outstanding schools is rated
:19:41. > :19:46.by Ofsted compared to 2010. We are on that success. We shall see,
:19:47. > :19:51.because the Pisa rankings are quite hard to fiddle or change. 22nd in
:19:52. > :19:59.Reading, having fallen out of the top 20 in 2006. That seems a long
:20:00. > :20:04.way to go. There is another point in pic, which is that you have talked
:20:05. > :20:07.about the UK figures. If you look at the performance of England in that
:20:08. > :20:11.period, it has been reasonably stable. What is really interesting
:20:12. > :20:15.and has not had enough coverage is that Wales and Scotland have been
:20:16. > :20:19.deteriorating in standard, and they haven't been doing the kind of
:20:20. > :20:23.school reforms that the Conservative and coalition government have. Those
:20:24. > :20:27.will take time to pay off, but the truth is that you can't stand still
:20:28. > :20:31.in this game. If you don't pay attention, and it isn't all about
:20:32. > :20:37.money, it's about reform, those standards will go backwards. But on
:20:38. > :20:39.the Pisa rankings, you can desegregate for the former
:20:40. > :20:46.cremations and, if you do that, England still doesn't look great.
:20:47. > :20:49.Edge the four nations. If you read the Scottish press, there is a lot
:20:50. > :20:53.of concern about what is happening in Scottish schools and the
:20:54. > :20:56.government up there is under pressure but, even when England is
:20:57. > :21:01.taken on its own, it isn't great. Let's look at some of the winners
:21:02. > :21:05.and losers in this funding formula. Areas getting more money,
:21:06. > :21:11.Buckinghamshire, West Sussex, Bath. Areas getting less, wooden, Bolton,
:21:12. > :21:17.in London. In other words, Tory areas get more, non-Tory areas get
:21:18. > :21:22.less. -- Wigan, Bolton, inner London. London is still 30% better
:21:23. > :21:29.funded than any other part of England. This formula is fair. It
:21:30. > :21:35.puts a great weight on deprivation, an low prior attainment in terms of
:21:36. > :21:38.pupils. Don't forget, we are addressing atrophied funding system
:21:39. > :21:43.where the data is out of date. It is ten years old and London in that
:21:44. > :21:47.period has improved its wealth. The level of free school meals in London
:21:48. > :21:53.has declined significantly. It is still the best funded part of our
:21:54. > :21:57.system. You can pick some areas which are non-Tory areas and they
:21:58. > :21:59.will do a bit better, but overwhelmingly there will be less
:22:00. > :22:06.funding for schools in Manchester, Liverpool, Wigan, Warrington. There
:22:07. > :22:11.will be increases in Blackpool and Bolton, I understand that. Secondary
:22:12. > :22:14.places in Buckinghamshire, West Sussex, Bath, Cambridgeshire, they
:22:15. > :22:19.will all get an increase. The organisation representing schools in
:22:20. > :22:25.north-east England, where you only have three MPs, say the new formula
:22:26. > :22:28.is designed, quote, to divert vital resources from schools in
:22:29. > :22:33.disadvantaged areas to affluent boroughs. As I said, London is still
:22:34. > :22:37.the highest funded area in the country. We were very careful with
:22:38. > :22:43.how we construct of the formula, as set out in the film. We took money
:22:44. > :22:47.from the basic unit of funding, about three quarters of the total
:22:48. > :22:51.per-pupil funding. We put a lot into deprivation, which is the highest
:22:52. > :22:56.significant factor after the basic unit, then lower prior attainment,
:22:57. > :22:59.then sparsity and rural area issues. The biggest single factor is
:23:00. > :23:04.deprivation. We believe that, if you want to get social mobility and help
:23:05. > :23:08.children from poorer families, you need to put money into schools. It's
:23:09. > :23:13.just so happens that some of those areas are less deprived than they
:23:14. > :23:17.were ten years ago. The north-east of England, although it has been
:23:18. > :23:22.doing well recently, nevertheless has lots of areas of deprivation.
:23:23. > :23:25.Mike Parker, director of schools in the north-east, we remain deeply
:23:26. > :23:30.concerned that the is doggedly pursuing grounds to pursue an area
:23:31. > :23:33.cost adjustment that will divert vital resources from schools in
:23:34. > :23:38.disadvantaged areas to affluent boroughs. I come back to my original
:23:39. > :23:41.point. In real terms, you are expecting schools to make a
:23:42. > :23:48.substantial cut and to this at the same time. It seems that a lot of
:23:49. > :23:53.schools in some of the poorest areas are going to be in trouble. The area
:23:54. > :23:56.cost adjustment means that you fund schools and reflect an area of
:23:57. > :23:59.funding to reflect higher salaries that they have to face. The other
:24:00. > :24:06.areas that have gained have historically been underfunded and
:24:07. > :24:10.are facing real problems as a consequence. What this has done,
:24:11. > :24:13.this national funding formula, it has taken a series of principles
:24:14. > :24:20.that we consulted on for several months, and they won widespread
:24:21. > :24:23.support from the people we approached, because it is right to
:24:24. > :24:27.reflect the funding of schools based on deprivation, based on prior
:24:28. > :24:29.learning, based on the number of children speaking English as a
:24:30. > :24:35.second language. These are key factors. No other government has
:24:36. > :24:39.grasped the nettle on this issue. It is very controversial. We decided we
:24:40. > :24:45.would do it, notwithstanding the other pressures on school funding.
