:00:37. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Donald Trump's new policy of banning refugees and suspending the entry
:00:44. > :00:46.of foreign nationals from seven countries has caused
:00:47. > :00:51.We'll look at what the changes mean, and how political
:00:52. > :00:56.Should Mr Trump's state visit to the UK to be
:00:57. > :01:05.but Downing Street says it's going ahead and the President
:01:06. > :01:08.With the Brexit bill about to come out of the starting
:01:09. > :01:11.blocks in the Commons, we'll be sizing up the hurdles
:01:12. > :01:20.in the way of Britain's departure from the EU.
:01:21. > :01:26.And, as Desert Island Discs turns 75, we'll be looking back at some
:01:27. > :01:28.of the most famous political castaways who've shared
:01:29. > :01:36.their memories, along with their favourite records.
:01:37. > :01:40.And with us for the whole of the programme today,
:01:41. > :01:43.two MPs who've been castaway in the studio here with me
:01:44. > :01:45.for the next hour - you've no hope of being rescued,
:01:46. > :01:49.It's the Conservative Mims Davies and Labour's Dan Jarvis.
:01:50. > :01:56.First today, let's talk about the clampdown
:01:57. > :01:58.on immigration announced by US President Donald Trump
:01:59. > :02:01.that's been causing controversy around the world.
:02:02. > :02:04.On Friday, Mr Trump signed an executive order halting the US
:02:05. > :02:09.refugee programme for 120 days, indefinitely banning all Syrian
:02:10. > :02:11.refugees and suspending the entry of all nationals from seven
:02:12. > :02:17.Moves to implement the measure triggered anger
:02:18. > :02:22.The British Government's response has also come under fire,
:02:23. > :02:25.with opponents claiming the Prime Minister was
:02:26. > :02:31.The Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, is due to make
:02:32. > :02:33.a statement on the President's new policy later today,
:02:34. > :02:36.and the planned state visit by Mr Trump scheduled for later this
:02:37. > :02:49.A petition on Parliament's website asking for the visit to be cancelled
:02:50. > :02:52.to avoid causing embarrassment to the Queen has passed
:02:53. > :02:54.one million signatures, making it among the most popular
:02:55. > :02:57.since the service started, and Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has
:02:58. > :02:58.called for the event to be postponed.
:02:59. > :03:05.Among all of this there's been a certain amount of confusion
:03:06. > :03:07.about the real impact of Mr Trump's executive order.
:03:08. > :03:10.So who exactly is affected, and for how long will
:03:11. > :03:13.Friday's executive order introduced a 90-day suspension on visas
:03:14. > :03:17.for all nationals from seven Muslim-majority countries -
:03:18. > :03:24.Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen.
:03:25. > :03:27.Initially, dual nationals appeared to be subject to the ban.
:03:28. > :03:31.Over the weekend British Olympian Sir Mo Farah,
:03:32. > :03:34.who was born in Somalia, and the British-Iraqi Conservative
:03:35. > :03:40.MP Nadhim Zahawi spoke of their fear of being unable to travel to the US.
:03:41. > :03:44.Last night, after Boris Johnson sought clarification from US
:03:45. > :03:47.officials, the Foreign Office confirmed UK citizens with dual
:03:48. > :03:50.nationality would only be subject to extra checks
:03:51. > :03:53.if they were travelling to the US from one of
:03:54. > :04:00.White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus said US
:04:01. > :04:03.green-card holders - legal residents -
:04:04. > :04:05.would not be affected, although agencies say people
:04:06. > :04:08.returning from overseas will be assessed on a case-by-case basis
:04:09. > :04:13.before being allowed back into the US.
:04:14. > :04:16.Friday's executive order also brought in a 120-day suspension
:04:17. > :04:20.of the US refugee programme, with an indefinite ban
:04:21. > :04:27.Finally, the order introduces a cap of 50,000 refugees
:04:28. > :04:32.to be accepted in 2017, against a limit of 110,000 set
:04:33. > :04:50.We'll be joined by the Ukip MEP Patrick O'Flynn,
:04:51. > :05:01.For now, isn't he just enacting something he said he would do during
:05:02. > :05:11.the campaign? I think there will burn a fallout, the select committee
:05:12. > :05:16.would have found this unpalatable, and I certainly think we should be
:05:17. > :05:20.doing everything we can to make sure that our national scan travel and
:05:21. > :05:25.that ultimately we are making sure that America knows what it is doing.
:05:26. > :05:28.It is going to affect things globally and what the Prime Minister
:05:29. > :05:33.and Foreign Office are doing behind the scenes is as important is what
:05:34. > :05:37.happens in front of the camera as well. We have got questions and a
:05:38. > :05:41.statement in the house today and I am pleased with the clarifications
:05:42. > :05:44.we had yesterday evening. Why didn't the Prime Minister Theresa May
:05:45. > :05:48.answer the question directly in the way you have just done at the press
:05:49. > :05:51.conference when she had the opportunity to condemn this
:05:52. > :05:56.executive order? Everyone is in a difficult place here. When you are
:05:57. > :06:00.on foreign soil it is probably hard for the Prime Minister today, excuse
:06:01. > :06:07.me, can I just have a word? That is when we use our softer powers behind
:06:08. > :06:10.the scenes. I think it is a very good visit by the Prime Minister
:06:11. > :06:14.overwrought... It has been overshadowed by this, committee was
:06:15. > :06:18.asked pointedly three times, it was not a question of saying, can I have
:06:19. > :06:23.a word about immigration policy, Stewart asked directly about members
:06:24. > :06:27.of the press, did she support or want to criticise the executive
:06:28. > :06:30.order that I have just outlined by President Trump and she did not
:06:31. > :06:36.answer the question. Eventually, when she did, rightly or wrongly,
:06:37. > :06:40.she said it was a matter in terms of immigration for the president and
:06:41. > :06:44.not for her. As a former Foreign Secretary, she has been on the other
:06:45. > :06:49.side of this argument, it is a tricky place to be. You said it is a
:06:50. > :06:53.dangerous thing and can have terrible unforeseen, already is
:06:54. > :06:57.having terrible consequences. It absolutely good, this is 90 days, it
:06:58. > :07:01.is related, I have heard that it is a Muslim ban, it is about the
:07:02. > :07:07.country's America has decided... Is that right or wrong? We could all
:07:08. > :07:11.pick other countries that we feel could be included if this measure
:07:12. > :07:15.was appropriate anyway. Which countries would you be including if
:07:16. > :07:20.you were extending the list? I would not be extended it or signing up to
:07:21. > :07:23.it, and Mo Farah summed up a lot of what my constituents have been
:07:24. > :07:27.saying, and I will be prepared to say that in the House of Commons
:07:28. > :07:31.later today. In a way, Dan Jarvis, wasn't Theresa May write the first
:07:32. > :07:35.anthology cannot affect the immigration policies of the
:07:36. > :07:52.president of the United States? She might
:07:53. > :07:56.not be to affect them but it does not mean she cannot take of you. I
:07:57. > :07:59.suspect Number Ten is probably privately sleeping. They're right
:08:00. > :08:00.and number of items discussed that were useful, around Nato, some of
:08:01. > :08:02.the comments Donald Trump made regarding torture, and all of that
:08:03. > :08:04.has been overshadowed by this announcement, which I think lacks
:08:05. > :08:07.logic and decency. People have to make difficult judgments about the
:08:08. > :08:09.extent to which they feel able to speak out against things they
:08:10. > :08:12.disagree with, we have a special relationship with America, it is
:08:13. > :08:14.important to maintain that, but I think, given the strength of feeling
:08:15. > :08:17.that exists, it would be the right thing for the Prime Minister to be
:08:18. > :08:20.clear about the fact that she does not agree with this, that she
:08:21. > :08:29.condemns this and does not think it is the way to proceed and I hope we
:08:30. > :08:32.will see that, in the next day or two. Do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn
:08:33. > :08:36.that the state visit by Donald Trump to be postponed or cancelled until
:08:37. > :08:39.the ban is lifted? I personally would feel uncomfortable with
:08:40. > :08:43.President Trump coming here under state visit. I do think we have to
:08:44. > :08:47.make difficult judgments with regard to foreign policy, we need to
:08:48. > :08:51.maintain our special relationship with the United States... Would you
:08:52. > :08:55.cancel it or not, if you had the power to do so? I'm not sure I would
:08:56. > :08:58.have arranged it in the first place because this is very early days for
:08:59. > :09:04.President Trump, I would have waited to see how had gone first. That is
:09:05. > :09:07.Jeremy Corbyn right to ask for it to be cancelled or postponed? It is
:09:08. > :09:12.right but I think it needs to be done in the most diplomatic way
:09:13. > :09:16.possible. We are joined now by Patrick O'Flynn in our Stoke studio.
