:00:37. > :00:39.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.Peers have started their last day of debate on the Brexit Bill.
:00:43. > :00:45.Will they inflict another defeat on the Government, giving Parliament
:00:46. > :00:54.a veto over the UK's final deal with the EU?
:00:55. > :00:56.He's known by some as Box Office Phil.
:00:57. > :00:59.So, can we expect a blockbuster, or a flop, from Chancellor Phillip
:01:00. > :01:03.In Stormont, the parties are meeting to try to resolve their differences
:01:04. > :01:04.and restore power-sharing in Northern Ireland.
:01:05. > :01:11.We'll talk about the stumbling blocks with the DUP.
:01:12. > :01:15.And why does the world's most famous bell have such an a-pealing sound?
:01:16. > :01:25.We'll talk to the experts who've been trying to find out.
:01:26. > :01:28.All that in the next hour, and I'm joined for all of it
:01:29. > :01:30.by Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron.
:01:31. > :01:33.His predecessor used to share power with the Conservatives,
:01:34. > :01:40.but today he's just sharing the studio with me - sorry Tim.
:01:41. > :01:48.That is probably better. I am sure it is.
:01:49. > :01:53.William Hague has used his Telegraph column this morning to urge
:01:54. > :01:56.Theresa May to call a snap election to try to boost the slender
:01:57. > :01:58.Conservative majority in the Commons.
:01:59. > :02:00.And a bigger majority would certainly be handy for the PM
:02:01. > :02:08.because today the House of Lords could inflict a second defeat
:02:09. > :02:11.on the Government over the Article 50 Bill that will trigger Brexit.
:02:12. > :02:14.The amendment, which is designed to force Mrs May back
:02:15. > :02:15.to the negotiating table if Parliament doesn't
:02:16. > :02:19.like her eventual deal with the EU, would then have to be accepted
:02:20. > :02:20.or rejected in the Commons next week.
:02:21. > :02:22.Well, peers have begun debating in the last hour
:02:23. > :02:29.And they started by discussing a liberal Democrat proposal. We are
:02:30. > :02:35.discussing this for the second time, rather better crafted thanks to the
:02:36. > :02:38.intervention of the noble lord. The Liberal Democrats do not like the
:02:39. > :02:44.result of the referendum that took place last June. I don't dismiss the
:02:45. > :02:51.patronising advice he gave to the Liberal Democrats, or to those
:02:52. > :02:56.supporting this amendment. But, I do believe that the public needs to see
:02:57. > :03:01.what is on offer. We have heard ger in the course of the bill, whatever
:03:02. > :03:08.they voted for on 23rd of June last year, it was not to get poorer. I
:03:09. > :03:12.cannot see that the Government in the end will be presented with a
:03:13. > :03:17.deal which does not mean they will get poorer.
:03:18. > :03:20.So that was the Lords a short while ago, and later today they'll
:03:21. > :03:23.be voting on whether to give Parliament a veto on the
:03:24. > :03:27.If the amendment is passed then it will be up to MPs to decide
:03:28. > :03:29.whether to accept or reject it next week.
:03:30. > :03:31.We're joined now by a Conservative MP who rebelled
:03:32. > :03:34.on this issue when the Bill was first before the Commons -
:03:35. > :03:42.Welcome to the Daily Politics. The Brexit bill will come back to the
:03:43. > :03:48.Commons in a week. Will you support it then? We will need to see come
:03:49. > :03:52.back -- what comes back and what the response from the Government will
:03:53. > :03:57.be. There are to macro issues for me. The rights of the citizens and
:03:58. > :04:00.whether we get a final deal. If many of us do not hear satisfactory
:04:01. > :04:05.reassurances from the Government, I probably would be minded to back
:04:06. > :04:13.them. Why think more of your colleagues will join you this time
:04:14. > :04:18.around? On Euro citizens, definitely. It depends on how it is
:04:19. > :04:23.packages and what assurances we get. I do not believe any of the most
:04:24. > :04:32.die-hard remainers believes it is appropriate to thwart the referendum
:04:33. > :04:38.result. Tampon -- Brexit will happen. Many of us are sympathetic
:04:39. > :04:43.to that argument. Many of you believe there will be a meaningful
:04:44. > :04:46.vote. What is your problem? The vote that came through the Has a few
:04:47. > :04:50.weeks ago, we were promised it would be meaningful. As the debate
:04:51. > :04:54.unfolded it appeared it would be almost a token gesture of a debate
:04:55. > :04:58.and a final deal would already have been put to the EU. We need to see
:04:59. > :05:02.it before it gets there and that will be the sticking point. Do you
:05:03. > :05:07.think you were misled by the Government? I do not know about
:05:08. > :05:15.being think it is a moving feast. It is about how strongly some of the
:05:16. > :05:20.parliamentarians feel in our role. At the 11th hour, a few of us did
:05:21. > :05:23.vote against it. I am hopeful they will understand that Parliament
:05:24. > :05:35.should have a greater say. You say you represent a Remain constituency.