:24:46. > :24:50.But you are doing this at a time when real budgets have been cut in
:24:51. > :24:55.real terms, and already 60% of secondary schools in England are
:24:56. > :24:58.running a deficit. Yes, and we have to... And so is the government. We
:24:59. > :25:05.have to tackle this historic budget deficit. If we don't tackle it, we
:25:06. > :25:10.won't have a strong economy. We have the fastest growing economy as a
:25:11. > :25:15.consequence in the G7 and a million more businesses since 2010,
:25:16. > :25:20.unemployment below 5%, and this is important for the long-term. 60% of
:25:21. > :25:27.academy is now spent more than their income. That is why the new formula
:25:28. > :25:30.is important. But you are taking money away from schools. They will
:25:31. > :25:33.have to make efficiencies and we are helping schools to determine the
:25:34. > :25:38.best way of marshalling their staff and procuring. We are working on a
:25:39. > :25:43.national buying scheme for things like electricity and IT. They have
:25:44. > :25:47.to do more with less. We have seen that across Whitehall. So far, we
:25:48. > :25:52.have protected schools from those savings. You say that, but people
:25:53. > :25:56.will still look at the National Audit Office and wonder if that is
:25:57. > :26:00.really true. We will see in the years ahead if that is the case.
:26:01. > :26:08.James, grammar schools, another area of education policy, and there was a
:26:09. > :26:13.consultation, and you, or your organisation, has contributed. What
:26:14. > :26:18.was your contribution? Before that, one point on the funding issue. I
:26:19. > :26:22.set up what is called a multi-academy trust, a group of
:26:23. > :26:27.schools. We have three schools, one of which is in an inner London
:26:28. > :26:29.borough, and one of which is in Woking, the lowest funded borough.
:26:30. > :26:35.The discrepancies in funding between those schools is significant. But
:26:36. > :26:38.the challenges that they face are not that different. When you see it
:26:39. > :26:43.and what you can do in each school as a consequence, it brings it home.
:26:44. > :26:47.There is a historic unfairness and the funding environment is tough.
:26:48. > :26:51.When you see it up close, that unfairness is quite hard to justify
:26:52. > :26:56.the parents, why you are doing one thing in one of your schools and not
:26:57. > :27:04.in the other. OK, what about grammar schools? This is probably, if money
:27:05. > :27:09.is controversial, academic selection is pretty controversial, too. Unless
:27:10. > :27:13.you can afford to go privately... The challenge that the green paper
:27:14. > :27:17.sets out was, is there a way in which selection could be included in
:27:18. > :27:23.the system in a way which benefits those who need it most? The way I
:27:24. > :27:27.describe it is, is it a tide that can lift all boats? My view is that,
:27:28. > :27:32.if you set up selective schools in some of the areas which have been
:27:33. > :27:34.most stubbornly resistant to interventions, they can act as a
:27:35. > :27:43.catalyst by bringing together academic staff, affluent shall --...
:27:44. > :27:46.It sounds like a lot of ifs. You would think the bigger danger is
:27:47. > :27:50.that, for those that make the grammar school in the inner-city,
:27:51. > :27:56.they would probably go pretty well, but the others would be left behind.
:27:57. > :27:59.Which is why you have to decide it carefully. I've suggested a pilot
:28:00. > :28:03.based on the free school model, where it's controlled by central
:28:04. > :28:09.government. Knowsley council, one of the lowest performing boroughs, had
:28:10. > :28:13.its own education commission which suggested creating a grammar school
:28:14. > :28:16.to do that. There is a case for doing it in some of these low
:28:17. > :28:21.prosperity or what the government is calling social mobility areas. ...
:28:22. > :28:26.Are you going to leave it to local areas to determine whether they have
:28:27. > :28:31.grammar schools or are you going to do as James suggests, that central
:28:32. > :28:36.government will identify where you believe grammar schools could be
:28:37. > :28:39.useful? It will be demand led, so it will come from the grassroots. They
:28:40. > :28:45.will have to demonstrate that there is support for a grammar school. 99%
:28:46. > :28:49.of existing grammar schools are good or outstanding, and what we are
:28:50. > :28:53.determined to do is to create more good school places. 1.8 million more
:28:54. > :28:57.children in good or outstanding schools in the last four years, but
:28:58. > :29:03.still 1.25 million in schools that are not good enough. You have had a
:29:04. > :29:12.consultation process. As that come to an end? It closed on Monday. ...