:09:17. > :09:23.Would you like to see a similar Visa ban bought it in here in the UK? I
:09:24. > :09:27.think every country is in charge of its own immigration policy, is the
:09:28. > :09:31.first thing to say, so while what Donald Trump has Voges arbitrary and
:09:32. > :09:35.is temporarily, I take the view that a lot of people are rightly very
:09:36. > :09:42.worried about the Islamist threat and would on the site of Draconian
:09:43. > :09:47.is rather than laxity like Mrs Merkel... So you do see it as
:09:48. > :09:52.Draconian? I think Crispin Blunt said yesterday it seems to be the
:09:53. > :09:54.hallmark of an immature administration, not particularly
:09:55. > :09:59.fully thought through, perhaps a bit arbitrary, but it is a 90 day
:10:00. > :10:03.breathing space and we will see what the Administration comes up with...
:10:04. > :10:09.But my question was, would you like to see a similar ban here? Again,
:10:10. > :10:14.I'm not sure it is a ban, it is not a comprehensive ban... It is a Visa
:10:15. > :10:19.suspension, would you like to see that here? Not a blanket suspension,
:10:20. > :10:24.but I do think it is very important that, with our migration policy, we
:10:25. > :10:28.not only look at people's aptitude and what they can bring to British
:10:29. > :10:33.society in terms of their skills, but also their attitude, do they
:10:34. > :10:37.accept call British principles such as gender equality, freedom of
:10:38. > :10:42.expression, parochialism in our society. Right, but the White House
:10:43. > :10:47.has denied it, but don't these measures, in your mind, in terms of
:10:48. > :10:54.the executive order, amount to a ban on Muslim immigration in all but
:10:55. > :10:57.name? Certainly the countries listed are predominantly Muslim population
:10:58. > :11:04.countries, and it has to be said Donald Trump, in his campaign, did
:11:05. > :11:08.talk about the Islamist threat to American society as well as the West
:11:09. > :11:13.in general, and pretty much signposted this type of very tough
:11:14. > :11:21.action. So you see it as anti-Muslim? I don't see it as
:11:22. > :11:27.anti-Muslim. I hope the intention is to help protect a free Western
:11:28. > :11:31.country against the threat of radical Islamist militant terrorism
:11:32. > :11:37.and all the rest of it. I think, the way the liberal left over year has
:11:38. > :11:41.overreacted and the hysteria, to me, shows a chasm between ordinary
:11:42. > :11:46.common-sense people and the things that they worry about, including the
:11:47. > :11:50.Islamist threat to all Western countries including the United
:11:51. > :11:54.Kingdom... So you would support a ban? To keep the country safe? You
:11:55. > :11:59.said you don't think it is anti-Muslim but you accept that it
:12:00. > :12:01.is about seven countries on a list which are predominantly Muslim
:12:02. > :12:06.countries and Donald Trump said he was calling for a total shutdown of
:12:07. > :12:13.Muslims entering the United States, so how could it be anything but
:12:14. > :12:18.anti-Muslim? I criticised Donald Trump for the way he conducted his
:12:19. > :12:22.campaign, some of the over the top things he said. In terms of the
:12:23. > :12:27.United Kingdom policy, I think ministers will be informed by
:12:28. > :12:33.security briefings and expert assessments, but all I'm saying is I
:12:34. > :12:38.think rigorous vetting is appropriate, and we criticised
:12:39. > :12:42.Donald Trump but the mess Angela Merkel has plunged most of the
:12:43. > :12:49.European continental mainland into by a very lax policy. Are you part
:12:50. > :12:54.of a liberal metropolitan elite bubble of hysteria by condemning
:12:55. > :12:59.what Donald Trump has done? I think anyone would struggle to fit to be
:13:00. > :13:02.in that -- to fit me in that particular category. If we are going
:13:03. > :13:06.to talk about common sense, that people like Mo Farah and others are
:13:07. > :13:10.not going to be able to travel back to the place where they are living
:13:11. > :13:14.to be reunited with their family, it seems the execution of his policy,
:13:15. > :13:19.whether you agree with it or not, has been very poorly done, it has
:13:20. > :13:23.not been thought through and all of the relevant government department
:13:24. > :13:31.in the United States have not been consulted, so I hope real lessons
:13:32. > :13:34.will be learned by the American Administration as to how this has
:13:35. > :13:36.been done. And what about the protests? Patrick O'Flynn says there
:13:37. > :13:39.has been left-wing hysteria, is that how you see it? No, there is genuine
:13:40. > :13:44.concern with the fact that well over 1 million people have already signed
:13:45. > :13:48.a petition, many of my constituents have been in touch to express their
:13:49. > :13:53.concerns. This is people standing up for what they believe in, it is a
:13:54. > :13:57.perfectly healthy thing. When it comes to logic, no fatal attacks on
:13:58. > :14:01.US soil have been committed by nationals from those seven countries
:14:02. > :14:05.on the blacklist, so is this about terrorism and keeping America safe,
:14:06. > :14:11.wife or instance is Saudi Arabia not on the list? Most of the 9/11
:14:12. > :14:17.conspirators came from Saudi Arabia. If I can keep some logic in reply,
:14:18. > :14:21.just because recent attacks on American soil have been carried out
:14:22. > :14:24.by American citizens doesn't mean there is no international Islamist
:14:25. > :14:30.threat, as indeed we experience in many other countries. No one has
:14:31. > :14:36.told me who the guest in the studio is... It is Dan Jarvis and Mims
:14:37. > :14:40.Davies. Well, I would not accuse him of necessarily being part of a
:14:41. > :14:48.metropolitan liberal elite, but I do find it amusing when he says that
:14:49. > :14:51.the President's state visit, who has been invited, should be postponed in
:14:52. > :14:57.the most diplomatic way. I think that is a tall order. While people
:14:58. > :15:01.who are signing up to the petition think it sends a strong symbol or at
:15:02. > :15:06.least an indication to Donald Trump about strength of feeling here. But
:15:07. > :15:12.let's stick to the policy substance, let's talk about the vetting of
:15:13. > :15:15.refugees, extreme vetting. Nigel Barrage, former leader of Ukip, said
:15:16. > :15:22.that he would like to see that apply to the UK. What
:15:23. > :15:32.You will have to ask Nigel what he means. Would you back it? It depends
:15:33. > :15:37.what it means by extreme vetting, I think we need to be less led by the
:15:38. > :15:41.intelligence, immigration services, the people getting the intelligence
:15:42. > :15:45.from our friends and neighbours, as well. So certainly, look, we're
:15:46. > :15:51.living in a very dangerous era, where I believe the threat from
:15:52. > :15:56.Islamist terror is one of the biggest threats to our way of life.