:05:36. > :05:40.My constituency and I represent South Cambridgeshire, which is home
:05:41. > :05:44.to some of the greatest scientific and academic brains and business
:05:45. > :05:46.minds in the country. They have enjoyed their success because of
:05:47. > :05:50.collaboration with the EU. They are worried about this, as am I. It is
:05:51. > :05:54.important that we have confidence that the deal we have will not
:05:55. > :05:58.damage those economies because we contribute to the UK economy. It is
:05:59. > :06:03.not just about South Cambridgeshire, it is the role we play for the wider
:06:04. > :06:10.UK economy. Is that indication that you have had that the Government
:06:11. > :06:17.will give ground? Personally, to me, not at this stage. I have not heard
:06:18. > :06:20.anything. Let's talk about another Parliamentary Bill, the children and
:06:21. > :06:23.social work bill. You have an amendment down on that as well for
:06:24. > :06:28.that this is following the decision made by government to close what has
:06:29. > :06:35.been known as the Lord dubs child refugee scheme. What are you wanting
:06:36. > :06:40.the Government to do? I want the Government to recognise their offers
:06:41. > :06:43.of capacity. Some areas have significant fostering challenges.
:06:44. > :06:47.Some areas like Kent and Croydon have taken the body and that have
:06:48. > :06:50.come across from the continent. There are still local authorities
:06:51. > :06:54.with their hands up saying they can take more. I want the Government to
:06:55. > :06:57.promised to consult on a regular basis to those authorities would it
:06:58. > :07:03.is a moving feast. This picture will change when offers of help, we
:07:04. > :07:08.should do our best to match those with vulnerable children,
:07:09. > :07:16.particularly and Europe, where they are struggling to cope. I think we
:07:17. > :07:21.should offer those places. They said they were full and did not have the
:07:22. > :07:25.capacity. Do you think the Government was misled? I think it
:07:26. > :07:30.was poor admin. I do not think the consultation was done thoroughly
:07:31. > :07:35.enough. When the Government consulted on the 20,000 refugees
:07:36. > :07:38.from the Syrian region they use the communication lines of the LGA. They
:07:39. > :07:44.did not do it this time. It was rushed. Some opportunities have been
:07:45. > :07:49.missed. There will be some cross-party support. What about
:07:50. > :07:55.Conservative MPs? Do you think up to 30 Conservative MPs would back you
:07:56. > :08:00.on that amendment? There are ten who have physically put our names on the
:08:01. > :08:04.amendment. When you add in those who voted Dubs and joined in a letter
:08:05. > :08:13.for the Prime Minister recently or joined the backbench motion my name
:08:14. > :08:16.was on a few weeks ago, we have remained strong about this. Local
:08:17. > :08:22.authorities have said they could do more. Why should we, as a nation,
:08:23. > :08:29.say no to them? About schools, there has been an announcement at ?320
:08:30. > :08:33.million will be made available for new schools. We know the Prime
:08:34. > :08:38.Minister is in favour of new grammar schools you have called this policy
:08:39. > :08:42.is toxic. Do you still hold to that? If it is that on its own, I do not
:08:43. > :08:48.think it works. Free schools have been known to work. We also need to
:08:49. > :08:51.look at technical education. All the great pupils and teachers have been
:08:52. > :08:56.pulled into the best schools and risk leaving anyone else behind
:08:57. > :09:00.four. We need a balanced policy. Personally, Cambridge has been one