:29:13. > :29:15.So when will the policy emerged? We will examine all the thousands of
:29:16. > :29:23.responses and we will say something more in early spring in response to
:29:24. > :29:26.that. But it is important to give parents more choice and to spread
:29:27. > :29:30.the expertise. There are many areas of the country where frankly very
:29:31. > :29:37.able children are not getting quality of education that they need.
:29:38. > :29:41.This is what this is about. One does the deal go through Parliament? We
:29:42. > :29:47.will talk about that in the New Year. We will look at the responses
:29:48. > :29:52.first and continue to talk to colleagues about their ideas about
:29:53. > :29:56.how we can ensure that more children from deprived backgrounds, from
:29:57. > :30:00.poorer income families get access to these grammar schools. What we know
:30:01. > :30:04.is that, when children to attend the schools from the raw families, they
:30:05. > :30:11.make more progress than their affluent peers. -- from poorer
:30:12. > :30:19.families. We did ask Angela Rayner from Labour's shadow education bench
:30:20. > :30:21.to join us but she has been taken unwell.
:30:22. > :30:24.There's some anger in sections of the Labour Party this morning
:30:25. > :30:26.after it emerged that Jeremy Corbyn has appointed the former head
:30:27. > :30:29.of Sinn Fein's London office to work for him.
:30:30. > :30:32.Jayne Fisher - on the left of this picture in Westminster last year
:30:33. > :30:42.alongside Martin McGuiness, Jeremy Corbyn and Gerry Adams -
:30:43. > :30:44.is, according to the Guido Fawkes website, due to start
:30:45. > :30:46.working in the Labour leader's office in January.
:30:47. > :30:49.The appointment has caused anger in some parts of the party,
:30:50. > :30:51.and we've been in touch with some Labour MPs this morning.
:30:52. > :30:55.One told us that it was "completely bonkers" and was "an early Christmas
:30:56. > :30:59.Another Labour MP said that the leadership "are completely
:31:00. > :31:02.divorcing themselves from the rest of the world".
:31:03. > :31:05.A third told us that it was "another example of shooting
:31:06. > :31:14.The Daily Politics also spoke to the former First Minister
:31:15. > :31:20.of Northern Ireland, Lord Trimble, who told us...
:31:21. > :31:23."We know from our own intelligence services that Sinn Fein is not
:31:24. > :31:25.a normal political party and operates under
:31:26. > :31:30.The IRA remains a proscribed organisation.
:31:31. > :31:33.It is very foolish of Mr Corbyn to put himself in to a relationship
:31:34. > :31:39.We also spoke to former Northern Ireland Secretary Peter Hain,
:31:40. > :31:44."She is a very experienced parliamentary researcher and carries
:31:45. > :31:48.a lot of credibility on a cross-party basis.
:31:49. > :31:49.She has obviously been hired for her expertise
:31:50. > :31:57.rather than as a former Sinn Fein employee."
:31:58. > :32:00.We asked the Labour Party for a comment but a spokesman told
:32:01. > :32:10.us, "We don't comment on staffing matters."
:32:11. > :32:12.Joining me now is the associate editor of the Daily Mirror,
:32:13. > :32:15.Kevin Maguire, and Alex Wickham of the Guido Fawkes website which,
:32:16. > :32:17.as I said, has been covering the story.
:32:18. > :32:22.Kevin, when you look at the talent available to someone like Jeremy
:32:23. > :32:27.Corbyn, why would you pick somebody from a Sinn Fein background? She has
:32:28. > :32:31.been a Labour Party member for 30 or 40 years and is very respected and
:32:32. > :32:36.talented. One of the criticisms of his office is it has not been run
:32:37. > :32:41.well. She will bring in a huge degree of professionalism. It is
:32:42. > :32:45.interesting that people in Labour who are complaining will not be
:32:46. > :32:50.named because I suspect if you spoke to Colin McGinn or Vernon Coaker,
:32:51. > :32:54.two MPs who are hostile to Jeremy Corbyn, but have a big interest in
:32:55. > :32:57.Northern Ireland affairs, they have dealt with her as well, I have dealt
:32:58. > :33:01.with her professionally for years and she is very good. I had a little
:33:02. > :33:05.laugh when I saw the picture of Corbyn with Martin McGuinness and
:33:06. > :33:07.Gerry Adams in Westminster because Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness
:33:08. > :33:11.were on their way from David Cameron, that is when it was taken.
