:00:34. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:47.Today, by a majority of eight to three, the Supreme Court rules that
:00:48. > :00:50.the Government cannot trigger Article 50 without an Act of
:00:51. > :01:02.A government defeat in the Supreme Court as the judges
:01:03. > :01:04.confirm that only parliament can approve the triggering of Article
:01:05. > :01:07.50 which begins the process of our withdrawal from the EU -
:01:08. > :01:09.but they rule that there's no role for the devolved
:01:10. > :01:12.The Government accepts the Supreme Court's judgement.
:01:13. > :01:15.MPs and peers will get a vote - but what will the legislation look
:01:16. > :01:18.like and what obstacles might Labour and other opposition
:01:19. > :01:21.Strikes have paralysed the Southern Rail network
:01:22. > :01:23.for months, preventing hundreds of thousands of commuters
:01:24. > :01:26.Should unions and workers be allowed to inflict such disruption
:01:27. > :01:34.And we're leaving the EU - so when will the bonfire
:01:35. > :01:36.of regulations that are supposed to cost the British economy
:01:37. > :01:48.All that in the next hour, and with us for almost the whole
:01:49. > :01:51.of the programme today is the former Culture Secretary and Leave
:01:52. > :02:00.So - the Government has failed to get its way in the Supreme Court,
:02:01. > :02:03.and MPs and peers will get a vote before Article 50 is triggered,
:02:04. > :02:09.which begins the process of Britain's exit from the EU.
:02:10. > :02:11.The judges ruled by a majority of eight to three
:02:12. > :02:14.that the Government cannot begin the process for the UK's exit
:02:15. > :02:18.from the European Union without the authorisation of Parliament.
:02:19. > :02:20.Lord Neuberger, president of the Supreme Court,
:02:21. > :02:23.said a further Act of Parliament was required as the EU
:02:24. > :02:25.Referendum Act did not specify what would happen after the vote.
:02:26. > :02:31.Another issue the 11 justices had to consider
:02:32. > :02:34.was whether the devolved assemblies also need to be consulted.
:02:35. > :02:37.But they ruled that ministers did not need the consent
:02:38. > :02:39.of the legislatures in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
:02:40. > :02:49.The Government is now expected to swiftly publish legislation
:02:50. > :02:50.asking Parliament to invoke Article 50.
:02:51. > :02:53.Any bill is expected to be very short in order to leave as little
:02:54. > :03:03.Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn has said the party
:03:04. > :03:05.will not frustrate the invoking of Article 50, but is demanding
:03:06. > :03:08.that the Government is accountable to Parliament throughout the Brexit
:03:09. > :03:17.negotiations - with a "meaningful vote" at the end.
:03:18. > :03:19.Alex Salmond, the Scottish National Party's
:03:20. > :03:21.International Affairs spokesperson, has said the SNP will table 50
:03:22. > :03:28."serious and substantive" amendments, including a call
:03:29. > :03:32.for the Government to publish a White Paper before
:03:33. > :03:35.But how big a problem will this pose to
:03:36. > :03:38.The Prime Minister had pledged to trigger Article 50
:03:39. > :03:44.But MPs did overwhelmingly back a motion before
:03:45. > :03:46.Christmas supporting the Government's Brexit timetable -
:03:47. > :03:49.suggesting there may be a clear majority in the House of Commons
:03:50. > :03:53.Here's how the President of the Supreme Court, Lord Neuberger,
:03:54. > :04:05.The referendum is of great political significance.
:04:06. > :04:07.But the Act of Parliament which established it did not say
:04:08. > :04:15.So any change in the law to give effect to the referendum must be
:04:16. > :04:17.made in the only way permitted, by the UK constitution.
:04:18. > :04:25.To proceed otherwise would be a breach of settled
:04:26. > :04:27.constitutional principles, stretching back many centuries.
:04:28. > :04:29.On the devolution issues, the court unanimously rules that UK
:04:30. > :04:31.ministers are not legally compelled to consultant the devolved
:04:32. > :04:37.legislatures before triggering Article 50.
:04:38. > :04:40.The devolution statutes were enacted on the assumption that the UK
:04:41. > :04:43.would be a member of the EU, but they do not require it.
:04:44. > :04:56.Relations with the EU, are a matter for the UK Government.
:04:57. > :04:59.The Attorney General, Jeremy Wright, had this reaction to the judgement.
:05:00. > :05:02.It's a case that it was wholly appropriate for the highest court
:05:03. > :05:05.Of course the Government is disappointed with the outcome.
:05:06. > :05:08.But we have the good fortune to live in a country where everyone,
:05:09. > :05:09.every individual, every organisation, everyone government,
:05:10. > :05:14.So the Government will comply with the judgment of the court,
:05:15. > :05:28.and do all that is necessary to implement it.
:05:29. > :05:31.Gina Miller is the business woman who brought the case
:05:32. > :05:37.Here's how she reacted to the judgement.
:05:38. > :05:40.In Britain, we are lucky, we are fortunate to have the ability
:05:41. > :05:42.to voice legitimate concerns and views as part
:05:43. > :05:54.I have therefore been shocked by the levels of personal abuse that
:05:55. > :05:57.I have received from many quarters, over the last seven months,
:05:58. > :05:59.for simply bringing and asking a legitimate question.
:06:00. > :06:11.Let's talk to our political editor, Laura Kuenssberg.
:06:12. > :06:18.Laura, the Government respects the judgment, even though it lost, and
:06:19. > :06:21.lawyers have described the ruling a as victory for democracy, what does
:06:22. > :06:26.Theresa May do now? The first thing as one Government minister said was
:06:27. > :06:29.to say phew, that might sound strange given the Government have
:06:30. > :06:32.lost this case, they certainly have, and let us not forget they did not
:06:33. > :06:37.want to be in this position. No question about that. However, they
:06:38. > :06:44.had two clear fears about what the court might say this morning, one
:06:45. > :06:47.they would give the devolved administrations a formal role and
:06:48. > :06:51.say they had to have an official say over this process, the judges held
:06:52. > :06:57.back from doing that, so that is one small victory for the Government.
:06:58. > :07:00.Part two, the court did not say what kind of legislation, what kind of
:07:01. > :07:04.act the Government would have to come forward with. And that was
:07:05. > :07:09.another small victory for the Government, so phew on those two
:07:10. > :07:13.accounts, the judges did not tell them they had to consultant the
:07:14. > :07:17.other authorities and they did not spell out the kind of legislation
:07:18. > :07:21.they had to put forward. Therefore, they can push ahead with what might
:07:22. > :07:25.even only be a bill of two lines, that we might see as soon as
:07:26. > :07:29.tomorrow, and I expect that the Government might try to tie this all
:07:30. > :07:31.up within the next fortnight as far as Westminster is concerned. In
:07:32. > :07:38.order to stick to the timetable of the end of March, but does that mean
:07:39. > :07:44.then, that MPs will not be able to put down amendments? We have heard
:07:45. > :07:48.from the SNP they will try and put down 50 substantive amendments. Yes
:07:49. > :07:52.and there will be huge efforts from those on the Remain side to try to.
