:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.Two thirds of the plans to re-configure NHS services
:00:43. > :00:45.in England involve cuts to hospital services -
:00:46. > :00:50.but are they "the best hope of delivering essential reforms"?
:00:51. > :00:51.Other left wing leaders are available.
:00:52. > :00:56.Is Jeremy Corbyn no longer the only hope for the Labour left?
:00:57. > :00:59.A record number of peers sign up to have their say on Brexit -
:01:00. > :01:02.but guess who was there to cast her beady eye
:01:03. > :01:07.And have peers been a little too candid to camera
:01:08. > :01:14.in a BBC documentary about the upper house?
:01:15. > :01:17.There are, sad to say, many, many peers who contribute absolutely
:01:18. > :01:27.nothing but claim the full allowance.
:01:28. > :01:30.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:31. > :01:31.of the programme today, Jeremy Corbyn ally
:01:32. > :01:36.the Labour commentator and columnist, Owen Jones.
:01:37. > :01:46.Two-thirds of the plans to change the way the NHS delivers services
:01:47. > :01:48.in England involve a cut to hospital services,
:01:49. > :01:53.The proposals have been made by local NHS bosses as part
:01:54. > :01:57.of a national programme to transform the health service and save money.
:01:58. > :02:01.44 local plans have been drawn up across England and include
:02:02. > :02:11.everything from full closures of hospitals to cutting some
:02:12. > :02:14.specialist services such as Accident Emergency and stroke care.
:02:15. > :02:15.Ministers argue patients will receive better
:02:16. > :02:19.Bringing community services together into "super" hubs
:02:20. > :02:24.to include GP, council-run care and district nursing.
:02:25. > :02:28.Getting GPs working together in federations to improve access
:02:29. > :02:35.And asking hospital specialists to work in community clinics
:02:36. > :02:40.to bring expert care closer to people's homes.
:02:41. > :02:43.The think tank the King's Fund says the proposals offer the
:02:44. > :02:46."best hope of delivering essential reforms" in the NHS,
:02:47. > :02:50.as care needs to be moved out of hospital.
:02:51. > :02:53.But warned this could not be done without extra funding
:02:54. > :02:56.because there weren't enough services outside of hospitals
:02:57. > :03:01.and community services were already "feeling the strain"
:03:02. > :03:03.and couldn't cope with an increase in workload.
:03:04. > :03:10.Here's the chief executive of the King's Fund, Chris Ham.
:03:11. > :03:19.Our biggest worry is the plans that proposed to cut back the number of
:03:20. > :03:21.hospital beds simply aren't credible when our hospitals are so
:03:22. > :03:27.overcrowded during this winter, it's not going to be feasible to deliver
:03:28. > :03:31.that ambition. The emphasis must be on the out of hospital services,
:03:32. > :03:34.district nursing, general practice, social care, and making them much
:03:35. > :03:36.more effective to help people stay at home when that is the right thing
:03:37. > :03:42.to do. Joining is now Dixon, the chief
:03:43. > :03:46.executive of the NHS Federation which represents the commissioners
:03:47. > :03:52.and providers of those who have drawn of the plans. The analysis you
:03:53. > :03:55.have seen show services will be scaled back in two thirds of areas,
:03:56. > :04:00.so you can see why people would think the plans you are putting
:04:01. > :04:04.forward are a euphemism for cuts? Yes, you could say that but I don't
:04:05. > :04:07.think that is the case. What you are finding is a set of organisations
:04:08. > :04:11.that, as Chris Ham has just pointed out, are under enormous pressure, so
:04:12. > :04:15.there is pressure in terms of trying to make the books balance and that
:04:16. > :04:18.is a question that needs to be taken back to Government because I think
:04:19. > :04:23.the system is now in a more typical position than it was when the plans
:04:24. > :04:26.were first started. -- difficult position. But I don't think we
:04:27. > :04:31.should confuse that with the need to reform. There is a need for reform
:04:32. > :04:34.both to provide better services but also to cope with a very large
:04:35. > :04:37.number of elderly people who are suffering from a number of different
:04:38. > :04:42.conditions who are now overloading the most critical part of the system
:04:43. > :04:46.in terms of the hospital services, because there is inadequate services
:04:47. > :04:50.in the community. So changing that around and joining up those services
:04:51. > :04:56.is could not an optional extra, it has to be done. And if we carry on
:04:57. > :05:01.that thread, The King's Fund says these plans are still the best hope
:05:02. > :05:04.of delivering essential reforms in the NHS. Without those essential
:05:05. > :05:09.reforms and because they haven't happened in the past, we are in the
:05:10. > :05:14.position we are in today. This isn't a euphemism for cuts, these are
:05:15. > :05:18.cuts. Two thirds involving closures or moving services. Does that make
:05:19. > :05:23.it a worse service? Of course it does. What we see in local
:05:24. > :05:30.authorities are the devolving of cuts from Government and local
:05:31. > :05:35.authorities. In social care? Exactly. They introduced the
:05:36. > :05:38.principle of competition in the very core services, privatisation,
:05:39. > :05:41.marketisation. We have had the longest squeeze in funding on the
:05:42. > :05:46.NHS as a proportion of our economy since it was founded. Cuts to social
:05:47. > :05:51.care at an increasing time of ageing population. So these cuts in
:05:52. > :05:55.practice will be devolving cuts and as we have heard from the Red Cross,
:05:56. > :05:59.the consequences of that has been a humanitarian crisis in the NHS and
:06:00. > :06:04.that is Government policy. Is that what you are going to do, as head of
:06:05. > :06:09.an SDP plan, devolve those cuts and give them to somebody else to enact
:06:10. > :06:13.and they are just cuts? Now I think they are the ones making the
:06:14. > :06:17.decision and we use these letters as if it is something, it is actually
:06:18. > :06:20.the chief executives of all the organisations that are local, the
:06:21. > :06:24.local authority, the health trust, the community and bringing in the
:06:25. > :06:30.GPs, working together in a co-ordinated way for the first time,
:06:31. > :06:34.so I don't think we should bogey the STPss and I'm not suggesting Owen is
:06:35. > :06:37.doing that. He is right that the NHS and social care have had a bad
:06:38. > :06:42.period in terms of funding and we are starting to see the effect of
:06:43. > :06:47.that. The danger is that that then either slows down or harms the work
:06:48. > :06:52.the STPs are doing, but we shouldn't say that every time something has
:06:53. > :06:56.changed in the NHS, it means a cut. It can mean a better provided
:06:57. > :06:59.service. Isn't that the point, you are always flagging up, and some
:07:00. > :07:04.extent of the Labour Party, that this hospital is going to close this
:07:05. > :07:07.service, therefore it is leading to privatisation and cuts across the
:07:08. > :07:12.service, nothing must change, whereas there are clear examples of
:07:13. > :07:18.where you do close services and concentrate stroke services, for
:07:19. > :07:22.example, in a few hospitals, more extras, the outcome is better. The
:07:23. > :07:25.problem is when reform is a euphemism for privatisation. It
:07:26. > :07:28.doesn't mean people like myself oppose reform. How'd you get it
:07:29. > :07:35.through politically if you forever flagged up cuts and closures as bad?