:33:12. > :33:18.There are pictures of Martin McGuinness with the Queen. Jeremy
:33:19. > :33:24.Corbyn, look... He had his picture taken with them when they were not
:33:25. > :33:29.going to see the Queen or David Cameron. You will be on the right
:33:30. > :33:36.side of history in engaging people in Northern Ireland and bringing
:33:37. > :33:41.them in the mainstream of politics. Willie Whitelaw was meeting the IRA,
:33:42. > :33:45.John Major had contacts. Jeremy Corbyn was not trying to start the
:33:46. > :33:52.peace process. Jeremy Corbyn wanted peace. One of the problems with
:33:53. > :33:56.Jeremy Corbyn... He supported getting troops out. So did the daily
:33:57. > :33:59.Mirror, because at the time there was huge public opinion in favour of
:34:00. > :34:03.troops out because it was felt the presence of troops was inflaming the
:34:04. > :34:10.situation and they were becoming targets themselves. It was about
:34:11. > :34:13.reducing violence. We tried to speak to the two Labour MPs you mentioned
:34:14. > :34:18.but could not get a comment from them. This woman has been a member
:34:19. > :34:22.of the Labour Party for a long while. Full marks to Kevin for
:34:23. > :34:25.giving her a spirited defence, but if you look at it the Tories' main
:34:26. > :34:30.attack line against Jeremy Corbyn over the last couple of years has
:34:31. > :34:34.been that he is a friend of terrorists, remember David Cameron
:34:35. > :34:37.saying that famously to some controversy, and Jeremy Corbyn has
:34:38. > :34:42.kind of confirmed the worst fears by hiring a woman he was not just a
:34:43. > :34:46.Labour Party member or former employee of -- employee of Sinn
:34:47. > :34:51.Fein, there are photographs of her with Brendan McFarlane, a convicted
:34:52. > :34:54.terrorist, convicted of the shooting of five civilians, photos of her
:34:55. > :34:59.with other convicted terrorist guy with Hugo Chavez, she is a member of
:35:00. > :35:05.the pro-Castro Cuba Solidarity campaign, the list goes on. A very
:35:06. > :35:09.good attempt at defending her, but it won't really wash with the wider
:35:10. > :35:13.public. Can you imagine knocking on the streets of a constituency that
:35:14. > :35:17.has been a victim of an IRA bombing if you are a Labour candidate or
:35:18. > :35:23.Labour MP and asking for those people's votes? It won't wash. I
:35:24. > :35:26.have been at meetings when Jayne Fisher has been there with the
:35:27. > :35:30.survivors of violence. The families of people who were killed by the
:35:31. > :35:33.IRA. People have moved on, there has been the Good Friday peace
:35:34. > :35:38.agreement. The truth is, Alex, you and some in the Tory party, if
:35:39. > :35:42.Jeremy Corbyn could walk on water and have healing hands, you would
:35:43. > :35:48.accuse him of putting therapy workers out of business. It is just
:35:49. > :35:52.an automatic response. You have got to move on. People have moved on,
:35:53. > :35:57.and she is not part of that violence in any way. It is a terrible smear
:35:58. > :36:07.to somehow suggest in any way that she was. Of course, but... Of course
:36:08. > :36:11.what? Of course she was not involved in violence or supporting it in any
:36:12. > :36:17.way? Of course she was not involved in violence. But did not supported?
:36:18. > :36:22.She is standing alongside a man who was jailed for an attack in which
:36:23. > :36:25.five civilians died. I would challenge Kevin's point about
:36:26. > :36:28.whether people have moved on. The problem the Labour Party has with
:36:29. > :36:33.its patron of debate, whether they feel they have moved on in how they
:36:34. > :36:38.feel about the IRA, Sinn Fein and so on, I have to say as somebody from
:36:39. > :36:42.an Irish Catholic background it is pretty obvious that the IRA and Sinn
:36:43. > :36:45.Fein have not done a lot for the reputation of Irish Catholics in
:36:46. > :36:49.this country who want to integrate and assimilate, and having that
:36:50. > :36:53.associated with the Labour Party, the Labour leader, I don't think
:36:54. > :36:57.people have moved on, they may have moved on in a bubble but in reality
:36:58. > :37:02.they feel strongly about the history of sectarian violence. I can apply
:37:03. > :37:05.for an Irish passport as well, and I might have to Brexit, and played the
:37:06. > :37:08.Catholic part as well, and I find when speaking to people about
:37:09. > :37:12.Northern Ireland they wanted to stay back where it was. They are happy
:37:13. > :37:16.now that in Northern Ireland you have parties working together, not
:37:17. > :37:21.always perfectly and there are huge tensions, none of that should be
:37:22. > :37:25.ignored, but people have moved on, and that is why I don't think... Can
:37:26. > :37:30.you imagine what Paul Nuttall is going to do with this information?