:09:01. > :09:08.of the lowest funded authorities in the country for years. I think we
:09:09. > :09:13.are at the bottom five now. It should be for the benefit of all
:09:14. > :09:21.pupils rather than in selected areas? Without being cheeky, what do
:09:22. > :09:26.you agree with your government on? I plate with the Government about 98%
:09:27. > :09:30.of the time. It is just that all of these issues have come together at
:09:31. > :09:36.once. Six of your Tory colleagues voted with you to defy the whip. The
:09:37. > :09:40.thing that could go up to 20, as has been reported? I think it is
:09:41. > :09:46.possible. I will be honest with you, I have been focusing on the Dubs
:09:47. > :09:48.Amendment. I think that debate will pick up towards the end of the week
:09:49. > :09:50.but I think it is possible. I'm joined now by the former
:09:51. > :10:03.Secretary of State for work What do you say to Heidi Allen and
:10:04. > :10:08.their six colleagues who have defied the whip again? -- her six
:10:09. > :10:13.colleagues? The Government has made already a very big concession over
:10:14. > :10:16.this. They explained at the time of the last debates they were prepared,
:10:17. > :10:23.quite happily, to have this debate before. They had finalised it. On
:10:24. > :10:28.the meaningful vote? It is whether you agree with it or do not agree
:10:29. > :10:32.with it. I think this is the point about the mess with the particular
:10:33. > :10:36.are going through now, it is the open-ended nature on whether or not
:10:37. > :10:40.Parliament can go back and continue to find an agreement. Nothing will
:10:41. > :10:44.give the European negotiators greater hope than actually they
:10:45. > :10:49.would end up with a total chaotic end to this. It is not a meaningful
:10:50. > :10:55.vote? If you do not agree with that, there is no point in the Government
:10:56. > :10:57.trying to sign a particular agreement. That is the point. The
:10:58. > :11:01.point is, for the most part, those that at this and the giveaway is the
:11:02. > :11:05.debate going on right now, they do not see this as an end. In other
:11:06. > :11:09.words: they would rather see a referendum of something else that
:11:10. > :11:13.says we don't want to leave the European Union, let's have that
:11:14. > :11:18.vote. He is talking about you, Tim Farron. What about the idea of
:11:19. > :11:21.talking about the substantive, meaningful vote? It will allow
:11:22. > :11:26.European leaders to say they know Parliament will reject a deal if it
:11:27. > :11:30.is bad enough. We'll Theresa May a very bad deal. The vote at the end
:11:31. > :11:37.of the process is important. If the vote is going it is a bad deal or a
:11:38. > :11:41.no deal. It is playing Russian roulette with five chambers filled.
:11:42. > :11:48.It is a nonsense. What is your talented? It is about the meaningful
:11:49. > :11:53.vote in the end. Whilst I support their being a meaningful vote, and I
:11:54. > :11:57.support that, if it is passed, then we as Liberal Democrats will support
:11:58. > :12:00.that. The problem is, at the end of all of this there will be a deal of
:12:01. > :12:04.one kind or another and none of us know what it looks like. In the end,
:12:05. > :12:08.it will either be decided by politicians or decided by the
:12:09. > :12:11.people. We think there is no arguing for it to be decided and stitched up
:12:12. > :12:17.by the producers when it could be put to the people. What do you say
:12:18. > :12:23.to that? To be fair to Tim, he wants a referendum. He has been open about
:12:24. > :12:26.that. We can debate that. There has been an honest debate in the House
:12:27. > :12:30.of Lords about the second referendum. I do not agree with it.