:07:36. > :07:38.What we see with privatisation is bureaucracy, to manage the different
:07:39. > :07:41.contracts, you need more managers, which is a waste of public money but
:07:42. > :07:45.in terms of what we are talking about here, the NHS has been plunged
:07:46. > :07:50.into an humanitarian crisis as the Red Cross says and when we saw at
:07:51. > :07:53.the last General Election, the Conservatives promised no more
:07:54. > :07:56.top-down reorganisations, which they did and it is ironic what they are
:07:57. > :07:59.doing now, they are arguing against increased competition, which is what
:08:00. > :08:05.they did a few years ago, with another series of reforms, which is
:08:06. > :08:09.devolving cuts to these STPs. Do you see it as a humanitarian crisis
:08:10. > :08:12.within the NHS? I think it is a tragedy where we have a situation
:08:13. > :08:17.for example where 2 million elderly people are not getting any form of
:08:18. > :08:20.social care and the consequence of that is the kind of pressures we are
:08:21. > :08:25.talking about in hospitals. But I think it is the job of my members to
:08:26. > :08:29.manage the amount of money they are given and try and provide the best
:08:30. > :08:34.possible services and I think that is what STPs and others are trying
:08:35. > :08:39.to do. But I do think it will take more time, as The King's Fund
:08:40. > :08:44.reports suggests, and it is important that before you reduce or
:08:45. > :08:48.change a service at one level, you have to make sure the appropriate
:08:49. > :08:53.service is in the Other Place. The STPs, what they are supposed to do
:08:54. > :08:58.in part is administered a ?20 billion efficiency savings, or 22,
:08:59. > :09:01.even, which the NHS is expected to administer. In practice, those
:09:02. > :09:06.savings are a euphemism for cuts which will be detrimental to
:09:07. > :09:12.services in the NHS. That is an assumption that all ?22 billion is
:09:13. > :09:15.simply a cut. But they are efficiency savings. Any
:09:16. > :09:20.organisation, in the private or public sector, does cost efficiency
:09:21. > :09:25.programmes, it is part of running an organisation. But if that means
:09:26. > :09:28.moving beds, closing beds, in any of these plans, how can that be a good
:09:29. > :09:32.thing when you have said yourself the strain on the services and
:09:33. > :09:37.hospitals and the BMA says the NHS is at breaking point? That is saving
:09:38. > :09:40.that surely can't afford? The question is that whether in an
:09:41. > :09:44.individual set of organisations you can build a community services to
:09:45. > :09:48.start reducing, and we are starting to see that. This would be closing
:09:49. > :09:52.beds before they build services up. You shouldn't do that, you have to
:09:53. > :09:56.devise new ways of organising the services, change the way we organise
:09:57. > :10:00.services in the Trinity in order to be able to do that. In each
:10:01. > :10:04.individual medical specialty, you can look at the best pathways for
:10:05. > :10:09.those patients. The reality is that across the country, it is variable,
:10:10. > :10:13.some countries have it much more efficiently run and we need to move
:10:14. > :10:17.towards that. At the moment we have what is not a national Health
:10:18. > :10:20.Service at the moment, and national disease service, dealing with the
:10:21. > :10:25.symptoms rather than focusing on prevention. If we did more on
:10:26. > :10:28.prevention, we would save the NHS more money and that is reform we
:10:29. > :10:32.should talk about but not closing beds, losing staff, losing
:10:33. > :10:37.hospitals. And that is part of these plans. Prevention is absolutely at
:10:38. > :10:40.the centre of this and it is not just the primary prevention of doing
:10:41. > :10:45.more exercise and so on, it is also about how do you manage an elderly
:10:46. > :10:48.person who has got a series of different conditions in the
:10:49. > :10:52.community, so they are not going in and out of hospital? Some of them
:10:53. > :10:56.are going in and out on a regular basis which puts huge pressure on a
:10:57. > :10:59.hospital, very bad for the elderly people and bad for the NHS's bank
:11:00. > :11:03.account. If we can do it more effectively, we can do it in the
:11:04. > :11:05.community. Thank you. There will be some bleary eyes over
:11:06. > :11:08.the road in the House Peers were up debating past midnight
:11:09. > :11:12.last night on the bill that will enable Theresa May to trigger
:11:13. > :11:15.Article 50, which begins the process of the UK's withdrawal
:11:16. > :11:17.from the European Union. And in almost unprecedented scenes,
:11:18. > :11:19.the Prime Minister was keeping a beady eye on the unelected Lords,
:11:20. > :11:23.sitting in on the steps below Here's a taste of
:11:24. > :11:39.those proceedings. We will not be threatened into not
:11:40. > :11:46.fulfilling our normal constitutional role. And neither will we be goaded
:11:47. > :11:52.into acting irresponsibly. If we asked the House of Commons to look
:11:53. > :11:56.again at an issue, it is not a constitutional outrage but a
:11:57. > :12:02.constitutional responsibility. We will not have the same trade. We
:12:03. > :12:08.will not have the equal benefits. To say otherwise, my Lords, is a fraud
:12:09. > :12:10.on the public. For many others, the approach being adopted by the
:12:11. > :12:17.Government is little short of disastrous. For those of us, and
:12:18. > :12:20.there are very many in your lordship's has, for whom Europe has
:12:21. > :12:28.been a central theme of our entire political lies, the circumstances
:12:29. > :12:35.are both unthinkable and unconscionable. I voted to remain in
:12:36. > :12:41.the European Union, but I support this bill because I believe the
:12:42. > :12:47.referendum was decisive. As soon as it is clear that sadly, Al European
:12:48. > :12:52.Union partners won't accept our offer, we should move on. There is
:12:53. > :12:56.nothing to be gained by protracted and doomed negotiations.
:12:57. > :12:58.Proceedings in the Lords yesterday and you can watch today's debate
:12:59. > :13:02.live from 2.30 today by pressing the red button.
:13:03. > :13:05.We're joined now by Conservative Peer and former Chancellor -
:13:06. > :13:10.who you saw just there - Nigel Lawson.
:13:11. > :13:15.Welcome to the Daily Politics. Lord Mandelson, as you would have heard,
:13:16. > :13:18.says he respects the vote in the Commons but hopes the House of Lords
:13:19. > :13:23.doesn't throw in the tal too early, he just wants the Lords to guarantee
:13:24. > :13:27.EU nationals' rides and for Parliament to have a final say on
:13:28. > :13:31.the Brexit deal. Do you believe him? No, I think he is still in the Tony
:13:32. > :13:35.Blair camp are trying to get the whole thing reversed, but nobody
:13:36. > :13:39.takes it seriously. They don't? What about some of your colleagues
:13:40. > :13:44.question what would there be sympathy for that viewpoint amongst
:13:45. > :13:47.peers? I have come out clearly all along the line that we should give a
:13:48. > :13:53.unilateral guarantee to those European Union citizens who were
:13:54. > :14:00.legally resident here at the time of the referendum. But this is not the
:14:01. > :14:05.place for it. And indeed, I think this is what will happen, the Home
:14:06. > :14:08.Secretary has already given an undertaking to the Commons that
:14:09. > :14:12.there will be no question of having them removed without a vote in the
:14:13. > :14:16.House of Commons and that would not pass the House of Commons, so it's
:14:17. > :14:20.not going to happen, but the point is that it is not what this bill is
:14:21. > :14:28.about. This bill is about the mechanics of triggering Article 50.