:07:53. > :07:56.A mend this bill, no question about that. Some of them will be debated
:07:57. > :07:59.and there are real questions too, for the Government, if somebody
:08:00. > :08:02.manages to get an amendment down, about whether or not we should stay
:08:03. > :08:07.in the single market, if they manage to get an amendment down about a
:08:08. > :08:13.vote at the end of the process that would be binding. That could start
:08:14. > :08:19.be sticky. There is a pretty widespread expectation now that the
:08:20. > :08:25.amendments might be troublesome. It could be bumpy, particularly when
:08:26. > :08:28.this hits the House of Lords, but there isn't widespread expectation
:08:29. > :08:33.this will go through and with the two big headaches not having been
:08:34. > :08:35.realised by stream court, the Government strange as it sounds they
:08:36. > :08:43.have been defeated but they are relieved. This. Amendment that
:08:44. > :08:49.Labour has talked about. A meaningful vote, that would be a
:08:50. > :08:53.veto? It would, so there is going to be a real game of cat-and-mouse in
:08:54. > :08:58.terms of which amendments a are selected by the Deputy Speaker
:08:59. > :09:01.rather the than John Bercow who will select the amendments that go
:09:02. > :09:06.forward. Even the selection will be a political act. But this is going
:09:07. > :09:11.to be difficult, for anybody, Jeremy Corbyn or any one else trying to put
:09:12. > :09:18.down amendments here, because where the government has a lot of people
:09:19. > :09:22.would thinked its cards wisely, Theresa May got out last week ahead
:09:23. > :09:26.of the Supreme Court verdict today and set out with clarity for the
:09:27. > :09:29.first time, what her plan is. She has tried to pitch that very much as
:09:30. > :09:34.this is what she believes people voted for and therefore, nobody can
:09:35. > :09:37.try to disturb or disrupt that, so people who are trying to put forward
:09:38. > :09:41.amendments will be doing so up against that context, and I think
:09:42. > :09:45.when you talk to MPs of all political parties right now, there
:09:46. > :09:48.is an acceptance that whatever they try to do, whether it is Jeremy
:09:49. > :09:54.Corbyn's amendment or anything else, the time for being able to slam the
:09:55. > :09:59.brakes on this is probably past. At least it seems that way for now, in
:10:00. > :10:02.six or nine month whence once we are in negotiations this could feel a
:10:03. > :10:12.very very different picture. Thank you.
:10:13. > :10:17.Welcome both o you. Fist your reaction, are you disappointed by
:10:18. > :10:22.the ruling? No, I think it was widely expected that this would be
:10:23. > :10:26.the ruling, it is a ruling that the constitutional lawyers and the
:10:27. > :10:30.academics will crawl over and it very important for basic issues line
:10:31. > :10:35.the use of a Royal Prerogative, but in termles of Brexit, I don't think
:10:36. > :10:38.it will make much difference now and as Laura rightly said, the fact that
:10:39. > :10:43.Parliament can reach a quick decision and move on was the
:10:44. > :10:48.important outcome. So do you also agree with Laura's assessment that a
:10:49. > :10:51.very short bill will be presented to Parliament, rather than a
:10:52. > :10:56.substantive piece of legislation? Yes, I mean, what the Supreme Court
:10:57. > :10:59.has said is that Parliament needs to authorise the Government to trigger
:11:00. > :11:02.Article 50. That is a couple of loins of legislation. I would expect
:11:03. > :11:09.that bill to be published very quickly and for it to go through
:11:10. > :11:13.Parliament quick. We expected the first part of the ruling and no
:11:14. > :11:16.doubt you are disappointed by what the Supreme Court President said
:11:17. > :11:20.that relations with the EU are a matter for the UK Government, he was
:11:21. > :11:23.very clear, so do you accept now that the devolved assemblies leek
:11:24. > :11:28.the Scottish Parliament will not have a veto? Well, one thing that
:11:29. > :11:31.the judgment did say today was that it is a political decision. It is up
:11:32. > :11:36.to Theresa May about whether or not the Scottish Parliament has a say,
:11:37. > :11:38.now the UK Parliament has never legislated on an issue that is the
:11:39. > :11:44.responsibility of the Scottish Parliament in the EU impacts on
:11:45. > :11:48.fishing, farming energy. But it's a matter of Foreign Affairs. They have
:11:49. > :11:52.never done so. Where there is a political decision,ing if it's a
:11:53. > :11:57.political decision, is that union of equals, is it a respect agenda in
:11:58. > :12:01.terms of devolution and will that settlement be respected. When will
:12:02. > :12:07.you hold a independence referendum on the fact the Government isn't
:12:08. > :12:11.going to legally be bound to ask for your say, in this decision, when
:12:12. > :12:14.will you hold the referendum? We haven't triggered Article 50 yet.
:12:15. > :12:18.Let us see what the minister has to say about what happens next. One
:12:19. > :12:25.thing that has been hugely disappointing to is is the Scottish
:12:26. > :12:29.Government put forward a compromise. We put forward compromise, that was
:12:30. > :12:33.flatly rejected, and that was really disappointing that the UK Government
:12:34. > :12:37.is not prepared to meet the Scottish Government and the other devolved
:12:38. > :12:40.administrations half way. Once Article 50 is triggered and it looks
:12:41. > :12:43.like that will happen by the end of March which is what Theresa May
:12:44. > :12:46.would like to see, we know that the UK will be coming out of the single
:12:47. > :12:49.market, is that when you will tell us when the independence referendum
:12:50. > :12:55.will be? That is obviously something the Scottish Parliament will have to
:12:56. > :13:00.debate. The the referendum comes highly likely, this is as a direct
:13:01. > :13:03.result of the UK Government refusing to compromise, refusing to give any
:13:04. > :13:08.ground. We did not vote to leave the insystem market. We were promised
:13:09. > :13:12.that Scotland would get powers over immigration by vote leave, we are
:13:13. > :13:17.not getting that, we have had a series of broken promises by the UK
:13:18. > :13:21.Government and this puts Scotland and its relationship of equals into
:13:22. > :13:26.a very difficult place. Right. Steven has a point. Even Theresa May
:13:27. > :13:31.said the devolved assemblies were going to be fully engaged. Of course
:13:32. > :13:39.they will be. They don't if they don't have that say. They will take
:13:40. > :13:41.part in the debates in Parliament. They have initiated debates in
:13:42. > :13:46.Parliament. At the end of the day, the Scottish Government is not an
:13:47. > :13:49.equal of Westminster Government, certain matters are devolved to the
:13:50. > :13:52.Scottish Government, one of those is not the matters concerning the
:13:53. > :13:55.European Union, this is a decision for the Westminster Parliament.
:13:56. > :14:00.Right. You do accept that which is what I said to you initially, that
:14:01. > :14:05.when it comes to matters of the EU, when it comes to Foreign Affairs
:14:06. > :14:09.these are not devolved issues. But things like fishing and farming are.
