:00:00. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.Civil War breaks out in Ukip as Nigel Farage calls
:00:43. > :00:47.for their only MP to be kicked out for undermining him and the party.
:00:48. > :00:52.After failing to win in Stoke, is it all unravelling for Ukip?
:00:53. > :00:54.John Major says Britons are being offered an "unreal
:00:55. > :00:57.and over-optimistic" vision of what Brexit will deliver,
:00:58. > :00:59.but were these just the pronouncements of a bitter
:01:00. > :01:05.And it's the annual parliamentary pancake race.
:01:06. > :01:07.Who will flip themselves to victory - the press,
:01:08. > :01:13.It's Downton Abbey meets Yesterday in Parliament -
:01:14. > :01:19.the House of Lords opens its doors to a BBC documentary crew.
:01:20. > :01:21.Has it revealed itself as a charming old relic that's
:01:22. > :01:36.A bit tight at the moment, as you can see.
:01:37. > :01:44.And with us for the whole of the programme today
:01:45. > :01:47.is the former editor-in-chief of the Wall Street Journal and now
:01:48. > :01:48.a Conservative peer, Patience Wheatcroft.
:01:49. > :01:54.First this morning, Brexit may have blown austerity off the front pages,
:01:55. > :01:57.but a reminder today that Britain is still living with a substantial
:01:58. > :01:58.deficit which the Government has pledged to eliminate.
:01:59. > :02:01.Government departments have been asked to find further
:02:02. > :02:03.budget cuts of up to 6%, to begin taking effect
:02:04. > :02:10.The Treasury has written to every department in Whitehall as part
:02:11. > :02:13.of its plan to find ?3.5 billion of savings in the year before
:02:14. > :02:19.Here's the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, earlier today.
:02:20. > :02:23.Only five months ago, the Chancellor and the Prime Minister were telling
:02:24. > :02:25.us, or indicating, that austerity was virtually coming to an end.
:02:26. > :02:29.What this means is deeper cuts and for longer.
:02:30. > :02:31.The Government has said actually schools and hospitals
:02:32. > :02:36.The NHS is suffering the biggest crisis since its foundation,
:02:37. > :02:39.with patients being treated on trolleys.
:02:40. > :02:43.Schools having the first budget cuts per head since the 1970s.
:02:44. > :02:56.Does this continuation of austerity showed the policies of the last
:02:57. > :03:02.seven years have failed to repair the economy? No, it shows there is
:03:03. > :03:05.still further to go. We did not have all that much austerity which was
:03:06. > :03:10.the right recipe, given what was going on in the world and the
:03:11. > :03:15.difficulties facing the economy. But there is no scope not to continue
:03:16. > :03:21.looking for cuts. Philip Hammond has been sensible. He knows any business
:03:22. > :03:25.can always find more efficiencies. Can they? Looking at local councils,
:03:26. > :03:29.they say they have been stripped to the bone and we have seen stories
:03:30. > :03:34.week after week about the crisis, as they would see it, in social care.
:03:35. > :03:38.Some of the savings they make will be given back to them to fund social
:03:39. > :03:42.care, as I understand it. There is a need. We are seeing what really
:03:43. > :03:48.needs to be done is melding the health service with social care and
:03:49. > :03:53.where it really works, it makes big improvements and savings. You say
:03:54. > :03:58.austerity needs to continue and there was not enough austerity
:03:59. > :04:02.though it was right at the time, we still have a substantial deficit and
:04:03. > :04:05.the Conservatives promised it would have gone by now. Their policies
:04:06. > :04:10.must have failed, they did not achieve what they have set out to
:04:11. > :04:13.do? Circumstances changed, the environment was far more difficult
:04:14. > :04:19.than anyone imagined when they came into power. The financial crisis and
:04:20. > :04:24.its ramifications lasted for a lot longer than people had expected. I
:04:25. > :04:26.do not think you can blame the previous administration for not
:04:27. > :04:31.getting Warrington Town, as they would have wished. Philip Hammond
:04:32. > :04:42.has said he would push back the target -- getting Warrington Town.
:04:43. > :04:48.-- borrowing down. The announcement was not done publicly. Is that
:04:49. > :04:53.really the right way to deal with these sorts of important decisions?
:04:54. > :04:58.I think it is a fairly usual way and I do not think we should spend too
:04:59. > :05:02.long thinking about what Labour's reaction is because we know all John
:05:03. > :05:07.McDonnell wants to do is borrow and that is not the answer to anybody's
:05:08. > :05:11.problems. Philip Hammond has said ?1 billion of the savings, up to that,
:05:12. > :05:16.will be reinvested rather than being used to reduce the deficit.
:05:17. > :05:21.Absolutely the right thing to do. We will be feeling some pain but I
:05:22. > :05:26.think the Chancellor is right to say there are some areas where we need
:05:27. > :05:28.to continue investing. Infrastructure is another. The
:05:29. > :05:30.Government will continue to invest. That is the right thing to do for
:05:31. > :05:34.the long-term. The question for today is,
:05:35. > :05:42.who has been spying on the BBC? Was it Donald Trump,
:05:43. > :05:44.Sky News, the German intelligence agency,
:05:45. > :05:46.the BND, or North Korea? At the end of the show,
:05:47. > :05:49.Patience will give us Now, just days after the disastrous
:05:50. > :05:52.result for Ukip in the Stoke by-election, this morning,
:05:53. > :05:55.the ongoing row within the party has exploded onto the front page
:05:56. > :05:59.of the Daily Telegraph. The former leader, Nigel Farage,
:06:00. > :06:02.has written an article calling for the resignation of the party's
:06:03. > :06:05.only MP, Douglas Carswell. Douglas Carswell became Ukip's
:06:06. > :06:12.first MP when he defected from the Conservatives at the end
:06:13. > :06:16.of August, 2014. But things turned sour
:06:17. > :06:20.when Douglas Carswell criticised Ukip's 2015
:06:21. > :06:25.general election campaign. Nigel Farage suggested in a TV
:06:26. > :06:28.debate that foreigners with HIV It was part of a strategy
:06:29. > :06:36.dubbed "shock and awful". Mr Carswell said the comments
:06:37. > :06:41.were "mean-spirited and wrong". Then, during the EU referendum
:06:42. > :06:45.campaign, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign,
:06:46. > :06:49.whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official
:06:50. > :06:51.Vote Leave campaign. And today, writing in
:06:52. > :06:55.the Daily Telegraph, Nigel Farage has said,
:06:56. > :07:00."There is little future for Ukip with him staying inside the party.
:07:01. > :07:03.The time for him to go is now." Mr Farage claims that
:07:04. > :07:05.Douglas Carswell tried to thwart his chances
:07:06. > :07:10.of being awarded a knighthood. In leaked emails, Mr Carswell
:07:11. > :07:15.appears to mock Mr Farage's chances of receiving an honour,
:07:16. > :07:17.suggesting he could get one instead Earlier this morning, Ellie caught
:07:18. > :07:24.up with Ukip's former leader. Quick question - Aaron Banks
:07:25. > :07:30.or Douglas Carswell in Clacton, Oh, that doesn't take much
:07:31. > :07:36.working out, doesn't it? No, but what is your message
:07:37. > :07:38.to Douglas Carswell? He's tried to undermine
:07:39. > :07:48.everything we've stood for, for a very long time,
:07:49. > :07:48.in terms of policy, in terms of campaigns,
:07:49. > :07:49.and we should have dealt with this But look, it's not up
:07:50. > :07:56.to me, it's up to them. But I do not think that to have
:07:57. > :07:59.somebody representing you in the House of Commons who has
:08:00. > :08:01.a different policy agenda Do you think you deserve
:08:02. > :08:05.a knighthood or...? What's of interest is,
:08:06. > :08:11.when I try and do my job as Ukip leader and get undermined the whole
:08:12. > :08:14.time and then when Paul Nuttall tries to do his job and gets
:08:15. > :08:19.undermined, that's what matters. I'm joined now from Cardiff
:08:20. > :08:22.by the Ukip Assembly Member and economic spokesperson,
:08:23. > :08:31.Mark Reckless. You have just heard Nigel Farage
:08:32. > :08:37.calling for Douglas Carswell to be sacked as the party's MP. What is
:08:38. > :08:41.your reaction? We have to support our new leader Paul Nuttall.