:15:57. > :16:00.We are living in a high migration climate. The British Dutch system
:16:01. > :16:09.has been completely out of control. It seems to me perfectly reasonable
:16:10. > :16:12.to be thinking about new protections for law-abiding citizens. You talk
:16:13. > :16:16.about the threat from Islamic terrorists, but none of the recent
:16:17. > :16:19.attacks, over quite a number of years, have been Front National is
:16:20. > :16:24.from those countries. The policy and executive order was unclear, which
:16:25. > :16:28.meant thousands were left stranded, many American citizens all those who
:16:29. > :16:31.held dual nationality. There will be and have already been court cases
:16:32. > :16:35.being brought against Donald Trump as to whether it was legal in the
:16:36. > :16:39.first place. So there is no indication at this moment in time it
:16:40. > :16:47.will make America safer than it currently is, is there? Ice Inc I
:16:48. > :16:51.acknowledged earlier it's in the hallmark of an immature
:16:52. > :16:54.administration. -- I think I acknowledged earlier. A bit half
:16:55. > :16:57.baked in its implementation. If you look at some other countries where
:16:58. > :17:02.terror attacks have happened, they have been carried out from people
:17:03. > :17:07.coming from some of the countries listed reporting to be refugees.
:17:08. > :17:14.Particularly in Europe, in Germany and France, for instance.
:17:15. > :17:21.In the case of the extreme vetting as you talks about, it takes between
:17:22. > :17:25.18-24 months for refugees to be vetted under the US system of
:17:26. > :17:29.immigration. How much more extreme could it be?
:17:30. > :17:33.Well, I don't know what they spend two years doing, but it doesn't
:17:34. > :17:37.necessarily have to be a longer time frame. All I'm saying is if there
:17:38. > :17:41.are more checks that can be made, it seems perfectly reasonable to me
:17:42. > :17:47.that they should be made. In general the point I would like to make is
:17:48. > :17:52.there is no inalienable right for a citizen of one country to go on
:17:53. > :17:56.travel all live in another country. We have sovereign nation states and
:17:57. > :18:00.I'm very glad since EU referendum in Britain is on the road to becoming
:18:01. > :18:04.one of those countries again and will be able to set up own
:18:05. > :18:08.immigration controls. Do you see the dangers of hugging the president a
:18:09. > :18:12.bit too close in terms of Theresa May's visit? You are judged on the
:18:13. > :18:17.company you keep? I think the Prime Minister was
:18:18. > :18:20.rightly the first person to go and speak to president Tromp, in
:18:21. > :18:25.relation to the special relationship. Moving on to the
:18:26. > :18:30.visit, I've had people writing to me, the committee will look at that
:18:31. > :18:34.tomorrow and rightly because people are concerned. A ban for the ban I
:18:35. > :18:39.am really comfortable with and I think it leaves us in a difficult
:18:40. > :18:42.position long. I'd be rather working on that relationship, as we saw the
:18:43. > :18:47.Prime Minister doing. This is overshadowing that and for me that
:18:48. > :18:51.is a problem. Before we move on, the German Chancellor had an open door
:18:52. > :18:55.policy toward Syrian refugees. Do you think that policy worked on was
:18:56. > :19:12.the right one? I'm not sure it was the
:19:13. > :19:16.right or if it worked. If the intention of this policy, this
:19:17. > :19:18.announcement, is making the United States safer, I'm not sure it has
:19:19. > :19:20.achieved that goal. All the serious people who understand the complex
:19:21. > :19:23.nature of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism would say if you're trying
:19:24. > :19:25.to make the country safer by restricting access from people in
:19:26. > :19:26.the countries that have been identified, you have picked the
:19:27. > :19:28.wrong countries. There are some obvious omissions in that list which
:19:29. > :19:30.I think undermines it. Thank you. The question for today
:19:31. > :19:34.is all about Donald Trump's visit According to the Sunday Times,
:19:35. > :19:37.the White House is concerned about the possibility of an awkward
:19:38. > :19:40.moment when the president meets a) Because of the prince's
:19:41. > :19:46.view on GM foods? b) Because of his view
:19:47. > :19:48.on climate change? c) Because they disagree over
:19:49. > :19:50.modern architecture? d) Because Mr Trump has
:19:51. > :19:53.a phobia of royalty? At the end of the show Dan and Mims
:19:54. > :19:59.will give us the correct answer. The Prime Minister is in Cardiff
:20:00. > :20:03.this morning, to meet with the First Ministers of Scotland
:20:04. > :20:07.and Wales, and the first and only Theresa May says she wants
:20:08. > :20:10.to continue "constructive discussions" with the leaders
:20:11. > :20:12.of the devolved governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
:20:13. > :20:14.about Britain's future relationship However, she's made it clear
:20:15. > :20:18.she is in the driving seat, and the Scottish and Welsh
:20:19. > :20:20.governments say they have not seen any signs that Mrs May
:20:21. > :20:23.is taking their proposals seriously. Our chief political correspondent
:20:24. > :20:36.Vicki Young is in Cardiff. What have you found out from the
:20:37. > :20:39.meeting so far? It is interesting because Theresa May said the Nicola
:20:40. > :20:44.Sturgeon, when she became Prime Minister, she wanted the devolved
:20:45. > :20:48.nations to be fully involved in discussions in the run-up to Brexit.
:20:49. > :20:52.The clock is ticking now, with Article 50 due to be probably
:20:53. > :20:55.triggered by the end of March. Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland
:20:56. > :21:00.all want to have their say. Really now it's about what type of Brexit
:21:01. > :21:04.Theresa May wants. I think I'm making that speech when she said she
:21:05. > :21:09.thought the UK would leave the single market, that has really riled
:21:10. > :21:12.particularly the SNP. It is not what they want, they say it is not what
:21:13. > :21:16.their people want and they don't think the UK Government is in any
:21:17. > :21:20.way listening. They think they are coming to these meetings but it's
:21:21. > :21:23.not having any impact. Just before this meeting Nicola Sturgeon said
:21:24. > :21:29.time is running out for the Prime Minister to heed the voice of
:21:30. > :21:32.Scotland. So today there is a paper on the table about how Scotland
:21:33. > :21:37.feels it could stay in the single market, even if the UK were to
:21:38. > :21:41.leave. How that might work, no one is particularly sure. I think there
:21:42. > :21:46.are people in the Commons as well, we have heard from Labour MPs and
:21:47. > :21:49.the SNP, they feel the same, that Theresa May is dictating what they
:21:50. > :21:51.would call a hard Tory Brexit and they don't feel they are having any
:21:52. > :21:53.input. Thank you. Now let's stick with Brexit,
:21:54. > :21:56.as MPs will tomorrow start debating the Bill which will trigger
:21:57. > :21:58.Britain's departure from the EU. Most commentators are predicting
:21:59. > :22:01.that it will pass its early Commons stages without too much problem,
:22:02. > :22:04.but there are still plenty of other potential obstacles to come before
:22:05. > :22:07.we reach the Brexit finishing line. Mark Lobel has been
:22:08. > :22:09.to the Lee Valley Athletics Centre In the run-up to triggering Article
:22:10. > :22:31.50 and keeping our EU negotiations on track,
:22:32. > :22:33.what hurdles lie ahead The EU divorce bill will be debated
:22:34. > :22:37.in the Commons this week, with several Parliamentary
:22:38. > :22:41.hurdles to overcome. The first second reading
:22:42. > :22:45.will be a vote on the main principles of the bill,
:22:46. > :22:47.which will most likely be followed by a vote
:22:48. > :22:50.on the Government's preferred timetable of triggering Article 50
:22:51. > :22:54.by the end of March, which could also limit the time
:22:55. > :22:56.available for the next hurdle, amendments put forward by MPs deemed
:22:57. > :23:03.appropriate by the Deputy Speaker. This really interesting thing
:23:04. > :23:06.about these votes is that the vast majority of MPs are going to end up
:23:07. > :23:09.voting for something with which they passionately