:14:29. > :14:33.Do you agree with that? My worry about EU nationals, yesterday, One
:14:34. > :14:37.Day Without Us, which focused on the contributions by migrants to our
:14:38. > :14:40.economy, if you look at people who voted remain or leave,
:14:41. > :14:44.overwhelmingly, they support safeguarding the rights of EU
:14:45. > :14:50.nationals. We are divided as a nation over the referendum result
:14:51. > :14:53.but United there and using those people as bargaining chips, who keep
:14:54. > :14:57.our economy running, I find disturbing. It has left a huge chunk
:14:58. > :15:01.of our fellow citizens, neighbours, friends, lovers, people who look
:15:02. > :15:06.after us, people about their future. I think that it was a mistake that I
:15:07. > :15:09.understand why initially, although I think the Government is elegantly
:15:10. > :15:15.backing off from this now, but I think the reason why they took a bad
:15:16. > :15:19.position, why Theresa May took it up initially, is that she was concerned
:15:20. > :15:26.about the position of British national is resident in the European
:15:27. > :15:31.Union who are anxious, I think wrongly anxious. My home is in
:15:32. > :15:35.France and I am not in the slightest bit
:15:36. > :15:42.But it comes back to the original point. Do you think there are a
:15:43. > :15:45.large number of peers who think it is a mistake for UK to leave the
:15:46. > :15:51.European Union who really want to frustrate Brexit? There is no real
:15:52. > :15:55.risk in your mind as far as that is concerned? What do you think about
:15:56. > :15:58.the none too subtle threats from the government to abolish the upper
:15:59. > :16:04.chamber if the peers were to put up too much of a fight. I'm not aware
:16:05. > :16:10.that that is a position at all. Ministers were quoted that even in
:16:11. > :16:16.the Cabinet it was said. They were not named. That is pressure rubbish.
:16:17. > :16:21.-- press rubbish. There is no one who would like to Sydney Opera House
:16:22. > :16:29.abolished if there was too much -- the upper house abolished? Angela
:16:30. > :16:33.Smith is the leader of the Labour opposition and she is very good and
:16:34. > :16:38.I have time for her and she has made it clear that even though she would
:16:39. > :16:42.like to see one or two members move, and the House of Commons say no
:16:43. > :16:47.thank you, that will be the end of it. I am worried about this. I'm not
:16:48. > :16:50.sympathetic to an unelected House of Lords but I wouldn't want to
:16:51. > :16:54.abolished without replacement. Do you think the threats are real?
:16:55. > :16:59.Regardless of whether the threat is real or not, the fact it's leaked is
:17:00. > :17:02.disturbing. This government, when it comes to electoral boundaries and in
:17:03. > :17:06.terms of party funding its done things that are authoritarian. You
:17:07. > :17:11.mustn't take this nonsense seriously. It had to come from
:17:12. > :17:15.somewhere? It was Cabinet ministers who were quoted, but not names. If
:17:16. > :17:19.you don't have a name you cannot believe it. There is no question the
:17:20. > :17:24.referendum result has to be respected. But the debate has to be
:17:25. > :17:27.what sort of deal. During the referendum we were told we were
:17:28. > :17:33.really gaining parliamentary sovereignty as part of that, there
:17:34. > :17:37.has to be screwed to the -- scrutiny of that. That's not frustrating the
:17:38. > :17:44.referendum result, it is frustrating that. -- respecting that. If there
:17:45. > :17:49.was no threat to the upper house, why did Theresa May, and it's pretty
:17:50. > :17:53.unprecedented, why did she come in and sit and glare at the peers? She
:17:54. > :17:58.was not glaring. That is what you think. She was demonstrating that
:17:59. > :18:03.she takes the House of Lords seriously. Is that what it was? Were
:18:04. > :18:09.you pleased to see her there? Delighted. What do you say about
:18:10. > :18:13.your Tory colleague wrote that if the peers applied the brakes to
:18:14. > :18:30.Brexit they would be doing their job. She's silly. Why? It's Owen. I
:18:31. > :18:36.often forget my name. As Owen said, the people have spoken, the House of
:18:37. > :18:47.Commons has accepted this by an overwhelming majority and 41
:18:48. > :18:53.eccentric peer to complain about it is neither here nor there. One of
:18:54. > :18:57.the other threats to the unelected Lords may not be to do with Brexit
:18:58. > :19:01.might be more to do with the way they behave in terms of claiming
:19:02. > :19:06.their allowances for the day. Let's have a look at the former Lords
:19:07. > :19:13.speaker who had this to say. There is a core of peers who work
:19:14. > :19:19.incredibly hard, who do that work and there are, sad to say, many,
:19:20. > :19:23.many, many peers who contribute absolutely nothing. But they claim
:19:24. > :19:28.the full allowance. I can remember one occasion when I was leaving the
:19:29. > :19:35.house quite late and there was a peer, who will be nameless, who
:19:36. > :19:38.jumped out of the taxi and left the engine running, ran in, presumably
:19:39. > :19:44.to show he had attended and then ran out again while the taxi was still
:19:45. > :19:47.running. What do you say to that? Well, you shouldn't do that, but I
:19:48. > :19:52.think that's the exception. If we look at this debate there was a
:19:53. > :19:57.packed chamber through yesterday and there has been today and they are
:19:58. > :20:04.still debating today. About 190 speakers. Indeed, we are the
:20:05. > :20:08.cheapest chamber in any democracy in the world. There are maybe one or
:20:09. > :20:12.two people who abuse it. She said there were a lot. She gave the
:20:13. > :20:15.particular example about the taxi running, but in terms of people
:20:16. > :20:21.coming in to claim the daily allowance, which is ?300 per day. I
:20:22. > :20:25.don't know. In my case, because I live overseas, it actually costs me
:20:26. > :20:31.money because I can't claim a travel allowance from overseas. Has she
:20:32. > :20:35.been a bit too candid? I think the people deserve to know how money is
:20:36. > :20:39.spent on their behalf. The House of Lords is partly packed with cronies
:20:40. > :20:43.political leaders, people who donated large sums to political
:20:44. > :20:47.parties and lots of people who are not there to do the job they are
:20:48. > :20:53.meant to. I am very fond of you despite our severe political
:20:54. > :20:56.differences. That is why we need to abolish it or replace it with an
:20:57. > :21:01.elected second chamber where people are there to do the job and not do
:21:02. > :21:06.other jobs, or have a single chamber with boosted checks and balances.
:21:07. > :21:08.This is an embarrassment to lots of people in the country and it's not
:21:09. > :21:13.how a democracy should function. Do you think she was too honest? No,
:21:14. > :21:20.she's entitled to have you. I don't know numbers. But on the whole, the
:21:21. > :21:26.great majority of peers take the place very seriously. They put in
:21:27. > :21:29.the hours? They put in the hours and they take part in the committees
:21:30. > :21:35.which is an excellent part of the House of Lords and the total cost is
:21:36. > :21:36.amazingly small for a fully functioning democratic chamber.
:21:37. > :21:40.Thank you very much. Now, our guest of the day,
:21:41. > :21:42.Owen Jones, comes fresh from organising a protest outside
:21:43. > :21:44.Parliament last night. Two causes were being
:21:45. > :21:46.championed by the thousands of protestors in Parliament
:21:47. > :21:48.Square last night. celebrated the contribution
:21:49. > :21:53.of migrants in the UK and coincided with a protest against
:21:54. > :21:55.Donald Trump's Inside Parliament's
:21:56. > :22:03.Westminster Hall chamber, MPs were holding a debate responding
:22:04. > :22:05.to rival public petitions "Pimping out the Queen
:22:06. > :22:17.for the Donald Trump." This apparently is what they meant
:22:18. > :22:21.by getting our sovereignty back, Mr Walker, I don't think it's
:22:22. > :22:28.in order to refer to pimping out some however distinguished
:22:29. > :22:32.journalist. We can refer to all the things
:22:33. > :22:35.about Donald Trump, as people have, even though
:22:36. > :23:02.he's democratically elected. Can you roll out the red carpet for
:23:03. > :23:07.that. He has insulted the LG BT community and branded Mexicans as
:23:08. > :23:10.rapists and murderers. Let's look at the comments, the charge of
:23:11. > :23:13.misogyny, what he is reported to have said in a private conversation
:23:14. > :23:18.is horrible and ridiculous, but which one of us has not made some
:23:19. > :23:25.ridiculous sexual comment at some time in our past?