:14:10. > :14:13.Energy is a devolved issue. Will you have a say on that through the
:14:14. > :14:15.committee? These are Members of Parliament. John's forgetting that
:14:16. > :14:20.members of Parliament are not members of the Government, we are
:14:21. > :14:23.members of the Westminster Parliament us juz as Conservative
:14:24. > :14:27.MSPs are members of the Scottish Parliament. Democracy does not begin
:14:28. > :14:31.and end at Westminster, and this is something the Conservative Party has
:14:32. > :14:34.not really kept pace with, and thus is disastrous electoral showing in
:14:35. > :14:39.Scotland. And you could pay the price for that, as the ballot box,
:14:40. > :14:43.in future elections but in terms of being fully engaged, how do you see
:14:44. > :14:46.the devolved assemblies being fully engaged, other than sitting on a
:14:47. > :14:55.committee or two in Brexit? I'm sure the government will listen
:14:56. > :15:00.to the views of the devolved governments. If they make sensible
:15:01. > :15:06.suggestions, I'm sure they will be taken into account. When you say it
:15:07. > :15:09.was promised, what was the wording given to you by Michael Gove in
:15:10. > :15:15.terms of a promise that immigration would be devolved? He thought it
:15:16. > :15:19.would be sensible for Scotland to have control over immigration
:15:20. > :15:24.because we have particular needs. Freedom of movement is something
:15:25. > :15:28.jobs rely on. I will read you what he said. He said, if in the course
:15:29. > :15:32.of the negotiations the Scottish Parliament wants to play a role in
:15:33. > :15:37.deciding how a Visa system could work, then that is something we
:15:38. > :15:45.would look into. That's not quite the same as saying they would
:15:46. > :15:51.devolve immigration. I raised this in the chamber. When I asked Michael
:15:52. > :16:00.Gove if it would mean devolving immigration, he nodded. It was an
:16:01. > :16:04.act of negligence that the UK government has carried on. If they
:16:05. > :16:11.can keep this simple promise, what hope Howie for the rest of these
:16:12. > :16:19.areas? -- can't. You behaved in a negligent manner. You make promises
:16:20. > :16:22.you couldn't keep. The vote Leave campaign was not the government.
:16:23. > :16:28.What Michael Gove said sounds very sensible to me. But sadly, in my
:16:29. > :16:34.view, Michael Gove is not a member of the government now, nor am I. It
:16:35. > :16:40.means it is a matter for the government to decide. Steven Cousins
:16:41. > :16:44.HAAS to go. Thank you. Jenny Chapman, Jeremy Corbyn has said this
:16:45. > :16:49.morning Labour will not frustrate the process of invoking article 50.
:16:50. > :16:54.But he has said he will seek to amend the Bill and ensure there is a
:16:55. > :16:59.meaningful vote. What is that? The reason it is meaningful is that it
:17:00. > :17:04.needs to come before the deal is signed. There will be two votes. I
:17:05. > :17:10.don't think people got their heads around it. The votes we are talking
:17:11. > :17:13.about today is around the Article 50 agreement, the withdrawal agreement
:17:14. > :17:18.from the EU, which will deal with things like pensions and
:17:19. > :17:22.contributions, all of those sorts of issues. Also in that agreement is
:17:23. > :17:26.likely to be a transitional deal, which we will be on. That will
:17:27. > :17:31.inform our relationship as we leave so there is no cliff edge. What is
:17:32. > :17:36.not in that withdrawal agreement is the free-trade deal, or whatever our
:17:37. > :17:41.future agreement is going to be with the EU. That is another bowled
:17:42. > :17:48.Parliament needs to have. Theresa May needs to give parliament a votes
:17:49. > :17:54.on any trade deal she goes into in the future. Would you go along with
:17:55. > :18:03.that? Parliament obviously needs a votes. That is very clear. The
:18:04. > :18:06.problem is that once Article 50 is triggered, then we are set on a path
:18:07. > :18:15.which will lead to Britain leaving. That is irrevocable. That is being
:18:16. > :18:22.argued about at the moment. That is what Article 50 says. If we chuck
:18:23. > :18:27.out the deal and say Parliament decides it doesn't like the deal,
:18:28. > :18:33.then we leave anyway. We just don't have a deal. This is where the
:18:34. > :18:37.argument lies. If there is a vote and Parliament does vote it down. We
:18:38. > :18:41.don't like the deal, we don't think we are getting enough in terms of
:18:42. > :18:47.what we wanted with regard to free-trade, do we stay in the EU at
:18:48. > :18:54.that point, or do we go on to World Trade Organisation rules? One is the
:18:55. > :19:00.transitional deal we could have. That takes away this, you either
:19:01. > :19:03.take this deal or not. That was a stupid thing for the Prime Minister
:19:04. > :19:06.to have said because it will not be the case. You can actually extend
:19:07. > :19:14.the negotiating period should you need to. That has to get the
:19:15. > :19:18.agreement of the other 27 states. The debate is taking place as if
:19:19. > :19:26.that is not possible. It is possible. You agree it is a risk? Of
:19:27. > :19:31.course. He could not get agreement, we would be on a cliff edge. Indeed.
:19:32. > :19:38.I don't think it would be in the interest of the other 27 states. Why
:19:39. > :19:42.shouldn't there be a deal to say that actually, just go back and
:19:43. > :19:48.negotiate further in the interests of the UK? Parliament has the
:19:49. > :19:56.ability to vote at any stage of the process. But at the end of the day
:19:57. > :19:59.this is in negotiation the government has to conduct. I think
:20:00. > :20:04.the Prime Minister is right to warn against any attempt to bind the
:20:05. > :20:09.hands of the negotiating team. We don't want to set conditions on the
:20:10. > :20:11.government. Europe will know that and will harden their stance
:20:12. > :20:17.immediately if they know that the government has to achieve something.
:20:18. > :20:22.Right. These are the arguments that have been set out before. We show
:20:23. > :20:27.our hand completely, we won't get the deal that we want. You accept
:20:28. > :20:31.that? Absolutely. You will not see an amendment from the Labour Party
:20:32. > :20:38.which says we want to see your negotiating tactics. We will be
:20:39. > :20:42.making probably five very reasonable amendments that I hope the House
:20:43. > :20:48.will adopt. We want to see a plan. We have had a speech. Do you want to
:20:49. > :20:52.see a White Paper? That would be great. If it is less than a White
:20:53. > :20:59.Paper but still fulfils the function of a plan, we would settle for that.
:21:00. > :21:03.We want certainty around EU citizens, certain principles around
:21:04. > :21:07.maximising free-trade, the Customs Union, that the Prime Minister
:21:08. > :21:11.outlined herself in her speech. We want parliamentary oversight and a
:21:12. > :21:15.vote before the end. Most of those things the Prime Minister has
:21:16. > :21:20.already said she accepts. I do not see why the government would want to
:21:21. > :21:25.obstruct our amendments. You have been clearer about what Labour pots
:21:26. > :21:31.position would be in terms of Article 50. Are you convinced by
:21:32. > :21:36.your labour colleagues? You will not get every Labour MP to vote in
:21:37. > :21:42.favour of triggering Article 50. Will there be a width? That is way
:21:43. > :21:46.above my pay grade! There is the small matter of the party
:21:47. > :21:50.leadership, the shadow Cabinet, the Chief whip. If you are quite firm as
:21:51. > :21:55.part of the Brexit team on issues like freedom of movement, invoking
:21:56. > :22:01.Article 50, should there be party management to whip Labour MPs? It is
:22:02. > :22:07.not up to me. Whatever we do, whether it is a three line whip, it
:22:08. > :22:12.is academic and away. There are MPs I know who, whatever working
:22:13. > :22:18.arrangements you put in place, are not going to vote Article 50. One of
:22:19. > :22:23.them was on the programme yesterday. You are split on this issue as we
:22:24. > :22:30.used to say the Conservatives are. We are not, really. It's different.
:22:31. > :22:35.It is nothing like what you have seen over decades in the Tory party.
