:00:36. > :00:37.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:38. > :00:40.Terror on the streets of Berlin as a lorry ploughs
:00:41. > :00:46.12 people are dead and many more seriously injured.
:00:47. > :00:49.German Chancellor Angela Merkel says it will be "particularly sickening"
:00:50. > :00:55.if the attack is proven to have been carried out by a refugee.
:00:56. > :00:58.Meanwhile in the Turkish capital Ankara, the Russian ambassador
:00:59. > :01:01.is shot dead by a policeman, apparently in protest at Russia's
:01:02. > :01:08.We speak to our security correspondent.
:01:09. > :01:10.Following a major riot at Birmingham prison,
:01:11. > :01:13.the Justice Secretary admits that solving problems in England's jails
:01:14. > :01:20.The Shadow Justice Secretary says the Government has "lost control".
:01:21. > :01:26.And, 2016 was quite a year for political news.
:01:27. > :01:42.And with us for the whole of the programme today are Guardian
:01:43. > :01:44.columnist Zoe Williams and the former editor
:01:45. > :01:47.of The Sun Kelvin MacKenzie - welcome to both of you.
:01:48. > :01:51.Now, let's start with those two major stories from last night -
:01:52. > :01:54.the shooting of the Russian ambassador to Turkey, and a major
:01:55. > :02:01.12 people were killed and nearly 50 injured
:02:02. > :02:03.when a lorry ploughed into a Christmas market
:02:04. > :02:09.German police have said it is a "probable terrorist
:02:10. > :02:15.He is said to be a Pakistani asylum seeker who entered
:02:16. > :02:21.Reports this morning suggest special forces have stormed a hangar
:02:22. > :02:23.at Berlin's Tempelhof Airport, where they believed
:02:24. > :02:26.the suspect had been living in a shelter before the attack.
:02:27. > :02:34.Let's talk to our correspondent, Damien McGuinness, in Berlin.
:02:35. > :02:42.Damian, give us the latest that you have on this attack. We've just had
:02:43. > :02:46.a statement from the interior minister here in Germany, Thomas de
:02:47. > :02:50.Maiziere, who has given us more details of the alleged attacker. He
:02:51. > :02:54.is a 23-year-old Pakistani citizen who came to Germany and was
:02:55. > :03:00.registered as crossing the border into Germany in December 2015, the
:03:01. > :03:03.31st of December. That was just after the high point of those
:03:04. > :03:09.migrants who came into the country last year. He then was registered in
:03:10. > :03:16.Berlin as requested asylum, but police say he did not finish the
:03:17. > :03:23.request process. So he was never actually accepted as an asylum
:03:24. > :03:26.seeker, let alone as a refugee. He then seemed to go off the radar.
:03:27. > :03:31.Police say even though they knew who this man was, we don't know what his
:03:32. > :03:34.name was because apparently it seems he changed his name many times. So
:03:35. > :03:39.the details about him are still very unclear. What the interior minister
:03:40. > :03:44.has just said, it's quite clear it was an attack. Each stopped short of
:03:45. > :03:47.saying it was a terror attack. He was asked that question a few
:03:48. > :03:51.minutes ago and he phrased that sentence very clearly because he
:03:52. > :03:56.said there is no evidence so far that so-called Islamic State is
:03:57. > :03:59.behind it. He's not ruling it out, of course, but he's waiting to find
:04:00. > :04:03.out more because of course this only happened last night and there's
:04:04. > :04:08.still a lot of confusion about what the cause was. But what we do know
:04:09. > :04:12.really is that Berlin and Germany is in shock. Now people are really
:04:13. > :04:14.trying to get to grips with what to do next because this of course is
:04:15. > :04:19.supposed to be a happy, festive season. There have been calls to
:04:20. > :04:22.close down the Christmas markets. The interior minister was clear in
:04:23. > :04:26.saying we need to carry on living our life and not by Dan to pressure
:04:27. > :04:32.from people who might want to change the lifestyle. -- and not bow down
:04:33. > :04:35.to pressure. What about Angela Merkel, she has given a brief
:04:36. > :04:38.statement in a press conference. There will be pressure on her
:04:39. > :04:42.because of the open door policy towards refugees. What she said was
:04:43. > :04:49.she was shocked and saddened by this event, but that it would have been,
:04:50. > :04:52.it would be particularly sickening if the perpetrator does to not be an
:04:53. > :04:56.asylum seeker. Someone who she put it has come to Germany looking for
:04:57. > :04:59.help. On the one hand it with the Mac a slap in the face for that sort
:05:00. > :05:03.of generous humanitarian gesture that so many Germans held out to
:05:04. > :05:07.migrants arriving here. But on the other hand it could be really bad
:05:08. > :05:11.news for her because of course that policy of letting in so many
:05:12. > :05:16.migrants and refugees last year and the beginning of this year was
:05:17. > :05:20.controversial in Germany. It's in the country. Half the country
:05:21. > :05:23.supported her, but the other half did so it's really divided Germany
:05:24. > :05:28.down the middle. The problem is now but we're still unclear exactly what
:05:29. > :05:34.the motivation of the attack was. But already some of Mrs Merkel's
:05:35. > :05:38.most ferocious critics on this issue have blamed her for the attack,
:05:39. > :05:41.effectively, in particularly the new anti-migrant alternative for Germany
:05:42. > :05:46.party. One of their leaders posted a very controversial tweet saying that
:05:47. > :05:49.Merkel was responsible for these deaths. You've been an ambassador
:05:50. > :05:57.for trying to score political points on the back of this tragedy. -- he
:05:58. > :06:02.has been lambasted. Now is being heavily refugee policy has to be
:06:03. > :06:05.re-looked at. But it is already changing because over the last few
:06:06. > :06:08.months we have already seen new measures being put into place which
:06:09. > :06:12.have meant numbers have gone down. So the sense of urgency of the
:06:13. > :06:15.migrant crisis has passed. The problem is that this attack could
:06:16. > :06:18.fire up the debate about whether it was a good thing or not, what
:06:19. > :06:20.happened over the last year. Thank you very much.
:06:21. > :06:22.Well, the attack in Berlin came only hours after another attack
:06:23. > :06:28.Russia's ambassador to Turkey was shot dead by a policeman
:06:29. > :06:30.as he gave a speech at an art gallery.
:06:31. > :06:35.Mevlut Mert Aydintas shot Andrei Karlov, apparently in protest
:06:36. > :06:41.The 22-year-old, who was a member of the Ankara riot police,
:06:42. > :06:46.These attacks are the latest in a string of atrocities
:06:47. > :06:53.In March, 32 people were killed in three separate bomb
:06:54. > :06:57.attacks in Brussels - two at the main airport
:06:58. > :07:05.On the 14th July, in the southern French city of Nice,
:07:06. > :07:08.86 civilians were killed when a French man of Tunisian origin
:07:09. > :07:12.drove a lorry in to crowds celebrating Bastille Day.
:07:13. > :07:17.On the 14th July, in the southern French city of Nice,
:07:18. > :07:20.86 civilians were killed when a French man of Tunisian origin
:07:21. > :07:22.drove a lorry in to crowds celebrating Bastille Day.
:07:23. > :07:27.A few days later a teenage Afghan refugee armed with an axe
:07:28. > :07:30.and a knife injured five people on a train in southern Germany.
:07:31. > :07:32.Shortly after that nine people were killed when a German-Iranian
:07:33. > :07:34.teenager opened fire in a shopping centre in Munich.
