:00:37. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:54.Theresa May signals a shift in UK foreign policy as she rules out
:00:55. > :00:57.future military action unless it's in our interests to intervene.
:00:58. > :00:59.The PM meets Donald Trump in the White House later today -
:01:00. > :01:02.the first foreign leader to meet the new president.
:01:03. > :01:05.We'll discuss her hopes of an early trade deal with the States.
:01:06. > :01:07.Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit problems mount up as his stance on Article 50
:01:08. > :01:10.prompts one frontbencher to resign and more signal they'll
:01:11. > :01:21.And it's the EU's answer to House of Cards, a new political TV drama
:01:22. > :01:34.That sounds like my kind of television.
:01:35. > :01:37.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:38. > :01:39.of the programme today the journalist and author
:01:40. > :01:42.Rachel Shabi, and Peter Hitchens, who writes for the Mail on Sunday.
:01:43. > :01:46.So, Theresa May arrived in the States yesterday for her meeting
:01:47. > :01:49.She kicked off her visit, though, with a speech
:01:50. > :01:55.to Republican politicians during which she asserted the need
:01:56. > :02:02.for a strong Nato alliance, urged President Trump to engage
:02:03. > :02:06.but beware of Russia and reiterated the UK's
:02:07. > :02:08.opposition to the use of torture in
:02:09. > :02:12.But Theresa May made headlines with a section of her speech
:02:13. > :02:14.in which she signalled a change of approach towards
:02:15. > :02:24.It is in our interests, those of Britain and America together,
:02:25. > :02:27.to stand strong together to defend our values,
:02:28. > :02:33.our interests and the very ideas in which we believe.
:02:34. > :02:36.This cannot mean a return to the failed policies of the past.
:02:37. > :02:41.The days of Britain and America intervening in sovereign countries
:02:42. > :02:45.in an attempt to remake the world in our own image are over.
:02:46. > :02:49.But nor can we afford to stand idly by when the threat is real
:02:50. > :02:54.and when it is in our own interests to intervene.
:02:55. > :02:56.We must be strong, smart and hard-headed and we must
:02:57. > :03:06.demonstrate the resolve necessary to stand up for our interests.
:03:07. > :03:13.Philadelphia yesterday. I think both of you would be pretty radical of
:03:14. > :03:16.what you might call the Blairite interventionist policy, Mr Cameron
:03:17. > :03:20.did not go down that road although he did in Libya. You must be quite
:03:21. > :03:27.pleased by what you have heard there? Pleased, no. There is a wider
:03:28. > :03:31.picture here which isn't necessarily what she says or doesn't say about
:03:32. > :03:36.military intervention, given that whatever she says is with a mind to
:03:37. > :03:41.placating Donald Trump. It is the fact that she is getting engaged
:03:42. > :03:48.with the US president in this way, I'd US president who at best can be
:03:49. > :03:56.described as a lying, off right-wing populist who has no respect for the
:03:57. > :03:59.current institutions and mechanisms in the global sense that maintain
:04:00. > :04:04.stability and security in any meaningful way. So too allied
:04:05. > :04:08.herself in any way with a US foreign policy, given the direction it is
:04:09. > :04:13.likely to take, I think is dangerous and not good for Britain. Is only
:04:14. > :04:18.saying this to placate Donald Trump? Do you think she would not be saying
:04:19. > :04:21.it anyway? I do not think she is saying it's too but Kate Donald
:04:22. > :04:24.Trump but on the other hand, it is not as good as good as it looks. A
:04:25. > :04:28.large chunk of the speech mentions the fact that we are sending 800
:04:29. > :04:33.troops to the Baltic republics in Poland, which is a mad thing for
:04:34. > :04:37.Britain to be doing. Our policy towards Russia has become almost as
:04:38. > :04:44.insane as our former policies to Iraq. It is a different type of
:04:45. > :04:47.lunacy. She has drawn the distinction between wars of
:04:48. > :04:53.intervention and supporting Nato. She has but I am not sure distinct.
:04:54. > :04:59.This suppose Russian aggression, involving a voluntary departure
:05:00. > :05:03.along hundreds of thousands of square miles of territory, into an
:05:04. > :05:08.area with economic insignificance. And we still go on about it as if it
:05:09. > :05:10.was a terrifying superpower about to squeeze the continent, and act
:05:11. > :05:16.accordingly by building up the fears in Eastern Europe and the Baltics
:05:17. > :05:20.which we claim through Nato to be soothing. It is a very odd posture
:05:21. > :05:23.and one of the very few sensible things which Donald Trump has said
:05:24. > :05:26.about foreign policy is that he thinks Nato is obsolete. It is
:05:27. > :05:30.obsolete, as obsolete as mounting an alliance against the
:05:31. > :05:38.Austro-Hungarian Empire or Napoleon Bonaparte. The Foreign Secretary has
:05:39. > :05:43.also said that we need to think afresh on how we handle Syria,
:05:44. > :05:48.hinting that Mr Assad could be allowed to run for election, if he
:05:49. > :05:51.wants. That is just recognising, I would suggest, that Mr Assad is safe
:05:52. > :05:55.as long as the Russians are backing him and that we really have no
:05:56. > :05:58.influence there. I think there is a danger. When we look at what
:05:59. > :06:03.happened over the last few months in terms of the Foreign Secretary, and
:06:04. > :06:12.what has been said, and it all started with Nigel Farage being the
:06:13. > :06:19.first to meet to Boris -- Donald Trump. And it is setting us on a
:06:20. > :06:23.course of normalising Donald Trump, although his intentions are not
:06:24. > :06:26.normal. Syria might be a reflection of realities on the ground but when
:06:27. > :06:40.you look at something like Trump's statements regarding Israel, and
:06:41. > :06:44.Theresa May displeased many in the region by ally in Britain to the US
:06:45. > :06:48.president in a way which was a change of tack for the UK, and the
:06:49. > :06:54.wrong change. I would suggest that the Foreign Secretary's statement is
:06:55. > :07:02.a recognition that Syria is now a Russians are at it. It is an
:07:03. > :07:06.extraordinary pull-back from a policy which has been defeated.
:07:07. > :07:11.There are talks of safe stones being set up in Syria this morning which
:07:12. > :07:15.some people say is a dangerous return to attempt to intervene. That
:07:16. > :07:19.is for refugees? Supposedly but it could develop into more calls for
:07:20. > :07:22.no-fly zones, but we note the military convocations of that. I
:07:23. > :07:26.don't think it is entirely over yet but certainly it seems to be one of
:07:27. > :07:31.the most dangerous policies which we have adopted over the past several
:07:32. > :07:34.years has come to an end. And the absolute refusal to even begin to
:07:35. > :07:41.see the possibility that the Assad government might survive has been
:07:42. > :07:44.rather quietly stitched. I'm going to stop you there because we have a
:07:45. > :07:45.lot to cover. We will return to some of these themes.
:07:46. > :07:49.Theresa May is the first foreign leader to meet Donald Trump.
:07:50. > :07:52.But which leader has been the first to cancel a meeting
:07:53. > :07:58.First Minister Nicola Sturgeon of Scotland.
:07:59. > :08:04.Or President Enrique Pena Nieto of Mexico?
