:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.Members of the House of Lords debate the legislation that paves the way
:00:44. > :00:48.We'll assess whether peers have the numbers, and the stomach,
:00:49. > :00:54.The Chancellor is under pressure to soften changes to business rates
:00:55. > :00:56.in England as companies complain they're facing huge
:00:57. > :01:05.Ukip leader Paul Nuttall is under pressure after two Ukip officials
:01:06. > :01:07.in Merseyside resign from the party saying he showed "crass
:01:08. > :01:09.insensitivity" about the Hillsborough disaster.
:01:10. > :01:15.And should the National Trust be celebrating the gay
:01:16. > :01:20.Aren't there already enough right on charities out there,
:01:21. > :01:23.treating us like primary school children, telling us what to think
:01:24. > :01:36.about the politically correct matters of the moment?
:01:37. > :01:39.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:40. > :01:43.of the programme today is the Labour MP and former Home Secretary,
:01:44. > :01:47.Alan Johnson, and the Conservative MP for Wealden, Nusrat Ghani.
:01:48. > :01:49.First to the Brexit Bill which allows the government
:01:50. > :01:52.to trigger Article 50, the formal process for
:01:53. > :02:00.This week the House of Lords get their turn to debate
:02:01. > :02:02.the process, after MPs passed it without amendment
:02:03. > :02:07.But the bill is not expected to get an easy ride in the second chamber.
:02:08. > :02:10.The EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill will start its passage
:02:11. > :02:12.through the House of Lords today, with around 190 peers registered
:02:13. > :02:15.to speak on the two-day debate on the general principles
:02:16. > :02:22.It will then be sent for detailed scrutiny
:02:23. > :02:29.If the bill is not amended, then it could theoretically be
:02:30. > :02:32.approved by the Lords at Third Reading on 7th March,
:02:33. > :02:37.But two amendments seem to be gathering support
:02:38. > :02:40.amongst the Lords - one on the status of EU nationals
:02:41. > :02:42.currently living in the UK, and a second insisting Parliament
:02:43. > :02:49.gets a "meaningful" vote on any exit deal before it is agreed.
:02:50. > :02:52.If either of these amendments pass, then the bill is sent
:02:53. > :02:54.back to the Commons, which can vote to remove any
:02:55. > :02:58.amendments, before the whole process starts again.
:02:59. > :03:01.If that leads to an extended period when the bill ping-pongs
:03:02. > :03:03.between the two houses, that could delay the triggering
:03:04. > :03:05.of Article 50, something Prime Minister Theresa May has
:03:06. > :03:15.In the event of deadlock, the only way to force the bill
:03:16. > :03:18.through is by evoking the Parliament Act, but that can
:03:19. > :03:24.only be done after the whole process has been held up for a year.
:03:25. > :03:26.Yesterday, former Labour Business Secretary Lord Mandelson
:03:27. > :03:30.took to the airwaves to encourage his fellow members
:03:31. > :03:35.of the House of Lords to not give in too quickly.
:03:36. > :03:38.What we're saying is that what Parliament must agree
:03:39. > :03:41.is to say, look at the final deal, look at the outcome
:03:42. > :03:43.of the negotiations, and if it's not good for Britain,
:03:44. > :03:47.if it's potentially going to be a disaster for our economy,
:03:48. > :03:50.send the government back to the negotiating table.
:03:51. > :03:52.Do we then get a long period of ping-pong or does
:03:53. > :03:55.the House of Lords say, well, hold on a second,
:03:56. > :03:57.the referendum was clear, the Commons is clear,
:03:58. > :03:59.we are the unelected house, it's time to give up?
:04:00. > :04:02.At the end of the day the House of Commons must prevail
:04:03. > :04:10.But I hope the House of Lords will not throw in the towel early.
:04:11. > :04:14.We are joined now from the Lords lobby in Parliament
:04:15. > :04:17.by the Shadow Leader of the Lords, Baroness Angela Smith,
:04:18. > :04:19.and by the leader of the Liberal Democrats in the Lords,
:04:20. > :04:30.Welcome to both of you. Peter Mandelson said yesterday that the
:04:31. > :04:35.Lord should not throw in the towel too quickly, do you agree? We
:04:36. > :04:38.haven't even started the process yet and something you said at the
:04:39. > :04:43.beginning it we would delay the process, this is not a delayed. Us
:04:44. > :04:47.debating the issue, looking at amendment and possibly passing them
:04:48. > :04:50.is part of the process. While there were not any amendment in the House
:04:51. > :04:54.of Commons, there were changes made and the government gave guarantees
:04:55. > :04:57.on certain issues and I think those guarantees should be part of the
:04:58. > :05:03.bill and not just from a government say-so. We have seen with the child
:05:04. > :05:07.with issue, you can't always trust the government to say, we are going
:05:08. > :05:10.to do something, putting Parliamentary engagement and a
:05:11. > :05:13.meaningful vote on the face of the bill would be a sensible way forward
:05:14. > :05:17.and I'm hopeful, I would like the government to say, we have agreed to
:05:18. > :05:23.do that, let's put it on the bill and we proved we need to keep our
:05:24. > :05:25.word on it. If the amendments put forward on the meaningful
:05:26. > :05:31.Parliamentary vote to dump some time before a final deadline, and also on
:05:32. > :05:37.guarantees for EU nationals, if they were to fail in the Lords, would you
:05:38. > :05:41.vote against the bill? -- to come. No, we would do our best to get
:05:42. > :05:46.amendments, but it has been made very clear across the house from all
:05:47. > :05:52.sides that we're going to sabotage, block this bill but we do think it
:05:53. > :05:55.would be completely wrong, and constitutionally irresponsible for
:05:56. > :06:01.us just today to Theresa May, here it is, go of four two years and come
:06:02. > :06:04.back with a deal. They should be publicly engagement throughout the
:06:05. > :06:08.process. I am optimistic that the government should, because they have
:06:09. > :06:12.said they will put it on the face of the bill. Would you vote against the
:06:13. > :06:16.Brexit bill if those two amendment I mentioned failed? I don't do it will
:06:17. > :06:21.come of that, I think we will be successful in getting them through
:06:22. > :06:24.also and that is the role of the House of Lords, to ask the
:06:25. > :06:28.government and the Commons to think again if we think they have got it
:06:29. > :06:32.wrong. We clearly do think they have on these issues and I'm sure that
:06:33. > :06:37.the majority view in the House of Lords. So you think the numbers are
:06:38. > :06:39.there and the amendments will pass, on a meaningful Parliamentary vote
:06:40. > :06:43.at the end of the negotiations which would give Parliament the chance to
:06:44. > :06:45.say to the government, you have to go back and renegotiate because we
:06:46. > :06:52.don't think it's a good enough deal, and also on the guaranteed rights of
:06:53. > :06:55.EU citizens. If the Lord part of those amendments and the Commons
:06:56. > :07:02.rejects them, would you beat your heels in when it came back to the
:07:03. > :07:06.Lords? As Angela has said, the view of the Commons prevails and
:07:07. > :07:09.ping-pong, even when we have had it repeatedly which we did under the
:07:10. > :07:13.house arrest proposals under the Blair government, is a relatively
:07:14. > :07:19.quick procedure. How far the Lord will resist it, I'm not sure, but
:07:20. > :07:22.whatever they do, the government is under no threat whatsoever that this
:07:23. > :07:29.bill will not get through in plenty of time before the 31st of March. So
:07:30. > :07:32.even if you were to dig your heels in, you still think the timetable
:07:33. > :07:37.would be kept but you anticipate some form of ping-pong? I do
:07:38. > :07:42.anticipate some form, absolutely. Do you agree that it could go back
:07:43. > :07:46.several times? It is difficult to know or judge that yet but just
:07:47. > :07:49.sending something to the comment is part ping-pong. I have to say, the
:07:50. > :07:54.fact that the government had said this deadline for the of March and
:07:55. > :07:57.to rush the bill through, it was this government who spent three
:07:58. > :08:00.months in the court allowing judges to debate the issue at great expense
:08:01. > :08:04.when we could have spent that time in Parliament. I don't see any
:08:05. > :08:08.difficulty with the deadline having been set by the end of March but it
:08:09. > :08:12.has been a truncated process. We are likely to be here beyond midnight
:08:13. > :08:17.tonight and tomorrow night, possibly next week as well so we will do our
:08:18. > :08:21.job, we will not be forced into not properly debating this because of
:08:22. > :08:25.the government truncated timetable. You said you'd think those
:08:26. > :08:33.amendments will pass, otherwise you are happy to trigger Article 50?