:07:35. > :07:38.On the 24th July, in Stuttgart, a woman was killed by a Syrian
:07:39. > :07:42.And on that same day, in Ansbach in southern Germany,
:07:43. > :07:44.15 people were injured after a Syrian refugee blew himself
:07:45. > :07:55.Joining me now is our security correspondent, Gordon Corera. A lot
:07:56. > :07:58.has been talked about, Christmas markets and the security. They are
:07:59. > :08:02.an ideal target for attackers where you have large crowds of people all
:08:03. > :08:08.gathered in a relatively small space. That's right. What we've seen
:08:09. > :08:12.in an event yesterday in Berlin seems to be two trends coming
:08:13. > :08:16.together. For a long time terrorist groups have wanted to target
:08:17. > :08:21.Christmas markets, even going back to the year 2000 and the early days
:08:22. > :08:25.of Al-Qaeda, the Strasbourg market was a target for them. There have
:08:26. > :08:28.been other attempts in the intervening years. Because they are
:08:29. > :08:32.a place where a lot of people gather, a soft target for those
:08:33. > :08:35.terrorist groups. And the symbolic value, the fact people are relaxing
:08:36. > :08:39.and it is the holiday time, it heightens the emotional impact. The
:08:40. > :08:44.second trend is this use of vehicles. In the past, it may have
:08:45. > :08:49.been explosives or gunmen. Now it's their cause and particularly trucks
:08:50. > :08:53.which we sort used in Nice earlier this year. The combination of those
:08:54. > :08:56.two is very difficult for the security and police forces to
:08:57. > :09:01.protect against. They have done work in Britain to try and defend against
:09:02. > :09:04.exactly that kind of scenario. But the European countries may not have
:09:05. > :09:09.had quite as many plans. Some have put lots of security around those
:09:10. > :09:12.markets, others left. I was in Strasbourg myself and they certainly
:09:13. > :09:16.did block of all the entrances so you couldn't easily drive any
:09:17. > :09:20.vehicles through. What has been a security response? The Metropolitan
:09:21. > :09:24.Police here have said that they're reviewing their plans as a
:09:25. > :09:30.precaution. They say there's no specific intelligence anything
:09:31. > :09:32.targeting London or the UK, but the Metropolitan Police are reviewing
:09:33. > :09:35.their plans in light of what's happened in Berlin. They have been
:09:36. > :09:40.worried about this kind of event for some time. They have been looking at
:09:41. > :09:44.crowded places for some time, doing things like surveillance tactics,
:09:45. > :09:49.putting in Lords. Most of them have tended to be around public
:09:50. > :09:53.buildings, government buildings, to try and prevent a vehicle borne
:09:54. > :09:57.explosives. Trucks pose a different challenge and that is perhaps where
:09:58. > :10:01.more of the focus will be no. Angela Merkel is being blamed in part by
:10:02. > :10:05.her political enemies, as we were hearing from Berlin. And at the same
:10:06. > :10:11.time, counterterror organisations are warning and have warned of a
:10:12. > :10:14.risk that refugees would be targeted by extremist recruiters.
:10:15. > :10:17.Interestingly, we just have of the interior minister in Germany hasn't
:10:18. > :10:21.dated that this is a terrorist attack. He saying they don't know
:10:22. > :10:26.what the motive was. -- the interior minister hasn't stated. I think
:10:27. > :10:30.they're being cautious, but we had Angela Merkel say that the
:10:31. > :10:35.assumption was it was a terrorist attack. All the trends are pointing
:10:36. > :10:38.that direction. The issue of refugees is toxic, politically,
:10:39. > :10:42.especially in Germany because of Angela Merkel's previous policy. We
:10:43. > :10:47.have seen indications of people trying to radicalise refugees. We
:10:48. > :10:52.also saw in the Paris attacks just over one year ago so-called Islamic
:10:53. > :11:00.State use refugee floats to try to send its operatives in and hide them
:11:01. > :11:03.admits that way. For that reason, I think this concern has been there
:11:04. > :11:07.and people are questioning if enough has been done to protect against
:11:08. > :11:13.this threat. Clearly in Germany in election time, after Angela Merkel
:11:14. > :11:17.took a lead of opening doors, that of a political issue. Let's talk
:11:18. > :11:24.about Turkey and the most brazen of assassinations last night, the
:11:25. > :11:28.Russian ambassador. Is this just dreadful -- is this just
:11:29. > :11:33.straightforward retaliation for Russia's involvement in Syria? I
:11:34. > :11:36.think if you take the killer's word at face value, yes, this was his
:11:37. > :11:41.anger at what he was seeing in Aleppo. His response to it was to
:11:42. > :11:45.kill the Russian ambassador. Russia being seen as having been
:11:46. > :11:48.responsible in some people'sI for much about violence. The Turkish
:11:49. > :11:53.authorities describe it as a provocation. Some people linked to
:11:54. > :11:58.the Turkish government are trying to link it to an opposition movement
:11:59. > :12:01.and say that it was an attempt to damage Turkey Russia relations,
:12:02. > :12:08.which were very low after Turkey shot down a Russian jet that. If you
:12:09. > :12:12.take the killer's word at face value, yes. He said it was due to
:12:13. > :12:15.the anger of events at Aleppo. Just another sign of how the conflict in
:12:16. > :12:21.Syria is rippling out in so many places, in so many countries, into
:12:22. > :12:23.Europe and beyond. Gordon Corera, thank you very much.
:12:24. > :12:28.Let's talk briefly about the politics of this.
:12:29. > :12:34.Already Angela Merkel's opponents are jumping on this alternative for
:12:35. > :12:40.Germany party, completely blaming her. Is that fair? Obviously not.
:12:41. > :12:43.Francis have the same problem and France hasn't had anything like an
:12:44. > :12:49.open door policy. The idea that you could insulate yourself against this
:12:50. > :12:58.kind of action by having entirely closed borders I think is sort of
:12:59. > :13:06.deliberately misleading and demoted. The plain fact is that these attacks
:13:07. > :13:09.often happen from radicalised Muslims who are second generation to
:13:10. > :13:12.a country anyway. So it's not really relevant whether their refugees or
:13:13. > :13:19.not. The relevant is that you've got a radicalisation, the way to prevent
:13:20. > :13:24.radicalisation is relevant. If you want to talk about preventing their
:13:25. > :13:29.happening, the global political situation is relevant. But the idea
:13:30. > :13:32.that you can say, OK, we've erected these borders and therefore will
:13:33. > :13:38.never be victims of attack is not relevant. Doesn't it inflame the
:13:39. > :13:42.situation, Kelvin MacKenzie? We can show you tweets, one from Nigel
:13:43. > :13:48.Farage where he says it would be the legacy of Angela Merkel's open-door
:13:49. > :13:53.policy. And Brendan Cox, the husband of the murdered MP, Jo Cox, saying
:13:54. > :13:57.you can't blame politicians for the actions of extremists because it's a
:13:58. > :14:01.slippery slope. I want towards Nigel Farage's view in the sense that it
:14:02. > :14:07.is a legacy for Merkel, it might be the only one. But the idea that --
:14:08. > :14:11.it won't be the only one. But the idea that a million people come from
:14:12. > :14:14.a dangerous war-torn area, you're bound to think that you might have
:14:15. > :14:20.more violence in that a million people than you might in any other
:14:21. > :14:24.area. We can have a legitimate and academic discussion about it. If I
:14:25. > :14:28.am the mother and father, or I am any kind of family relatives of
:14:29. > :14:34.those people who are being killed by a truck driving at 40 mph into them,
:14:35. > :14:43.I don't think it would be quite so sophisticated. Calvin, on that basis
:14:44. > :14:48.all refugees come from a war-torn area, otherwise they're not proper
:14:49. > :14:52.refugees. Are they proper refugees, that is the question? Let me talk.