:08:05. > :08:07.At the end of the show, Rachel and Peter will no doubt give
:08:08. > :08:14.Later today, the Prime Minister will meet President Trump
:08:15. > :08:16.for face-to-face talks - as the first foreign leader
:08:17. > :08:18.to visit the White House since he became president.
:08:19. > :08:21.The PM's trip comes at the end of a frenetic first week
:08:22. > :08:26.for Donald Trump, who has been busy putting pen to paper.
:08:27. > :08:32.Among the dozens of executive orders he's signed so far,
:08:33. > :08:35.he's instructed officials to begin planning the border wall he promised
:08:36. > :08:39.to build, and to scale back Barack Obama's Affordable Care Act.
:08:40. > :08:41.Maybe as a precursor to getting rid of it altogether.
:08:42. > :08:46.So what are Mrs May and Mr Trump likely to discuss this afternoon?
:08:47. > :08:49.A possible US-UK trade deal is likely to be
:08:50. > :08:52.While the UK can't begin to negotiate new trade deals
:08:53. > :08:55.until it leaves the EU, Mr Trump has said he wants
:08:56. > :09:04.Mrs May is also likely to remind the new president
:09:05. > :09:07.of the strategic importance of NATO - an alliance that he has
:09:08. > :09:13.The PM may also want to discuss how the US and UK deal
:09:14. > :09:21.Mr Trump has been full of praise for Russia's President Putin
:09:22. > :09:24.and says it's "an asset, not a liability" if he has
:09:25. > :09:26.a relationship with him - a stance that has alarmed some
:09:27. > :09:33.Mrs May is also under pressure to reject Mr Trump's
:09:34. > :09:38.She has already suggested that the UK could scale back
:09:39. > :09:42.on intelligence sharing if the US reintroduces torture.
:09:43. > :09:46.She's also said she won't be afraid to challenge the president,
:09:47. > :09:52.who continues to court controversy, telling the BBC:
:09:53. > :09:54."Whenever there is something that I find
:09:55. > :09:58.unacceptable I won't be afraid to say that to Me Trump."
:09:59. > :10:04.We've been joined from Strasbourg by the Conservative MP Nigel Evans,
:10:05. > :10:06.who attended Donald Trump's inauguration last week,
:10:07. > :10:09.and in the studio the joint leader of the Green Party,
:10:10. > :10:19.Nigel Evans, you have met Mr Trump. You were in Washington before Mrs
:10:20. > :10:27.May, what is his attitude to Britain? Well, I think we have a
:10:28. > :10:32.great opportunity to rekindle the special relationship which Theresa
:10:33. > :10:36.May spoke about to the Republican congressional retreat in
:10:37. > :10:40.Philadelphia. I think she mentioned the special relationship about eight
:10:41. > :10:44.times and the warm welcome that she had by those congressmen and
:10:45. > :10:49.senators was absolutely superb. I spoke to a lot of congressmen,
:10:50. > :10:52.Senators during the four days I was in Washington during your
:10:53. > :10:57.inauguration and whenever I mention Brexit, they were lapping it up. --
:10:58. > :11:01.during the inauguration. It did not matter whether they were Republican
:11:02. > :11:06.or Democrat, the thumbs were up. They were keen to get a speedy trade
:11:07. > :11:09.deal done between the UK and the US. If President Trump we have a man
:11:10. > :11:13.whose mother was Scottish, who has got a couple of businesses in
:11:14. > :11:17.Scotland in golf courses, who was in favour of Brexit and wants to do a
:11:18. > :11:21.trade deal with the United Kingdom as quickly as possible. He put the
:11:22. > :11:29.bust of Winston chill back in the Oval Office as one of his first
:11:30. > :11:34.acts. What is there that we need to do? Engage with Donald Trump as much
:11:35. > :11:38.as we can. Theresa May is the first world leader to meet Donald Trump
:11:39. > :11:45.since becoming president. And we have said that about four times now
:11:46. > :11:53.so it must be true. Angela Merkel has asked to see him, and he has not
:11:54. > :12:00.even reply to her. But the fact that he wants to be their... Don't get
:12:01. > :12:04.sidetracked. We're leaving the EU, which many people feel leaves us a
:12:05. > :12:07.little bit without friends. There is a powerful man in the Oval Office
:12:08. > :12:11.who wants to be our best friend. Why would we not take him up on that?
:12:12. > :12:18.Because it puts us in a very weak position. We are the junior partner,
:12:19. > :12:21.looking quite desperate. Theresa May looks quite desperate, falling over
:12:22. > :12:25.herself to be the first in the queue. I think she should've bided
:12:26. > :12:32.her time and gone with some clear red lines, particularly around
:12:33. > :12:38.torture and Paris climate talks. We were on torture. She is in favour of
:12:39. > :12:43.the Paris climate deal. Britain is not going to unsigned that. But she
:12:44. > :12:47.should have gone saying that it was a red line for us. She needs
:12:48. > :12:50.leadership. Rightly or wrongly, he is against it and the British
:12:51. > :12:54.government cannot change his mind on it. So suddenly we have not any
:12:55. > :12:58.influence? Either we are going to show leadership or we are not.
:12:59. > :13:03.Mexico are showing us up at the moment, playing hardball. What we
:13:04. > :13:06.have is a situation where we put ourselves in extreme Brexit context,
:13:07. > :13:09.going cap in hand to America saying, what can you give us in terms of the
:13:10. > :13:14.trade deal? Of course Donald Trump is welcoming her with open arms
:13:15. > :13:20.because he knows he can ride roughshod all over her. He sees a
:13:21. > :13:25.desperate Prime Minister asking what they can give her. Donald Trump is
:13:26. > :13:28.at the best unpredictable, uncertain, possibly unreliable. Is
:13:29. > :13:35.it wise for British Prime Minister to put all your eggs in this basket?
:13:36. > :13:42.She is not putting all her eggs in one basket. She's going to be out
:13:43. > :13:45.looking, she said to the congressmen. But trade with the US
:13:46. > :13:50.will be massive in terms of leverage when we are talking about a trade
:13:51. > :13:53.deal with the EU. Our neighbours in Europe, after we have done a deal
:13:54. > :13:59.with the US, are they going to punish us? Because that is the voice
:14:00. > :14:02.we are hearing at this moment in time. Donald Trump is a different
:14:03. > :14:06.sort of president, we know that. He says things in a different sort of
:14:07. > :14:11.way. The fact is, on building the wall, between Mexico and the United
:14:12. > :14:14.States, the fact is that he has started the progress on that
:14:15. > :14:17.straightaway. I think he is likely to be the first politician in
:14:18. > :14:23.history to be roundly criticised for keeping its promises. He has said
:14:24. > :14:27.that that was what he was going to do and he was elected by over 63
:14:28. > :14:33.million people. We have to recognise that he is the President of the
:14:34. > :14:38.United States. Influence is what I wanted to come onto. One of the
:14:39. > :14:43.tests for Mrs May's influence will be whether from her point of view
:14:44. > :14:46.and from Europe's point of view, particularly from the Germans, can
:14:47. > :14:50.she bring him round to her way of thinking on Nato or not?