:08:34. > :08:35.They are not the only amendments we will be pushing hard, there is an
:08:36. > :08:41.amendment to give the people of final say in a referendum when we
:08:42. > :08:46.know what the Brexit deal is and we will work very hard across the House
:08:47. > :08:49.of Lords to do that. There are other amendments around reporting and
:08:50. > :08:53.various other issues which we support as well. Those two that you
:08:54. > :08:56.mentioned are ones where the government is clearly vulnerable but
:08:57. > :09:02.I would not are the are the only ones. Do you agree they would be
:09:03. > :09:07.vulnerable on a second referendum at the end of the process? I don't
:09:08. > :09:12.think it is likely to pass, we will wait and see. Who knows what will
:09:13. > :09:16.happen in the next two years? The important thing at the moment is to
:09:17. > :09:19.get a process going by which there is Parliamentary engagement. If
:09:20. > :09:25.there is to be a meaningful vote... What does that mean for you? That we
:09:26. > :09:28.vote before the European Parliament votes and we have the information
:09:29. > :09:33.throughout the process but if the deal is not a good one or it is
:09:34. > :09:38.looking and unsatisfactory position for the UK, that will be something
:09:39. > :09:41.that becomes evident over some period of time and that is why the
:09:42. > :09:45.parliament engagement is so important. What do you want for the
:09:46. > :09:52.government to write on the face of the bill? So you could keep going
:09:53. > :09:58.back to the drawing board? You can't keep going back, you would have to
:09:59. > :10:04.ask the other European countries to extend the time all 27 of them. The
:10:05. > :10:07.key to this throughout the process the government should be engaging
:10:08. > :10:11.with Parliament and using the expertise from Parliament to try to
:10:12. > :10:15.get the best deal possible. It would be pretty drastic if, at the end of
:10:16. > :10:19.two years, the government and parliament was saying this is too
:10:20. > :10:25.awful. The key is to have engagement to get the best deal. Do you
:10:26. > :10:29.understand those who say that the Lords should not have any role in
:10:30. > :10:34.terms of holding up what they see as the will of the people? I understand
:10:35. > :10:39.that view but as we both said, we are not hold it up, there is a big
:10:40. > :10:43.distinction between amending bill under normal timetable and holding
:10:44. > :10:47.it up. We are going to be amending the bill. If the House of Lords
:10:48. > :10:52.cannot ask the to think again it might as well pack up its bags go
:10:53. > :11:00.home. Without being rude, you can do that for the moment! Not until
:11:01. > :11:05.midnight! Do you have sympathy on their dues, White shouldn't the
:11:06. > :11:10.Lords and ladies scrutinise this bill and amend it? -- why shouldn't.
:11:11. > :11:14.It is their right to sue but the amendments they spoke about, about
:11:15. > :11:19.EU citizens, assurances have been given by the Prime Minister and the
:11:20. > :11:23.Minister, these will be prioritised in negotiating the best possible
:11:24. > :11:28.deal. It could take two years. But you also heard from the Liberal
:11:29. > :11:32.leader that they would like to negotiate for as long as it takes to
:11:33. > :11:34.get the best deal possible and then have a number of referendum until
:11:35. > :11:39.the Lib Dems are happy with whatever outcome they think best suits the
:11:40. > :11:43.country. The country has decided and we have an extensive debate in the
:11:44. > :11:46.House of Commons and it has passed with an overall majority to enable
:11:47. > :11:51.us to trigger Article 50 and begin these negotiations and to see what
:11:52. > :11:55.kind of deal we can get. In a way, they are at least trying to
:11:56. > :11:57.scrutinise and amend the bill in the way the opposition failed to do in
:11:58. > :12:03.the Commons, there was a blank cheque given to the government. We
:12:04. > :12:06.did try. Of course we tried. It is interesting that they picked out
:12:07. > :12:12.these two issues because I think these were the issues, I said it on
:12:13. > :12:14.the date the bill was published, I expected a coalition across party
:12:15. > :12:18.lines. People have been living and working here and made their homes
:12:19. > :12:21.here and they should not be used as a bargaining chip in this. I hope
:12:22. > :12:25.the government thinks again about that and the other issue, can EU
:12:26. > :12:31.countries say, yes of course British National in our country will be
:12:32. > :12:35.entitled to stay? We will be a non-EU country and the policy of all
:12:36. > :12:38.EU countries is that non-EU countries are decided by each
:12:39. > :12:43.country so how can they collectively make that decision? The best thing
:12:44. > :12:47.to do is to take the moral high ground and say, that is what we are
:12:48. > :12:51.doing with your citizens, and to start the negotiations on I think
:12:52. > :12:55.that fruitful and positive line. What do you make of the intervention
:12:56. > :12:59.from Peter Mandelson, encouraging his colleagues in the House of Lords
:13:00. > :13:04.not to throw the towel into early? He is right, it is common sense.
:13:05. > :13:07.These two amendments are the important ones. There are views on
:13:08. > :13:12.all sides of a house about them and of course it is the job of the
:13:13. > :13:16.Lords. I think they should be elected but I agree there should be
:13:17. > :13:20.a second chamber and its job is to scrutinise. That is what they are
:13:21. > :13:24.doing. Do you think there will be a backlash against the Lords? How
:13:25. > :13:28.would you feel if they hold it up? We will have to see what happened in
:13:29. > :13:32.the debate but fundamentally we have to reflect the will of the people
:13:33. > :13:35.and the democratically elected parliamentarians have had a huge
:13:36. > :13:39.amount of debate, beyond the two weeks we have debated the issue, and
:13:40. > :13:42.the House of Lords needs to reflect on how it should scrutinise. I have
:13:43. > :13:47.confidence they will do the right thing. Otherwise? They have to
:13:48. > :13:53.evaluate what they are there to do. There will be ping-pong but this is
:13:54. > :13:58.the term for sending it back and forth, but it will be once or twice.