:14:53. > :14:58.I'm just answering your question. Do you know the answer? Let her talk. A
:14:59. > :15:01.minute ago you said they'd come from a war-torn area and are bound to be
:15:02. > :15:08.violent. Now you're saying they haven't. Some have and some haven't.
:15:09. > :15:12.You can't have it both ways. The point is some are second generation.
:15:13. > :15:17.They waited necessarily come from war-torn areas. This particular
:15:18. > :15:20.killer, allegedly, the Germans, have you noticed how clever the German
:15:21. > :15:26.politicians are - it was the same about trying to dampen down the
:15:27. > :15:31.whole thing in Kalou. This particular guy appears to have come
:15:32. > :15:34.here to kill and he has succeeded. If I'm a family member, I hate this
:15:35. > :15:37.whole thing. We will find out no doubt as developments unfold.
:15:38. > :15:41.Now, last Friday saw what has been described as one of the worst riots
:15:42. > :15:44.in a British prison for more than 25 years.
:15:45. > :15:47.Yesterday Justice Secretary Liz Truss was summoned to the Commons
:15:48. > :15:49.to explain what happened in the Category B prison
:15:50. > :15:52.in Birmingham, and how violence then spilled over to Hull after some
:15:53. > :15:55.inmates were moved to the jail there that evening.
:15:56. > :15:58.She told MPs that staff shortages and the drug and violence problems
:15:59. > :16:01.gripping prisons in England and Wales would last for months.
:16:02. > :16:09.Here's a flavour from yesterday's statement to parliament.
:16:10. > :16:12.Levels of violence are too high in our prisons.
:16:13. > :16:19.We also have very concerning levels of self harm and deaths in custody.
:16:20. > :16:22.That's why we are reforming our prisons to be safe
:16:23. > :16:24.and purposeful places, and taking swift action to deal
:16:25. > :16:33.The Secretary of State has a prison crisis on her hands,
:16:34. > :16:35.and it would be helpful if she finally admitted this
:16:36. > :16:43.The riots at the privately-run Birmingham prison on Friday has been
:16:44. > :16:45.described as probably the most serious riots in a Category B
:16:46. > :16:51.Nothing that happened in my constituency
:16:52. > :16:59.The Independent monitoring board report on HMP Birmingham found that
:17:00. > :17:01.staff we sourcing constraints gave cause for concern and there
:17:02. > :17:04.was a lack of capacity to run the full prison regime.
:17:05. > :17:06.We've already heard about the dramatic rise
:17:07. > :17:08.in psychoactive drug use, mobile phone use and indeed
:17:09. > :17:13.I'm told by my local prison officers this is because the levels of prison
:17:14. > :17:21.Robert Nicholson, the Prison Officers' Association representative
:17:22. > :17:23.in Hull described the situation at the weekend as a powder
:17:24. > :17:32.It was said to be on the brink of riot.
:17:33. > :17:38.Prison officers tell me they were afraid to go to work.
:17:39. > :17:40.Two thirds of our prisons are overcrowded.
:17:41. > :17:42.We've seen disturbances that many prisons, not just Birmingham,
:17:43. > :17:48.And the level of suicide in our prisons is the highest that
:17:49. > :17:57.And we've seen very little remorse from the Secretary of State today.
:17:58. > :18:03.Well, I have been very clear about the issues we have
:18:04. > :18:09.Since I secured this role in July I've been focused
:18:10. > :18:13.on dealing with them, making sure that we make our prisons
:18:14. > :18:16.safer, making sure that we invest in those staff, making sure
:18:17. > :18:19.we invest in mental health facilities in our prisons to deal
:18:20. > :18:28.We asked the Ministry of Justice if a minister
:18:29. > :18:34.However, we are joined by the Shadow Secretary of State
:18:35. > :18:46.Good afternoon. You told parliament yesterday there was now a crisis in
:18:47. > :18:51.the prison system. What you think has caused the crisis? This is a
:18:52. > :18:56.crisis that has brewed in the last few weeks or months. This has been a
:18:57. > :19:05.long time coming. How many years? If you look in 2010, since then, the
:19:06. > :19:09.government cut front line prison staff by 6000 that plays a big part
:19:10. > :19:13.what is a crisis. There are a record number of assaults on prison staff
:19:14. > :19:18.and violence is out of control in prisons. As you said earlier, in the
:19:19. > :19:22.package, it's the most serious category B prison riot for more than
:19:23. > :19:28.a quarter of a century if we think back to the Strangeways riots. You
:19:29. > :19:32.are blaming conservatives for cutting officers and the coalition
:19:33. > :19:36.government since 2010, and that is the sole cause of the problems we
:19:37. > :19:42.are seeing? It's not the sole cause, but it is significant that 6000
:19:43. > :19:45.fewer front line prison staff are present. We have a crisis in terms
:19:46. > :19:52.of understaffed prisons, overcrowded prisons. There are a number of
:19:53. > :19:56.factors involved. But this has been decades in the making. Some of the
:19:57. > :20:01.blame must go back to the Labour governments before 2010. If you talk
:20:02. > :20:04.about issues of overcrowding, sentencing, mental health, drugs
:20:05. > :20:09.problems and cutting officers, this has been a long time coming. We have
:20:10. > :20:14.to have an open mind about how to solve this prison crisis going
:20:15. > :20:19.forward. That means questioning lots of the ways that prisons are run,
:20:20. > :20:22.both in relation to people with mental health problems, in relation
:20:23. > :20:27.to the weight that prisoners on short sentences are treated in
:20:28. > :20:31.relation to staffing levels and in relation to rehabilitation. To
:20:32. > :20:33.protect society we need rehabilitation to work.
:20:34. > :20:39.Rehabilitation costs less than reoffending. The prisoners deserve
:20:40. > :20:44.some of the blame for rioting. They are in jail to be punished. It isn't
:20:45. > :20:50.meant to be a pleasant experience, in that sense. Are they entitled to
:20:51. > :20:54.much better conditions? Can I had something? There's a salient point
:20:55. > :21:04.is that this is a private jail. This was outsourced to G4S. As I made
:21:05. > :21:09.clear in Parliament. Please ignore the reactions from Kelvin. When a
:21:10. > :21:12.private contractor comes in to undercut the private sector is
:21:13. > :21:16.because they pay the staff less, and that is because they are less
:21:17. > :21:18.well-trained and there is a huge body of evidence that the public
:21:19. > :21:22.sector might not be good at anything but they are good at staff
:21:23. > :21:25.management and managing the prisoners they have got.
:21:26. > :21:29.Undertrained prison officers are not so good at it. What happens then is
:21:30. > :21:33.that the prisoners feel under threat from one another and I heard
:21:34. > :21:36.anecdotally in Birmingham that the staff are frightened of the
:21:37. > :21:46.prisoners which is a woeful situation. Hardly a surprise. It is
:21:47. > :21:48.a surprise. Is it in those situations? The prison system
:21:49. > :21:51.private -- prides itself on good management and no member of staff
:21:52. > :21:54.should be frightened. I wondered how long it would be before we'd go on
:21:55. > :22:00.to the private sector. The truth of the matter is that these are vile
:22:01. > :22:06.pigs who are being allowed to get drugs and the like flown in or
:22:07. > :22:12.brought in by their family. How are they managing to do it? I am
:22:13. > :22:17.absolutely in favour of hiring more staff, and if it can be proved...