:14:51. > :14:57.That is one thing that she did clearly speak to the congressmen
:14:58. > :15:01.about, which was, yes, Nato may not be as effective as it should be,
:15:02. > :15:07.that is an understatement in itself, but we will spend 2% on defence and
:15:08. > :15:11.it will increase in every parliamentary year up to 2020, and
:15:12. > :15:17.she would use her influence with other European leaders to be able to
:15:18. > :15:21.do just the same. Nato is in need of reform and she stated that the
:15:22. > :15:25.congressman, it is not like we will sit back and say everything is
:15:26. > :15:31.hunky-dory, we have already pointed out, there is that gaping problem
:15:32. > :15:37.with Nato. The fact that we are spending 2% of our GDP on defence
:15:38. > :15:40.and a lot of other European countries are basically taking a
:15:41. > :15:44.free ride on the backs of the United Kingdom and the United States of
:15:45. > :15:47.America will simply not be tolerated, they have to wake up and
:15:48. > :15:50.realise that they had to pay their contribution towards their own
:15:51. > :15:55.defence. Jonathan Bartley, do you care if
:15:56. > :15:59.Nato is modernised? Are you in favour? We have been very
:16:00. > :16:03.critical of Nato and there is common ground in what Peter said earlier
:16:04. > :16:11.about Nato, it is a relic of the Cold War. When Donald Trump calls it
:16:12. > :16:14.obsolete, you agree? In a time when we see increasing insecurity, it is
:16:15. > :16:19.not the time to make drastic or snap decisions around Nato. You called it
:16:20. > :16:23.a relic, Donald Trump called it obsolete, you agree with Donald
:16:24. > :16:28.Trump? In some cases there will be common ground... Another one that is
:16:29. > :16:36.common ground, Donald Trump has essentially canned the trade Pacific
:16:37. > :16:39.partnership, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and TTIP, the north
:16:40. > :16:45.Atlantic equivalent, is dead in the water. You approve of that? We will
:16:46. > :16:51.see TTIP on steroids coming back, we will be handed a trade deal with
:16:52. > :16:55.very little say over it. Donald Trump is now against multilateral
:16:56. > :16:59.trade deals, your party has campaigned against multilateral
:17:00. > :17:02.trade deals. We are looking at a bilateral trade deal with the
:17:03. > :17:08.States. What will that look like? TTIP might be the blueprint. If we
:17:09. > :17:14.go there without much to negotiate will be just accept free access to
:17:15. > :17:17.the NHS from American countries? That was part of TTIP, presumably
:17:18. > :17:22.becomes part of the debate which the British House of Commons will have
:17:23. > :17:25.to decide. It is very hard to the special relationship with the
:17:26. > :17:28.country talking about America first, America will try to squeeze
:17:29. > :17:35.everything out of the UK they possibly can. That is what they do,
:17:36. > :17:38.the United States' relationship with this country has always been one of
:17:39. > :17:42.straightforward hard self-interest, the fantasy of the special
:17:43. > :17:45.relationship does not standard to an examination. The only real special
:17:46. > :17:50.relationship United States houses with Saudi Arabia, that is truly
:17:51. > :17:53.close. They are baffled by our insistence on including this phrase
:17:54. > :17:57.in documents, they are slightly embarrassed but will do it on
:17:58. > :18:02.occasion. This is a glorified selfie whether British primers to the White
:18:03. > :18:06.House, gets him herself photographed with the American president and
:18:07. > :18:11.hopes to bask in reflected importance. This comes back to risks
:18:12. > :18:15.involved? It is not glorifying selfie, that is the problem. I do
:18:16. > :18:19.not know what shade of immoral you have to be to look at what President
:18:20. > :18:24.Trump has done in the last week, among the highlights are announcing
:18:25. > :18:27.that he to build a wall, announcing a partial ban on Muslims and
:18:28. > :18:33.announcing that he wants to monitor the crimes of migrants, that is
:18:34. > :18:39.straight out of a Nazi handbook. I don't know how... Is the implication
:18:40. > :18:43.of all this, we know this is what he stands for, is it that the British
:18:44. > :18:48.Government should have nothing to do with him? I don't know how you can
:18:49. > :18:51.look at that in talk in terms of shared values, which is what Theresa
:18:52. > :18:56.May has... That is the answer to your question. We should have
:18:57. > :19:01.nothing to do with him? I agree we should bide our time and not rush to
:19:02. > :19:05.make friends with him and born and thereby normalise what he says. If
:19:06. > :19:09.he does not change his views... We are the first leaders to go in, we
:19:10. > :19:14.have a responsibility to the world... Or do you recommend we have
:19:15. > :19:20.nothing to do with him? It is not a binary option, it is whether we bide
:19:21. > :19:24.our time, go in in a dignified manner, say we are worried you would
:19:25. > :19:27.pull out of the Paris agreement, potentially threatening world trade
:19:28. > :19:32.for decades. Those are the occasions. We are talking about
:19:33. > :19:36.trade deals which will affect five or ten years, what about the 20 or
:19:37. > :19:40.30 year picture? It will make as economic worse off if we cannot sort
:19:41. > :19:46.out the biggest threat affecting humanity -- it'll make this economic
:19:47. > :19:51.we were soft. We have a picture of you with Mr Trump, Nigel Evans,
:19:52. > :19:57.shaking hands. That is when he was President-elect. British prime
:19:58. > :20:00.ministers, Labour and Conservative, have always placed great store since
:20:01. > :20:12.Churchill onwards by the special relationship. Is it not the highest
:20:13. > :20:19.of high wire acts to play such store by it when it is Donald Trump in the
:20:20. > :20:22.White House? I tell you what, I would rather Donald Trump in the
:20:23. > :20:26.White House who wants to do a deal with United Kingdom, a trade deal,
:20:27. > :20:31.and I listen to what Jonathan Bartley at has said, that man is
:20:32. > :20:33.clearly not interested in any trader whatsoever, rather than President
:20:34. > :20:37.Barack Obama who came and lectured the British electorate and said
:20:38. > :20:40.Betta vote to stay in the European Union otherwise you will be at the
:20:41. > :20:51.back of the queue for a trade deal. Now we have a president who wanted
:20:52. > :20:53.Brexit, we voted for it, he wants to the congressman this trade deal
:20:54. > :21:02.between the USA and America will not be easy. There is a continuity of
:21:03. > :21:06.interest bringing the UK and USA together. We stood shoulder to
:21:07. > :21:11.shoulder over decades on those areas where we have great interests
:21:12. > :21:17.together. We will not walk away like the Greens want us to do, or Peter
:21:18. > :21:20.Hitchens, or anybody else. He is the president of the United States, we
:21:21. > :21:24.have the opportunity to have influence with him and work with
:21:25. > :21:30.him, that is what we should do. We have run out of time. I have just
:21:31. > :21:32.said we have run as a term that we are coming back to the special
:21:33. > :21:36.relationship, so behave yourself rather than mumbling in the
:21:37. > :21:44.background. The Green Party websites is your policy is to pull out of you
:21:45. > :21:47.know -- Nato unilaterally. You want to get out of Nato and the something
:21:48. > :21:50.better in its place, but now is not the time to mess around with
:21:51. > :21:57.international institutions as the world gets more insecure daily. You
:21:58. > :22:02.are not in favour of pulling out unilaterally? Not now. Peter is
:22:03. > :22:03.still mumbling, but he does a lot of that.
:22:04. > :22:05.Over the years, British Prime Ministers have enjoyed distinctive
:22:06. > :22:08.The friendships forged between leaders have helped to shape
:22:09. > :22:11.world history and brought varying degrees of political fortune.