:23:26. > :23:27.We're joined now by the Conservative MP Nigel Evans,
:23:28. > :23:42.It's slightly different. Just leave it there. Keeping it easy for you
:23:43. > :23:46.today. I don't know who the third person will be, Nigel. You never
:23:47. > :23:49.know. You accused MPs of double standards with Donald Trump but
:23:50. > :23:55.isn't it the case that many who oppose his visits were standing up
:23:56. > :23:59.to the values they genuinely believe him -- in? Where were they when the
:24:00. > :24:05.Chinese primaries came. I don't expect everything to be endorsed by
:24:06. > :24:10.everyone from every country and if it was the rule of a Gulf state that
:24:11. > :24:16.was important to us. You could oppose those as well? I don't
:24:17. > :24:20.remember having a Parliamentary debate about Xi Jinping coming or
:24:21. > :24:24.any middle East leader either. What I accuse of his double standards as
:24:25. > :24:27.far as that is concerned, and also sneering. Whenever anybody talks
:24:28. > :24:33.about Donald Trump they incredibly difficult to get to come to terms
:24:34. > :24:37.with the faculty is President of the United States. You only have to look
:24:38. > :24:40.at that piece on Newsnight when you had George Clooney and a few others
:24:41. > :24:43.laughing when they mentioned his name and he would never become
:24:44. > :24:47.president, and the fact is he is an sneering will not help. It is an
:24:48. > :24:53.arrogance. He is democratically elected, get over it. So that's how
:24:54. > :24:57.democracy works question what the other side becomes silent. You
:24:58. > :25:02.wouldn't have the official position scrutinising. That's not opposing
:25:03. > :25:07.the position of coming over for a state visit? That's a state visit, a
:25:08. > :25:10.huge honour like other presidents never received. No president at the
:25:11. > :25:15.outset has been given a state visit like this, and this is the most
:25:16. > :25:21.obnoxious menacing president that the US has had in modern times. Are
:25:22. > :25:30.you condemning the American people when you say that? 63 million voted
:25:31. > :25:34.for Donald Trump and it is the fact that people like yourself and Tony
:25:35. > :25:41.Blair and others. I'm often lumped together with Tony Blair. You can't
:25:42. > :25:45.come to terms with the fact that middle America, the people you felt
:25:46. > :25:49.dispossessed and felt they were not listen to... Why should he have a
:25:50. > :25:52.state visit? I was talking the somebody another day it is not to
:25:53. > :25:56.say thank you for what you've done over the last seven days, and it's
:25:57. > :25:59.the fact that he received Theresa May as the first world leader and he
:26:00. > :26:02.put the bust of Winston Churchill straight back into the Oval Office
:26:03. > :26:08.and said we were now in the front of a trade cube. Barack Obama said we
:26:09. > :26:12.were at the back. Barack Obama said we were at the back of the trade
:26:13. > :26:18.cube. What has it actually achieved? They will not change anything. They
:26:19. > :26:24.are putting pressure on their own government. When people marched
:26:25. > :26:28.against the Iraqi war, 2 million... The war still happen. Public opinion
:26:29. > :26:32.at the time were supportive of Iraq and not many people admit it. If you
:26:33. > :26:37.look at all of the polling, where the vote Conservative, for Labour,
:26:38. > :26:40.the Lib Dems, the SNP, people are united in revulsion at the misogyny
:26:41. > :26:46.and racism and threat to world peace. The racism because he's
:26:47. > :26:52.building a wall to stop migrants? He spoken about Mexican immigrants.
:26:53. > :26:56.They've got 13 million illegal immigrants in the United States and
:26:57. > :26:59.they want to control immigration. Go and Google search Hillary Clinton,
:27:00. > :27:05.fences and walls. That doesn't make it right. You have Hillary Clinton
:27:06. > :27:10.saying it's OK to stop migrants coming in from Mexico. The way he
:27:11. > :27:13.has described Mexican immigrants as rapist and criminals is
:27:14. > :27:18.unacceptable. Members of his own party, the Republican party, when he
:27:19. > :27:21.attacked a Mexican judge who was not Mexican, they attacked him for being
:27:22. > :27:25.racist. They're not lefties. They are not like me. Is it about not
:27:26. > :27:31.normalising some of the things that he says, so whether it's about the
:27:32. > :27:34.war, a ban on Muslims coming into the country, some of the Commons
:27:35. > :27:42.he's made about women that people found unacceptable. If you don't
:27:43. > :27:50.protest or register you normalise it. We are a democracy as well. I
:27:51. > :27:55.was in America for the inauguration people were demonstrating before the
:27:56. > :27:59.inauguration. So we are clear about the aims. It's about standing in
:28:00. > :28:02.solidarity for those affected by his policies. The majority of Americans
:28:03. > :28:06.did rejecting that the election, but it's also about putting pressure on
:28:07. > :28:09.our own government because they wanted orientate this country to
:28:10. > :28:14.become closer to Donald Trump's America. In the referendum we were
:28:15. > :28:18.told we would take back control, that doesn't mean giving up control
:28:19. > :28:22.to Donald Trump. And just finally, it's all about joining the dots and
:28:23. > :28:24.saying we shouldn't blame migrants and foreigners the problems caused
:28:25. > :28:30.by the people at the top, the bankers. I will try to get some
:28:31. > :28:37.agreement between me and Owen here. You would agree that the analogy of
:28:38. > :28:39.Brexit and what happened in America, that the dispossessed, the
:28:40. > :28:45.deplorable is, those who felt left behind and not listen to voted for
:28:46. > :28:49.Trump and Brexit, and that there is an arrogance in some people who
:28:50. > :28:53.cannot get to grips with the fact that there is a movement of ordinary
:28:54. > :28:58.people out there who have had enough. Do you accept that? I accept
:28:59. > :29:01.people are angry may have reasons to be angry. Their living standards are
:29:02. > :29:05.falling and the kids are having a worse life than them. I don't think
:29:06. > :29:09.it's the answer to blame migrants are problems caused by people at the
:29:10. > :29:13.top. It wasn't migrants who plunged the economy into disaster, it was
:29:14. > :29:16.the banks. It's not migrants to avoid tax on an industrial scale,
:29:17. > :29:21.it's the people at the top. We are trying to balance that debate.
:29:22. > :29:26.Instead of blaming our neighbours, the Big Blue proper services like
:29:27. > :29:30.the NHS, let's talk about the people at the top, plutocrats like Donald
:29:31. > :29:36.Trump. -- the people who prop up our services. John Bercow said he should
:29:37. > :29:42.not be allowed to address parliament. Do you agree with John
:29:43. > :29:45.Bercow? No, I don't. I think it should have gone through normal
:29:46. > :29:49.procedure, and Norman Fowler has said they have had words they will
:29:50. > :29:50.go back to the normal procedure that there are three people making the
:29:51. > :30:00.decision, not just one. Owen Jones was one of the first
:30:01. > :30:01.high-profile Labour figures to champion Jeremy Corbyn as Labour
:30:02. > :30:03.leader. But he's since fallen
:30:04. > :30:05.out of love with him, saying just this month
:30:06. > :30:08.that he would "find it hard There's no vacancy at the moment
:30:09. > :30:12.of course, but should the Labour leader fall under that metaphorical
:30:13. > :30:14.bus, who would the candidates be? Well, Alex Donohue of Ladbrokes has
:30:15. > :30:24.chalked up the runners and riders So the favourite at the moment is
:30:25. > :30:30.Clyde Lewis at 5-1, but there is one name I want to draw everyone's
:30:31. > :30:35.attention to, Rebecca Long Bailey, she seems to be the talking horse at
:30:36. > :30:39.the moment. I'm not going to name any names but the lobby drinks,
:30:40. > :30:45.Christmas 2017, would be paid for by Ladbrokes if she got the job. John
:30:46. > :30:49.McDonnell next at 16-1, and Angela Rayner at 18. The two names at the
:30:50. > :30:56.bottom, Tony Blair and Owen Jones. This time last year, they were both
:30:57. > :31:01.250 to one. One of them has stay there, and another one is coming.