:08:42. > :08:45.Ex-leaders will always have a voice through the media. We heard from
:08:46. > :08:51.John Major yesterday. I do not think any honour could reflect the
:08:52. > :08:56.enormity of Nigel's achievements. The new leader cannot give way to
:08:57. > :09:01.ultimatums that so and so should be chairman or someone should be thrown
:09:02. > :09:06.out, he has to lead the party in his own way and I want to get behind
:09:07. > :09:09.him. The UK party chairman is said to be meeting with Douglas Carswell
:09:10. > :09:14.this afternoon to discuss it. What do you think that means? I hope it
:09:15. > :09:18.is a productive meeting. Our only MP should meet with our party Chairman
:09:19. > :09:24.of course. Is it as the result of Nigel Farage calling for him to go?
:09:25. > :09:28.I have no idea what the meeting will be about but I do not think there is
:09:29. > :09:33.any exceptional about our chairmen meeting our MP. We should, this
:09:34. > :09:38.down. We should not have personal attacks. It is not fair for you to
:09:39. > :09:42.say our performance in Stoke was disastrous. We had a quarter of the
:09:43. > :09:45.vote. Before the by-elections, it would have been inconceivable for
:09:46. > :09:55.Ukip to get that. We sought at that time of our by-elections, at the
:09:56. > :09:59.time of the by-election, I hope we would widen our appeal, yes, talking
:10:00. > :10:03.about immigration, but also widening our appeal to talk about the NHS and
:10:04. > :10:09.one of the things I'm doing at the moment is trying to cut VAT on some
:10:10. > :10:13.of the key essentials. Perhaps what is preventing you talking about the
:10:14. > :10:17.things you have just outlined is what is going on between Nigel
:10:18. > :10:22.Farage and Douglas Carswell. Is your former leader conducting himself in
:10:23. > :10:26.a way that you deem acceptable and appropriate? It is for Nigel to
:10:27. > :10:32.judge what he wants to say and he will always have a voice in the
:10:33. > :10:35.media but I think Ukip is about more than whether one person, even the
:10:36. > :10:41.ex-leader such as Nigel, should have a knighthood. Douglas has pushed
:10:42. > :10:45.hard but Ukip should have its fair share of peerages. It is disgraceful
:10:46. > :10:50.we have two chambers and one of those... Why is Nigel Farage
:10:51. > :10:54.accusing Douglas Carswell of not doing enough to secure the
:10:55. > :11:00.knighthood and asking for him to go? I think Douglas's focus and I know
:11:01. > :11:05.he met the Chief Whip and others and he has campaigned for a long time
:11:06. > :11:10.publicly and in private is that Ukip should be given fair representation
:11:11. > :11:14.in our legislature. So Nigel is wrong? It is outrageous we do not
:11:15. > :11:20.have peers in the House of Lords. We need to focus on our core message,
:11:21. > :11:23.not just controlling and reducing immigration, but improving the NHS
:11:24. > :11:30.and pushing forward on the economy. When we spoke to Nigel Farage just
:11:31. > :11:34.now, he is convinced Douglas Carswell is bent on a campaign of
:11:35. > :11:43.undermining him and dividing the party. Why? Nigel is the ex-leader,
:11:44. > :11:46.we have had a referendum, we won the referendum and Nigel paid tribute to
:11:47. > :11:53.Douglas in his article saying that Douglas had single-handedly got the
:11:54. > :11:57.nomination for the referendum... Why is he calling for him to go? We're
:11:58. > :12:03.leaving the EU, hopefully within a few weeks, we will trigger Article
:12:04. > :12:08.50, fantastic news. What Paul Nuttall will do is stake out the
:12:09. > :12:12.domestic agenda, make sure Brexit happens and it happens properly, but
:12:13. > :12:17.also, what will we do to improve the NHS? You have said he is the
:12:18. > :12:20.ex-leader and will always have a voice in the media, in other words,
:12:21. > :12:24.you do not think he should be speaking on behalf of the party.
:12:25. > :12:30.Should Paul Nuttall just ignore Nigel Farage? The gauntlet has been
:12:31. > :12:35.laid down and at some point Paul will speak to the party and he will
:12:36. > :12:39.do interviews and he needs to decide his priorities and where he wants to
:12:40. > :12:43.lead us. I cannot see how he can possibly give way to an ultimatum he
:12:44. > :12:48.should purge a certain list of people or put a particular person as
:12:49. > :12:52.German... You cannot run a party in that way. I know Paul Nuttall
:12:53. > :12:55.respects our members and activists and leads a Democratic party and I
:12:56. > :13:01.believe he is a strong leader who will focus on the key issues such as
:13:02. > :13:04.the NHS and the economy as well as immigration, and making sure Brexit
:13:05. > :13:06.does mean proper Brexit where we once again govern ourselves. Thank
:13:07. > :13:08.you very much. And I'm joined now by
:13:09. > :13:17.Michael Heaver, Nigel Farage's Why should Douglas Carswell go? When
:13:18. > :13:20.he first joined Ukip, there was mass of excitement in the party and it
:13:21. > :13:25.quickly disappeared. I will give you one example, December the 18th,
:13:26. > :13:29.2015, David Cameron had been at the EU summit we wanted to get on the
:13:30. > :13:35.front foot, Douglas Carswell that they chose to save Ukip needed to
:13:36. > :13:48.have a new leader. What we have seen is a concerted sustained effort to
:13:49. > :13:53.infiltrate Ukip from within. We have had people coming into the party to
:13:54. > :13:56.deliberately trying to take Ukip and Nigel Farage out of the referendum
:13:57. > :14:03.campaign because they deem them to be toxic. We know it is not true. We
:14:04. > :14:07.know that it was the immigration issue that won the day. These people
:14:08. > :14:12.viewed Ukip and Nigel Farage as something to be dealt with and it
:14:13. > :14:17.was... You think it is a conspiracy akin to the KGB that has been led by
:14:18. > :14:27.Douglas Carswell? This is on record. He is Ukip's only MP. It is in Owen
:14:28. > :14:32.Bennett... Are you becoming a conspiracy theorist? It is fact.
:14:33. > :14:37.There are people on the Tories party and the side who saw Nigel Farage as
:14:38. > :14:41.a threat, they saw the immigration issue as a link to be avoided. They
:14:42. > :14:48.have not shut him up. They never will. The evidence can you say, is
:14:49. > :14:54.clear. Isn't it just a spat between two grown men who hold different
:14:55. > :15:00.views within the same party, end of? No, this is about the future of Ukip
:15:01. > :15:03.and Paul Nuttall has come in, we had the Stoke by-election, disappointing
:15:04. > :15:07.performance for the party, no denying that. Whose fault was that?
:15:08. > :15:16.Allan McGregor party was on the back foot a bit too much. -- the party.
