:00:39. > :00:44.Any thoughts that Donald Trump was planning on toning
:00:45. > :00:48.down his style as he heads to the White House were banished
:00:49. > :00:51.yesterday as he answered head-on extraordinary allegations
:00:52. > :00:57.about Russian attempts to blackmail him.
:00:58. > :01:00.Mr Trump also went on the offensive against the media bigly,
:01:01. > :01:03.as he might say, and now seems to have gone to war with his own US
:01:04. > :01:09.Theresa May's claims that the NHS has more money than it asked
:01:10. > :01:11.for were challenged yesterday by the man who runs
:01:12. > :01:16.What's the truth of it, and is money the whole answer?
:01:17. > :01:18.We'll be paying tribute to Professor Anthony King,
:01:19. > :01:21.political expert and veteran of the BBC's election coverage
:01:22. > :01:26.for more than 20 years, following news of his death this
:01:27. > :01:41.Protest should ensure people coming here filling gaps in the labour
:01:42. > :01:42.market not taking jobs British people could do.
:01:43. > :01:44.And did this really amount to a 'hate incident'?
:01:45. > :01:47.The police apparently think so - we'll be joined by the man
:01:48. > :01:53.who complained about a speech by the Home Secretary.
:01:54. > :02:00.All that in the next hour, when we'll bring you more stories
:02:01. > :02:01.than a Donald Trump press conference.
:02:02. > :02:04.And joining us for the whole of the show, it's the former
:02:05. > :02:06.Conservative leader - he's now a Tory peer -
:02:07. > :02:17.The President-elect of the United States hadn't given
:02:18. > :02:19.a press conference for six months, and if we'd perhaps been
:02:20. > :02:23.beginning to forget just how different his style of politics
:02:24. > :02:25.is to the Washington consensus, then we were reminded
:02:26. > :02:31.In a free-wheeling and, at times, chaotic hour of taking
:02:32. > :02:34.and answering questions, he had plenty to say
:02:35. > :02:38.about what he intends to do with his business interests once
:02:39. > :02:41.he takes office, about his tax returns, job creation
:02:42. > :02:53.But the most explosive part was his response to allegations,
:02:54. > :02:56.so far unsubstantiated, but published in some media outlets
:02:57. > :02:57.that his election team colluded with Russia,
:02:58. > :03:00.and that Russia held compromising material about his private life.
:03:01. > :03:15.I saw the information, I read the information outside of that meeting.
:03:16. > :03:21.It is all fake news, it is phoney stuff, it didn't happen, and it was
:03:22. > :03:25.gotten by opponents of hours. Since you are attacking our news
:03:26. > :03:35.organisation... Your organisation is terrible. I think it is a disgrace
:03:36. > :03:40.and I say that and that is something Nazi Germany would have done and did
:03:41. > :03:45.do. I think it is a disgrace that information that was false and fake
:03:46. > :03:51.and never happened got released to the public as far as BuzzFeed, which
:03:52. > :03:58.is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they will suffer
:03:59. > :04:09.the consequences, they already are. Does anyone believe that story? I
:04:10. > :04:17.We're joined now by the foreign affairs analyst Tim Marshall.
:04:18. > :04:26.And by what some say will be the ambassador to the EU. It cannot be
:04:27. > :04:33.confirmed until it comes from his mouth. Tim Marshall, let's look at
:04:34. > :04:39.the providence of this stuff, particularly what BuzzFeed has been
:04:40. > :04:42.publishing. A company in Washington called Fusion GPS started by a
:04:43. > :04:48.journalist from the Wall Street Journal is hired by a billionaire
:04:49. > :04:54.Republican to gather dirt on Donald Trump to stop him becoming the
:04:55. > :05:00.Republican candidate. That fails. Rich Democrats pick up the contract
:05:01. > :05:05.from Fusion GPS because they want to stop him becoming president of the
:05:06. > :05:10.United States. The information is provided largely or compiled largely
:05:11. > :05:15.by a former British intelligence officer. This is paid for
:05:16. > :05:20.information that we cannot verify. Was it right to publish it? Probably
:05:21. > :05:27.not. And people that are desperate to believe it and want to believe
:05:28. > :05:30.it, especially the most lurid allegations, which has garnered all
:05:31. > :05:34.the attention, are desperate to believe it and I think their
:05:35. > :05:39.suspension of disbelief is suspended. Let me tell you a story,
:05:40. > :05:44.young reporter, 30, first time in Moscow, knock on the door, a young
:05:45. > :05:48.Natasha. I knew what was going on and I closed the door with her on
:05:49. > :05:52.the outside of it because the way they work, they try to get you on
:05:53. > :05:57.camera when you are younger and if you become a senior reporter they
:05:58. > :06:01.have something on you. I knew that at 30 years old. Do I believe Donald
:06:02. > :06:05.Trump will be in a Moscow hotel suite acting in that manner in his
:06:06. > :06:11.60s when he knows the way the world works? I don't. If that does not add
:06:12. > :06:18.up, and not does not add up. It was doing the rounds, what gave it some
:06:19. > :06:23.credibility was when it was distilled into two pages and the
:06:24. > :06:26.authorities thought, we need to show it to the president and President
:06:27. > :06:30.elect and that opened the floodgates. I can understand it
:06:31. > :06:36.being published but I ask people that view things through the otter
:06:37. > :06:40.dislike of Mr Trump, which, for give me, some of which I share, future
:06:41. > :06:48.ambassador to the EU! Yet to be confirmed. I am not a fan but I ask
:06:49. > :06:53.people to look at this story not through the prism of their dislike
:06:54. > :06:55.of this man but the prism of its reliability and if it was the same
:06:56. > :07:01.thing about President Obama, would you be thinking, this looks dodgy?
:07:02. > :07:06.This is what Mr Trump did with Mr Obama when he tried to make out he
:07:07. > :07:10.was not born in the United States. He is playing by the sword and dying
:07:11. > :07:14.by it but it does not make the allegations against him right. Let
:07:15. > :07:20.me come to the presumptive ambassador of somewhere, it could be
:07:21. > :07:31.Moldavia, you never know. Is this damaging Donald Trump? Yesterday, it
:07:32. > :07:36.was an incredible news conference. He comes out the winner, he looks
:07:37. > :07:44.confident, robust, he defends himself and he proves that the news
:07:45. > :07:47.media, some part of it, is trying to delegitimise his presidency and
:07:48. > :07:54.election and doing it by the use of fake news. If it is not fake news,
:07:55. > :08:00.and we don't know... Let me tell you what British intelligence told me.
:08:01. > :08:05.This person, who was MI6. It is Christopher Steele, who was also
:08:06. > :08:09.FBI, say he has an intelligence background, but he was paid by the
:08:10. > :08:19.people you have mentioned who were working for Jeb Bush. He kept adding
:08:20. > :08:25.to the dossier and using information given to him by the FSB in Russia,
:08:26. > :08:28.most of it fabricated, the more he put into the dossier of the more he
:08:29. > :08:35.got paid, so he made a sensationalist Bosnia and just like
:08:36. > :08:39.your lawyer charges you more hours to get paid more. You said most of
:08:40. > :08:46.it fabricated, what was not fabricated? I do not know what was
:08:47. > :08:50.fabricated. You do not know if most is fabricated? The salacious stuff
:08:51. > :08:55.we have read... Some of it might be true? It is true Mr Trump was in
:08:56. > :09:01.Moscow. For be Miss universe contest.