:22:12. > :22:14.But just how well can Theresa May get along with President Trump,
:22:15. > :22:16.and does the personal chemistry have to be right for the special
:22:17. > :22:31.# Thank you for being a friend. # Travelled down a road and back
:22:32. > :22:35.again. This is known as the Allies bench,
:22:36. > :22:40.it captures the friendship between the American and British wartime
:22:41. > :22:48.leaders. It is also a popular stop on the London to wrist Trail.
:22:49. > :22:51.-- tourist trail. The concept of the special relationship first came
:22:52. > :22:54.about because of President Rousseff valves and Winston Churchill. The
:22:55. > :23:00.British prime ministers first came up with the phrase in a speech after
:23:01. > :23:04.World War II and over 70 years since then, the relationship has seen its
:23:05. > :23:08.ups and downs. -- because of President Roosevelt and Winston
:23:09. > :23:11.Churchill. Reagan and Thatcher were political
:23:12. > :23:18.soul mates, both supporters of Private business and free markets.
:23:19. > :23:24.But things almost went pear shaped when the US invaded grenades, a
:23:25. > :23:31.British Commonwealth country, until the President run-up to apologise.
:23:32. > :23:35.Margaret Thatcher here. If I were there, Margaret, I would tilt my hat
:23:36. > :23:39.in the door before I came in. No need. Listen, we regret very much
:23:40. > :23:43.the embarrassment that has been caused you and I would just like to
:23:44. > :23:49.tell you what the story is from our end out here.
:23:50. > :23:52.The Blair and Bush bromance seemed an unlikely friendship, a Labour
:23:53. > :23:56.leader with a right-wing Republican president. At first it seemed they
:23:57. > :24:01.had little in common apart from using the same brand of toothpaste.
:24:02. > :24:05.Yet Tony Blair ended up being dubbed as America's poodle by the press
:24:06. > :24:11.because of his strong support for President Bush and the Iraq war.
:24:12. > :24:14.Let me thank President Bush for coming here.
:24:15. > :24:21.We are strong allies. The Prime Minister is a man of his word. He
:24:22. > :24:26.has my admiration. And he has the admiration of the American people.
:24:27. > :24:30.Jonathan Pelissie Tony Blair's chief of staff and saw first hand how the
:24:31. > :24:34.Prime Minister got on with George Bush and Bill Clinton -- Jonathan
:24:35. > :24:38.Powell was. So how much of a coup is it that Mrs May is the first leader
:24:39. > :24:42.to meet the new president? Traditionally the first meeting is
:24:43. > :24:46.with the Canadian Prime Minister, Prime Minister Trudeau seems not in
:24:47. > :24:51.a hurry to get to the White House, Angela Merkel is biding her time.
:24:52. > :25:02.Theresa May has won the race but nobody else's competing,
:25:03. > :25:05.so I don't think she can take great pleasure.
:25:06. > :25:08.What would be your top tip to Theresa May? A joint press
:25:09. > :25:10.conference can be very tricky, Tony Blair was tripped up with the one
:25:11. > :25:13.with Bill Clinton on Monica Lewinsky and found the one with George Bush
:25:14. > :25:16.very difficult, talking about Colgate and sharing toothpaste.
:25:17. > :25:20.Theresa May will want to avoid any appearance of being President
:25:21. > :25:23.Trump's golf caddy. She has criticised his remarks about women
:25:24. > :25:28.and Muslims and made it clear that she is not afraid to challenge him.
:25:29. > :25:32.Whenever there is something that I find unacceptable I will not be
:25:33. > :25:35.afraid to say that to Donald Trump. The body language of the two leaders
:25:36. > :25:41.at their first meeting might give away clues to any personal
:25:42. > :25:46.chemistry. Will they ever appear as Paoli as David Cameron and Barack
:25:47. > :25:50.Obama, flipping burgers at this Downing Street barbecue, although
:25:51. > :25:54.differences of opinion on big issues like torture marker cooling in the
:25:55. > :26:01.special relationship -- will they ever appear as pally as David
:26:02. > :26:06.Cameron and Barack Obama? Just as you think it goes away, it
:26:07. > :26:09.always come back, at least on this side of the Atlantic.
:26:10. > :26:13.Barbara Plett Usher, our Washington correspondent, joins us from the
:26:14. > :26:18.White House. Good to have you. We have a rough idea of what Mrs May
:26:19. > :26:22.wants to achieve, any idea what the Trump administration hopes to get
:26:23. > :26:27.out of this? Not really, they have not said very much about the meeting
:26:28. > :26:32.other than Mr Trump's statements at about, yes, Britain is very special.
:26:33. > :26:36.He said yesterday I have been meeting Theresa May and I don't have
:26:37. > :26:40.a commerce Secretary yet but I will have to deal with it, I think that
:26:41. > :26:44.is OK. We have no serious sense of what they want to get out of it. I
:26:45. > :26:48.think it is fair to say that the special relationship is more
:26:49. > :26:52.important to Britain than the United States, I think it has always been
:26:53. > :26:55.that way but particularly so now because the other strategic
:26:56. > :27:02.relationship with the European Union is in flux, so this one... Theresa
:27:03. > :27:05.May can't afford to have this one we can, she has to come through and
:27:06. > :27:09.make a point of saying, yes, we still have other options as world
:27:10. > :27:15.players after Brexit, she wants to get a strong endorsement on that
:27:16. > :27:18.from Mr Trump that he takes Britain seriously and particularly he is
:27:19. > :27:22.willing to do a trade deal with Britain quickly, once the Brexit
:27:23. > :27:27.negotiations are finished. I think that will be the main point of the
:27:28. > :27:30.talks, the discussion about a possible trade deal.
:27:31. > :27:34.Is the trump administration is serious about a trade deal? I have
:27:35. > :27:37.heard some people in the administration say they know that
:27:38. > :27:42.Britain can't sign a deal until it leaves the EU but they would quite
:27:43. > :27:46.like to do heads of agreement. Looking at all the other things Mr
:27:47. > :27:53.Trump is doing and the firing on all sides at the moment, has he got the
:27:54. > :27:57.time to focus on this which, for him, is not imperative for
:27:58. > :28:03.immediate? Does he have the ability to focus on much for any length of
:28:04. > :28:07.time altogether, that is the question. The signal is important.
:28:08. > :28:11.President Obama said Britain would go to the back of the queue if it
:28:12. > :28:16.went to with Brexit, Mr Trump has essentially said we will put you to
:28:17. > :28:19.the front. The details of negotiating another trade deal are
:28:20. > :28:23.quite fraught and will be quite lengthy because they can't sign
:28:24. > :28:28.another deal until Britain has sorted out its relationship with the
:28:29. > :28:31.EU. Although Mrs May has said that we can have talks about what
:28:32. > :28:37.barriers we can remove so we are ready to go on the day, I think the
:28:38. > :28:40.American trade negotiators, who are very tough, will want to see what
:28:41. > :28:46.sort of relationship Britain has with the EU market, what sort of
:28:47. > :28:49.access, before signing a trade deal. That will take years before that is
:28:50. > :28:53.sorted out. It is more about sending a signal.