:12:31. > :12:36.I do not think the majority will agree with it. The problem with this
:12:37. > :12:39.amendment which is likely to be passed, the messy, what does
:12:40. > :12:44.meaningful mean? It is hiding behind the reality. Ideally do not agree
:12:45. > :12:50.with it and you want to test public opinion again, I do not agree with
:12:51. > :12:55.air and I think they have voted. It is a kind of referendum by the back
:12:56. > :12:58.door. Is that motivation by your Tory colleagues? I was particular
:12:59. > :13:02.struck over the previous referendum last week and one of my conservative
:13:03. > :13:06.colleagues tried to like in the position of the EU nationals to
:13:07. > :13:10.Ugandan refugees. I thought was a bit insulting to Ugandan refugees
:13:11. > :13:15.who are suffering tyranny and about to be executed and murdered, many of
:13:16. > :13:18.them, that they would somehow, EU nationals, difficult as the subject
:13:19. > :13:24.may be, actually associated with that, I thought it was ridiculous
:13:25. > :13:28.and an amendment was nonsense. It is not an analogy I would have drawn. I
:13:29. > :13:32.think it is a real issue for our standing across Europe that we have
:13:33. > :13:37.not allowed those EU citizens who have raised their families, pay
:13:38. > :13:48.taxes, worked in our NHS, the right to remain. We are not saying, do not
:13:49. > :13:52.do so now. It is inhumane to have people who are our neighbours,
:13:53. > :13:56.friends and fellow citizens in many ways, to keep them hanging on like
:13:57. > :14:01.this. They are a bargaining chip. Otherwise people would say they
:14:02. > :14:05.should be deported. I was in favour of giving EU nationals are right to
:14:06. > :14:10.remain and setting a date for it. The difference and what has changed
:14:11. > :14:15.is we are within weeks of triggering Article 50. Theresa May went over to
:14:16. > :14:20.Europe that to months ago and said, why don't we kill this stone dead?
:14:21. > :14:26.If you agree that for UK nationals and EU nationals can set a date and
:14:27. > :14:30.that is that. Within weeks of Article 50, this amendment passed
:14:31. > :14:34.last week only talks about a report coming back. The key thing is, get
:14:35. > :14:38.Article 50 triggered. Theresa May has made it very clear that her
:14:39. > :14:42.first priority is to settle citizens in the UK and citizens in the EU in
:14:43. > :14:46.their respective locations with guaranteed rights. I think that can
:14:47. > :14:50.be done in five minutes. Are you just being sore losers? It is
:14:51. > :14:57.inhuman to treat European citizens in this way. That is something that
:14:58. > :15:00.is in the hands of the European Union member states. They will make
:15:01. > :15:05.those decisions. What we can effect is what we should be focusing on. If
:15:06. > :15:10.you know my patch, it is not a terribly diverse part of the world.
:15:11. > :15:13.I can tell you the Catholic primary School in Windermere, the heart of
:15:14. > :15:17.the Lake District, the majority of young children, primary school age,
:15:18. > :15:24.are from European and non-UK backgrounds. We have seen several
:15:25. > :15:27.families leave already. It affects children as well as their parents
:15:28. > :15:32.and our FAQs that as well. It is not just inhuman we are doing this to
:15:33. > :15:37.other human beings that it is counter-productive to an economy
:15:38. > :15:40.like ours in the Lake District. Are you being human? Families could be
:15:41. > :15:44.left hanging. It could take a few years.
:15:45. > :15:48.It's not the Government's intention in any shape or form to start
:15:49. > :15:52.kicking people out, that's not going to happen. She has said, which is
:15:53. > :15:55.logical and I have had plenty of British citizens living abroad
:15:56. > :16:00.saying please don't abandon us, because the reality is, as we leave
:16:01. > :16:05.we have to protect their rights and I don't think that this close to
:16:06. > :16:09.Article 50 being triggered that we gain anything by a tokenistic
:16:10. > :16:14.gesture that says we somehow place EU citizens above UK citizens when
:16:15. > :16:17.it comes to negotiations. This can be settled immediately, if the
:16:18. > :16:22.European Union really behaved rather better they would have been able to
:16:23. > :16:26.settle this by now, it's a stroke of a pen, yes, here ale the date,
:16:27. > :16:30.everybody can stay where they are. It's equally symbolic we choose not
:16:31. > :16:36.to give EU citizens... We don't choose to do that. We choose to
:16:37. > :16:40.look... Let Tim talk. You say it's tokenistic, you can say the same in
:16:41. > :16:43.reverse. What you do symbolises who you are and what country you are.
