:00:36. > :00:41.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.Jeremy Corbyn has been giving us his new year's resolutions ahead
:00:46. > :00:58.of his big speech on Brexit today - the Labour leader says he's "not
:00:59. > :01:00.-- wants a cap on maximum earnings and wedded" to EU
:01:01. > :01:04.But he also tells the BBC he stands by his view that immigration
:01:05. > :01:09.The Health Secretary admits NHS services in some parts of England
:01:10. > :01:11.were in an 'extemely fragile' state over Christmas.
:01:12. > :01:14.to relax the four-hour target for accident and emergency?
:01:15. > :01:17.We'll speak to his predecessor Andrew Lansley.
:01:18. > :01:20.The power-sharing government at Stormont is on the brink
:01:21. > :01:22.of collapse after Martin McGuinness quits as Deputy First Minister over
:01:23. > :01:27.Is Northern Ireland heading for a snap election,
:01:28. > :01:35.And we'll be saying farewell to Lord Biro, leader
:01:36. > :01:39.of the Bus Pass Elvis Party, as he hangs up his jumpsuit -
:01:40. > :01:42.and his bus pass - and says he's stood in his last
:01:43. > :01:55.With us for the whole of the programme today, it's Phil
:01:56. > :01:59.He's a columnist for the Times and he also used to be speech
:02:00. > :02:08.although probably not one Phil was asked to help with -
:02:09. > :02:10.Jeremy Corbyn is going to be talking about Labour's approach to Brexit
:02:11. > :02:15.But he's already given us plenty to chew over in a series
:02:16. > :02:29.he said he would like to see a cap on maximum income to address
:02:30. > :02:35.inequality. On immigration it was suggested he would back the idea on
:02:36. > :02:38.restrictions of EU nationals' rights to live a work in UK. This is what
:02:39. > :02:47.he said BBC political editor. The freedom of movement is being
:02:48. > :02:49.exploited by unscrupulous employers. That is what I want
:02:50. > :02:51.to put an end to. But do you or do you
:02:52. > :02:54.not want to end...? I want us to have market access
:02:55. > :02:57.in Europe, I want us And that means continuing
:02:58. > :03:03.with freedom of movement? Let's see what comes out of the
:03:04. > :03:06.negotiations. Also the way the government approaches this ought to
:03:07. > :03:10.be more open and reporting to Parliament about what they are doing
:03:11. > :03:16.and we are working with Socialist parties in government and opposition
:03:17. > :03:19.across Europe to build a good relationship with them for the good
:03:20. > :03:25.of this country and those future negotiations. Barry Gardner is the
:03:26. > :03:31.Shadow Secretary of State for international trade. Do you support
:03:32. > :03:36.curbing freedom of movement in the EU. We have said we are not wedded
:03:37. > :03:42.to the principle of free movement. We are wedded to jobs and economic
:03:43. > :03:47.prosperity, which has to be any government's topline in the UK. We
:03:48. > :03:52.want the continuation of jobs here and that means foreign companies
:03:53. > :03:56.have to be able to invest in this country, and it means the
:03:57. > :04:01.continuation of jobs in Europe. We have 2 million living and working in
:04:02. > :04:04.Europe and these negotiations have to secure those jobs and that
:04:05. > :04:09.prosperity which is what we depend on. The briefing overnight from the
:04:10. > :04:15.Labour Party was that Jeremy Corbyn would signal a change in direction.
:04:16. > :04:19.We know he has been wedded to EU freedom of movement, and he was
:04:20. > :04:24.going to say today that was not going to continue. Why did he go on
:04:25. > :04:31.to say he's still feels the levels of immigration are not too high,
:04:32. > :04:35.from the EU, and he said the EU says access to the single market requires
:04:36. > :04:39.freedom of movement, I would say economically we've got to be able to
:04:40. > :04:47.trade in Europe, in other words he would cave in to Brussels demands.
:04:48. > :04:52.It is not about caving in. Let's separate things that are distinct.
:04:53. > :04:57.One is the negotiating we have to do with partners in Europe about a new
:04:58. > :05:02.relationship and how we protect jobs and the British economy. They have
:05:03. > :05:08.stated clearly the four freedoms, one of which is freedom of movement,
:05:09. > :05:12.is a critical element of having unfettered access into the single
:05:13. > :05:18.market. He said if that is the price, so be it. We will sign up to
:05:19. > :05:22.freedom of movement. What we have said equally is we are not wedded to
:05:23. > :05:28.free movement as a principle, we are wedded to getting the best access
:05:29. > :05:35.that secures jobs and economic prosperity. There is a shift here.
:05:36. > :05:39.It is semantics, I think. Most people will say, Jeremy Corbyn is
:05:40. > :05:43.saying exactly what he has said before, he said he had not changed
:05:44. > :05:48.his mind about levels of immigration, maybe rightly so, but
:05:49. > :05:51.that is not what we were told he would say this afternoon. It is
:05:52. > :05:56.unravelling in his interviews when he says, although I am not wedded to
:05:57. > :06:03.free movement I will support it if that's the price for each economic
:06:04. > :06:06.jobs and prosperity. You are bundling together immigration
:06:07. > :06:10.controls with specifics in negotiation about freedom of
:06:11. > :06:13.movement as a principle and price in negotiations one has to pay to
:06:14. > :06:19.secure economic prosperity. Is it a price you are paired to pay for
:06:20. > :06:24.access to the single market? We have said we are not wedded to that and
:06:25. > :06:29.when it comes to immigration controls, we have said we believe in
:06:30. > :06:35.fair immigration rules and controls and properly managed migration. What
:06:36. > :06:41.does that mean for viewers, they want to know what Barry Gardner is
:06:42. > :06:45.saying, is he saying, in his fair managed migration policies that the
:06:46. > :06:49.Labour Party will support that numbers will come down. Is
:06:50. > :06:54.immigration to high? Let me answer both questions because there are
:06:55. > :06:59.two. The first question is answered by saying we want to ensure
:07:00. > :07:04.immigration policy works for the advantage of the people who are
:07:05. > :07:09.currently living in this country, and not only for the advantage of
:07:10. > :07:13.people who want to come here and the perception that the public have had
:07:14. > :07:17.in the past is it works too much in favour of people who want to come
:07:18. > :07:22.here and not in favour of people already here. That is the first
:07:23. > :07:28.point, the second part of your question, it relates to the
:07:29. > :07:35.management of migration. That is about ensuring instead of simply
:07:36. > :07:41.applying as the Conservatives try to do under Theresa May at the Home
:07:42. > :07:46.Office, an artificial number. And yet we now have record migration
:07:47. > :07:50.into this country, we are saying, let's look at the real problem, what
:07:51. > :07:55.is attracting people to come to this country? That is what Ed Miliband
:07:56. > :07:59.said, he wanted curbs on the way... Let me completely answer. You have
:08:00. > :08:06.not said if you want levels to come down. The way of ensuring levels
:08:07. > :08:11.come down to reasonable levels is to ensure employers are not able to
:08:12. > :08:16.attract people here, the workers directive that enables people to
:08:17. > :08:20.come as agency workers undercutting wage levels and jobs in the UK, that
:08:21. > :08:24.is what we want to stop and why Jeremy was setting out in the speech
:08:25. > :08:32.today, setting out a positive view of how we can be better off even
:08:33. > :08:36.outside the European Union. In your mind, has Jeremy Corbyn said