:28:54. > :28:59.One all-important question, before you go, has the White House yet
:29:00. > :29:05.learned how to spell the Prime Minister's first name? I have heard
:29:06. > :29:09.that they got it wrong on the first attempt, but presumably once that is
:29:10. > :29:12.corrected it will stay corrected throughout the day, but watch this
:29:13. > :29:16.space. We will leave it there, we will know
:29:17. > :29:19.if they can spell her name that the special relationship is alive and
:29:20. > :29:21.well act summation thanks for joining us from the White House in
:29:22. > :29:22.Washington, DC. Now, speaking of special
:29:23. > :29:24.relationships, yesterday Jeremy Corbyn announced
:29:25. > :29:26.that his Labour MPs would be under a three-line whip to vote
:29:27. > :29:28.through the government's Article 50 Bill when it reaches
:29:29. > :29:30.the Commons next month. Since then, though,
:29:31. > :29:33.all hell has broken loose. Overnight two Labour whips
:29:34. > :29:35.responsible for party discipline have said they will likely vote
:29:36. > :29:43.to block Article 50. But neither Thangam Debbonaire nor
:29:44. > :29:45.Jeff Smith said they would resign their position,
:29:46. > :29:47.which could force Jeremy One person who has quit,
:29:48. > :29:57.though, is Tulip Siddiq - seat borders that of Jeremy Corbyn -
:29:58. > :30:01.and Brexit spokesman Keir Starmer. She quit as Shadow Early Years
:30:02. > :30:04.Minister last night saying her loyalty to her constituents meant
:30:05. > :30:09.she had no choice but to resign. Other frontbenchers
:30:10. > :30:11.who said they will vote against the Labour whip
:30:12. > :30:13.are Shadow Transport Minister Daniel Zeichner and Shadow Foreign
:30:14. > :30:15.Minister Catherine West, Sources have said between 60 and 80
:30:16. > :30:23.Labour MPs could rebel, though so far only a handful have
:30:24. > :30:26.said publicly they will vote And the highest profile
:30:27. > :30:35.potential rebel - Shadow Defence Secretary Clive Lewis
:30:36. > :30:37.- yesterday withdrew He said he respected the result
:30:38. > :30:54.of the referendum and would vote To discuss all this we're joined
:30:55. > :31:01.from Cardiff by former Labour And I should mention that we did ask
:31:02. > :31:06.the Labour Party for an interview with a member of Mr Corbyn's Shadow
:31:07. > :31:11.Cabinet but none was available. So we go to Owen Smith. Thank you for
:31:12. > :31:16.joining us. Good morning, Andrew. You have said he will vote against
:31:17. > :31:20.Article 50. The country voted to leave the European Union, so why are
:31:21. > :31:25.you doing that? Because I cannot in all conscience vote for something
:31:26. > :31:28.that I think is in my view going to make the constituents that Ira
:31:29. > :31:32.present poorer, and our country poorer and more isolated in the
:31:33. > :31:39.world. -- the constituents I represent. It will compound the mere
:31:40. > :31:44.politics we have in the West. The Shadow Home Secretary says that MPs
:31:45. > :31:51.like you are undermining democracy. -- the meaner politics. I do not
:31:52. > :31:58.think democracy started on June 23. That was not your zero. We have a
:31:59. > :32:02.long-standing mandate as MPs to be representatives of our constituents
:32:03. > :32:07.and use our judgment in representing them. I'm not a delegate for my
:32:08. > :32:09.constituency. In my constituency, I know there is one piece of academic
:32:10. > :32:16.research that has been done looking at which way my constituents voted,
:32:17. > :32:19.suggesting they voted 55-45 to remain within the EU, so in that
:32:20. > :32:23.regard, I am reflecting their view. My view is that this is bad for
:32:24. > :32:27.Britain and the Labour Party needs to speak up for our convictions as
:32:28. > :32:32.pro Europeans, and more importantly as people who will defend jobs and
:32:33. > :32:35.opportunities and growth in our GDP in the UK. We think Brexit is bad
:32:36. > :32:42.for those things, so we should vote against it. How many do you reckon
:32:43. > :32:48.like-minded Labour MPs are? I do not know. It could be between 20 and 50.
:32:49. > :32:51.People will be making their minds up over the next few days. There are
:32:52. > :32:55.obviously will be other opportunities for people to express
:32:56. > :32:59.their views in respects to aspects of it, the customs union, the single
:33:00. > :33:01.market, but for my money we should be seeking to get another
:33:02. > :33:06.referendum, at the end of the process, and that is one of the
:33:07. > :33:11.amendments that I have tabled yesterday. I will also be voting
:33:12. > :33:15.against Article 50, I imagine, because I doubt very much whether my
:33:16. > :33:19.amendment will pass. Let's be generous and say you have got 50
:33:20. > :33:24.Labour MPs that think the way that you do. You have one conservative,
:33:25. > :33:29.the Lib Dems, one green, and the Scottish Nationalists, of course. So
:33:30. > :33:39.the rebellion has already failed on take-off. A bit like a Trident
:33:40. > :33:44.missile. I not anticipating... Off in the wrong direction and then into
:33:45. > :33:47.the sea. Too demure slightly, I think we're going in the right
:33:48. > :33:53.direction but you might be right in that the end point will be that we
:33:54. > :33:57.land in the sea. I am not anticipating that we will stop
:33:58. > :34:00.Article 50. There is a majority in the Labour Party and the Tories to
:34:01. > :34:04.get that past. The right thing for me to do, and I think the right
:34:05. > :34:08.thing for Labour to do is stand against it. But I appreciate that I
:34:09. > :34:14.am in a sizeable minority on that point. I understand, but the reason
:34:15. > :34:18.why the government can bank on a clear majority for Article 50,
:34:19. > :34:23.without even having to hold its breath or by tits nails, is because
:34:24. > :34:33.your party has opposed a 3-line whip to vote for Article 50. -- by its
:34:34. > :34:43.nails. If it fails to get its way, that will be down to your party.
:34:44. > :34:46.Yes. That is the best answer I have had in weeks. Is it not fair to say
:34:47. > :34:51.that Jeremy Corbyn is between a rock and a hard place on this? He opposes
:34:52. > :34:56.a 3-line whip and he gets to rebellion and we all say, he cannot
:34:57. > :35:00.even do that! If he does not propose a 3-line whip, we will say that on
:35:01. > :35:04.this vital issue, the biggest issue that Britain has had to take, you
:35:05. > :35:07.have not even got a policy. I would suggest that no matter who is leader
:35:08. > :35:11.of the Labour Party at the moment, this would be a real problem. I
:35:12. > :35:16.agree with that. It is an unpalatable decision, like any
:35:17. > :35:21.decision would be horrible for different reasons. And that speaks
:35:22. > :35:28.to Labour's problem trying to bridge its voters who are in both remain
:35:29. > :35:32.and leave camps. But I think that a lot of this would be avoided by the
:35:33. > :35:37.Labour Party having a much clearer tone on the kind of Brexit that it
:35:38. > :35:43.wants. And that come through. There are not many things they could do
:35:44. > :35:47.about policy. There is no white paper, no plan. But a lot of it
:35:48. > :35:51.relies on optics and tone. And I am not sure, I am not convinced that is
:35:52. > :35:58.something the party is getting right at the moment. What do you make of
:35:59. > :36:02.this, Peter? It is quite funny that Jeremy Corbyn, often derided as on
:36:03. > :36:04.the edge of madness, has done something so sensible, and is now
:36:05. > :36:08.being opposed by people whose attitude seems to be little short of
:36:09. > :36:12.crazy. The British public have voted to leave the European Union and any
:36:13. > :36:18.party which publicly stands to defy that decision is putting itself in a
:36:19. > :36:23.position of derision, and use and we cannot do that. However you want to
:36:24. > :36:26.oppose what has happened in the referendum, saying that we do not
:36:27. > :36:33.accept this result and we will carry on sulking until you give us another
:36:34. > :36:38.cake is not going to work. Jeremy Corbyn's decision was the only
:36:39. > :36:41.conceivable move. And these poorer desperate playwrights have seen
:36:42. > :36:45.their raison d'etre seized by the Conservative Party, because they do
:36:46. > :36:50.not know what to do. I think they should join the Conservative Party.