:09:02. > :09:11.Interesting, what British intelligence has been saying here.
:09:12. > :09:16.Why was Mr Steele so keen to get this out? I understand he sent it to
:09:17. > :09:22.Senator McCain, no friend of Donald Trump, he was touting it around and
:09:23. > :09:26.suddenly he says, gosh, I have to disappear, the Kremlin could now be
:09:27. > :09:35.after me. If he is a former MI6, he would have worked that out. We know
:09:36. > :09:45.what happened to Alexander Litvinenko. Poisoned in London. The
:09:46. > :09:49.former FBI man who took it to McCain, you can justify this in that
:09:50. > :09:54.if he genuinely feels this is swirling around about the future
:09:55. > :09:57.leader of the free world, it is necessary that the administration
:09:58. > :10:01.knows this stuff is swirling around and knows this is what people are
:10:02. > :10:08.saying, I think it is legitimate to have passed that on, legitimate for
:10:09. > :10:11.James Clapper to pass it on. Was it legitimate to be done in the way it
:10:12. > :10:18.was done? The intelligence services in America had a report for the
:10:19. > :10:24.president which they were going to share with Mr Trump and parts of
:10:25. > :10:31.Congress, which was their best intelligence on Russia's involvement
:10:32. > :10:36.in the US election. Authenticated, their work, they stood by it. It was
:10:37. > :10:44.a proper intelligence briefing for the oval office and two that they
:10:45. > :10:49.attached a 2-page summary of Mr Steele's 35 page report which they
:10:50. > :10:55.don't know whether it is gossip or anything, the Washington Post, no
:10:56. > :10:59.friend of Mr Trump, as it says, that devalues the intelligence that the
:11:00. > :11:06.president is getting. The New York Times has a similar approach. You
:11:07. > :11:10.can make the case that if this is swirling around, they need to be
:11:11. > :11:15.aware of it. When you are at the very top, you only know as much as
:11:16. > :11:18.the people below you tell you. Two things yesterday were overlooked
:11:19. > :11:24.which was Donald Trump shifting and saying it was the Russians he thinks
:11:25. > :11:28.who hacked originally and the other is Rex Tillerson, the incoming
:11:29. > :11:34.Secretary of State, evidence to the House, where his attitude, excuse
:11:35. > :11:39.me, the Senate, where it was so far away from what Donald Trump is said
:11:40. > :11:42.about Russia we either have a disconnect between the Secretary of
:11:43. > :11:51.State and incoming president or we saw the real US policy. This must've
:11:52. > :11:59.happened to you every day when you were Home Secretary, Michael? My
:12:00. > :12:08.memory must be playing the tricks. I cannot quite bring it to mind! We
:12:09. > :12:12.have the dossier at! I agree with what Tim has been saying, it may be
:12:13. > :12:18.entertaining in a way, it is not much to do with us. This man... As
:12:19. > :12:23.the United Kingdom? This man in eight days will be president of the
:12:24. > :12:28.most powerful country in the world and president of our most important
:12:29. > :12:31.ally. We have to do what we can to build good relations with the
:12:32. > :12:35.administration to try to influence them where we can, that is what we
:12:36. > :12:43.in this country should focus on. There is a serious undertone and
:12:44. > :12:48.that is that we know now from the BBC's Paul Wood, who has been
:12:49. > :12:55.well-informed in this, that on October 15 the US secret
:12:56. > :12:59.Intelligence Corps issued a warrant to investigate two Russian banks and
:13:00. > :13:04.had to do it because the CIA discovered, and that is not allowed
:13:05. > :13:09.theoretically to operate in the US itself, so joined with the FBI and
:13:10. > :13:14.other agencies to investigate if Russian money went into the Trump
:13:15. > :13:20.campaign and this is an ongoing investigation, a warrant issued by
:13:21. > :13:25.the US court. If that was true it would be illegal and a major problem
:13:26. > :13:32.for Mr Trump. It sound so, I do not know if it has been proven yet. It
:13:33. > :13:36.is being investigated. There are constant investigations about
:13:37. > :13:41.foreign entities dabbling in American... They are not allowed to
:13:42. > :13:44.finance? That is correct. This happened in previous elections where
:13:45. > :13:47.we discovered after the fact some governments have tried to have
:13:48. > :13:53.influence. That would be untoward and illegal. It would be dangerous
:13:54. > :13:59.for Mr Trump if it is true? Certainly. These hypotheticals. It
:14:00. > :14:04.would be dangerous if the Chinese or North Koreans did it. It is not
:14:05. > :14:10.hypothetical in the sense... We do not know if it happened but there
:14:11. > :14:16.are six US agencies involved in the investigation and a US court has
:14:17. > :14:22.issued a warrant. There is some thought, trying to step back from
:14:23. > :14:27.the lurid detail, that what is going on is all our emphasis is on Russia
:14:28. > :14:34.and Mr Trump's relationship or attitude to Russia, whereas the real
:14:35. > :14:39.story is his hard-line attitude to China and that came out in the Rex
:14:40. > :14:44.Tillerson hearings yesterday. That is probably more important. If these
:14:45. > :14:49.are true allegations they are devastating, but I do not see any
:14:50. > :14:53.reason to believe them and it is tittle tattle but the substantive
:14:54. > :14:59.stuff is what you say. Policy on Russia are laid out yesterday and
:15:00. > :15:05.policy on China. We may be heading and I say we, a major trade war with
:15:06. > :15:08.China. Led by the Trump administration. The Chinese will
:15:09. > :15:12.lose more but the Americans will lose and we will lose if they have a
:15:13. > :15:16.trade war and that is the tough stuff. We are worried about the
:15:17. > :15:19.Russian battalions on the Estonian border and we should be worried
:15:20. > :15:25.about what the Americans and Chinese are doing and yesterday the Chinese
:15:26. > :15:28.aircraft carrier sailed close to Taiwan, within its air
:15:29. > :15:32.identification zone, a deliberate push back to the Americans. The tie
:15:33. > :15:37.with the scramble jets and ships and went out to see them. They sending
:15:38. > :15:41.signals but it is that signal and more important, more than likely the
:15:42. > :15:45.trade war, that will impact our lives.