:08:37. > :08:42.anything different, has he stuck to the script briefed to everybody to
:08:43. > :08:46.say there is a shift in policy? My initial impression was there was a
:08:47. > :08:51.shift to managed migration, I thought it was significant and I
:08:52. > :08:57.take Barry's word it is. I think he is muffling the message, Jeremy
:08:58. > :09:01.Corbyn, to put it mildly. When a Labour leader gets to the question
:09:02. > :09:06.of immigration, they end up talking about exploitation of immigrants,
:09:07. > :09:10.which I agree is a question, it is not the question posed by most
:09:11. > :09:14.people, that is not what they are worrying about, particularly when
:09:15. > :09:19.they talk about immigration and that question, do do you want immigration
:09:20. > :09:24.to come down? It is difficult and hard for the Labour Party and this
:09:25. > :09:29.is not a criticism of Jeremy Corbyn because the Labour Party is in a
:09:30. > :09:30.strategic dilemma. Many Labour MPs, particularly in northern
:09:31. > :09:37.constituencies, Hussein numbers have to come down. It is easy to give a
:09:38. > :09:41.yes or no answer and Jeremy Corbyn on other occasions has said
:09:42. > :09:46.immigration is not too high but the problem is the top 25 Remain
:09:47. > :09:52.constituencies in the country are Labour and so are the top 25 Brexit
:09:53. > :09:56.constituencies, which is a serious problem and the degree in model in
:09:57. > :10:00.policy is probably to be expected given back to you are contending
:10:01. > :10:05.with that. Do you accept he modelled the policy? That Jeremy Corbyn has
:10:06. > :10:11.unravelled what was supposed to be the new policy? I don't and I do not
:10:12. > :10:15.think it is muddled. The model is the government failure to articulate
:10:16. > :10:21.a policy about how it will negotiate the new relationship with Europe. I
:10:22. > :10:26.wanted to pick up on something Phil said. He said that Labour
:10:27. > :10:31.politicians always retreat into talking about the exploitation of
:10:32. > :10:36.immigrants. It is about the exploitation of workers in this
:10:37. > :10:40.country who are being undercut by those coming in by the workers
:10:41. > :10:45.directive, the agencies bringing them in and exploiting them and
:10:46. > :10:51.using that to drive down standards and wages for British workers, which
:10:52. > :10:57.is what we object to. Arguably Ed Miliband had these policies. And we
:10:58. > :11:00.are with the current levels of net migration way beyond tens of
:11:01. > :11:03.thousands, which is the government level and Jeremy Corbyn suggested he
:11:04. > :11:04.would set a maximum earnings cap. Either you do a cap,
:11:05. > :11:07.or you look at the levels Other countries have got some
:11:08. > :11:10.policies developing this, and I think we need to consult
:11:11. > :11:13.with them and learn Because it can't be right that those
:11:14. > :11:17.who are actually doing the work are often living in work in poverty,
:11:18. > :11:31.whilst the chief executive Barry Gardner, do you support a
:11:32. > :11:36.maximum earnings cap? David Cameron first started talking about it. I
:11:37. > :11:41.think you look at the public sector and you have to ask yourself the
:11:42. > :11:45.question, why in the public sector you have chief executives of
:11:46. > :11:49.hospitals and other public sector bodies that are earning not just
:11:50. > :11:54.more than the Prime Minister but many times more than the Prime
:11:55. > :11:59.Minister. This is public money going to subsidise huge levels of wages
:12:00. > :12:05.and income, which I feel cannot be justified. You are talking about the
:12:06. > :12:11.public sector. Jeremy Corbyn seemed to be talking in general. Do you not
:12:12. > :12:17.supported in the private sector? The Labour Party is not against
:12:18. > :12:20.people'saspirations. It is an important distinction, do you want
:12:21. > :12:24.to see it in the private sector? We need to look at ways in which we can
:12:25. > :12:29.make society more equal and a cap might be one way of looking at that
:12:30. > :12:35.but it is not the way I would favour. I believe the way to address
:12:36. > :12:40.issues of inequality are do as the Labour Party has said, increase the
:12:41. > :12:45.national minimum wage to a reasonable level, ensure within the
:12:46. > :12:51.public sector you have ratios of earnings. But what was Jeremy Corbyn
:12:52. > :12:57.saying? In the private sector you address that through taxation and in
:12:58. > :13:04.particular... You would like higher taxation in the private sector but
:13:05. > :13:09.not a maximum earnings cap? Jeremy Corbyn did not make that clear. You
:13:10. > :13:12.think he was talking about the public sector, not about the private
:13:13. > :13:17.sector? Is that something you discussed with him in Shadow
:13:18. > :13:20.Cabinet? He made these remarks in the interview this morning and I
:13:21. > :13:26.have not been able to discuss it with him. This was something he has
:13:27. > :13:30.felt for some time. What is your response to the idea? One Labour
:13:31. > :13:36.Party source thought it was a bonkers idea and that Jeremy Corbyn
:13:37. > :13:42.had come up with that off the top of his head. Even in the interview he
:13:43. > :13:47.left himself plenty of room, saying an earnings cap all looking at
:13:48. > :13:52.ratios so I do not think we can take it as Labour Party policy. I largely
:13:53. > :13:56.agree with what Barry said but in defence of high wages in the public
:13:57. > :14:02.sector, bomb way we can improve the public sector in the past 20 years,
:14:03. > :14:06.and we have, is that people are paid a better wage than they used to be
:14:07. > :14:10.and in large measure that is defensible. I am sure there are
:14:11. > :14:15.cases we can pull out but as a rule I am pleased people can do public
:14:16. > :14:18.service jobs and be paid well. I have to end it there. Thanks.
:14:19. > :14:20.Yesterday, Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness resigned as Northern
:14:21. > :14:22.Ireland's Deputy First Minister in protest against how
:14:23. > :14:25.a renewable energy scheme was set up and funded -
:14:26. > :14:28.what has become known as the "cash for ash" scandal.
:14:29. > :14:31.Under Northern Ireland's power sharing arrangement,
:14:32. > :14:34.his decision to quit forces the resignation of the Democratic
:14:35. > :14:37.Unionist Party's First Minister, Arlene Foster.
:14:38. > :14:41.This in turn makes a snap election more likely.
:14:42. > :14:44.But how did a green energy policy lead to the collapse
:14:45. > :14:50.Martin McGuinness said the DUP's conduct over
:14:51. > :14:52.the Renewable Heat Incentive scheme was the main reason
:14:53. > :14:58.DUP leader Arlene Foster set up the scheme in 2012,
:14:59. > :15:05.But flaws left it open to abuse as claimants could earn more cash
:15:06. > :15:08.the more fuel they used, with the overspend estimated
:15:09. > :15:16.Mr McGuinness accused the DUP of refusing to recognise public
:15:17. > :15:20.anger and damaging trust in the Northern Ireland executive,
:15:21. > :15:22.adding that his resignation was designed to "call a halt
:15:23. > :15:29.Mrs Foster had resisted repeat calls to step aside,
:15:30. > :15:31.but Mr McGuinness's resignation means she automatically
:15:32. > :15:38.Northern Ireland's power-sharing agreement is designed in such a way
:15:39. > :15:39.that both nationalist and unionist communities must be
:15:40. > :15:46.If Sinn Fein doesn't nominate a replacement
:15:47. > :15:49.as Deputy First Minister - which Mr McGuinness says
:15:50. > :15:51.it won't do - then it becomes the responsibility
:15:52. > :15:55.of Northern Ireland Secretary James Brokenshire to call an election.
:15:56. > :15:57.The usual time period for an election campaign is six
:15:58. > :16:01.weeks, although the law allows some flexibility.
:16:02. > :16:05.But if a fresh election returns a similar result -
:16:06. > :16:08.and Sinn Fein and the DUP can't reach a power-sharing agreement -
:16:09. > :16:13.Mr Brokenshire has the power to suspend the devolved government
:16:14. > :16:17.and effectively restore direct rule - last in place in 2007.
:16:18. > :16:21.And within the next half hour the Northern Ireland Secretary
:16:22. > :16:24.is expected to make a statement to the House of Commons
:16:25. > :16:38.I'm joined now from Stormont by Sinn Fein Assembly
:16:39. > :16:52.Why did Mr McGuinness choose yesterday to resign? This context
:16:53. > :16:55.comes in the context of a number of serious financial scandals which
:16:56. > :17:01.have taken place in the north of Ireland over a period of years,
:17:02. > :17:07.known variously as red sky and under other revelations which have taken
:17:08. > :17:14.us to the heart of corruption within the Northern business and political
:17:15. > :17:18.class. RHI has been badly mishandled by the Democratic Unionist Party and
:17:19. > :17:20.as a result of their reckless approach to this issue and many
:17:21. > :17:26.other financial scandals which have beset the institutions, they have
:17:27. > :17:30.dragged us recklessly to a tipping point. And all of this comes in the
:17:31. > :17:34.context of a situation where the DUP have demonstrated utter contempt and
:17:35. > :17:41.arrogance towards all sections of the community here in the north of
:17:42. > :17:43.Ireland. In particular, the Republican and nationalist
:17:44. > :17:48.constituency in the north, but this also extends to people who are gay,
:17:49. > :17:54.people from the Lesbian and Gay community, towards women. We have a
:17:55. > :17:58.situation now where the basis of the Good Friday agreement, that
:17:59. > :18:01.principles and process have now been subject to absolute corruption. So
:18:02. > :18:05.there has been a complete breakdown in trust as far as you are
:18:06. > :18:09.concerned, and you have said that in the end, the financial scandal has
:18:10. > :18:13.acted as a tipping point. But why was the DUP's offer of a public
:18:14. > :18:22.inquiry into that scheme not sufficient for you? Because we
:18:23. > :18:28.invited the DUP leader to reflect on this over Christmas and we said she
:18:29. > :18:33.should step aside temporarily from her position as First Minister in
:18:34. > :18:36.order to allow for a robust, comprehensive, judge led
:18:37. > :18:42.investigation to get to the root of this scandal and ensure full
:18:43. > :18:47.discovery of all of the facts and the evidence that has led to a
:18:48. > :18:51.situation where the Northern executive faces the prospect of a
:18:52. > :18:54.half ?1 billion being taken from our block grant from our public
:18:55. > :18:58.expenditure settlement at a point in time when the British Conservative
:18:59. > :19:00.government continues with unremitting austerity policies. And
:19:01. > :19:06.the reckless decision to proceed with Brexit in relation to the
:19:07. > :19:10.Northern economy. But as far as you are concerned, was that not a
:19:11. > :19:13.counter-productive move for Martin McGuinness to resign? Now there will
:19:14. > :19:17.be no chance of agreeing an independent investigation of the
:19:18. > :19:21.type you have outlined, or recouping some of the scheme's losses, because
:19:22. > :19:27.all the parties are likely to be in election mode. That is entirely to
:19:28. > :19:31.miss the point. There is a huge and unprecedented public outrage in the
:19:32. > :19:36.north of Ireland in relation to this scandal. But you can't do anything
:19:37. > :19:41.now if you are in election mode. And there was a deepening angry about
:19:42. > :19:48.the abusive, arrogant and contemptuous treatment that the DUP
:19:49. > :19:52.have dished out to other parties and wider society. So now we are facing
:19:53. > :19:57.an election, and that will provide an opportunity for the people to
:19:58. > :20:02.speak and cast their verdict on this and tolerable and unacceptable
:20:03. > :20:07.political situation. I hear your anger, and you say that that also
:20:08. > :20:10.reflects great public anger, but the reality could be that once an
:20:11. > :20:16.election is over, we are likely to be in exactly the same position,
:20:17. > :20:19.because the two main parties will be yours and the DUP, and the terms you
:20:20. > :20:23.have used to describe your partners in power-sharing have been pretty
:20:24. > :20:29.forceful. How will you work together? It will change nothing.
:20:30. > :20:35.What needs to happen on the other side of an election is a process
:20:36. > :20:38.that ensures that we get back to an adherence to the faithful and full
:20:39. > :20:44.implementation of the Good Friday agreement. But if it is you and the
:20:45. > :20:49.DUP back together again, how would you do that? We need to have a
:20:50. > :20:53.situation where the Democratic Unionist Party and political
:20:54. > :20:59.unionism commit to equality, mutual respect and parity of esteem and
:21:00. > :21:02.decent treatment of all citizens and propriety in government in the
:21:03. > :21:07.aftermath of this election. Under circumstances where the DUP cannot
:21:08. > :21:10.sign up to that modest agenda, we will not have institutions, mad
:21:11. > :21:13.because Sinn Fein is not going back into a situation where the political
:21:14. > :21:18.institutions of our peace process continue to be abused. Declan
:21:19. > :21:22.kidney, thank you for joining us. We are joined now from the Central
:21:23. > :21:26.Lobby of the Houses of Parliament by the DUP's Chief Whip Jeffrey
:21:27. > :21:30.Donaldson. I am presuming you could hear the previous interview. You can
:21:31. > :21:35.hear the strength of the anger. Why did Arlene Foster not resign before
:21:36. > :21:37.she was pushed? Well, why would Arlene Foster resigned when there is
:21:38. > :21:43.no evidence that she has done anything wrong? Why would she resign
:21:44. > :21:50.at the behest of Sinn Fein when Martin McGuinness, the Deputy First
:21:51. > :21:52.Minister, was under scrutiny in the inquiry into bloody Sunday? Did he
:21:53. > :21:58.step aside during that inquiry, when it involved matters not about some
:21:59. > :22:02.heat incentive, but people who have lost our minds on the streets of
:22:03. > :22:06.Londonderry? He didn't step aside. So Sinn Fein and their double
:22:07. > :22:10.standards are breathtaking. That sounds like double standards being
:22:11. > :22:15.used as an excuse for her not to do what was the right thing to do as
:22:16. > :22:19.far as Sinn Fein are concerned. If she had stood aside, you could have
:22:20. > :22:24.avoided the resignation of Martin McGuinness and the bringing down of
:22:25. > :22:27.power-sharing. It is Sinn Fein who brought power-sharing down. They
:22:28. > :22:31.have torn up the Good Friday agreement and put the peace process
:22:32. > :22:35.at risk. It is Sinn Fein who have abandoned people today in Northern
:22:36. > :22:40.Ireland who faced welfare reform. It is Sinn Fein who have made it
:22:41. > :22:43.impossible to have an independent investigation into the RHI
:22:44. > :22:47.situation. All of these things have happened because Sinn Fein have
:22:48. > :22:51.walked away from the table. When you're in government, you have to
:22:52. > :22:56.take responsibility. You have to face the challenges. You don't run
:22:57. > :22:58.away from them. The DUP wants an independent investigation. Arlene
:22:59. > :23:07.Foster will cooperate fully with that investigation, but Sinn Fein
:23:08. > :23:10.have blocked it. But that is because trust had completely broken down
:23:11. > :23:14.according to Declan kidney. Do you accept his allegations that the DUP
:23:15. > :23:18.are no longer committed to the principles and values of the Good
:23:19. > :23:21.Friday agreement? You are not committed to equality and treating
:23:22. > :23:27.your power-sharing partners equally, and that is what has led to this
:23:28. > :23:30.state of affairs. That is absolute bunkum. Martin McGuinness, the
:23:31. > :23:33.Deputy First Minister, is the former chief of staff of a terrorist
:23:34. > :23:38.organisation that was responsible for the murder of thousands of
:23:39. > :23:42.citizens of Northern Ireland. The attempted murder of the father of
:23:43. > :23:47.the First Minister, Arlene Foster, they tried to kill Arlene Foster's
:23:48. > :23:53.father, the IRA, at his farm in co Fermanagh. And despite all of that,
:23:54. > :23:59.the DUP was prepared to move forward, to go into government with
:24:00. > :24:04.Martin McGuinness. But have you treated them equally? Please don't
:24:05. > :24:08.talk about trust. I am talking about what Declan Kearney said in the
:24:09. > :24:11.interview. I understand the pain for historical context that you have
:24:12. > :24:15.outlined. In power-sharing government, have you treated your
:24:16. > :24:20.power-sharing partner, Sinn Fein, in the sort of way that was outlined in
:24:21. > :24:25.the agreement? Of course we have. We share power. Sinn Fein have
:24:26. > :24:32.ministerial office in that government. But they are the ones
:24:33. > :24:35.who walked away from power-sharing. They are the ones who took about a
:24:36. > :24:40.Conservative government imposing austerity, but they have just handed
:24:41. > :24:43.power back to the very Conservative government that they despise. It
:24:44. > :24:48.will now be direct rule from Westminster. And you think that will
:24:49. > :24:52.now be necessary to break this impasse? I think we are in for a
:24:53. > :24:56.long period of direct rule now, and big decisions are going to be taken
:24:57. > :24:59.here at Westminster about Brexit, about the future of Northern
:25:00. > :25:02.Ireland, about the likelihood of every citizen, and Sinn Fein have
:25:03. > :25:06.just cut Northern Ireland out of that debate. They have removed
:25:07. > :25:22.Northern Ireland's voice from the table.
:25:23. > :25:25.There will be no devolved ministers at the table to speak for Northern
:25:26. > :25:28.Ireland. The DUP will be at Westminster. Unlike Sinn Fein, we
:25:29. > :25:30.take our seats here and we will use our influence at Westminster for the
:25:31. > :25:32.good of every citizen in Northern Ireland. But the people that Sinn
:25:33. > :25:35.Fein represent, whose livelihoods depend on the decisions that will be
:25:36. > :25:37.taken about Brexit, they will have no voice because Sinn Fein have
:25:38. > :25:39.abandoned them. They have walked away from power-sharing. They handed
:25:40. > :25:42.the reins of power back to the director or ministers, so let's not
:25:43. > :25:46.hear any crocodile tears from Sinn Fein about austerity or about
:25:47. > :25:50.Brexit. They have given up on power-sharing and abandoned the Good
:25:51. > :25:56.Friday agreement, not us. We will no doubt hear more from the Secretary
:25:57. > :26:00.of State later today. What is your reaction to what has happened, the
:26:01. > :26:04.crumbling of power-sharing? It really is a crumbling. It is a good
:26:05. > :26:08.principle in disputes like this that both sides are right. There is
:26:09. > :26:12.always something to be set on either side. Clearly, the DUP have not
:26:13. > :26:16.managed this well. One thing you can do early on with a dispute in
:26:17. > :26:21.politics is to concede a little bit and then try and move on. Clearly,
:26:22. > :26:26.something has escalated, so we have the pretext of an energy initiative,
:26:27. > :26:31.but it is a proxy for a series of other things. Do you think if Arlene
:26:32. > :26:35.Foster had moved aside earlier, it would have prevented Martin
:26:36. > :26:41.McGuinness from walking? It may have done. It is about trust. There is
:26:42. > :26:45.also a domestic situation, because the dish government now has to play
:26:46. > :26:48.an honest broker in the election, but the British government is
:26:49. > :26:53.heavily reliant on members of the DUP in British government affairs
:26:54. > :26:56.with its very small majority, so the trust in the British government to
:26:57. > :26:59.play that role is not as good as it needs to be. Let's leave it there.
:27:00. > :27:01.Let's turn now to the pressures on the NHS in England,
:27:02. > :27:03.and accident and emergency departments in particular.
:27:04. > :27:05.Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt acknowledged yesterday that in some
:27:06. > :27:07.trusts the situation was "extremely fragile".
:27:08. > :27:10.He also seemed to indicate that the target of seeing 95%
:27:11. > :27:13.of patients in A within four hours may have to be
:27:14. > :27:15.changed to exclude those not in need of urgent care.
:27:16. > :27:22.Let's have a listen to Mr Hunt in the Commons.
:27:23. > :27:24.This Government is committed to maintaining and delivering
:27:25. > :27:29.that vital four-hour commitment to patients.
:27:30. > :27:32.But since it was announced in 2000, there are nearly nine million
:27:33. > :27:38.more visits to our A, up to 30% of whom NHS England
:27:39. > :27:44.estimate do not need to be there, and the tide is continuing to rise.
:27:45. > :27:53.So if we are going to protect our four-hour standard,
:27:54. > :27:57.we need to be clear it is a promise to sort out all urgent health
:27:58. > :27:59.problems within four hours, but not all health
:28:00. > :28:02.Is he now really telling patients that rather than trying to hit
:28:03. > :28:05.that four-hour target, the Government is now in fact
:28:06. > :28:11.If so, does NHS England support this move, and what guidance has he taken
:28:12. > :28:14.from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine that this
:28:15. > :28:18.is an appropriate change to the waiting time standard?
:28:19. > :28:22.In Scotland, we face the same problem of increased demand
:28:23. > :28:25.and shortage of doctors, yet 93.5% of our patients
:28:26. > :28:29.were seen within four hours in Christmas week,
:28:30. > :28:33.and the president of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine
:28:34. > :28:36.estimates that in areas of England it's between 50 and 60%.
:28:37. > :28:38.That difference is how it's organised.
:28:39. > :28:40.It's the fragmentation, it's the lack of integration.
:28:41. > :28:45.Will he confirm that he's just announced another significant
:28:46. > :28:52.watering down of the four-hour A target following a watering down
:28:53. > :28:56.by the coalition in their first year in office back in 2010?
:28:57. > :28:58.I've today recommitted the Government to that four-hour target.
:28:59. > :29:02.In just the answer before he spoke - maybe he wasn't listening -
:29:03. > :29:05.but I actually said that I thought it was one of the best things
:29:06. > :29:07.about the NHS that we have this four-hour promise.
:29:08. > :29:11.But the public will go to the place where it is easier to get in front
:29:12. > :29:17.of a doctor quickly, and if we don't recognise
:29:18. > :29:20.that there is an issue with the fact that a number of people who don't
:29:21. > :29:24.need to go to A are using those A, if we don't recognise that
:29:25. > :29:27.problem and try and address it, then we won't make A better
:29:28. > :29:43.We did ask to speak to a health minister, but none was forthcoming.
:29:44. > :29:45.We're joined now by the Conservative peer Andrew Lansley,
:29:46. > :29:49.Jeremy Hunt's predecessor as Health Secretary.
:29:50. > :29:55.In 2010, the NHS had record levels of patient satisfaction and low
:29:56. > :29:58.waiting lists. How have we gone from that to a health system being
:29:59. > :30:04.described by the Red Cross as being in a humanitarian crisis?
:30:05. > :30:13.Waiting times came down after 2010 but now, six, seven years in from
:30:14. > :30:18.the NHS living with cash increases in resources nearer to 2.5%, where
:30:19. > :30:25.previously they got cash increases year on year in the order of 9%.
:30:26. > :30:29.It is a money issue? There is a resources issue and organisation and
:30:30. > :30:35.efficiency issue. The NHS was required in the last parliament to
:30:36. > :30:41.deliver efficiencies and did so. It is being asked in this Parliament to
:30:42. > :30:49.deliver 22 billion. That is too ambitious. -- 22 million. When you
:30:50. > :30:52.look at accident and emergency in particular, money is being directed
:30:53. > :30:57.towards improving community services and hospitals are being left to live
:30:58. > :31:02.with what resources are available to them, which are inadequate. The
:31:03. > :31:07.resources in the community are not producing demand of hospitals. You
:31:08. > :31:11.have to reduce demand on hospitals. You conceded money is an issue and
:31:12. > :31:17.they are not getting increases in the way they used to get and there
:31:18. > :31:22.is less money around. To be fair, they are not asking for increases on
:31:23. > :31:27.that scale. They are asking for increases on what is being given and
:31:28. > :31:31.you have Tory MPs saying there is a sleight of hand on funding claims
:31:32. > :31:37.being made by the government, that's not as much money is going into the
:31:38. > :31:44.NHS is claimed. I understand that. In that sense, when I agreed the
:31:45. > :31:48.ring-fence with George Osborne several years ago, it included
:31:49. > :31:53.things like public health and education and training. So, I do
:31:54. > :31:59.agree to that extent, but we are talking about A and the issue is
:32:00. > :32:02.there was good information in the statement yesterday but I don't
:32:03. > :32:07.think it addressed the three things that matter, one is we have been
:32:08. > :32:13.looking... I can remember trying to do it for more consultants, senior
:32:14. > :32:20.doctors in A We should put senior decision makers at the front door of
:32:21. > :32:23.A A consultants, GPs, who can see patients quickly and determine
:32:24. > :32:29.what the nature of the response should be. Secondly, we need to
:32:30. > :32:33.improve social care, the ability for people to be discharged from
:32:34. > :32:38.hospital and that is where the NHS is asking for more money, to go into
:32:39. > :32:43.the social care system so patients can be discharged and looked after
:32:44. > :32:50.better in the community. Thirdly, in the community, the 111 system in
:32:51. > :32:56.particular, and there are other specs, is already receiving
:32:57. > :33:06.three-time as many calls as the old NHS Direct -- other aspects. Is
:33:07. > :33:12.Jeremy Hunt considering relaxing the four-hour target? I don't think he
:33:13. > :33:15.is. I think he is trying to get across people constantly talk about
:33:16. > :33:21.it as four hours to be seen, but it isn't. To be discharged? Treated and
:33:22. > :33:28.discharged. Do you think you should relax it? I relaxed it to 95%. It is
:33:29. > :33:35.missing the point to talk about moving the goalposts. More relevant
:33:36. > :33:40.is let's say there are 30% who should not be in A The point is
:33:41. > :33:45.to create a system at the front door, preferably outside it, where
:33:46. > :33:51.people do not feel the need to arrive at A, or if they do, they
:33:52. > :33:56.are handled in a GP setting, primary care setting, not become part of the
:33:57. > :34:01.statistics. Jeremy Hunt has called people who use A drug selfish and
:34:02. > :34:05.the crisis one of public responsibility. Is this the public's
:34:06. > :34:11.fault? Where else can they go if they do not go to A at night? One
:34:12. > :34:16.reason the demand for A has risen over 15 years is because they can
:34:17. > :34:21.rely on it to be open and be looked after there and in 2004, the last
:34:22. > :34:27.Labour government, through the GP contract removed the requirement. We
:34:28. > :34:32.are in 2017. Isn't that the point, the reason A is for with people
:34:33. > :34:36.coming is because there is nowhere else to go because social care is
:34:37. > :34:39.not dealing with elderly people with chronic conditions, but is it just
:34:40. > :34:45.about money? It is not just about money at it is about money. Andrew
:34:46. > :34:50.is right to say social care is crucial in the health service and it
:34:51. > :34:56.is fair to say the GP contract took away a service that meant people
:34:57. > :35:01.when they are worried go to A It is understandable they do. Plenty of
:35:02. > :35:05.us have done it. At a system level it makes no sense. The NHS is going
:35:06. > :35:16.through its busiest days it ever has. It needs money but to get near
:35:17. > :35:22.the 22 billion of efficiency savings, it needs reform. The
:35:23. > :35:26.appetite for reform is not great. Sometimes it feels in the NHS there
:35:27. > :35:31.is no money and they say we cannot reform or there is money and they
:35:32. > :35:38.say they don't need to. What is the solution? Did Jeremy Hunt offer up a
:35:39. > :35:43.solution in Parliament? He didn't. Inside the NHS and with its many
:35:44. > :35:47.stakeholders, there has been a substantial consultation on urgent
:35:48. > :35:50.and emergency care and I think the results will be published shortly
:35:51. > :35:55.and on things like the 111 system and how it could deploy a response
:35:56. > :36:01.in the community and provide clinical support may well have an
:36:02. > :36:08.impact. We need to get, like with the major trauma centres, more
:36:09. > :36:14.high-quality doctors into A Is Theresa May taking this issue
:36:15. > :36:18.seriously enough? I think she has taken it seriously, but, when you
:36:19. > :36:22.look at yesterday, she took seriously the mental health issues.
:36:23. > :36:29.But did not put much money behind it. But there was a considerable
:36:30. > :36:33.additional... The wider issue? Generally with the NHS, she and
:36:34. > :36:37.Philip Hammond are in the position where they have been responsible for
:36:38. > :36:43.large public services, who circumstances are different but
:36:44. > :36:48.actually delivered large reductions in spending and maintained service
:36:49. > :36:53.levels and improve satisfaction. For the NHS, it has never been that
:36:54. > :36:56.simple. Theresa May will have to move from thinking about it in those
:36:57. > :37:02.terms to thinking about the NHS in its proper terms. You are not
:37:03. > :37:06.surprised to see nothing for social care in the Autumn Statement? I was
:37:07. > :37:13.surprised because I cannot imagine any MP in any constituency is not
:37:14. > :37:17.aware of the fact a significant proportion, in some places as many
:37:18. > :37:24.as half of the people who used to rely on local authority support, not
:37:25. > :37:28.accessing it any more. What happens? Those people have a crisis and end
:37:29. > :37:31.up in A and in the past with social care support from the local
:37:32. > :37:33.authority they might have been looked after in the community.
:37:34. > :37:34.Now, whatever happened to the Blairites
:37:35. > :37:37.is a cry you're unlikely to hear at many local Labour Party
:37:38. > :37:41.But at one point, Tony Blair, who you may remember led the party
:37:42. > :37:44.to three general election victories, was all the rage - referred
:37:45. > :37:46.to as the Master even by political opponents like David Cameron
:37:47. > :37:52.So why did Tony Blair and his third way fall out of fashion
:37:53. > :37:55.There's some flash photography now as Mark Lobel looks back
:37:56. > :37:58.to when we were told things could only get better.
:37:59. > :38:09.But now many big names from Tony Blair's former inner
:38:10. > :38:17.circle are in the Lords or out of party politics altogether.
:38:18. > :38:20.At this restaurant in Westminster last month, that Blairite anthem
:38:21. > :38:22.was resurrected for karaoke by nostalgic Labour MPs
:38:23. > :38:30.Jeremy Corbyn had already left by the time his colleagues took
:38:31. > :38:33.centre stage to hark back to election-winning days.
:38:34. > :38:38.Tony Blair's former flatmate Lord Falconer was at the party,
:38:39. > :38:42.but assures me he didn't choose the song or sing along.
:38:43. > :38:56.He once sat in Tony Blair's Cabinet and, until recently,
:38:57. > :39:01.Hilary Benn, Rosie Winterton, Andy Burnham, Charlie Falconer,
:39:02. > :39:05.Now, we've all gone, because we all left in the June
:39:06. > :39:09.We're also all getting old, so it's time now for younger
:39:10. > :39:12.Looking back, Lord Falconer thinks the beginning of the end
:39:13. > :39:19.of New Labour came in 2008, when the financial crash
:39:20. > :39:21.suddenly changed voters' priorities from jobs,
:39:22. > :39:23.fair wages and better public services.
:39:24. > :39:27.People believing that the Government is not just not delivering for them,
:39:28. > :39:32.it's delivering distinctly worse than it was before,
:39:33. > :39:35.that's the landscape in which the Labour Party has now
:39:36. > :39:40.Things also got worse for Blairites when David Miliband lost
:39:41. > :39:44.to his brother in the battle to lead Labour following Gordon Brown,
:39:45. > :39:47.after which first Ed Miliband and then Jeremy Corbyn distanced
:39:48. > :39:53.The whole Jeremy Corbyn phenomenon is just a reaction
:39:54. > :39:58.against Tony Blair and everything he stood for and is built
:39:59. > :40:03.on the assumption that everything New Labour did is some kind
:40:04. > :40:06.of compromise with the Tories, it was in effect a Conservative
:40:07. > :40:08.government for 13 years, and needs to be rejected,
:40:09. > :40:15.And as if being a Blairite wasn't getting hard enough
:40:16. > :40:18.as Labour drifted left, after Britain voted to leave the EU
:40:19. > :40:20.in June, divisions emerged between Tony Blair and some
:40:21. > :40:26.The split in the Blairites over immigration is completely
:40:27. > :40:32.I think it has ended the idea that there is a sort
:40:33. > :40:40.As for Tony Blair himself, he is now preparing for what he insists is not
:40:41. > :40:43.a return to frontline politics with a ?9 million personal war chest
:40:44. > :40:53.frustrated by where Jeremy Corbyn has taken the party.
:40:54. > :40:56.Mr Blair wrote in his autobiography of another adversary, Gordon Brown,
:40:57. > :41:04.saying it was far better he was kept inside the tent and constrained,
:41:05. > :41:07.than outside and let loose, or, worse, becoming a figurehead
:41:08. > :41:10.for a far more damaging force well to the left.
:41:11. > :41:12.Now, it seems, it's Mr Blair and his supporters that find
:41:13. > :41:29.Our guest of the day Phil Collins is lucky enough to be one of that hardy
:41:30. > :41:36.band, the Blairites. A diminishing number, why? This is your answer to
:41:37. > :41:41.what became of us, we are on the Daily Politics. A good endeavour.
:41:42. > :41:46.Where did it all go wrong? Why did it fall so spectacularly out of
:41:47. > :41:52.fashion? It always does, nothing ever lasts for ever. Anyway I would
:41:53. > :41:56.like to question the idea they did disappear. Simon Stephens 's chief
:41:57. > :42:04.executive of the NHS and Andrey Vdovin this, government
:42:05. > :42:10.infrastructures are. Alain -- James Purnell. They have gone into what
:42:11. > :42:15.you might call organisations connected to politics but in terms
:42:16. > :42:19.of Blairites, what happened? Two things happened and one is
:42:20. > :42:24.political, a party tires of it. The Blair mission in the Labour Party
:42:25. > :42:28.was hardly ever welcomed by the Labour Party, it was doing something
:42:29. > :42:34.difficult and over time the mission got stale and the party tired of it,
:42:35. > :42:37.but also intellectually, things shift, questions change, things that
:42:38. > :42:44.brought you into power different and the combination, the way people got
:42:45. > :42:49.tired of it and of course Iraq was important in fostering that mood,
:42:50. > :42:55.but also the fact things change. If Blair or the other Blairites were in
:42:56. > :42:59.politics now and some still are, things they will be talking about
:43:00. > :43:03.will be different from 1994. Would it be different on the issue of
:43:04. > :43:07.immigration, which you said at the beginning there is no coherent group
:43:08. > :43:12.in labour who believe the same thing on immigration? I think it would be
:43:13. > :43:15.different. The Labour Party is in a difficult place on immigration
:43:16. > :43:22.because it has a split in the vote and does not know what to do
:43:23. > :43:25.politically and intellectually. I do not think the category of Blairite
:43:26. > :43:31.is useful for thinking about immigration within the party. Do you
:43:32. > :43:34.blame anyone for the disappearance of that political movement, the
:43:35. > :43:39.social Democratic movement? It depends whether you talk about the
:43:40. > :43:45.Labour Party's predicament, or the absence of a wink after Tony Blair.
:43:46. > :43:49.Wider, there are a series of guilty people and it has to be shared. The
:43:50. > :43:54.party moved from a winning position on to Gordon Brown and again under
:43:55. > :43:58.Ed Miliband, and has ended up in a place of catastrophic defeat under
:43:59. > :44:03.Jeremy Corbyn. He denies that and says he will stick as leader
:44:04. > :44:07.whatever the polls say because of his two successful leadership
:44:08. > :44:11.campaign wins. He is at 28% in opinion polls with a government that
:44:12. > :44:16.has problems, a precedent for a catastrophic defeat. What do you
:44:17. > :44:22.think of his campaign announcement that they are going to campaign war
:44:23. > :44:26.in the style of Donald Trump, much more aggressive against mainstream
:44:27. > :44:30.media, along the lines of antiestablishment, a more populist
:44:31. > :44:37.style? Will it help in? I don't know. It probably cannot get worse.
:44:38. > :44:41.There are always two aspects to a successful movement and one is the
:44:42. > :44:45.message you have got. I did not notice him trying mainstream
:44:46. > :44:50.proestablishment politics so far but you have the question of the
:44:51. > :44:55.messenger. Can he carried that idea? I am not sure. The interesting
:44:56. > :45:00.question is if the left found a charismatic brilliant leader who
:45:01. > :45:05.tried that kind of politics. You think one of the problems for Tony
:45:06. > :45:10.Blair and Gordon Brown, in good times, we can afford to be social
:45:11. > :45:13.Democrats and you can spend more on health and education. It becomes
:45:14. > :45:17.tougher and less popular as a political brand when things are
:45:18. > :45:22.tight, hence the crash. Without question. The Labour parter never
:45:23. > :45:27.really got to grips with the question of what social democracy
:45:28. > :45:32.means when they haven't got any money. -- the Labour Party. That is
:45:33. > :45:35.why the movement, a good times movement, and to some extent you
:45:36. > :45:40.have to give credit to Gordon Brown, to them for those good times, you
:45:41. > :45:43.cannot detach them, they were running the economy, but it was
:45:44. > :45:45.something easier to be in government with a lot of money around, without
:45:46. > :45:47.doubt. Now, let's talk about
:45:48. > :45:52.the centuries-old English It's a tradition that's
:45:53. > :45:57.still going strong, but it seems not More than a dozen Morris groups,
:45:58. > :46:00.or sides, as they're known, were dancing in Birmingham this
:46:01. > :46:03.weekend to mark the start But the Alvechurch group,
:46:04. > :46:05.which features dancers with black painted faces,
:46:06. > :46:07.was forced to abandon its performance after onlookers
:46:08. > :46:09.accused them of being racist. Here's some mobile phone
:46:10. > :46:46.footage posted to YouTube. We're joined now by Conservative
:46:47. > :46:49.MP Michael Fabricant, And by Lester Holloway, a campaigner
:46:50. > :47:05.with the race-equality think-tank, Lester Holloway, you spent some time
:47:06. > :47:11.researching the art of vacuuming faces when dancing. Do you believe
:47:12. > :47:17.it has racial connotations? -- blackening faces. Yes, I do. There
:47:18. > :47:22.has been enough research to show that there has been overlapped with
:47:23. > :47:26.the minstrels from the United States and has connotations with
:47:27. > :47:30.representation of and characterisation of black people.
:47:31. > :47:35.Having said that, not all Morris dancers do black up, only a section
:47:36. > :47:38.of them do. There are a lot of different theories as to how the
:47:39. > :47:41.tradition came about. But I think if you are going into the centre of one
:47:42. > :47:47.of the most multicultural cities in the case of Birmingham, they need to
:47:48. > :47:52.understand how people feel about the whole concept of black facing, that
:47:53. > :48:02.it is offensive to black people, because it comes
:48:03. > :48:04.it is offensive to black people, going through history. So it may be
:48:05. > :48:08.traditional and part of the heritage of some Morris dancing, but you can
:48:09. > :48:12.see how it could be offensive. I could understand it if we were
:48:13. > :48:15.talking about the Black minstrels, who were deliberately making
:48:16. > :48:20.themselves out to be slaves and Afro-Caribbean is, but these are
:48:21. > :48:27.not. These are guys who don't paint their hands. They wear blonde hair,
:48:28. > :48:32.a bit like me, really. There is no intention to dress as a black
:48:33. > :48:37.person. But they are still blackening their faces. Only their
:48:38. > :48:41.faces. I am a Morris dance. I do it in Litchfield, and there is no
:48:42. > :48:47.intention to make out that you are a black person. When people black up
:48:48. > :48:53.their faces, do they know what the purpose is? I know what it is. It
:48:54. > :48:57.was set up in the 15 50s, when people went begging, and they did it
:48:58. > :49:00.to disguise their faces, because it could mean death if you were
:49:01. > :49:05.begging. What is happening now is nonsense. There was a case about
:49:06. > :49:09.three months ago where the MoD pulled a photograph they were going
:49:10. > :49:11.to use in an advert of a Royal Marine with his black camouflage
:49:12. > :49:17.paint on, and they thought that would be offensive. Let's get real
:49:18. > :49:20.about this. This is not entirely correct. There are different
:49:21. > :49:25.theories as to how black facing came about, but if you take the example
:49:26. > :49:29.of Padstow in Cornwall, they don Afro wigs and are used to sing songs
:49:30. > :49:35.which have the M word in it and are used to teach them in school in the
:49:36. > :49:39.1980s. They have changed the name of the day, but the traditions of the
:49:40. > :49:43.same. As a country, we are becoming more multicultural. The whole
:49:44. > :49:47.concept of blackfacing is offensive, so I think there has to be a
:49:48. > :49:52.recognition that this is something which is out of step. For example,
:49:53. > :49:59.if you take the depiction of Jewish people in the character Shylock, or
:50:00. > :50:04.indeed Fagin in Oliver Twist, the negative portrayal of Jewish people
:50:05. > :50:09.has been downplayed, as a result of our changing society. But that is a
:50:10. > :50:14.stereotype, which is slightly different. Are you saying the Morris
:50:15. > :50:19.dancers are intentionally upholding a negative stereotype of black
:50:20. > :50:22.people? I am not saying that, because many of the Morris dancers
:50:23. > :50:27.themselves do not believe that that is what they are doing. Is that what
:50:28. > :50:32.this is about? I think the authors such as Jill Buckland and Patricia
:50:33. > :50:43.Baker have chronicled the link between portrayals of African people
:50:44. > :50:47.and Morris dancing. Michael Fabricant, in 2017, should we really
:50:48. > :50:50.expect people blacking their faces for whatever reason, even if there
:50:51. > :50:53.is no racist intent, and it seems from what you're saying, there
:50:54. > :50:59.isn't, but they should still be able to come out at in public and dance
:51:00. > :51:03.in this way? If they are trying to make out that they are black people,
:51:04. > :51:08.that is wrong and offensive and I would find it offensive. But no one
:51:09. > :51:12.knows the history. But the Alvechurch lot, whom I know well,
:51:13. > :51:16.they don't look remotely as if they are being Afro-Caribbean is all
:51:17. > :51:20.black people. They do it roughly in the streets. As I said earlier, they
:51:21. > :51:25.don't cover their hands or legs, because part of their legs are
:51:26. > :51:29.showing as well. There is no intention by them... At the end of
:51:30. > :51:33.the day, we got some traditions. We shouldn't be racist in any way. We
:51:34. > :51:37.are multicultural and we should rejoice in that fact. But come on,
:51:38. > :51:42.we have got to be realistic. England is England and we should allow for
:51:43. > :51:46.that. Why can't we have historical traditions in the way the Morris
:51:47. > :51:50.dancers are portraying it? I don't think people are arguing that it
:51:51. > :51:58.should not carry on. So you are not calling for it to be banned?