:36:51. > :36:53.I am not holding my breath for that. Sensible thing is so seldom happen
:36:54. > :36:58.but it would be the right thing. I understand that and that is your
:36:59. > :37:03.view. Owen Smith, Labour has some crucial by-elections coming up on
:37:04. > :37:09.that the 23rd, we will be live bringing the results to you. I want
:37:10. > :37:14.to run you a clip from Jeremy Corbyn, which is to do with the
:37:15. > :37:15.Copeland constituency in the North West of England. This is what he had
:37:16. > :37:16.to say. Do you support the building
:37:17. > :37:19.of a new nuclear power plant There's going to be a mix of energy
:37:20. > :37:23.production in this country for a long time to come,
:37:24. > :37:25.because we haven't invested in renewables at the same
:37:26. > :37:27.rate that Germany has. The issue at Moorside
:37:28. > :37:30.is clearly important. Our local candidate
:37:31. > :37:33.strongly supports Moorside. You say your candidate supports it,
:37:34. > :37:36.my question was do you support it? I recognise that there has
:37:37. > :37:39.to be a mix of energy You're saying you don't
:37:40. > :37:41.support Moorside? The Government is going to have
:37:42. > :37:48.to make that decision on the basis of the issues facing the company
:37:49. > :38:02.and the area at the time, That was on ITV yesterday. Owen
:38:03. > :38:06.Smith, in the Copeland constituency you have a very small majority and
:38:07. > :38:11.nuclear power is an enormous issue. A lot of jobs depend on it. There is
:38:12. > :38:14.talk of a new nuclear power station they are, as you have heard. The
:38:15. > :38:18.leader of the Labour Party could not really and the question because his
:38:19. > :38:23.long-standing view has been that he is against such things. -- answer
:38:24. > :38:28.the question. And in Stoke, the other radio or you are defending a
:38:29. > :38:32.majority, larger but not huge, you have picked a candidate who was
:38:33. > :38:36.enthusiastically pro remain in a constituency which is basically the
:38:37. > :38:41.Brexit capital of the Midlands. Does Labour know what it is doing? I'm
:38:42. > :38:48.not in charge of the Labour Party, Andrew. We know that, you failed on
:38:49. > :38:51.that one. As we all know, I did. And therefore I am just a backbencher so
:38:52. > :38:54.you need to ask people in the current leadership of the Labour
:38:55. > :38:59.Party that question. Are you going to lose Copeland to the Tories and
:39:00. > :39:02.Stoke to Ukip? I hope we're going to win both of those seats and I am
:39:03. > :39:07.going up to Copeland to campaign there in a week or so myself.
:39:08. > :39:12.Nuclear is a very important issue there and the Labour Party's
:39:13. > :39:16.position, my position is that we are pro civil nuclear. There is a very
:39:17. > :39:19.good case for building a new plant there. I know there is huge support
:39:20. > :39:23.for it locally and I'm sure we be on the doorstep doing delete my getting
:39:24. > :39:28.our message out there during the campaign. Are you going to stalk as
:39:29. > :39:34.well? Hopefully, if I have time. Surely you must make time, to save
:39:35. > :39:36.this seat for your party. Unfortunately, the Tories are put to
:39:37. > :39:40.the Brexit bill right in the middle of our campaign but I am sure I will
:39:41. > :39:43.go. It also looks like the Tories will not fight Stoke very much and
:39:44. > :39:47.will put their emphasis into Copeland in the hope that if Labour
:39:48. > :39:52.loses in Stoke, it will be to Ukip, and the Tories will try to take
:39:53. > :39:59.Copeland. You have challenged Mr Corbyn once. Even if he loses these
:40:00. > :40:05.two by-elections, which I think would be pretty unprecedented in
:40:06. > :40:09.modern times, in the midterm of a government, for the main opposition
:40:10. > :40:15.party to lose two by-elections. The tradition in our country is that
:40:16. > :40:20.opposition parties win by-elections. Does that threaten Mr Corbyn in
:40:21. > :40:25.anyway or has that horse left the stable? If you mean is that going to
:40:26. > :40:30.be another challenge, I think that horse has left the stable, to borrow
:40:31. > :40:35.your phrase. I see no prospect of that, certainly none of mine doing
:40:36. > :40:40.that -- my doing that. If we lost those seats, they have been Labour
:40:41. > :40:45.seats for the best part of 80, 90, even 100 years in one case. That
:40:46. > :40:48.would be disastrous. But I hope and expect that we will retain them.
:40:49. > :40:49.Owen Smith, thank you for joining us.
:40:50. > :40:51.You could be forgiven for thinking that all the legal wrangling
:40:52. > :40:54.over the UK's departure from the European Union is now over.
:40:55. > :40:57.After all, the Supreme Court brought an end to the long-running Brexit
:40:58. > :41:00.case on Tuesday with its judgement that only Parliament, not ministers,
:41:01. > :41:03.can trigger Article 50 - the formal method of kicking off
:41:04. > :41:06.But as of today a new legal challenge is underway.
:41:07. > :41:08.A case has been filed with the Irish High Court
:41:09. > :41:10.about whether Article 50 is reversible or, as some
:41:11. > :41:24.In other words, you can turn it back.
:41:25. > :41:26.The litigants are hoping that the case will be referred
:41:27. > :41:30.to the European Court of Justice and that judges there will rule that
:41:31. > :41:32.even after Article 50 has been triggered we could,
:41:33. > :41:35.in theory, just change our mind and maybe even decide to stay
:41:36. > :41:41.When the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU,
:41:42. > :41:46.David Davis, appeared in front of the Brexit Select Committee last
:41:47. > :41:49.month, he said that even he didn't know whether Article 50
:41:50. > :42:00.As recently as October, at least one head of government was saying,
:42:01. > :42:07.And many of the others still feel it can't really happen.
:42:08. > :42:09.So that's partly the sort of mindset that's still...
:42:10. > :42:14.As we get further into this, once we've served the Article 50 letter,
:42:15. > :42:18.one of the virtues of the Article 50 process is it sets you on the way.
:42:19. > :42:20.It's very, very difficult to see it being revoked.
:42:21. > :42:23.It may not be revocable, I don't know.
:42:24. > :42:33.And I expect at least at that point people's calculation will change
:42:34. > :42:36.from "How can we make them change their minds?"
:42:37. > :42:44.And we've been joined by Jolyon Maugham, one of the people
:42:45. > :42:46.bringing the case in Dublin, and by Gunnar Beck from
:42:47. > :42:48.Lawyers for Britain - a pro-Brexit campaign group.
:42:49. > :42:56.One thing our viewers will want to know first of all, why Dublin?