:13:59. > :14:05.And you heard it from the two leaders, there is a large tranche of
:14:06. > :14:08.crossbenchers but the mood in the House of Lords is that they will not
:14:09. > :14:12.hold it up. Also because the mood in the country if they do not want this
:14:13. > :14:16.held up. Over 62% of people want us to crack on and for article 50 to be
:14:17. > :14:22.triggered. And will be MPs continue to vote for this if there is
:14:23. > :14:25.ping-pong? Labour and others. I was disappointed that the Conservatives,
:14:26. > :14:30.a few rebels but they kept their heads down. This is a good way to
:14:31. > :14:34.start and I hope they think again. If the Lords makes this decision.
:14:35. > :14:39.But in the end, I confidently predict that on March the 7th this
:14:40. > :14:42.will go through. And in terms of the amendments, should the government
:14:43. > :14:46.just accept those two? They have already said that they will
:14:47. > :14:49.prioritise ensuring the security of EU citizens in this country but we
:14:50. > :14:53.need the same for British citizens overseas as well, we have to make
:14:54. > :15:03.sure they are also feeling secure. What about a unilateral... This is
:15:04. > :15:09.the negotiations that will begin. Why not have that stance before the
:15:10. > :15:13.negotiations start? We also need to ensure that our British citizens in
:15:14. > :15:17.Europe have the same security. So they are a bargaining chip? These
:15:18. > :15:22.are negotiations, they will begin when the trigger article 50. That
:15:23. > :15:25.talk about Tony Blair because not everybody welcomed his intervention.
:15:26. > :15:30.Was it a case of the right message and the wrong messenger?
:15:31. > :15:36.The message Tony Blair was putting forward was it is right to trigger
:15:37. > :15:42.Article 50, the will of the people must prevail was his opening remark.
:15:43. > :15:47.It is very much my view as well. As this moves on, you'll see, there'll
:15:48. > :15:53.come a time when the British people will have a choice between leaving
:15:54. > :15:58.the European Union and on the terms of the negotiation if that's
:15:59. > :16:01.presented, we've been assured in Parliament by David Davis, Theresa
:16:02. > :16:06.May, Liam Fox that they can negotiate terms that will not be
:16:07. > :16:09.detrimental at all to Britain. We'll have the same, there's numerous
:16:10. > :16:17.quotes about this. And you believe that? They've said it to Parliament.
:16:18. > :16:24.Tony Blair also said and implied and hinted heavily, Labour didn't oppose
:16:25. > :16:30.a process that he felt shouldn't have gone ahead at all. That
:16:31. > :16:35.provoked him making the speech he Z That's a misreading of his speech.
:16:36. > :16:41.His opening remarks were the will of the people must prevail. He did go
:16:42. > :16:46.on about the Labour Party? Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair's views are
:16:47. > :16:51.particular. Jeremy Corbyn said his intervention wasn't helpful? It was.
:16:52. > :16:56.Not least of all because Tony mentioned the fact it must be up to
:16:57. > :17:01.Europe to reform as well. If, at the end of this package, Europe's still
:17:02. > :17:06.the same rules on free movement, people will choose whatever the
:17:07. > :17:11.alternative is to staying in the EU. There's been a rethink in Europe
:17:12. > :17:15.about these things. Do you think, is that what you're relying on? They'll
:17:16. > :17:19.have a rethink on benefits? That campaign changed from the day the
:17:20. > :17:24.Office of National Statistics recorded net migration at its
:17:25. > :17:30.biggest ever level. Much enbiger than after 2004 when the accession
:17:31. > :17:34.countries came in. A record of 333,000. You could feel the
:17:35. > :17:38.arguments. But Labour have to take response ebb I will for not having
:17:39. > :17:43.transitional arrangements from the start? 333,000 is high are than
:17:44. > :17:48.after 2004. You're saying the number's all right? After six years
:17:49. > :17:49.of Government, Theresa May said we'd get it down to the tens of
:17:50. > :17:50.thousands. And you'll be able to watch
:17:51. > :17:53.all of the Lords debate on Article The question for today is:
:17:54. > :18:01.which group does Microsoft founder Bill Gates think should be
:18:02. > :18:05.taxed in future? a) Schoolchildren, b) Robots,
:18:06. > :18:12.c) Pets or d) Graffiti artists? Alan and Nusrat will
:18:13. > :18:20.give us the correct answer. And you you can't confer! Of course
:18:21. > :18:24.you can! Business rates are taxes paid
:18:25. > :18:25.on non-residential property, So far, so uncontroversial,
:18:26. > :18:29.except in England the government has decided to change the way the tax
:18:30. > :18:34.is calculated and the resulting revaluation - the first since 2010 -
:18:35. > :18:38.has resulted in quite substantial increases - and decreases -
:18:39. > :18:42.in the amounts companies Among the organisations which have
:18:43. > :18:47.been expressing concerns is the Federation of Small
:18:48. > :18:49.Businesses. Their spokesman is Alan Soady
:18:50. > :19:01.and he's here to speak to us. Welcome, according to the Treasury
:19:02. > :19:05.minister responsible for this, you're scaremongering? We need to
:19:06. > :19:07.look at the reality of the Government's figures on this. About
:19:08. > :19:11.one in four businesses under the Government's figures will be seeing
:19:12. > :19:17.an increase in their business rate as a result of this re-evaluation.
:19:18. > :19:22.That's about in excess of half a million firms around the country. It
:19:23. > :19:27.is true to say that there are going to be winners as well as losers in
:19:28. > :19:30.this re-evaluation. Three in four firms either will see their rates
:19:31. > :19:36.not really changing very much or will see them going down. There are
:19:37. > :19:39.more winners than losers? On the Government's figures, it's true. The
:19:40. > :19:44.problem is within the significant minority that are seeing their rates
:19:45. > :19:48.going up, as the bills are now landing on doormats, we are seeing
:19:49. > :19:54.some real anomalies of this business rate systems. Some smaller business
:19:55. > :19:58.in the areas where property values have disproportionately gone up in
:19:59. > :20:01.recent years, they're seeing astronomical increases. But this is
:20:02. > :20:05.a re-evaluation. That is what happens. There are winners and
:20:06. > :20:11.losers. Up for some, down for most, it seems. So, it's just what
:20:12. > :20:14.happens? The problem is just that it is so, so disproportionate. We've
:20:15. > :20:20.talked to the Government for a long time about this. Going back to last
:20:21. > :20:26.year's budget when George Osborne was Chancellor, there was a
:20:27. > :20:30.concession which took hundreds of thousands of the smallest firms out
:20:31. > :20:34.of the system. That's how there are so many not affected by all of this.