:22:36. > :22:38.The referendum has put Labour MPs in positions where they are on
:22:39. > :22:41.different sides of this argument. But we respect one another pots 's
:22:42. > :22:54.edition on this. We are very understanding. --'s position. We saw
:22:55. > :23:00.IDS and Ken Clarke going at it hammer and tongs this morning on TV.
:23:01. > :23:09.I was a Maastricht rebel, so I remember! When it comes to the vote,
:23:10. > :23:12.I think what you will see is with probably the single exception of Ken
:23:13. > :23:17.Clarke, all Conservative MPs will vote to trigger Article 50. The
:23:18. > :23:18.Labour Party will probably go in three different directions. Thank
:23:19. > :23:20.you. Donald Trump's had a busy few days,
:23:21. > :23:25.and so far it's going well for him. His proposed Secretary of State has
:23:26. > :23:28.been given the green light by the Senate, and he's formally
:23:29. > :23:30.withdrawn from the Trans-Pacific But not everything is
:23:31. > :23:33.going according to plan. So our question for today
:23:34. > :23:37.is, what's gone wrong? At the end of the show John
:23:38. > :24:08.will give us the correct answer. Over the last year or so, strikes
:24:09. > :24:11.on Southern Trains have wreaked havoc on rail travellers
:24:12. > :24:13.in the south east of England. The row over who should operate
:24:14. > :24:16.the doors on new trains has re-opened the debate
:24:17. > :24:18.about whether our strike laws need toughening, and today,
:24:19. > :24:20.Conservative backbencher Chris Philp is introducing a bill to the Commons
:24:21. > :24:23.to address the issue - and he joins us from
:24:24. > :24:32.Parliament's Central Lobby. What does your bill asked for? It
:24:33. > :24:36.asks for proportionality. It says the rights of the public to get to
:24:37. > :24:39.work or get home to see their loved ones, should be balanced with the
:24:40. > :24:45.right to strike. People do need to be able to get to work. A High Court
:24:46. > :24:51.judge should adjudicate were strike action is taking place or is
:24:52. > :24:54.proposed, to say that action must be reasonable and proportionate when
:24:55. > :25:01.weighed against the impact on the public, against the issue of the
:25:02. > :25:05.drivers. The action on Southern Railway has not been reasonable and
:25:06. > :25:09.proportionate. There have been 40 days when 300,000 people have been
:25:10. > :25:14.unable to get to work. The dispute centres on who opens or closes the
:25:15. > :25:18.doors. Driver operated stores run perfectly safely on 1.5 million
:25:19. > :25:25.trains in the last five years. The regulator says they are saved. They
:25:26. > :25:33.run safely on London Underground. It is -- the strike is running people's
:25:34. > :25:35.lives. The strike stayed past the required threshold. What
:25:36. > :25:44.justification have you got to make it even harder? Taking the RMT
:25:45. > :25:48.dispute with Southern as an example, something like 75% did vote for
:25:49. > :25:52.strike action. You have 300,000 people simply complaining about who
:25:53. > :25:58.opens or closes the door, preventing 300,000 people from getting to work
:25:59. > :26:02.on 40 days. It is not reasonable or proportionate. I'm not saying strike
:26:03. > :26:05.should be banned. I'm simply saying we should balance the right to
:26:06. > :26:08.strike with the right of people to get to work and recognise those
:26:09. > :26:13.rights as well as recognising the work of -- the rights of strike. Is
:26:14. > :26:18.the government supporting new? I'm not here to support -- to speak for
:26:19. > :26:21.the government. Begun and will speak for themselves. It is not currently
:26:22. > :26:26.government policy. They are thinking about it. The more the unions behave
:26:27. > :26:30.unreasonably, the more likely this kind of legislation becomes. We
:26:31. > :26:39.can't sit back and watch constituents' lives being ruined by
:26:40. > :26:43.this kind of action. If they behave unreasonably, it makes a case for
:26:44. > :26:48.legislation stronger. Watson of turnout are you expecting from your
:26:49. > :26:54.colleagues? After failing to predict the Brexit referendum and Donald
:26:55. > :26:59.Trump's election, not in the prediction business. It does have a
:27:00. > :27:02.lot of backbench support. Over 50 Conservative MPs signed a letter a
:27:03. > :27:05.couple of weeks ago to the daily Telegraph, and there is widespread
:27:06. > :27:11.support in parliament and more importantly in the country.
:27:12. > :27:15.Yesterday a Paul was published saying 64% of Londoners supported
:27:16. > :27:18.this. We're joined now by Mick Lynch
:27:19. > :27:28.of the RMT union. Let's go back to that opinion poll
:27:29. > :27:33.in yesterday's Evening Standard. 65% of Londoners want curbs on strikes
:27:34. > :27:40.by train or tube drivers. It would be good if you lose the vote? 61% of
:27:41. > :27:46.the country on a nationwide poll support the right of trained staff,
:27:47. > :27:51.emergencies services start, doctors, Fire Brigade 's etc, to maintain
:27:52. > :27:55.their right to strike. He is saying, if you strike on the way we like and
:27:56. > :28:00.it's very ineffective, I will tolerate your right to strike. This
:28:01. > :28:02.is a suppression of human rights. Long-standing human rights that
:28:03. > :28:07.trade unions and working class people have had. People have rights.