:23:10. > :23:11.disagree, and with which they feel will have disastrous
:23:12. > :23:14.consequences for the country. That's why tensions are so high
:23:15. > :23:17.within the parties, and why you have this quite remarkable situation
:23:18. > :23:20.of Labour whips potentially not But I think when people
:23:21. > :23:25.talk about this in terms of whether Parliament
:23:26. > :23:28.is going to block it or not, What matters, however,
:23:29. > :23:34.is how long it takes to go through and whether it's amended
:23:35. > :23:36.on its way through. It's the amendments that
:23:37. > :23:38.I think are crucial here. The Liberal Democrats
:23:39. > :23:40.said they will only vote for the bill if a referendum
:23:41. > :23:43.on the deal is promised. I think one of the amendments
:23:44. > :23:46.that probably won't have much chance of passing,
:23:47. > :23:49.because I don't think there's much appetite within Parliament for it,
:23:50. > :23:52.is the idea of a second referendum. I think it's some of the other
:23:53. > :23:55.amendments, on things like reporting to Parliament or the role of EU
:23:56. > :23:58.nationals already living in this country, those strike me
:23:59. > :24:00.as potentially more difficult There's no control over
:24:01. > :24:06.their timetable and no amendment can be ruled out of order,
:24:07. > :24:09.so anything could happen, but large delays would be a risky
:24:10. > :24:17.move from an unelected chamber. Once Article 50 is triggered
:24:18. > :24:20.and those Parliamentary hurdles Leading them on behalf of EU heads
:24:21. > :24:30.of state and government will be the former French minister
:24:31. > :24:34.Michel Barnier, who wants a draft It will then be put to a vote
:24:35. > :24:41.in the European Parliament, where just over half its members
:24:42. > :24:43.will need to support The agreement also needs to clear
:24:44. > :24:48.the European Council, with support from 72% of the 27
:24:49. > :24:50.member states, representing at least 65% of the total
:24:51. > :24:57.population of those countries. Once that's all done,
:24:58. > :24:59.it's back to Westminster. Theresa May has said there will be
:25:00. > :25:02.a final vote in Parliament, Another hurdle could
:25:03. > :25:09.spring up along the way. If MPs thought the deal was running
:25:10. > :25:12.into trouble they could call a no-confidence vote
:25:13. > :25:13.in the Government. Ten hurdles over 110 metres,
:25:14. > :25:17.except some politicians argue Revoking Article 50, thus reversing
:25:18. > :25:26.the decision to leave. That's right, pretend we never shot
:25:27. > :25:30.the firing gun in the first place. It's not clear that
:25:31. > :25:43.that is something that Westminster can do on its own and it
:25:44. > :25:45.would require the agreement of the other EU nation states,
:25:46. > :25:49.but there's no doubt that some MPs To leave the EU, the UK has to clear
:25:50. > :25:53.at least ten hurdles. Now begins that journey,
:25:54. > :26:10.which is set to dominate So it is a marathon and not a
:26:11. > :26:14.sprint, to carry on that analogy. To Nicola Sturgeon things Theresa May
:26:15. > :26:18.isn't listening to her, taking seriously what the Scottish and
:26:19. > :26:22.Welsh governments are proposing an Brexit and she's right. This is a
:26:23. > :26:28.typical Nicola Sturgeon line of I'm not getting what I want on this. We
:26:29. > :26:33.have had a decision by the of the bright British people to leave the
:26:34. > :26:36.European Union. I think for UK plc, the jobs, security, for what we need
:26:37. > :26:41.to be doing as a government, we need to get on with this. I'm really
:26:42. > :26:46.pleased with the timetable. Theresa May is not listening, that's true,
:26:47. > :26:50.isn't it? The Prime Minister is there today and listening. And
:26:51. > :26:55.ignoring. Unless it is the argument she wants to hear she says not
:26:56. > :27:00.listening, potentially on both sides. What is the point of Theresa
:27:01. > :27:03.May think she will have this meeting -- these meetings because she would
:27:04. > :27:09.take into account the views of those devolved governments if she's not
:27:10. > :27:14.listening? I'm sure there is something that can be taken back
:27:15. > :27:17.this. I think peeling back the layers, Scotland is getting what
:27:18. > :27:22.they want will be difficult. Wales is a different issue. They voted to
:27:23. > :27:26.go and I think you are going to see... The Labour administration
:27:27. > :27:31.wants to stay in the single market. I think people are going to end up
:27:32. > :27:34.being realistic about, actually, do we want to be navel-gazing on this
:27:35. > :27:39.get on with things? There are companies, global companies, British
:27:40. > :27:43.companies making decisions based on what they need to keep people in
:27:44. > :27:49.jobs, which pays mortgages and keeps people in homes. You say you think
:27:50. > :27:51.there will be something that will be given to the devolved
:27:52. > :27:57.administrations, that these meetings are not a waste of time. Can you
:27:58. > :28:00.give me an example, however small, of where Theresa May has moved in
:28:01. > :28:04.the direction of what the Scottish and Welsh Government would like? I
:28:05. > :28:08.think if the Prime Minister thinks all we think it's not right to
:28:09. > :28:11.concede, because it's going to mess up the rest of the deal, then I
:28:12. > :28:16.don't think we should do that either. I don't think anyone should
:28:17. > :28:20.be held to ransom. She's not going to concede anything? Listen and find
:28:21. > :28:24.out what's practical, but ultimately if it's about a Saughton Nicola
:28:25. > :28:29.Sturgeon I don't think anyone in the UK... What about the idea of staying
:28:30. > :28:35.in the single market? To be fair, that is not Labour's policy either.
:28:36. > :28:41.If you wearing charge Nicola Sturgeon wouldn't get that either?
:28:42. > :28:45.It's pin maker that won't happen. Labour to secure the best policy
:28:46. > :28:50.deal. This has been a challenging time for us as a party. Many of us
:28:51. > :28:53.campaigned to stay within the European Union but we have decided,
:28:54. > :29:00.rightly in my view, given this is such a big strategical political
:29:01. > :29:04.decision for the country, its right to come together on a cohesive view.
:29:05. > :29:12.Is it right for Jeremy Corbyn to party manage MPs? Wouldn't it have
:29:13. > :29:16.been better to have a free vote on the Labour side? I don't think it
:29:17. > :29:20.would have been better to have a free vote. This is such an important
:29:21. > :29:25.issue for the future of our country and the Labour Party to say we were
:29:26. > :29:28.not able to bring people together... That you can't, it's clear you
:29:29. > :29:32.can't. There are about 100 Labour MPs and some in the Shadow Cabinet
:29:33. > :29:38.and some of them are supposed to be party whips you impose party
:29:39. > :29:42.discipline. It is not a consensus at all. We will see if it is a
:29:43. > :29:46.consensus or not, in terms of the number of people who vote with us or
:29:47. > :29:52.not. You think it will be less? I think there are a number of good
:29:53. > :29:56.colleagues who have difficult decisions to make. From the point of
:29:57. > :29:59.view of our party, given this is such a big issue for the country, I
:30:00. > :30:02.don't think it would have been the right thing to have a free vote. I
:30:03. > :30:06.think it's the right thing for Jeremy to say this is our view and
:30:07. > :30:09.he expects his members of Parliament, particularly those on
:30:10. > :30:15.the front bench, to support that view. If you're trying to enforce,
:30:16. > :30:22.as you say, a party line, to have a formed view, was it the right
:30:23. > :30:25.strategy for the deputy leader Tom Watson to say Shadow Cabinet members
:30:26. > :30:28.to resign can get their jobs back in a couple of months? Just because you
:30:29. > :30:31.stand down from the front bench over a particular issue, even if it is an
:30:32. > :30:35.important one might Brexit, doesn't mean you couldn't go back and serve
:30:36. > :30:40.at some point. If you're trying to persuade people to come on-board and
:30:41. > :30:43.present a united within Labour rather than a divided one, surely
:30:44. > :30:47.the sanctions have to be at least relatively strong?