:20:35. > :20:39.For those that are, this is all based on a system that decides how
:20:40. > :20:43.much someone has to pay in their business taxes based upon an art
:20:44. > :20:47.trinotional value of the rentable value of their property. We've
:20:48. > :20:53.examples of even where someone's rent may have gone up about 25%, yet
:20:54. > :20:59.the rantable value, according to the officials for business rates say
:21:00. > :21:04.perhaps it is in the region of 60% or 70%. The bottom line is it does
:21:05. > :21:08.mean there is a danger, I know this from some members of the Federation
:21:09. > :21:12.of Small Businesses who I've spoken to personally, there are some who
:21:13. > :21:16.genuinely are thinking they may have to close their business inmaterial
:21:17. > :21:22.or go online and close down their shop. Not just shops. There's been a
:21:23. > :21:28.focus on high treats about B, pub, manufacturing firms affected by
:21:29. > :21:32.this too. If you're hear that can anecdotally, do you get any sense
:21:33. > :21:36.Philip ham and will soften the blow? In the longer term, there is a need
:21:37. > :21:42.for radical reform around business rates. The whole system is quite
:21:43. > :21:46.out-Taited. Doesn't take into account online businesses. For the
:21:47. > :21:52.here and now, we've the budget coming up next month. Philip Hammond
:21:53. > :21:56.has the opportunity to do something. One, welt' do some survey work this
:21:57. > :22:02.week with our members, now they're getting their bills through the
:22:03. > :22:06.door, we can try to build up a more accurate picture of the affect, how
:22:07. > :22:12.many people are affected by what proportion. We'll pass those results
:22:13. > :22:16.to the Governments. Where there are pockets of the country, London is
:22:17. > :22:21.particularly badly affected but not just a London thing. We hope there
:22:22. > :22:25.could be relief put in place for people seeing astronomical
:22:26. > :22:30.increases. Should that relief be put forward? Depending on the outcome.
:22:31. > :22:36.There will be winners and losers. I have a number of small businesses in
:22:37. > :22:40.my constituency who are alarmed by what they're reading in the press.
:22:41. > :22:46.We have a reduction of 2.5%. We're lucky. If there is a business within
:22:47. > :22:51.my constituency, they'll see a sharper rise than expected that
:22:52. > :22:57.support is available. If there are business rate rises of 11 or 12%, in
:22:58. > :23:02.Philip Philip own constituency, and Theresa May's, how can businesses
:23:03. > :23:06.afford that? We don't know that. The rates are coming through in two or
:23:07. > :23:12.three weeks. That's what has been reported. Three quarters of the
:23:13. > :23:16.businesses won't see a raise. 6,000 businesses will see complete rate
:23:17. > :23:20.relief. There are winners and losers across the whole spectrum. If there
:23:21. > :23:23.are tweets which need to be made, I hope we can have that conversation
:23:24. > :23:27.with the right department and Chancellor. Some of these areas are
:23:28. > :23:32.seeing a starker increase than expected. That's the point, winners
:23:33. > :23:39.and losers. Areas like yours will probably be fine? City of Culture
:23:40. > :23:44.will see rates go down. It is London and some of the wealthier areas that
:23:45. > :23:49.will be hit? I've sympathy with the Government on this. Re-evaluation of
:23:50. > :23:53.rates is never a happy event. I was in Government when we did it. The
:23:54. > :23:59.mistake this Government made, they put it off ahead of the 2015...
:24:00. > :24:05.We're having a root and branch look at how this works. They haven't had
:24:06. > :24:10.it. What you're getting now is the result of that, both delaying it to
:24:11. > :24:14.the extent you've County Council elections this year. Many people are
:24:15. > :24:20.worried about the effect there. No, we need to have that root and branch
:24:21. > :24:23.effect. How long would that take? The issue is, local authorities
:24:24. > :24:27.don't set the business rates. Government does. Look at
:24:28. > :24:32.authorities, at the moment, can draw down 50% of it. A recent
:24:33. > :24:38.development, to fund local services. From 2020, they will be able to keep
:24:39. > :24:42.100%. In places like Hull, we want to make sure the system has been
:24:43. > :24:50.reformed before we take 100%. Obviously. Exactly. Which is why
:24:51. > :24:55.that root and branch reform has to take place. When should that happen
:24:56. > :25:01.or not at all? Let's see what happens in the next couple of weeks
:25:02. > :25:03.when these bills come through and conversations will happen between
:25:04. > :25:10.appropriate ministers and the Chancellor. In Wealdon we're lucky,
:25:11. > :25:13.we'll have generally, a minus 2.5%. There will always be winners and
:25:14. > :25:19.losers. There's still a fund available. But if the losers were in
:25:20. > :25:24.your constituency, would you be as happy as you seem to be? It is not
:25:25. > :25:30.about being happy. I have to make sure all of my kiss are doing well.
:25:31. > :25:34.If it's a company which employs a lot of people in the centre of town,
:25:35. > :25:42.they get a higher business rate than someone like Amazon or something who
:25:43. > :25:48.does all their businesses online. Online businesses are not being hit?
:25:49. > :25:52.This is an issue. How to keep high streets thriving. We need to keep
:25:53. > :25:57.people shopping out and about. Less online. That's not going to be
:25:58. > :26:03.comfort for those businesses which go bust. Some will just shut up shop
:26:04. > :26:07.now. We don't know yet. There is another issue when you're trying to
:26:08. > :26:11.represent the concerns of your businesses and constituents, where
:26:12. > :26:16.they come across media which occasionally overextends what is
:26:17. > :26:20.going to happen. You agree with ministerial colleagues that fake
:26:21. > :26:25.news is in existence? Not at all. We have to wait to see what happens to
:26:26. > :26:32.these businesses. There is a fund available for those struggling. And
:26:33. > :26:38.you can still appeal. These changes happen every seventh year. Are you
:26:39. > :26:43.worried it might cost you seats in London and the south-east if people
:26:44. > :26:45.are badly hit? We'll have to wait and see and communicate any issues
:26:46. > :26:47.to the Chancellor. Two Ukip officials have
:26:48. > :26:50.resigned from the party over the row about the 1989
:26:51. > :26:52.Hillsborough disaster. Last week, the Ukip leader and Stoke
:26:53. > :26:55.by-election candidate Paul Nuttall had to apologise after his website
:26:56. > :26:58.falsely stated that he had lost Mr Nuttall pinned the blame
:26:59. > :27:05.on a member of his staff saying The Ukip donor Arron Banks
:27:06. > :27:10.decided to get involved - tweeting that he was "sick to death"
:27:11. > :27:14.of hearing about Hillsborough. Our political correspondent
:27:15. > :27:26.Tom Bateman has the latest. Give us the latest details? What
:27:27. > :27:31.happened after this controversy which happened while Mr Knuttal was
:27:32. > :27:38.a candidate in the stoke by-election and a raft of criticism for Mr Banks
:27:39. > :27:42.over the comments he made on Twitter was two regional officials for Ukip
:27:43. > :27:52.in Liverpool and Merseyside said they were going to resign because of
:27:53. > :27:59.all this. They are Stuart Monkham and Adam heath rings ton, the chair
:28:00. > :28:02.in Merseyside. They cited the unprofessional and crass
:28:03. > :28:06.insensitivity of the comment and handling of those figures and of Mr
:28:07. > :28:10.Knuttal in particular, the handling of the events about what had
:28:11. > :28:16.happened on his website. Having to apologise for that false claim on
:28:17. > :28:22.it. Potentially why this is so damaging is Mr Knuttal had said all
:28:23. > :28:26.of this was a smear by Ukip's political opponents, people wishing
:28:27. > :28:32.to do them ill. Particularly with by-elections upcoming. Yet, here we
:28:33. > :28:36.have two people from Mr Knuttal's home turf resigning. Ukip, this
:28:37. > :28:40.afternoon, are trying to play this down at a national level saying
:28:41. > :28:45.think understand the pressures put locally on those two officials. They
:28:46. > :28:49.say they don't blame them for resigning. There will be more
:28:50. > :28:53.resignations following this? Certainly one Ukip source on
:28:54. > :28:56.Merseyside suggested to us that there could be more resignations
:28:57. > :28:59.that follow. Certainly you might expect if the chairman of a branch
:29:00. > :29:05.had gone that others may follow in their wake. Of course, we'll have to
:29:06. > :29:09.wait and see. The wider question here is about Ukip's leadership,
:29:10. > :29:13.particularly after the summer where they appeared to lunch from one
:29:14. > :29:20.crisis to the next but appeared to get on to a stead year footing with
:29:21. > :29:23.the election of Paul Nuttall. A lot will depend what happens locally.