:28:08. > :28:11.It is balanced by, if you like, in an unfair whereby the current raft
:28:12. > :28:15.of legislation which has just gone through Parliament. It is not even
:28:16. > :28:19.fully enforced yet. We have a raft of balancing laws that will restrict
:28:20. > :28:24.the right to strike coming in on March the 1st. They have been on a
:28:25. > :28:30.process of voting in parliament. This is more about Chris Phipps's
:28:31. > :28:35.ambition. He is getting a profile out of it. He has not done enough to
:28:36. > :28:38.bring about a resolution and put pressure on Chris Kelly -- Chris
:28:39. > :28:42.Grayling and Southern to bring a resolution. He is politicising the
:28:43. > :28:46.dispute through his own ends and for the Tory party's agenda, which is
:28:47. > :28:50.whenever the trade unions dared to put their heads above the parapet,
:28:51. > :28:57.they want to make what we do illegal and crush resistance. He is not
:28:58. > :29:04.wanting to make it illegal? All but. Yes, I support the bill. I will vote
:29:05. > :29:06.for it if there is a vote today. How would you deem a strike to be
:29:07. > :29:11.unreasonable on an essential service? Chris has set out that the
:29:12. > :29:19.critically essential services should have additional requirements
:29:20. > :29:22.before... What would there be? Primarily transport, rail, perhaps
:29:23. > :29:27.the tubes. Things huge number of people depend on. Chris is speaking
:29:28. > :29:30.up for his own constituents and travellers on Southern rail who have
:29:31. > :29:34.been put through misery Day misery Day after day. Do you blame the
:29:35. > :29:42.company? The company is certainly open to criticism. Shouldn't some of
:29:43. > :29:45.the pressure be going on to the company? I know Chris Grayling is
:29:46. > :29:53.talking to the company and the union. He has done nothing. He has
:29:54. > :29:59.said his door is open. This is about strike action and whether there are
:30:00. > :30:00.some services were there needs to be protection for the consumers. Chris
:30:01. > :30:13.has come up with some suggestions. What you mean, paying conditions
:30:14. > :30:18.that people have built up, you find that to be too much and you are
:30:19. > :30:22.going to challenge it and get one of your friends to the judiciary to
:30:23. > :30:26.make that strike illegal. At the moment they haven't done well with
:30:27. > :30:30.their friends in the judiciary. There are people that are willing to
:30:31. > :30:36.put the trade unions down. No-one wants to give us the freedom enjoyed
:30:37. > :30:41.in other countries, we have the most repressive laws in the western
:30:42. > :30:46.world. They are mirrors what is in place in other countries. Other
:30:47. > :30:57.restrictive practises. Other countries... People are more tree to
:30:58. > :31:01.take action. Australia, developed western economy, they recognise on
:31:02. > :31:05.critical services you need protection. The DFT has put people
:31:06. > :31:10.through misery, there is no need for this dispute in the first place, the
:31:11. > :31:14.DFT has sponsored this dispute from the beginning to get rid of guards
:31:15. > :31:17.on the trains it a political dispute in the sense your party and
:31:18. > :31:21.Government is running I Do you accept both sides have politicised
:31:22. > :31:25.it. You have on the one side, I have before quoted to you the RMT
:31:26. > :31:28.President, you said it was quoted out of context but it was broadly
:31:29. > :31:34.about taking down a Tory Government when it came to resisting strike
:31:35. > :31:36.action and you blamed the Tory Government, for ideologically
:31:37. > :31:40.opposing these strikes and not doing enough about the company, so
:31:41. > :31:44.politics has dogged this strike on both sides. All strikes have a
:31:45. > :31:51.political element. There is going to be something in there that is a
:31:52. > :31:55.broader agenda. The Tory party and the DFT want to dehumanise the
:31:56. > :31:58.railway. They will change the franchises, so that the companies
:31:59. > :32:03.can make no profit and their ambition is to get rid of guards on
:32:04. > :32:10.all trains in the UK. Is that that your ambition? We made clear this is
:32:11. > :32:14.a dispute between the operating company, it is the case that across
:32:15. > :32:17.the rest of the country there are large numbers of trains that are
:32:18. > :32:21.driver only operated without any difficulty whatsoever. I suppose
:32:22. > :32:24.what I could say in terms of the legislation itself, this trade union
:32:25. > :32:30.legislation was brought in relatively recently, if you are
:32:31. > :32:35.supportive of toughening up or going further with that legislation you
:32:36. > :32:38.got it wrong the first time round. Chris is introducing a private
:32:39. > :32:42.member bill. He is putting suggestions on the table, I think
:32:43. > :32:44.they are interesting one, I think they are worth looking at,
:32:45. > :32:49.particularly given the experience we have had in the last few weeks. Will
:32:50. > :32:53.the Government move on it? That is a matter for the Government. Should
:32:54. > :32:56.they? I would hope they would. You are revisiting a piece of
:32:57. > :33:01.legislation you have only just brought in. I think what is driving
:33:02. > :33:07.Chris fillip and a lot of other people is the fact 300,000 people
:33:08. > :33:12.are being put through hell, over a arcane dispute between two trade
:33:13. > :33:21.unions about who opens the doors. It is not arcane. We are passionate
:33:22. > :33:27.about defending the standards of safety on the railway. You choose
:33:28. > :33:29.not to believe that, but the guard has other roles besides opening and
:33:30. > :33:33.closing door, that is what the dispute is about. Whenever we put
:33:34. > :33:39.forward reasonable industrial accuse sun that is effective you seek to
:33:40. > :33:43.make it illegal. The Tory party has never reported legislation that will
:33:44. > :33:46.assist trade unions, this is another chapter in oppressing our rights and
:33:47. > :33:50.another in suppressing people's freedom and the ability to resist
:33:51. > :33:54.what this Government is doing and what the employers are doing. The
:33:55. > :33:58.Government says it is about balancing rights between the people
:33:59. > :34:04.who use the services and people like you who work in the service, but
:34:05. > :34:09.could this strike action actually backfire for the unions, if it
:34:10. > :34:15.results in the Government backing even tougher leg lacing you sigh as
:34:16. > :34:19.anti-union. So you come out with your hands up. We are not prepared
:34:20. > :34:23.to do that. What can you do? We have the right to industrial action and
:34:24. > :34:27.we will continue to do so. We try do that within the law as we do with
:34:28. > :34:32.everything else. Regulation about tax and returns and the rest of it.
:34:33. > :34:36.We will continue to act within the law until the Tories make that
:34:37. > :34:39.impossible. Wouldn't it be better to try and have a reconciliation,
:34:40. > :34:42.rather than talking about tougher legislation that is is only going to
:34:43. > :34:46.escalate this row because we have heard, they will continue the union,
:34:47. > :34:49.which is within their right further strike action. One of the
:34:50. > :34:52.suggestions in the bill is on essential services, where there is
:34:53. > :34:54.an industrial dispute there should be a requirement to go to
:34:55. > :34:59.arbitration, that is one possibility. Another is it should go
:35:00. > :35:03.before perhaps a judge, not a friendly one, as we had seen today
:35:04. > :35:06.but an independent judge who can rule as to whether or not the action
:35:07. > :35:10.taken is proportionate. These are suggestions at this stage. This is
:35:11. > :35:13.not going to become law, they are sensible and worth looking at. Thank
:35:14. > :35:16.Now, Donald Trump promised yesterday to "cut business regulation
:35:17. > :35:19.Could the UK government do the same here?
:35:20. > :35:21.That's the hope of many of those who campaigned
:35:22. > :35:25.They say red tape associated with our membership of the EU
:35:26. > :35:27.is costing the UK economy billions of pounds every year.
:35:28. > :35:43.One of the burning issues of the referendum campaign.
:35:44. > :35:47.It is absurd that we are told you cannot sell bananas in bunches
:35:48. > :35:56.If we take back control, we will lift the burden.
:35:57. > :36:01.?600 million a week lifted off the backs of British industry.
:36:02. > :36:05.Bananas claimed about wonky fruit aside, saving all that money
:36:06. > :36:09.by getting rid of red tape is surely a persuasive argument.
:36:10. > :36:13.In 2014, the think-tank Open Europe costed the impact of the 100 most
:36:14. > :36:17.expensive EU regulations on the British economy
:36:18. > :36:21.Take environmental legislation, such as the UK Renewable Energy Strategy.
:36:22. > :36:24.Costing a yearly ?4.7 billion, it's one of the hottest
:36:25. > :36:35.Or employment legislation, such as the Working Time Directive.
:36:36. > :36:37.That was said to cost business ?4.2 billion a year.
:36:38. > :36:39.There is an annual price tag of ?2.1 billion
:36:40. > :36:44.for the Temporary Agency Workers Directive.
:36:45. > :36:46.Lots and lots of regulations that are very much to do
:36:47. > :36:49.with bureaucracy, rather than real benefit, and that bureaucracy
:36:50. > :36:52.cost businesses money, especially when it's applied
:36:53. > :36:59.The British Chambers, for example, stopped measuring it in 2010
:37:00. > :37:02.because nobody was listening, and by that point they'd already
:37:03. > :37:07.estimated that European regulations cost ?80 billion a year.
:37:08. > :37:11.Big numbers, but the Government holds its hands up and says it likes
:37:12. > :37:13.many of these regulations, and any way it realises it
:37:14. > :37:15.could get its fingers burned by removing them.