:37:31. > :37:34.He is already eating into Labour heartlands, he is already going on
:37:35. > :37:42.that patriotic is an attack line. Peter Hain, former Northern Ireland
:37:43. > :37:46.Secretary, not a fan of Jeremy Corbyn's, he says he knows Jayne
:37:47. > :37:49.Fisher and this is blown out of proportion. Jeremy Corbyn's team
:37:50. > :37:53.have said she is a lovely person but at the end of the day you can make
:37:54. > :37:58.those arguments but it does not cut through. When you knock on people's
:37:59. > :38:02.doors, I spoke to a Labour MP a few months ago who said that they knock
:38:03. > :38:06.on doors in their constituency, a constituency which was bombed by the
:38:07. > :38:09.IRA, and the thing they hear is that John McDonnell is the Shadow
:38:10. > :38:14.Chancellor and has links to the IRA, how can I vote for you? This feeds
:38:15. > :38:20.into that Tory and Ukip attack line. I can see for your attacks Jayne
:38:21. > :38:24.Fisher is just collateral damage, you have just taken her to battered
:38:25. > :38:29.Jeremy Corbyn, I understand that. But if you express it the Rayudu on
:38:30. > :38:34.doorsteps, yes, people will react badly. -- the way you do. If you
:38:35. > :38:41.tell them the truth and they meet Jayne Fisher, they will not. Don't
:38:42. > :38:47.you think, whether right or wrong, shouldn't Mr Corbyn have some people
:38:48. > :38:54.around him, all leaders need this at some stage, who would protect him
:38:55. > :38:59.from himself? This is a man as a young MP he hosted two convicted IRA
:39:00. > :39:03.terrorist in Parliament, two weeks after the Brighton bombing, two
:39:04. > :39:08.weeks after the IRA tried to destroy the British Government with a bomb,
:39:09. > :39:12.he invited two convicted IRA terrorists into Parliament. This
:39:13. > :39:15.appointment, she may be good, she may be smart, she may have her hands
:39:16. > :39:21.entirely clean of violence and all the rest of it, but this just brings
:39:22. > :39:32.his record back. Wouldn't be wise advice be to say, Jeremy, there were
:39:33. > :39:35.other people about? On the specific, he was trying to pull the IRA away
:39:36. > :39:39.from violence, and in the end it worked. We don't want to overstate
:39:40. > :39:43.his role... But in the early days, when nobody else was doing it, it
:39:44. > :39:47.was good that people like Jeremy Corbyn were reaching out, the Good
:39:48. > :39:51.Friday peace agreement, I was there in 98 in Stormont when it was
:39:52. > :39:59.hailstones, it was a landmark moment. Of course Tony Blair,
:40:00. > :40:03.Jonathan Powell, Bertie Ahern, it was a landmark, but you needed
:40:04. > :40:07.people, you always need in politics and civil society, to reach out and
:40:08. > :40:10.do some of the early work. But you are right, he needs to widen his
:40:11. > :40:16.team in Westminster, it needs to be more professional. She is very, very
:40:17. > :40:20.professional. We are talking about Labour's links to the IRA today,
:40:21. > :40:24.that is not the message Labour want to put out. It is the message you
:40:25. > :40:26.always want to put out. No more times that, we are out of time but I
:40:27. > :40:33.thank both. -- I thank you both. Now to the latest part of our series
:40:34. > :40:37.looking at the issues faced by key Government departments
:40:38. > :40:39.in the run-up to Brexit. We've already covered
:40:40. > :40:41.the Home Office and the Department for the Environment and Rural
:40:42. > :40:42.Affairs. For today's Brexit Tracker,
:40:43. > :40:44.we've turned our attention to the Department for Education,
:40:45. > :40:51.which, since the summer, has also That used to be with the business
:40:52. > :40:51.Department. You have to keep up with these things.
:40:52. > :40:55.Ministers and their civil servants in the Department for Education have
:40:56. > :40:58.to wrestle with many issues as they plan for a post-Brexit
:40:59. > :41:01.world, not least what leaving the EU will do for the number
:41:02. > :41:08.Will an exodus of migrants free up places, and how will that affect
:41:09. > :41:14.Overseas teacher recruitment has increased in recent years,
:41:15. > :41:17.with many in particular coming from Spain.
:41:18. > :41:22.Around 17% of university staff are EU nationals,
:41:23. > :41:25.so education officials will be taking a keen interest in changes
:41:26. > :41:31.Will an exodus of migrants free up places, and how will that affect
:41:32. > :41:33.EU students applying for courses starting next autumn will not see
:41:34. > :41:35.any changes to their loan eligibility or fee status
:41:36. > :41:38.for the full duration of their course, but politicians
:41:39. > :41:41.will need to work out what EU students will need
:41:42. > :41:45.to pay in good time for the subsequent academic year.
:41:46. > :41:47.University research funding has been guaranteed for projects that start
:41:48. > :41:51.before the UK leaves the EU, but the Government will now be able
:41:52. > :41:54.to look again at the long-term future of UK collaboration
:41:55. > :42:02.Will UK universities be able to continue to participate
:42:03. > :42:05.in the Erasmus Plus exchange programme, which allows
:42:06. > :42:08.students to study in Europe for free for up to a year,
:42:09. > :42:14.The Scottish Government has said that EU citizens will,
:42:15. > :42:15.like Scots themselves, continue to receive
:42:16. > :42:19.free university tuition following Brexit, but English,
:42:20. > :42:25.Welsh and Northern Irish students will still have to pay fees.
:42:26. > :42:27.Will the post-Brexit settlement with Scotland look to end
:42:28. > :42:35.These are just some of the issues Education Secretary Justine Greening
:42:36. > :42:38.and her team have on their plates as the Government moves ever closer
:42:39. > :42:41.to triggering Article 50 and firing the starting gun on our exit
:42:42. > :42:49.We're joined now by the former Liberal Democrat schools
:42:50. > :42:53.He's now chair of the Education Policy Institute.