:30:48. > :30:52.I'm not sure that would be helpful in the current climate where people
:30:53. > :30:55.have to make difficult judgment about whether to represent the views
:30:56. > :31:00.of their constituents or what they believe to be the right thing to do,
:31:01. > :31:08.we all wrestle with those decisions. Brexit is the defining issue of our
:31:09. > :31:12.generation... If you are a Labour MP and you had a strong Ukip vote and a
:31:13. > :31:19.strong Remain boat, it is a difficult position for anyone. What
:31:20. > :31:23.the Labour Party is trying to do is laudable. It is the Liberal Democrat
:31:24. > :31:32.position, hardly turning up at the debates, chuntering on the sidelines
:31:33. > :31:36.about wanting to change things, wanting to make the best of it... It
:31:37. > :31:41.is a unified message in terms of what they are saying? Many
:31:42. > :31:45.colleagues in all parties will find this difficult. I find it very easy
:31:46. > :31:48.but for other colleagues this is a difficult balance. There are
:31:49. > :31:52.by-elections as a result. Is this going to be the case in every
:31:53. > :31:55.decision that the Labour Party have to make? You say this is the
:31:56. > :31:59.defining issue, there are many coming down the line, is this how
:32:00. > :32:11.the Labour Party will act with 100 or so MPs defied the whip? It is for
:32:12. > :32:14.the leader to decide but it is right in this case on this issue that we
:32:15. > :32:16.reach a formed view and colleagues are strongly encouraged to support
:32:17. > :32:19.it, I think that is the right decision. Let's see what the next
:32:20. > :32:22.few days brings. It is difficult for some colleagues but we have to come
:32:23. > :32:25.together with a view on how to proceed. One of the amendments
:32:26. > :32:28.Labour will put forward is guaranteeing the right of EU
:32:29. > :32:32.nationals already living here. There has been an ongoing row about
:32:33. > :32:36.whether they are being used as bargaining chips. Did you think you
:32:37. > :32:40.could support that amendment? For me it is one of the issues as a
:32:41. > :32:44.constituency MP that I see problems with this, I have people that live
:32:45. > :32:51.and work abroad, for example in my area in the marine industry a lot to
:32:52. > :32:56.work... Were due back the amendment? I don't think we need an amendment,
:32:57. > :33:00.I think it needs to be part of the negotiating process. We are not
:33:01. > :33:06.going to forget about this, it is an important issue, but at the moment
:33:07. > :33:09.it is one of a number of matters... Do you think it should still be part
:33:10. > :33:13.of negotiations rather than guaranteed ahead of negotiations?
:33:14. > :33:19.There is no reason why it cannot be both of those things, negotiation
:33:20. > :33:22.and as part of an amendment. The purpose of putting it forward is to
:33:23. > :33:27.provide the opportunities for MPs to express their concerns about it and
:33:28. > :33:33.I think there was a benefit in doing that. Are there any other amendments
:33:34. > :33:37.of substance? We will see, but I think it is important they are seen
:33:38. > :33:41.in a constructive way. There is abuse among some colleagues on the
:33:42. > :33:44.other side of the house that these amendments slow down the triggering
:33:45. > :33:46.of article 50, I don't see it that way, I think it is about adding
:33:47. > :33:49.value to the process. Now, Unite is the biggest
:33:50. > :33:52.union in the country, with 1.4 million members,
:33:53. > :33:56.and we often end up talking about it on this programme because,
:33:57. > :33:58.as well as being a powerful voice for its members,
:33:59. > :34:01.it's also given millions to Labour and has an influential role
:34:02. > :34:03.in the running of the party. The current general secretary
:34:04. > :34:06.is Len McCluskey, he's been in the job since 2011 and has been
:34:07. > :34:09.a key supporter of Jeremy Corbyn. Well he's up for re-election, but
:34:10. > :34:12.he's not going to go unchallenged. Here's one of those hoping to win,
:34:13. > :34:14.Unite regional secretary for the West Midlands Gerard Coyne,
:34:15. > :34:20.launching his campaign. I think the time is right for some
:34:21. > :34:23.change, and I think the time It's not about the leadership
:34:24. > :34:30.that we've had thus far, although I do think that Unite has
:34:31. > :34:33.become too much of a political commentator, and not actually
:34:34. > :34:36.focusing on the concerns, the direct concerns
:34:37. > :34:41.of our membership. Because I do know that for you,
:34:42. > :34:44.actually, the difficulties you face in the world of work have got more
:34:45. > :34:56.and more intense. You said you want to get away from
:34:57. > :35:01.the political game playing in Westminster, what did you mean by
:35:02. > :35:04.that? I think it is very clear, I want to focus on the job that is
:35:05. > :35:08.critical for our members in the Times ahead, making sure they are
:35:09. > :35:14.protected, that they are supported in the workplace and their terms and
:35:15. > :35:18.conditions are improved, rather than focusing on Westminster politics.
:35:19. > :35:22.But you are happy to campaign on broader political issues, for
:35:23. > :35:25.example before Theresa May's Lancaster house speech you called
:35:26. > :35:29.for her to take a firm stance on freedom of movement, why is that
:35:30. > :35:32.important for your members? The next two years will be arguably the most
:35:33. > :35:36.difficult for our members since the Second World War, the implication of
:35:37. > :35:42.Brexit, we have to face up to it now and prepare our membership for those
:35:43. > :35:46.challenges that will be very in terms of adjusting to the world post
:35:47. > :35:51.Brexit. What does that mean in terms of freedom of movement, what would
:35:52. > :35:55.you like to see? We have to make sure we are investing in skills in
:35:56. > :35:59.the UK because employers for a long time have taken skills down off the
:36:00. > :36:03.shelf when they have faced deficit in their workforce rather than
:36:04. > :36:07.investing in the long-term unemployed or people in their
:36:08. > :36:11.existing workforce. There is an media to focus on critical issues,
:36:12. > :36:13.including investment as well. But you have not answered the question
:36:14. > :36:39.about freedom of movement do you support the target
:36:40. > :36:41.set by Theresa May, by the Government, in bringing net
:36:42. > :36:44.migration down to tens of thousands? The reality is we have to face up to
:36:45. > :36:46.what the British public voted for in the referendum and they have said
:36:47. > :36:49.clearly that migration is an issue. If that means as a result of the
:36:50. > :36:52.process we are going through that we will no longer be in the single
:36:53. > :36:55.market, then we have to p repare for your view on transport strikes?
