:00:38. > :00:45.Theresa May tells Nicola Sturgeon, stop obsessing with independence
:00:46. > :00:49.and focus on improving health and education in Scotland.
:00:50. > :00:55.We'll hear from the Secretary of State for Scotland
:00:56. > :00:57.and the SNP on the tussle over a second independence referendum.
:00:58. > :01:00.Vote counting is underway in Northern Ireland in the snap
:01:01. > :01:05.election called after the collapse of the power-sharing administration.
:01:06. > :01:13.Plaid Cymru hold their spring conference in Newport,
:01:14. > :01:16.with a call to "rebalance Wales" as we head for Brexit.
:01:17. > :01:20.The party's leader, Leanne Wood, joins us live.
:01:21. > :01:22.There are over a hundred of them in the UK government,
:01:23. > :01:34.We've got the lowdown on what makes an effective government minister.
:01:35. > :01:37.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:38. > :01:39.of the programme today, the Political Editor
:01:40. > :01:41.of the Financial Times, George Parker, and Claire Fox
:01:42. > :01:47.Let's kick off with the latest twist in the story of
:01:48. > :01:49.Donald Trump's Attorney General, and conversations he had
:01:50. > :01:52.with the Russian ambassador to Washington last year.
:01:53. > :01:57.Yesterday Jeff Sessions announced he would excuse himself from an FBI
:01:58. > :02:04.probe into alleged Russian meddling in the US election after mounting
:02:05. > :02:06.pressure from all sides over allegations he'd lied on oath
:02:07. > :02:07.about his contacts with Russian officials.
:02:08. > :02:23.I have now decided to recuse myself from any existing or future
:02:24. > :02:26.investigations of any matter relating in any way to the campaigns
:02:27. > :02:34.Mr Sessions went on to describe the nature of his meeting
:02:35. > :02:40.We talked a little bit about terrorism, as I recall.
:02:41. > :02:44.And somehow the subject of the Ukraine came up.
:02:45. > :02:50.I had had the Ukrainian ambassador in my office the day before
:02:51. > :02:55.and to listen to him, Russia had done nothing
:02:56. > :02:58.that was wrong in any area and everybody else was wrong
:02:59. > :03:08.It got to be a little bit of a testy conversation at that point.
:03:09. > :03:15.That is the US Attorney General under some pressure at the moment.
:03:16. > :03:18.What exactly is wrong with him having met the Russian ambassador?
:03:19. > :03:24.The context is everything, which is that it seems extraordinary that is
:03:25. > :03:28.so much hysteria about the fact that somebody has met the Russian
:03:29. > :03:33.ambassador and it would seem to be, that seems to be what diplomacy is
:03:34. > :03:40.about but the context is a toxic, nasty, vicious atmosphere of almost
:03:41. > :03:45.McCarthy read under the bed and the Russian sentiment. This time being
:03:46. > :03:49.led by the left whereas McCarthy was on the right. And also it is not the
:03:50. > :03:55.soviet Union, it is a different regime. But if you ever say you have
:03:56. > :03:58.talked to anyone from Russia now in America, presumably you are a bad
:03:59. > :04:03.guy will stop and it is not just that, the fact of the meeting but
:04:04. > :04:06.the cover-up. It is always the cover-up that get you in American
:04:07. > :04:10.politics and the fact that he appeared before Congress and said he
:04:11. > :04:14.did not have them. He was asked a convoluted question, not a clear
:04:15. > :04:19.question, in the cause of the campaign did you meet the Russian
:04:20. > :04:24.ambassador? It was a more complicated... His answer was still
:04:25. > :04:28.not convincing but it is open to nuance. He would have expected
:04:29. > :04:30.questioned about his contact with the Russians and it would have
:04:31. > :04:34.helped if he was frank and upfront about it but the question of perjury
:04:35. > :04:40.which has a vision is a hard charge to make stick in America. -- which
:04:41. > :04:46.has arisen. The cover-up is one thing but because the atmosphere is
:04:47. > :04:53.so the pro in relation to this issue, the indication is that Putin
:04:54. > :04:58.is pulling the strings of American politics which I think is the thing
:04:59. > :05:01.which is dangerously conspiratorial and a very defensive way of trying
:05:02. > :05:05.to explain why Tom got elected rather than the fact that he did
:05:06. > :05:10.because he won the election -- white Trump got elected. Do you think it
:05:11. > :05:16.is conspiratorial, you think the Russians were not hacking? I am sure
:05:17. > :05:21.the Russians wanted to interfere in the political process but I think
:05:22. > :05:25.that the reason why Donald Trump won is because, for example, Hillary
:05:26. > :05:36.Clinton led the most uninspiring campaign. The issue is not if the
:05:37. > :05:39.Russians were trying to interfere in the campaign, the intelligence
:05:40. > :05:43.agencies are sure that they were, the toxic issue is if the
:05:44. > :05:52.Republicans were complicit in this attempt to interfere. That is why
:05:53. > :05:56.the Attorney General's, to put it lightly, nuanced answer to Alf
:05:57. > :06:00.Rankin's question is now such a big issue. That is the trouble, he has
:06:01. > :06:09.already lost his national security adviser. And Toulouse two... And
:06:10. > :06:13.this is the tip of the iceberg because reducing himself might draw
:06:14. > :06:20.a line under this for now but Congress had got their teeth into it
:06:21. > :06:25.-- and to lose two. He has rightly said and others have said, he was on
:06:26. > :06:32.the armed services committee and members that meet ambassadors, that
:06:33. > :06:36.is what they do. We have a former Republican congressman saying that,
:06:37. > :06:42.Senator Claire McCaskill has tweeted as well and she said that she hadn't
:06:43. > :06:45.and then it turned out she had met several times with Russian
:06:46. > :06:49.ambassadors. If you watched the performance of the Attorney General,
:06:50. > :06:53.all of it, I would suggest it does not engender confidence. If doesn't
:06:54. > :06:58.but not because of the relationship with the Russians. But you wonder
:06:59. > :07:05.why he is Attorney General. That is a different point. There might be
:07:06. > :07:07.queries about the statesman-like, judicious choices of the Trump
:07:08. > :07:11.administration and if you want to talk about that, it's fine but doing
:07:12. > :07:15.it all through the prism of this Russian question... The only reason
:07:16. > :07:19.I refer to that, there is this idea that is being put about that the
:07:20. > :07:26.Russians have also altered the result of the Brexit vote and we are
:07:27. > :07:29.all being brainwashed. That is a bit of a stretch. I'm concerned there is
:07:30. > :07:33.a broader thing which would mean that if anybody said to you in a
:07:34. > :07:36.position of authority in America, have you ever met a Russian
:07:37. > :07:41.ambassador, that you go, no, possibly... That is not healthy. The
:07:42. > :07:47.French political elite is in no doubt they are trying to implement
:07:48. > :07:53.the French presidential election. There are stories on the website of
:07:54. > :07:56.Mr Macron that it has been hacked 4000 times. What would you expect
:07:57. > :08:03.the Russian intelligence services to be doing? If there is an American
:08:04. > :08:06.election where one of the candidates is pro-Russian in the case of Trump,
:08:07. > :08:17.of course you try to include it and the same with the French elections,
:08:18. > :08:22.Fillon is pro Russian. It is not just a straightforward, we like the
:08:23. > :08:27.Russians, it doesn't even have depth in relation to Trump's relationship
:08:28. > :08:31.with it, there is a big admiration, critical of Nato. We have to move
:08:32. > :08:38.on, Mr Trump has treated in favour of it as general, probably in favour
:08:39. > :08:39.of the reasons you give. We will see if it helps.
:08:40. > :08:46.announced plans to recruit new staff with a tap on the shoulder
:08:47. > :08:49.to try to help them avoid a workforce dominated by white,
:08:50. > :09:07.or d) The Department for Exiting the European Union?
:09:08. > :09:11.Or the BBC?! I just add about myself!
:09:12. > :09:14.At the end of the show Claire and George will about
:09:15. > :09:19.So, the Prime Minister, Theresa May, was in Glasgow this morning,
:09:20. > :09:21.telling the Scottish Conservatives' spring conference that the SNP
:09:22. > :09:22.should stop obsessing with independence and concentrate
:09:23. > :09:24.on improving Scotland's public services.
:09:25. > :09:27.The PM's speech comes as the First Minister of Scotland,
:09:28. > :09:31.Nicola Sturgeon, continues to suggest she will demand a second
:09:32. > :09:38.Earlier this week, Nicola Sturgeon said a second referendum would be
:09:39. > :09:41.a "legitimate" and "almost necessary" step, unless Scotland
:09:42. > :09:46.is able to secure its own special relationship with the EU.
:09:47. > :09:49.She added that it would be a "gross betrayal" if Theresa May does not
:09:50. > :09:52.devolve powers over fishing and farming that will be
:09:53. > :09:58.repatriated to the UK as part of the Brexit process.
:09:59. > :10:01.And in a newspaper article, she said that if there is a second
:10:02. > :10:03.independence referendum, it will be the result of "sheer
:10:04. > :10:05.intransigence" on behalf of the Conservative government.
:10:06. > :10:10.And it's not just pro-independence politicians.
:10:11. > :10:13.Tony Blair said in a speech last month that the case for Scottish
:10:14. > :10:18.independence is now "much more credible" after the Brexit vote.
:10:19. > :10:21.But the Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson,
:10:22. > :10:23.accused the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon of manufacturing a "synthetic
:10:24. > :10:30.And in her speech this morning, Theresa May has hit out at the SNP
:10:31. > :10:36.She also said that public services in Scotland are being "neglected"
:10:37. > :10:38.by the SNP government, because of their "obsession with
:10:39. > :10:49.Here's some of what the Prime Minister had to say.
:10:50. > :10:52.As Britain leaves the European Union and we forge a new role
:10:53. > :10:54.for ourselves in the world, the strength and stability
:10:55. > :10:56.of our union will become ever more important.
:10:57. > :10:59.We must take this opportunity to bring our United Kingdom
:11:00. > :11:05.Because the union which we all care about is not simply
:11:06. > :11:16.It is a union of people, affections and loyalties.
:11:17. > :11:19.It is characterised by sharing together as a country
:11:20. > :11:22.the challenges which we all face, and freely pooling the resources
:11:23. > :11:29.The existence of the union rests on some simple
:11:30. > :11:40.but powerful principles - solidarity, unity, family.
:11:41. > :11:42.The Secretary of State for Scotland, David Mundell, joins
:11:43. > :11:57.Nicola Sturgeon says that you are showing intransigence in the UK
:11:58. > :12:01.Government's attitude towards Scotland's relationship with Europe.
:12:02. > :12:06.I know you have talked a lot but what policy concessions made to the
:12:07. > :12:11.Scottish Government? We have been very clear with the Scottish
:12:12. > :12:14.Government that we take the document they produced seriously and that is
:12:15. > :12:19.why we are engaged in such detailed discussions with them all stop but
:12:20. > :12:22.the Prime Minister, for example, when she made her Lancaster House
:12:23. > :12:27.speech, highlighted the fact that education and research was one of
:12:28. > :12:30.the issues that became a priority in her speech because of
:12:31. > :12:35.representations that had been made from Scotland. As you know, that is
:12:36. > :12:39.a really important area here in Scotland. So we are listening, we
:12:40. > :12:43.want to engage with the Scottish Government, we want them to work
:12:44. > :12:47.with us so that we can get the best possible deal for Scotland and the
:12:48. > :12:51.whole of the UK as we leave the EU. You say you are listening, that you
:12:52. > :12:55.are engaged with the Scottish Government so that we ask again, in
:12:56. > :13:03.this process, what concessions have you made to the Scottish Government
:13:04. > :13:06.in policy terms? It is not a case of making concessions, it is a case of
:13:07. > :13:13.understanding the very large areas of common ground we already have in
:13:14. > :13:20.terms of workers' rights, in terms of security and criminal justice
:13:21. > :13:24.issues, and looking at what the end point that both sides want rather
:13:25. > :13:27.than focusing on the means. The Scottish Government wants to the
:13:28. > :13:33.access to the European single market, we want easy access... They
:13:34. > :13:39.want to remain members... Let me just ask again... You are dancing
:13:40. > :13:44.around this, you have listened and listened but you can't give me one
:13:45. > :13:49.example in which you have acted, one example which you have met a policy
:13:50. > :13:54.position of the Scottish Government. I think I said in my opening
:13:55. > :13:59.remarks, Andrew, that education and research and the importance to be
:14:00. > :14:02.placed on that in the European negotiations with a direct result of
:14:03. > :14:07.representations made from Scotland. I have also set out areas like
:14:08. > :14:10.workers' rights and criminal Justice and security where we are in
:14:11. > :14:15.absolute agreement with the position that the Scottish Government has. We
:14:16. > :14:18.are also clear that we both want to see businesses from Scotland trading
:14:19. > :14:27.in the European single market, we both want to see people still being
:14:28. > :14:30.able to come to Scotland to take up job opportunities here. It is just
:14:31. > :14:32.how you go about doing that that is the important thing. So you would
:14:33. > :14:35.not have made education and research a major priority in the negotiations
:14:36. > :14:41.it had not been the Scottish Government? What we have recognised
:14:42. > :14:48.is that it's a priority and vital area here in Scotland. One of the
:14:49. > :14:52.areas where representation, of course we didn't need the Scottish
:14:53. > :14:57.Government... So it's not a concession... What we wanted to do
:14:58. > :15:00.was to work with them to take on broad issues and concerned that they
:15:01. > :15:04.have raised and that is what officials are in a very detailed
:15:05. > :15:09.dialogue. But do we believe that Scotland should have a separate and
:15:10. > :15:13.different arrangement? No, we have not been convinced of that. We are
:15:14. > :15:19.still open to that argument but we don't see the issues around access
:15:20. > :15:21.to the market or migration as being a particularly Scottish issues,
:15:22. > :15:26.these are issues that affect the whole of the UK and we believe that
:15:27. > :15:33.still working on a United Kingdom -based is it the best way forward.
:15:34. > :15:39.So let me get this clear, as things stand at the moment, you are not
:15:40. > :15:44.minded to look at the possibility of Scotland remaining a member of the
:15:45. > :15:50.single market as the rest of the UK leaves? Is that correct?
:15:51. > :15:58.I don't see a basis in which Scotland can remain a member but I
:15:59. > :16:00.see a basis in which Scotland can achieve the sort of access
:16:01. > :16:05.businesses in Scotland want to that single market. That is what I think
:16:06. > :16:11.ourselves and the Scottish Government should focus on. The S NP
:16:12. > :16:17.manifesto, which won them the Scottish Parliamentary elections,
:16:18. > :16:22.says, should there be significant and material change in
:16:23. > :16:27.circumstances, which of course, the EU referendum was, we have the right
:16:28. > :16:34.to hold another referendum. She says it's a cast iron man date. Why is
:16:35. > :16:37.she wrong? I have always said there could be another independence
:16:38. > :16:42.referendum. The debate and the argument is, should there be another
:16:43. > :16:46.independence referendum? The people of Scotland are quite clear at this
:16:47. > :16:52.time they do not want another divisive referendum. We had one less
:16:53. > :16:56.than three years ago. It had a decisive outcome. What we need to do
:16:57. > :17:00.is seek independence taken off the table at this time as we go forward
:17:01. > :17:04.in the Brexit negotiations and ensure we work together to get the
:17:05. > :17:10.best possible deal for Scotland and the whole of the UK. If the Scottish
:17:11. > :17:15.Government does call for another referendum, what will the
:17:16. > :17:18.Westminster government say? We know what the process is for a
:17:19. > :17:24.referendum. There would have to be the equivalent of the previous
:17:25. > :17:30.Edinburgh Agreement. That is not on the table. What proposition is not
:17:31. > :17:35.on the table? Another referendum. The proposition for a request for
:17:36. > :17:42.another referendum. It could be by the end of this month. Nicola
:17:43. > :17:48.Sturgeon says it is very likely, very, very likely. What if that
:17:49. > :17:53.happens? She has not made a formal approach to the UK Government. If
:17:54. > :17:56.she does, what with the attitude of the British Gutmann B? Our attitude
:17:57. > :18:02.is very clear. We do not think there should be another referendum. --
:18:03. > :18:06.government be. You would say to the Scottish Government, it could not
:18:07. > :18:11.have a second referendum? That is not what I said. You are perfectly
:18:12. > :18:15.aware of that. As I said in my earlier remarks, that could be
:18:16. > :18:19.another referendum between do not believe there should be. We will
:18:20. > :18:24.continue to make the case there should not be won and Nicola
:18:25. > :18:32.Sturgeon should not bring forward a case for another referendum. Things
:18:33. > :18:37.may be moving on on this. We will find out from Nicola Sturgeon later
:18:38. > :18:44.this month. What I want to ask you is this... If Nicola Sturgeon says
:18:45. > :18:48.we will have a second referendum, would the Westminster government be
:18:49. > :18:57.prepared to allow that to happen before the Brexit negotiations have
:18:58. > :19:01.concluded? We are going to continue focusing our argument in line with
:19:02. > :19:06.what the people of Scotland want. That is the independence issue is
:19:07. > :19:12.taken off the table and we are not subjected to a request for another
:19:13. > :19:16.independence referendum. That is an interesting answer but it does not
:19:17. > :19:22.relate to the question I asked. Let me try once again. With the
:19:23. > :19:25.Westminster government contemplated Green to a second referendum before
:19:26. > :19:29.the Brexit negotiations are concluded or would you tell the
:19:30. > :19:36.Scottish Government they could not have one macro until Brexit was
:19:37. > :19:40.concluded? We're in a position where there was a process for requesting
:19:41. > :19:44.another independence referendum. That would be a matter for the
:19:45. > :19:48.Scottish Government to determine whether they make that request. We
:19:49. > :19:52.will continue as the Prime Minister has today to focus our efforts on
:19:53. > :19:57.making the case there should not be such a request and there should not
:19:58. > :20:01.be a second independence referendum. The people in Scotland are quite
:20:02. > :20:07.clear, they do not want another referendum. Thank you very much for
:20:08. > :20:12.joining us live from Glasgow. Let's get some reaction now from Angus
:20:13. > :20:18.Robertson. I do not think he could hear the interview but let me go
:20:19. > :20:24.straight into this. If the Scottish Government, the British government,
:20:25. > :20:30.sorry, as was indicated, does not think that Scotland can remain a
:20:31. > :20:33.member of the single market in the Brexit negotiations, does that
:20:34. > :20:39.trigger a second referendum in your mind? Thank you very much for having
:20:40. > :20:43.me on the programme. My reaction to the Prime Minister's beach is one of
:20:44. > :20:48.disappointment. We are running at the time to get an agreement between
:20:49. > :20:54.the gods -- Scottish Gutmann and the British government before Article 50
:20:55. > :20:57.is triggered. Scotland voted to remain in the European Union and
:20:58. > :21:03.they are well aware we have a government in Scotland elected with
:21:04. > :21:08.more votes than the Labour Party. What is the answer? We have limited
:21:09. > :21:13.time. You're asking me to get ahead of the triggering of Article 50. Be
:21:14. > :21:16.in no doubt. If the UK Government does not negotiate with the UK
:21:17. > :21:20.Government to try to protect the interests of Scotland and Europe,
:21:21. > :21:24.the Scottish Government will have to look very seriously at using its
:21:25. > :21:28.cast mandate it got in the Parliamentary elections to hold a
:21:29. > :21:36.referendum to protect our place in Europe? The major issue is the
:21:37. > :21:40.Scottish Government's request, demand, policy, that even if the
:21:41. > :21:46.United Kingdom leads the single market, Scotland should remain a
:21:47. > :21:49.member of the single market. All the mood music, you're based in
:21:50. > :21:56.Westminster for a big chunk of the week, is the British government will
:21:57. > :22:01.not agree to that. It is a key SNP demand. If they do not, does that
:22:02. > :22:06.trigger a second referendum? You have been reporting on the Prime
:22:07. > :22:10.Minister's beach was she was talking about how important the union was.
:22:11. > :22:16.How important it is we respect different nations the UK. If she
:22:17. > :22:22.does not give you the single market, will there be a second referendum?
:22:23. > :22:27.If the Prime Minister is to be taken at her word, as a Democrat, surely
:22:28. > :22:31.she will recognise that she has a problem given that Scotland has
:22:32. > :22:36.voted to remain in European Union. We will respect the fact the rest of
:22:37. > :22:41.the UK voted to leave. The Scottish Government has put forward a
:22:42. > :22:44.compromise paper and the UK Government has come back with
:22:45. > :22:56.absolutely nothing to deal with the challenge of how to protect
:22:57. > :22:58.Scotland's plays in the single market. If there is no compromise,
:22:59. > :23:01.will you call a second referendum? If the UK Gutmann cannot reach an
:23:02. > :23:07.agreement to protect Scotland's interests, there will be another
:23:08. > :23:11.referendum. The UK Government want Scotland to remain a member of the
:23:12. > :23:18.single market, even if the United Kingdom is leaving the European
:23:19. > :23:23.Union. What major EU figure agrees with your position? This is an issue
:23:24. > :23:27.that needs to be negotiated between the member states. That would need
:23:28. > :23:31.to be the UK Government and other partners we have not heard a single
:23:32. > :23:39.member state of the European Union saying this is not possible. They
:23:40. > :23:44.have not said it is impossible for Scotland. The Secretary of State
:23:45. > :23:50.said if the UK leaves the single market, the whole UK will leave the
:23:51. > :23:56.single market. There is only one negotiator. If the UK negotiates on
:23:57. > :24:02.behalf of Scotland in Europe it is an outcome that can be pursued if
:24:03. > :24:06.the UK leaves Scotland, that is true. You were saying leaves the
:24:07. > :24:10.single market for the back is why we are trying to persuade the UK
:24:11. > :24:15.Government to argue Scotland's case to protect interests in Europe. If
:24:16. > :24:18.the UK Government says that Scotland is a partnership of equals who
:24:19. > :24:23.respect one another, that is great. Do it. The people who are being
:24:24. > :24:35.intransigent on this question are the UK Government. They have not
:24:36. > :24:37.agreed to a single thing in the negotiations. I'm moving on now to
:24:38. > :24:39.find out who supports the Scottish position within the EU. Has anybody
:24:40. > :24:44.in the commission supported your position? Has anybody in the council
:24:45. > :24:49.of ministers supported you? Nobody has said it is possible for Scotland
:24:50. > :24:54.to remain within the single market. The head of the Spanish delegation
:24:55. > :25:00.of MEPs in the majority EEP party has said it is not possible. He has
:25:01. > :25:05.said it is not possible. Scotland, while part of the United Kingdom, is
:25:06. > :25:08.to be the same as the UK. We are not going to accept Scotland in the
:25:09. > :25:20.single market without the rest of the UK.
:25:21. > :25:23.It is clear. Which head of state or government has said that? Not an
:25:24. > :25:26.MEP. The Spanish Prime Minister has also made it clear he does not think
:25:27. > :25:29.you should have a special single market status. Which government has
:25:30. > :25:35.ruled out a possible at is gotten remaining in the single market? I
:25:36. > :25:40.ask the questions. You said an MEP has said. The head of a Spanish
:25:41. > :25:44.delegation of MEPs, the Spanish Secretary of State for the European
:25:45. > :25:47.Union has said so, the Spanish Prime Minister has said if the United
:25:48. > :25:52.Kingdom leads, Scotland leaves Square he has said that in the
:25:53. > :26:01.context... Any number of quotes from the previous European president has
:26:02. > :26:05.said... He is not that any more. You cannot name a single head of
:26:06. > :26:10.government. You are the one with the policy. Tell me a single ally you
:26:11. > :26:14.have in trying to get Scotland to remain a member of the single
:26:15. > :26:18.market. Not a single government has said this is not possible to do.
:26:19. > :26:21.That is why it is imperative on the UK Government to work with the
:26:22. > :26:25.Scottish Gutmann to make our case in Europe. If they are not prepared to
:26:26. > :26:31.do it, we will have to get on with it ourselves. What would you do, Mr
:26:32. > :26:36.Robertson, if a referendum is called. All right, you can have the
:26:37. > :26:41.second referendum but you cannot have it until the Brexit initiations
:26:42. > :26:45.are concluded. I do not think that would be fair, would it question if
:26:46. > :26:50.the intention is to try to find a way for Scotland to remain in the
:26:51. > :26:54.single market before the UK finalises and leaves the EU, that
:26:55. > :26:57.would obviously will allow Scotland's position of having
:26:58. > :27:02.continuity in a European context. That would not be fair with what the
:27:03. > :27:10.majority of people of Scotland have voted for. If it believes the UK is
:27:11. > :27:13.a partnership of equals and we respect them, if that is true, the
:27:14. > :27:19.UK Government will respect the cast-iron mandate the Scottish
:27:20. > :27:23.Government has and respect the 62% vote in Scotland of remaining in a
:27:24. > :27:28.European context, and will, as Democrats agree, as they did in the
:27:29. > :27:32.run-up to the 2014 referendum, that it should take place on the mandate
:27:33. > :27:38.that was approved by the Scottish parliament. Still a lot to go on
:27:39. > :27:42.this story. Thank you for having me on. What do you make of all of this?
:27:43. > :27:50.You can tell the British government does not want to have this
:27:51. > :27:58.referendum and I'm not sure the -- the SNP are all that sure. Activists
:27:59. > :28:01.want a referendum. They have cause for a second referendum and that is
:28:02. > :28:05.Brexit. The circumstances for winning a referendum could become a
:28:06. > :28:10.lot harder. When out of the European Union, Scotland may be forced to
:28:11. > :28:17.adopt the euro. There could be an external border. They may have to
:28:18. > :28:21.say at some stage they would accept the euro. Sweden still has not got
:28:22. > :28:28.the euro and so on. There is a problem here for both the British
:28:29. > :28:32.government, which does not want a second referendum, and the Scottish
:28:33. > :28:39.Nationalists, who do. If the British government says, no... It will not
:28:40. > :28:42.say you cannot have one but the Scottish people need to know what
:28:43. > :28:46.Brexit looks like before they can make a choice of staying in the UK
:28:47. > :28:53.or trying to get back into the EU. The danger is that Nicola Sturgeon
:28:54. > :28:57.would then have a referendum in which it would take Scotland out of
:28:58. > :29:03.the UK but could not guarantee it would go back into the EU. I thought
:29:04. > :29:08.the argument, oh, no, that wouldn't be fair, we must have it before we
:29:09. > :29:11.know the Brexit vote. What we would be discussing in the referendum
:29:12. > :29:18.period would be the single market. This is hardly Braveheart. Suddenly
:29:19. > :29:21.the whole issue around Scottish independence has become quite narrow
:29:22. > :29:25.and technical and about the market in that way. I do not think that was
:29:26. > :29:30.a very inspiring answer on his part stop Scotland want to go it alone,
:29:31. > :29:37.which I completely disagree with. It is galling to keep hearing this
:29:38. > :29:41.Scotland voted to remain. There is something disingenuous about that.
:29:42. > :29:47.The UK had a referendum. On the figures, it is still less
:29:48. > :29:52.numerically. It did vote differently. It voted differently in
:29:53. > :29:53.the sense it was a different place but it is not a constitutional
:29:54. > :29:59.mandate. We will move onto the SNP conference
:30:00. > :30:04.on what the minister will say. The Scottish Conservatives aren't
:30:05. > :30:07.the only party to be holding In Wales, Plaid Cymru members
:30:08. > :30:10.are gathering in Newport to hear their leader's keynote
:30:11. > :30:19.speech this afternoon. Like the Scottish Nationalists, you
:30:20. > :30:27.also want Wales to remain in the single market as a member, not just
:30:28. > :30:33.access. It looks like that ship has left the harbour and you will not
:30:34. > :30:38.get that. You may be right, but that doesn't stop us advocating the best
:30:39. > :30:43.interest of Wales and it is in our best interests, we firmly believe,
:30:44. > :30:50.and the Welsh government agrees with us, for our relationship with the
:30:51. > :30:53.single market to continue. There are 200,000 plus jobs reliant on our
:30:54. > :30:58.relationship with the single market and that is why we are saying very
:30:59. > :31:03.strongly that we should remain a member. And countries like Norway
:31:04. > :31:09.are outside the EU and in the single market so it doesn't mean that we
:31:10. > :31:14.cannot see through Brexit, but it is the way in which we see through it
:31:15. > :31:18.and I am certainly determined to try to put the case for Wales as
:31:19. > :31:24.strongly as I possibly can. I understand, but isn't your position
:31:25. > :31:26.weaker than the Scottish Nationalists' because, unlike
:31:27. > :31:34.Scotland, Wales did vote to leave the EU? You are right. It is more
:31:35. > :31:40.difficult for us in Wales because of that but there are reasons for
:31:41. > :31:43.people voting to leave the EU. I have been knocking on doors ahead of
:31:44. > :31:49.the local elections where we expect to make some gains in May but people
:31:50. > :31:51.on the doorsteps are talking about their concerns and they feel left
:31:52. > :32:01.behind under the Labour government here. We have an imbalanced country,
:32:02. > :32:07.and an equal country, where the capital, Cardiff, is over congested
:32:08. > :32:09.in the city centre, and we want to see investment and prosperity
:32:10. > :32:12.throughout the country and I don't think that is too much to ask. Let
:32:13. > :32:17.them onto some of the issues you have been raising in the local
:32:18. > :32:23.elections coming up in early May in Wales. You have talked about
:32:24. > :32:27.rebalancing Wales, which would seem to mean moving to economic activity
:32:28. > :32:33.and jobs away from Cardiff so how is that going down in Cardiff? Cardiff
:32:34. > :32:38.is very important to us, of course, it is the capital city and we want
:32:39. > :32:43.to see it thrive. But we want to see other parts of Wales thrive as well.
:32:44. > :32:47.We have in the pipeline big Cardiff City deal which is excellent
:32:48. > :32:54.investment for Cardiff and the surrounding areas. What would you
:32:55. > :32:58.like to move away? We want to see the work start the furthest point
:32:59. > :33:02.away from the city centre and work back in so that those places that
:33:03. > :33:06.have been left behind for such a long time now feel some benefit from
:33:07. > :33:14.the investment coming to Cardiff. One of your assembly colleagues said
:33:15. > :33:17.it was shameful that was government based on new tax office near
:33:18. > :33:23.Cardiff. Is that your attitude as well? The new Welsh revenue
:33:24. > :33:31.authority will be based ten miles north of Cardiff and for that
:33:32. > :33:34.community it is very good and other communities have lost out of course
:33:35. > :33:38.but when I asked the First Minister about the availability of local
:33:39. > :33:44.labour to fill those posts, he told me that we don't have the skills in
:33:45. > :33:49.Wales to fill them from Wales and we will be looking to recruit expertise
:33:50. > :33:52.from London. From the First Minister who is responsible for skills, I
:33:53. > :33:58.think that sells a lot about their ambition for Wales, don't you? I
:33:59. > :34:04.don't know, we're only talking about 40 jobs is hardly an existential
:34:05. > :34:09.crisis. At the moment. It is 40 jobs at the moment but we are expecting
:34:10. > :34:16.that to expand with time and of course, 40 jobs in a town like
:34:17. > :34:20.Porthmadog or another rural town would have a much bigger impact than
:34:21. > :34:22.a town close to Cardiff but the point is that jobs are coming from
:34:23. > :34:30.London anyway and that is the problem. We will see. The
:34:31. > :34:34.rebalancing, that would suggest you take something from one area and
:34:35. > :34:40.give it to an area that doesn't have as much. I would say again, what do
:34:41. > :34:48.you want to take from Cardiff to put elsewhere? I'm not about splitting
:34:49. > :34:51.up and dividing communities and having different areas fighting
:34:52. > :34:57.amongst each other for different developments. But in the future, in
:34:58. > :35:02.future capital investment, when you have 21% of the population in the
:35:03. > :35:07.north of Wales for example, the only see 17% of the capital investment
:35:08. > :35:11.and that is what has got to change. You are pretty much in local
:35:12. > :35:14.elections a distant second to Labour in terms of the number of
:35:15. > :35:18.councillors you have, you don't have an overall control of a single
:35:19. > :35:26.council in Wales. After these elections, will you? We are
:35:27. > :35:29.currently leading four local authorities in Wales and we are
:35:30. > :35:33.looking to increase the number of councillors after that election. It
:35:34. > :35:37.is very difficult to say at this point because we don't know who else
:35:38. > :35:41.will be elected and in all likelihood we will have to work with
:35:42. > :35:45.others to take control of councils. But there are opportunities for us
:35:46. > :35:48.in many places in these local elections and I'm looking forward to
:35:49. > :35:51.maximising those opportunities. We will see how you do. Thank you for
:35:52. > :35:52.joining us. Counting is under way
:35:53. > :35:54.in Northern Ireland's assembly election
:35:55. > :35:56.which was called after the power-sharing administration
:35:57. > :35:58.fell apart following It's the second time voters
:35:59. > :36:05.in Northern Ireland have gone to the polls to choose a government
:36:06. > :36:10.in ten months. We'll get the latest
:36:11. > :36:12.from Belfast in just a moment. First though, Ellie Price profiles
:36:13. > :36:15.the new leader of Sinn Fein, Michelle O'Neill, who
:36:16. > :36:17.could soon be running Northern Ireland in partnership
:36:18. > :36:21.with her Unionist opponents. If anyone had ever said to me that,
:36:22. > :36:24.at some stage in the future, you'll be leading Sinn Fein
:36:25. > :36:27.in the North, I probably For me, being a Republican
:36:28. > :36:31.is a way of life. It's truly the biggest honour
:36:32. > :36:39.and privilege of my life. I feel an enormous responsibility
:36:40. > :36:44.on my shoulders and while I don't underestimate my task,
:36:45. > :36:46.given the changing political world, locally, nationally
:36:47. > :36:49.and internationally, Martin McGuinness said
:36:50. > :36:55.Michelle O'Neill's appointment was part of a generational change
:36:56. > :36:58.within his party and, unlike her predecessor,
:36:59. > :37:00.the 40-year-old has no past But that doesn't mean
:37:01. > :37:04.she is immune from controversy. Speaking to the BBC
:37:05. > :37:07.during the election campaign, Michelle O'Neill defended her
:37:08. > :37:10.decision to speak at I attended the commemoration
:37:11. > :37:15.of four young fellas who I knew and grew up with,
:37:16. > :37:18.four young fellas who found themselves
:37:19. > :37:20.in extraordinary circumstances. But they were also four young men
:37:21. > :37:24.who were involved in an IRA attack And we'll always have a different
:37:25. > :37:28.narrative on the past but that's where we need to get to in society,
:37:29. > :37:30.where we actually understand So is Sinn Fein's first female
:37:31. > :37:35.leader, who has already been a minister for agriculture
:37:36. > :37:37.and for health, really In a sense she is a fresher,
:37:38. > :37:43.maybe happier face of Sinn Fein that other people can
:37:44. > :37:47.actually engage with. On the other hand, the guys in dark
:37:48. > :37:51.suits are still around and the rest of the party hasn't quite changed
:37:52. > :37:54.so she is sort of leading from the front but whether or not
:37:55. > :37:56.she has the power... There will be a worry
:37:57. > :37:59.that she is perhaps a puppet and she doesn't actually
:38:00. > :38:01.have the authority that goes with her role and that she will
:38:02. > :38:04.receive instructions and it may take time for her to kind
:38:05. > :38:07.of get her elbows out and actually become the leader rather than just
:38:08. > :38:10.the spokesperson at the front. Michelle O'Neill's leadership
:38:11. > :38:12.will be tested from the outset. Her first challenge will be to find
:38:13. > :38:15.some solution to the deadlock with the DUP that led
:38:16. > :38:18.to the election in the first place. There is nothing like being thrown
:38:19. > :38:21.in at the deep end. Let's get the latest from Belfast
:38:22. > :38:27.now and speak to the BBC's political correspondent,
:38:28. > :38:38.Enda McClafferty. He is at the count. We here at the
:38:39. > :38:44.turnout has been relatively high, 60% compared to 55% last time. Does
:38:45. > :38:51.that higher turnout did any particular group and advantage? It
:38:52. > :38:54.does feel as if we have turned the clock back here in Northern Ireland
:38:55. > :38:59.some ten or 15 years, looking at the level of interest in this particular
:39:00. > :39:05.election this time round. In some constituencies, Michelle O'Neill for
:39:06. > :39:10.example, the turnout is up 13 percentage point and the average is
:39:11. > :39:13.ten percentage points. There are two factors for the botched energy
:39:14. > :39:16.scheme which has brought us to this situation and triggered the
:39:17. > :39:19.circumstances that led to the election. This is the first time
:39:20. > :39:23.voters are getting a chance to have their say and give their verdict on
:39:24. > :39:27.how everything has unravelled and how that botched energy scheme was
:39:28. > :39:31.managed by our politicians. The second and most significant factor
:39:32. > :39:35.is that this campaign was fought along tribal lines, very much the
:39:36. > :39:39.two larger parties using fear tactics are people to get them out
:39:40. > :39:41.and we know in the past in Northern Ireland, nothing motivate voters
:39:42. > :39:46.more than the fear of the other side. It looks like those are the
:39:47. > :39:49.buttons that were pushed and they have worked for the DUP and Sinn
:39:50. > :39:58.Fein in terms of getting people out. We are waiting on the result, we can
:39:59. > :40:02.see the people counting behind you but if the result, it may be
:40:03. > :40:07.different but not materially different from the assembly that
:40:08. > :40:11.went to the polls. Talk us through what happened next. When we know the
:40:12. > :40:18.result, what happens next in Belfast? Before I do that, the
:40:19. > :40:22.crucial factor here is that there are 18 fewer seats to go around in
:40:23. > :40:27.this election so it means business about damage limitation for the
:40:28. > :40:30.politicians, not about making gains but managing their losses because
:40:31. > :40:33.they know at the other end of this that their parties are going to be
:40:34. > :40:38.smaller in Stormont and they will not be able to wield as much power.
:40:39. > :40:43.In terms of how they restore the institutions here, we have a
:40:44. > :40:48.three-week period before we decide if we need another election or if we
:40:49. > :40:53.have put... Another election?! That is the option available. If there is
:40:54. > :41:00.no agreement after three weeks and no government in place and no thirst
:41:01. > :41:05.or debit the first Mr, they can trigger another election. -- Deputy
:41:06. > :41:09.First Minister. They might pass some emergency legislation to cut the
:41:10. > :41:13.Stormont institutions into cold storage and bring back direct rule.
:41:14. > :41:16.The parties know that the language they have been using was asked to
:41:17. > :41:19.change radically in the three weeks after the election if they are to
:41:20. > :41:24.find some kind of common ground and be able to come together and cobble
:41:25. > :41:26.some kind of agreement to allow the institutions to be restored but we
:41:27. > :41:30.are a long way off that and the indication seems to be that we are
:41:31. > :41:35.heading for a long period of stalemate here after the election.
:41:36. > :41:41.And part of the stalemate as I understand it is that Sinn Fein has
:41:42. > :41:45.been saying that they want -- they won't work with Arlene Foster as
:41:46. > :41:50.First Minister who was at the centre of the renewable energy scandal.
:41:51. > :41:54.Will they stick to that now the election is out of the way? Is it
:41:55. > :42:04.really a deal-breaker that they simply will not work with Arlene
:42:05. > :42:08.Foster of the DUP? Sinn Fein have backed themselves into a corner on
:42:09. > :42:12.that because they have been explicit in saying they will not work with
:42:13. > :42:15.her while there is a cloud over her harassment in the botched energy
:42:16. > :42:19.scheme. We know there is an enquiry to set up and look at that and Sinn
:42:20. > :42:22.Fein seem to indicate that until that inquiry returns it findings and
:42:23. > :42:27.there is a clean bill of health for Arlene Foster, they will not do
:42:28. > :42:30.business with her. Although it has been suggested in the final weeks of
:42:31. > :42:34.the election that there is some talk of a caretaker First Minister being
:42:35. > :42:38.brought in to allow us to get over this difficult phase. One thing is
:42:39. > :42:46.for sure, Sinn Fein will be in a difficult position because they have
:42:47. > :42:48.to decide if they want Arlene Foster in charge or if they want the
:42:49. > :42:51.Conservative government in Westminster in charge through direct
:42:52. > :42:54.rule and that does not sit easily with their voters. You better tell
:42:55. > :43:03.them not to be tabled away even after the count, they might need
:43:04. > :43:09.them again! Talking is through what might happen. This is the issue of
:43:10. > :43:13.what is on the British government's lap, which is Brexit, which is
:43:14. > :43:17.enormous on its own, and now the possibility that some would say the
:43:18. > :43:23.probability, of a second Scottish referendum which would be enormous
:43:24. > :43:28.on its own. And a potential political crisis in Northern Ireland
:43:29. > :43:32.continuing, coupled with the issue of how open will be with the Irish
:43:33. > :43:37.Republic. These are three huge things to have on any government's
:43:38. > :43:40.plate. And the Northern Ireland situation is vexing people in
:43:41. > :43:43.government and in Brussels. It is one issue people have been unable to
:43:44. > :43:49.resolve. I was speaking to a minister and asked if it had any
:43:50. > :43:53.idea about the border. Trying to sort that out is a big problem and I
:43:54. > :43:56.think we will end up with the reintroduction of direct rule. We
:43:57. > :44:01.had that dilemma facing Sinn Fein, if they go in with the DUP or back
:44:02. > :44:04.to direct rule and in some respects they could get more of what they
:44:05. > :44:09.want by going back to direct rule because there is disagreement about
:44:10. > :44:12.same-sex marriage with the DUP, the status of the Irish language and
:44:13. > :44:21.there is a view that Sinn Fein could get more out of Westminster than out
:44:22. > :44:26.of the DUP. The broader issue, does the Theresa May government have the
:44:27. > :44:31.breadth and depth to deal with three major got additional issues at once?
:44:32. > :44:36.There is a query on that and we should be wary of seeing it also
:44:37. > :44:41.negatively -- major constitutional issues. No doubt that Brexit has
:44:42. > :44:43.created this but in some ways it is the implosion of a political
:44:44. > :44:51.alliances of old that were unravelling anyway both the innate
:44:52. > :44:53.-- power-sharing has always been under the factory and has
:44:54. > :45:01.consolidated sectarianism in some ways. Best unsatisfactory. There is
:45:02. > :45:07.no identity politics thrown in and it is a bit gruesome. I don't think
:45:08. > :45:12.direct rule would be the same as in the past even though it would be
:45:13. > :45:17.feared by many in the nationalist community. There is a generational
:45:18. > :45:21.thing. I have been to Derry and I know many people see Michelle
:45:22. > :45:24.O'Neill in a different way. It was interesting in the package you
:45:25. > :45:30.showed that somebody said that she is a puppet which is a bit
:45:31. > :45:37.patronising. But a puppet of whom? She is her own woman as well. She
:45:38. > :45:40.won the position but also, you can see they are tired with the old
:45:41. > :45:45.parties, people want a new arrangement. And on your question
:45:46. > :45:48.about if the government can handle several constitutional crises at the
:45:49. > :45:52.same time, I have been asking that myself and I looked at how Theresa
:45:53. > :45:54.May when the government which is a centralised operation and big
:45:55. > :45:57.decisions have to go through the centre and so far has been fined
:45:58. > :46:00.because they have dealt with Brexit but I have always wondered how they
:46:01. > :46:03.will be able to cope in a centralised operation if you have to
:46:04. > :46:09.or three big things happening at the same time.
:46:10. > :46:12.Speaking of whether they are competent or not to handle the
:46:13. > :46:15.issues... There are over a hundred of them,
:46:16. > :46:18.and they're responsible for driving the machinery of Whitehall
:46:19. > :46:19.to deliver the But Government ministers are not
:46:20. > :46:22.like normal managers. They're hired and fired
:46:23. > :46:24.at the discretion of So, what makes someone good
:46:25. > :46:28.at being a minister? The Institute of Government has been
:46:29. > :46:31.beavering away at this subject and this week produced a report,
:46:32. > :46:33.including a handy six-point guide First on the list,
:46:34. > :46:42.the IFG recommends having The former Conservative Climate
:46:43. > :46:47.Change Minister, Greg Barker, told researchers, "you are there to drive
:46:48. > :46:52.a political agenda". Chris Huhne, former Secretary of
:46:53. > :47:00.State for Energy and Climate Change, recommends identifying a "very
:47:01. > :47:03.limited number" of priorities - Even when limited information
:47:04. > :47:11.is available, decisions must be made Fourth, they recommend encouraging
:47:12. > :47:27.teamwork and being prepared Former Minister of State
:47:28. > :47:37.for Pensions Steve Webb says Fifth, it is important to win public
:47:38. > :47:40.support for your actions and be As Mark Prisk, former Minister
:47:41. > :47:48.of State for Communities And last, but not least,
:47:49. > :48:20.earn the respect of Parliament - That is the tips. Nicola Hughes is
:48:21. > :48:25.the author of the report. Let me be unkind and say, you could file all
:48:26. > :48:31.six of these points just under a file called the bleeding obvious. I
:48:32. > :48:34.think one of the things is it is remarkable with ministers, they do
:48:35. > :48:40.these incredibly difficult busy jobs. They are thrown straight into
:48:41. > :48:45.them. You get a call from Number 10 and a car ride down to a Department
:48:46. > :48:49.and then that is it. You are in charge of a big department.
:48:50. > :48:53.Ministers do not have a lot of time to pause and think, how could I be
:48:54. > :48:57.good at this job and what does it involve? One thing we are saying is
:48:58. > :49:02.it is worth ministers listening to people who have done the job before,
:49:03. > :49:08.to get some advice, think about what they will do. Are there any training
:49:09. > :49:12.programmes for prospective ministers? Politicians are pretty
:49:13. > :49:17.resistant to anything that looks like corporate H R. If we compare
:49:18. > :49:22.that to CEOs of a big company. You would not expect a chief executive
:49:23. > :49:29.in the corporate world not to do any training or induction. There are
:49:30. > :49:35.ways that ministers can, if not to fall on HR training, at least take
:49:36. > :49:38.some time out. That is one thing we do at the Institute, to think about
:49:39. > :49:48.roles and learn how Whitehall works. If you were a backbench MP, we would
:49:49. > :49:52.go, you have got ambitions. Damian Green, the Work and Pensions
:49:53. > :49:58.Secretary, he said, ministers should be treated like company managers and
:49:59. > :50:02.subjected to corporate appraisals and hired or fired according to
:50:03. > :50:06.achievement levels. Doesn't that make the classic mistake to think of
:50:07. > :50:12.a minister as a corporate chief executive? They may need executive
:50:13. > :50:17.responsibilities... Competence. They may need to know how to run things
:50:18. > :50:22.being the chief executive of the company is very different from being
:50:23. > :50:26.a government minister. Absolutely. Ministers are pulled in all sorts of
:50:27. > :50:31.different directions. To be a good minister you do not just have to be
:50:32. > :50:35.a good policymaker and executive leader, you also have to be good on
:50:36. > :50:39.the media and come on to programmes like this and not make gaffes. You
:50:40. > :50:45.are still a politician when you are a minister. You still have your
:50:46. > :50:49.constituency to think about and work political networks. You are held to
:50:50. > :50:54.much more account than chief executives. Chief executive is of
:50:55. > :50:58.companies hardly ever give interviews. I cannot remember the
:50:59. > :51:02.last one was that they made do the odd business niche programme but
:51:03. > :51:05.they are never subjected to the kind of interviewing that politicians
:51:06. > :51:11.are. Some interesting interviews we have done have been business people
:51:12. > :51:18.who have come into the Government as ministers. They said about the
:51:19. > :51:23.pressure of the 24/7 operation and being in government is quite
:51:24. > :51:29.overwhelming. What are you take of the IOT advice? Great anecdotes.
:51:30. > :51:33.Well worth reading. I have read it. Thank you. What makes me nervous is
:51:34. > :51:37.we are already dominated by technocratic elite in politics.
:51:38. > :51:44.Anybody who is kind of suggesting that our corporate appraisals and
:51:45. > :51:50.goals. If they have ever worked in the corporate world, they will know
:51:51. > :51:55.what a load of smoke and mirrors that is in the corporate world. I
:51:56. > :51:59.have a dread of well-trained, very smooth people who do not believe
:52:00. > :52:06.anything when you say about a clear sense of purpose, knowing and
:52:07. > :52:11.believing in your brief. Politically. The worst ministers are
:52:12. > :52:15.the ones who think they do not want this job. There are a few where you
:52:16. > :52:19.think, they did not want this job but they got it as the minister. You
:52:20. > :52:24.want them to get into it but they also need a broader, political
:52:25. > :52:27.vision. That cannot be trained into someone and is the problem is
:52:28. > :52:31.slightly with the emphasis... I understand where you're coming from.
:52:32. > :52:36.One of the things we tried to reflect in our work is, as I was
:52:37. > :52:45.saying before, these are not managers elsewhere. The political
:52:46. > :52:51.instincts is developed from opposition MPs and on campaign trail
:52:52. > :52:55.without all very good skills. But you can learn about some of these.
:52:56. > :52:59.If you are a minister you might be a really effective opposition MP, a
:53:00. > :53:02.really effective campaigner. Going into a huge bummer when you are
:53:03. > :53:06.overseeing big operations, huge amounts of people, it does help to
:53:07. > :53:20.know how Whitehall works. Whatever we think about the
:53:21. > :53:24.policies, Michael Gove and George Osborne, they all had a clear vision
:53:25. > :53:29.and got on with it. I wonder how important the much fabled special at
:53:30. > :53:37.Pfizer is to be able to deliver that political vision. They are much
:53:38. > :53:44.criticised. -- special visions. Special advisers have a bit of a bad
:53:45. > :53:50.reputation in the media. We'll think of The Thick Of It. There have been
:53:51. > :53:53.incidents of bad behaviour by special advisers but the secretaries
:53:54. > :53:59.of state we interviewed found special advisers as a helpful way of
:54:00. > :54:03.getting political advice in these big department is full of civil
:54:04. > :54:09.servants. It is an ear to the ground and away to stay connected to the
:54:10. > :54:14.party. They can be challenged by ideas. Often when special advisers
:54:15. > :54:17.are appointed, it is summer may have a good, trusting relationship with
:54:18. > :54:23.and they can say, that is a terrible idea. Gerald Kaufman wrote a book
:54:24. > :54:27.about how to be a good minister. How have things changed since the days
:54:28. > :54:32.when he wrote that book? One thing is what you alluded to before. Media
:54:33. > :54:40.scrutiny has always been part of the role. To say we have a 24/7 media
:54:41. > :54:45.operation, a gaffe on telly or misplaced tweet could ruin a
:54:46. > :54:49.ministerial career pretty quickly. Aren't the most successful ministers
:54:50. > :54:53.those who have clear policy objectives and a clear road path to
:54:54. > :54:59.achieving them, and they leave the management of the Department to the
:55:00. > :55:03.civil service? That is not the job of the ministers. Civil servants are
:55:04. > :55:08.paid to manage. It is a minister prospect job to determine the
:55:09. > :55:12.policy. I remember Peter Walker, when he became the first Secretary
:55:13. > :55:15.of State for the environment when he began every morning meeting his
:55:16. > :55:23.political advisers. Civil servants were not allowed in. That is where
:55:24. > :55:29.he established the political priorities and then expected the
:55:30. > :55:34.civil servants to do that. Civil servants who are decisive and will
:55:35. > :55:38.set out a vision, or make the decisions and the calls and the
:55:39. > :55:42.civil servants will follow that. A minister who get involved in the
:55:43. > :55:45.micromanagement of the executive side of the department is not
:55:46. > :55:46.focusing on the right things. They are often not equipped to do it
:55:47. > :55:50.either. Y. If you've been too busy
:55:51. > :55:52.this week to stay up to speed with political
:55:53. > :55:54.developments, stay tuned. We've got our handy Daily Politics
:55:55. > :55:56.recap of the political A voice from the past
:55:57. > :56:04.was worried about the future. A little more charm and a lot less
:56:05. > :56:08.cheap rhetoric would do much to protect the interests
:56:09. > :56:14.of the United Kingdom. Critics derided Sir John
:56:15. > :56:18.Major as a bitter man. The Shadow Chancellor identified
:56:19. > :56:21.a new form of insurrection, a soft coup, and said there was one
:56:22. > :56:26.afoot to unseat Jeremy Corbyn. Nothing soft about the machinations
:56:27. > :56:28.within Ukip as ex-leader Nigel Farage turned on the party's
:56:29. > :56:34.only MP, Douglas Carswell. He has tried to undermine
:56:35. > :56:36.everything we have stood Retail tycoon Sir Philip Green
:56:37. > :56:42.is to spend ?363 million filling Good news for the pensioners
:56:43. > :56:47.but will it be enough And the Lords inflicted their first
:56:48. > :56:52.defeat on Government plans Ministers will resist the changes
:56:53. > :57:18.when the bill ping-pongs We are now entering the famous
:57:19. > :57:24.ping-pong period between the Lords and Commons over Article 50. Do you
:57:25. > :57:30.think that because Labour's heart is not quite in it, there will only be
:57:31. > :57:36.one round of ping-pong thing? I would suspect the Lords would amend
:57:37. > :57:42.the bill to protect the rights were nationals and get a vote for
:57:43. > :57:46.Parliament over EU negotiation stop it will go back to the House of
:57:47. > :57:51.Lords and that will be it. That is why we have heard so John Major
:57:52. > :57:55.speaking out, almost to despair at the lack of Parliamentary opposition
:57:56. > :57:59.going on. On the issue of EU nationals, I agree with the Lords on
:58:00. > :58:02.this but I do not think the Lords have any right to amend the bill. I
:58:03. > :58:11.might agree with them back, who the hell are they? How many more people
:58:12. > :58:20.are saying things like, who are the Lords? They are undemocratic. BBC
:58:21. > :58:24.documentary was an eye opener. One of the good things is people are now
:58:25. > :58:28.talking about democracy the whole time, partly because so many people
:58:29. > :58:37.have been anti-democratic in response to the vote. I must
:58:38. > :58:41.interrupt you. I must give you the answer to the quiz.
:58:42. > :58:42.Which Government agency has announced plans
:58:43. > :58:45.to recruit new staff with a tap on the shoulder -
:58:46. > :58:47.to try to help them avoid a workforce dominated by white,
:58:48. > :58:56.Thanks to Claire, George and all my guests.
:58:57. > :59:01.I'll be back on Sunday at 11am on BBC One with the Sunday Politics.