:15:46. > :15:51.President Obama told us at the start of the referendum campaign that the
:15:52. > :15:55.way forward for trade deals were multilateral regional block trade
:15:56. > :16:00.deals, and that if Britain left the EU we would be at the back of the
:16:01. > :16:08.queue for a bilateral deal. Could I suggest to you that he was wrong on
:16:09. > :16:13.both counts, that the future is now back to those deals, cheated is
:16:14. > :16:22.over, the Brent Celek 's elections will kill it dead -- TTIP is over. I
:16:23. > :16:25.have said all this in print, the UK is now at the front of the cube. You
:16:26. > :16:34.heard it here first. Good news? It is, if it happens, and
:16:35. > :16:37.I hope it will, but Tim is right, if the Trump Administration plunges the
:16:38. > :16:43.world into the kind of protectionism we saw in the nineteen 30s... Which
:16:44. > :16:46.was a Republican administration which did that. It would be
:16:47. > :16:51.disastrous for the whole world economy and for us as well as the
:16:52. > :17:00.United States and China. Would you want to work with Nigel Farage? I'm
:17:01. > :17:04.not a UK citizen, I don't belong to a political party... He is not an
:17:05. > :17:07.American citizen but thinks he can get a job there! I have had
:17:08. > :17:12.conversations with him on numerous occasions. Wherever you are
:17:13. > :17:16.Ambassador of, would you come back and speak to us? I would be glad to,
:17:17. > :17:21.I watch your show. Along with the Queen! Jeremy Corbyn
:17:22. > :17:25.has repeated his offer to Donald Trump to visit a London mosque with
:17:26. > :17:27.him as and when he comes over. I think that would be a very high
:17:28. > :17:29.priority. Let's turn our attention back
:17:30. > :17:32.to home now, and what is probably the biggest story of the week
:17:33. > :17:35.and the year so far, It was the focus at yesterday's
:17:36. > :17:39.Prime Minister's Questions, but probably the more significant
:17:40. > :17:42.moment came later on when the chief executive of NHS England appeared
:17:43. > :17:44.before the Public Accounts Committee and was asked about
:17:45. > :17:46.whether the health service You may remember the Prime Minister
:17:47. > :17:56.was asked about this at the weekend, and she said, "We asked the NHS
:17:57. > :17:59.a while back to set out what it needed over the next five years
:18:00. > :18:03.in terms of its plan for the future They did that -
:18:04. > :18:06.we gave them the funding. In fact, we gave them more
:18:07. > :18:09.funding than they required, so funding is now at record levels
:18:10. > :18:11.for the NHS." But yesterday Mr Stevens said that
:18:12. > :18:14.interpretation of the funding Well, it's right that, by 2020,
:18:15. > :18:21.NHS England will be getting an extra 10 billion over the course
:18:22. > :18:28.of six years. I don't think that's the same
:18:29. > :18:31.as saying we're getting more than we asked for over five years,
:18:32. > :18:35.because it was a five-year forward And, over and above that,
:18:36. > :18:39.we've obviously had a spending review negotiation in the meantime
:18:40. > :18:45.and that has set the NHS budget for the next three years,
:18:46. > :18:49.and it's a matter of fact, I've said it previously
:18:50. > :18:53.to Select Committee back in October that, like probably every part
:18:54. > :18:58.of the public service, we got less than we asked
:18:59. > :19:03.for in that process, and so I think it would be
:19:04. > :19:07.stretching it to say that the NHS And we're joined now
:19:08. > :19:15.by Saffron Cordery, who's the director of policy at NHS
:19:16. > :19:18.Providers, which is the public voice We did ask to speak to a minister
:19:19. > :19:31.from the Department of Health, Welcome to the programme. The Royal
:19:32. > :19:34.College of Nursing and the Royal College of physicians say conditions
:19:35. > :19:36.in the NHS are the worst their members have experienced. The
:19:37. > :19:41.opposition has said there is a crisis in the NHS and the Government
:19:42. > :19:44.is in denial, but yesterday the Prime Minister maintained the real
:19:45. > :19:49.problems are confined to a few areas. Which is it in your mind, is
:19:50. > :19:52.it a national crisis or a handful of struggling first? You might expect
:19:53. > :20:06.me to say this, but I think it is somewhere between the two. What
:20:07. > :20:10.we are seeing is extreme pressure in hospitals up and down the country,
:20:11. > :20:12.we have heard talk about trolley waits and talk about people facing
:20:13. > :20:15.some really difficult situations, whether you are a member of staff or
:20:16. > :20:18.a patient in A, but what I would say is that NHS trusts are really
:20:19. > :20:21.stretching every sinew to make sure that they manage the pressure on
:20:22. > :20:24.them. I don't think it is the humanitarian crisis that we heard
:20:25. > :20:29.talked at the weekend from the Red Cross, but what we can't deny is the
:20:30. > :20:39.fact that there is severe pressure out there and there is a funding
:20:40. > :20:43.shortfall for the NHS. Spiralling demand is what some NHS trusts have
:20:44. > :20:47.said, where has that come from? It is spiralling demand and it comes
:20:48. > :20:51.from many, many places. We have seen things like social care cut to such
:20:52. > :20:54.a level that people are not receiving the care they need in
:20:55. > :20:58.their own homes, which means the severity of their conditions might
:20:59. > :21:03.increase so they are more likely to turn up at A Also things like
:21:04. > :21:07.cuts in local authority services for things like drug and alcohol
:21:08. > :21:25.services, which means people who need those
:21:26. > :21:29.services, perhaps people with mental health conditions, are turning up at
:21:30. > :21:31.a D because they are not receiving the preventative support they need,
:21:32. > :21:34.so we see it coming from all sources. Also we have to look at
:21:35. > :21:37.things like GP care, so when people cannot get an appointment with their
:21:38. > :21:39.GP, and we know how difficult that is up and down the country, when
:21:40. > :21:42.they cannot get an appointment they often turn up at A, so there are
:21:43. > :21:45.many sources. Could the demand have been better anticipated by some of
:21:46. > :21:47.the hospital trust? I think it is a very, very difficult position, a
:21:48. > :21:49.very complex picture, and it is hard to anticipate the level of demand
:21:50. > :21:54.increases when they are already running at such a high level, so
:21:55. > :21:57.even if you anticipate that demand, when you reach 100%, you reach 100%,
:21:58. > :22:19.it is impossible to run at 105% capacity, so that is
:22:20. > :22:21.a difficult question to answer. Theresa May said yesterday at Prime
:22:22. > :22:23.Minister's Questions that there have only been a small number of
:22:24. > :22:25.incidents in which unacceptable practices have taken place, evidence
:22:26. > :22:27.of people being left on trolleys for hours and hours, some people dying
:22:28. > :22:30.on them unfortunately in hospital corridors. Is that a fair
:22:31. > :22:33.assessment, that it is only a small number of incidents? I think it is
:22:34. > :22:36.fair that it is only a small number of severe incidents, but what is not
:22:37. > :22:39.acceptable to anyone in the NHS or any patient turning up to a D is
:22:40. > :22:41.the fact that we are now in a situation where trusts are not
:22:42. > :22:46.meeting the 95% of patients being seen in four hours target, it is
:22:47. > :22:49.about 70 to 80% at the moment, lover in many places, and that is not
:22:50. > :22:54.acceptable, it is a constitutional target that trusts should meet.