:36:56. > :36:57.There have been a number of strikes across industries but let's take the
:36:58. > :36:59.example of the strikes on the southern rail network, would you
:37:00. > :37:02.condemn or support them? I am a trade union leader, I support those
:37:03. > :37:05.strikes, I believe in the right of people to take industrial action, it
:37:06. > :37:07.is a fundamental right and I would support them. And you would continue
:37:08. > :37:15.to do so even if, as the management claims, they have answered some of
:37:16. > :37:18.the concerns raised by the trade unions what about your view on
:37:19. > :37:20.transport strikes? There have been a number of strikes across industries
:37:21. > :37:22.but let's take the example of the strikes on the southern rail
:37:23. > :37:25.network, would you condemn or support them? I am a trade union
:37:26. > :37:27.leader, I support those strikes, I believe in the right of people to
:37:28. > :37:29.take industrial action, it is a fundamental right and I would
:37:30. > :37:32.support them. And you would continue to do so even if, as the management
:37:33. > :37:35.claims, they have answered some of the concerns raised by the trade
:37:36. > :37:37.unions? It is interesting in that example, the management has been
:37:38. > :37:39.described as. In my view, workers don't take strike think long and
:37:40. > :37:42.hard about because it means losing pay. The reality of trying to solve
:37:43. > :37:45.a dispute, unfortunately strike action really is a last resort, so
:37:46. > :37:47.to be in this, it is a decision they have to think long and hard about
:37:48. > :37:49.because it means losing pay. The reality of trying to solve the
:37:50. > :37:52.dispute, unfortunately strike action really is the last resort, so to be
:37:53. > :37:55.in proposed nuclear power plant in Cumbria in terms of the action they
:37:56. > :37:56.have taken, it is clear the responsibility rests with the
:37:57. > :37:59.management. What about nuclear power, what did you think when you
:38:00. > :38:10.saw Jeremy Corbyn last week unable to give support to a proposed
:38:11. > :38:15.nuclear power plant in Cumbria. What did you think about Jeremy Corbyn's
:38:16. > :38:20.response, when he was unable to give his backing? I'm clear, I I
:38:21. > :38:22.absolutely support our membership in the energy sector, we need a
:38:23. > :38:24.balanced energy respond including nuclear. I think some of the issues
:38:25. > :38:27.we have been talking about around Hinkley Point, one of the critical
:38:28. > :38:28.issues there is the skills infrastructure to support the
:38:29. > :38:31.development. What did you think about Jeremy Corbyn's response, when
:38:32. > :38:33.he was unable to give his backing? I'm clear, the vision... So his
:38:34. > :38:36.position concerns you? What concerns me feel the work they are members
:38:37. > :38:39.need to feel the work they are doing is that is the most important thing
:38:40. > :38:41.for me, not the position of the leader of the Labour Party. Except
:38:42. > :38:45.there is a close connection between the union and the Labour Party. In
:38:46. > :38:48.this case, why is it that your campaign is being seen as a proxy
:38:49. > :38:54.war between the centrist Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn's side. I
:38:55. > :38:56.don't that is the most important thing for me, not the position of
:38:57. > :38:59.the leader of the Labour Party. Except there is a close connection
:39:00. > :39:02.between the union and the Labour Party. In this case, why is it that
:39:03. > :39:04.your campaign is being seen as a proxy war between the centrist
:39:05. > :39:15.Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn's side. I don't believe sure that we
:39:16. > :39:18.are fit for the. But why do you think it is being seen that way? You
:39:19. > :39:20.would probably be better asking that question to Len McCluskey in terms
:39:21. > :39:23.of the political arena that Unite has operated. I want to move away
:39:24. > :39:26.from that, I am more West Midlands than Westminster and I want our
:39:27. > :39:29.members to get the service they deserve and make sure that we are
:39:30. > :39:32.fit for the 21st you see it as a proxy war between two side in the
:39:33. > :39:35.Labour Party? I don't, I see it as a do you see it as a proxy war between
:39:36. > :39:38.two side in the Labour Party? I don't, I see it as the union at a
:39:39. > :39:41.difficult time. Why is Momentum, the grass roots group that has grown up
:39:42. > :39:43.supporting Jeremy Corbyn, putting so much effort into supporting Len
:39:44. > :39:45.McCluskey? I don't know, you would have to ask them, but none of the
:39:46. > :39:54.should underestimate the importance of the job of leading a trade union
:39:55. > :39:57.like Unite. It is a tough time for Labour and people need to make a
:39:58. > :40:03.choice about who they think is the best person to lead Unite in the
:40:04. > :40:06.future. I think it is an important relationship between the Labour
:40:07. > :40:11.Party and the trade union movement, I am proud of that link, I think it
:40:12. > :40:15.has served us well over many years. There have been a few ups and downs
:40:16. > :40:21.over the years but I think the trade union movement in provide an
:40:22. > :40:26.incredibly important voice, and it might not be as close as it has been
:40:27. > :40:28.but it is an important relationships are members of Unite should be
:40:29. > :40:33.mindful of that in any decision they make. There is a close relationship,
:40:34. > :40:38.you cannot get away from Westminster in that sense, the Labour Party,
:40:39. > :40:44.outlined by Dan Jarvis, has a close relationship with Unite. I don't
:40:45. > :40:47.doubt for one minute that working people and Unite members do better
:40:48. > :40:53.under a Labour Government, but this is about the leadership. I am not a
:40:54. > :40:56.puppet Master for the leader of the Labour Party, I want to get on with
:40:57. > :41:00.the priority of focusing on our members in what will be a turbulent
:41:01. > :41:06.time ahead. And the way to do that is by some sort of relationship and
:41:07. > :41:11.support in the Labour Party. Unite. We affiliated to the Labour Party if
:41:12. > :41:12.you win the election, you would still have delegates,
:41:13. > :41:18.representatives of the National Executive Committee? Of course. So
:41:19. > :41:23.the links are still there, rightly or wrongly, you cannot get away from
:41:24. > :41:27.that. You cannot get away from it but the focus, what I want to do as
:41:28. > :41:32.leader of the biggest trade union in Britain, is making sure every day
:41:33. > :41:35.that one I focus on that it is not about parliamentary politics, it is
:41:36. > :41:40.about what is better for my members and better for working people. In
:41:41. > :41:42.the end, you are not going to win, looking at the figures, 15% of
:41:43. > :41:57.members voted last time, total, and two
:41:58. > :41:59.thirds of those voted for Len McCluskey. One in ten voted for Len
:42:00. > :42:02.McCluskey, so I do believe I can win. The reality is this is wide
:42:03. > :42:05.open as an election, there is a clear message about the focus I will
:42:06. > :42:08.bring to the job and the difference I will provide so yes, I do believe
:42:09. > :42:11.I can win. How would you get on with Jeremy Corbyn? He is the leader of
:42:12. > :42:15.the Labour Party, simple as that. But how would you build relations
:42:16. > :42:19.with Jeremy Corbyn? My job is not to be focused on the leader of the
:42:20. > :42:23.Labour Party, that is exactly why I am standing. My job is to be focused
:42:24. > :42:28.on the 4 million members that pay my wages. Gerard Coyne, good luck.
:42:29. > :42:31.Well, it's set to be a busy week here in Westminster.
:42:32. > :42:34.Let's take a look at what's coming up in the next few days.
:42:35. > :42:36.Tomorrow, as we've been hearing, MPs begin two days of debate
:42:37. > :42:39.on the European Union Notification of Withdrawal Bill, which will allow
:42:40. > :42:42.the Prime Minister to trigger Article 50 and begin the process
:42:43. > :42:45.The debates could last late into the night,
:42:46. > :42:47.and you can expect them to be heated.
:42:48. > :42:49.Sticking with Brexit, on Wednesday Ivan Rogers
:42:50. > :42:55.You may remember he resigned as the UK's man in Brussels
:42:56. > :42:58.earlier this month and took a swipe at the Government as he went.
:42:59. > :43:04.On Thursday the Bank of England will publish
:43:05. > :43:06.its quarterly inflation report, setting out predictions
:43:07. > :43:12.The bank's governor Mark Carney has already indicated that he's
:43:13. > :43:14.likely to revise up this year's growth forecast.
:43:15. > :43:17.On Friday EU leaders meet in Malta to discuss life after Brexit,
:43:18. > :43:21.it's not clear yet if Theresa May will be going too.
:43:22. > :43:24.And private members' bills being considered by MPs will include
:43:25. > :43:27.Dan Jarvis's attempt to set a new target for the reduction
:43:28. > :43:35.We're joined now by two journalists who like nothing more than a late
:43:36. > :43:38.night Commons sitting and a row about a foreign visit -
:43:39. > :43:47.it's Jason Groves of the Daily Mail, and Holly Watt of the Guardian.