:31:02. > :31:09.Once upon a time, you and Tony were on level footing and Turney is --
:31:10. > :31:18.Tony Blair is surging ahead. I'm stagnating. Come and have five and
:31:19. > :31:24.you will be down to Bacchus pays 50-1. We are joined by Sam tarry,
:31:25. > :31:28.who was Jeremy Corbyn's campaign director last year. Does it matter
:31:29. > :31:32.that the leader of the Labour Party, the leader of Her Majesty's
:31:33. > :31:36.opposition, is incapable of winning an election? I don't think that is
:31:37. > :31:39.true, we have two elections coming up and nobody has said the
:31:40. > :31:42.by-elections will be anything but tough but I think we are on course
:31:43. > :31:47.to do better than some people have said. What is your prediction for
:31:48. > :31:53.the by-elections? Copeland will be pretty tight and I think Stoke, we
:31:54. > :31:59.will win. To be an opposition party, to gradually to decline where you
:32:00. > :32:04.are 18 points behind the Government in the polls is staggering. Things
:32:05. > :32:07.are tough and there is no point in saying otherwise. The problems we
:32:08. > :32:12.are dealing with is long-term historic trends. I knocked on a door
:32:13. > :32:17.in Stoke last weekend and the former Unite Stuard said they wouldn't vote
:32:18. > :32:20.for Labour ever again because they didn't back Brexit strongly enough.
:32:21. > :32:24.In London, people are saying they are falling out of love with Jeremy
:32:25. > :32:27.Corbyn because you are not backing staying in the EU enough and that
:32:28. > :32:31.can be transposed right across the country. How do we square circle
:32:32. > :32:38.that says you have got to win in Brighton, win in Norwich and at the
:32:39. > :32:41.same time with in Stoke? Is that really the reason it in your mind
:32:42. > :32:47.for why Labour is doing so badly in the polls? It is a massive factor. I
:32:48. > :32:50.would vote for Labour till I die, to clarify. You're talking about a
:32:51. > :32:56.leadership contest which I don't think will happen. What Sam says is
:32:57. > :32:59.critical. The unique problem for Labour's electoral coalition is it
:33:00. > :33:05.has one group, despondent Remainers, who think Brexit is the worst thing
:33:06. > :33:08.ever to happen and they wanted gone and another group, jubilant levers,
:33:09. > :33:15.who feel they have their country back. How do you square the circle
:33:16. > :33:20.when Hackney, 80% remain, was Dover in Doncaster, another Labour
:33:21. > :33:26.heartland, 70% voted to leave -- whilst over in Doncaster. Most
:33:27. > :33:29.Labour voters voted to remain and most Labour MPs vote constituencies
:33:30. > :33:34.that voted to leave. Do you think it is anything to do with leadership?
:33:35. > :33:38.Of course, many must mistakes are made, strategy and vision. Jeremy
:33:39. > :33:43.Corbyn didn't expect to win, he stood to put policies on the agenda.
:33:44. > :33:46.He is an extremely principled man, throughout history, he has been on
:33:47. > :33:51.the right side of everything for me... But you have turned against
:33:52. > :33:54.him. It is turning against, it is that I want a Labour leadership to
:33:55. > :33:59.do better, if you look to the polls, you would have to be bonkers to not
:34:00. > :34:02.want a massive turnaround and that is a Labour leadership that supports
:34:03. > :34:05.investment is not cuts, tax Justice, public ownership of utilities and
:34:06. > :34:10.services, an NHS that is not privatised. All of these things, I
:34:11. > :34:13.want a Labour Government to do and it would be completely ridiculous
:34:14. > :34:19.per metre city in a TV studio and say everything is fine and that is
:34:20. > :34:24.on the brink of happening -- for me to sit here. What support Owen
:34:25. > :34:27.Jones' view about the leadership is Jeremy Colvin's personal ratings,
:34:28. > :34:32.negative ratings among sleeve and remain voters in every social class
:34:33. > :34:35.in every region of Britain and every age group. He has even achieve the
:34:36. > :34:40.impossible by scoring a negative rating amongst Labour voters. Is the
:34:41. > :34:43.problem Jeremy Corbyn? I think Jeremy is getting attacked every
:34:44. > :34:49.single day in the media, that makes things done. It is the media's
:34:50. > :34:52.fault? I don't think that, there have been mistakes, messages could
:34:53. > :34:55.have been clearer and some of the policies that are popular, and you
:34:56. > :34:59.are saying polling says the popularity of the policies that
:35:00. > :35:05.Jeremy has put forward... How'd you answer the fact that he is behind it
:35:06. > :35:10.every single demographic? It is a difficult situation. What is the
:35:11. > :35:14.reason? I think the reason is perhaps Jeremy's not been able to
:35:15. > :35:19.get his message and policy across clearly enough. So you are blaming
:35:20. > :35:23.the media, it is the media's fault. Is that really going to explain to
:35:24. > :35:27.Labour MPs... I think it is more complicated, the Labour air at the
:35:28. > :35:32.rate party has been in a low-level civil war for a time and people
:35:33. > :35:37.don't like to vote for parties that are divided. Is any other Jeremy
:35:38. > :35:41.Corbyn's fault? I think Jeremy would admit he has made mistakes. He has
:35:42. > :35:45.had made some really big calls. Some people have said the Article 50
:35:46. > :35:48.stuff was wrong, others have said it is right. In the eyes of the voters,
:35:49. > :35:54.there isn't a right or wrong on that. He made a big call on that.