:42:54. > :42:56.And our guest of the day James O'Shaughnessy is still here -
:42:57. > :43:03.he set up an academies trust which runs three primary schools.
:43:04. > :43:11.David Laws, in 2014, 15, six of teachers who gained qualified status
:43:12. > :43:17.in England came from overseas. Is that going to be a problem posed
:43:18. > :43:21.Brexit? It could well be because the approach of the moment that Theresa
:43:22. > :43:26.May seems to want to take is one that will give, we think, priority
:43:27. > :43:29.to try to get net immigration numbers back down. At the moment
:43:30. > :43:36.there are only a restricted number of teaching roles, particularly
:43:37. > :43:40.generally science subjects are given priority in terms of visas, so if
:43:41. > :43:44.the EU is subject to the same constraints then I think we will
:43:45. > :43:47.find it quite difficult to recruit, for example, the many
:43:48. > :43:57.foreign-language teachers the Government is going to need at this
:43:58. > :44:05.-- as it in temps to improve foreign-language take-up. It seems
:44:06. > :44:13.they will have to be liberal with this? I think the message from the
:44:14. > :44:16.Brexit vote if a majority of people want to see an end to free movement
:44:17. > :44:20.where people can come and go without having a job. There are some
:44:21. > :44:25.industries, David talked about one subsector within an industry, where
:44:26. > :44:28.it inevitably one is going to have to rely on immigration in order to
:44:29. > :44:33.pull some of those gaps, particularly in the short run. One
:44:34. > :44:37.of the things that have happened in the last 15 years is instead of
:44:38. > :44:40.importing a lot of doctors into the NHS we have been training our own to
:44:41. > :44:44.try to address that so clearly there are things the Government will have
:44:45. > :44:51.to do here to address that. Of course there will still be inward
:44:52. > :44:55.migration. So the Government will need to qualify more teachers? We
:44:56. > :44:59.will need to do some of that work in our own country but one of the
:45:00. > :45:04.challenges will be what wider impact does our leaving the European Union
:45:05. > :45:07.have on the growth numbers and public spending? We have a situation
:45:08. > :45:13.where with the constraints on teacher pay we are seeing
:45:14. > :45:15.difficulties recruiting into the public sector, including teaching,
:45:16. > :45:20.so the wider impact on public expenditure will impact on our
:45:21. > :45:27.ability to recruit new teachers. Will it lead to more of what Mr
:45:28. > :45:32.Clegg used to get annoyed about, unqualified teachers? I don't think
:45:33. > :45:37.so, there is clearly a policy choice for the Government on whether to
:45:38. > :45:39.extend the access to state schools for unqualified teachers. The
:45:40. > :45:43.evidence shows that even those schools that have the ability to
:45:44. > :45:46.recruit unqualified teachers don't generally like to use that freedom,
:45:47. > :45:50.they generally want people with suitable qualifications.
:45:51. > :46:00.Let's look at universities now. We hear a lot about continued access
:46:01. > :46:04.for EU students coming to this country. But EU academics make up
:46:05. > :46:13.17% of university training and teaching research posts. Will we
:46:14. > :46:18.remain a destination? How universities are regarded, a lot of
:46:19. > :46:24.them, as world-class. A lot of European universities are not. Can
:46:25. > :46:27.we continue to be a beacon for them? Absolutely, into microwaves, because
:46:28. > :46:31.there are definitely going to be both students and staff coming to
:46:32. > :46:36.universities the argument round immigration is not about the high
:46:37. > :46:42.skilled end. Politically, it is an easy argument to win. The other
:46:43. > :46:48.thing is about research. There is concern in British universities at
:46:49. > :46:53.your feet -- European research programme called Horizon 2020 and
:46:54. > :46:57.Britain's role post-Brexit. Interesting to note that both Israel
:46:58. > :47:02.and Tunisia, definitely not members of the EU, are involved in that
:47:03. > :47:06.programme, so there is no reason to think that Britain couldn't continue
:47:07. > :47:12.to play a central role in that very important strand of European
:47:13. > :47:16.research work. I think he is right on the last point, that we could
:47:17. > :47:20.strike deals to allow access to particular programmes. The big issue
:47:21. > :47:24.for education is the university sector and the extent to which
:47:25. > :47:28.Theresa May wants to use control of student numbers to get a quick win
:47:29. > :47:32.on immigration and reduce net immigration quickly. If she does
:47:33. > :47:39.that, both for EU and presumably non-EU students, the UK university
:47:40. > :47:43.'s dependence on both students and the huge amount of money that they
:47:44. > :47:47.bring in could actually be exposed and could do quite a lot of damage
:47:48. > :47:52.to our higher education sector. So I think there is a lot of legitimate
:47:53. > :47:56.worry about this. You are going to see strange impact on student
:47:57. > :47:59.numbers as people try to access the UK before Brexit and then are