:43:48. > :43:53.Jason, first of all, is Donald Trump's state visit going to go
:43:54. > :43:58.ahead. Yes, I think that is pretty clear. Number Ten have said today it
:43:59. > :44:03.will be a gesture to populism to scrap it. Of course critics think
:44:04. > :44:07.the visit in the first place was a gesture to a populist, but they are
:44:08. > :44:11.pretty clear that this visit is important and that it rather
:44:12. > :44:16.transcends the current row. When it does go ahead I think we should be
:44:17. > :44:20.set for some pretty extraordinary protests, the like of which we
:44:21. > :44:26.really haven't seen for very many years. There is lots to talk about
:44:27. > :44:30.whether this is embarrassing for the Queen, I'm not convinced by that, I
:44:31. > :44:36.think she has put up with some pretty difficult people in the past,
:44:37. > :44:42.Emperor Hirohito, I think she and Philip can cope. She is pretty
:44:43. > :44:45.resilient! Holly, how does Downing Street get a grip on this story in
:44:46. > :44:50.terms of the petition, for example, which will continue no doubt to go
:44:51. > :44:55.up and up? It has been a complicated bidets, a week used to be a long
:44:56. > :44:59.time in politics, now it is 48 hours, faced with new realities all
:45:00. > :45:04.over the place. Theresa May had her trip to Washington, DC which seemed
:45:05. > :45:12.to go off quite smoothly apart from some strange handholding, then they
:45:13. > :45:15.went to Turkey and by the time they had arrived it was all strange and
:45:16. > :45:18.-- all change and they were scrambling to catch up. I see the
:45:19. > :45:21.two of you are not holding hands, that is something! You are clearly
:45:22. > :45:25.on level ground! Let's look at Brexit and the week ahead, we just
:45:26. > :45:29.looked at some of the hurdles in terms of legislation and the pathway
:45:30. > :45:34.through Parliament, how do you see it?
:45:35. > :45:40.There will be lots of debates and votes in parliament tomorrow about
:45:41. > :45:44.how long they have to debate it, if there should be a White Paper and
:45:45. > :45:48.when they report back. I think on Wednesday evening the vast majority
:45:49. > :45:52.will vote for Article 50, because I think to do so would be so
:45:53. > :45:57.anti-democratic that most of them can't stomach doing it. There will
:45:58. > :46:01.be a rebellion, certainly by the SNP, they won't vote for it, the Lib
:46:02. > :46:06.Dems won't vote for and I think you'll see 50 or 60 Labour MPs not
:46:07. > :46:10.vote for it, which is a problem for the Labour Party. But I think the
:46:11. > :46:14.legislation itself will get through. Looking at the Labour Party, does it
:46:15. > :46:23.matter there is this divide in the Labour ranks, Holly? People have
:46:24. > :46:27.resigned already and six or seven who are not clear if they will vote
:46:28. > :46:34.along with Jeremy Corbyn's three line whip. Then you have Tom Watson
:46:35. > :46:37.saying quietly that in the old days if you resigned from the Shadow
:46:38. > :46:41.Cabinet, that was a very, very long time in the wilderness. Now it's
:46:42. > :46:46.more like a rugby sin bin ten minutes on the sidelines thinking
:46:47. > :46:52.about what you've done. Not so quiet now, everyone seems to know about
:46:53. > :46:57.it. Back in the shadow could have -- cabinet in a couple of months. In
:46:58. > :47:00.the next few days if Article 50 is triggered, what happens in the
:47:01. > :47:05.Lords? I think it will take a bit longer to get it through the Lords.
:47:06. > :47:09.Something like 80% of peers are opposed to Brexit. I think leaders
:47:10. > :47:18.of the main groups have been pretty clear that... Turkeys voting for
:47:19. > :47:21.Christmas if they voted against. Unelected politicians overturning
:47:22. > :47:26.the democratic will as expressed in the referendum is not really a
:47:27. > :47:30.runner. I suspect it will get through there as well but it will
:47:31. > :47:32.take a lot longer, and there will be more debates to come. Thank you
:47:33. > :47:33.both. Now, we mentioned Dan's
:47:34. > :47:35.private members bill coming to the Commons this week,
:47:36. > :47:46.it's seeking to enshrine in law Does putting a pledge into law
:47:47. > :47:52.achieve anything? I hope that it would, clearly. In 2010 this was
:47:53. > :47:54.agreed on a cross-party basis. The then leader of the Conservative
:47:55. > :47:58.Party, David Cameron, thought it would be a good thing to do. Given
:47:59. > :48:01.that we have 4 million children currently growing up in poverty and
:48:02. > :48:06.the Institute for Fiscal Studies say that number will increase by 50%,
:48:07. > :48:10.actually it would be a very powerful show of unity if across the House of
:48:11. > :48:13.Commons we could agree to work together to say we need to reduce
:48:14. > :48:18.those numbers, we will do something about it. I think having a target
:48:19. > :48:23.focuses the mind of the decision-makers in government. Does
:48:24. > :48:27.it? Labour drops the figure to drop child poverty by specific date in
:48:28. > :48:31.its manifesto. In the end it doesn't bring you any closer to the goal you
:48:32. > :48:36.have set out by just saying there is a target? I don't agree with that.
:48:37. > :48:41.Government sets lots of targets. The immigration target they continually
:48:42. > :48:45.failed to meet? Across governments there are lots of specific targets.
:48:46. > :48:48.I think in life, if you want to achieve something, it's useful to
:48:49. > :48:52.set a target so you can measure your progress against it. If you are not
:48:53. > :48:56.prepared to set a target, I'm afraid what I conclude from that if you are
:48:57. > :49:00.not seriously committed to reduce the number of children growing up in
:49:01. > :49:04.poverty. Is another point, if you don't say, you are not making a
:49:05. > :49:10.priority, if you don't pledge it, you're not putting your money where
:49:11. > :49:14.your mouth is. The ISS says there will be a 50% increase by 2020. That
:49:15. > :49:19.is a massive failure by the government. This government and
:49:20. > :49:23.under David Cameron from 2010 the commitment was to tackle the
:49:24. > :49:29.problems causing the poverty issue. I have a 10%, by one measure, in my
:49:30. > :49:33.constituency and I can think of particular states and areas where
:49:34. > :49:36.people's life chances are clearly not the life chances we would hope
:49:37. > :49:42.for them to be having. So you have failed. By that measure, the old
:49:43. > :49:45.target based on the percentage of households with below average
:49:46. > :49:51.income, you are going to have seen an increase of 50%, according to the
:49:52. > :49:54.Institute for Fiscal Studies. This depends on the measurement you are
:49:55. > :50:00.looking at. Going back to life chances are making a difference, I
:50:01. > :50:05.agree with Dan. Let's set a target, but we have been making changes.