:16:44. > :16:47.It's dangerous if we are sending out a message to the countries in which
:16:48. > :16:50.British people make their home, those UK citizens, that somehow the
:16:51. > :16:55.reverse, those people from the EU in the UK, can be treated in this
:16:56. > :16:58.appalling way. What does it say about our British citizens, we don't
:16:59. > :17:02.really care much about you? You have a second rate value compared to EU
:17:03. > :17:05.citizens? The point I am making is the UK citizens in the European
:17:06. > :17:09.Union are more likely to be poorly treated because of the way we are
:17:10. > :17:13.treating EU citizens in the UK. On this issue, on EU nationals and the
:17:14. > :17:19.meaningful vote, do you see a standoff with the two Houses? No,
:17:20. > :17:23.Labour has made it abundantly clear that should these be reversed,
:17:24. > :17:26.they've been said they will whip the other way, in other words, their
:17:27. > :17:30.view is we had a go, we didn't succeed, it will go through. I don't
:17:31. > :17:35.think the Liberals will but they don't make up the majority. You
:17:36. > :17:38.don't stand a chance of getting anywhere with this When he was
:17:39. > :17:40.leader of the opposition the Conservatives tended to try and be
:17:41. > :17:45.an opponent to the Labour Government. I think the real problem
:17:46. > :17:48.you have, whether you voted for or against Brexit, you have a Labour
:17:49. > :17:52.Party and a Conservative Party holding hands together off the hard
:17:53. > :17:55.Brexit cliff-edge, there needs to be a decent moderate alternative to the
:17:56. > :17:59.Tories t will have to be us. Is it right to use the unelected Lords
:18:00. > :18:04.where you have many Lib Dem pierce to frustrate this You use the system
:18:05. > :18:07.in front of you. We support a democratically elected House of
:18:08. > :18:10.Lords and we are the only party who voted to do that in the last party,
:18:11. > :18:12.we were frustrated by the Labour and Conservatives. You use the system
:18:13. > :18:15.that you have got. It might be easier if you had a bigger majority
:18:16. > :18:19.and the way to get a bigger majority, potentially, is if there
:18:20. > :18:23.were an election as was suggested by William Hague, what do you think of
:18:24. > :18:27.his proposal? I don't agree with William on this, I think that I
:18:28. > :18:31.agree with Theresa May, I think that the British public would have a dim
:18:32. > :18:35.view of us if, because there seems to be a short-term advantage, we
:18:36. > :18:39.simply said, I tell you what, let's make the most of this that before we
:18:40. > :18:43.would start. You see it as a short-term advantage? I think the
:18:44. > :18:46.point is we were elected to govern. We have had this referendum. The
:18:47. > :18:50.British people have a right to expect that we govern to get that
:18:51. > :18:55.sorted, to break that in the middle and say let's have a hiatus for
:18:56. > :19:00.weeks while we go to the polls, leave all of that hanging, I think
:19:01. > :19:04.would be wrong. My sense is the temptation is there, but I think
:19:05. > :19:07.this shows real leadership when you resist a temptation for short-term
:19:08. > :19:11.advantage and say the interests of the country are that we govern
:19:12. > :19:15.stably over the next years to get this sorted and then we go to the
:19:16. > :19:19.polls to say we have done it, what's your view? You say it's a temptation
:19:20. > :19:25.and the polls are good for the Conservatives at the moment, the
:19:26. > :19:29.timing could be good. If things get tough other the great repeal bill
:19:30. > :19:35.will you be thinking we should have called the election? There are
:19:36. > :19:39.different things, if you hit a brick wall during the course of the great
:19:40. > :19:45.reform act, the repeal bill, which is to repeal the 1972 European
:19:46. > :19:48.communities act, and the Lords was intranche yent over that, that's a
:19:49. > :19:51.different set of examples, then if you get to the point you are trueing
:19:52. > :19:55.to get something through legitimately that's when you have
:19:56. > :19:59.the right to say we can't continue to govern, it's time for a mandate.