:15:17. > :15:20.Aaron Banks has said this, they need to start pushing policy, come up
:15:21. > :15:25.with new ideas. English Parliament, proportional representation. As well
:15:26. > :15:28.as owning the immigration issue. Is it still just about immigration? We
:15:29. > :15:33.have heard successive Ukip politicians say that Ukip is broader
:15:34. > :15:37.than immigration but if you listen to Nigel Farage, that does not seem
:15:38. > :15:42.to be the case, he disagrees with Douglas Carswell's views on
:15:43. > :15:46.immigration. It is still very high up the agenda and the Tory party has
:15:47. > :15:52.wrote back saying post Brexit we may have to continue mass immigration.
:15:53. > :15:57.The party has to establish is off on a wider range of issues and overall
:15:58. > :16:03.it has to stay radical and get on the front foot. Do you think Nigel
:16:04. > :16:07.Farage himself, the ex-leader, is he just undermining Paul Nuttall's
:16:08. > :16:12.leadership and the party by the escalation of the war of words? He
:16:13. > :16:18.has devoted most of his adult life to Ukip. It is something he cares
:16:19. > :16:25.deeply about. If you contribute to it -- is he contributing to it now?
:16:26. > :16:29.He is pointing out the things he thinks are wrong with the party. Of
:16:30. > :16:36.course he is going to want to see it progress in an effective way.
:16:37. > :16:43.This is the e-mail exchange. This is about making a plea for a knighthood
:16:44. > :16:48.for Nigel Farage. The e-mail shows clearly Carswell did make a plea to
:16:49. > :16:54.Gavin Williamson at the time in the Government and that he makes a joke
:16:55. > :16:58.admittedly, afterwards. Is Nigel Farage being thin-skinned? I don't
:16:59. > :17:03.think so. Lord Pearson, no one has a bad word to say about the guy, he
:17:04. > :17:06.even says to The Telegraph today that he feels Carswell didn't give
:17:07. > :17:09.his backing to this. I think it's a shame. The potential for Douglas to
:17:10. > :17:13.have been a positive contribution to the party was there. It's been
:17:14. > :17:17.squandered and it was squandered because this is about personality,
:17:18. > :17:21.people want to stop Nigel and weaken Ukip's voice in the referendum. It
:17:22. > :17:24.thankfully failed but we are still seeing the fallout. Ukip have
:17:25. > :17:27.achieved their goal of the referendum and got the result they
:17:28. > :17:31.wanted. What do you think the future holds for the party now? They're now
:17:32. > :17:36.a party without a purpose. That's why you can see they are
:17:37. > :17:41.degenerating into this sort of trivial playground infighting. There
:17:42. > :17:44.isn't a role for Ukip any longer. The Conservative Party have been
:17:45. > :17:47.saying ten, 20 years there is no role for Ukip. I have also heard at
:17:48. > :17:50.every by-election and European by-election and general election
:17:51. > :17:53.that Ukip's job is over and it's never going to progress from where
:17:54. > :17:56.it is now. I don't think the establishment's record on calling
:17:57. > :18:00.the prospects of the future of Ukip are strong. I think for Ukip to have
:18:01. > :18:06.a future and it is at a cross-roads, it must be radical and must talk
:18:07. > :18:07.about things like English parliament, proportional
:18:08. > :18:13.representation and getting rid of the House of Lords. You are trying
:18:14. > :18:16.to come up with policies out of thin -- thin air. We had a full manifesto
:18:17. > :18:18.at the last general election. We will end it there, thank you very
:18:19. > :18:19.much. There are currently 650 seats
:18:20. > :18:22.in the House of Commons. By the next election,
:18:23. > :18:25.that number will be reduced to 600. In a giant game of musical chairs,
:18:26. > :18:29.the Boundary Commission for England and Wales is deciding which seats
:18:30. > :18:31.will disappear and what the new constituency
:18:32. > :18:34.boundaries will look like. Labour have accused
:18:35. > :18:39.the government of gerrymandering. Well, Sam Hartley joins us now,
:18:40. > :18:42.he's from the Boundary Commission for England, who are today
:18:43. > :18:54.launching their second consultation What are you hoping to achieve, Sam?
:18:55. > :18:57.Well, thank you, Jo, today marks the start of the second stage of the
:18:58. > :19:01.boundary commission for England's review. And the boundary review
:19:02. > :19:04.across the UK as a whole. In September I told you all about the
:19:05. > :19:07.first cut, the first set of boundaries we proposed and we
:19:08. > :19:12.consulted on those for 12 weeks until December. We had an incredible
:19:13. > :19:17.amount of response from the general public, nearly 20,000
:19:18. > :19:19.representations put in to us and really impassioned, well-argued,
:19:20. > :19:23.well-evidenced representations put to us in those 12-week periods and
:19:24. > :19:26.we travelled the country and heard from people direct at public events
:19:27. > :19:30.everywhere. Today is all about publishing what people have said and
:19:31. > :19:33.asking the public to look at that and look at the different and
:19:34. > :19:36.individual submissions people made to us and tell us where they agree
:19:37. > :19:39.and where they don't agree. All of that evidence will take into account
:19:40. > :19:43.before we come up with any revisions to proposals. When will we know
:19:44. > :19:47.exactly which seats are going to be taken off the electoral map? Well,
:19:48. > :19:51.our final recommendations will go to parliament in September 2018. A
:19:52. > :19:55.little bit more to go through this stage. What happens after today, for
:19:56. > :19:57.four weeks we are consulting on those 20,000-odd representations
:19:58. > :20:01.that I told you about. We will then take all of the evidence that we
:20:02. > :20:04.received back in the autumn of last year and also in the next four weeks
:20:05. > :20:08.and our commissioners will work and drill into the detail of the
:20:09. > :20:13.community-based arguments people have put to us. If we then want to
:20:14. > :20:16.revise our proposals we will consult on those later in 2017 before we
:20:17. > :20:21.will report to parliament in September 2018. What do you say to
:20:22. > :20:25.criticism that you are using an outdated electoral register, the one
:20:26. > :20:29.from 2015 and not the updated one post the EU referendum? It's a
:20:30. > :20:32.technical answer I am afraid, it's the law. The commission doesn't have
:20:33. > :20:36.scope to change that set of data. There has to be a cut somewhere so
:20:37. > :20:41.there has to be a point where we say that's the data we are using so
:20:42. > :20:45.everyone knows exactly what data they're working from. The law
:20:46. > :20:46.dictates to us and it's that September 2015 register. Thank you
:20:47. > :20:48.investment. And we're joined now
:20:49. > :20:50.by the Labour MP Stephen Kinnock and the Conservative MP,
:20:51. > :20:53.John Penrose, who as a minister was the architect of
:20:54. > :20:58.some of these changes. Welcome to the programme. You used
:20:59. > :21:01.to be the Government Minister responsible for precisely these
:21:02. > :21:08.changes, what do you say to the charge that you have used this as a
:21:09. > :21:10.mechanism for the convenience of the Conservative Party and
:21:11. > :21:14.Jerrymannedering? It's hard to argue it is that if you are making the
:21:15. > :21:17.constituencies all the same size so each individual vote has the same
:21:18. > :21:20.weight no matter where you are in the country. It's making the system
:21:21. > :21:24.a great deal fairer. It is really important that we don't delay longer
:21:25. > :21:28.because you mentioned that the electoral registers used were done
:21:29. > :21:32.in 2015. At the moment the existing boundaries are done on the basis of
:21:33. > :21:35.electoral registers from 2001. They're out of date. By the time of
:21:36. > :21:38.the next general election they're going to be almost 20 years old. We
:21:39. > :21:42.have to get on with this. We can do it more frequently in future. We
:21:43. > :21:45.probably need to do it every five years, that's what's planned so
:21:46. > :21:48.there won't be long gaps but we have to keep this more up to date. What's
:21:49. > :21:52.wrong with making constituencies roughly the same size The
:21:53. > :21:55.Conservatives know there is a disproportionate number of Labour
:21:56. > :22:02.seats which are relatively small and that's why this is a jerrymander.