:29:24. > :29:28.We'll have by-elections later this week. Many people will read much
:29:29. > :29:32.into the fortunes of all split cat parties as we see the results of
:29:33. > :29:38.those. An interesting few days. It will no doubt have an impact on Mr
:29:39. > :29:43.Nuttall's campaign in Stoke? That's the big question. That campaign
:29:44. > :29:47.continues. We're a few days away from Stoke-on-Trent. But also, there
:29:48. > :29:51.is a by-election in Copeland where Ukip are standing as well. This is
:29:52. > :29:55.not just a particular issue about his cand Si there but Ukip's
:29:56. > :29:57.fortunes elsewhere in the country. Not just in a by-election. Thank you
:29:58. > :29:59.very much. Paul Nuttall is, of course, standing
:30:00. > :30:02.in this week's by-election in Stoke, where Labour are defending
:30:03. > :30:05.a 5,000 majority over Ukip. Adam Fleming reports now
:30:06. > :30:19.from the campaign trail. I caught up with the Ukip lead and
:30:20. > :30:24.that ended in Stoke-on-Trent Central before he found himself on the ropes
:30:25. > :30:27.with his party over claims he made about the Hillsborough disaster.
:30:28. > :30:30.Unfortunately I think many feel that they've been left behind
:30:31. > :30:34.I think what they need is a national voice,
:30:35. > :30:36.someone who can stand up in the House of Commons and be
:30:37. > :30:39.listened to, and I believe I'm that man to put Stoke-on-Trent
:30:40. > :30:42.To make Ukip look opportunistic, the Labour candidate says
:30:43. > :30:47.I live just outside the city in a pit village called Silverdale.
:30:48. > :30:49.I've been here for 13 years, it's where my family are,
:30:50. > :30:52.it's where my daughter was born, and I consider myself
:30:53. > :30:56.Although he's had problems too, apologising for tweets deemed to be
:30:57. > :31:01.rude, sexist and insulting to supporters of Brexit.
:31:02. > :31:04.Sarah Olney of the Lib Dems won the last by-election in this
:31:05. > :31:07.Parliament and she spoke to us while their candidate was at work,
:31:08. > :31:12.Well, his major issue is just standing up for the NHS.
:31:13. > :31:14.We're not hearing that from the Tories, they want
:31:15. > :31:18.We know that the NHS has been in crisis,
:31:19. > :31:21.particularly over the winter, and we just feel Labour are not
:31:22. > :31:24.providing the opposition they need to be providing to this
:31:25. > :31:28.While the Tories and the Greens are focusing on the economy.
:31:29. > :31:32.One of my key priorities is to create more opportunities
:31:33. > :31:34.for Stoke, more jobs, and not just more jobs, better jobs,
:31:35. > :31:38.better skilled jobs, better paid jobs for local people.
:31:39. > :31:40.The Green Party's campaign is about insecure employment,
:31:41. > :31:46.we want to get people better jobs in the area, and also
:31:47. > :31:50.The city, which is really more like a handful of villages joined
:31:51. > :31:52.together, has been rock-solid safe for Labour for much of the last
:31:53. > :31:55.century but has become increasingly less so over recent decades.
:31:56. > :31:58.A big majority voted to leave the EU which is why Ukip
:31:59. > :32:02.This is also the home to the inventor of posh pots,
:32:03. > :32:05.Josiah Wedgwood and, much more my style, Robbie Williams.
:32:06. > :32:14.I don't know the answer to that, I know the tune in my head
:32:15. > :32:17.but I don't know the words, I'm afraid.
:32:18. > :32:38.And then I go and spoil it all by saying something stupid...
:32:39. > :32:56.If there's somebody calling me on, she's the one.
:32:57. > :33:08.I almost feel sorry for the candidates!
:33:09. > :33:12.And a full list of all the candidates standing
:33:13. > :33:14.in the Stoke Central by-election is on your screens now,
:33:15. > :33:20.and can be found on our website at bbc.co.uk/politics.
:33:21. > :33:22.The Stoke Central by-election is not the only big event
:33:23. > :33:26.As we have just discussed, the Article 50 debate kicks off
:33:27. > :33:29.in the Lords today and will continue over the next two weeks.
:33:30. > :33:31.Later today, the Commons will discuss two online petitions
:33:32. > :33:38.One opposing it with nearly 1.9 million names.
:33:39. > :33:40.And another supporting it with around a third
:33:41. > :33:46.On Tuesday, the Women and Equalities Committee
:33:47. > :33:49.publishes its latest report on the Gender Pay Gap.
:33:50. > :33:53.On Wednesday, of course, it's Prime Minister's Questions,
:33:54. > :33:56.which you can watch live here on the Daily Politics.
:33:57. > :34:00.Thursday sees Jeremy Corbyn defending two Labour seats
:34:01. > :34:03.in by-elections in Stoke Central and Copeland in Cumbria.