:35:55. > :35:57.This is an essential point, the policies themselves supported by a
:35:58. > :36:00.large majority. Most people want the rich to pay more tax, they want the
:36:01. > :36:06.railways to be nationalised again, they want investment and not cuts in
:36:07. > :36:09.the economy. The task of Labour leadership is to have a clear vision
:36:10. > :36:13.because if you don't define yourself, clearly you are defined by
:36:14. > :36:16.your opponents and that has been the problem. But the point is no one
:36:17. > :36:22.could be Jeremy Corbyn. People have tried twice and he has won twice, so
:36:23. > :36:27.there is nobody. If you look at last time, Owen Smith, and I don't want
:36:28. > :36:32.to attack him, he is a decent guy, somewhere degree but he is, and his
:36:33. > :36:35.position was to try and overturn the result of the EU referendum. That
:36:36. > :36:39.would have been a catastrophic decision for the Labour leadership
:36:40. > :36:43.to have done. He was a credible alternative and I think if people
:36:44. > :36:45.genuinely felt, and if you go back to the first leadership contest,
:36:46. > :36:49.people looked at those candidates and they didn't think the others
:36:50. > :36:54.would win so they thought, I will vote for someone who is closer to
:36:55. > :36:58.what I actually believe. Is there anyone there who could be Jeremy
:36:59. > :37:02.Corbyn? In a leadership contest? We have had to in a very short space of
:37:03. > :37:05.time and it would be ridiculous to have another leadership contest. But
:37:06. > :37:10.you have said he is not the right man to lead the party. Again, if you
:37:11. > :37:15.have a situation where somebody stands against Jeremy Corbyn, we
:37:16. > :37:19.will end up in that... What is that film? Groundhog day, it will get
:37:20. > :37:22.tedious. What has to happen is that Jeremy Corbyn and the leadership
:37:23. > :37:26.have to decide what is the clear vision and strategy and if it
:37:27. > :37:31.doesn't work, they need to reassess the situation. Can Jeremy Corbyn
:37:32. > :37:35.turn it around? I absolutely think he can. Some of Labour Party has
:37:36. > :37:39.been doing in terms of its ground campaign has been a vast improvement
:37:40. > :37:44.over the last few months. I was out in Stoke over two or three different
:37:45. > :37:48.weekends, putting 400, 500 people on the ground are those constituencies
:37:49. > :37:51.is impressive. They are starting to improve the messaging, getting
:37:52. > :37:54.better people into the back office staff. It is clearly a work in
:37:55. > :38:00.progress, I don't think anyone would disagree. Actually, Owen Jones isn't
:38:01. > :38:03.the only former Corbyn is to to become disillusioned. Clive Lewis,
:38:04. > :38:11.Catherine West, Dawn Butler, all disloyal over Brexit. Is it time for
:38:12. > :38:14.a novel left winger to replacing? I agree with Alan, the last thing we
:38:15. > :38:19.need is another leadership election. We plummeted in the polls after two
:38:20. > :38:22.pretty bloodthirsty leadership elections and another one would put
:38:23. > :38:26.the nail into the carpet. Except the polls are as low as they were at the
:38:27. > :38:32.worst time post war for Labour, which was in 1983. All I would say
:38:33. > :38:35.is this, if Labour loser General Election, it will be a calamity for
:38:36. > :38:40.this country, a calamity for the Labour Party and for the people who
:38:41. > :38:43.Labour were set up to represent. So what the Labour leadership have to
:38:44. > :38:47.do is show they have a clear strategy to turn the polling we have
:38:48. > :38:51.discussed and that means saying, look, we have a popular package of
:38:52. > :38:55.policies, how do we communicate them in a way which resonates beyond the
:38:56. > :38:58.people who are fired up and have joined the Labour Party, probably a
:38:59. > :39:02.bit annoyed with me and my parents about some of the things I have said
:39:03. > :39:06.because there is no point in being in politics unless you can achieve
:39:07. > :39:11.power to change Hull transform the country. So how can we get policies
:39:12. > :39:14.across in a way that resonate with people who don't see themselves as
:39:15. > :39:17.left or right wing, everyday people, working with families who are
:39:18. > :39:18.worried about the future. That is the test.
:39:19. > :39:20.Since the referendum, there have been a lot of arguments
:39:21. > :39:24.about whether the vote in favour of Brexit has led to an increase
:39:25. > :39:25.in crimes against immigrants and minority groups,
:39:26. > :39:28.Essex police have questioned whether we can really make a link
:39:29. > :39:30.between that increase and last June's EU referendum.
:39:31. > :39:34.Last October, the Home Office published provisional figures
:39:35. > :39:38.which suggested that the number of hate crimes in July 2016 had been
:39:39. > :39:45.41% higher than a year earlier - identifying a spike post-referendum.
:39:46. > :39:48.Last week, figures from police forces in England and Wales showed
:39:49. > :39:51.unprecedented levels of hate crimes in the three months
:39:52. > :39:56.following the EU referendum - more than 14,000 crimes
:39:57. > :40:00.were recorded between July and September.
:40:01. > :40:03.But now Essex Police has told the Basildon, Convey and Southend Echo
:40:04. > :40:05.that, "There is no evidence to suggest any increase
:40:06. > :40:12."has been specifically and directly caused by any one event or issue."
:40:13. > :40:13.They believe that greater awareness and confidence
:40:14. > :40:17.in the police response was behind the higher figures.
:40:18. > :40:22.We're joined now by Tom Slater from the website, Spiked.
:40:23. > :40:26.Welcome to the programme. The Home Office report last year, although
:40:27. > :40:32.provisional, was pretty clear about a link. It said there was a sharp
:40:33. > :40:34.increase in the number of racially or religiously aggravated offences
:40:35. > :40:38.recorded by the police following the EU referendum. I think there are two
:40:39. > :40:42.reasons we need to be incredibly sceptical in terms of these results.
:40:43. > :40:45.It was clear from the off that there was an element of trawling in
:40:46. > :40:50.relation to how these statistics work. What was the evidence? You had
:40:51. > :40:54.various official bodies, whether it was the Lord Mayor of London's
:40:55. > :40:57.website, the true vision website of the police, calling for people to
:40:58. > :41:00.come forward and the second thing we have to remember is that for
:41:01. > :41:06.something to recorded as a hate crime, all it has to be is alleged,
:41:07. > :41:09.on e-mail, by phone, not even by the people involved, so we need to be
:41:10. > :41:14.sceptical not least because this has been... There had been a Scot
:41:15. > :41:17.macro-delete spike in the increase the same methodology had been used
:41:18. > :41:21.before -- they had a spy. So comparing like the like. You use the
:41:22. > :41:25.incredibly low standard by which these are recorded and the climate
:41:26. > :41:30.encouraging people to come forward, even if it weren't involved, and the
:41:31. > :41:35.tendency to use the statistics to defame Brexit, that should make a
:41:36. > :41:40.sceptical. What is the BBC playing at? Where is the voice representing
:41:41. > :41:46.migrants Chris Rock yesterday, a load of migrants who contributed to
:41:47. > :41:53.the economy, where is their seat in the studio? Way ??DELETE it is yours
:41:54. > :41:57.-- it is your producers or the editor, we are having a debate about
:41:58. > :41:59.migrants and the abuses they are suffering and they are not here. The
:42:00. > :42:03.Metropolitan police, the commissioner himself last year said
:42:04. > :42:07.that the increase in these hate crimes was linked to the aftermath
:42:08. > :42:11.of the referendum and specifically the toxic rhetoric used by
:42:12. > :42:13.politicians. To give you some examples, these are lived
:42:14. > :42:19.experiences, I asked for people to come forward with their experiences.