:37:16. > :37:18.Under my leadership, not only will the Government protect
:37:19. > :37:20.the rights of workers set out in European legislation,
:37:21. > :37:25.Because under this Conservative Government,
:37:26. > :37:28.we will make sure legal protection for workers keeps pace
:37:29. > :37:36.The think-tank Open Europe reckon there is an annual ?13 billion
:37:37. > :37:38.saving to be had from deregulation, but that would come
:37:39. > :37:41.from amending EU rules, rather than dumping them completely.
:37:42. > :37:49.The Government's plan is to take EU regulation
:37:50. > :37:52.on to the UK statute book, and the first instance is to keep
:37:53. > :37:54.that regulation the same, in terms of negotiation with the EU,
:37:55. > :37:58.but clearly the Government is giving itself the tools to look
:37:59. > :38:00.at regulations in the future, because it will be something that
:38:01. > :38:03.I certainly think that as the relationship
:38:04. > :38:08.develops, as we are outside of the European Union,
:38:09. > :38:10.it is inevitable in some areas regulation is going to diverge
:38:11. > :38:14.different attitudes to certain issues, and as the EU takes
:38:15. > :38:16.different attitudes we might no longer sign up to.
:38:17. > :38:18.Those hoping for a bonfire of EU regulations the day
:38:19. > :38:20.after Brexit might want to dampen their expectations.
:38:21. > :38:22.Changing the rules or getting rid of them completely,
:38:23. > :38:33.even if you wanted to, could well be a slow burn.
:38:34. > :38:40.You enjoyed that John. I suppose you would think one of the great add van
:38:41. > :38:42.Tam of Brexit is we will be able to establish vast swathes of
:38:43. > :38:46.regulation, which would you like to get rid of first? I think there is a
:38:47. > :38:52.lot to choose from, what we have said to British business is you tell
:38:53. > :38:55.us which are the most burden some, the most unnecessary, pieces of
:38:56. > :38:59.regulation and we will look at whether they can be repealed. This
:39:00. > :39:03.is going to take time. It is not part of the Brexit negotiations, but
:39:04. > :39:06.because what we will do is introduce a bill that transfers all European
:39:07. > :39:09.regulations into British law and then we will have the opportunity to
:39:10. > :39:12.go through and decide which are appropriate and which are not.
:39:13. > :39:19.Right. But what are the regulations that you would like to get rid of?
:39:20. > :39:23.Boris Johnson said we can get rid of the pointless rules, what did he
:39:24. > :39:27.have in mind? I think you have had a list put up on the screen of some.
:39:28. > :39:31.Things like the Working Time Directive, not to remove entirely.
:39:32. > :39:35.Part of the problem with European regulation is they agreed in
:39:36. > :39:40.Brussels, as a single regulation across the whole of #y50u6r7. What
:39:41. > :39:44.we will be able do is design it so it meets our needs, it might be that
:39:45. > :39:47.certain sectors should be exempted for instance from Working Time
:39:48. > :39:52.Directive, but we have the time to look at these things and craft them,
:39:53. > :39:57.so they don't impose unnecessary costs and burdens. You would like to
:39:58. > :40:02.restrict something like the Working Time Directive which is a cost of
:40:03. > :40:06.4.2 billion. That season a area where we can say to the various
:40:07. > :40:09.sectors for maybe the farming sector or the NHS or others who have
:40:10. > :40:12.complained about the impact of Working Time Directive, you tell us
:40:13. > :40:15.what is necessary, and which is unnecessary, and just adding to our
:40:16. > :40:18.costs and then the British Government can draw up the
:40:19. > :40:22.regulation, specifically designed for the needs of that particular
:40:23. > :40:26.sector. That puts you at odds with the Prime Minister, because Theresa
:40:27. > :40:29.May wants to enhance exactly that type of employment protection and
:40:30. > :40:33.legislation, a fairer Britain she says is a country that protects an
:40:34. > :40:38.enhances the rights people have at work, so she doesn't want to do
:40:39. > :40:42.that. We don't want to sweep away all Rourkers -- workers' rights. You
:40:43. > :40:48.have said business tells you we want to get some of the regulations and
:40:49. > :40:51.rules that will know doubt, some will include employment protection,
:40:52. > :40:57.the ones Theresa May says she wants to keep. They would say we would
:40:58. > :41:02.like you to get rid of it. I can remember from my time in Government
:41:03. > :41:07.there were measures which the Government oppose which we argued
:41:08. > :41:10.against and loss in a vote, so we were still required to implement.
:41:11. > :41:14.There are plenty of examples like that where we have side this is not
:41:15. > :41:18.necessary. It is going to add to costs now we will have the ability
:41:19. > :41:23.to get rid. Are you disappointed by what Theresa May said? No,some She
:41:24. > :41:26.goes on to say that is why in order to have this fair ir-Britain, that
:41:27. > :41:29.is why as we translate, which with you said the body of European law
:41:30. > :41:33.into domestic regulation for we willen shoe shoe that workers'
:41:34. > :41:38.rights are fully protected and maintained. She doesn't want to get
:41:39. > :41:42.rid of any of it That is no what she is saying. He is saying workers'
:41:43. > :41:46.rights are fully protected and maintained. Under my leadership, not
:41:47. > :41:50.only will the Government protect the rights of workers, set out in
:41:51. > :41:53.European legislation, like the temporary agency workers directive
:41:54. > :41:58.and the working time directive, we will build on them. She wants to
:41:59. > :42:01.increase it. One of the things about being outside the European Union is
:42:02. > :42:06.we can reduce regulation in areas where we think it is unnecessary, if
:42:07. > :42:10.there are air areas we would like to do more we have the chance to do so.
:42:11. > :42:15.That will increase the talk. About this tall from you and Boris Johnson
:42:16. > :42:19.and you and your leave colleagues we are going to wipe away billions, not
:42:20. > :42:24.according to Theresa May, or what you have said is you might build.
:42:25. > :42:28.There are one or two areas where we wanted to go further and the
:42:29. > :42:31.European Union held us back. Animal welfare and legislation, we were
:42:32. > :42:36.stopped from bringing in certain protections, but in the vast
:42:37. > :42:40.majority of cases, Europe has added more and more regulation. Where? I
:42:41. > :42:43.am trying to get to the bottom of it. If you have accepted that
:42:44. > :42:47.Theresa May wants to not only keep workers' rights legislation, but
:42:48. > :42:52.build on them, environmental legislation, such as the UK
:42:53. > :42:55.renewable energy strategy comes in at 4.7 billion. Environmental
:42:56. > :43:00.protections would you get rid of those to save money? We will draw
:43:01. > :43:02.them up so they are appropriate for this country, there will be some
:43:03. > :43:06.elements of European regulation which are sensible and which we will
:43:07. > :43:11.say we have no intention of repealing those, but where there are
:43:12. > :43:14.examples where we believe that they are unnecessary and costly, we can
:43:15. > :43:19.get rid of them. Have you got any examples? Are we going to get to the
:43:20. > :43:24.bottom of the list... As we talked about one or two, like Working Time
:43:25. > :43:27.Directive, which we wouldn't necessarily get rid of. Theresa May
:43:28. > :43:31.doesn't want to get rid of it. She hasn't said that, she said she will
:43:32. > :43:36.protect workers right. Where there is a strong case, we will keep those
:43:37. > :43:39.thing, when I was Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport we had
:43:40. > :43:43.European regulation coming through, which we strongly opposed, and yes
:43:44. > :43:48.we were forced to implement. We can look at it again and some we may
:43:49. > :43:53.keep and other parts we have the freedom to repeal. Boris Johnson
:43:54. > :43:58.said we can, when we take back control we can save ?600 million a
:43:59. > :44:04.week, will be lifted off the backs of British industry, do you agree
:44:05. > :44:08.with that? John Longworth you had earlier, he ran the British Chambers
:44:09. > :44:12.of Commerce who used to keep the running total of the cost of
:44:13. > :44:15.regulation, I don't think you can put a specific figure on it. Boris
:44:16. > :44:19.Johnson did. There is a vast amount of regulation which adds to cost,
:44:20. > :44:23.makes us less competitive and destroys jobs. You haven't been able
:44:24. > :44:26.to give me a specific example We have been talking about specific
:44:27. > :44:33.example, I have given you several. I think that it is for business to
:44:34. > :44:39.tell us, those areas of regulation they found to be most costly and for
:44:40. > :44:42.which there is little justification. As we come to debate the great
:44:43. > :44:45.repeal bill, that will be consequence.