:48:00. > :48:05.uncertain about the consequences of Brexit. It's the big issue in
:48:06. > :48:09.education. The government, including the coalition government up to 2015,
:48:10. > :48:14.said it had helped to clean up the higher education sector in terms of
:48:15. > :48:19.getting rid of colleges and students coming here were now by and large
:48:20. > :48:23.going to what were regarded as proper institutions. -- getting rid
:48:24. > :48:27.of bogus colleges. Having done that, would it not make sense to take
:48:28. > :48:32.student numbers out of the immigration figures? At the time,
:48:33. > :48:38.something like 900 bogus colleges were closed. So obviously a lot of
:48:39. > :48:41.progress has been made on that. First, I think the government has
:48:42. > :48:46.been quite adamant it isn't going to take them out of the figures. There
:48:47. > :48:51.were discussions yesterday about it. The other thing of course is that,
:48:52. > :48:55.in theory, students are sort of a replenishing body. The net inflow
:48:56. > :48:59.and outflow should net off against each other every three years, so
:49:00. > :49:03.what is actually causing the increase in figures is people who
:49:04. > :49:12.stay on, and some of them stay on for jobs and studies. They can do
:49:13. > :49:20.that at the moment. EU students can. Non-ease you students cannot. --
:49:21. > :49:23.non-EU. To be frank, we have had a pretty clear signal that we need to
:49:24. > :49:26.do something about lowering immigration, so saying that one way
:49:27. > :49:31.we are going to do that is by not counting one type of immigration
:49:32. > :49:35.wouldn't wash very well. It isn't to say that we shouldn't do something
:49:36. > :49:40.about it, but just taking them out of the figures feels like a con. Do
:49:41. > :49:45.you feel that people concerned about immigration would regard a Chinese
:49:46. > :49:52.student coming to study at Imperial as an immigrant? I don't think that
:49:53. > :49:58.people are worried about it. They were worried about bogus colleges,
:49:59. > :50:02.of course. That could have been a way of illegal immigration. Yes. I
:50:03. > :50:06.don't think they are worried about genuine students coming in. One
:50:07. > :50:09.wants to see the numbers to understand those flows, but what is
:50:10. > :50:14.important is how the numbers are presented but what the government is
:50:15. > :50:18.targeting. To me, it makes no sense to have a target that focuses on a
:50:19. > :50:22.lot of students who are coming in to the benefit of our education system
:50:23. > :50:27.and economy, and I think what Theresa May should be trying to do
:50:28. > :50:31.is not to massage or distort the numbers, but looking again at this
:50:32. > :50:34.net immigration target and make sure she is targeting things that make
:50:35. > :50:43.sense for our economy and not have a target that causes her to pursue
:50:44. > :50:49.policies... Briefly, Erasmus, which has benefited many British and
:50:50. > :50:55.European students, I think 15,000 British students participated last
:50:56. > :51:00.year. Can we stay in that? Norway, Macedonia and Turkey are all part of
:51:01. > :51:04.that programme. So you think the answer is yes. We can do if we
:51:05. > :51:05.strike the right deal and have a proper adult negotiation. That
:51:06. > :51:08.should be part of it. Now there are already several
:51:09. > :51:10.political songs aiming to get into this year's Christmas singles
:51:11. > :51:13.chart, but a group of Labour MPs yesterday launched another -
:51:14. > :51:16.and they're showing a distinct lack of seasonal goodwill
:51:17. > :51:18.towards some of Britain's To the tune of Do They Know It's
:51:19. > :51:25.Christmas, their song names half a dozen companies they say
:51:26. > :51:27.are mistreating their staff by stripping them of Sunday
:51:28. > :51:31.pay and other perks following the increase
:51:32. > :51:34.to the minimum wage. The Labour MP who organised
:51:35. > :52:36.the recording is Siobhan McDonagh. She joins us now, as does
:52:37. > :52:47.the Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng. It looks like you took all these
:52:48. > :52:50.people hostage and made them saying. They did of their own volition
:52:51. > :52:54.because they want to talk about low pay and how people are being hit by
:52:55. > :52:59.the national with living wage and losing their other conditions. They
:53:00. > :53:02.are not perks. They signed up for double-time on working Sunday and
:53:03. > :53:05.bank holidays and there are a group of people out there who are angry
:53:06. > :53:09.that they have lived by the rules and not been treated right. That is
:53:10. > :53:19.right, regardless of the athletics, the message is quite strong. --
:53:20. > :53:24.aesthetics. Marks Spencer has removed premiums for working Sundays
:53:25. > :53:27.and anti-social hours. Tesco cut overtime pay, changing it from
:53:28. > :53:35.double to time and a half. B dropped extra pay for Sundays. Cafe
:53:36. > :53:41.near road no longer getting free lunch while on shift. I think it is
:53:42. > :53:45.worth complaining about. Having to do ovation before you share in a
:53:46. > :53:49.bonus isn't the most terrible thing. -- having to do probation. You