:20:00. > :20:03.Until that arrives our job is to govern, I think. A bigger majority
:20:04. > :20:04.if the official opposition supports you in everything. Let's leave it
:20:05. > :20:07.there. The question for today
:20:08. > :20:12.is about a plan by shadow chancellor John McDonnell to foster
:20:13. > :20:13.Labour Party unity. According to his team he's planning
:20:14. > :20:16.to launch an 'offensive' to win over colleagues -
:20:17. > :20:19.but what type of offensive is it? Is it a) A charm offensive
:20:20. > :20:21.b) A tea offensive c) A military offensive
:20:22. > :20:24.or d) An offensive smell At the end of the show Tim will give
:20:25. > :20:31.us the correct answer. Now, tomorrow sees the first Budget
:20:32. > :20:34.since Theresa May entered Number 10, it will also be the first Budget
:20:35. > :20:42.for Chancellor Philip Hammond. His colleagues call him
:20:43. > :20:44.Box Office Phil, somewhat But tomorrow at least
:20:45. > :20:46.he'll get star billing. So, as the house lights go down
:20:47. > :20:50.and the opening music starts up, can we expect a mega-budget blockbuster?
:20:51. > :20:53.There will be new cash Controversially, these
:20:54. > :20:57.schools could be grammars, and there will also be more money
:20:58. > :21:00.to rebuild and refurbish Over a billion will be pledged
:21:01. > :21:09.to ease the pressure on social care and there will be an announcement
:21:10. > :21:12.of a review into its funding. Businesses could get more help
:21:13. > :21:15.with up to ?300 million extra to help them deal with revalued
:21:16. > :21:17.business rates and the Chancellor will also pledge half a billion
:21:18. > :21:22.to shake up vocational training, including the introduction
:21:23. > :21:28.of a new T-level qualification. There could also be a few
:21:29. > :21:31.scary scenes for some - the national insurance rate
:21:32. > :21:36.for self-employed workers is expected to rise from 9% to 12% -
:21:37. > :21:41.bringing it into line with the rate employees pay and we could also see
:21:42. > :21:45.an increase in alcohol duties. Both Labour and the Lib Dems seem
:21:46. > :21:51.to think there should have Labour are demanding between eight
:21:52. > :21:55.and 12 billion extra to help fund the NHS and social care
:21:56. > :21:58.and the Liberal Democrats have called for an extra four billion
:21:59. > :22:01.to fund health and social care. Speaking last night,
:22:02. > :22:06.the Prime Minister said the new schools money was aimed
:22:07. > :22:08.at increasing the opportunity Crucially, what we're announcing
:22:09. > :22:14.as half a billion pounds of investment in schools,
:22:15. > :22:16.320 million of which That will create around
:22:17. > :22:22.70,000 new school places. What this is about is ensuring that
:22:23. > :22:25.people can know that their child will have a good school place
:22:26. > :22:28.and all the opportunities that We're joined now by the Conservative
:22:29. > :22:43.MP Suella Fernandes. Welcome to the Daily Politics. ?320
:22:44. > :22:48.million for 140 new schools as a one-off payment. Is that right? I
:22:49. > :22:51.think this is great news. Is it a one-off payment? I think that this
:22:52. > :22:55.is an investment into new school places... It's not every year,
:22:56. > :22:59.that's what I am trying to establish, it's a one-off payment
:23:00. > :23:01.for 140 new schools? We heard the Prime Minister say it will create
:23:02. > :23:07.thousands more new school places which are needed as the population
:23:08. > :23:10.increases. What's important is that many of those will be free school
:23:11. > :23:14.places. We have seen how the free school project has been a success. I
:23:15. > :23:18.founded a free school myself. With a team of teachers, local volunteers,
:23:19. > :23:22.I still chair the board of governors. What's fantastic about
:23:23. > :23:24.this is it is locally led, community-driven. And really a
:23:25. > :23:29.response to the needs of an area. How many of them will be grammar
:23:30. > :23:34.selective schools? I hope that many groups will seek to open new grammar
:23:35. > :23:38.schools. You don't know? No, that's what it's about, it's about choice
:23:39. > :23:41.and freedom. This is not about some prescription which is coming from
:23:42. > :23:46.Whitehall and being imposed down on every town in Britain. Except it was
:23:47. > :23:53.Theresa May who wanted a new generation of grammar schools. She
:23:54. > :23:56.wanted a more metiocrattic society. So 140 schools with a pot of money
:23:57. > :24:00.that isn't going to be very much when you divide it up is hardly the
:24:01. > :24:06.grammar school revolution she talked about. I don't know about that. I
:24:07. > :24:09.think that the ban which was imposed in 1997 on grammar schools will
:24:10. > :24:16.hopefully be lifted, that's what is proposed. That will allow the choice
:24:17. > :24:19.to groups to see whether a grammar school is right for that area. And
:24:20. > :24:23.there is lots of other options which are attached to opening grammar
:24:24. > :24:26.schools. We want to see universities open and the independent sector open
:24:27. > :24:29.them. We want to have grammar schools have a feeder school from a
:24:30. > :24:32.primary school from an area of disadvantage. This is a really
:24:33. > :24:36.exciting opportunity for our children in the next generation.