:22:03. > :22:07.It's about eliminating those seats. They've set a marrow margin of plus
:22:08. > :22:11.or minus 5%. That could have been set at plus or minus 10% in order to
:22:12. > :22:14.have more flexibility when you set the seats and also to give - to
:22:15. > :22:17.avoid these bizarre situations where, for example, in my
:22:18. > :22:21.constituency, a constituency line is going through the middle of the
:22:22. > :22:24.shopping centre with one, the high street in one constituency, and the
:22:25. > :22:27.shopping centre in another. Presumably they're consulting on
:22:28. > :22:30.that? They're consulting but the proposals - it's disrespectful to
:22:31. > :22:34.local communities. Looking at the figures and work that's been done,
:22:35. > :22:39.Labour are going to lose 13% of their seats and the Tories are going
:22:40. > :22:42.to lose 4. 5% of theirs. Are you saying there is no political
:22:43. > :22:47.motivation behind this? Well, I am not going to make apology for
:22:48. > :22:51.getting equal votes... It just so happen it is will benefit the
:22:52. > :22:55.Conservatives? I think with all due respect to Stephen he is giving the
:22:56. > :22:59.game away. Labour has had an inbuilt advantage under the old system
:23:00. > :23:02.because it is out of date. They want to preserve that inbuilt unfair
:23:03. > :23:06.advantage. Hanging on to an unfair advantage is not right. It has been
:23:07. > :23:09.an unfair advantage, hasn't it, because if you look at the different
:23:10. > :23:13.sizes of constituency constitutes, if Labour has more seats that are
:23:14. > :23:16.below the average size then that is unfair too, in exactly the same way
:23:17. > :23:22.you are accusing John of being? Well, I think you have to adjust the
:23:23. > :23:29.system in a way which doesn't make it look like a gerrymander. Do you
:23:30. > :23:33.think there was an advantage The demographics of the country have led
:23:34. > :23:36.to larger numbers of Labour constituencies having smaller
:23:37. > :23:40.numbers. The way you adjust that is not by having a tight margin around
:23:41. > :23:45.the electoral quota, make it more than 5%. What I think it also
:23:46. > :23:48.reflects is a worrying trend of this Government towards moving towards an
:23:49. > :23:51.elective dictatorship. They've done the trade union legislation which is
:23:52. > :23:54.massively undermining the Labour Party. They had to be dragged
:23:55. > :24:00.kicking and screaming by the courts to come and talk about Brexit. And
:24:01. > :24:05.now we see these boundary reviews. I think there is a pattern emerging
:24:06. > :24:09.here, which is Theresa May's Downing Street is about control freakery and
:24:10. > :24:13.steam-rollering the opposition out of the way. Or the opposition hasn't
:24:14. > :24:17.been strong enough until now to challenge that? That's probably a
:24:18. > :24:25.subject for another interview, Jo. Right. Just, but answer the charge
:24:26. > :24:28.that Theresa May is, you know, adopting control freakery at Number
:24:29. > :24:31.10 and steam-rollering the opposition and putting through
:24:32. > :24:35.undemocratic proposals? Normally if you get that sort of charge it's not
:24:36. > :24:38.directed against a Government that has a majority of 12. It's finely
:24:39. > :24:43.balanced in parliament at the moment. It isn't that we have 100
:24:44. > :24:47.vote majority, 100 more MPs than anybody else like Tony Blair had and
:24:48. > :24:52.we can ram through whatever we like F we get this wrong there is scope
:24:53. > :24:56.for difficulties in parliament. One might say that with the position in
:24:57. > :25:00.Scotland for the Labour Party, your loss in Copeland, is this the sort
:25:01. > :25:05.of last-ditch attempt of a desperate party? No, I think it's pointing out
:25:06. > :25:10.that we have got to have a fair way of doing things and the vast number
:25:11. > :25:13.of additional registrations that came from the referendum should be
:25:14. > :25:17.taken into account. There is also this argument about the cost. But
:25:18. > :25:20.with Brexit we are losing our MEPs and a huge number of powers and
:25:21. > :25:23.responsibilities are coming back to the British parliament. The great
:25:24. > :25:28.repeal bill is going to be a huge undertaking. This Government is
:25:29. > :25:31.looking to steam-roler it through with statutory instruments and other
:25:32. > :25:38.tools and it's worrying for the future of our democracy. On the
:25:39. > :25:42.issue of gerrymanderring and the boundaries, if it looks as if the
:25:43. > :25:48.Government is being unfair that will not help them in their plea to reset
:25:49. > :25:52.constitutionally how we elect MPs. There will always be winners and
:25:53. > :25:56.loses in any boundary changes. It's not surprising that Stephen is
:25:57. > :26:00.looking at that and conflating all sorts of other complaints about the
:26:01. > :26:03.Government into this issue when it's a very separate one. It's been
:26:04. > :26:08.running for a long time and the boundary commission is independent.
:26:09. > :26:12.There have been extensive consultations and now another
:26:13. > :26:16.consultation T needs to be done. What can be unfair about having
:26:17. > :26:21.equal constitutes? Except, although I take the point about it being the
:26:22. > :26:24.law, should you have not have changed the law before conducting
:26:25. > :26:28.this massive constitutional reform so that you didn't ex-included two
:26:29. > :26:32.million voters from this process by using an old register? Well, as I
:26:33. > :26:37.said, the register that's being used for the existing boundaries is even
:26:38. > :26:41.older, it's back from... That's not a justification. Two wrongs don't
:26:42. > :26:45.make a right. It means in future we need to not let the gap be so wide.
:26:46. > :26:49.That's still not answering the question about the problem now.
:26:50. > :26:52.Well, we can't unpick that now and go back. You take primary
:26:53. > :26:59.legislation and effectively what people who are suggesting this mean
:27:00. > :27:02.is they need a primary - an act of partment which would mean that the
:27:03. > :27:05.boundaries wouldn't happen until after the next general election, I
:27:06. > :27:11.am sure they don't mean that to happen. If you delay it any further
:27:12. > :27:15.it will be even more outdated When the facts change, I change my mind,
:27:16. > :27:19.what do you do? There is a huge fact on the ground which is there are two
:27:20. > :27:22.million extra voters, the benchmark being used for this exercise is
:27:23. > :27:27.wrong and it's being used because there is a hidden agenda. There are
:27:28. > :27:31.suggestions that supporters of Jeremy Corbyn within the Labour
:27:32. > :27:38.Party could use this as an excuse to get rid of some of the more send
:27:39. > :27:42.terrorist Labour MPs. -- centrist MPs. We take our chances and we are
:27:43. > :27:47.there to fight our corner. We fight for our constituents and that's what
:27:48. > :27:52.I am doing here. This, I am trying to be here the voice of my
:27:53. > :27:56.constitutes who have been deeply disrespected by a boundary review
:27:57. > :27:59.which is ramming on the basis of a maths formula, a boundary line
:28:00. > :28:04.across hundreds of years of history of our community. It's completely
:28:05. > :28:09.unacceptable. I have some sympathy with Stephen on the particular case
:28:10. > :28:11.specific point, that's what the independent boundary commission will
:28:12. > :28:14.need to listen to from anybody around the country who has that
:28:15. > :28:17.concern about their specific boundaries and they will want to
:28:18. > :28:18.take that into account, that's perfectly legitimate. Thank you both
:28:19. > :28:21.very much. Now, you may remember that
:28:22. > :28:23.recently Tony Blair urged the British people to rise up
:28:24. > :28:25.and change their mind about Brexit. Well, last night his predecessor
:28:26. > :28:28.John Major joined the fray, using a speech at the think-tank
:28:29. > :28:30.Chatham House to offer what he called a reality check
:28:31. > :28:34.on the difficulties ahead. The former Prime Minister said
:28:35. > :28:37.the costs of leaving would be substantial and unpalatable,
:28:38. > :28:43.with little chance we could replicate the advantages of single
:28:44. > :28:47.market access after Brexit. The British people have been led
:28:48. > :28:50.to expect a future that seems to be Obstacles are brushed aside
:28:51. > :28:56.as if of no consequence, whilst opportunities are inflated
:28:57. > :29:01.beyond any reasonable A little more charm and a lot less
:29:02. > :29:10.cheap rhetoric would do much to protect the interests
:29:11. > :29:22.of the United Kingdom. Well, to discuss this we're joined
:29:23. > :29:27.by the Conservative MP and leading Patience Wheatcroft,
:29:28. > :29:30.who is a remain supporter and the only Conservative peer
:29:31. > :29:33.to vote for Britain to stay in the single market in the House
:29:34. > :29:41.of Lords last night, What did you make of his speech? I
:29:42. > :29:47.rather agree with him about a couple of points which were buried in the
:29:48. > :29:52.thunder of lightning -- thunder and lightning. We need to be mindful of
:29:53. > :29:56.the risks and we need to talk with a generosity of spirit with our
:29:57. > :30:05.European friends. I wrote a column in the Daily Telegraph this morning.
:30:06. > :30:10.I said both of those points. With great respect to supporters of
:30:11. > :30:13.remainer and John Major, the way it was done, it felt like a full
:30:14. > :30:18.frontal assault on the Government strategy, we note he disagrees with
:30:19. > :30:22.Brexit, but on ministers and the government, weeks before the
:30:23. > :30:28.triggering of Article 50. I respect that arguments on the substance but
:30:29. > :30:31.the man was not just unhelpful but responsible. We need to make sure it
:30:32. > :30:37.does not eclipse the sensible and positive arguments people want to
:30:38. > :30:41.contribute and I sat in the Commons among a lot of the remain MPs and
:30:42. > :30:44.listened carefully to the likes of Dominic Grieve and we need to
:30:45. > :30:51.continue to do that. What do you say in response to that, the timing,
:30:52. > :30:54.just ahead of Article 50 being triggered and extremely personal?
:30:55. > :30:57.For those of us who voted remain and still believed it would have been
:30:58. > :31:04.the right thing for the country to do, we are being silenced by the
:31:05. > :31:09.levers and the Government is really being intimidating in its approach.
:31:10. > :31:17.When Theresa May came and sat down in the Lords, there was a message,
:31:18. > :31:20.behave yourselves, or else. It was quite right John Major, former Prime
:31:21. > :31:24.Minister, should say what he believes, and I think he is
:31:25. > :31:29.absolutely right that we are being sold, as we were in the lead up to
:31:30. > :31:34.the referendum, an entirely false picture of what life will be like
:31:35. > :31:37.when we leave the EU and in particular when we leave the single
:31:38. > :31:41.market, hence I did go through the lobby last night in favour of
:31:42. > :31:45.remaining in the single market. I think we will all be poorer without
:31:46. > :31:50.it. What do you think of that come him saying what he genuinely
:31:51. > :31:53.believes? It felt like a bit of a re-heating of the arguments of the
:31:54. > :31:58.referendum campaign and we need to move on. We have looked at the
:31:59. > :32:02.single market issue on the Brexit committee. From the experts we have
:32:03. > :32:07.heard from, Chatham House, others, no one thinks we can leave the EU
:32:08. > :32:13.and by the back door go back into single market realistically. I do
:32:14. > :32:18.not think it is particularly a credible option. The key thing about
:32:19. > :32:26.John Major's speech is that we weeks away from negotiations and we need
:32:27. > :32:31.unity of and spirit. Why? I am not sure how this helps. If we all want
:32:32. > :32:36.to avoid the risk, which their undoubtedly is, of no deal at the
:32:37. > :32:41.end, how did this help? I want our EU friends to realise we have moved
:32:42. > :32:49.on, the country has moved on, by four to one according to a poll, the
:32:50. > :32:52.country wants us to get on. It strengthens our chance of getting
:32:53. > :33:01.the very best deal that everyone wants to see. Do you think it was an
:33:02. > :33:05.patriotic -- unpatriotic? I am not getting into that. I do not want to
:33:06. > :33:13.attack him. I do not agree with personal attacks. I went through the
:33:14. > :33:20.referendum campaign, never speak ill of your fellow Conservative. I want
:33:21. > :33:24.the best deal. My only concern is that some of those trying to trip up
:33:25. > :33:27.Theresa May, I am not pointing fingers, they are making the
:33:28. > :33:33.prospect of getting no deal more likely. Do you agree with that? Your
:33:34. > :33:37.view last night, the way you voted in terms of wanting Britain to stay
:33:38. > :33:40.in the single market, that is precisely what Dominic Raab is
:33:41. > :33:45.talking about, undermining it and making it harder for Britain to get
:33:46. > :33:50.a deal? It is not. What was important in what John Major said is
:33:51. > :33:55.he was suggesting that home we adopt in negotiations should be a lot more
:33:56. > :34:01.friendly and subtle than so far -- the tone. Cheap rhetoric, he said,
:34:02. > :34:06.she needs to inject more charm. Quite right. Talking about a red,
:34:07. > :34:11.white and blue Brexit, it was never going to be helpful. We want to do a
:34:12. > :34:14.deal with Europe, we want them to be on our side and I think John Major
:34:15. > :34:22.was right in saying we need the right tone. She has a very positive
:34:23. > :34:29.vision for Britain and the EU, Theresa May set it out in the
:34:30. > :34:35.Lancaster House speech. You said you need the EU leaders on board and if
:34:36. > :34:39.you paint Brexit in such a way it alienates them... I do not accept
:34:40. > :34:44.the picture of what Theresa May has done, I do not think it is a fair
:34:45. > :34:49.resemblance of the text of the speech. But I do accept a wider
:34:50. > :34:55.argument, without pointing fingers, that we need to look for win- win.
:34:56. > :35:00.With the greatest of respect to John Major or Patience, I am not sure how
:35:01. > :35:05.his contribution helped. How did it help, if not just to undermine the
:35:06. > :35:10.process? That is what Tony Blair's speech was about too. They were very
:35:11. > :35:12.different. We have had a lot of respect from my opponent this
:35:13. > :35:18.morning but actually what John Major was talking about was helpful hints
:35:19. > :35:23.on how we should conduct the negotiations and I hope that the
:35:24. > :35:27.Government will be listening. My opponent in this? I thought we might
:35:28. > :35:36.be linking arms. We share similar values. I wrote widely for the
:35:37. > :35:41.Telegraph when you were at its helm. I am wary when people say with
:35:42. > :35:46.respect because it often means the opposite. Part of the concern of
:35:47. > :35:51.John Major was a concern way less regulated, lower tax economy. It
:35:52. > :35:57.would see the NHS suffer if we do not get a good deal. A lot of people
:35:58. > :36:02.will still be waiting on the ?350 million going into the NHS. What do
:36:03. > :36:07.you say to the substance of what he said? The NHS in lots of ways can be
:36:08. > :36:11.strengthened. But the truth is we have got control of our public
:36:12. > :36:15.services now, there is an impact from immigration on the NHS, some of
:36:16. > :36:18.it is positive because we have European staff, but some of the
:36:19. > :36:24.strain we debated at length in the referendum... But we need to move
:36:25. > :36:27.forward. There are risks of leaving the EU. I have written about them
:36:28. > :36:32.today. I am not going to say with the greatest of respect... With the
:36:33. > :36:38.greatest of deference. You must have said that 300 times! I would like
:36:39. > :36:44.unity of spirit. I agree the way we talk to our European partners is
:36:45. > :36:49.critically important. We are hearing positive noises that of the EU, the
:36:50. > :36:52.German Foreign Minister and finance minister, but it does not help the
:36:53. > :36:57.positive voices there if it looks like we are divided at home. They do
:36:58. > :37:03.not understand our attitude. They think we want the benefits of being
:37:04. > :37:10.in the club without paying the conscription. We need to frame this
:37:11. > :37:16.about why it is, for example, barrier free trade, in both sides'
:37:17. > :37:20.interests. In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks, we will continue
:37:21. > :37:25.to support them... Dominic Raab, if you do not keep them onside, the
:37:26. > :37:32.former Chancellor George Osborne has issued a stark warning to the
:37:33. > :37:36.British economy, if Theresa May fails to secure a trade deal, it
:37:37. > :37:40.would be the biggest act of protectionism in British history. Do
:37:41. > :37:47.you agree with him on that? No. I want to be respectful to George
:37:48. > :37:50.Osborne as well even if I get in trouble with Patience! If we go into
:37:51. > :37:54.the negotiations say we want to be a global leader... Global leader in
:37:55. > :38:00.free trade, we have these other potential free trade deals, we are
:38:01. > :38:04.saying to our EU friends, barrier free trade is in your interests and
:38:05. > :38:10.our interests, how is it us engaging in protectionism if the EU does not
:38:11. > :38:14.give us that deal? We have a strong opportunity to get a good deal for
:38:15. > :38:18.Britain and the EU. Even Sir Ivan Rogers who gave evidence to the
:38:19. > :38:22.Brexit committee said he thought the prospects of a positive deal were
:38:23. > :38:27.very strong. There is an issue around timing. Let us go in with
:38:28. > :38:31.ambition and confidence. It is not just Dominic Raab who once unity of
:38:32. > :38:36.spirit, your colleague in the House of Lords, Dominic Lawson, he
:38:37. > :38:39.criticised your stance last week on this programme. What do you say
:38:40. > :38:43.about your Tory colleague Baroness Patience Wheatcroft who has written
:38:44. > :38:48.that if he is applied the brakes to Brexit, they will be doing their
:38:49. > :38:56.job? She is silly. The people have spoken, the House of Commons has
:38:57. > :39:04.accepted this, I am -- overwhelming majority, and for one eccentric
:39:05. > :39:10.peeress to complain about it is neither here nor there. You and --
:39:11. > :39:15.you are an eccentric peeress customer I feel very strongly about
:39:16. > :39:20.this. People have spoken and indeed they have by a narrow majority. But
:39:21. > :39:25.in a general election, five years later, they can change their mind,
:39:26. > :39:30.when they know what they voted for may not have delivered what they
:39:31. > :39:35.expected. What people voted for in the referendum varied hugely. Yes,
:39:36. > :39:38.they voted to come out of the EU, but on what terms? I maintain that
:39:39. > :39:43.when we know what the terms are, we should give people the chance to
:39:44. > :39:44.speak again. Very respectfully, Dominic Raab, thank you for coming
:39:45. > :39:49.on the Daily Politics. Now, Britain's famous for its
:39:50. > :39:51.world-class academic institutions, but we've long been criticised
:39:52. > :39:53.for failing on vocational education. They were the brainchild of former
:39:54. > :39:59.Education Secretary, Lord Baker - But as Jenny Kumah explains,
:40:00. > :40:05.the project is running into trouble. The first UTCs opened in 2010 under
:40:06. > :40:07.the coalition, with cross-party They offer 14 to 19-year-olds
:40:08. > :40:15.hands-on, practical learning in specialisms like science,
:40:16. > :40:22.engineering and health care. Universities and local employers
:40:23. > :40:25.back the schools and play a key role A typical day starts at 8:30am
:40:26. > :40:34.and finishes at 5:30pm. Students have access to modern,
:40:35. > :40:35.industry-standard equipment. The idea is that they gain
:40:36. > :40:39.workplace skills, alongside a broad academic education,
:40:40. > :40:43.moving on to university or further But performance of these
:40:44. > :40:47.schools has been mixed. Five have already closed down,
:40:48. > :40:52.like this one in Burnley, Three more are due
:40:53. > :40:58.to close this August. Now, former Education
:40:59. > :41:00.Secretary Michael Gove has criticised the schools,
:41:01. > :41:02.some of which were Writing in the Times,
:41:03. > :41:28.he said that... And we're joined now
:41:29. > :41:38.by Kenneth Baker. You thought it was all rubbish, what
:41:39. > :41:43.Michael Gove has said about UTCs, but can you explain their track
:41:44. > :41:51.record in closing down a number because of low pupil numbers? Last
:41:52. > :41:57.year, we had 1300 leavers in July at 18, only five joined the ranks of
:41:58. > :42:02.the unemployed. Why have they closed down? The unemployment rate is the
:42:03. > :42:11.lowest in the country, 0.5%. The schools Michael Gove is praising had
:42:12. > :42:14.a rate of 11.5%. We are providing engineers and they would not get to
:42:15. > :42:19.university unless they were well-educated. 30% become
:42:20. > :42:23.apprentices. The national standard for apprentices is a percent. We
:42:24. > :42:26.exceed the general standard for going to university. What do you say
:42:27. > :42:31.to Michael Gove when he was looking at the number that have closed, not
:42:32. > :42:35.enough people is going to them in the first place? He never supported
:42:36. > :42:39.them. He was totally opposed to them. I had the support of George
:42:40. > :42:46.Osborne and David Cameron. They wanted them. The reason foreclosures
:42:47. > :42:53.is very difficult. Schools are hostile to us because they lose
:42:54. > :42:57.students. Justine Greening likes them and she has changed the law to
:42:58. > :43:01.allow our heads to go into local schools to explain what UTCs do
:43:02. > :43:06.which will increase recruitment dramatically. Does it raise the
:43:07. > :43:10.question that 14 is the wrong age to take children from the schools they
:43:11. > :43:15.are in into the technical colleges? I think so. It is too young to make
:43:16. > :43:20.these sorts of life determining choices. I think it is really
:43:21. > :43:25.important that up to the age of at least 16 children have a rigorous
:43:26. > :43:28.academic education because in today's society they need to be as
:43:29. > :43:34.good as they possibly can be at the basics before they decide what to
:43:35. > :43:37.specialise in. I am opposed to selection at 14. I struggle now to
:43:38. > :43:42.see how on earth are we allowed schools that start at 14 to be
:43:43. > :43:47.called university technical colleges. The University backs each
:43:48. > :43:52.one and it is backed by local employers, they control the board.
:43:53. > :43:56.All improvements in education have failed. We want to ensure it does
:43:57. > :44:00.not fail and it will not because we are doing what the economy needs.
:44:01. > :44:09.Michael Gove boys opposed them and try to stop them. What about raising
:44:10. > :44:17.the age? If the poor got GCSEs at 16 and then went to the UTC? -- if
:44:18. > :44:23.pupils got. I am sure 14 is right. In 1945, they tried to do it, they
:44:24. > :44:28.believed 13 14, that is what the private sector does, Europe is going
:44:29. > :44:33.to do this. If I was designing the national curriculum today as I did
:44:34. > :44:37.in the 1980s, I would stop it at 14, that is what Austria does and they
:44:38. > :44:40.have to lowest rate of youth unemployment in Europe. There is
:44:41. > :44:47.selection at 11 if people go for exams for private education. If
:44:48. > :44:52.there is selection at 11, why isn't 14 OK? I have come to the view
:44:53. > :44:57.selection is dangerous. I go into a lot of schools in Kent and the
:44:58. > :45:01.grammar schools are siphoning off the talent. The answer is to have
:45:02. > :45:05.the best possible comprehensive system and although the private
:45:06. > :45:17.sector does have entrance exams, actually, it -- to one takes
:45:18. > :45:25.children with a broad spectrum of academic achievements. Starting at
:45:26. > :45:28.13, 14. You think Theresa May's pushing of the grammar schools
:45:29. > :45:36.business guided? I do. Looking at the academic rigour, isn't that one
:45:37. > :45:39.of the issues that parents might think there will not be enough
:45:40. > :45:42.rigour on the academic side in the technical colleges at that age which
:45:43. > :45:48.means we will be getting a less good education? We teach GCSEs and
:45:49. > :45:54.A-levels. Only this morning I was at a seminar of UTC students, we had
:45:55. > :45:59.former alum and I working for companies and they are doing degree
:46:00. > :46:03.apprenticeships. They would never have done that if they stayed at
:46:04. > :46:07.conferences. They are going to get a degree paid for by computer
:46:08. > :46:11.companies in this instance. They will have no debt and get a degree.
:46:12. > :46:19.They could not have done that if they were... At 18, they also had a
:46:20. > :46:21.technical diploma. They had made things with their hands. It made
:46:22. > :46:31.them highly employable. Let's talk about the report. The
:46:32. > :46:35.importance of the stem subjects. If we don't improve stem subjects in
:46:36. > :46:40.our country economic combroet is going to decline. What do you say to
:46:41. > :46:43.that I concur. I think it's important that children have a
:46:44. > :46:48.rounded education. And stem is obviously part of that. Life is very
:46:49. > :46:51.technical these days and I applaud the fact that so many of the
:46:52. > :46:54.graduates from these schools are going into apprenticeships, I am a
:46:55. > :46:58.huge believer in apprenticeships. Absolutely. And far better to do an
:46:59. > :47:01.apprenticeship and get a degree than come out of a degree course with a
:47:02. > :47:07.lot of debt and probably not the best job prospects. Will you be
:47:08. > :47:12.supporting the UTCs... Visit one with me. I would love to do that.
:47:13. > :47:16.You got something out of the interview. We will have a visit.
:47:17. > :47:20.Now the House of Lords has opened its doors
:47:21. > :47:24.The first part of "Meet the Lords" aired on BBC two last night.
:47:25. > :47:28.Let's have a look at the clip of the crossbench hereditary peer,
:47:29. > :47:30.Lord Palmer, as he shows the cameras around what one of his
:47:31. > :47:38.colleagues called the best daycare centre in london.
:47:39. > :47:41.colleagues called the best daycare centre for the elderly in london.
:47:42. > :47:44.Lord Palmer is doing some lobbying of his own.
:47:45. > :47:47.This used to be our television room which had the most lovely
:47:48. > :47:50.comfortable chairs in it and to watch big sporting
:47:51. > :47:53.events like Wimbledon or Cheltenham races or whatever.
:47:54. > :47:56.And I came in here the other day and was amazed to find that it had
:47:57. > :48:00.As you know, we're very, very short of space and a lot
:48:01. > :48:04.of the new members do want a desk but I have never ever seen these
:48:05. > :48:07.desks occupied, which does seem really rather extraordinary.
:48:08. > :48:12.I actually put down a written question about this.
:48:13. > :48:15.Why has the television room closed down and will there be
:48:16. > :48:19.And I was told in no uncertain terms, no, there will not be
:48:20. > :48:25.And we're joined now by the Green peer who also appeared
:48:26. > :48:30.in last night's documentary, Jenny Jones.
:48:31. > :48:35.Can you answer Lord Palmer's question, why has the T V Room been
:48:36. > :48:40.turned into an office no one uses? I would imagine the shortage of space
:48:41. > :48:44.is the reason for that. But, do we use a T V Room? I couldn't even tell
:48:45. > :48:49.you where it is. He obviously use it is. Did you ever see it? I don't
:48:50. > :48:52.know. If I am in the Palace of Westminster I have other things to
:48:53. > :48:56.do than watch television. What struck you most about the
:48:57. > :49:00.documentary? I am afraid I haven't watched the whole thing. I suppose
:49:01. > :49:08.the suggestion that a lot of peers don't pull their weight, don't do
:49:09. > :49:14.the work and take the money, that's quite upsetting statement really
:49:15. > :49:18.because... This was from the former Speaker, do you think she was right?
:49:19. > :49:22.She obviously saw somebody leave a taxi and run in. It's one anecdote
:49:23. > :49:25.and it's hard to draw real conclusions from it. I would imagine
:49:26. > :49:30.of course there is abuse, there is abuse in every system. But my
:49:31. > :49:34.impression is people seem to work quite hard. Right. She said there
:49:35. > :49:39.was only a hard core of people who work hard to justify the daily
:49:40. > :49:43.allowance which is about ?300 a day. And that many, many peers, she said,
:49:44. > :49:49.don't do very much at all. Well, the House is too big. There are moves
:49:50. > :49:54.afoot to slim it down. The most one gets in a vote is around 550. There
:49:55. > :49:59.are more than 800 peers, so, clearly not everybody is turning up all the
:50:00. > :50:03.time. But if they're not there to vote they're not probably claiming
:50:04. > :50:09.the allowance as well, so I don't think the criticisms are entirely
:50:10. > :50:11.fair. If the Baroness did see somebody really abusing the system
:50:12. > :50:14.like that she was in a good position to do something about it. Right. You
:50:15. > :50:18.think some action should have been taken? It showed the rarified world
:50:19. > :50:24.of the House of Lords and the trappings that go with it. It also
:50:25. > :50:27.showed the workings of the place in terms of what they do as far as
:50:28. > :50:31.legislation is concerned. Do you still think the upper chamber has an
:50:32. > :50:34.important role to play in refining the laws that come from the House of
:50:35. > :50:38.Commons? I definitely do. I would say it ought to be different. I
:50:39. > :50:42.would like to see a fully elected chamber. I think that we could then
:50:43. > :50:48.reduce the number of pierce to a reasonable level. But the fact is we
:50:49. > :50:53.take a lot of what is technically called rubbish from the Commons and
:50:54. > :50:57.do turn it into better legislation. There are some brilliant minds in
:50:58. > :51:02.the House of Lords. Some people with real expertise, I don't include
:51:03. > :51:05.myself necessarily, but I think democracyising it is the way
:51:06. > :51:10.forward. Why did you take up a peerage in an unelected House if you
:51:11. > :51:12.want it to be elected? Because as a Green you take every single
:51:13. > :51:15.opportunity you can to fight the Government. I sit in the House of
:51:16. > :51:18.Lords, I argue against the Government, I vote against the
:51:19. > :51:21.Government, I speak, it's fantastic. A fantastic opportunity. Do you
:51:22. > :51:25.think some of what was shown will undermine the case for the House of
:51:26. > :51:29.Lords remaining as an unelected House? I feel some of it won't help.
:51:30. > :51:35.Nevertheless there was evidence of the work that goes on. Oona King was
:51:36. > :51:39.talking about committee work and Jenny is right there is a huge
:51:40. > :51:43.amount of legislation that arrives from the -- arrives from the Commons
:51:44. > :51:49.barely scrutinised at all and in the Lords it gets looked at. There are
:51:50. > :51:52.experts there. There are people with medical backgrounds, scientific
:51:53. > :51:57.backgrounds, a share of judges and people with legal backgrounds. They
:51:58. > :52:01.can bring their intellect to work on what really does need improvement,
:52:02. > :52:04.there is just too much legislation coming our way, I think. How
:52:05. > :52:08.sustainable do you think the House of Lords is in its current form at
:52:09. > :52:12.the moment? You proposed an elected chamber but the problem is it would
:52:13. > :52:18.then be very competitive with the House of Commons. And many people
:52:19. > :52:22.believe that should be the body that proposes and pushes laws through.