:42:57. > :43:02.Because the essence of the complaint is that by excluding the United
:43:03. > :43:07.Kingdom from cancel meetings in advance of serving Article 50
:43:08. > :43:12.notice, the United Kingdom has been disadvantaged. That is a complaint
:43:13. > :43:15.that can only be taken in the courts of the countries that have
:43:16. > :43:20.disadvantaged the United Kingdom so you are looking at the remaining 27
:43:21. > :43:25.courts and of them, Ireland is the natural choice, similar legal
:43:26. > :43:28.system, same operating language, and also Irish courts are very
:43:29. > :43:34.accustomed to dealing with the court of justice in Luxembourg. That
:43:35. > :43:38.explains Dublin. What is it that you hope to establish? Well, look, this
:43:39. > :43:43.is a very, very uncertain world we live in. Donald Trump has come on
:43:44. > :43:47.Andy he is changing everything. He is talking about Nato being obsolete
:43:48. > :43:53.and we are going to see a whole new trade arrangement. Let me accept the
:43:54. > :43:59.uncertain that, what are you hoping to achieve? What I want is a free
:44:00. > :44:02.option for the United Kingdom on hasta siding with the benefit of
:44:03. > :44:11.further evidence that remaining is the right thing for the country. So
:44:12. > :44:16.the government could change its mind and the process of the Article 50
:44:17. > :44:20.negotiations? The government, as always, will be led by what the
:44:21. > :44:23.electorate wanted to do. And if the electorate changes its views about
:44:24. > :44:29.Brexit, then the government will follow. There are many MPs who
:44:30. > :44:33.accept that the result of the referendum requires that we trigger
:44:34. > :44:37.Article 50, but who still have doubts about the wisdom of that
:44:38. > :44:41.course. If they hear loud and strong from voters that that is the right
:44:42. > :44:43.thing to do, I'm sure they will put pressure on the government. The
:44:44. > :44:47.issue in dispute here is whether that would be legal or not. Does it
:44:48. > :44:55.not make sense to establish the legality of that? Well, the fact of
:44:56. > :45:02.the matter is that at present we simply have not got a dispute. The
:45:03. > :45:06.British government have voted to leave the European Union, and the
:45:07. > :45:13.supreme court has stated that it is up to Parliament and the onus is on
:45:14. > :45:20.Parliament to confirm that vote. Once that has happened, Article 50
:45:21. > :45:25.is entirely clear that the United Kingdom will notify its intention to
:45:26. > :45:36.withdraw. Do you believe Article 50 is
:45:37. > :45:39.irrevocable or not? It proceeds on the assumption that when a country
:45:40. > :45:49.notifies its intention to withdraw it means what it says. You think it
:45:50. > :45:54.is irrevocable? It proceeds on the assumption that a country means what
:45:55. > :45:58.it says, just as when any country applies to join the European Union,
:45:59. > :46:07.negotiations for accession are conducted on the basis that that
:46:08. > :46:11.country too means what it says. The man credited with writing
:46:12. > :46:14.Article 50 told the BBC that Article 50 is not irrevocable, if the
:46:15. > :46:19.country was to decide we do not want to leave after all, everybody would
:46:20. > :46:23.be very cross but legally they could not insist. Article 50 does not
:46:24. > :46:28.provide any support for that view. In any event the issue has not
:46:29. > :46:33.risen. Legally speaking, the situation is entirely clear. The
:46:34. > :46:37.Court of Justice has ruled more than 30 years ago that it will not accept
:46:38. > :46:47.references on entirely hypothetical questions. The question not whether
:46:48. > :46:52.the UK wants to reassess its intention to withdraw hasn't arisen
:46:53. > :46:54.yet, we haven't got a dispute, the European Court of Justice shouldn't
:46:55. > :47:01.even look at that. I understand that is your point.
:47:02. > :47:06.Jolyon Maugham, the judgment and as a bream Court of Article 50, it said
:47:07. > :47:09.it cannot be given in qualified or conditional terms and that once
:47:10. > :47:14.given it cannot be withdrawn. That would seem to be something of an
:47:15. > :47:18.Exocet through your case? It would be a powerful Exocet if it was a
:47:19. > :47:23.good point, but it is not. Are you saying the Supreme Court has not
:47:24. > :47:28.made a good point?! Whoever has given you that quote has given you a
:47:29. > :47:33.bad point. I will explain why. If you look at paragraph 26 of the
:47:34. > :47:37.Supreme Court decision, it says very clearly we're not deciding whether
:47:38. > :47:40.Article 50 is bookable, the Government and the claimants both
:47:41. > :47:45.phones are politically convenient to proceed on the assumption that it
:47:46. > :47:56.was but we're not deciding the point -- we're not deciding if article 50
:47:57. > :48:00.is revocable. Rachel? I think it is great, it is one thing to accept the
:48:01. > :48:04.democratic votes, and the public as to respect that, but it raises all
:48:05. > :48:09.kinds of constitutional questions, and I think it is great that we have
:48:10. > :48:13.a system that works, that we have checks and balances on Parliament
:48:14. > :48:19.that work, that is a good thing and we should celebrate that. Peter? It
:48:20. > :48:24.is a good diversion. The serious opponents of our departure from the
:48:25. > :48:28.European Union really need to stop thinking -- start thinking in a
:48:29. > :48:31.broader way. I don't want to offer advice or help them but it would
:48:32. > :48:34.seem to me that they have a much better prospect of frustrating
:48:35. > :48:40.departure from the EU by salami slicing it so much June the
:48:41. > :48:44.negotiations in Parliament but what we end up with is that we move from
:48:45. > :48:48.being as we are now, half-out of the European Union, to being half in it,
:48:49. > :48:55.which would seem the most likely result. These legal diversion seem
:48:56. > :48:59.to be trading on the success of the Supreme Court, which was notable but
:49:00. > :49:03.did not make much difference to the outcome of events, trying to divert
:49:04. > :49:07.us from the centre of this, the negotiations between this country
:49:08. > :49:11.and the EU, and what Parliament then with those, which still seems to be
:49:12. > :49:15.in a great deal of doubt. Do you really think there was a
:49:16. > :49:20.cat's chance in hell that the Government will change its mind? The
:49:21. > :49:25.Government is a political creature, if people change their minds, the
:49:26. > :49:29.Government bill. I think it is a very, very real possibility. I
:49:30. > :49:37.recognise what the political mood is today. I am not stupid, I read the
:49:38. > :49:42.papers, I listen to you, I watch the Daily Politics religiously, of
:49:43. > :49:45.course. But I also believe that the world is changing fast, I believe
:49:46. > :49:49.there is a lot of evidence for what Brexit means that we are still get
:49:50. > :49:54.to see, we don't even have a white paper and I think it is very, very
:49:55. > :49:59.plausible that people will revise their views, and if they do, the
:50:00. > :50:04.Government will fly. Is it your view that Dublin High Court is likely to
:50:05. > :50:10.pass this to the European Court, or do you feel that the Dublin court
:50:11. > :50:14.will throw it out? That is for the Dublin court to decide. It should
:50:15. > :50:18.throw it out, I think the law is quite clear that we have a
:50:19. > :50:21.hypothetical question, it may be interesting, but a hypothetical
:50:22. > :50:26.question should not be referred, that is quite simple. Can we all
:50:27. > :50:31.come to Dublin and watch this unfold? I will buy you a pint. I
:50:32. > :50:34.thought you were going to buy my ticket, the BBC will not!