:24:37. > :24:39.Right. At that point you may be looking at only ten, 20 grammar
:24:40. > :24:44.schools, so it's hardly anything for the Lib Dems to get too sup jet
:24:45. > :24:48.about? It seems to me -- upset about It seems a crazy educational
:24:49. > :24:50.experiment which takes away money when times are tight for Philip
:24:51. > :24:55.Hammond from what's really important. We know over the next
:24:56. > :25:04.three years, ?3 billion taken out of schools budgets in real terms, in my
:25:05. > :25:08.patch that's 625 fewer teachers in Cumbria and some Department for
:25:09. > :25:11.Education has a bright idea to spend something to add little value.
:25:12. > :25:16.That's the point, it's the finances and where they should go. The
:25:17. > :25:20.National Audit Office warned of 8% real terms funding gap for schools
:25:21. > :25:25.up to 2020. In cash terms, yes, the pot may be getting bigger, but there
:25:26. > :25:29.is an 8% real terms cut. How can that be the way to fund schools of
:25:30. > :25:33.the future? Well, actually what we have seen is a protective budget for
:25:34. > :25:38.schools sips the Conservatives were elected. That's very important
:25:39. > :25:40.because despite conditions of austerity and difficult economic
:25:41. > :25:44.conditions per pupil funding has remained the same. That's important
:25:45. > :25:48.to allow the creation of new school places, we will need new school
:25:49. > :25:52.places and that's what this announcement is about. If there is
:25:53. > :25:56.an 8% real terms funding cut to schools funding, even if as I said
:25:57. > :26:00.there was an increase in cash terms, you are not taking into account the
:26:01. > :26:04.increase in the number of pupils or at the moment rising inflation. I
:26:05. > :26:07.say again how can schools be asked to provide the same level of
:26:08. > :26:12.education with more pupils and less money in real terms? As I have said,
:26:13. > :26:17.the schools budget has been protected. What we are seeing is by
:26:18. > :26:22.allowing more freedom to schools to determine their spending choices as
:26:23. > :26:26.we have seen in the free school I chair we have more cost-effective
:26:27. > :26:30.decisions made on how you recruit, how you set your salaries. That's
:26:31. > :26:34.how schools can save on efficiencies and save money and actually be more
:26:35. > :26:39.cost-effective in the long run. How much more money would you like to
:26:40. > :26:44.see going into the budget? First of all, you have a ?60 billion budget
:26:45. > :26:48.Brexit war chest that Philip Hammond... That's difficult to say!
:26:49. > :26:52.Although we don't know exactly where that's coming from. But it would...