:53:50. > :53:56.appreciate that, with the national living wage, they are having to pay
:53:57. > :53:59.more money to more people, and these companies are not charities. They
:54:00. > :54:04.have to make money. They do, but they have to keep doing that. So you
:54:05. > :54:10.take away a free lunch while you are on shift? Or you don't pay people
:54:11. > :54:18.for their lunchtime. How much are you saving? How mean. They are well
:54:19. > :54:22.established companies. These people are good people and they get up and
:54:23. > :54:25.go to work everyday and, just like all of us, they have to pay their
:54:26. > :54:28.mortgage and look after their kids and it isn't right and it shouldn't
:54:29. > :54:33.be happening. The only reason this issue is being talked about on this
:54:34. > :54:38.programme is because of the video. Your gut and dined out on its desire
:54:39. > :54:43.to do something for the just about managing. -- your government dines
:54:44. > :54:47.out. And people losing the perks and conditions are just about managing
:54:48. > :54:52.and they are losing out. The government has taken hundreds of
:54:53. > :54:57.thousands of people out of tax. We have increased the personal tax
:54:58. > :55:00.allowance from 6020 ten to 12,000, so to say the government isn't doing
:55:01. > :55:07.right by people who are struggling is completely false. I hope that the
:55:08. > :55:10.boards of these companies will think about it, look again at their next
:55:11. > :55:17.board meeting and, if they don't look at it, Theresa May will look at
:55:18. > :55:22.closing these loopholes. These are well liked companies. They are great
:55:23. > :55:27.companies. Are you worried that this plays to the narrative that Labour
:55:28. > :55:34.is anti-business? Not that old IMS and new Labour as you get in the
:55:35. > :55:40.PLP. -- I am as new Labour as you get. I am doing this because we
:55:41. > :55:44.could find no other way to give voice to these people. Marks
:55:45. > :55:50.Spencer has had its problems recently but its profits last year
:55:51. > :55:54.were ?690 million. Now it is saying that it wants to removed premiums
:55:55. > :55:58.for working Sundays. When I worked as a student, you got more if you
:55:59. > :56:06.worked on a Sunday. Kingfisher, B finish, pre-tax profits of 436
:56:07. > :56:17.million in the first six months. Tesco, 71 million pre-tax profit in
:56:18. > :56:22.the first six months. Cafe Nero, 24 million in profit, up 8.5%, and now
:56:23. > :56:28.they say to their staff, you can't have a free lunch when they are on
:56:29. > :56:32.strict. It must cost peanuts. -- on shift. So you want to penalised
:56:33. > :56:37.successful companies? On the Sunday point, when you were a student, and
:56:38. > :56:44.I dread to think when that was... No need to get personal. Sundays were
:56:45. > :56:49.completely different. These people have a contract which gives them
:56:50. > :56:52.double-time on a Sunday. This group of people in Marks and Spencer have
:56:53. > :56:59.worked there since previous two 2004. They have done 30 years for
:57:00. > :57:07.the firm and they love the firm but they are upset it isn't doing right
:57:08. > :57:13.by them. -- 13 years. What is your position? I have sympathy with both
:57:14. > :57:17.positions. Do you know some companies that are doing this well?
:57:18. > :57:24.It is all very well to complain but we have record employment, record
:57:25. > :57:28.low unemployment. All those people who are going, some of them
:57:29. > :57:32.conditions, but pay is going up. Who are the companies you think are
:57:33. > :57:40.doing this well? A company off the top of my head is Pret. Their
:57:41. > :57:45.employer says, my staff are my bread and butter. There is no way I am
:57:46. > :57:52.going to do this to them. It is just about fairness. It isn't about
:57:53. > :57:55.anything bigger than that. Tesco has taken on 15,000 extra seasonal
:57:56. > :57:59.workers this Christmas, and maybe they are doing that because of this
:58:00. > :58:04.kind of environment. If you force them to carry on playing fields
:58:05. > :58:09.perks, they may not take on so many people. -- paying these perks. We
:58:10. > :58:14.are talking about people who already have contracts though. Witch when
:58:15. > :58:17.wages have been squeezed for some long, you would think good companies
:58:18. > :58:22.would want to look after their people. We have got record
:58:23. > :58:28.employment. There are more people working today in Britain than ever
:58:29. > :58:31.before. You can't sustain that by increasing wages all the time. This
:58:32. > :58:39.isn't about increasing wages. We have run out of time. RB Tory MPs
:58:40. > :58:47.going to produce one? I don't think the singing would be as good. You
:58:48. > :58:50.could do Pump Up The Jam. How long did that take you? Three days.
:58:51. > :58:55.The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:56. > :58:57.And I will be on BBC One tonight with Alan Johnson,
:58:58. > :59:00.Michael Portillo, Miranda Green, John Nicolson, Chas and Dave,
:59:01. > :59:03.and Brian Blessed for the final This Week of 2016, looking back
:59:04. > :59:05.MUSIC: Stand By Me by Ben E King