:22:18. > :22:21.And if the cuts turn out to be the reason, but let's not worry about
:22:22. > :22:25.whose fault it is, these are the vile pigs who are in there in the
:22:26. > :22:30.first place. So in the end it doesn't matter who is running it? Do
:22:31. > :22:34.you agree? That it wouldn't make any difference ending the privatisation
:22:35. > :22:37.of jails? I raised the point yesterday in Parliament and not
:22:38. > :22:41.everyone was pleased, but I think the government needs to consider the
:22:42. > :22:48.issue of whether it is correct for profit-making companies to be making
:22:49. > :22:52.money out of society 's ills and the incarceration of human beings. The
:22:53. > :22:57.prison in Birmingham had the most assaults on staff of any prison in
:22:58. > :23:00.the whole of the UK. So that's an ideological point you are making
:23:01. > :23:04.about privatisation or nationalising or putting it into the public
:23:05. > :23:08.sector. Is that really the critical point? You can take a sideswipe at
:23:09. > :23:12.the general policy of the Conservative government, but is it
:23:13. > :23:16.the root cause of what is going on in Birmingham jail? It needs to be
:23:17. > :23:20.considered. But different rules apply to private prisons. I was
:23:21. > :23:24.pleased yesterday when Liz Truss said in response about whether she
:23:25. > :23:29.was happy with the fact that private prisons don't have to disclose
:23:30. > :23:33.staffing levels, she said she would do something about it and I hope she
:23:34. > :23:39.does. What would you do differently? You are against Private prisons and
:23:40. > :23:43.G4S, what would you do differently to reduce overcrowding? We need to
:23:44. > :23:48.have an open mind. An open mind is fine, but it's not a significant
:23:49. > :23:55.policy. This is a situation that will not be solved easily. So you
:23:56. > :23:59.haven't got any solutions? Well we wouldn't have cut 6000 front line
:24:00. > :24:03.prison staff. We wouldn't have started sticking the boot into the
:24:04. > :24:08.prison officers Association. Perhaps the government can learn from the
:24:09. > :24:13.people going to work every day in fear of being punched, spat at and
:24:14. > :24:18.attacked. Absolutely, but let's come to some of the other potential
:24:19. > :24:23.policies. Would you like to see less overcrowding? Fewer people going to
:24:24. > :24:28.jail? Will we certainly want to see less overcrowding. The point I want
:24:29. > :24:32.to make is that people on shorter sentences are going into prison
:24:33. > :24:35.without drug addictions and coming out of prison with drug addictions.
:24:36. > :24:39.They are coming out of prison more likely to commit serious crimes and
:24:40. > :24:43.when they went in. That's not good for the individual prisoners or
:24:44. > :24:48.society. We need to look at the way shorter sentences work. It is true
:24:49. > :24:51.about the drugs but politicians are obsessed with short sentences. The
:24:52. > :24:56.problem is long sentences and this has been going on since the Labour
:24:57. > :25:00.government. Sentences have crept up and judges are under pressure to
:25:01. > :25:03.make sentences harsher and you get a huge number of prisoners. We have
:25:04. > :25:08.the highest number of prisoners than we have had in my career. I think
:25:09. > :25:14.it's good news and we should staff up prisons so these people who are
:25:15. > :25:18.beating up our prison officers, which is an absolute disgrace,
:25:19. > :25:24.should be protected, and if they won't be protected, there can be
:25:25. > :25:29.jails where these pigs are locked up 24 hours a day. One of the problems
:25:30. > :25:33.is liberal politicians believing they are being nice and giving them
:25:34. > :25:36.short sentences. But repeat offences are the big problems and you won't
:25:37. > :25:42.stop repeat offences if you lock people up in those conditions. There
:25:43. > :25:46.is a percentage of society who wants them to have a bad time all day and
:25:47. > :25:51.all night. Rehabilitation does not work for most of these people. I am
:25:52. > :25:52.calling time on this. Thank you very much, Richard.
:25:53. > :25:54.The Scottish Government has today published its plan to keep that part
:25:55. > :25:56.of the United Kingdom inside the single market,
:25:57. > :25:59.even if England, Wales and Northern Ireland end up outside.
:26:00. > :26:01.It would mean that Scots could still work throughout the EU,
:26:02. > :26:04.other European citizens could live and work in Scotland
:26:05. > :26:06.and there would be no restrictions on trade between Scotland
:26:07. > :26:09.First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has been outlining
:26:10. > :26:21.There are already a range of asymmetric
:26:22. > :26:24.in operation within the EU and single market framework.
:26:25. > :26:26.The solution we seek for Scotland would be different in detail
:26:27. > :26:29.and scale to many of these arrangements, but not
:26:30. > :26:32.Second, the UK Government already appears open to a flexible Brexit
:26:33. > :26:34.approach in relation to different sectors of the economy.
:26:35. > :26:37.It would also be necessary to take a flexible approach in relation
:26:38. > :26:47.There is no good reason whatsoever why such flexibility should not
:26:48. > :26:49.Lastly, and perhaps most fundamentally, everything
:26:50. > :26:54.about Brexit would be difficult and unprecedented.
:26:55. > :26:57.The negotiations ahead would be characterised by a need to find
:26:58. > :27:02.practical solutions to a range of complex issues.
:27:03. > :27:09.I'm joined now from Holyrood by our correspondent, Glenn Campbell.
:27:10. > :27:15.Under quite fierce questioning, Nicola Sturgeon said it was
:27:16. > :27:20.achievable if political will was there, but is the political will
:27:21. > :27:23.there? Is there any evidence in Westminster or EU member states that
:27:24. > :27:28.the will is there to give Scotland a special arrangement? Nicola Sturgeon
:27:29. > :27:33.spoke on the phone with Theresa May yesterday and Mrs May confirmed that
:27:34. > :27:36.she would take seriously the proposals that the Scottish
:27:37. > :27:42.Government have published, although Gap contrasts -- that contrast with
:27:43. > :27:46.comments made by Philip Hammond in Edinburgh when he said it was not a
:27:47. > :27:52.realistic prospect for Scotland to have a special deal to stay in the
:27:53. > :27:57.single market of the rest of the UK was coming out. So the prospect of
:27:58. > :28:03.the UK adopting these proposals, I think, are slim. That does not mean
:28:04. > :28:06.they are not prepared to have a discussion about, for instance,
:28:07. > :28:11.further devolution to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government
:28:12. > :28:15.because, of course, as the UK leaves the European Union, powers will be
:28:16. > :28:19.repatriated and it might be that some of those come here to Holyrood
:28:20. > :28:25.rather than Westminster. If Scotland is in the single market and the rest
:28:26. > :28:29.of the UK is not and is outside of the customs union, won't that mean a
:28:30. > :28:34.hard border between England and Scotland and customs posts? The
:28:35. > :28:37.border arrangements between England and Scotland would be one of the big
:28:38. > :28:41.questions to be addressed. Nicola Sturgeon believes that the
:28:42. > :28:49.difficulties that might be presented can be overcome if there is the
:28:50. > :28:52.political will to do so. On the question of immigration, she thinks
:28:53. > :28:57.the Common travel area through the UK and Ireland could be maintained
:28:58. > :29:03.and it would be for the rest of the UK to make their checks on EU
:29:04. > :29:09.citizens who have come to the UK through Scotland at the point where
:29:10. > :29:13.they seek employment or benefits or seek access to housing. She thinks
:29:14. > :29:17.that a solution can be found between Scotland and England on because the
:29:18. > :29:20.UK Government and the Irish government have made clear their
:29:21. > :29:25.intention to find a solution for the border in Ireland. But doesn't it
:29:26. > :29:28.make it more likely there will be another independence referendum if
:29:29. > :29:34.she pursues this separate deal? I think there are two ways of looking
:29:35. > :29:38.at what Nicola Sturgeon put forward. Today she wouldn't -- presents it as
:29:39. > :29:43.a serious attempt to find a compromise on Brexit because 62% of
:29:44. > :29:46.Scots voted to remain. Some of her rivals say in essence what she's
:29:47. > :29:52.doing is making impossible demands of the UK Government, knowing in the
:29:53. > :29:54.end they will be rejected to justify that second referendum on
:29:55. > :30:00.independence. When Nicola Sturgeon started today she did remind people
:30:01. > :30:03.that her view is that the best option for Scotland is independence
:30:04. > :30:05.within the EU, and that remains ultimately the SNP goal. Thank you
:30:06. > :30:10.very much. Now to the latest part in our series
:30:11. > :30:14.looking at the issues faced by key government departments
:30:15. > :30:15.in the run-up to Brexit. We've already covered
:30:16. > :30:17.the Home Office, the environment, For today's tracker we've
:30:18. > :30:21.turned our attention to another key government department facing some
:30:22. > :30:23.big questions over its role in the post Brexit landscape,
:30:24. > :30:31.the Department for Health. With around 130,000 EU nationals
:30:32. > :30:34.working in the health and social care sector,
:30:35. > :30:37.politicians and their civil servants in the Department of Health will be
:30:38. > :30:41.heavily involved in negotiations over immigration policy,
:30:42. > :30:43.and particularly what system of work permits will be available for health
:30:44. > :30:48.workers post Brexit. The EU forces each member to accept
:30:49. > :30:51.each other's medics and nurses Will Brexit allow Britain to demand
:30:52. > :30:59.higher standards of qualification Or will reciprocal
:31:00. > :31:04.recognition continue? The UK already has its own
:31:05. > :31:07.regulatory body for licensing new drugs, although many companies
:31:08. > :31:10.prefer to go through the European Medicines Agency that
:31:11. > :31:13.covers all EU markets. If we leave that, some campaigners
:31:14. > :31:17.believe drugs could be made One of the more visible benefits
:31:18. > :31:26.to be due membership is the European Health Insurance Card
:31:27. > :31:27.which guarantees free health care when abroad,
:31:28. > :31:31.and brings down the cost Will a new deal being negotiated,
:31:32. > :31:35.or will the UK form a series of bilateral agreements
:31:36. > :31:38.with major destinations? The EU currently coordinates
:31:39. > :31:42.responses to pandemics through its European Centre
:31:43. > :31:44.for Disease Control and Prevention. Will we continue to work
:31:45. > :31:48.with the agency after Brexit? And, if so, what we have
:31:49. > :31:51.more access than Norway and Switzerland, which work
:31:52. > :31:54.with it but do not make decisions? Currently NHS procurement has
:31:55. > :32:00.to follow EU mandated standards, which many believe
:32:01. > :32:03.leaves it uncompetitive. Will the new legislation
:32:04. > :32:09.after Brexit allow for greater efficiencies, freeing up money
:32:10. > :32:13.for patient treatment? These are just some of the issues
:32:14. > :32:15.Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and his team have on their plates
:32:16. > :32:19.as the government moves ever closer to trigger an Article 50,
:32:20. > :32:21.and firing the starting gun on our exit from
:32:22. > :32:29.the EU by next March. To discuss all that,
:32:30. > :32:31.we're joined by Andrew Lansley, the Health Secretary
:32:32. > :32:43.from 2010 to 2012. The NHS relies heavily on EU
:32:44. > :32:47.nationals, and there's been a lot of discussion about it. Surely not even
:32:48. > :32:52.the most hardened Lever would begrudge those who come here to look
:32:53. > :32:55.after our sick when it comes to freedom of movement and immigration
:32:56. > :32:59.controls? This is one of the central issues for the health service and
:33:00. > :33:03.life science companies. The first thing they say is we want access to
:33:04. > :33:08.the best people, and the number of people we need. Because we're
:33:09. > :33:11.talking about 10,000 doctors, 20,000 nurses, 90,000 people in the care
:33:12. > :33:17.sector from elsewhere in the European Union. And Brexit I was a
:33:18. > :33:21.Remainder, but the Brexiteers are pretty clear about this. They say
:33:22. > :33:25.it's not necessarily about numbers, it's about taking back control. If
:33:26. > :33:32.we want doctors and nurses from abroad, if we want Filipino nurses,
:33:33. > :33:37.that they can save nurses are on the shortage list for the migration
:33:38. > :33:42.committee so we can recruit nurses from all over the world. They would
:33:43. > :33:45.say it's possible to do this thing, it just doesn't mean necessarily
:33:46. > :33:48.that immigration numbers go down. And if immigration numbers don't go
:33:49. > :33:53.down, that may cause another row amongst the people who did support
:33:54. > :33:56.the idea of leaving. They did want to see fewer immigrants coming.
:33:57. > :34:00.Let's take those numbers in the care industry and in terms of doctors and
:34:01. > :34:04.nurses. Would it not be better if we trained British workers to do the
:34:05. > :34:09.same job? Clearly, that would take some time. Of course. It does take a
:34:10. > :34:12.long time. When I was secretary of state I wanted more emergency
:34:13. > :34:16.doctors. They just weren't in this country. We had to go abroad. How
:34:17. > :34:22.long do you think you can take to build up the numbers? We are talking
:34:23. > :34:26.a 10-year timeline for doctors. For nurses, five years. I'm puzzled
:34:27. > :34:32.about this. Why is it we can't train at our own doctors? It's troubling,
:34:33. > :34:38.isn't it? This has been an issue for 25 years. Why is it? The issue, you
:34:39. > :34:43.understand, is about the role of the BMA in particular. We have
:34:44. > :34:47.constraints on the number of British doctors, but we have the most
:34:48. > :34:51.expensive doctors in Europe. For a German doctor to come and work the
:34:52. > :34:56.weekend in Britain, it is highly attractive. When you say
:34:57. > :35:02.constraints... What about agency fees? We do pay doctors more, as it
:35:03. > :35:10.happens. Why do we explode... The main problem is the issue. We could
:35:11. > :35:18.train more doctors. Don't talk over each other. The Labour government
:35:19. > :35:21.just before 2010 set up new medical schools, so we were in the process
:35:22. > :35:24.of increasing the number of doctors in training. But the constraint was
:35:25. > :35:30.that the number of training places available in hospitals. That was a
:35:31. > :35:34.key problem. There would be a big gap if we lost a significant number
:35:35. > :35:38.of doctors and nurses and care staff I'm hopeful that we went. Were
:35:39. > :35:43.hopeful that the UK won't lose them. What kind of permit system, let's
:35:44. > :35:47.say there was a permit system that came into play for EU nationals,
:35:48. > :35:49.what would you like to see so that we can still have this doctors and
:35:50. > :35:55.nurses that the country needs? It's going to look like BT to visas.
:35:56. > :36:01.Something of that order. -- it's going to look likely tier two visas.
:36:02. > :36:06.I worked in America and you had to go through some hoops and jumps, but
:36:07. > :36:11.it was in the end of the world. It could make it more difficult. It is
:36:12. > :36:14.more difficult relative to working elsewhere in Europe. The catheter is
:36:15. > :36:18.different in the sense that the care workers have been actively
:36:19. > :36:22.recruited. -- the care sector is different. The fact is that people
:36:23. > :36:27.who live here and have families he cannot afford to work as care
:36:28. > :36:30.workers, least of all in London. 80% of London workers have been
:36:31. > :36:35.recruited from the Philippines or from Kenya, or somewhere other than
:36:36. > :36:39.the UK. The point is, that is just creating a low-wage economy within a
:36:40. > :36:43.particular sector. To say we need to protect that as a Visa requirement,
:36:44. > :36:47.will put you had to have everybody who ever said immigration is
:36:48. > :36:51.bringing down wages. If we move onto the reciprocal arrangement at the
:36:52. > :36:54.moment that means professional qualifications are recognised here
:36:55. > :36:59.and between the European Union states, so you can have a nurse one
:37:00. > :37:04.EU member state, her qualifications are recognised here and vice versa,
:37:05. > :37:08.should we remain part of the scheme? Most of the things we've been
:37:09. > :37:11.talking about here, including the reciprocal health care arrangements,
:37:12. > :37:16.I think actually varies, on the face of it, a good reason on both sides
:37:17. > :37:20.to come to an agreement on it. But it's never going to be quite that
:37:21. > :37:27.straightforward because health, like some of the other issues you've been
:37:28. > :37:31.discussing in this series is going to get complicated by the point at
:37:32. > :37:34.which the Europeans say, hang on a minute, you can't have all the
:37:35. > :37:39.benefits of being in the European Union without meeting the
:37:40. > :37:41.obligations. Is not the problem, Kelvin MacKenzie, that if we are
:37:42. > :37:47.trying to opt back in or maintain reciprocal arrangements, not just in
:37:48. > :37:49.health, but in other areas, on the one side there will be people who
:37:50. > :37:53.say we're not leaving the EU, and others will save you can't have
:37:54. > :38:00.everything the way it was because you've left. I don't know. The UK
:38:01. > :38:05.economy is a fantastic economy. It's creating loads of jobs. But it's not
:38:06. > :38:10.that simple, is it? The demand to come here is far outstripping the
:38:11. > :38:14.number of drops we've got to supply. I'm not worried for a single second
:38:15. > :38:18.that we aren't going to be able to fill the jobs required. There may be
:38:19. > :38:22.difficulty on the management side. I couldn't care less. I'm going to let
:38:23. > :38:25.Zoe Williams finished. That doesn't answer the question at all because
:38:26. > :38:29.what we're talking about its reciprocal arrangements which cover
:38:30. > :38:33.a huge amount, including legislation and the regulatory framework that
:38:34. > :38:37.allows us to cooperate with Europe. We've got a massive job of work to
:38:38. > :38:41.do here to either establish our own framework or buy back into the EU.
:38:42. > :38:45.We've got to stop talking about this as though it were only an
:38:46. > :38:51.immigration issue. I think very is right. Let me give you an example.
:38:52. > :38:54.We've just finished the process of negotiating the medical devices
:38:55. > :38:57.regulations across Europe. The best people for doing this are the
:38:58. > :39:00.medicines and health care regulatory agency in Britain, their leaders.
:39:01. > :39:06.We've got the best regulators in Europe. So there is an obvious
:39:07. > :39:10.negotiable arrangement that says we're still in this thing. Wearing
:39:11. > :39:15.clinical trials because we want to have European clinical trials. We
:39:16. > :39:18.are willing to be part of the regulatory system, and they would
:39:19. > :39:23.want us to be part of the regulatory system. Why wouldn't other European
:39:24. > :39:28.countries want us to continue? Because at some point politics will
:39:29. > :39:34.interfere. That's my worry. You don't know that, though. Let's talk
:39:35. > :39:37.about European health insurance cards. When you go abroad you take
:39:38. > :39:42.them with you and it gives you access to the health abroad in other
:39:43. > :39:47.EU member states. And the government pays. You would still want to be
:39:48. > :39:50.part of a scheme? From the public's point of view, we would. Of course.
:39:51. > :39:54.But first we need to know whether the government wants to be a good it
:39:55. > :40:01.will cost than 600 million per year to be part of this thing. Secondly,
:40:02. > :40:04.how does that work? If you travel to Spain, you can have this card that
:40:05. > :40:09.means we will pay for your health care. If you travel to Morocco,
:40:10. > :40:14.we're not paying for you. On what basis is the British government
:40:15. > :40:18.going to discriminate? On the basis of maybe a reciprocal arrangement.
:40:19. > :40:24.If a Moroccan comes to Britain, we'll pay for his health care. The
:40:25. > :40:28.newspapers today so we 30 million light on what is being paid for four
:40:29. > :40:31.people coming here. We're not that great. We need to get better at
:40:32. > :40:35.making sure that people whose governments do pay for them to be
:40:36. > :40:39.here to pay. In that sense, do you think that these details, then
:40:40. > :40:46.details to a lot of people vote, that this may get lost in what will
:40:47. > :40:53.be a very big negotiation on Brexit? Dialogue going to be 1,000,001
:40:54. > :40:59.problems that face us exiting. -- there are going to be one problems.
:41:00. > :41:04.They were all created by humans and will be solved by humans. When
:41:05. > :41:09.people come over here they get free health. The politics of going to be
:41:10. > :41:12.dreadful. Andrew, thank you for coming in. I will have two and this
:41:13. > :41:16.discussion because I have some important breaking news following on
:41:17. > :41:18.from the attack of the truck being driven and killing 12 people in
:41:19. > :41:22.Berlin. The German police believe they have
:41:23. > :41:30.arrested the wrong man after the attack. This German police think the
:41:31. > :41:33.man arrested as a suspect in the attack on the Burling Christmas
:41:34. > :41:42.market was not the actual perpetrator. That is from a German
:41:43. > :41:47.newspaper. "We Have the wrong man", said a senior police chief, and
:41:48. > :41:51.therefore a new situation. Presumably that means the true
:41:52. > :41:55.perpetrator is still armed and at large and can cause fresh damage.
:41:56. > :42:07.Let me tell you again this is from a German newspaper. This is from Die
:42:08. > :42:09.Welt newspaper. For us political hacks it's often
:42:10. > :42:17.been hard to know where to look. In a moment we'll be
:42:18. > :42:19.pondering whether 2017 has But, first, let's look back
:42:20. > :42:23.at a remarkable year in politics. If we can get a good deal,
:42:24. > :42:29.I'll take that deal. With good will, with
:42:30. > :42:31.hard work we can get I will go to Parliament and
:42:32. > :42:35.propose that the British people The Work and Pensions Secretary,
:42:36. > :42:46.Iain Duncan Smith, I don't want to resign,
:42:47. > :42:53.but I'm resigning because I think Rewriting history!
:42:54. > :42:58.Rewriting history! All I wanted to do today was get out
:42:59. > :43:02.and do some gardening. Do you accept that this could become
:43:03. > :43:04.something of a crisis? We were getting prediction that
:43:05. > :43:18.Labour was going to lose councils. Sadiq Khan is elected
:43:19. > :43:25.as the new Mayor of London. And the UK is going to be
:43:26. > :43:37.in the back of the queue. Britain would be permanently poorer
:43:38. > :43:41.if we left the European Union. The material slowdown in growth,
:43:42. > :43:44.the notable increase in inflation. I think the people in this country
:43:45. > :43:49.have had enough of experts. Good evening, and welcome to Wembley
:43:50. > :43:58.and the Great Debate. But the benefits far
:43:59. > :44:05.outweigh any costs. And if we vote Leave
:44:06. > :44:08.and take back control, I believe that this Thursday
:44:09. > :44:11.could be our country's The Labour MP Jo Cox is killed
:44:12. > :44:18.and her West Yorkshire constituency. On that day, our lives
:44:19. > :44:24.changed forever. She was an amazing woman
:44:25. > :44:27.who was very widely She fought for her values and her
:44:28. > :44:44.beliefs, and she died for them. The British people have spoken
:44:45. > :44:48.and the answer is we're out. I think the country requires
:44:49. > :45:00.British leadership to take You brought down David Cameron,
:45:01. > :45:16.then you brought down Boris Johnson. Some people are saying
:45:17. > :45:24.that you are a kind I am therefore withdrawing from the
:45:25. > :45:30.leadership election. But I wish Theresa May the very greatest
:45:31. > :45:38.success. The government I lead will be driven not by the interests of
:45:39. > :45:41.the privileged few, but by yours. We know she is a difficult woman, but
:45:42. > :45:47.you and I used to work for Margaret Thatcher. I had no confidence in his
:45:48. > :45:51.leadership and he dismissed me from the Shadow Cabinet. I believe I have
:45:52. > :45:58.served in the best way I can, and today I have to go. Jeremy Corbyn is
:45:59. > :46:10.elected as leader of the Labour Party. I express more sorrow, regret
:46:11. > :46:14.and apology than you may ever know. After just 18 days in charge, it's
:46:15. > :46:19.reported that Diane James has quit as leader of Ukip. I will be
:46:20. > :46:24.withdrawing my application to become leader of Ukip and I am withdrawing
:46:25. > :46:34.myself from Ukip. I've made my decision but I will put my name
:46:35. > :46:38.forward to be leader of Ukip. There's never been a US presidential
:46:39. > :46:46.campaign quite like it. We will make America great again! They have just
:46:47. > :46:52.called Florida for Donald Trump. I'm sorry that we did not win this
:46:53. > :47:02.election. I've just received a call from Secretary Clinton.
:47:03. > :47:15.Brexit means Brexit. Brexit means Brexit. We will make Brexit as it
:47:16. > :47:24.stands. Guardians of our constitutions, or enemies of the
:47:25. > :47:28.people? It is a good morning. With a calm and measured approach, this
:47:29. > :47:31.government will honour the will of the British people and secure the
:47:32. > :47:35.right deal that will make a success of Brexit, the EU and for the world.
:47:36. > :47:38.So, that was a snapshot of some of the remarkable stories
:47:39. > :47:47.In January, all eyes will be on the Supreme Court.
:47:48. > :47:52.Its verdict on who has the right to trigger Article 50 -
:47:53. > :47:55.parliament or the government - is expected to be announced
:47:56. > :48:00.And at the end of the month Donald Trump will be sworn
:48:01. > :48:02.in as the 45th President of the United States.
:48:03. > :48:04.We'll also have a new President of the European
:48:05. > :48:12.Martin Schultz has already announced he won't serve a third term.
:48:13. > :48:15.In February, the other 27 members of the EU will meet
:48:16. > :48:17.at an informal Summit to discuss their negotiation
:48:18. > :48:23.Theresa May has promised to trigger Article 50
:48:24. > :48:25.by the end of the month, which will officially
:48:26. > :48:28.start the process of Britain's exit from the EU.
:48:29. > :48:31.In April, it's the first round of the French
:48:32. > :48:34.If no candidate wins an outright majority here
:48:35. > :48:37.there will be a run-off between the top two
:48:38. > :48:42.Also in May, there will be local elections
:48:43. > :48:44.in England, Scotland and Wales and the Queen's Speech
:48:45. > :48:47.will introduce the Great Repeal Bill which ends the jurisdiction
:48:48. > :48:54.of the European Court of Justice in the UK.
:48:55. > :48:56.Finally, in September, it's the German Federal Elections
:48:57. > :48:58.where Chancellor Angela Merkel will be vying for a fourth
:48:59. > :49:06.Well, to discuss this further I'm joined by Parliament's two newest
:49:07. > :49:08.members, Sarah Olney is the new Liberal Democrat
:49:09. > :49:09.MP for Richmond Park, and Caroline Johnson
:49:10. > :49:12.is the new Conservative MP for Sleaford and North Hykeham -
:49:13. > :49:22.Welcome to both of you in what looks like another busy year in 2017.
:49:23. > :49:26.Caroline Johnson, you voted in favour of Brexit, so what are your
:49:27. > :49:30.priorities for next year? My priorities for next year are working
:49:31. > :49:35.as a constituency MP and representing the people of Sleaford,
:49:36. > :49:39.as well as strengthening the government majority in parliament so
:49:40. > :49:42.we can deliver on Brexit and also the rest of the Conservative
:49:43. > :49:45.manifesto commitments. You said you were completely behind the
:49:46. > :49:50.government plan for Brexit. Do you know what the plan is for Brexit
:49:51. > :49:56.then? The plan is to trigger Article 50 by the end of March. That much we
:49:57. > :50:01.know. And then to concentrate on negotiating the best deal we can
:50:02. > :50:06.both with the European Union, so we can trade freely with them, while
:50:07. > :50:10.having control of borders and laws, but using the opportunity to also
:50:11. > :50:14.get good trade deals with other countries around the world. Well
:50:15. > :50:18.done, you have read the memo from Theresa May. Sarah, what are your
:50:19. > :50:24.New Year 's resolutions in terms of your political agenda? Like
:50:25. > :50:29.Caroline, I have some settling in to do and get round my constituency and
:50:30. > :50:34.start to meet people and make sure I'm representing them properly. In
:50:35. > :50:38.terms of politics, in the Liberal Democrats we are still very keen to
:50:39. > :50:41.see a much wider and bigger discussion about the terms of the X
:50:42. > :50:45.it from the EU, and that is something we will push for in
:50:46. > :50:51.parliament. -- the X it. Will you vote against the triggering of
:50:52. > :50:56.Article 50? Yes. Come what May? We have to see what is put before
:50:57. > :50:59.Parliament. Hopefully we will get a vote of Article 50 in parliament and
:51:00. > :51:02.I think that is what the Supreme Court will give us in January, but
:51:03. > :51:08.that was my commitment in my by-election campaign. But she will
:51:09. > :51:10.vote against it whatever plan is laid before Parliament? Even your
:51:11. > :51:14.Liberal Democrat colleagues are saying they wouldn't necessarily
:51:15. > :51:19.voting -- vote against it if they got a second referendum, for
:51:20. > :51:23.example? I have my own personal mandate from the voters. What we
:51:24. > :51:29.really want is to see a second referendum and we think it's really
:51:30. > :51:33.important. The leave vote did not give a clear mandate for the terms
:51:34. > :51:38.in which we leave the EU and we need to have a bigger discussion about
:51:39. > :51:42.what that looks like. On that, Caroline Johnson, your predecessor
:51:43. > :51:45.also voted for Brexit, but he resigned saying that ministers had
:51:46. > :51:50.ignored parliament since the referendum. Was he right? You would
:51:51. > :51:54.need to talk to Steven about why he resigned. Yes, but do you agree with
:51:55. > :52:01.him? That ministers have ignored Parliament since the referendum? I
:52:02. > :52:05.don't agree with him. The point that is being made is a key one, that we
:52:06. > :52:10.need to negotiate the best deal with the EU and whilst Theresa May has
:52:11. > :52:16.been clear that we will leave the European Union and that hurt
:52:17. > :52:20.priorities in doing so is to ensure we have control of borders,
:52:21. > :52:26.sovereignty and laws. Would you like asked to leave the single market and
:52:27. > :52:29.Customs union? We need to get the best deal without discussing every
:52:30. > :52:35.nuance of the negotiations while we are doing it. That is more than a
:52:36. > :52:40.nuance. OK. If that is the case and you say you have a personal mandate
:52:41. > :52:43.to vote against the triggering of Article 50, going further than some
:52:44. > :52:47.of your colleagues, as there are only three other people who will
:52:48. > :52:53.join you in that, Kenneth Clarke, David Lambie and Catherine West, so
:52:54. > :52:56.is there any point? It's about sending a clear message to Theresa
:52:57. > :53:00.May, whichever way we can, that Parliament want a greater say in the
:53:01. > :53:05.terms in which we leave the European Union, if that is to happen. Let's
:53:06. > :53:11.talk about other things on going. The strikes for example. Talk of a
:53:12. > :53:14.Christmas of discontent. One of your Conservative colleagues once more
:53:15. > :53:21.action to prevent unreasonable strikes. Would you back those sorts
:53:22. > :53:26.of proposals? I've not seen the detail of the proposals at this
:53:27. > :53:30.stage. Clearly the strikes are very upsetting and disruptive for those
:53:31. > :53:39.people who are trying to get the trains on time and other things. But
:53:40. > :53:42.hopefully the unions will be able to come to some negotiated settlement.
:53:43. > :53:46.There is no sign of that at the moment. My question is, if there
:53:47. > :53:51.were moves to further strengthen the laws, because you just have the
:53:52. > :53:55.trade union act passed to strengthen the threshold at which strike action
:53:56. > :53:59.can take place. The strike action by rail drivers met the threshold.
:54:00. > :54:04.Would you like to see stronger anti-trade union legislation? I
:54:05. > :54:08.think there has to be a balance between ensuring that the public can
:54:09. > :54:16.go about their daily life without strike action and a person's ability
:54:17. > :54:19.to make some sort of protest. Depending on the type of job they
:54:20. > :54:25.do, in some jobs, that is already not allowed, already banned, as it
:54:26. > :54:33.were. I think the devil is in the detail. It always is in the detail.
:54:34. > :54:39.In your case, do you think, when it comes to strikes that there should
:54:40. > :54:42.be firmer action? Would the Liberal Democrats support action to make it
:54:43. > :54:46.more difficult for people to go on strike, bearing in mind the
:54:47. > :54:48.disruption that has occurred? I think the right to strike is a
:54:49. > :54:53.fundamental freedom that is something would always defend. But
:54:54. > :54:58.do you see the rail drivers strike as an essential service? There is no
:54:59. > :55:02.doubt that the rail drivers strike has created enormous difficulties
:55:03. > :55:05.for people, particularly on Southern rail and across the south-east.
:55:06. > :55:09.People have had to leave their jobs because they cannot get to work. I'm
:55:10. > :55:15.disappointed we haven't had a firmer intervention by the government with
:55:16. > :55:18.the Southern Railway franchise because there have been problems on
:55:19. > :55:26.Southern Railway over two years. Not like this. It's a combination of
:55:27. > :55:29.factors. I think the government... It's not a combination of factors,
:55:30. > :55:34.it's an outrage. They are destroying people's lives and jobs, and it's a
:55:35. > :55:37.monopoly and monopolies should not be getting in the way of stopping
:55:38. > :55:44.ordinary hard-working people getting to work. Can I just say this
:55:45. > :55:49.argument, is front backwards. We will ignore that. There have been
:55:50. > :55:55.problems on Southern rail for longer than the industrial action on the
:55:56. > :55:58.problems are caused by underfunding and price gauging. It's absolutely
:55:59. > :56:02.straightforward. We shouldn't be talking about this is a trade union
:56:03. > :56:06.problem, it's a problem with privatising the railways. On that,
:56:07. > :56:12.will we see a Liberal Democrat surge? Are you the start of the
:56:13. > :56:14.surge? I hope so. Very much in the vanguard. Good luck to both of you.
:56:15. > :56:16.Have a good 2017. Now it wouldn't be a Daily
:56:17. > :56:18.Politics Christmas special without a Daily Politics Mystery
:56:19. > :56:22.Santa. He's been getting ready backstage
:56:23. > :56:25.but will Kelvin and Zoe be able to work out who's behind
:56:26. > :56:48.the beard this year? # They know that Santa is on his
:56:49. > :57:01.way. # He is loading lots of goodies on his sleigh. # Every mother's
:57:02. > :57:02.child is going to spy Tousiq reindeer -- to see if reindeer
:57:03. > :57:22.really how to fly. # two kids from one to 92. #
:57:23. > :57:29.Although it has been said many times, many ways, Merry Christmas to
:57:30. > :57:37.you. # Let's see if Kelvin and Zoe can work
:57:38. > :57:54.out who's behind the beard. You may have an idea anyway. Can we
:57:55. > :57:58.ask them questions? No, the voice gives it away. It's David Cameron,
:57:59. > :58:01.the only voice he can get going. I would be delighted if we had David
:58:02. > :58:07.Cameron, but I'm delighted we have this person. Any guesses? I have no
:58:08. > :58:11.idea. He was elected to the House of Commons in the 2005 general election
:58:12. > :58:14.which narrows it down by about nothing. He is one of seven MPs
:58:15. > :58:19.representing the county of Northamptonshire. Any guesses? He
:58:20. > :58:29.campaigned to leave in the EU referendum. He's a good guy. Right.
:58:30. > :58:37.Get the politics in there. No, Zoe? Is he still an MP? Who do you think
:58:38. > :58:40.he is then? What's he doing here? This is a very prestigious
:58:41. > :58:44.programme. Last week he got into trouble with the Commons Speaker for
:58:45. > :58:49.wearing a silly hat in support of a breast cancer charity in his
:58:50. > :58:57.constituency. I like him. You both like him. He is conservative. He is
:58:58. > :59:01.in his late 50s? Let's reveal. You've done very well at actually
:59:02. > :59:13.keeping your identity away. Yes, reveal. Who is it? Well done. You
:59:14. > :59:19.could see his face. The fact I knew his name is a great credit to him.
:59:20. > :59:25.He has a present. Very quickly. I think Kelvin will want this. The BBC
:59:26. > :59:33.definitely will not want this. Thank you very much. I can see it as a
:59:34. > :59:34.mug. That's it. Open your presence at your leisure.
:59:35. > :59:37.That's all for today and indeed that's all for 2016.
:59:38. > :59:40.I will be back with the Daily Politics on the 9th of January.
:59:41. > :59:43.Until then, from all of the team here, have a very Merry Christmas
:59:44. > :59:55.Show up your mugs here. That was very predictable. Peter Bone, thank
:59:56. > :59:56.you for being our mystery Santa. From all of us, thank you and have a
:59:57. > :00:00.very good festive season. Hello, I'm Charlie Brooker.
:00:01. > :00:03.Please join me for 2016 Wipe, looking back at a year containing
:00:04. > :00:05.nothing but hard Brexit, echo chambers, Lineker's knickers,
:00:06. > :00:08.the fall of Cameron,