:50:35. > :50:36.Fans of political TV dramas have feasted on some great
:50:37. > :50:39.series in recent years - from the US remake of House
:50:40. > :50:47.Who would ever have thought that Danish coalition building could
:50:48. > :50:49.become so popular in Britain? Now the Dutch are getting
:50:50. > :50:52.in on the act with a political drama set in the heart of the EU's
:50:53. > :51:04.Brussels HQ. The kind of show covering
:51:05. > :51:06.treating... Treaty negotiations on trade deals, can it ever get the
:51:07. > :51:08.pulses racing? Year is a clip. And because it is an idea,
:51:09. > :51:12.we should be willing to welcome any nation which is special enough
:51:13. > :51:50.to share our values. This is my empire. It has my
:51:51. > :51:52.attention and I'm not even sure what it is about yet!
:51:53. > :51:55.We can talk now to the series writer, Leon de Winter,
:51:56. > :52:04.That is in the Netherlands, of course. What story are you trying to
:52:05. > :52:08.tell, what is the narrative? The narrative... Of course, the
:52:09. > :52:14.background is politics, Brussels, but what is politics? The art of
:52:15. > :52:18.balancing what you wish for, what is necessary and what is possible. It
:52:19. > :52:23.depends upon the characters which one of these three elements is most
:52:24. > :52:28.important to them. Basically you could say every story is about these
:52:29. > :52:35.three elements. The main thing is, let us say, the original idea is
:52:36. > :52:41.nothing to do with politics. We know what original sin is, the oldest
:52:42. > :52:44.profession, the oldest lie in my definition is a female light, who is
:52:45. > :52:48.the father of your child. In which case -- in this case the woman
:52:49. > :52:52.becomes an EU commissioner, had an affair 25 years ago with a young,
:52:53. > :52:59.up-and-coming Russian politician who is now a billionaire and they are
:53:00. > :53:03.both in Brussels, they are conferences, they have their
:53:04. > :53:11.interests and the rest speaks for itself.
:53:12. > :53:16.In house of cards and even in Borgen there was a clear good guy and bad
:53:17. > :53:23.guy, who is the good guy in this series? I have always problems of
:53:24. > :53:31.defining good and bad guy. Maybe you know them, the good guys and the bad
:53:32. > :53:39.guys? I am afraid I couldn't work with these stereotypes. Even the
:53:40. > :53:43.Russian billionaire who is in Brussels talking to his friends in
:53:44. > :53:49.the commission, in parliaments, trying to arrange the best deal for
:53:50. > :53:53.his interests, even he has interesting aspects, even he is not
:53:54. > :53:59.completely evil. And the Dutch Euro Commissioner, the female
:54:00. > :54:07.protagonist, she should be the hero but she is a stuff, and an alpha
:54:08. > :54:13.woman. We know alpha males, this is an alpha female. It is not clear-cut
:54:14. > :54:18.bad, evil, there are many grades of grey and colours, as you know.
:54:19. > :54:22.Absolutely right, and all the best series... What is noticeable about
:54:23. > :54:27.TV drama now, because it is allowed to breathe, it deals in shades of
:54:28. > :54:34.grey now, not black and white. House of Cards had the advantage that it
:54:35. > :54:37.was all based around a position, a person, a pinnacle of power that we
:54:38. > :54:44.all know, the president of the United States. We are not quite sure
:54:45. > :54:50.the pinnacles of power in Brussels, what is the pinnacle of power, what
:54:51. > :54:54.is this all revolving around? All revolving is, of course, the
:54:55. > :55:04.confrontation between interest, ambitions, ego. They fight to gain
:55:05. > :55:11.position, to be wealthy. And people told me even about sex. Yes. Dear
:55:12. > :55:16.me! Things like that happen, I was surprised as well ex-commissioner
:55:17. > :55:23.sex in Brussels?! No wonder this is fiction! The big question we want to
:55:24. > :55:32.know here, in this series, do the British get a punishment beating? I
:55:33. > :55:38.had already finished writing the screenplay, suddenly there is a
:55:39. > :55:45.Brexit and I talk about 28 nations in my story. So should I take one
:55:46. > :55:50.out?! No, let us say it is a bit of an historical series, because I
:55:51. > :55:54.could not see that that was going to happen.
:55:55. > :55:58.Leon, I think it sounds great. The big question is when and where do we
:55:59. > :56:05.see it in the United Kingdom? Well, of course it is produced for a
:56:06. > :56:09.Dutch streaming platform, one of the biggest productions ever in the
:56:10. > :56:16.Netherlands. I would be very shocked if it would not be shown in the UK.
:56:17. > :56:22.Quite right. I will have a word with the director-general of the BBC, we
:56:23. > :56:27.are very close, you know? I met him in 1961, leave it to me! Leon de
:56:28. > :56:31.Winter, good luck with the show, I will seek it out on the web even if
:56:32. > :56:33.it is not shown here, but I'm sure it will be. Thank you for joining
:56:34. > :56:34.us. It started with news of a rogue
:56:35. > :56:37.Trident missile and ended with Theresa May's meeting
:56:38. > :56:39.with Donald Trump. Here's Adam with the lowdown
:56:40. > :56:43.on the political week Theresa May launched her modern
:56:44. > :56:48.industrial strategy on Monday by taking her Cabinet to Warrington,
:56:49. > :56:51.but that was overshadowed by a row over whether she should have told
:56:52. > :56:54.MPs a Trident missile test had All eyes were on the Supreme Court
:56:55. > :57:02.on Tuesday where Lord Neuberger lay The Supreme Court rules
:57:03. > :57:06.that the Government cannot trigger Article 50 without an act
:57:07. > :57:07.of Parliament On Wednesday, Theresa May
:57:08. > :57:15.announced there would be And on Thursday the Government
:57:16. > :57:20.published its one-page Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to back
:57:21. > :57:33.the bill, prompting Tulip Siddique And the Prime Minister jetted off
:57:34. > :57:39.to the States to meet President Donald Trump,
:57:40. > :57:41.saying opposites attract. It's going to be beautiful,
:57:42. > :57:55.just beautiful! There's just time before we go
:57:56. > :58:00.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, which foreign
:58:01. > :58:03.leader has cancelled a meeting President Hollande of France,
:58:04. > :58:07.President Raul Castro of Cuba, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon
:58:08. > :58:10.of Scotland or President Enrique Rachel, Peter - what's
:58:11. > :58:27.the correct answer? President Enrique Pena Nieto, via
:58:28. > :58:32.Twitter. Correct. You beat me to it. I was going to get it, I had no
:58:33. > :58:37.idea, I am not on Twitter. Good place. Mexico has elections coming
:58:38. > :58:38.up in a couple of years, this will play big-time into it, we will see
:58:39. > :58:39.how that works out. Thanks to Rachel, Peter
:58:40. > :58:42.and all my guests. The one o'clock news is starting
:58:43. > :58:45.over on BBC One now. I'll be back on Sunday
:58:46. > :58:47.with the Sunday Politics - The clue is in the name! I will be
:58:48. > :58:55.talking to Nigel Farage. Should've seen Hillary's face.
:58:56. > :59:15.She was stood there with Bill.