:42:20. > :42:21.I got hundreds of people. These people overwhelmingly, and the Met
:42:22. > :42:26.said this to come who didn't tell the police. You'd think it has been
:42:27. > :42:31.under recorded. Massively. A former member of the GB rowing team was
:42:32. > :42:35.told "We voted for you to go home." And Exeter University student whose
:42:36. > :42:40.dad owns a mini market, a customer came in and said "This places and
:42:41. > :42:48.let now ours, go back to our country." " people like you should
:42:49. > :42:52.be out of here." "Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, get out." This is not an
:42:53. > :42:54.attack on the vast majority of people who voted Leave, decent
:42:55. > :43:01.people like the people I grew up with in my hometown, they voted to
:43:02. > :43:05.leave, but the tiny group of violent racists and use of racists in this
:43:06. > :43:07.country felt they had a mandate for their behaviour because of the
:43:08. > :43:11.rhetoric of senior politicians. Do you not see there was a license for
:43:12. > :43:15.it, that is what these figures back-up? People felt they had a
:43:16. > :43:20.licence to behave in a way they didn't before, that is what these
:43:21. > :43:23.figures say? I don't doubt for a second that there are horrendous
:43:24. > :43:25.racist figures out there and that things Owen has been talking about
:43:26. > :43:30.should be condemned in the strongest terms, but I am talking about how
:43:31. > :43:33.the statistics could be inflated and the way that becomes exploited. What
:43:34. > :43:38.really shocks me is the way in which the left in particular have been so
:43:39. > :43:41.incredibly willing to go along with this. Historically, left-wing
:43:42. > :43:45.commentators and academics have been very good criticising and being
:43:46. > :43:51.sceptical of crime panics, especially focused around the
:43:52. > :43:54.working class, but I see is this uncritical, swallow it to the end
:43:55. > :43:57.defaming. Is it because it fits a pattern for the left or certain
:43:58. > :44:02.political groups to say of course it is a reaction to Brexit. It is
:44:03. > :44:06.because we have a long-standing history are standing against racism
:44:07. > :44:09.and xenophobia. If the left starts disbelieving the lived experiences
:44:10. > :44:15.of people in this country, it is not the left anymore, it doesn't exist
:44:16. > :44:18.as a force. The left exist to rid society of exploitation, oppression
:44:19. > :44:22.and bigotry and that means listening to people when they are yelled out
:44:23. > :44:25.in the street, when they have people threatening them because of who they
:44:26. > :44:34.are, it means listening to them and taking it seriously. Will you accept
:44:35. > :44:36.that the numbers, the statistics, of a massive -- are massively
:44:37. > :44:40.underrepresented because most people don't come forward, that is what the
:44:41. > :44:45.Met says. No one went to the police here. First and foremost, I'm saying
:44:46. > :44:47.we have to have scepticism in relation to these statistics. This
:44:48. > :44:53.is not the first time that these things can be exploited to be zones,
:44:54. > :44:59.football fans, muggers, all of these things suggest we should be
:45:00. > :45:01.sceptical. Sceptical about people who are coming forward? Sceptical
:45:02. > :45:05.about the way the statistics are gathered. When you look at the
:45:06. > :45:08.graph, the spike is quite marked. It is not that there has been a slow,
:45:09. > :45:13.general increase which might fit with what you are saying. There is a
:45:14. > :45:16.massive spike and even the national police cheese Council says we note
:45:17. > :45:20.in national and global events like Brexit have the potential to Trigger
:45:21. > :45:22.short-term rises in hate crime and we saw this following the
:45:23. > :45:32.referendum. Are I don't doubt there is a small
:45:33. > :45:36.minority in this country who are genuinely hateful and bigoted people
:45:37. > :45:40.who felt emboldened, not least because through the Brexit
:45:41. > :45:47.referendum voting for Leave was a vote for xenophobia or racism. Let's
:45:48. > :45:50.be sceptical about this. If we want a tolerant, pluralist society, as we
:45:51. > :45:54.do, to stir up these divisions amongst the working class is not
:45:55. > :45:59.positive especially when it is based on questionable data. The division
:46:00. > :46:04.is caused by people screaming racist abuse at people in the streets. The
:46:05. > :46:10.people who need to be held account, the vast majority voted Leave are
:46:11. > :46:14.decent people. Do you believe the spike? The Met police says it
:46:15. > :46:19.underestimates the figure. The point I would make is this. There has to
:46:20. > :46:23.be unity in this country. Most people who voted either side port --
:46:24. > :46:27.a port this abuse. We need to bring people together, but the idea that
:46:28. > :46:30.the left should stop listening to people who come forward and say they
:46:31. > :46:34.are facing this abuse and scared about their future, what's the point
:46:35. > :46:38.of being on the left? Just to say the figures have levelled off since
:46:39. > :46:43.then. Do you see that as a positive? There might have been a blip but it
:46:44. > :46:49.has levelled off so there isn't a permanent change of attitude, is the
:46:50. > :46:52.indication. Most people are coming forward. Racism and xenophobia
:46:53. > :46:59.existed before the referendum as well as Africa. But people need to
:47:00. > :47:00.be held account, and media outlets with inflammatory references -- as
:47:01. > :47:02.well as after. On Thursday people in
:47:03. > :47:04.the parliamentary constituency The vacancy was created
:47:05. > :47:08.when the former Labour MP and Jeremy Corbyn critic,
:47:09. > :47:11.Jamie Reed resigned to take up a job Labour have held the seat
:47:12. > :47:14.for more than 80 years. But with a majority of just 2,500
:47:15. > :47:17.over the Conservatives, Jenny Kumah's been there
:47:18. > :47:28.to meet the candidates. Copeland, a mainly rural
:47:29. > :47:30.constituency along It has several claims to fame,
:47:31. > :47:36.like England's highest mountain and England's deepest lake,
:47:37. > :47:39.both in the scenic Lake District. And Sellafield, the biggest nuclear
:47:40. > :47:43.site in Europe and a major employer that looms large
:47:44. > :47:47.on the political map. But could this area soon become
:47:48. > :47:51.famous for ditching decades of support for Labour and delivering
:47:52. > :47:54.the first by-election gain by a governing
:47:55. > :47:58.party since the 1980s? Labour has held this area
:47:59. > :48:02.for nearly 80 years, but in the last General Election,
:48:03. > :48:06.the party beat the Conservatives by just 2,500 votes and with Labour
:48:07. > :48:10.struggling in the polls nationally, the Conservatives are campaigning
:48:11. > :48:12.hard here and aiming Even the Prime Minister has
:48:13. > :48:27.hit the campaign trail, showing a real vote of confidence
:48:28. > :48:29.in the Conservative candidate. Her campaign's focused
:48:30. > :48:31.on Jeremy Corbyn's past Quite frankly, for Jeremy Corbyn
:48:32. > :48:34.to change his stance now in a by-election,
:48:35. > :48:38.when we all know he has campaigned for decades against nuclear,
:48:39. > :48:41.a leopard doesn't change its spots. But she has faced criticism
:48:42. > :48:44.for her campaign material, barely mentioning the potential loss
:48:45. > :48:47.of services like A and maternity I was born at that hospital,
:48:48. > :48:53.my four daughters were We must keep consultant-led
:48:54. > :48:58.maternity, so what I have actually been doing is working
:48:59. > :49:00.with the Minister to identify the problems with recruitment,
:49:01. > :49:03.because that is the real challenge. But can the Conservatives get loyal
:49:04. > :49:07.Labour supporters to switch? The Labour candidate's
:49:08. > :49:10.message is the Tories can't This is the first thing
:49:11. > :49:17.on people's minds. They are worried about
:49:18. > :49:20.investment in this community. Yes, they want investment
:49:21. > :49:25.in schools, in our infrastructure and to make Moorside happen,
:49:26. > :49:33.but the first thing that they want is to keep their
:49:34. > :49:35.health service safe. One of her biggest challenges
:49:36. > :49:37.is convincing the thousands of nuclear workers here
:49:38. > :49:39.that her party's leader I'm behind the nuclear industry, no
:49:40. > :49:44.ifs, no buts and it is Labour Party policy to support new nuclear build
:49:45. > :49:47.to keep the lights on in this country as part
:49:48. > :49:50.of a low carbon energy mix. Ukip are also challenging Labour's
:49:51. > :49:53.traditional dominance in this area. There's no jobs or the heavy
:49:54. > :50:07.manufacturing industry has gone. I think it is time for change,
:50:08. > :50:09.it is time for Ukip. The Liberal Democrats came third
:50:10. > :50:13.in the last General Election here. Their candidate doesn't