:34:04. > :34:07.Friday sees the start of the Scottish Labour Conference
:34:08. > :34:09.in the 'Fair City' of Perth, the party's first since its drubbing
:34:10. > :34:16.And, to discuss the political week ahead, we've been joined
:34:17. > :34:18.by Lucy Fisher from the Times, and Torcuil Crichton
:34:19. > :34:29.Welcome to both of you. Have the lordships got the nerve for a fight
:34:30. > :34:33.or will they just see this through? I think there is the nerve for a
:34:34. > :34:37.fight. It is so tempting for the Lords to do that because the
:34:38. > :34:41.Conservatives don't have a majority in the upper chamber as they do in
:34:42. > :34:46.the Commons so my understanding that the two big amendments to watch out
:34:47. > :34:49.for are about assuring the right of EU nationals to stay in the UK and
:34:50. > :34:53.secondly about Parliament getting a meaningful vote on the Brexit deal
:34:54. > :34:58.that is finally negotiated. It looks likely that if about a dozen Tory
:34:59. > :35:01.peers abstain and other opposition peers join forces, they could pass
:35:02. > :35:07.bows and send them back to the Commons. We have heard from two
:35:08. > :35:12.peers, both of whom have pledged to push this through even if they get
:35:13. > :35:19.those amendments within the timetable set by Theresa May. Do you
:35:20. > :35:24.believe them? I do, it is getting a bit like the Star Wars saga, we are
:35:25. > :35:29.on episode two and it might have a slightly different ending in that
:35:30. > :35:36.the Lords might well ping the amendments that Lucy outlined, that
:35:37. > :35:41.might go back to the Commons but then it will go right back up to the
:35:42. > :35:45.Lords again. And I think the Lords, while they might make eloquent
:35:46. > :35:49.speeches and keep us up late tonight and tomorrow, I think they have a
:35:50. > :35:52.sense of self-preservation and I don't think they will defy the
:35:53. > :35:58.government or indeed the result of the referendum. 190 apparently have
:35:59. > :36:03.signed up to speak and it will be a long process. Is that what will stop
:36:04. > :36:07.them holding it up, the threat of abolition? I think that's right. We
:36:08. > :36:12.have heard government sources warning them not to play God. David
:36:13. > :36:19.Davis seem too tried to dial the rhetoric down and called on peers to
:36:20. > :36:25.do their patriotic duty and let the bill passed before the deadline that
:36:26. > :36:29.Theresa May has pledged. It is clear that if they do try to hold it up
:36:30. > :36:34.and block the democratic will of the people, as many MPs are saying and
:36:35. > :36:40.Brexiteers are saying, I think they will fall down on their own heads a
:36:41. > :36:43.huge debate about their future. Let's talk about the by-elections in
:36:44. > :36:48.Cumbria and Stoke. How big is the threat to Jeremy Corbyn if Labour
:36:49. > :36:53.loses them? We have a range of possibilities, he could win both, he
:36:54. > :36:58.could lose both or lose one or the other. I think in Copeland they will
:36:59. > :37:04.find it difficult to hold on because of Corbyn being seen as being
:37:05. > :37:07.antinuclear and anti-Trident and they are built just up the road in
:37:08. > :37:13.Barrow-in-Furness. If identity politics is coming to the fore, then
:37:14. > :37:21.this feeling of Patrick is and wanting your readers to be with you
:37:22. > :37:29.is what you want -- patridge is -- patriotism. And in Stoke, where Ukip
:37:30. > :37:33.appear to be imploding, the Tories have sent the Prime Minister up so
:37:34. > :37:37.they are obviously sensing something is changing but I think Theresa May
:37:38. > :37:42.being that might split the vote and allow Jeremy Corbyn and Labour to
:37:43. > :37:50.come through the middle. Plenty to chew over. If their talk about
:37:51. > :37:56.left-wing replacements being lined up to come in behind Jeremy Corbyn
:37:57. > :37:59.if there is one or two losses? There are those conversations going on
:38:00. > :38:04.behind closed doors in Westminster but we have to be aware of the fact
:38:05. > :38:08.that Jeremy Corbyn has shown himself throughout his time as leader, he
:38:09. > :38:12.does not bow to political pressure, he did not bow to over 170
:38:13. > :38:17.colleagues voting for much of no confidence in him. I think there
:38:18. > :38:21.could be interest from some quarters for a handover, a key technicality
:38:22. > :38:25.is that they will not make that move until it is assured that a left-wing
:38:26. > :38:30.candidate will get into the contest and at the moment, such a candidate
:38:31. > :38:34.would need 15%, around 35 Labour MPs, to nominate them and I think we
:38:35. > :38:38.will hear more about the rule change on that in the coming year but until
:38:39. > :38:44.then Jeremy Corbyn will sit tight. Let's talk about Scottish Labour and
:38:45. > :38:51.the conference in Perth. Will the atmosphere be somewhere between Wake
:38:52. > :38:59.and a rare breed's convention? It depends on the result! The theme
:39:00. > :39:02.ironically, will be a second referendum, not a second EU
:39:03. > :39:06.referendum but a second Scottish referendum. It is such a Tabuk in
:39:07. > :39:16.the UK on running the second referendum on the EU. -- taboo. It
:39:17. > :39:22.is boiling up in Scotland and the SNP conference, but the theme of
:39:23. > :39:26.labour will be together we are stronger, putting the tin lid on the
:39:27. > :39:32.idea that Labour might want a second referendum and career don't go --
:39:33. > :39:37.Kezia Dugdale will be talking about federalism in the UK. This is the
:39:38. > :39:41.Scottish Labour Party having federalised itself and broken away
:39:42. > :39:47.and is almost now a stand-alone party within the UK and it is now
:39:48. > :39:52.advocating federalism for the whole of the UK and they see that as their
:39:53. > :39:57.solution to nationalism. For a party that has gone from total dominance
:39:58. > :40:02.to a 19% share of the vote, is there any way back? You would say the only
:40:03. > :40:07.way is up and the only way back is policy and leadership. They feel
:40:08. > :40:12.incumbent with Corbyn at the UK leader that he is a track that in
:40:13. > :40:16.the polls, nationally and in Scotland. Interesting that he is
:40:17. > :40:21.speaking on Sunday at the tail end of the conference Werros you have
:40:22. > :40:26.Sadiq Khan, a popular, winning Labour politician, speaking on the
:40:27. > :40:30.Saturday -- whereas you have. And Tom Watson on the Saturday as well,
:40:31. > :40:35.they are the main act and Corbyn brings down the curtain on a late
:40:36. > :40:40.Sunday afternoon. Thank you for being the main act here, enjoy
:40:41. > :40:50.listening to the Lords. If you have a debate on Wednesday on social care
:40:51. > :40:54.funding. It is related to the business rate argument in the sense
:40:55. > :40:58.that government is evolving business rates and it is also deciding to pay
:40:59. > :41:04.for this crisis in adult social care, and it is crisis, by giving
:41:05. > :41:10.councils the right to judge precept. All of them will do that, but you
:41:11. > :41:12.only get the money for adult social care in places where they have low
:41:13. > :41:23.levels of need and high-value housing. Kingston-upon-Hull will get
:41:24. > :41:27.just over ?8 per person on that and Kingston upon Thames will get just
:41:28. > :41:32.over ?15. It will be handy in both areas but it nowhere plugs the need
:41:33. > :41:36.in areas with a high level of demand of people who need someone coming
:41:37. > :41:40.round to assist them. As the government underestimated the
:41:41. > :41:46.current crisis in social care and in fact demand in A in the NHS?