:22:55. > :22:59.Michael Howard, listening to Saffron Cordery, if you take on board what
:23:00. > :23:05.she says, do you accept that at this stage when many trusts have reached
:23:06. > :23:09.100% capacity with many others just below, 95 to 100%, that more money
:23:10. > :23:15.is now urgently needed? No, because if you talk about now what is
:23:16. > :23:21.clearly beyond dispute, as Sieben Stevens has accepted, the ?4 billion
:23:22. > :23:28.extra funding I think is 4 million this year, is what the NHS after
:23:29. > :23:31.four... He is very clear between now and 2020 what he asked for, but
:23:32. > :23:35.needed now to prevent a further crisis in future years... Let's talk
:23:36. > :23:39.about future years and the possibility of future crises. The
:23:40. > :23:44.Prime Minister was right to emphasise the fact that it is a
:23:45. > :23:47.minority of trusts which are finding it extraordinarily difficult to deal
:23:48. > :23:53.with these extreme pressures, and that it was very important to spread
:23:54. > :23:59.best practice across the NHS. Let me give you two specific examples. I
:24:00. > :24:02.have the privilege of chairing Hospice UK, the umbrella
:24:03. > :24:07.organisation for our hospices. We have a plan which we are about to
:24:08. > :24:12.test which would enable us to take out of hospital before they died
:24:13. > :24:17.50,000 of the 250,000 people who died in hospital every year, many of
:24:18. > :24:21.them don't want to die in hospital, don't need to die in hospital, and
:24:22. > :24:26.should not die in hospital. That would relieve pressure on beds.
:24:27. > :24:30.Another example, in Cardiff Bay have a treatment centre for people who
:24:31. > :24:34.have had too much to drink, so people who have had too much to
:24:35. > :24:38.drink are referred to that centre, not accident and emergency, they
:24:39. > :24:41.don't add to the pressure in accident and emergency, they don't
:24:42. > :24:46.make life difficult for the staff and other patients, and what I think
:24:47. > :24:49.is necessary, what the NHS should be better at, is spreading best
:24:50. > :24:53.practice, taking advantage of initiatives of this kind and making
:24:54. > :24:58.sure that the money is much better spent. But they cannot do that
:24:59. > :25:03.because there have been cuts to council services, and I take the
:25:04. > :25:08.preset... They do it in Cardiff. Councils themselves say they have
:25:09. > :25:13.had to cut the kind of care that leads to the bottleneck at A How
:25:14. > :25:17.do you answer those points, that the kind of best practice he has
:25:18. > :25:23.outlined could be spread more widely across the NHS? I have two points to
:25:24. > :25:27.make, it is ?3.7 billion this year and Simon Stevens was clear in
:25:28. > :25:29.saying that unless there is significant extra investment in
:25:30. > :25:34.social care and broader services then this would not be enough, and
:25:35. > :25:39.it is important to take that on board. In terms of beds, best
:25:40. > :25:42.practice, we are seeing NHS trusts up and down the country working with
:25:43. > :25:47.partners, the voluntary sector, other bits of the public sector to
:25:48. > :25:53.put those schemes into place but it takes time, and to really transform
:25:54. > :25:57.services takes time. What we need to do is double running, fun and what
:25:58. > :26:02.we have got there and fund investment in transformation. There
:26:03. > :26:06.has been some briefing against Simon Stevens in the newspapers, has he
:26:07. > :26:09.been treated unfairly by Number Ten? At a time of extreme stress and
:26:10. > :26:14.pressure in the NHS when everyone is doing everything they can, I don't
:26:15. > :26:19.think it is fair at this point, or acceptable, to focus the blame on
:26:20. > :26:24.NHS leaders and, by extension, NHS staff and the patients that turn up
:26:25. > :26:27.at A What we have to see is maybe standing back on this and starting
:26:28. > :26:38.to look at the problem in hand, which is demand going through the
:26:39. > :26:41.roof, nowhere to divert patients to, and we need to start preventing some
:26:42. > :26:43.of these problems from arising, rather than starting to call for
:26:44. > :26:45.people to look at their own position. And you think it was
:26:46. > :26:48.Number Ten that has been briefing against him? I don't have any
:26:49. > :26:48.information on that. Thank you very much.
:26:49. > :26:50.Now, who remembers the EU referendum?
:26:51. > :26:59.Well, in case you had, too, here are some of our favourite moments.
:27:00. > :27:02.And I will go to Parliament and propose that the British people
:27:03. > :27:06.MUSIC: Should I Stay Or Should I Go? by the Clash.
:27:07. > :27:16.I'm actually ringing you from the Vote Leave campaign.
:27:17. > :27:22.It's nonsense, it's not true. I couldn't be clearer than that.
:27:23. > :27:26.Why should they tell us how powerful our vacuum cleaners should be?
:27:27. > :27:33.Why should they tell us how powerful our hairdryers should be?
:27:34. > :27:38.The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
:27:39. > :27:41.Britain will be permanently poorer if we left the European Union.
:27:42. > :27:44.The shock to our economy after leaving Europe will tip
:27:45. > :27:49.They have done this in order to scare the pants off
:27:50. > :27:55.The UK asparagus will be just as sprouting, just as delicious,
:27:56. > :28:02.The European Union, many warts and all, has proved itself to be
:28:03. > :28:25.If we vote Leave and take back control, I believe that this
:28:26. > :28:27.Thursday could be our country's Independence Day.
:28:28. > :28:36.Ah, it seems like it was only last summer.
:28:37. > :28:43.It was. Oh, right there you go!
:28:44. > :28:46.Well, we're going to reflect a little on the referendum campaign
:28:47. > :28:49.now, and look ahead to what might happen once the Brexit process has
:28:50. > :28:51.really begun with two pivotal figures from the Leave
:28:52. > :28:58.It's Paul Stephenson - he worked on the victorious
:28:59. > :29:03.And James McGrory, who worked on the not-so-victorious
:29:04. > :29:17.Let me come to the victor first, what is the single biggest reason
:29:18. > :29:20.why you one, looking back? I think the renegotiation, the failure of
:29:21. > :29:24.the renegotiation to deliver anything that was sellable on the
:29:25. > :29:27.doorsteps to the British people. The British people have been sceptical
:29:28. > :29:31.of the EU for a long time, only about a third of the public really
:29:32. > :29:34.like the EU and want to stay in regardless, and a whole bunch of
:29:35. > :29:36.people in the middle that both campaigns were chasing, the swing
:29:37. > :29:49.vote, needed to be convinced, and one way
:29:50. > :29:52.to convince them was to scare them about the consequences of change,
:29:53. > :29:55.the other way was to get a good deal out of Europe. Lots of people like
:29:56. > :29:57.me were in favour of reform who might have been convinced by a
:29:58. > :30:01.better deal but when you are forced into a binary choice, it is, if this
:30:02. > :30:03.is what is on the table, let's go for God. What do you think was the
:30:04. > :30:07.biggest reason that you lost? I think what Paul said, especially
:30:08. > :30:11.when there was 30 years of almost unchallenged Euroscepticism in this
:30:12. > :30:13.country that had been allowed to take hold and people on my side of
:30:14. > :30:17.the argument have to take responsibility for not challenging
:30:18. > :30:21.that in the decades running up to the referendum. When you had such
:30:22. > :30:26.clear messages about money, border and laws, which the Leave campaign
:30:27. > :30:31.did, trying to counter them in, what, six months, without anything
:30:32. > :30:34.new to show that European reform was a big deal that was going to be able
:30:35. > :30:40.to deliver, changes that people wanted, made it difficult.
:30:41. > :30:45.There are always mistakes made in campaigns, looking back, were their
:30:46. > :30:51.mistakes you made that if you had not made them, the campaign, would
:30:52. > :30:55.have made a difference? You cannot point to one single finger and say
:30:56. > :31:00.if we did this differently we would have won, there were too many
:31:01. > :31:06.different factors involved. The fact that our campaign was reluctant to
:31:07. > :31:09.attack the Leave campaign in the same way the Leave campaign were
:31:10. > :31:15.perfectly ready to attack our campaign did not help. Was it a blue
:31:16. > :31:19.on blue problem? It was, coming from Downing Street, and I understand the
:31:20. > :31:22.reasons, there were political reasons why they wanted to keep the
:31:23. > :31:27.party together afterwards but sometimes it was like bringing a
:31:28. > :31:32.spoon to a knife fight. I think they were right because it was when
:31:33. > :31:35.Downing Street authorised attacks on people like Boris Johnson and
:31:36. > :31:40.Michael Gove and suddenly these people realised they were in a death
:31:41. > :31:44.match. The Prime Minister and Chancellor's language was severe
:31:45. > :31:47.throughout the campaign. They said people were economically literature
:31:48. > :31:53.and half the MPs were threatening World War III. I take the point that
:31:54. > :31:57.when they started going for senior figures, they got John Major and
:31:58. > :31:59.Michael Heseltine out to attack people on our campaign that people
:32:00. > :32:04.like Boris and Michael foot they needed to go on the attack. What are
:32:05. > :32:10.your thoughts, Michael? I am more interested in the future. It is a
:32:11. > :32:17.huge historic event. I agree, David Cameron and his Bloomberg speech
:32:18. > :32:22.saying he was setting out to achieve fundamental reform of the European
:32:23. > :32:28.Union. If he had got it, like Paul, I would have been on his side in the
:32:29. > :32:31.referendum campaign, but the deal he brought back was so inadequate, it
:32:32. > :32:39.was barely mentioned during the campaign. No one could say... In my
:32:40. > :32:43.experience, it was not mentioned. Nobody could say look at this
:32:44. > :32:48.wonderful deal it was a dreadful deal. The same is true of Harold
:32:49. > :32:53.Wilson in 75 when he brought back a deal barely mentioned and he won. He
:32:54. > :32:56.did but it was a different time and different European community and I
:32:57. > :33:01.think there is a limit to which you can draw parallels. Who was the hero
:33:02. > :33:14.of your campaign? The single most important person? Can I have three?
:33:15. > :33:17.No. I would say Boris. Will Straw deserves credit for running a
:33:18. > :33:24.professional campaign. Bringing parties together without falling
:33:25. > :33:28.out. Let's look forward. Is it not clear although the government will
:33:29. > :33:33.not quite say it, but the Prime Minister came close on Sky News the
:33:34. > :33:37.weekend, that we will not be members of the single market, and the
:33:38. > :33:42.argument will be how much access will we have and on what terms, but
:33:43. > :33:48.it will not be membership and therefore the access cannot be as
:33:49. > :33:53.great as membership and the question is is it 90%, 70% of what we have
:33:54. > :33:59.now? That is at the crux of negotiations? I think so. People
:34:00. > :34:04.accept we will leave the debate now is whether we stay in the customs
:34:05. > :34:08.union and get benefits of free trade deals with countries like America,
:34:09. > :34:13.and what length of transition period and will there be one and what
:34:14. > :34:18.length? Beyond the two years? Correct, if we leave the customs
:34:19. > :34:23.union and single market there is an argument for having a transitional
:34:24. > :34:28.deal of two, five years that allows you to move from one complicated
:34:29. > :34:32.system to another. Do you accept that although there will be an
:34:33. > :34:38.argument over the degree of access to the single market, we will not be
:34:39. > :34:42.members in the way we are now? It is interesting the government have not
:34:43. > :34:47.ruled it out. They have been given ample opportunity to do so. You have
:34:48. > :34:53.to consider whether it is on the table because it is the best trading
:34:54. > :34:56.model available. I think signs are there that is the direction of
:34:57. > :35:02.travel the government is headed and if so, we are in a phoney debate
:35:03. > :35:06.between in and out and the points you make are right, what is the
:35:07. > :35:10.degree of access and if there is less Access, who are the winners and
:35:11. > :35:16.losers under any free trade agreement? You cannot have full
:35:17. > :35:20.access without membership therefore you will have losers, which will
:35:21. > :35:23.mean real impact on some sectors and a debate about who the winners and
:35:24. > :35:31.losers will be. What is your view? We must leave, it is not called the
:35:32. > :35:34.single market, it is called the internal market and the clue is in
:35:35. > :35:37.the name and if we leave the EU we cannot be part of the internal
:35:38. > :35:43.market or single market and I do not believe we should be members of the
:35:44. > :35:49.customs union. I do not think it is a question of negotiating 90%
:35:50. > :35:53.access, 80% access, I think it's basically a choice between two
:35:54. > :36:00.models. One which will be in the interests of the EU and of the UK,
:36:01. > :36:04.which would be to have free trade in goods and access for services on the
:36:05. > :36:09.basis of equivalence of regulation, something like that, that would be
:36:10. > :36:14.the best, that is in their interests as well. If they are not interested
:36:15. > :36:21.in that and want to somehow punish us, we should say we are very happy
:36:22. > :36:27.with WTO rules, we can trade with you perfectly happily on that basis
:36:28. > :36:32.and what's more, if that is what you want, we will have six, 12 months
:36:33. > :36:37.after we leave when we will give you free access and then you can decide,
:36:38. > :36:40.the onus is on you, do you want to follow our lead and have free
:36:41. > :36:46.access, or do you want to put up tariffs, in which case we will too.
:36:47. > :36:50.In the campaign you were credited with coming up with policies that
:36:51. > :36:53.could be implemented if we left the European Union, things like an
:36:54. > :37:01.Australian style points system on migration and more money for NHS and
:37:02. > :37:06.cutting VAT on energy bills. These were discussed, but it is clear from
:37:07. > :37:11.the Theresa May government that of course the Brexit campaign had no
:37:12. > :37:17.authority to promise these things. It hasn't happened. It has not
:37:18. > :37:20.happened but those people at the top of the Leave campaign went into a
:37:21. > :37:24.leadership campaign they lost and Theresa May does not feel obligated
:37:25. > :37:28.to do what we set out in the policy platform, which is a shame will stop
:37:29. > :37:36.I think the government will give more money to the NHS. They would
:37:37. > :37:39.have had to do that anyway. The OBR identifies money coming back from
:37:40. > :37:46.the EU and it should be spent on the NHS. Are you reconciled now to us
:37:47. > :37:52.leaving the EU, or do you still think there may be ways, once the
:37:53. > :37:56.deal is done for example, perhaps a push for another referendum, that it
:37:57. > :38:02.could be stopped? That is not what we are arguing for, but I think MPs
:38:03. > :38:06.should be given a say on the deal in the same way they would be given a
:38:07. > :38:11.vote on the triggering of Article 50. David Davis said it would be
:38:12. > :38:18.inconceivable they wouldn't. If the European Parliament also had. But in
:38:19. > :38:22.your mind, it is on what terms we leave rather than stopping it? I
:38:23. > :38:26.think we are leaving but we should have a frank debate about the terms
:38:27. > :38:30.without being shouted down and saying you are a democracy denier
:38:31. > :38:34.and trying to frustrate the will of the people because you make the case
:38:35. > :38:38.for the single market, the customs union, any of those things. We need
:38:39. > :38:41.to debate that moves beyond remain and leave. No shouting down here. We
:38:42. > :38:44.will end our mature debate. Now, our guest of the day
:38:45. > :38:46.Michael Howard was of course Home Secretary under John Major,
:38:47. > :38:49.and if there is one phrase from his time in office that has
:38:50. > :38:52.stuck in the public's mind then it But, since then, the Conservative
:38:53. > :38:56.Party has taken some quite different views on what prison is for,
:38:57. > :38:59.and how many people should be in it - questions that have again been
:39:00. > :39:02.thrust into the spotlight following recent disturbances
:39:03. > :39:03.in English jails. Strangeways, Manchester,
:39:04. > :39:13.27 years ago. Two people died and ?60 million
:39:14. > :39:16.of damage was caused in the riots. Overcrowding and harsh
:39:17. > :39:19.conditions were blamed. Three years after the Strangeways
:39:20. > :39:27.riots, the new Home Secretary, Michael Howard, told his party
:39:28. > :39:32.conference that he wanted to lock more criminals up and keep them
:39:33. > :39:37.in austere conditions. It ensures that we are protected
:39:38. > :39:45.from murderers, muggers and rapists, and it makes many who are tempted
:39:46. > :39:52.to commit crime think twice. Michael Howard's "prison works"
:39:53. > :39:54.speech without doubt hit a nerve and it offered an apparently very
:39:55. > :40:01.powerful answer to the problem From then on, the prison
:40:02. > :40:09.population grew. This continued under
:40:10. > :40:11.New Labour, who also wanted Crime fell, but when Ken Clarke
:40:12. > :40:16.became the Justice Secretary under the coalition government,
:40:17. > :40:17.he turned years of Conservative Too often prison has proved a costly
:40:18. > :40:25.and ineffectual approach that fails to turn criminals
:40:26. > :40:33.into law-abiding citizens. Since 2010 we've seen a bit
:40:34. > :40:36.of a kind of ambivalent shift between different justice ministers
:40:37. > :40:38.and different governments. So under the coalition government,
:40:39. > :40:43.you had Ken Clarke gently trying to drive the prison population down
:40:44. > :40:45.a little bit, then his successor, Chris Grayling, showed
:40:46. > :40:47.no interest in that. Under this government,
:40:48. > :40:53.if you commit a crime, you are more likely to be caught
:40:54. > :40:56.and charged, you are more likely to go to prison,
:40:57. > :40:59.you will go there for longer, and it will cost the hard-working
:41:00. > :41:04.taxpayer less to keep you there. But, under his watch, a series
:41:05. > :41:06.of reports highlighted rising Then there was another
:41:07. > :41:11.change, when Michael Gove He wanted to bring the focus back
:41:12. > :41:16.to the rehabilitation revolution It's because I'm a Conservative I
:41:17. > :41:25.believe evil must be punished, but it is also because I'm
:41:26. > :41:28.a Conservative and a Christian that After the EU referendum,
:41:29. > :41:32.the new Prime Minister, Theresa May, gave Liz Truss the justice brief
:41:33. > :41:34.and her challenges include overcrowding,
:41:35. > :41:38.understaffing and riots. She's promised the biggest reform
:41:39. > :41:42.of the system in a generation. My starting point is refocusing
:41:43. > :41:47.the system so that everyone is clear that safety and rehabilitation
:41:48. > :41:51.is the purpose of the prison system, setting this out for the first
:41:52. > :41:54.time ever in statute. But some feel the government
:41:55. > :41:58.is still failing to address Both Labour and Conservative
:41:59. > :42:05.politicians have made the mistake of allowing sentence length
:42:06. > :42:08.to increase, so they are always Our prisons have never been
:42:09. > :42:11.resourced to the degree that they need to be to do
:42:12. > :42:14.what all parties want, which is they should be
:42:15. > :42:16.places of rehabilitation Soon after the recent riots,
:42:17. > :42:23.two former Home Secretaries and the former Deputy Prime Minister
:42:24. > :42:27.called for the prison population to be halved
:42:28. > :42:30.to the level it was at before But the jury is out on how long it
:42:31. > :42:35.would take to achieve this and how much public appetite
:42:36. > :42:40.there is see this happen. Michael Howard, author
:42:41. > :42:52.of the "prison works" We heard from the Prison Reform
:42:53. > :42:55.Trust that says it has been a mistake by Conservative and Labour
:42:56. > :43:05.governments to allow prison sentence length to increase, is he right? No,
:43:06. > :43:09.look, you can argue and I would strongly dispute that perhaps the
:43:10. > :43:14.prison population as it is today is a little bit too high, much higher
:43:15. > :43:18.than it was when I left office, but what this discussion all too often
:43:19. > :43:23.fails to take into account is the relationship between the prison
:43:24. > :43:29.population and crime. It is true the prison population has increased
:43:30. > :43:33.since I was Home Secretary. And recorded crime, crime according to
:43:34. > :43:37.the British crime survey has fallen by two thirds. Why is there a high
:43:38. > :43:40.prison population? Because the people who would otherwise be
:43:41. > :43:44.committing the crimes cannot commit them because they are in prison.
:43:45. > :43:50.There is often confusion. Or they should not be there with the first
:43:51. > :43:54.place or as long, which is what the Prison Reform Trust says? I do not
:43:55. > :44:00.agree. When I said prison works I did not been in the sense it should
:44:01. > :44:06.rehabilitate people. I am all for rehabilitation but nobody has found
:44:07. > :44:08.the best way to achieve rehabilitation and offending and
:44:09. > :44:14.reoffending rates for people sentenced in the community, not sent
:44:15. > :44:21.to prison, are also far too high, so rehabilitation I am in favour of, it
:44:22. > :44:25.is a very difficult nut to crack. Meanwhile, when you have serious
:44:26. > :44:29.professional criminals who are wreaking havoc on the community in
:44:30. > :44:34.which they live, you can prevent them continuing to commit crimes by
:44:35. > :44:39.putting them in prison so that they cannot continue to commit those
:44:40. > :44:43.crimes. You say it is a hard nut to crack but were you willing to look
:44:44. > :44:48.at the idea of rehabilitation, putting it at the centre in the way
:44:49. > :44:51.Ken Clarke would say he tried to do and perhaps arguably Michael Gove
:44:52. > :44:56.and Liz Truss are trying to do now, whereas you and Chris Grayling
:44:57. > :45:01.concentrated more on rhetoric. It was more about locking up people,
:45:02. > :45:05.punishing people and rehabilitation was a secondary thought. It was not
:45:06. > :45:11.just rhetoric because the prison population did rise and crime fell.
:45:12. > :45:15.My main objective was to stop the rising crime. When I became Home
:45:16. > :45:18.Secretary I was told crime had risen by an average of 50% for the
:45:19. > :45:22.previous 50 years and there was nothing I could do about it and I
:45:23. > :45:30.was determined to do something about it and I did so crime fell by 18% in
:45:31. > :45:33.the four years I was Home Secretary. I was also keen on improving
:45:34. > :45:36.education and we spend more on education in prisons when I was Home
:45:37. > :45:41.Secretary because that is a key to rehabilitation.
:45:42. > :45:50.You say you think the prison population is too high... I do, I
:45:51. > :45:54.don't know... You said it may be too high, we can debate whether it is
:45:55. > :45:58.too high or not but the prison system is in some sort of crisis,
:45:59. > :46:01.there are overcrowded jails and understaffing of resources and we
:46:02. > :46:05.have seen outbreaks of violence. Would you say the prison system as
:46:06. > :46:10.it is currently does not work any more? I certainly wouldn't say that.
:46:11. > :46:14.You do need to build more prison places if the population continues
:46:15. > :46:18.to rise, and when I was Home Secretary we set out a programme for
:46:19. > :46:24.building more prisons. I entirely accept that. But they have not come
:46:25. > :46:29.on board, Chris Grayling announced a seven wood close in 2013, two more
:46:30. > :46:35.partially shut, the new ones will not come on board until February and
:46:36. > :46:39.2020. There is a gap of six or seven years and the prison population is
:46:40. > :46:44.rising, that is a mistake in the planning? You have got to try to
:46:45. > :46:48.keep the rising places in pace with rising population, but it is judges
:46:49. > :46:51.who send people to prison, not politicians, and it is the judges
:46:52. > :46:56.who determine the length of sentences. All right.
:46:57. > :47:02.Now, according to the Crown Prosecution Service,
:47:03. > :47:05.a hate incident is "any incident which the victim, or anyone else,
:47:06. > :47:07.thinks is based on someone's prejudice towards them
:47:08. > :47:09.because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability
:47:10. > :47:13.British businesses have driven the economic recovery
:47:14. > :47:18.in this country with, employment at record levels.
:47:19. > :47:21.However, we still need to do more so all British people get
:47:22. > :47:26.the opportunities they need to get on in life.
:47:27. > :47:29.The tests should ensure people coming here are filling gaps
:47:30. > :47:31.in the labour market, not taking jobs that
:47:32. > :47:35.But it's become a tick-box exercise, allowing some firms to get away
:47:36. > :47:44.We won't win in the world if we don't do more
:47:45. > :47:50.It's not fair on companies doing the right thing,
:47:51. > :47:53.so I want us to look again at whether our immigration system
:47:54. > :47:55.provides the right incentives for businesses to invest
:47:56. > :48:01.That was Amber Rudd speaking at last year's Conservative conference.
:48:02. > :48:03.Journalists were told after her speech that a consultation
:48:04. > :48:05.paper would include an option to require companies
:48:06. > :48:08.to publish the proportion of international staff they employ.
:48:09. > :48:11.She was fairly roundly criticised, with Labour accusing her of "fanning
:48:12. > :48:16.Well, we learn from this morning's Times that one
:48:17. > :48:18.academic was so concerned about the implications
:48:19. > :48:21.of the Home Secretary's speech that he reported it to the police,
:48:22. > :48:23.and, under a new policy approved by Amber Rudd,
:48:24. > :48:31.it has been recorded as a "hate incident".
:48:32. > :48:37.The complainant is Joshua Silver, and he joins us now
:48:38. > :48:42.Welcome to the programme. At the Tory conference, the speech of which
:48:43. > :48:46.you complained, she said, we need to do more so all British people get
:48:47. > :48:51.the opportunities they need to get on in life, the test should ensure
:48:52. > :48:55.people coming here are filling gaps in the labour market, not taking
:48:56. > :49:07.jobs British people could do. In what conceivable way was that a
:49:08. > :49:15.hate speech? What I had been looking at is to what extent statements made
:49:16. > :49:22.by senior politicians about foreigners can be interpreted as
:49:23. > :49:32.some sort of mechanism, if you like, to help foster the idea in the
:49:33. > :49:36.country against the EU. That is a broad brush approach, and I
:49:37. > :49:45.understand that, but what was hateful about Amber Rudd's speech,
:49:46. > :49:50.on these words? Well, you just picked a few words... That is the
:49:51. > :49:56.key part of the speech from the briefing later talked about... What
:49:57. > :50:04.would be hateful about looking at companies... It is discriminating
:50:05. > :50:07.against, picking on foreigners? Why is it picking on foreigners to say
:50:08. > :50:12.people should be able to get on in life? She did say that she would
:50:13. > :50:16.keep lists of foreigners. That is not what the briefing was, I was at
:50:17. > :50:22.the conference, it was a press report that said that. Well, I
:50:23. > :50:27.certainly picked up, the press report was not accurate. What the
:50:28. > :50:30.briefing was, we had people at the briefing, it was an option, didn't
:50:31. > :50:35.happen in the end, but it was an option to look at a breakdown of
:50:36. > :50:38.companies of what percentage of foreign-born workforce they were
:50:39. > :50:44.employing and British-born, roughly an idea that Ed Miliband had
:50:45. > :50:49.proposed himself several years ago. You are a physicist, right, at
:50:50. > :50:53.Oxford? A Labour economist may well find that information very useful to
:50:54. > :51:00.work out where we are failing to give people already in this country
:51:01. > :51:04.of all hues and ethnicities and colours the proper skills. What is
:51:05. > :51:09.hateful about it? Keeping lists of foreigners is something... But that
:51:10. > :51:16.is not what was proposed. You just said it was. No, the proposal was,
:51:17. > :51:22.it was an option that was never done, was to find out if a company
:51:23. > :51:27.was employing 25% migrants or 30... What do you mean it was an option,
:51:28. > :51:32.what are you saying? It was an option, they didn't proceed. But
:51:33. > :51:39.they floated it. Did you watch the speech? No, but I read the draft and
:51:40. > :51:45.read all the feedback. But it was the speech you complained about?