:50:14. > :50:15.think her pro-Remain stance Labour has moved to the ideological
:50:16. > :50:21.left, the Tories have moved People in Cumbria want a pragmatic
:50:22. > :50:30.politician from a credible party that will focus on their issues
:50:31. > :50:33.and do an excellent job While all the other party
:50:34. > :50:36.candidates have been highlighting their pro-nuclear
:50:37. > :50:38.credentials, the Greens Their candidate is against
:50:39. > :50:44.the new power station at Moorside. I don't think it's the magic bullet
:50:45. > :50:49.everyone has been led to believe it is and if the nuclear industry
:50:50. > :50:55.had been so good that this area, then why are towns like Whitehaven,
:50:56. > :51:03.why are there so many empty units and why are people so hard
:51:04. > :51:08.up around here and why So what are the key
:51:09. > :51:11.issues for voters? You see the rest of the country,
:51:12. > :51:16.you look at our roads, Before Moorside comes in,
:51:17. > :51:19.we want to hospital, Jobs and infrastructure and roads,
:51:20. > :51:24.that is what is key issues for me. If Labour manage to hang onto this
:51:25. > :51:27.seat, it will be a boost If they don't, questions will be
:51:28. > :51:31.raised about the future of Labour's And a full list of candidates
:51:32. > :51:37.standing in the Copeland by-election MPs are warning the Government isn't
:51:38. > :51:49.doing nearly enough to eliminate Last March, a cross-party committee
:51:50. > :51:57.called for new measures to be brought in to help parents share
:51:58. > :52:02.childcare, to support women returning to work after having
:52:03. > :52:05.children and to address low pay in sectors such as catering,
:52:06. > :52:06.cleaning and caring. The Conservative MP, Maria Miller,
:52:07. > :52:09.who chairs the committee, says most of their recommendations
:52:10. > :52:12.were rejected, and she's urging Well, the Government's
:52:13. > :52:18.focusing its efforts on the gender pay gap reporting,
:52:19. > :52:22.which is really for larger companies, 250 people or more,
:52:23. > :52:27.and I think that's an admirable thing to be doing, but it isn't
:52:28. > :52:30.really tackling the things we raise our report,
:52:31. > :52:32.which is making sure that more people have more
:52:33. > :52:34.access to good quality, flexible working and that shared
:52:35. > :52:37.parental leave for dads is working Neither of those really have been
:52:38. > :52:43.addressed and that's why today we are calling for,
:52:44. > :52:46.really, for people who are affected by this to come together
:52:47. > :52:49.and to call for further action Joining me now is Laura
:52:50. > :53:03.Perrins, the co-editor Should the government focus on
:53:04. > :53:06.abolishing the gender pay gap? Absolutely not. The government
:53:07. > :53:11.should have no interest in using the state to abolish what is basically a
:53:12. > :53:16.Marxist idea that all should be paid exactly the same. Is it a Marxist
:53:17. > :53:20.idea? I don't think it's a Marxist idea. I don't think Maria Miller is
:53:21. > :53:27.a Marxist. I'm glad we have made you laugh. Eradicating Gatting -- gap in
:53:28. > :53:33.how men and women are paid is not Marxist. What we are talking about
:53:34. > :53:36.and what the report talks about is very interesting, that women are
:53:37. > :53:40.disproportionately concentrated in the lowest paid and insecure jobs.
:53:41. > :53:45.And after the first child, the pay gap massively increases. That is a
:53:46. > :53:49.thing with the nature of work. One of the only things I support the
:53:50. > :53:52.Conservative led government is the sharing of the maternity and
:53:53. > :53:57.paternity leave, that is a good thing. But because of the lack of
:53:58. > :53:59.affordable childcare and lack of flexible working, they're often set
:54:00. > :54:04.hours that make it difficult for people to job late career and a
:54:05. > :54:10.child, that means that the pay gap increases after a kid -- to juggle
:54:11. > :54:15.having a career and a child. It is about equality. The equality of
:54:16. > :54:17.opportunity of pay. The equality of opportunity is exactly what any
:54:18. > :54:24.government should strive for, but they should not strive for equality
:54:25. > :54:27.of outcome -- equality. If this says we must show -- close the gender pay
:54:28. > :54:32.gap because we must be paid the same. It's not being paid the same,
:54:33. > :54:41.it's about paying as much as male counterparts. Women are paid for the
:54:42. > :54:45.same hours and things. The gender pay gap only kicks in after the age
:54:46. > :54:50.of 35 and it's a reflection of female preference is to combine work
:54:51. > :54:54.and caring responsibility. That should be celebrated and not
:54:55. > :54:56.stigmatised by the government, especially Conservative government.
:54:57. > :55:00.It makes no sense than to say no one should be caring for their children.
:55:01. > :55:04.Is it about female preferences? We know there is a cliff edge where
:55:05. > :55:08.women go off to have children, and even if they wanted or didn't want
:55:09. > :55:12.to come back and come back into work and earn the same rate of pay, is a
:55:13. > :55:17.matter problem that a lot of women choose to stay at home and would
:55:18. > :55:21.like to stay at home? Lots of people would like to juggle their career
:55:22. > :55:26.with having children. The problem we have in this country is that if you
:55:27. > :55:29.were born a woman, you for more likely to end up being paid
:55:30. > :55:40.significantly less than if you are a man. Is not fair. -- it is not fair.
:55:41. > :55:46.I'm not saying everybody should get ?30,000 on it be a flat salary. The
:55:47. > :55:51.gap is a reflection of preferences. We are looking at other countries,
:55:52. > :55:55.particularly Nordic countries which have more affordable childcare. They
:55:56. > :55:59.have flexible working. That enables women to juggle, as a preference,
:56:00. > :56:03.caring for children, which should also be a male responsibility. In
:56:04. > :56:09.those countries thereon more women in work. Is that the contradiction
:56:10. > :56:14.about female preferences. In many cases it isn't a preference. If
:56:15. > :56:18.there's not enough affordable childcare and fathers don't have the
:56:19. > :56:22.facility to take paid leave that would give women more opportunity,
:56:23. > :56:25.is that the point, that you are only representing a small number of
:56:26. > :56:28.people all women who prefer and choose to do what you suggest and
:56:29. > :56:33.there are many others that can't because there are the sorts of
:56:34. > :56:37.things available. There are women who combine work and a career and
:56:38. > :56:43.any gap that exists is mainly due to female preferences. What do you base
:56:44. > :56:49.that on? The Nordic example always comes on but it's a very stratified
:56:50. > :56:52.system and women are still, if you compare it across, they are paid
:56:53. > :56:58.less than men and take up part-time jobs and take on caring roles that
:56:59. > :57:02.the stake -- state have taken over. What is the gap in the Nordic
:57:03. > :57:06.countries? I think you'll find it's closer than it is here. But that is
:57:07. > :57:11.a big state, and that is what you want. You want a big state and the
:57:12. > :57:15.state meddling in everybody's decisions and meddling in the family
:57:16. > :57:21.and supplementing everybody's income. As a Conservative, they
:57:22. > :57:24.believe in a small state. But it's a Conservative government doing it.
:57:25. > :57:30.They can be delusion about things, and that is one here. I just think
:57:31. > :57:35.it should be a more equal society in men and women should have a less gap
:57:36. > :57:42.in their pay. So you want equality of outcome? More state. I don't want
:57:43. > :57:49.women to end up being paid less than men in this country. That's why it's
:57:50. > :57:52.a pragmatic approach, we should have childcare that people can afford as
:57:53. > :58:00.well as flexible working. There is flexible working. We want more
:58:01. > :58:04.flexible working. You for choice, individual choice, and that's what
:58:05. > :58:12.arguing for. You're up for state intervention. You are into state
:58:13. > :58:20.meddling and bullying of families. How are mothers being bullied? If
:58:21. > :58:24.they have childcare and the state system loaded against caring for
:58:25. > :58:32.your children. It's about allowing the individual to choose. A woman
:58:33. > :58:36.who wants to choose, that individual human freedom, where they can choose
:58:37. > :58:40.to have a career and not be penalised and have a family, but you
:58:41. > :58:45.are at war with individual choice. I am going to make an equal outcome
:58:46. > :58:48.here, as you have the same amount of time. That's it for today.
:58:49. > :58:52.The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:53. > :58:55.I'll be back at 11:30am tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage