:00:37. > :00:38.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:42.Pay upfront or you won't be treated - the NHS in England is told to get
:00:43. > :00:53.But how much money will it raise for the hard-up health service?
:00:54. > :00:54.Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, will meet
:00:55. > :01:01.Theresa May for the first time since she became Prime Minister.
:01:02. > :01:05.Shut the trip be about trade or tackling him on illegal settlements?
:01:06. > :01:07.They were the cuckoos in Labour's nest during
:01:08. > :01:10.the referendum campaign - but did Labour Leave overstep
:01:11. > :01:12.the mark by making a donation to their political foes in Ukip?
:01:13. > :01:15.And diplomacy is dead as politicians show us how to make enemies
:01:16. > :01:24.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:25. > :01:27.of the programme today, that rare breed -
:01:28. > :01:31.And the Conservative MP, Remainer and star
:01:32. > :01:43.The issue of patients from overseas using the NHS has been
:01:44. > :01:46.in the headlines over the last couple of weeks, and now
:01:47. > :01:48.the Government wants hospitals in England to get tough.
:01:49. > :01:50.From April this year, foreign patients could be refused
:01:51. > :01:52.non-emergency operations unless they pay up front.
:01:53. > :01:58.At the moment patients who live outside the European Economic Area
:01:59. > :02:01.are usually invoiced after the treatment takes place.
:02:02. > :02:06.Patients from inside the EEA have their details forwarded
:02:07. > :02:09.to the Department of Health so the costs can be recouped
:02:10. > :02:13.The total cost of people who use the NHS but aren't UK residents
:02:14. > :02:25.This can include holiday-makers who get injured or some who get sick
:02:26. > :02:29.while temporarily employed in the UK.
:02:30. > :02:31.Last year the NHS charged overseas patients ?289 million,
:02:32. > :02:35.and Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says he hopes to recoup up to half
:02:36. > :02:37.a billion pounds a year by the middle of this parliament
:02:38. > :02:46.Some, however, have argued the money is small beer when the whole NHS
:02:47. > :02:50.budget in England last year was over ?116 billion.
:02:51. > :02:53.What's more, the BMA has warned that the new scheme could lead
:02:54. > :02:58.to "chaos and confusion", and argues that there is no detail
:02:59. > :03:02.about how the upfront charging will be introduced.
:03:03. > :03:04.Last week the BBC showed a documentary called Hospital
:03:05. > :03:08.which highlighted the problem of charging for overseas visitors.
:03:09. > :03:12.In this clip a hospital administrator, Terry,
:03:13. > :03:16.has to invoice a Filipino patient who's had open heart surgery.
:03:17. > :03:18.The bill runs into tens of thousands of pounds,
:03:19. > :03:23.and he has to speak to the patient's sister about payment.
:03:24. > :03:27.This is an invoice, OK, which, as you know, we have to present.
:03:28. > :03:32.OK, now, clearly Sonia's been in ITU for a while now.
:03:33. > :03:40.So I need to ask you, are you able to make
:03:41. > :03:43.a small payment, a deposit, today, do you think?
:03:44. > :03:57.At the moment, my son is unemployed as well.
:03:58. > :04:05.I'm not going to pressure you for that.
:04:06. > :04:10.What I will say is there will be further invoices.
:04:11. > :04:14.You know, I think you need to look at the possibility of making a small
:04:15. > :04:17.payment on a monthly basis, rather than paying the whole amount.
:04:18. > :04:23.But this won't disrupt your sister's treatment, OK?
:04:24. > :04:36.We're joined now by the doctor and broadcaster Dr Phil Hammond.
:04:37. > :04:43.Welcome to the Daily Politics. It costs the NHS ?1.8 billion per year,
:04:44. > :04:48.isn't it a good thing that Jeremy Hunt wants to get tough? Yes, but it
:04:49. > :04:52.is interesting that the health tourism story is always wheeled out
:04:53. > :04:57.when there are big stories in the media about the crisis in social
:04:58. > :05:01.care, the long wait in hospital, people dying in corridors and on
:05:02. > :05:06.waiting lists, let's throw this old chestnut! Yes, it is good to be good
:05:07. > :05:10.money if you can do it safely and fairly. The problem is denying
:05:11. > :05:14.routine care is it can turn up as an emergency situation. I have no issue
:05:15. > :05:16.about it, if I go to France I have to pay by credit card and we keep
:05:17. > :05:34.the money, but it is a tiny fraction of the NHS budget and a
:05:35. > :05:37.smoke screen for bigger problems of funding in the NHS, so let's talk
:05:38. > :05:40.about it but we have precious airtime to talk about the problems
:05:41. > :05:42.in the NHS and we should talk about the lack of doctors, nurses, GPs,
:05:43. > :05:45.rather than this issue. Isn't that the point, that it is small beer
:05:46. > :05:47.compared to what the NHS needs? Call me old-fashioned but ?1.8 billion is
:05:48. > :05:50.not old beer. I understand the point he's making but this isn't an old
:05:51. > :05:55.chestnut that is wheeled out, it has been going on for about ten years.
:05:56. > :06:02.Kate and I have both been involved on talents migration and one of the
:06:03. > :06:06.issues we looked at is the question that keeps coming up here and the
:06:07. > :06:10.large costs accumulating to the NHS. I agree in terms of the overall
:06:11. > :06:14.spend it is not great but it is money that should be recouped and
:06:15. > :06:19.there is a simple way of doing it, that people on visitors visas when
:06:20. > :06:22.they come to the country should come with a health-insurance certificate.
:06:23. > :06:26.You want them to prove that when they enter the country? I want them
:06:27. > :06:31.to prove it when they enter the country. You are nodding agreement?
:06:32. > :06:37.I think the public will see that this is about public and rights,
:06:38. > :06:40.that people should have to pay, when other people in this country
:06:41. > :06:44.contribute through their national insurance to the NHS, which needs
:06:45. > :06:47.more money, and I understand what Doctor Hammond is saying, more money
:06:48. > :06:52.is needed, there are real problems, but let's not throw this away
:06:53. > :06:57.because there are big, important issues, let's get it sorted. I see
:06:58. > :07:01.it all the time even at my own hospital. Let's talk about the
:07:02. > :07:04.detail about how it would work, but, Nicholas Soames, did you take the
:07:05. > :07:09.point made by Doctor Phil Hammond that it is a distraction from the
:07:10. > :07:14.bigger issues both financially and in terms of scale that are at the
:07:15. > :07:19.moment affecting the NHS? No, I don't think that is a sensible point
:07:20. > :07:27.to make. The NHS struggles for Adam, there is never a moment it is not on
:07:28. > :07:30.television because of the situation! This is an important point and
:07:31. > :07:36.touches on a whole different area of issues, it is not a very complicated
:07:37. > :07:40.matter, actually, and if you choose to make it so, hospitals are full of
:07:41. > :07:47.administrators, if you choose to make it a reasonably simple process,
:07:48. > :07:52.let it be known we will recoup the money. Is it complicated, Doctor
:07:53. > :07:56.Hammond, or as simple as having the staff within hospitals to recoup the
:07:57. > :08:00.money? We don't know, the point about the NHS is it should be based
:08:01. > :08:05.on proper evidence, so you would do a trial, see if you can recoup the
:08:06. > :08:08.money. The problem with political innovations is people come up with
:08:09. > :08:10.things that the Cancer Drugs Fund and dementia screening that are not
:08:11. > :08:28.based on evidence. If you want to see if it is safe and it
:08:29. > :08:30.works, do a proper trial and evaluated, they have tried in one or
:08:31. > :08:33.two hospitals but it needs to be rolled out carefully and evaluated
:08:34. > :08:36.so I cannot give you that answer. I can tell you the growth in demand
:08:37. > :08:38.for health and social care rises every year, there is a ?50 billion
:08:39. > :08:41.black hole in health and social gaffe finances and if we don't
:08:42. > :08:43.address that the NHS will collapse like a souffle and there will be
:08:44. > :08:45.little point in discussing this tiny Boyd alongside the big issue. It
:08:46. > :08:49.already happens in the maternity unit at Saint Thomas, everybody
:08:50. > :08:54.coming to the maternity unit gives some identity of where they are
:08:55. > :09:01.living. If they are within the EEE eight they would show their card...
:09:02. > :09:06.Public should not think that anyone who comes to this country as a
:09:07. > :09:10.tourist and has a terrible accident, that we would leave them lying on
:09:11. > :09:15.the ground, this is not about emergency treatment. Should it be
:09:16. > :09:19.about emergency treatment, as well? No, but the idea that someone that
:09:20. > :09:24.comes as a tourist and does not take out insurance to cover the cost of
:09:25. > :09:29.medical care where if I would have to do that if I went outside the
:09:30. > :09:32.EEA... Doctor Hammond, you made the case of saying it is small beer
:09:33. > :09:37.compared to the problems of social care funding in the NHS, but what
:09:38. > :09:41.about English taxpayers, they may feel aggrieved that they are, to
:09:42. > :09:47.some extent, funding the nonemergency care of people who live
:09:48. > :09:50.outside the EU or European economic area, like the Filipino lady in the
:09:51. > :09:55.film that we showed, and it is running into tens of thousands of
:09:56. > :10:11.pounds? I absolutely take that point but the
:10:12. > :10:15.other point is there are lots of people the NHS is therefore, like
:10:16. > :10:18.people who are homeless who don't carry around two forms of ID and
:10:19. > :10:20.there will be an issue if we deny care to people who don't have the
:10:21. > :10:23.right identification because the NHS is therefore the people who need it
:10:24. > :10:25.most. We have staggering levels of health inequality, poor people died
:10:26. > :10:28.ten years earlier than rich people and have 20 years more of disease
:10:29. > :10:30.living than rich people. The idea of denying treatment because we cannot
:10:31. > :10:33.prove people are UK residents, there will be side effects, so let's do it
:10:34. > :10:36.and piloted properly rather than using it as a smoke screen to cover
:10:37. > :10:40.the other problems in the NHS. Do you recognise the problems you could
:10:41. > :10:44.run into? It is imperative that we recover such money as we need to put
:10:45. > :10:50.back in. But what about the bureaucratic problems are people who
:10:51. > :10:53.are homeless... You have to find a way around it and hard cases make
:10:54. > :10:58.bad law. I agree that we certainly should do a trial but we will find a
:10:59. > :11:00.way to do it. But it is not true to say this is some recycled old
:11:01. > :11:05.chestnut to draw attention from other things, it is an important
:11:06. > :11:17.problem, people do mind about it and they need to be reassured. Kate, you
:11:18. > :11:19.gave the example of a hospital in your area and their right examples
:11:20. > :11:22.where there are people, like Terry in the film, officers there to
:11:23. > :11:24.recoup the money no doubt within the EU and outside, but the whole
:11:25. > :11:28.principle of the NHS is that it should be free at the point of use
:11:29. > :11:30.so most hospitals will not be geared up for that because they will think
:11:31. > :11:36.there are not that many people they have to deal with? There will be
:11:37. > :11:39.hospitals where it does not happen very often and it will be easier for
:11:40. > :11:42.them because they won't have to deal with hundreds and hundreds of
:11:43. > :11:48.people. But up until about ten years ago this was really, really, and
:11:49. > :11:52.suddenly at my hospital there were clearly people coming into Heathrow
:11:53. > :11:58.and going straight to Saint Thomas' all guys, or the London hospitals,
:11:59. > :12:01.and we have to accept that people are contributing, the NHS is
:12:02. > :12:04.ultimately first and foremost for those contributing through national
:12:05. > :12:07.insurance in this country and there is nothing wrong with that. The
:12:08. > :12:13.average person watching this programme would think this is common
:12:14. > :12:17.sense. Phil Hammond, if we take the example Kate Hoey has said, people
:12:18. > :12:21.coming directly from the airport to the hospital, there is the example
:12:22. > :12:26.of a woman patient from Nigeria who had quads on the NHS, she had tried
:12:27. > :12:31.I think to have those quads in the US first of all but they didn't let
:12:32. > :12:34.her in because she didn't have health insurance and couldn't prove
:12:35. > :12:39.that she could pay for it. Was it right the NHS should pick up the
:12:40. > :12:42.pieces? Know it is not necessarily write the NHS should and think
:12:43. > :12:55.should be judged on individual cases, but my point is to have a
:12:56. > :12:57.wider debate about the overall funding of health and social. I go
:12:58. > :13:00.around the country and every audience says they would be prepared
:13:01. > :13:03.to put more money into the NHS if it was guaranteed to be spent on
:13:04. > :13:05.treatment is proven to work, not wasted on political reorganisation,
:13:06. > :13:07.outsourcing, etc, so let's have this wider mature debate about how much
:13:08. > :13:11.money we are putting in and what to spend it on, and this would be part
:13:12. > :13:14.of that debate. We take up this time when there are other important...
:13:15. > :13:19.You could arguably deal with this separately and also have a debate
:13:20. > :13:26.about whether taxpayers are prepared to fund the NHS further in some way,
:13:27. > :13:29.but why not deal with what seems a fairly open and shut case, certainly
:13:30. > :13:35.to our deaths here and others, recoup the money then have the
:13:36. > :13:38.broader debate as well? I agree, let's try a little and see if it is
:13:39. > :13:44.feasible without being unfair and discriminating against homeless
:13:45. > :13:49.people who cannot provide identification and does not take
:13:50. > :13:52.people into becoming emergency care, let's have an evaluation. How easy
:13:53. > :13:55.would it be to change the law, because you would have to change the
:13:56. > :14:01.law for people to come into this country proving that they had the
:14:02. > :14:04.means to pay for any health accidents that might befall them
:14:05. > :14:08.when they are here, you would have to change legislation? If you want
:14:09. > :14:12.to do something, you get on and do it, there will be a way to do it. I
:14:13. > :14:17.am not disagreeing with Doctor Hammond about the overall context,
:14:18. > :14:21.I'm really not, but this is important and it is absurd that 1.8
:14:22. > :14:26.billion is not seen as a lot of money. If it is so important, why
:14:27. > :14:30.hasn't it happened? Innocence, it is an old chestnut because I have been
:14:31. > :14:36.discussions about this over a period of at least ten years, so why not do
:14:37. > :14:40.it? I think it has got better, the way hospitals now actually pursue
:14:41. > :14:44.the money and also check with people, which did not happen ten
:14:45. > :14:49.years ago... But you don't need insurance? No, and I think people
:14:50. > :14:52.should have to do that when they show their passport, we don't want
:14:53. > :14:56.to be like America but people are expected to show they have the
:14:57. > :15:01.insurance when they go there. But it has not happened? It is inconsistent
:15:02. > :15:06.and some hospitals do it seriously and get on with it, other hospitals
:15:07. > :15:09.don't do it at all, and all it is about is returning consistency and
:15:10. > :15:14.good order to the financial management of the NHS and I don't
:15:15. > :15:18.disagree with what Doctor Hammond said about carrying that try
:15:19. > :15:21.allowed. We need the debate, but let's get this sorted. Well, Doctor
:15:22. > :15:24.Hammond, they agree with you! Thank you very much.
:15:25. > :15:28.The question for today is, what is Marine Le Pen ditching?
:15:29. > :15:41.At the end of the show Nicholas and Kate will give us
:15:42. > :15:45.Now, in the past few minutes the Israeli Prime Minster has
:15:46. > :15:47.arrived in Downing Street for his first meeting
:15:48. > :15:49.with Theresa May since she became Prime Minister.
:15:50. > :15:52.Number 10 has said that Mrs May wants to talk trade
:15:53. > :15:55.with Benjamin Netanyahu, as Britain is Israel's second
:15:56. > :15:58.biggest trading partner, but it's also reported
:15:59. > :16:01.than she will restate the UK's opposition to settlement
:16:02. > :16:03.building in the occupied Palestinian territories.
:16:04. > :16:11.We're joined now by James Sorene of the pro-Israel think tank, Bicom.
:16:12. > :16:19.Welcome to you. I'll come to you in just a moment. Nicholas, Katusha
:16:20. > :16:23.Theresa May be with Mr Netanyahu over continued settlement building
:16:24. > :16:27.in the West Bank? I think she should be firm. I don't think it's a
:16:28. > :16:33.question being tough, I think she should firm and its breast the
:16:34. > :16:38.long-held views of this government that settlement building is
:16:39. > :16:41.extremely unhelpful and at the pace that is going on at the moment there
:16:42. > :16:46.will be no way for a two state solution, which I think is key to
:16:47. > :16:50.moving forward. So I think she should be firm, respectful. They are
:16:51. > :16:54.allies and friends. But I think it's important that she will make that
:16:55. > :16:59.point, and I know she will. How will that be received by Benjamin
:17:00. > :17:03.Netanyahu, being told firmly if respectfully to stop building Jewish
:17:04. > :17:06.settlements in occupied territories? I think there's an interesting
:17:07. > :17:12.domestic political game that goes on in Israel where particularly people
:17:13. > :17:16.are Netanyahu's right flank want to hear announcements about expanding
:17:17. > :17:19.settlements. That's something Netanyahu does a lots. Just last
:17:20. > :17:26.week he dismantled and a legal settlement on the West Bank. It was
:17:27. > :17:29.clear that the pictures that would send out of them dismantling a
:17:30. > :17:32.settlement would cause him domestic political damage. It's not
:17:33. > :17:36.surprising that they have then announced very quickly the building
:17:37. > :17:40.of new settlements. Settlements are very much Israel's problems. Israel
:17:41. > :17:45.has shown in the past that it has made generous offers to the
:17:46. > :17:48.Palestinians and it has said that it will dismantle many settlements in
:17:49. > :17:52.the outer edges of the West Bank in any deal with the Palestinians. As
:17:53. > :17:55.much as they might announce new building, they will have to
:17:56. > :17:59.dismantle and evacuate if Palestinians ever do accept any of
:18:00. > :18:04.the Israeli offers. Does it also point to the fact that actually
:18:05. > :18:06.belief in a two state solution with a viable Palestinian state has
:18:07. > :18:13.pretty well disappeared in Israeli circles? I think that has been going
:18:14. > :18:16.on for a long time. The pro-peace wing, particularly in the Labour
:18:17. > :18:21.Party in Israel, was destroyed not by settlements but by Hamas
:18:22. > :18:28.terrorist attacks. It has undermined this idea that Israel gave up land,
:18:29. > :18:32.it would get peace. That has been trajectory. Israel left Gaza in 2005
:18:33. > :18:36.and ever since then they've had Israel attacks into mainland Israel.
:18:37. > :18:45.The Israeli domestic political arena, giving up land has led team
:18:46. > :18:52.very, very difficult results. Kate ,, what leveraged as Mr Netanyahu
:18:53. > :18:58.have? We are a friend of Israel, and they are an ally of hours. We have
:18:59. > :19:03.the kind of way that Theresa May will deal with the Prime Minister, I
:19:04. > :19:06.hope, will be to be very firm, as Nicholas has said. But also to make
:19:07. > :19:10.it clear that we respect international law. Whether they like
:19:11. > :19:16.it or not, the United Nations did pass that legal judgment, or legal
:19:17. > :19:20.vote, just before Christmas on the illegal settlements. It's very
:19:21. > :19:25.interesting, it's 100 years this year since the bill for declaration.
:19:26. > :19:30.So we do have a special kind of involvement. It's never had any
:19:31. > :19:35.impact. Settlements have continued to be built by successive Israeli
:19:36. > :19:39.governments. The government of Israel is in breach of endless UN
:19:40. > :19:44.resolutions, and we have put that to one side. Israel doesn't pay much
:19:45. > :19:48.attention to anyone. Though what difference will it make? I think it
:19:49. > :19:53.is important that we acknowledge the great injustice that has been done,
:19:54. > :19:59.and it is important that the settlements do not go on being
:20:00. > :20:02.built. When the gentleman said that Prime Minister Netanyahu dismantled
:20:03. > :20:10.a tiny settlement, he then announced the building of another 2000 houses.
:20:11. > :20:14.I think it is an important point for Netanyahu to acknowledge that there
:20:15. > :20:19.are many people in many countries who feel very strongly that there
:20:20. > :20:23.are great injustice is being done. James, the other thing is that the
:20:24. > :20:26.steady growth of settlement has long been considered in violation of
:20:27. > :20:31.international law. But is there a step change because even the
:20:32. > :20:35.Americans, at the last UN vote, abstained. They have always voted
:20:36. > :20:39.against any resolution that condemns Israeli settlement building. Is that
:20:40. > :20:45.a step change that Benjamin Netanyahu is worried about? I think
:20:46. > :20:49.that resolution that was intended as a rebuke to Israel to try and change
:20:50. > :20:53.its policy. I think there is a debate that continues about whether
:20:54. > :20:58.settlement of the obstacle or one obstacle. I think Prime Minister
:20:59. > :21:03.Theresa May was very clear when she criticised John Kerry's speech. She
:21:04. > :21:06.said she didn't think the place of settlement at the heart of the
:21:07. > :21:12.conflict was constructive. Britain voted against as well. They did, but
:21:13. > :21:15.John Kerry's speech was corrected and invent diplomacy has been going
:21:16. > :21:22.in an interesting direction. They believe that direct talks are the
:21:23. > :21:25.only way to resolve the conflict. Britain did not participate in the
:21:26. > :21:31.Paris peace conference. And Boris Johnson pretty much blocked a
:21:32. > :21:37.communique at the EU foreign affairs meeting. Is that because Nicholas
:21:38. > :21:42.Soames, in the end, trade is going to be very important? Theresa May
:21:43. > :21:46.won't risk anything that will imperil a free trade relationship. I
:21:47. > :21:49.don't believe that Britain's relationship with Israel is going to
:21:50. > :21:56.be impaled on the trade front by Brexit. I think it's very important
:21:57. > :21:59.to make this point. People are obsessed about everything being
:22:00. > :22:05.about trade. They will look at the Tron meeting, when they? This
:22:06. > :22:10.country plays a big role in international affairs. -- they will
:22:11. > :22:14.look at the Trump meeting. It's important that we deal with the
:22:15. > :22:17.major issues. Between Britain and Israel, there is a major
:22:18. > :22:22.disagreement over settlements. Do you agree with that on trade, Kate,
:22:23. > :22:26.that this is as important or more important than a future free-trade
:22:27. > :22:31.deal with Israel? I think trade is important. But there has been an
:22:32. > :22:35.injustice to the Palestinians that has gone way down to the bottom of
:22:36. > :22:39.the list of all the other injustices going on around the world. I really
:22:40. > :22:44.do feel that we have to continue. And the more unity that we can have
:22:45. > :22:50.across political parties on this in the United Kingdom, and the more
:22:51. > :22:53.strength it gives to the United Kingdom -- gives to the Prime
:22:54. > :22:56.Minister, I hope she will be saying to the Israeli Prime Minister that
:22:57. > :23:00.it isn't good enough for them to continue with what they are doing.
:23:01. > :23:04.The Israelis and Brits together will want a free-trade deal, whatever
:23:05. > :23:09.happens. It's also important to emphasise that they we have our
:23:10. > :23:12.profound disagreements, we are very intense collaborators with the
:23:13. > :23:15.Israelis on intelligence, on Sciver and an all sorts of other issues.
:23:16. > :23:20.Which is what the Prime Minister will be talking to Mr Netanyahu
:23:21. > :23:23.about today. It isn't just one thing, it's a whole range of
:23:24. > :23:28.interest. Just briefly, what did you think about the Americans idea of
:23:29. > :23:36.moving their embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Catastrophic. Stupid,
:23:37. > :23:44.foolish and idiotic. James, do you agree with that? If they did me the
:23:45. > :23:49.embassy, would it be an enormous provocation to the Palestinians? On
:23:50. > :23:52.one hand, Israel's capital is Jerusalem and west Jerusalem, where
:23:53. > :23:59.the gunmen is position, is not really an area of dispute. DDB
:24:00. > :24:05.Palestinians would like to have Jerusalem or East Jerusalem as their
:24:06. > :24:08.capital? It's perfectly possible to have an American embassy in West
:24:09. > :24:11.Jerusalem and in East Jerusalem. I hope this will be one of the many
:24:12. > :24:13.things that Trump said he will do that he won't do. Thank you very
:24:14. > :24:16.much for joining us. How do you guarantee
:24:17. > :24:18.success as Prime Minister? Well, it's early days
:24:19. > :24:20.for Theresa May, but luckily for her the academic and biographer
:24:21. > :24:22.Anthony Seldon has put I am Anthony Seldon,
:24:23. > :24:35.and I have written biographies of most Prime Ministers
:24:36. > :24:39.since Winston Churchill came The popular image of most
:24:40. > :24:43.of these Prime Ministers is that they were failures -
:24:44. > :24:46.even the two genuine successes post-war, Clement Attlee
:24:47. > :24:48.and Margaret Thatcher, had careers that fizzled
:24:49. > :24:52.out at Number 10. So what is it that Prime Ministers
:24:53. > :24:55.could be doing to make a success Here are ten points gleaned
:24:56. > :25:05.from a lifetime of study, which I think that if those
:25:06. > :25:07.Prime Ministers were to follow, they would have happy days leaving
:25:08. > :25:11.Number 10 not in tears, Get them doing the jobs, policy,
:25:12. > :25:23.politics, presentation, Parliament. Don't fall out of with
:25:24. > :25:28.Cabinet Secretary. Find it early on and propagate it,
:25:29. > :25:36.or the media will do it for you. Get your two or three big themes out
:25:37. > :25:47.there early on and stick to them relentlessly all the way
:25:48. > :25:51.through to the end Make your Cabinet ministers, your
:25:52. > :26:00.officials, your team do the work. Carve out your own time greedily
:26:01. > :26:04.for thinking, resting, relaxing, Set your expectations of them very
:26:05. > :26:15.early on and stick to them. Find a Cabinet fixer
:26:16. > :26:28.to be chief prefect, to yap at their heels and keep
:26:29. > :26:31.them in order. Have a fight with them
:26:32. > :26:37.early on and win it. You're not just Head of Government,
:26:38. > :26:48.your half Head of State, You're going to be in charge
:26:49. > :26:53.of relations with the US, Eight - seize the big
:26:54. > :27:04.moments and command them. The major financial events,
:27:05. > :27:08.the crises, the cock-ups. Weave everything
:27:09. > :27:15.into your own themes. Minimise reshuffles,
:27:16. > :27:21.initiatives, relaunches. You might be First Lord
:27:22. > :27:38.of the Treasury, but you are not Find someone who you trust totally,
:27:39. > :27:48.neither tiger ignore poodle. This relationship will
:27:49. > :28:04.make you or break you. And Anthony Seldon joins us
:28:05. > :28:16.now from Northampton. Welcome to the Daily Politics. We've
:28:17. > :28:20.heard your advice in detail to a Prime Minister. How do you think
:28:21. > :28:24.Theresa May is doing against those ten points? I think she's doing
:28:25. > :28:28.pretty well at the moment. Seven months in, she had no time to think
:28:29. > :28:33.and prepare for what she was going to do, unlike President Trump who
:28:34. > :28:40.had two months after the election. She's got a big scene in Europe.
:28:41. > :28:44.She's got themes, two, around social mobility. She's got a strong team in
:28:45. > :28:49.Number 10. I think she's doing pretty well. To your rules apply. As
:28:50. > :28:54.you say, she's got this normal task to achieve, which is taking Britain
:28:55. > :28:59.out of the EU. Do your rules apply to their Prime Minister with that
:29:00. > :29:03.sort of role? Absolutely. I think that coming to office without that
:29:04. > :29:11.time to prepare for it, having your one biggest bean picks for you I
:29:12. > :29:16.think is a great help. -- one biggest theme. For Gordon Brown, his
:29:17. > :29:21.biggest theme was the crisis in the world economy. That was thrust on
:29:22. > :29:24.him. When he lost that even, when it slipped out of primary view, he lost
:29:25. > :29:29.focus and it became utterly apparent that it was unclear why he was there
:29:30. > :29:33.in Number 10, why he had ousted Tony Blair out of office. So I think it's
:29:34. > :29:37.going to help her. But she's been quite clever in getting her other
:29:38. > :29:45.themes percolating under the surface. But even with that,
:29:46. > :29:49.Nicholas Soames, other things percolating the there is a risk that
:29:50. > :29:53.Brexit overshadows every other bit of government policy. I think it's
:29:54. > :29:58.important that it doesn't. I believe entirely with what Anthony has said.
:29:59. > :30:02.If anyone should know what a Prime Minister should do, it is him, from
:30:03. > :30:05.very careful study. But I think it's very important that all the other
:30:06. > :30:09.things that need to be dealt with by government dealt with at the same
:30:10. > :30:16.time. And that it doesn't dominate the agenda. But it will, when it? It
:30:17. > :30:20.on how much time. The negotiations will go on well into two years of
:30:21. > :30:25.negotiating, and there's an enormous amount to do in this country.
:30:26. > :30:32.Do you think Theresa May is taking Anthony's advice in terms of how to
:30:33. > :30:37.run prime ministerial office? At the risk of being trolled on Twitter, I
:30:38. > :30:41.think she's done a very, very good job and must be feeling quite
:30:42. > :30:47.pleased at how things have gone. Given that she came in there,
:30:48. > :30:51.really, after losing the referendum, in the sense that she was on the
:30:52. > :30:57.other side, and then have had to pick up and get a party that was
:30:58. > :31:00.divided on it seeming, I'm afraid, a lot more united than my party at the
:31:01. > :31:07.moment. But you would say that because you are a Leaver and she is
:31:08. > :31:13.putting in place what you have long supported... I think she has come in
:31:14. > :31:17.and I just, when I watch Prime Minister's Questions now or see her
:31:18. > :31:21.particularly abroad at international events, I have to say I feel quite
:31:22. > :31:26.proud that she is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. You sound
:31:27. > :31:31.like you wanted joined the Conservatives! I just think the
:31:32. > :31:34.public is fed up with every time a politician say something, the other
:31:35. > :31:38.side has to oppose it. We have to recognise sometimes that the country
:31:39. > :31:41.comes first and what she's doing at the moment, under difficult
:31:42. > :31:45.circumstances, I think are reasonable in terms of Brexit and
:31:46. > :31:50.the way she has handled... That is not what your leader Jeremy Corbyn
:31:51. > :31:54.says every week at Prime Minister's Questions. To pick up on what Kate
:31:55. > :31:58.says, it is a much easier job for her because she voted for Remain. I
:31:59. > :32:02.think if it was a Brexit Prime Minister it would be much harder.
:32:03. > :32:09.But there is another point there which is she has that kind of common
:32:10. > :32:14.sense leadership and a sense of wisdom that Jim Callaghan had, who
:32:15. > :32:18.was also a Prime Minister at difficult times, let's remember the
:32:19. > :32:21.IMF crisis, when he had one big theme and developed other things
:32:22. > :32:28.also, probably too late in his case but has that sense of the common
:32:29. > :32:33.person, the man on the street who feels, yes, this is somebody who
:32:34. > :32:39.understands my life, and that's quite a rare and quite important at
:32:40. > :32:44.the present time... Her PR operation will be very pleased with these
:32:45. > :32:48.interviews, but your recent biography of David Cameron, which
:32:49. > :32:55.will did he fail to follow that lead to his resignation? I think he was
:32:56. > :33:03.in a very difficult position on the referendum, and I think that he
:33:04. > :33:07.would have been much wiser to have listened more widely, the mistake I
:33:08. > :33:13.think he made on the referendum was to imagine that the other side were
:33:14. > :33:18.full of people who were foolish, he should have given much more credit
:33:19. > :33:23.to the many, many sensible people, I was eight Remainer but I respect
:33:24. > :33:27.people on the Brexit side, they had many good arguments, and I think you
:33:28. > :33:32.lost touch and became over obsessed with giving a negative view, so I
:33:33. > :33:41.think losing touch with people, with his Cabinet, becoming too much of a
:33:42. > :33:44.bunker. It is very hard in that building, Nicholas and Kate will
:33:45. > :33:47.know that you tend to get in a bunker after a few years, look
:33:48. > :33:50.inwards rather than outwards. Let's look at what happens to Theresa May
:33:51. > :33:52.and whether Brexit does dominate everything over the next few years.
:33:53. > :33:53.Thank you. Now, the majority of Labour MPs
:33:54. > :33:55.who believe Britain should stay in the EU have been agonising
:33:56. > :33:59.about how to vote on the bill that will allow Theresa May to begin
:34:00. > :34:02.the process of our withdrawal. She one of a handful
:34:03. > :34:05.who campaigned for Brexit Let's just remind ourselves
:34:06. > :34:08.of the contribution that MUSIC: "Leave Right
:34:09. > :34:13.Now" by Will Young. # Think I'd better leave right now
:34:14. > :34:17.before I fall any deeper. # I think I'd better
:34:18. > :34:22.leave right now. # Somebody better show me how
:34:23. > :34:30.before I fall any deeper. # I think I'd better
:34:31. > :34:33.leave right now... Free movement is not
:34:34. > :34:42.about being benign, it's about bidding down wages,
:34:43. > :34:46.it's making sure wages are kept down If you cannot get rid of the people
:34:47. > :34:53.that are in an institution, # Somebody better show me out
:34:54. > :35:04.before I fall any deeper. # I think I'd better
:35:05. > :35:15.leave right now #. Kate Hoey and her Brexit-supporting
:35:16. > :35:18.Labour colleagues there. But there's been controversy
:35:19. > :35:22.about the relationship between Labour Leave and the party's
:35:23. > :35:25.political foes in Ukip. Electoral Commission records show
:35:26. > :35:27.that Ukip accepted a donation The Labour MEP Seb Dance has
:35:28. > :35:32.complained to the Labour Party about that donation,
:35:33. > :35:42.and joins us now. Welcome to the Daily Politics, why
:35:43. > :35:46.does it matter if Labour Leave gave money to Ukip? It is not officially
:35:47. > :35:50.affiliated to the party so surely it is not bound by the same rules? It
:35:51. > :35:53.is not affiliated but members of Labour Leave are members of the
:35:54. > :35:57.Labour Party and there is a clear role in the Labour Party's rule book
:35:58. > :36:01.that if you give money and support another political party then you are
:36:02. > :36:09.effectively excluded from the Labour Party. Kate Hoey, what did you say
:36:10. > :36:17.to that? It was not a donation, it is down as a donation but that is
:36:18. > :36:21.what the electoral commission told us, Labour Leave organised with
:36:22. > :36:25.various groups in rallies all over the country and this was our share
:36:26. > :36:29.of the money that we had to pay towards the organisation, the
:36:30. > :36:34.security and all of that. Very simple, there is nothing to be
:36:35. > :36:38.hidden about this, and I'm just surprised that somebody who is an
:36:39. > :36:42.MEP and has such a big important job for another year or so, to actually
:36:43. > :36:49.not just push something like this, but, fine. I understand the need to
:36:50. > :37:00.share platforms... Know, to share costs for the platforms. The ?15,000
:37:01. > :37:04.was the cost... ?18,500 went to Ukip Central party. Because that is who
:37:05. > :37:08.paid out the cost and that is how the electoral commission told us to
:37:09. > :37:13.do it. But there are two questions, the political question, why share
:37:14. > :37:17.your platform with Ukip rather than the umbrella Vote Leave group, Ukip
:37:18. > :37:20.are on the far right of politics and support an agenda that vilifies
:37:21. > :37:24.people who have come to live and contribute to this country, why make
:37:25. > :37:27.that political decision? And the second question is why the donation
:37:28. > :37:32.was made specifically to Ukip and not through an umbrella group, to an
:37:33. > :37:39.organisation that facilitates the sharing. Labour Leave organised with
:37:40. > :37:42.Ukip and leave. EU and some of the Lib Dems who were in favour of
:37:43. > :37:47.leaving rallies all over the country. The reason we did it was
:37:48. > :37:51.because at those rallies there were thousands of Labour supporters,
:37:52. > :37:55.ex-Labour supporters, and they wanted to see Labour MPs there
:37:56. > :37:59.because it was important to them to know there were some people in the
:38:00. > :38:03.Labour Party who wanted to leave. You are trying to make out as if
:38:04. > :38:06.there is some kind of absolute support for Ukip, we opposed Ukip on
:38:07. > :38:10.all sorts of things but the reality was Ukip or one of those many
:38:11. > :38:15.organisations campaigning to leave... It is a different party, of
:38:16. > :38:20.course, but were you comfortable with that, sharing a platform with a
:38:21. > :38:25.political party that says it wants to replace Labour? I said right at
:38:26. > :38:28.the beginning, so did the Conservatives, I did platforms with
:38:29. > :38:32.David Davis and all sorts of people, this was a referendum, not on a
:38:33. > :38:35.party political bases, and I said at the beginning I would step platforms
:38:36. > :38:40.with anyone within reason who was wanting to leave the European Union.
:38:41. > :38:57.And the Remain side held cross-party event as well
:38:58. > :39:00.across the what was the difference? The difference here is having a
:39:01. > :39:02.mainstream newsgroup, Vote Leave, and this Leave.EU funded by Aaron
:39:03. > :39:04.Banks, supported by Ukip, and you have campaigning with the leader of
:39:05. > :39:07.the United Kingdom Independence party, Nigel Barrage, on a yacht
:39:08. > :39:09.during the so-called Battle of the Thames, the visuals are clear. You
:39:10. > :39:12.have a political choice whether or not to align yourself with a
:39:13. > :39:17.mainstream leave organisation. We did, we work with both, I did
:39:18. > :39:23.meetings of Boris Johnson, is that acceptable? That would certainly fit
:39:24. > :39:28.into the mainstream campaign... We also had grassroots... You embraced
:39:29. > :39:33.the alternative as well, that is the issue. There is a difference between
:39:34. > :39:37.official campaigns or unofficial campaigns and rival political
:39:38. > :39:42.parties... No, that was not the way the referendum rules were let out.
:39:43. > :39:48.Jo, I think this is absolutely not, all of it. I have shared platforms
:39:49. > :39:54.with some absolute sewers in my time. Anyone who knows Kate Hoey
:39:55. > :39:58.knows that she is a woman of absolute iron integrity. I don't
:39:59. > :40:01.believe a word of this, I think it is just stuff and nonsense which
:40:02. > :40:08.gets jumped on by the media as if it was some great... It is just not
:40:09. > :40:13.true. Should Kate Hoey be sanctioned for this? I'm not questioning
:40:14. > :40:19.people's integrity, unquestioning people's judgment. Same thing. No,
:40:20. > :40:23.there is a key question about the account into which the money was
:40:24. > :40:25.paid and all I have done is ask the general secretary of the Labour
:40:26. > :40:30.Party to investigate whether this is a breach of the rules. That is fine,
:40:31. > :40:34.he will talk to the electoral commission and the that was the
:40:35. > :40:37.advice given. He may do but it is incumbent on these questions to be
:40:38. > :40:42.raised, why was the money paid directly to Ukip's account? Is this
:40:43. > :40:47.the difficulty with referendum campaigns, they are different? Isn't
:40:48. > :40:53.this the problem. It is not a problem. I don't think it is a
:40:54. > :40:58.problem, what we are talking about now, but sometimes after the
:40:59. > :41:00.referendum the electoral commission needs to look generally at how it
:41:01. > :41:04.has worked and whether there are changes to be made if we should ever
:41:05. > :41:08.have another referendum. I was going to say what Kate has just said, it
:41:09. > :41:12.may well be that they need to create a new framework for this. We have
:41:13. > :41:15.not had one for a very long time, but the suggestion that something
:41:16. > :41:23.wrong has been maliciously done is just rot. John Mills, our greatest
:41:24. > :41:27.donor, you still want him to donate to the Labour Party, I hope? I want
:41:28. > :41:33.everybody to donate to the Labour Party! As I said, there is a
:41:34. > :41:37.political question as to why sharing a platform with Ukip is preferred
:41:38. > :41:44.over Vote Leave... It wasn't preferred! And why it went to the
:41:45. > :41:47.specific account, and other questions about involvement, pulling
:41:48. > :41:50.in Stoke seems to favour Ukip, there are serious questions... Lets leave
:41:51. > :41:53.it there, we have run out of time. Thank keep coming in, Seb Dance.
:41:54. > :41:56.It's recess week next week, as both Houses of Parliament rise
:41:57. > :42:00.But before they head off for a break, what's in store
:42:01. > :42:06.The European Union Bill begins its three-day committee stage today.
:42:07. > :42:09.We'll learn what amendments, if any, will be able to be debated
:42:10. > :42:12.Communities Secretary Sajid Javid is expected to publish
:42:13. > :42:13.the Government's long-awaited Housing White Paper tomorrow.
:42:14. > :42:16.The big question is, will the Government switch focus
:42:17. > :42:20.Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will lock horns at midday
:42:21. > :42:26.on Wednesday for Prime Minister's Questions.
:42:27. > :42:28.Later that day we're expecting MPs to vote again
:42:29. > :42:31.on the Brexit Bill which, if passed, will then move
:42:32. > :42:35.And Thursday is the last day of business in the Commons and Lords
:42:36. > :42:37.before both Houses rise for the February half-term recess.
:42:38. > :42:40.We're joined now by Pippa Crerar, from the London Evening Standard,
:42:41. > :42:43.and Chris Hope, from the Daily Telegraph.
:42:44. > :42:52.Welcome to both of you. Chris, how many amendments if any do you think
:42:53. > :42:59.will be selected? I'm not sure that many, their rather lots of
:43:00. > :43:03.amendments gone down, only about 136 pages, 147 amendments, so not that
:43:04. > :43:07.many, maybe 15 or so but the big question is how many get through.
:43:08. > :43:11.They have got a majority around 30 with the DUP support, the
:43:12. > :43:16.Government, so it is unlikely many will get through at all but it will
:43:17. > :43:21.be tight. At issue of a meaningful vote rather than a take it or leave
:43:22. > :43:25.it out. Pippa, what is, in your mind, and meaningful vote towards
:43:26. > :43:29.the end of the two years? That is what everyone wants to know, there
:43:30. > :43:31.have been several different amendments proposed by parties and
:43:32. > :43:36.individuals in parties trying to get to the crux of that, whether it is
:43:37. > :43:42.before UK Parliament, whether the final deal is on the table and
:43:43. > :43:46.crucially a point about whether, if parliamentarians reject the final
:43:47. > :43:51.deal, whether with then end up with the case as Theresa May suggested
:43:52. > :43:57.where we go for Brexit it irrespective of a deal or not. It
:43:58. > :44:01.will be thrashed out in the next few days, obviously a few amendments the
:44:02. > :44:05.Government might find it difficult to make concessions on, for example
:44:06. > :44:08.the suggestion that David Davis might be more relaxed about having
:44:09. > :44:16.MPs kept updated on the process as we went along, there is a big
:44:17. > :44:19.support coming around, an amendment proposed by Harriet Harman for the
:44:20. > :44:22.rights of citizens already legally in the country at the time of the
:44:23. > :44:28.Brexit boat and what happens to them. There may be ground given as
:44:29. > :44:32.paper outlines on those areas, but how many Conservative Remainers do
:44:33. > :44:37.you think could join forces with Labour and the SNP on that the
:44:38. > :44:41.amendment of this meaningful vote? You have got Ken Clarke, others like
:44:42. > :44:49.Dominic Grieve, Anna Sugrue, not more than half a dozen, there are
:44:50. > :44:53.rumours of 27 by the weekend that could wreck the whole thing and
:44:54. > :44:57.others saying it could trigger a general election, that is a doomsday
:44:58. > :45:03.scenario. It will be an interesting few days but nothing more than that.
:45:04. > :45:07.I had to smile at the remarked that David Davis would be happy to come
:45:08. > :45:11.back and update Parliament! What about Labour, what do you think will
:45:12. > :45:23.happen to those who voted against Labour's line in terms of
:45:24. > :45:30.Last week 47 Labour MPs rebelled, including ten frontbenchers. It was
:45:31. > :45:34.assumed they would have to stand down from the front bench, and did
:45:35. > :45:38.so. But Diane Abbott managed to miss the vote fighting illness. There was
:45:39. > :45:41.a lot of concern and upset the Labour backbenches that if she
:45:42. > :45:45.managed to get away with it, unfortunately many people didn't
:45:46. > :45:49.believe that she was genuinely ill, then what was the point of having a
:45:50. > :45:54.three line whip? There was going to be a meeting of the Shadow Cabinet
:45:55. > :45:58.tomorrow, and the Brexit subcommittee, which includes Diane
:45:59. > :46:02.Abbott and the Brexit shadow secretary, and they will decide
:46:03. > :46:06.whether to propose another three line whip. My understanding that
:46:07. > :46:11.they will. Overall, Labour are good to back this, come what may. Whether
:46:12. > :46:15.the individual amendments voted down or not, they still have said that
:46:16. > :46:21.they're going to vote. So what is the point? If they're going to vote
:46:22. > :46:24.for it anyway whether the amendment passed, Theresa May has nothing to
:46:25. > :46:30.worry about? Not really, no. Although on some elements, I'm
:46:31. > :46:35.wondering whether Diane Abbott might die arise and illness for Wednesday
:46:36. > :46:40.evening. It might be sensible to avoid having to vote in favour of
:46:41. > :46:43.Brexit, which should avoid doing at the moment! Right, well I will leave
:46:44. > :46:48.that thought hanging in the air at the moment. Nicholas, were you one
:46:49. > :46:53.of the 27 Tory MPs planning to support wrecking amendments,
:46:54. > :46:59.according to Steve Baker, which will weaken the Prime Minister's hand? I
:47:00. > :47:05.am a staunch remain. I campaigned for it, I'm very disappointed with
:47:06. > :47:10.the results. My view now is that the best interest of my constituents and
:47:11. > :47:14.my country are served by coming to a quick conclusion on this bill and
:47:15. > :47:18.enabling the government and the Prime Minister, David Davis, Liam
:47:19. > :47:25.Fox, or the other people involved to get on with the negotiations. Some
:47:26. > :47:34.of the amendments will, I'm sure, be perfectly sensible. Yes. There are
:47:35. > :47:39.people who, like Anna Soubry and Nikki Morgan, who feel so strongly
:47:40. > :47:44.that they want to get this done. And to some extent, I support that. But
:47:45. > :47:50.I'm not going to do anything to slow this bill up in the House of
:47:51. > :47:53.Commons. You say some of the amendments are probably quite
:47:54. > :47:57.sensible and you would support them. What would be wrecking about them in
:47:58. > :48:01.that sense? Is it a case that's one of your colleagues would see any
:48:02. > :48:04.amendment? As is so often the case, anything that contravenes people who
:48:05. > :48:08.disagree with you is wrecking amendments. That's rubbish and
:48:09. > :48:14.hyperbole. But it's important that we press on. The quicker we do it
:48:15. > :48:19.with a bigger majority and they get unanimity of the House of Commons,
:48:20. > :48:24.the quicker it will be. You would be happy to support a non-wrecking
:48:25. > :48:28.amendment. The rights of EU nationals to be guaranteed, would
:48:29. > :48:32.that be one you would support? I believe that's a very important
:48:33. > :48:37.matter. Nobody's seen the amendments. There is 136 pages of
:48:38. > :48:40.them. Plenty to get through. We know there will be won on this meaningful
:48:41. > :48:45.vote. Would you support that amendment for a meaningful vote for
:48:46. > :48:49.you and your colleagues at the end of this process, or towards the end
:48:50. > :48:53.of this process, so you could hand it back? It's entirely depends on
:48:54. > :48:56.what the government says during the debate. I think the government will
:48:57. > :49:01.come up with words that will be reassuring to the House of Commons,
:49:02. > :49:04.and I will wait and see them. But I do think it's important the house is
:49:05. > :49:08.involved fully all the way through. What would be wrong with a
:49:09. > :49:11.meaningful vote just to say to be Prime Minister, could you go back
:49:12. > :49:17.and improve it? I think Nicholas speaks for a lot of people who voted
:49:18. > :49:23.to remain, who now I accept it, and willingly, but accept it, and want
:49:24. > :49:26.to get on with things. Going into these negotiations, it's really
:49:27. > :49:32.important that the other EU countries see our country as united
:49:33. > :49:35.as possible on this. That's why I can't see any, you know, this is a
:49:36. > :49:40.very narrow bill, to simply allow the negotiations to stop. I do think
:49:41. > :49:43.the amendment on the EU citizens is one that I hope the government will
:49:44. > :49:47.find a way of responding to that amendments to make us feel even more
:49:48. > :49:51.willing to support it. But the reality and that is their one
:49:52. > :49:58.countries in the the European Union holding out. You do still support,
:49:59. > :50:03.as you said... Of course. It's so obvious, it's common sense. I want
:50:04. > :50:07.to make sure that our citizens in other European countries are equally
:50:08. > :50:12.protected. I think that will happen. But I'm not sure that just passing
:50:13. > :50:16.an amendment because it makes us feel better will change the
:50:17. > :50:20.situation in terms of the reality. That's why we have to wait to hear
:50:21. > :50:25.the debate. But at the end of it all, I think on Wednesday night
:50:26. > :50:29.there will be a majority, a big majority, to pass the bill through
:50:30. > :50:31.to the House of Lords. Particularly since Labour has said that they're
:50:32. > :50:37.not going to reject triggering article 50. Finally, before I talk
:50:38. > :50:44.to Kate Hoey about Labour's position, on this result in the end,
:50:45. > :50:50.should MPs have a result on a deal, if it is presented, be given enough
:50:51. > :50:54.time for that to be improved and scrutinised, rather than at the very
:50:55. > :50:58.end of the process when if they reject it the country would fall on
:50:59. > :51:03.to WTO rules? I'm not trying to pick my words. I think it's important
:51:04. > :51:08.that we get the best deal possible. Sure. And that it is quite clear to
:51:09. > :51:11.Parliament what the government intends to do. I want full
:51:12. > :51:16.Parliamentary scrutiny throughout the process. How that will work out,
:51:17. > :51:21.it's impossible to say today. But we will let you know Wednesday. Anna
:51:22. > :51:25.Soubry said if there is no deal she was a meaningful vote. What, in your
:51:26. > :51:30.mind, do you think she means? I don't know what she means. You don't
:51:31. > :51:35.know what she means? Right. I think the government are very well seeing
:51:36. > :51:40.the need to involve Parliament. This is not a great point of contention.
:51:41. > :51:45.Right. On the subject of Diana, she holds an important subject on the
:51:46. > :51:49.front bench. If she fails to vote to trigger Article 50 in line with what
:51:50. > :51:53.Jeremy Corbyn has said, should she be sacked? That would be up to our
:51:54. > :51:58.leader. In your mind, should she be? I think Jeremy had to put a three
:51:59. > :52:03.line whip because that delivers position to be Labour supporters who
:52:04. > :52:09.voted to leave and don't want to see Labour wrecking this. Jeremy, being
:52:10. > :52:13.someone who was a rebel or his life, it's much more difficult for him to
:52:14. > :52:17.turn around and sack people. But should you, if they don't follow
:52:18. > :52:21.what the party line is particularly when there is a three line Whip?
:52:22. > :52:26.Whether Diana sacked or not, she still going to be one of those
:52:27. > :52:30.leading Labour people in the current administration. She will be someone
:52:31. > :52:37.who Jeremy will rely on a lot for advice will. Even if she loses her
:52:38. > :52:42.position as Shadow Home Secretary? Yes, I do think that. Diane has done
:52:43. > :52:51.herself a bit of disservice by having said clearly that she was a
:52:52. > :52:55.remain, and that she would be voting for Article 50. Then as not to turn
:52:56. > :52:59.up was a bit pointless, because it didn't achieve anything. I haven't
:53:00. > :53:03.spoken to Diane. Maybe she was so ill that she couldn't come. Although
:53:04. > :53:07.many people were seriously ill and made it. I think that's why she has
:53:08. > :53:13.done herself a disservice and it's up to her to get out of it. She
:53:14. > :53:13.should apologise for behaving rather stupidly. Diane, if you're
:53:14. > :53:16.listening! Now, it's official -
:53:17. > :53:18.diplomacy is dead. Nowadays 140 characters fired off
:53:19. > :53:20.in haste from a Twitter account Such behaviour used to be
:53:21. > :53:24.confined to backbench MPs. But now, of course, it's the modus
:53:25. > :53:26.operandi of the President Here's Jenny Kumah with the top five
:53:27. > :53:37.most undiplomatic tweets. At five, its Ukip's only MP,
:53:38. > :53:40.Douglas Carswell, with his smiley Tweeted after his party's
:53:41. > :53:45.leader, Nigel Farage, announced his resignation
:53:46. > :53:48.following the Brexit votr. A tweet of no words,
:53:49. > :53:51.but it said so much. In at number four, former Shadow
:53:52. > :53:57.Culture Secretary Michael Dugher uses his Twitter biography to hit
:53:58. > :54:01.back at the Labour leader. He tells followers that he was
:54:02. > :54:04.sacked by Jeremy Corbyn for "too much straight
:54:05. > :54:10.talking, honest politics." In and number three,
:54:11. > :54:12.it's former Labour MP Jamie Reed. He's leaving Parliament to take
:54:13. > :54:17.a big job in the nuclear industry. But back in October,
:54:18. > :54:30.he smugly tweeted... In at number two, Conservative MP
:54:31. > :54:34.Nicholas Soames has a go at ITV's At number one, it has
:54:35. > :54:47.to to be Donald Trump. There are so many to choose from,
:54:48. > :55:14.but here's just one example. Well, should we congratulate
:55:15. > :55:21.Nicholas Soames for making the top five? I don't find myself in very
:55:22. > :55:27.good company! Not us, obviously. Should President Trump give up
:55:28. > :55:31.Twitter? I think we will find retweets less, and yes, I think you
:55:32. > :55:36.should. You've got to get himself into even more trouble. -- he's
:55:37. > :55:40.going to get himself. The problem with Twitter is that you do think
:55:41. > :55:45.you will be sensible and do nothing in impulse, but you do. And I think
:55:46. > :55:50.that's the danger. It's a terrific way of communicating, although I
:55:51. > :55:57.think it does lead to some very nasty people around, who actually
:55:58. > :56:03.pick up you and have a real go. So, yes, he should stop using it. But he
:56:04. > :56:06.won't. Do you agree? I don't think the President of the United States
:56:07. > :56:10.should operate by Twitter, but that is the way he's going to operate. We
:56:11. > :56:13.all have to get used to the fact that we've never had to deal with a
:56:14. > :56:18.man like this before in our lives, any of us. He's entirely
:56:19. > :56:21.transactional. This is how he ran his businesses and this is how he
:56:22. > :56:25.will run the presidency. It is what it is. It's going to be very tough
:56:26. > :56:29.to keep a handle on it, but he is going to it to communicate over the
:56:30. > :56:34.top with the Washington establishment to his huge number of
:56:35. > :56:39.supporters in the country. Do you think that will catch on and that's
:56:40. > :56:42.what will happen, not Theresa May necessarily? With part of the
:56:43. > :56:46.problem of politicians. We talked earlier about getting into the
:56:47. > :56:51.bunker. The media don't get out of London enough. They don't actually
:56:52. > :56:54.talk to people who in the end of the people who, for example, on the
:56:55. > :56:57.referendum came out and voted who had never voted before. Those are
:56:58. > :57:02.the same people that Donald Trump got out to vote. Harry make one
:57:03. > :57:11.point? I think that's a very good point. Anthony Seldon made a report
:57:12. > :57:15.about how thoughtful Theresa May was and one of the things people like
:57:16. > :57:18.very much about the Prime Minister is that she does think it through.
:57:19. > :57:25.She obviously listens and thinks it through. This chap doesn't think it
:57:26. > :57:29.through. But it's a way of reaching his supporters. Do you self-centred?
:57:30. > :57:34.As Kate said, when you're in the zone of tweeting, have you lost
:57:35. > :57:37.sight? I have some important walls. I don't do it at night or when I've
:57:38. > :57:44.had a cocktail. And I'm reasonably careful about what I say. Reasonably
:57:45. > :57:51.careful? I like the idea! Trump has tweeted, I call my own shots largely
:57:52. > :57:56.based on an accumulation of data. Fake news media in order to
:57:57. > :58:01.marginalise - lies. So he's at it this morning and probably only just
:58:02. > :58:09.got up. He's not going to give up. He mind so much about any form of
:58:10. > :58:14.criticism. The crowds. Yeah. It's telling about Trump's character.
:58:15. > :58:17.What does it help? That he is a narcissist. He was upset. On that we
:58:18. > :58:17.will just There's just time before we go
:58:18. > :58:23.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, what is
:58:24. > :58:39.Marine Le Pen ditching? Any ideas? I know. You go first?
:58:40. > :58:46.It's her family name because they don't want to be associated with her
:58:47. > :58:52.father. She is known as just Marine. She fell out with her father. I
:58:53. > :58:54.would add the lot of them, except for the whole! That's it for today.
:58:55. > :58:57.The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:58. > :58:59.I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political
:59:00. > :59:02.stories of the day - do join me then.
:59:03. > :59:07.Gentlemen, do you have any prior motoring convictions?