:50:06. > :50:08.Universal credit is coming in, people premium, the national living
:50:09. > :50:13.wage, we are taking more people out of tax than ever. The trainee and
:50:14. > :50:18.apprenticeships we are offering and 2 million more people in jobs, we
:50:19. > :50:23.need to set aspirations. Is that enough? The previous Labour
:50:24. > :50:28.government lifted 1 million children out of poverty. Theresa May said she
:50:29. > :50:32.would fight injustices, I think it is an injustice so many children are
:50:33. > :50:33.growing up in poverty in this Friday we have an opportunity to do
:50:34. > :50:37.something about it and I hope we do. Now, it may shock you to learn
:50:38. > :50:41.that there are some BBC programmes even better known than the Daily
:50:42. > :50:42.Politics. And if you were listening
:50:43. > :50:46.to the radio yesterday, you might have heard one of them,
:50:47. > :50:48.as Desert Island Discs marked its 75th anniversary
:50:49. > :50:50.with an interview with David The format has hardly
:50:51. > :50:53.changed since 1942 - a bit like this programme,
:50:54. > :50:56.then - and over the decades some of the biggest names in politics
:50:57. > :50:59.have been 'cast away', and perhaps revealed more
:51:00. > :51:00.than they bargained for. We've chosen some of the highlights,
:51:01. > :51:07.let's have a listen. There is some flash photography in
:51:08. > :51:10.this film. Mrs Thatcher, how
:51:11. > :51:13.important to you is music? It's what I go to when I want
:51:14. > :51:18.to take refuge in something completely different,
:51:19. > :51:22.when I really want to get away from worries and go from the very
:51:23. > :51:25.logical life that I've lived and I've always been trained
:51:26. > :51:28.to live, really to a different I couldn't identify
:51:29. > :51:34.with the Conservatives, who I'd fought all my life,
:51:35. > :51:37.but I couldn't really increasingly identify with the Labour Party,
:51:38. > :51:41.and I think one of the early seeds of the SDP, one which has been very
:51:42. > :51:46.little noticed in the press, was the strong support that those
:51:47. > :51:49.of us who later formed the SDP had The people who have sacrificed
:51:50. > :51:55.their view in order to get to the top, have very often
:51:56. > :51:58.really left no footprints I really think I have chosen quite
:51:59. > :52:04.consciously to give people confidence in themselves and not
:52:05. > :52:08.confidence in me. You were calling for the immediate
:52:09. > :52:11.reduction in numbers of immigrants coming into Britain
:52:12. > :52:15.and for the repatriation of those, That was official policy of
:52:16. > :52:21.the Conservative Party at the time. Then why were you sacked
:52:22. > :52:23.by Ted Heath for saying it? Because he didn't like the fact
:52:24. > :52:26.that it had been heard. It almost brings tears to my eyes,
:52:27. > :52:34.with the pride I have in doing that job, and the faith that people have
:52:35. > :52:36.in me, and therefore I don't want stardom,
:52:37. > :52:41.I just want to be known as a jolly good Speaker,
:52:42. > :52:43.and a nice girl, and somebody who has been very fair
:52:44. > :52:46.and just all round. The true emotional attachment
:52:47. > :52:51.to the Labour Party is not to cling onto something long past its sell-by
:52:52. > :52:54.date, it is actually to say, "Well, what is this party
:52:55. > :52:56.about, what do we feel? Well, why did I join
:52:57. > :53:00.the Labour Party? I thought, when I was preparing this
:53:01. > :53:04.list, that I'd actually quite like something to perhaps jig up
:53:05. > :53:08.and down to or dance to a bit on this desert island,
:53:09. > :53:12.and my husband Philip and I are sort of the Abba generation,
:53:13. > :53:14.so it is a piece of Abba, We're joined now by the Telegraph's
:53:15. > :53:29.radio critic, Gillian Reynolds. Welcome to the daily politics. Why
:53:30. > :53:34.do politicians love doing it so much? It gives them that moment
:53:35. > :53:38.where they can turn into real people. Does it turn them into real
:53:39. > :53:42.people? They try very hard. It depends if they have chosen their
:53:43. > :53:51.own things or an adviser has chosen for them. Do you think, for
:53:52. > :53:57.instance, Mrs Thatcher will really chose those songs? She says in the
:53:58. > :54:05.great book about Desert Island discs, I couldn't do with comedy --
:54:06. > :54:09.do without comedy... That's the thing, when you've listened to all
:54:10. > :54:14.these politicians, you give those examples, is it not always credible
:54:15. > :54:22.that these people could have picked those particular tracks? I love to
:54:23. > :54:28.think of David Cameron dancing tomorrow see and the Smiths. That's
:54:29. > :54:32.the thing, is it done by committee? There were rumours certain prime
:54:33. > :54:35.ministers or leaders of parties about the committee they're saying
:54:36. > :54:41.we have to have an even spread of classical, pop, is that...? The
:54:42. > :54:46.little giveaways are delicious. When Tony Blair chose his favourite
:54:47. > :54:56.object it was a guitar lent to him and one of his favourite records was
:54:57. > :55:00.Johnson's singing crossroad blues. I love to think of that, the devil 's
:55:01. > :55:07.music, he was singing about being buried at the crossroads. It's a
:55:08. > :55:12.thrilling concept. Politicians love it, because for that brief moment
:55:13. > :55:18.they are in the same league as David Attenborough, and great lords, great
:55:19. > :55:22.thinkers of our time. I think it is a wonderful piece of entertainment.
:55:23. > :55:28.No wonder it survived. I was going to say, that is why it has endured.
:55:29. > :55:33.Simple, adaptable, fits all sizes, what more can I say? Would you be
:55:34. > :55:38.sitting never discs if you were going on Desert Islands, thinking
:55:39. > :55:43.about the tracks that work best for you? I think it is a national
:55:44. > :55:47.treasure, if I were I wouldn't approach it in that way I think I
:55:48. > :55:50.would just make a short list of those musical moments that bring
:55:51. > :55:55.back memories. Do you believe him, do you think that's what would
:55:56. > :56:01.happen? I think he'd be got at. Would you be got at? Not for a
:56:02. > :56:07.moment, a true pop girl and the theme of Black beauty. I could do it
:56:08. > :56:14.in about ten minutes. What is your one luxury? My children! You can't
:56:15. > :56:21.have people. I'm sorry, it's basic, moisturiser. A lot of people, Joan
:56:22. > :56:28.Collins took moisturiser. I love Joan Collins. I don't think you are
:56:29. > :56:34.as old as Joan Collins! Dan Jarvis, what would your one book be? Would
:56:35. > :56:37.you be like Enoch Powell and choose the old Testament in Hebrew and
:56:38. > :56:43.Greek? You really do know this off by heart! I didn't realise you
:56:44. > :56:47.couldn't take a person. Perhaps a bit hard to take your kids, I
:56:48. > :56:51.thought maybe I should take Donald Trump, because sometimes you have to
:56:52. > :56:55.take one for the team! LAUGHTER Spend the rest of your life with
:56:56. > :56:59.Donald Trump. I have a couple of records. The thing that brings back
:57:00. > :57:08.so many memories for me is sitting with my kids, listening to In The
:57:09. > :57:11.Night Garden. A wonderful, emotive soundtrack. I would definitely take
:57:12. > :57:16.that. That's the one thing my husband used to turn up as soon as
:57:17. > :57:19.my children went to sleep. Is it important politicians show they have
:57:20. > :57:24.a hinterland outside of politics when they do this? I think it's nice
:57:25. > :57:30.for people to see another side, as well as the angry barking must. Not
:57:31. > :57:35.that we've had any of that today, you've been wonderful! More 's the
:57:36. > :57:41.pity. I know you worked very hard for that. A favourite? My favourite?
:57:42. > :57:47.Well, I don't really have a favourite, but I do think if I was
:57:48. > :57:52.singing along on a log and ended up on a desert island, whose record is
:57:53. > :57:56.I bear listening to? Mo Mowlam's were pretty good. They are not in
:57:57. > :58:07.the book but she ended up with the Jackson five and Blame It On The
:58:08. > :58:11.Boogie. I Didn't Listen Yesterday Because I Was At Church Yesterday
:58:12. > :58:17.Praying For The Future Of The World. I Will Catch The Repeat On Friday.
:58:18. > :58:19.Thank you for coming on and sharing that even if they went your personal
:58:20. > :58:21.records. There's just time before we go
:58:22. > :58:24.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question is why is Donald Trump
:58:25. > :58:27.reported to be worrying about meeting Prince Charles
:58:28. > :58:29.during his state visit? c) His views on architecture,
:58:30. > :58:34.or d) Because Mr Trump
:58:35. > :58:36.has a fear of princes? So, Dan and Mims, what's
:58:37. > :58:44.the correct answer? Frankly, I think all of them could
:58:45. > :58:48.be. They could but I need one. I'm thinking climate change. Climate
:58:49. > :58:51.change, what about you? Hazard climate change. That is correct.
:58:52. > :58:53.That's all for today, thanks to our guests.
:58:54. > :58:56.The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:57. > :58:58.I'll be here at noon tomorrow, with all the big political
:58:59. > :59:06.To be in the Lords, you have to be punctual...
:59:07. > :59:09.Sometimes you really do literally have to slam the door