:51:59. > :52:03.Absolutely not. But when you are coming into the centre of Birmingham
:52:04. > :52:08.and blacking up, it is not surprising that there will be a
:52:09. > :52:12.negative reaction. So you want it banned in big metropolitan areas
:52:13. > :52:17.where it could cause offence if there is a diverse population? We
:52:18. > :52:20.know it causes offence and any blackfacing that takes place in a
:52:21. > :52:26.multicultural area will do that. I am not in favour of banning it, but
:52:27. > :52:31.am in favour of Michael think you'd think it is ridiculous. What is the
:52:32. > :52:35.point? I could live without this tradition, if I am honest. If it
:52:36. > :52:46.causes offence, why not voluntarily think, I may not do this? We have in
:52:47. > :52:53.Lichfield the green man Barrett, and it is led by a man with a green
:52:54. > :52:55.face. He is a pagan. Then we have Lichfield Cathedral, and I could
:52:56. > :53:00.imagine if we go by your argument that the Bishop of Lichfield and the
:53:01. > :53:05.Dean of Lichfield Cathedral might say, I am offended. Anyone can be
:53:06. > :53:10.offended about anything if they choose to be. We have got to be
:53:11. > :53:14.sensible about some of these things. Which is what I am asking you to be.
:53:15. > :53:18.It should be done by a voluntary transaction, I don't want to ban
:53:19. > :53:25.anything, but why not just not do it? Because it is a tradition and
:53:26. > :53:28.they are not blacking up fully. And I agree with Lester Holloway with
:53:29. > :53:35.what he was saying about the Padstow people, who do try and make out that
:53:36. > :53:40.they are back people. But the Alvechurch lot don't even remotely
:53:41. > :53:45.looked like black people. Now, you do Morris dancing. Do you black up
:53:46. > :53:50.your face? No, I belong to a different group and I am afraid I am
:53:51. > :53:52.a whitey. Thank you both for coming in.
:53:53. > :53:55.Now, I have bad news for fans of the more
:53:56. > :53:58.found standing at parliamentary elections and by-elections,
:53:59. > :54:01.often with little hope of winning, but high hopes of wearing silly
:54:02. > :54:05.Yes, Bus Pass Elvis, otherwise known as Lord Biro,
:54:06. > :54:08.leader of the Bus-pass Elvis Party, the Elvis Defence League,
:54:09. > :54:13.the Militant Elvis Anti-Tesco Popular Front
:54:14. > :54:16.and the Militant Elvis Anti-HS2 party - amongst others -
:54:17. > :54:19.is planning to hang up his bus pass and his jumpsuit
:54:20. > :54:24.Let's have a look at a few of the elections where he has tried
:54:25. > :55:00.Bishop, David Lawrence, Bus Pass Elvis Party, 67. Bishop, David
:55:01. > :55:10.Lawrence, Bus Pass Elvis Party, 87. Bishop, David Lawrence, Elvis loves
:55:11. > :55:17.pets party, 72 votes. Bishop, David Lawrence, Bus Pass Elvis Party, 61.
:55:18. > :55:29.Bishop, David Lawrence, Bus Pass Elvis Party, 85.
:55:30. > :55:32.And David Bishop - or should I call him Lord Biro -
:55:33. > :55:40.of the Bus Pass Elvis Party joins us now from Nottingham.
:55:41. > :55:47.Why did you decide to stand for the first time back in pattern in 1997?
:55:48. > :55:51.I was fed up with sitting in the pub, moaning about what was going on
:55:52. > :55:56.in the outside world and all the sleaze in cash for questions. So you
:55:57. > :56:01.put your money where your mouth was, literally. What was it like? That
:56:02. > :56:04.was an exciting election. It opened my eyes up to what was going on and
:56:05. > :56:10.it was probably the most exciting election I have ever stood in. I met
:56:11. > :56:14.Neil Hamilton not long ago, a couple of years back in Eastleigh, and he
:56:15. > :56:20.said to me, you look more respectable now. And I said, so do
:56:21. > :56:29.you! Somebody said to me, you should have said, don't go by what you see.
:56:30. > :56:34.But it was nice to see him again. For old times sake. Did you buy him
:56:35. > :56:40.a drink? No, he ought to have bought me one! He has more money than I
:56:41. > :56:44.have got. He is an MEP, isn't he? Or in the Welsh assembly. He is the
:56:45. > :56:49.leader of Ukip in the wash assembly. Have any of your policies been
:56:50. > :56:56.picked up or used by the main political parties? I think it has
:56:57. > :57:00.made people think about saving public lavatories from extinction. I
:57:01. > :57:04.think it has made people think, but I don't think the major parties have
:57:05. > :57:10.picked up on the things I stood for and I still think they are
:57:11. > :57:14.important. Which once? Well, saving public lavatories from extinction,
:57:15. > :57:19.saving rural buses from extinction, banning airguns, because pets get
:57:20. > :57:22.shot every day. I have been shot by an airgun where I live in
:57:23. > :57:27.Nottingham. Obviously, some of them are more frivolous, like banning the
:57:28. > :57:32.builder's bomb because it upsets old ladies. That made people laugh in
:57:33. > :57:37.Newark. Why are you giving it up? It all sounds like too much fun. Well,
:57:38. > :57:41.I am getting old, plus I don't want to become part of the electoral
:57:42. > :57:44.wallpaper, not him again and the rest of it. But I am still
:57:45. > :57:48.registered with the electoral commission. I am still going to
:57:49. > :57:54.campaign on issues that I believe in, like when I stood in Sleaford
:57:55. > :57:57.recently. I found all the red telephone boxes were going to be
:57:58. > :58:00.closed. One council so that everybody has got a MOBO and I
:58:01. > :58:06.thought that wasn't true, so I will still aim to go out to Skegness and
:58:07. > :58:11.a bit of campaigning. So you are not giving up. What was your highest
:58:12. > :58:16.voting tally? I got 320 votes when I stood for the militant Elvis
:58:17. > :58:22.anti-Tesco popular front in the local elections. That was the high
:58:23. > :58:24.point. Tesco were going to open the second biggest Tesco in the East
:58:25. > :58:30.Midlands, and there was an outcry from the local traders, so I decided
:58:31. > :58:34.to have a go with the slogan, Alvis wouldn't be seen dead in Tesco. And
:58:35. > :58:42.I got the most votes I have ever got. David Bishop, would you be
:58:43. > :58:46.sorry to see him go? Absolutely. The public lavatories policy is an
:58:47. > :58:47.absolute winner. David Bishop, enjoy your retirement and thanks for
:58:48. > :58:49.coming on. The One O'Clock News is starting
:58:50. > :58:53.over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow
:58:54. > :58:56.with Andrew for live coverage told through recordings
:58:57. > :59:08.he made over decades. Troubled, tragic,
:59:09. > :59:14.utterly compelling. Everybody's got a story to tell,
:59:15. > :59:18.something they're hiding.