:51:46. > :51:49.Yes. So you complained about a speech you haven't watched? I have
:51:50. > :51:52.read it carefully and looked at the feedback. I understand the feedback,
:51:53. > :51:57.politicians and sometimes journalists can't believe the
:51:58. > :52:04.feedback in itself. I'm still trying to find out what is hateful about
:52:05. > :52:10.the remarks... It is discriminating against foreigners, that is what it
:52:11. > :52:13.is about. Why? Because you pick on them and say, we want to give jobs
:52:14. > :52:18.to British people and not foreigners. That is not what she
:52:19. > :52:21.said. She simply wanted to find out if there are skills shortages and we
:52:22. > :52:25.are bringing people into do these jobs because our people don't have
:52:26. > :52:31.them, why would you not want to give British people the skills? It can be
:52:32. > :52:34.interpreted that way. The police in the end did not do a formal
:52:35. > :52:43.investigation but did recorded as a hate incident. Yes. Was this a hate
:52:44. > :52:52.incident? Michael Howard, I was asking you. Of course it wasn't. I
:52:53. > :52:55.think, you cited Ed Miliband, what Amber Rudd said was no different to
:52:56. > :52:58.what Gordon Brown said when he was Prime Minister, that there should be
:52:59. > :53:02.British jobs for British workers. That was much more expert is! It
:53:03. > :53:08.was, and nothing was done about it. I think Mr Silber should be
:53:09. > :53:11.thoroughly ashamed of himself, because what he's doing is to bring
:53:12. > :53:17.a piece of well-intentioned legislation into disrepute. The
:53:18. > :53:22.meaning behind the legislation is very important. It is meant to deal
:53:23. > :53:27.with hate crimes and Mr Silver, who has been unable to justify what he
:53:28. > :53:30.has done in the face of your questioning, is bring dingbat
:53:31. > :53:34.legislation into disrepute. I will give you a quick response,
:53:35. > :53:38.Professor. The response of the public was that this was
:53:39. > :53:46.discriminating. Have you made other complaint about politicians'
:53:47. > :53:50.speeches? Well, no, I'm not a typical, normal complainant but I
:53:51. > :53:57.have also looked at one of the statement, a statement made by Mrs
:53:58. > :54:05.May. Mrs May stated that she... Very briefly. Mrs May said she was in
:54:06. > :54:09.effect going to expel all foreign doctors. And that was also picked
:54:10. > :54:14.up. We are going to leave it there, I don't run by Mrs May saying that,
:54:15. > :54:16.but if you take it forward I will look forward to it. Thank you very
:54:17. > :54:17.much. Now, some sad news this morning
:54:18. > :54:20.as we learned of the death of Professor Anthony King,
:54:21. > :54:22.one of Britain's leading experts He helped us understand electoral
:54:23. > :54:31.trends, the opinion polls and political history,
:54:32. > :54:34.and for more than 20 years helped Let's look back at some of his most
:54:35. > :54:42.memorable contributions. Conservatives are deeply
:54:43. > :54:46.schizophrenic about the Labour Party. On the one hand they don't
:54:47. > :54:51.like the idea of red in tooth and claw socialism but they also believe
:54:52. > :54:54.they are the party to beat so they find it difficult to make up their
:54:55. > :54:57.minds on this issue, quite understandably.
:54:58. > :55:00.Even if our forecast did not exist I would say on the strength of these
:55:01. > :55:05.results that Mrs Thatcher will be back in Number Ten for the next four
:55:06. > :55:09.or five years with a much reduced majority but a perfectly adequate
:55:10. > :55:12.working majority, more than a slender majority.
:55:13. > :55:15.Paddy Ashdown is still talking the language of somebody who thinks one
:55:16. > :55:23.day the Liberal Democrats can be a major force, possibly even oust the
:55:24. > :55:25.Labour Party as the main opposition to the Conservatives. I really think
:55:26. > :55:28.that particular balloon needs to be punctured. If our exit poll is
:55:29. > :55:36.correct, this is a sensational night that we face. Absolutely. Landslide
:55:37. > :55:40.is too weak a word. I offer you the following, it is an asteroid hitting
:55:41. > :55:44.the planet destroying practically all life on Earth.
:55:45. > :55:47.Brilliant! The master of understatement!
:55:48. > :55:49.And we're joined now by Professor John Curtice,
:55:50. > :56:00.You are smiling, give us your memories of him. The extraordinary
:56:01. > :56:03.thing about Anthony King, especially on television, was that you could
:56:04. > :56:07.give him a relatively dry statistical essay, for example,
:56:08. > :56:11.maybe the Labour Party doing relatively well in places with lots
:56:12. > :56:18.of students, and at 2am or 3am Tony King would be able turn that into an
:56:19. > :56:22.interesting story, and to do so with butter fluency and with remarkable
:56:23. > :56:27.elegance. I think probably if you were to go through the whole of the
:56:28. > :56:30.recordings that you still have of Tony King's contributions to the
:56:31. > :56:41.BBC, you will probably struggle to ever hear and umm or ahh or any sign
:56:42. > :56:46.of linguistic evidently, he was extraordinary in his turn of phrase,
:56:47. > :56:49.a broadcaster's dream, and it also meant he was somebody who conveyed
:56:50. > :56:55.to the public the story of election night, what was interesting, what
:56:56. > :56:59.was the implication for the politicians, and to that extent at
:57:00. > :57:04.least turned it from simply being a night about numbers into a night
:57:05. > :57:09.about politics. How did he come to dominate our screens in terms of the
:57:10. > :57:14.coverage in the 80s and 90s, how did he get here and into our political
:57:15. > :57:21.life, as a Canadian? He came to the UK in the 1960s as a scholar, having
:57:22. > :57:30.done a degree in Canada. He went on to do a degree at Oxford and moved
:57:31. > :57:33.not long thereafter, and with the contributions he has made he is one
:57:34. > :57:37.of those people who could turn lessons into a place where the study
:57:38. > :57:41.of politics was one of his strengths, and it became one of the
:57:42. > :57:48.leading department, partly to do with Anthony King. He worked with
:57:49. > :57:56.Doctor Gerald Butler, also a doyen of election television, on the 1966
:57:57. > :58:00.election and he became part of the world of those academics who on the
:58:01. > :58:04.one hand are very serious academics, no doubt that Anthony King was a
:58:05. > :58:08.serious academic, but at the same time are also contributing to the
:58:09. > :58:12.world of journalism. Apart from his involvement with the BBC he was also
:58:13. > :58:21.the Daily Telegraph's psephologist the many, many years and wrote up
:58:22. > :58:24.monthly polls and weekly during the general election, said he was
:58:25. > :58:29.involved not just in broadcasting but also writing and that is how he
:58:30. > :58:33.came into that world because, like David Butler, he had that
:58:34. > :58:37.combination of talents. Do you remember his coverage well?
:58:38. > :58:41.Of course I do, and I think this is an opportunity for us to pay tribute
:58:42. > :58:47.and remember the importance of people like Anthony King, but not
:58:48. > :58:53.just him, who explain clearly to the public... Make it accessible. What
:58:54. > :58:57.lies behind the story, make it interesting, give it great depth.
:58:58. > :59:01.Well, John Curtice, thank you very much, I am sure you will miss him
:59:02. > :59:06.very much, thank you for coming onto the programme to talk about Anthony
:59:07. > :59:09.King, who has died, very sadly. Very sad, Professor Anthony King.
:59:10. > :59:13.The one O'Clock News is starting on BBC One, I will be back on BBC One
:59:14. > :59:19.tonight for the first This Week Of The Year.
:59:20. > :59:21.That's with Michael Portilo, Chris Leslie, Dr Saleyha Ahsan,
:59:22. > :59:23.Miranda Green and Paul McKenna from 11:45.
:59:24. > :59:26.And I am back here again at noon tomorrow with all the big
:59:27. > :59:36.If we don't do something, it's going to burst, and it'll kill him.
:59:37. > :59:41.It'd be good to get it over and done with
:59:42. > :59:46.There is a rumour, there is a rumour that they have a bed.