:52:23. > :52:25.There are checks and balances. You can make the terms of office
:52:26. > :52:31.shorter, for example, and make sure people don't stand again and things
:52:32. > :52:35.like that. It could be a challenge, but not an undermining of the
:52:36. > :52:43.Commons. The fact is at the moment the House of Lords is often more
:52:44. > :52:46.liberal, more generous, I would say, than the Commons and I think in
:52:47. > :52:49.general a good job is done, although a lot of changes are needed. Would
:52:50. > :52:53.you be frightened of an elected House of Lords? No, but I think it
:52:54. > :52:56.wouldn't be as effective as the House of Lords that we have at the
:52:57. > :53:01.moment. I think the Commons certainly would be frightened of it.
:53:02. > :53:06.They don't like the idea of having an elected second chamber. Then, at
:53:07. > :53:11.the moment the Lords is aware that it is the elected chamber, which
:53:12. > :53:15.actually has the final say. We have the right, indeed the duty if we
:53:16. > :53:19.think it is required to say to them, look, take another look at this,
:53:20. > :53:23.think again. In the end, we are absolutely clear that the Commons is
:53:24. > :53:26.paramount because it is a democratically elected chamber. Are
:53:27. > :53:30.you clear on that as far as Brexit is concerned? Yes. You are. Despite
:53:31. > :53:35.the fact you voted against the Government last night and voted for
:53:36. > :53:39.Britain to remain in the single market which Dominic Raab and others
:53:40. > :53:42.would say is not in the spirit of supporting Article 50, why did you
:53:43. > :53:46.vote against? To send a message to the Commons that we think and those
:53:47. > :53:49.of us who voted that way, do share the view, we think they should look
:53:50. > :53:54.again at the options for leaving. Right. Do you think the way Patience
:53:55. > :53:57.behaves on Brexit will eventually be a challenge to the House of Lords
:53:58. > :54:01.and its existence? I think everybody in the House of Lords understands
:54:02. > :54:06.they have to vote with their conscience and last night a lot of
:54:07. > :54:11.peers voted to stay in the single market. My main concern is about the
:54:12. > :54:15.environmental and social protections that I see as potentially being
:54:16. > :54:17.scrapped and we have two years to put in place all sorts of
:54:18. > :54:22.regulation, this is nothing to do with a deal with the EU, this is all
:54:23. > :54:26.about setting up procedures within the UK so that we can actually
:54:27. > :54:30.effectively police environmental issues and social issues of equality
:54:31. > :54:32.and work. Much more to watch of course on the House of Lords. You
:54:33. > :54:35.can watch it, not behind your sofa next time.
:54:36. > :54:37.Now, it's Shrove Tuesday, which can only mean one thing -
:54:38. > :54:40.Commentary on this gladitorial contest between peers,
:54:41. > :54:42.MPs and the press is from the Daily Politics'
:54:43. > :54:49.Spring has sprung and everyone is here.
:54:50. > :54:53.there is the editor of this very programme...
:54:54. > :54:58...and some MPs with varying degrees of enthusiasm for the whole
:54:59. > :55:09.Oh, God, I hadn't even thought about it.
:55:10. > :55:11.Most people just say chocolate or booze.
:55:12. > :55:24.Very good skills from Catherine McKinnell.
:55:25. > :55:28.There is nimble Nigel Nelson, political editor
:55:29. > :55:32.David Burrowes is slipping all over the place.
:55:33. > :55:43.He's sound as a pound, as Stephen Pound, that is.
:55:44. > :55:46.And it was the MPs who surged to victory.
:55:47. > :55:49.All of this is for the charity Rehab which helps people
:55:50. > :55:51.with disabilities, but politics is never far away.
:55:52. > :55:53.Clive, are there any other contests you're thinking of entering?
:55:54. > :56:12.Too much fun. At least it was in the sunshine. We are joined now by David
:56:13. > :56:18.Burrowes and the Conservative peer Ros Altman. I don't see flour or
:56:19. > :56:23.pancakes over you! You weren't out of breath at all. Did you win? We
:56:24. > :56:30.did. We always win. You do, I think. We didn't win. I sort of worked that
:56:31. > :56:35.out. Why not? Well, first of all, there were only five of us. We each
:56:36. > :56:42.had to go twice. It was a slight disadvantage. Usually you have too
:56:43. > :56:46.many Lords, now too few. We did try and toss the pancakes, we were good
:56:47. > :56:49.tossers but not good winners. Did you cheat, did you run around
:56:50. > :56:53.without flipping the pancake? Well, the spirit of the competition, we
:56:54. > :56:56.always complain about when we have the defence of sticking to the
:56:57. > :57:01.rules, but there was a broad interpretation of the rules. We are
:57:02. > :57:04.the law-makers and we are entitled perhaps to... It was not about
:57:05. > :57:10.winning, but also about supporting the charity. We need to scrutinise
:57:11. > :57:14.this. Tell us about the charity. It's Rehab, it's all about
:57:15. > :57:18.supporting independence for disabled people of all backgrounds trying to
:57:19. > :57:23.ensure they get into work. 20,000 childrenen and adult people, they do
:57:24. > :57:27.great work up and down the country. We are having fun. Great to flip
:57:28. > :57:35.pancakes and support a charity. Is this the first time you have done it
:57:36. > :57:39.It is. There were - it was fun and there were members of the public.
:57:40. > :57:43.You raised a crowd. I always try and support charity. I have done it, I
:57:44. > :57:47.have done it myself. I wasn't very good. I was very slow. I was trying
:57:48. > :57:51.to flip the pancakes too often as everybody else ran past me. Yeah,
:57:52. > :57:55.what were the press like this year? The press lost. They're very
:57:56. > :57:59.competitive. They struggled with a bit of the balance issue sometimes.
:58:00. > :58:03.You thought about this script haven't you! Have you not taken
:58:04. > :58:09.part, your excuse today was that you are on the show. Exactly. But I am
:58:10. > :58:13.good with pancakes. I must have a good next year. How did they choose
:58:14. > :58:18.who does it? They didn't actually choose. They sent e-mails out to
:58:19. > :58:21.everybody. I think the mugs that replied, the people that replied...
:58:22. > :58:25.I am happy to volunteer for something like this. It's really
:58:26. > :58:29.good. Maybe something about Brexit at the moment, 11 of us doing
:58:30. > :58:32.pancakes. That's your last money. Thank you very much.
:58:33. > :58:35.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:36. > :58:37.The question was who has been spying on the BBC?
:58:38. > :58:41.(C) The German intelligence agency the BND?
:58:42. > :58:45.It was the German intelligence agency. Don't you bank on it. All of
:58:46. > :58:45.them! The one o'clock news is starting
:58:46. > :58:50.over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow
:58:51. > :58:52.with Andrew for live coverage Good morning, this is BBC Breakfast.
:58:53. > :59:06.Morning, Dan. In the sports news, we have
:59:07. > :59:10.the latest on the Welsh rugby team, Poppy's sports day,
:59:11. > :59:13.and news on Andy Murray. The headlines coming up, but our
:59:14. > :59:16.next guest is really quite special. Jack, the toast's burning.
:59:17. > :59:20.Welcome, Daniel Radcliffe. We've been hearing how
:59:21. > :59:24.changes to petrol prices