:41:47. > :41:50.Social care is a huge issue, in East Sussex we have the most 85-year-old
:41:51. > :41:53.in the country and I also chair the all-party group for ageing and all
:41:54. > :41:56.the people and how we do not just finance social care, that is a
:41:57. > :42:03.conversation that needs to be had... Should more money be put in? It is
:42:04. > :42:07.not just about more money, all the servers would be better but it is
:42:08. > :42:11.not just about that. Buick you accept it would be easier? It is
:42:12. > :42:15.also about making sure it is available in the right places. A lot
:42:16. > :42:19.of my councils are struggling to deliver the care and there are other
:42:20. > :42:23.issues around just financing, you are looking at model of social care
:42:24. > :42:27.and having a conversation on how to do it better. More people are living
:42:28. > :42:32.by themselves and longer and with multiple health issues and how we
:42:33. > :42:36.manage that. That is right but of course the King 's fund, Oxford
:42:37. > :42:40.University, aged UK, everybody who has looked at this says it is
:42:41. > :42:43.funding which is the major problem. Of course those other things are
:42:44. > :42:46.important but if you don't get the funding right, this will be a
:42:47. > :42:52.growing problem. How much would you put in? There is a gap of around ?6
:42:53. > :42:57.billion at the moment is what is needed and what is there. In terms
:42:58. > :43:01.of how you... What the government are doing, they are saying it is
:43:02. > :43:05.responsibility of local government and I think that is passing the
:43:06. > :43:08.buck. There needs to be a national solution, not a postcode lottery,
:43:09. > :43:14.but the debate on Wednesday is about the short-term and how councils get
:43:15. > :43:15.through without collapsing on social care. That is the end of our week
:43:16. > :43:17.ahead. MPs are due to debate US
:43:18. > :43:20.President Donald Trump's state visit to the UK later today after two
:43:21. > :43:23.petitions - one in favour, one against - got more than enough
:43:24. > :43:25.signatures to meet the threshold But at 4.30pm this afternoon,
:43:26. > :43:29.while MPs are having their say, a series of protests will be held
:43:30. > :43:32.across the country to And it's sure to be as vocal
:43:33. > :43:37.in the house as outside if these earlier exchanges are
:43:38. > :43:41.anything to go by... THE SPEAKER: An address by a foreign
:43:42. > :43:46.leader to both Houses of Parliament is not an automatic right,
:43:47. > :43:52.it is an earned honour. This certainly shouldn't
:43:53. > :43:57.be extended, any invitation to this House,
:43:58. > :44:04.to such a person as Donald Trump. The Queen has issued
:44:05. > :44:06.an invitation to Mr Trump He's the President
:44:07. > :44:09.of the free world. If we can entertain the President
:44:10. > :44:12.of China, we can entertain him. And we're joined from outside
:44:13. > :44:15.Parliament by the anti-Trump campaigner Dorothy Guerrero,
:44:16. > :44:27.and by Kate Andrews from Why shouldn't the democratically
:44:28. > :44:35.elected president of the United States visit the UK? I think that
:44:36. > :44:40.the group, stop coalition, or call for him not to be invited is
:44:41. > :44:43.supported by post to 2 million people who disagree with his
:44:44. > :44:48.politics and it is important to consider that although there is a
:44:49. > :44:53.strategic and historical relationship between the US and the
:44:54. > :44:58.UK, the current president of the most powerful country on the planet
:44:59. > :45:03.is showing a strong tendency for right-wing politics, right-wing
:45:04. > :45:07.conservatism, and promoting values that we are not promoting here or we
:45:08. > :45:12.don't agree with here. Even Theresa May has said she opposes the travel
:45:13. > :45:15.ban, one of his key policies, we have heard from Dorothy that he
:45:16. > :45:17.doesn't uphold the values that we hold dear in the UK so why should he
:45:18. > :45:29.come? I have sympathy for the petition you
:45:30. > :45:33.put forward. Trump's attempt at the travel ban... This is an issue dealt
:45:34. > :45:36.with the in the United States, judges have taken down this travel
:45:37. > :45:41.ban and Trump has met that opposition there. When the UK does
:45:42. > :45:45.host the President of the chop, that the President of Russia, it seems
:45:46. > :45:51.strange it would draw a red line an Donald Trump. I do not believe the
:45:52. > :45:55.US is a bigger human rights offender than China or Russia. Immigration
:45:56. > :46:02.policy and issues are not contained to Trump's America. Look at the dub
:46:03. > :46:07.scheme rolled back here in the UK. Only 300 child migrants are going to
:46:08. > :46:12.be allowed into the UK rather than 3,000. Look at programmes here. Why
:46:13. > :46:17.is there so much outrage by Donald Trump when we've welcomed other
:46:18. > :46:21.authoritarian leaders in the past. The Queen's entertained them and
:46:22. > :46:28.they've terrible human rights track records? I want to agree with what
:46:29. > :46:32.she mentioned the the protest is not just against Trump. We have take in
:46:33. > :46:40.consideration as well that the UK has already done what he's doing, we
:46:41. > :46:46.have that role in Calais, we've... So why stop him coming? It is
:46:47. > :46:54.important to express our disagreement and our worry that
:46:55. > :47:01.Trump, as the leader of the US, as the newly-elected president, poses a
:47:02. > :47:05.grave danger that he is encore anning right-wing toll ticks of hate
:47:06. > :47:09.and especially against migrants. Do you think he's a danger, Kate
:47:10. > :47:16.Andrews? Being right-wing is not a crime. You can't be stopped for
:47:17. > :47:20.coming because of that. Is he insighting hatred? If he is, he
:47:21. > :47:26.needs to be tried in the US for that. I don't think it's gone that
:47:27. > :47:32.far. That intense lively of the hatred yet. We need to see what
:47:33. > :47:35.plays out. In this post Brexit environment it would be problematic
:47:36. > :47:39.for Theresa May and the people to reject a huge trading partner and a
:47:40. > :47:44.country, forget the President, a country whose people share so many
:47:45. > :47:46.values with the UK. That special relationship cannot be destroyed
:47:47. > :47:50.simply because Donald Trump has been elected. I support the fact people
:47:51. > :47:54.want to protest. But controversial leaders have come to the UK before
:47:55. > :47:59.and will continue to come. It is important to have that debate. Thank
:48:00. > :48:06.you very much: Is this a good use of MPs time? It will be an interesting
:48:07. > :48:10.and passionate debate in Westminster Hall later today. O'Relationship
:48:11. > :48:15.with America has gone on for generations and will continue to go
:48:16. > :48:19.on. Was it a mistake to offer a state visit rather than a normal
:48:20. > :48:22.visit? It has been offered. It is what happens to the person who holds
:48:23. > :48:29.office of the president of the United States. Not as quickly as in
:48:30. > :48:34.this case? Our diplomatic relations are very person for our security and
:48:35. > :48:37.economy. We've been already delivered, the Prime Minister got
:48:38. > :48:42.assurances on conditions to NATO. That can only come about if you have
:48:43. > :48:47.good diplomatic relations. Is this just a waste of time? No, it is too
:48:48. > :48:53.early in his presidency. Nevertheless, I wouldn't go to the
:48:54. > :48:56.ram parts on that. I don't think he should address both Houses of
:48:57. > :49:02.Parliament. Nelson Mandela was afford that had privilege. Other
:49:03. > :49:08.people. It is an earned privilege. The Speaker was right in saying
:49:09. > :49:11.that. We've had the President in China, not necessarily addressing
:49:12. > :49:20.the Houses of Parliament but in terms of state visits. Hirahito...
:49:21. > :49:27.In terms of addressing both Houses of Parliament. Nelson Mandela do not
:49:28. > :49:31.fall into that bracket. One day, maybe Trump will have earned that
:49:32. > :49:37.privilege. But not yet. It is very early to have a state visit. No
:49:38. > :49:41.preview president has come this easterly in their career. I tend to
:49:42. > :49:44.agree with the lady who said the opposition to Trump and what he's
:49:45. > :49:50.done in America should be done there. Perhaps he should go to Swede
:49:51. > :49:53.and and find out what's happening there.
:49:54. > :49:55.And the BBC Parliament channel will be broadcasting the entire debate
:49:56. > :49:58.about President Trump's State Visit from 4.30pm.
:49:59. > :50:04.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:50:05. > :50:07.Now, this year is the 50th anniversary of the part
:50:08. > :50:09.decriminalisation of homosexuality in the UK, and various events have
:50:10. > :50:11.been planned to mark the occasion, including a festival
:50:12. > :50:14.by the National Trust to highlight their properties that
:50:15. > :50:17.But is that something the National Trust should be doing?
:50:18. > :50:19.The writer James Delingpole doesn't think so.
:50:20. > :50:45.It was always my ambition to live in a nice old gaffe like this.
:50:46. > :50:47.Problem is, like most people, I can't afford it.
:50:48. > :50:50.That's where the National Trust comes in.
:50:51. > :50:55.Founded in 1895, it buys up architectural gems like this place,
:50:56. > :51:12.Sissinghurst Castle, and now they belong to all of us.
:51:13. > :51:21.I loved the architecture, the teas, the gentle folk volunteers dying
:51:22. > :51:28.When my kids were younger, I used to bring them
:51:29. > :51:30.to our great houses pretty much every other weekend.
:51:31. > :51:45.I gave up on the National Trust when it gave up on its day job.
:51:46. > :51:49.Instead of preserving our heritage, it started dabbling in politics.
:51:50. > :51:54.it started campaigning against global warming.
:51:55. > :51:59.It jumped on the political correctness bandwagon.
:52:00. > :52:01.Now, it's celebrating all things gay.
:52:02. > :52:04.This year, as I'm sure you'll know, marks the 50th anniversary
:52:05. > :52:08.of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality.
:52:09. > :52:14.So, the National Trust is staging a prejudice and pride season.
:52:15. > :52:17.Any National Trust property with a vaguely LGBT
:52:18. > :52:26.was the home of those legendary gardeners, writers and gay icons
:52:27. > :52:31.Harold Nicholson and Vita Sackville-West.
:52:32. > :52:38.has a fine and glorious tradition of stately homos.
:52:39. > :52:41.The trusts greatest director James Lees-Milne
:52:42. > :52:49.What exactly does sexuality have to do with heritage?
:52:50. > :52:53.Aren't there already enough right-on charities out there treating us
:52:54. > :52:57.like primary school children, telling us what to think
:52:58. > :53:02.about the politically correct matters of the moment?
:53:03. > :53:10.because the National Trust is meant to be stuffy and old fashioned.
:53:11. > :53:15.Not some trendy social justice warrior.
:53:16. > :53:17.Maybe if enough of us resign our memberships,
:53:18. > :53:36.We did ask the National Trust but they didn't want to put anyone up on
:53:37. > :53:42.this occasion. Isn't it with a hum bug. Their day job is to preserve
:53:43. > :53:47.and promote the history of these buildings, those what were lived in
:53:48. > :53:53.and enjoyed by gay people. I think I am ABBA hum bug kind of person. Can
:53:54. > :53:59.I apollingise for the awful tying of my scarf! We'll get loads of
:54:00. > :54:05.complaints I'm sure! There are loads of charities out there telling us
:54:06. > :54:09.how to live our lives. The National Trust is for us fuddy-duddies. White
:54:10. > :54:14.straight, middle class. That doesn't mean to say other people are not
:54:15. > :54:17.welcome but it needs to stick to its core addens rather than reaching out
:54:18. > :54:26.pointlessly to these fashionable causes. Is that what you think? I'm
:54:27. > :54:29.here to disappoint. I veries the a National Trust house this weekend,
:54:30. > :54:33.I'm not fuddy-duddy or old. I'm worried for you. You need to cheer
:54:34. > :54:37.up, man. It is important these properties show of the history of
:54:38. > :54:42.who lived there whether lesbian, gay or transgender. It is important the
:54:43. > :54:46.National Trust shows stories of the people who lived there who were
:54:47. > :54:52.oppressed and the heroes. It is important people of all backgrounds
:54:53. > :54:59.visit these properties. I'm worried that will upset you. I thought that
:55:00. > :55:02.from a member of the Tory Party. It is something all politicians come up
:55:03. > :55:06.with. They want to show they're with the modern age. That's fine. The
:55:07. > :55:12.National Trust is meant to the old fashioned. It is about heritage It
:55:13. > :55:16.is its duty to share history of people living in those homes
:55:17. > :55:23.regardless of backgrounds. I'm not oaring youing. I'm not say it is
:55:24. > :55:29.should hide the fact Vita was gay. To have a whole season of gayness,
:55:30. > :55:34.it shows me National Trust is going down an alley of the ghastly
:55:35. > :55:41.directors was who poor civil servant. Why not someone like Roy
:55:42. > :55:47.Strong rather than a pasted over civil servant. Alan? I wouldn't join
:55:48. > :55:51.an organisation that James hadn't managed to resign from! There you
:55:52. > :55:57.go. That's my approach. The way is open for you. The whole point is as
:55:58. > :56:04.Nusrat said being gay is considered normal. It is not about being trendy
:56:05. > :56:08.or politically direct. Maybe the -- politically correct. Some of the
:56:09. > :56:16.greatest house owners were gay. My friends. James Lees-Milne didn't
:56:17. > :56:20.make a big deal about it. But the history of sex withouty within these
:56:21. > :56:26.buildings, especially when you're talking about artists and writers,
:56:27. > :56:31.is part of it? I like seeing Harold and Vita's cottage. It was
:56:32. > :56:40.interesting. It is a detail rather than the he is sense of these ports.
:56:41. > :56:43.Isn't it National Trust just acured a novel from Vita Sackville-West's
:56:44. > :56:47.brother. Having acquired that for the nation, that's great, part of
:56:48. > :56:53.our literary heritage, they decided to do this. It doesn't go on
:56:54. > :56:59.forever. James made a wonderful pointed that he wished he hasn't
:57:00. > :57:04.resigned ten years ago about fox-hunting, he would resign now. I
:57:05. > :57:10.could resign at least once a week. Will you rejoin after the season?
:57:11. > :57:16.Really, this gay thing is only a peg. I'm more afound about climate
:57:17. > :57:20.change and nonsense like that. Do you think it's become too political
:57:21. > :57:25.in terms of getting involved in campaigns that are beyond one might
:57:26. > :57:31.say the remit? It might please James to know I'm not a paid-up member. It
:57:32. > :57:35.is my parent in laws. It is not anningation I would become a member
:57:36. > :57:39.of. It is an issue with the National Trust. How do they reach out to
:57:40. > :57:43.deefrn families up and down the countries so people can access their
:57:44. > :57:48.site and understand the fill breadth of their history. They need to get
:57:49. > :57:53.as many members as possible. Why not do this? Don't disyour core market.
:57:54. > :57:57.There are lots of people out there who haves are Iained their
:57:58. > :58:02.memberships in protest at this political stance it's taking. It
:58:03. > :58:09.doesn't need to be political. It alienate half its audience. We Helen
:58:10. > :58:15.talks about political... It is run by a woman who's ex-Seville servant.
:58:16. > :58:20.A Blairite civil servant. They are gettings rid of people like me! I'm
:58:21. > :58:25.getting rid of you now, James. Thank you for doing a soapbox. When we
:58:26. > :58:30.talked earlier about the trump visit. Ping did address both Houses
:58:31. > :58:31.of Parliament. There's just time before we go
:58:32. > :58:34.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which group does
:58:35. > :58:37.Microsoft founder Bill Gates think A) Schoolchildren, B) Robots,
:58:38. > :58:42.D) Pets or D) Graffiti artists? So, Alan and Nusrat,
:58:43. > :58:44.what's the correct answer? Thanks to Alan, Nusrat
:58:45. > :58:47.and all my guests. The one o'clock news is starting
:58:48. > :58:55.over on BBC One now. with all the big political stories
:58:56. > :58:59.of the day. To be in the Lords,
:59:00. > :59:05.you have to be punctual... literally have to slam
:59:06. > :59:09.the door in somebody's face. What right do they have
:59:10. > :59:14.to tell ME about my fashion sense.