:44:46. > :44:48.Now, Theresa May refused to say on Sunday whether she was aware that
:44:49. > :44:51.a Trident missile had veered off course towards Florida in a test
:44:52. > :44:56.Yesterday it was revealed that the Prime Minister was made
:44:57. > :44:59.aware of the incident when she took office in July, and the Defence
:45:00. > :45:02.Secretary, Michael Fallon, was summoned to the House of Commons
:45:03. > :45:13.As the matters we are about to discuss are of the utmost
:45:14. > :45:17.confidentiality and may give succour to Her Majesty's enemies,
:45:18. > :45:23.I beg to move - I beg to move that the House sit in private.
:45:24. > :45:27.Under Standing Order Number 163, I am obliged to this this question
:45:28. > :45:35.The question is that the House do sit in private.
:45:36. > :45:37.As many as are of that opinion say aye.
:45:38. > :45:52.We do not comment on the detail of submarine operations.
:45:53. > :45:56.I can, however, assure the House that during any test firing
:45:57. > :46:01.the safety of the crew and public is paramount, and is
:46:02. > :46:07.I can assure the House that the capability and effectiveness
:46:08. > :46:13.of the United Kingdom's independent nuclear deterrent is not in doubt.
:46:14. > :46:16.The Government has absolute confidence in our deterrent,
:46:17. > :46:20.and in the Royal Navy crews who protect us and our Nato allies,
:46:21. > :46:30.Can I ask the Secretary of State a simple question.
:46:31. > :46:33.Why was this information deliberately kept from Parliament
:46:34. > :46:36.Who made the decision to keep this incident quiet?
:46:37. > :46:40.Was it his department or was it Number Ten?
:46:41. > :46:43.And while respecting the limits of what he can disclose,
:46:44. > :46:45.can he at least set out what investigation his
:46:46. > :46:48.department has carried out into what happened in June?
:46:49. > :46:52.And what assurances he can give that there will be no future cover
:46:53. > :46:59.Mr Speaker, at the heart of this issue is a worrying lack
:47:00. > :47:01.of transparency and a Prime Minister who's chosen to cover
:47:02. > :47:04.up a serious incident, rather than coming clean
:47:05. > :47:13.This House, and more importantly the British public, deserves better.
:47:14. > :47:17.While accepting that the nuclear deterrent needs to be
:47:18. > :47:21.shrouded in secrecy, it also needs to deter,
:47:22. > :47:24.and once stories get out there, that a missile may have failed,
:47:25. > :47:26.isn't it better to be quite frank about it,
:47:27. > :47:34.especially if it has no strategic significance, as in this case
:47:35. > :47:53.John Whittingdale, has this been handled well by Number 10? I think
:47:54. > :47:58.it is faintly absurd to have a 40 minute session of MPs asking
:47:59. > :48:04.questions and having the Secretary of State refused to answer them,
:48:05. > :48:07.basically. But he is quite right. Matters of nuclear deterrent are
:48:08. > :48:11.concerned with security and we never comment on these. There have been
:48:12. > :48:18.successful tests publicised in the past. Press releases have been sent
:48:19. > :48:21.out. And the Prime Minister was briefed a rout -- about this test
:48:22. > :48:29.misfiring. Should they have come clean when they were asked? What the
:48:30. > :48:35.Secretary of State has told us, the submarine is now back doing its job
:48:36. > :48:40.and we have come out the other side. Eukaryote test to see if there are
:48:41. > :48:47.problems and then correct them. -- eukaryote test. I don't think you
:48:48. > :48:52.can put out a press release to tell everybody that Britain's nuclear
:48:53. > :49:00.deterrent has a problem. Because it undermines deterrence Ubud Julian
:49:01. > :49:06.Lewis says there have been umpteen other tests that have been
:49:07. > :49:11.successful. Should Number 10 have come clean? I don't think it would
:49:12. > :49:17.have affected the vote on Trident. You don't talk publicly on matters
:49:18. > :49:21.affecting public security. When it was all over the press, should a
:49:22. > :49:26.Theresa May have answered differently on the Andrew Marshall?
:49:27. > :49:31.If the Prime Minister had just said, I regret the fact that this was on
:49:32. > :49:35.the front page of the Sunday Times, but I'm still not prepared to talk
:49:36. > :49:38.about matters of national security, which is essentially what the
:49:39. > :49:43.Secretary of State then said later, that would have been fine. Is that
:49:44. > :49:48.what you have -- would have advised her to do? A long time ago I used to
:49:49. > :49:53.advise the Prime Minister before interviews and that is probably what
:49:54. > :49:56.I would have said. To some extent the Prime Minister could have
:49:57. > :50:01.stopped the debate on this in its tracks on Sunday by saying something
:50:02. > :50:06.more definitive, couldn't she? She clearly was on willing to answer the
:50:07. > :50:08.question. She might have been more explicit in just saying, I'm not
:50:09. > :50:11.going to answer that question. Our guest of the day,
:50:12. > :50:13.John Whittingdale, has to rush off now, but before he goes,
:50:14. > :50:16.let's find out the What hasn't gone
:50:17. > :50:45.well for Donald Trump John Whittingdale, what do you think
:50:46. > :50:49.is the right answer? The one I suspect he would probably be most
:50:50. > :50:55.sore about is Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's probably not the right answer!
:50:56. > :51:00.It is not. His new Washington, DC Hotel is losing money. I don't
:51:01. > :51:04.suppose people will shed any tears because he has got a few Bob. Thank
:51:05. > :51:06.you for being on the programme. Thank you.
:51:07. > :51:08.Back to our main story - the Supreme Court's judgement
:51:09. > :51:10.on whether Article 50 can be triggered.
:51:11. > :51:12.In the last hour, the Brexit Secretary, David Davis,
:51:13. > :51:18.I can announce today that we will shortly introduce legislation
:51:19. > :51:22.allowing the government to move ahead with invoking article 50,
:51:23. > :51:29.which starts the formal process of withdrawing from the European Union.
:51:30. > :51:33.We received the lengthy judgment a few hours ago and government lawyers
:51:34. > :51:38.are assessing it carefully. But this would be a straightforward bill.
:51:39. > :51:42.It's not about whether or not the UK should leave the European Union.
:51:43. > :51:47.That decision has already been made by the people of the United Kingdom.
:51:48. > :51:51.We will work with colleagues in both houses to ensure this bill is passed
:51:52. > :51:56.in good time and we will invoke article 50 by the end of March this
:51:57. > :52:00.year, as the Prime Minister has set out. We will introduce legislation
:52:01. > :52:06.to give the government legal power to trickle Article 50 and begin the
:52:07. > :52:11.formal process of withdrawal. It will be separate to the great repeal
:52:12. > :52:14.Bill to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, introduced
:52:15. > :52:19.later this year. This will be the most straightforward bill possible
:52:20. > :52:21.to effect the decision of the people and respect the decision of the
:52:22. > :52:25.Supreme Court. That was David Davis. We're joined now by the leader
:52:26. > :52:27.of the Liberal Democrats in the Lords, Lord Newby,
:52:28. > :52:36.and the former Ukip Welcome to both of you. Dick Newby,
:52:37. > :52:40.you are the leader of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords,
:52:41. > :52:43.which has a large contingent of more than 100 unelected peers. Are you
:52:44. > :52:48.going to block Article 50? We will try to amend the Bill. We will be
:52:49. > :52:53.trying to insert in the Bill a provision that the people should
:52:54. > :53:01.have the final say on the outcome of the Brexit negotiations. Do you want
:53:02. > :53:06.a second referendum? We want a first referendum. With the first
:53:07. > :53:11.referendum people voted for a raft of incompatible things. We want to
:53:12. > :53:15.give them the chance to vote on what will be a very specific negotiated
:53:16. > :53:18.outcome. I think it is quite likely we will oppose it. It will be
:53:19. > :53:23.perfectly available for people to vote in favour of Brexit at that
:53:24. > :53:27.point if they agree with the terms. Do you not feel uncomfortable that
:53:28. > :53:30.you would be leading 100 or so unelected peers in frustrating the
:53:31. > :53:35.well of more than 17 million voters in the referendum who called for the
:53:36. > :53:40.EU to live? We're not frustrating the will of the people. Giving
:53:41. > :53:44.people a vote is not frustrating the will of the people. It's
:53:45. > :53:49.implementing the will of the people or allowing them to implement their
:53:50. > :53:52.own will. Said that the fair enough? The House of Lords is there to
:53:53. > :53:57.scrutinise legislation and amendments will be laid down in good
:53:58. > :54:00.faith. It is there to scrutinise legislation but the government
:54:01. > :54:04.couldn't have been clearer when it spent ?9 million on that pamphlet it
:54:05. > :54:08.shoved through every letterbox in the land, in which it said clearly
:54:09. > :54:13.that you, the people, will decide this. It didn't actually put it into
:54:14. > :54:17.the legislation, technically, but there is no doubt about it that that
:54:18. > :54:22.is what was intended, that is what the British people thought they were
:54:23. > :54:30.doing when they voted for Brexit. I would be very surprised if, led by
:54:31. > :54:33.the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, the House of Lords did
:54:34. > :54:41.anything to frustrate that process. I think it would be madness. And,
:54:42. > :54:46.you know, they will be erecting the guillotine in Parliament Square
:54:47. > :54:50.pretty soon. That sounds pretty painful? We tried to amend the House
:54:51. > :54:57.of Lords so we were popularly elected. The Labour Party and the
:54:58. > :55:01.Tories wouldn't agree. According to Malcolm Pearson, it would be
:55:02. > :55:05.madness? We don't believe it would be madness. Giving people a vote
:55:06. > :55:10.could never be madness. We still believe the House of Lords as a role
:55:11. > :55:15.to play but it should be elected. The Supreme Court has upheld that.
:55:16. > :55:20.The government lost its case in the Supreme Court. They have said it is
:55:21. > :55:27.up are parliament to trigger the process of leaving the EU. Do you
:55:28. > :55:34.think those judges are enemies of the people, as described by the
:55:35. > :55:37.Daily Mail? No. I understand they said that Parliament had to be
:55:38. > :55:42.consulted about the triggering of Article 50, which is rather
:55:43. > :55:47.different. They said it had to be an act of Parliament. Yes. I gather
:55:48. > :55:51.that is going to be done soon. That's fine. There can be an act of
:55:52. > :55:55.Parliament to trigger Article 50 and the process will take place. The
:55:56. > :56:05.Prime Minister has said the result of the negotiations will be put
:56:06. > :56:08.again to Parliament. So again, it comes back to Parliament. But you
:56:09. > :56:11.must remember, the House of Lords is a very Europhile place. It's stuffed
:56:12. > :56:15.full of former EU Commissioner 's and assorted mischief who have
:56:16. > :56:18.actually brought this country into the bog with the European Union
:56:19. > :56:23.where we are. So the House of Lords will be very grudging about this.
:56:24. > :56:27.What do you think about the second referendum idea, or the first
:56:28. > :56:31.referendum idea as Dick Newby says? I don't think people will want it.
:56:32. > :56:37.It is pretty clear we will be able to do a very good deal with the EU.
:56:38. > :56:40.If you look at jobs, they have got 3 million more jobs selling things to
:56:41. > :56:47.us than we have to them. We held every card in the pack. On mutual
:56:48. > :56:50.residence, they have got 3 million people living here, we have 1.2
:56:51. > :56:58.million living there. Why is this going to be so difficult? It's not.
:56:59. > :57:03.It is in our interests to give us a painless exit from this ill-fated
:57:04. > :57:08.venture. We don't know what the negotiations are going to be. But
:57:09. > :57:12.divorce negotiations tend not to be happy, jolly events. Unless
:57:13. > :57:15.everybody would like to get something positive out of it?
:57:16. > :57:20.Everybody would like to get something out of it. Frankfurt would
:57:21. > :57:25.like to get City jobs, so would Paris, so would Dublin. Berlin would
:57:26. > :57:28.like to get our high-tech jobs. The negotiations will bear those jobs
:57:29. > :57:35.are very much in mind. Suzanne Evans, Ukip's Deputy chair, says
:57:36. > :57:41.judges should be subjected to some sort of democratic control. Do you
:57:42. > :57:46.agree? No, I don't think I do. It is very important for the separation of
:57:47. > :57:50.powers that Parliament and the executive and the judiciary, and
:57:51. > :57:55.indeed the church, remain... So you think today was a good day in terms
:57:56. > :58:00.of democracy? Think of is proper that it should happen. I regret the
:58:01. > :58:03.decision of the majority of the judges. But one wouldn't be
:58:04. > :58:09.surprised about that because on the whole are judges are pretty
:58:10. > :58:15.politically correct. You think they are Europhiles? I didn't say that!
:58:16. > :58:22.Are the Lib Dems moving away from the centre of the -- politics? Only
:58:23. > :58:31.a quarter of the support your call for a second referendum? I think
:58:32. > :58:34.that we saw erichment, and we are seeing weekly in by-elections, that
:58:35. > :58:37.many people support exactly what we are standing for. We look forward to
:58:38. > :58:38.this being chewed over in Parliament.
:58:39. > :58:40.That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.
:58:41. > :58:43.The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:44. > :58:47.I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow with Andrew, for live coverage
:58:48. > :58:54.Do join us then. Bye bye.