:26:53. > :26:56.A good question. The point is as an official part of this budget, to be
:26:57. > :27:00.fair to Philip Hammond, we often talk about black holes in budgets,
:27:01. > :27:06.it's not a black hole, it's going to put it in the budget, it's an amount
:27:07. > :27:09.of money, ?60 billion which is about the Brexit war chest, where does the
:27:10. > :27:15.money come from? The Government has chosen and... You borrow the money
:27:16. > :27:18.The Government has chosen to set aside ?60 billion to pay for the
:27:19. > :27:24.cost of a hard Brexit. Outside the single market. It set that up, it's
:27:25. > :27:28.been very honest. They're borrowing less, aren't they, borrowing less,
:27:29. > :27:32.about ?12 billion to start with that is used for this Brexit war chest.
:27:33. > :27:35.In terms of your funding for schools, you would be borrowing that
:27:36. > :27:41.extra money? No, the money we are talking about when it comes to
:27:42. > :27:46.Brexit, you can't have good quality schools or indeed a - it's obvious,
:27:47. > :27:50.even Philip Hammond is stating this, by having this ?60 billion Brexit
:27:51. > :27:54.war chest, that is there to pay for the cost, even this Government
:27:55. > :27:57.admits, will happen as a consequence of a hard Brexit. That is not the
:27:58. > :28:01.result of the referendum. That's a result of a Government choice to
:28:02. > :28:04.take us out of the single market. We are looking at what the Liberal
:28:05. > :28:08.Democrats would do in terms of... You wouldn't need the ?60 billion.
:28:09. > :28:14.You would be spending that money on schools and hospitals? Absolutely.
:28:15. > :28:18.The borrowing for that would go up? To be clearings, there is ?60
:28:19. > :28:20.billion put into the budget to pay for a hard Brexit that nobody voted
:28:21. > :28:25.for because it wasn't on the ballot paper. We would be in the single
:28:26. > :28:28.market. We would not need the ?60 billion shgsz you could spend that
:28:29. > :28:32.on health and education. Why is that ?60 billion coming for the war chest
:28:33. > :28:36.for Brexit? I think that we are laying the foundations for a strong
:28:37. > :28:41.economy. We are seeing Government spending, sorry, the deficit has
:28:42. > :28:45.been reduced by two thirds and tax receipts come up. Recently. But
:28:46. > :28:50.where is the ?60 billion coming from? We have seen the economy grow
:28:51. > :28:54.over all the quarters by 0. 6% in the last quarter. You don't know
:28:55. > :28:56.where it's coming from? A strong economy is providing the foundations
:28:57. > :29:01.for greater public spending like this. On the ?60 billion because
:29:02. > :29:06.it's a lot of money and if the Lib Dems are going to make claims that's
:29:07. > :29:10.how they would pay for spending commitments, where is that money
:29:11. > :29:13.coming from? There are lots of, as I say, we have been, the economy is in
:29:14. > :29:17.a strong position. That doesn't answer the question. Lots of people
:29:18. > :29:22.will say it's not completely in a strong position when you are looking
:29:23. > :29:30.to take out ?60 billion. Well, as I say, we have reduced the deficit, we
:29:31. > :29:34.have cut public spending borrowing, there are receipts increase, tax
:29:35. > :29:37.receipt increases from say the cutting corporation tax which
:29:38. > :29:43.brought through ?43 billion last year alone. There are lots of great
:29:44. > :29:46.examples of how the Government is balancing the books, providing the
:29:47. > :29:49.firm foundation for a strong economy so that vital investment can be made
:29:50. > :29:54.into our public services such as schools and social care and the NHS.
:29:55. > :29:58.You have talked about fair taxation, what does that mean? That's a good
:29:59. > :30:03.question, it's about making sure people pay what they can afford. So
:30:04. > :30:07.tax rises on whom We take the view if you are looking at tax rises you
:30:08. > :30:12.have to make sure they are loaded towards those people who have most
:30:13. > :30:16.wealth and most income. We are talking assets We don't want tax
:30:17. > :30:19.rises, one of the worries I have at the moment is that the... You have
:30:20. > :30:22.just said you do want to put rises on people who can afford it. If you
:30:23. > :30:25.are going to increase taxes that's what you would do. We have made it
:30:26. > :30:29.clear it looks like the area where there is a legitimate strong case
:30:30. > :30:33.for there to be a form of tax increase and indeed a new form of
:30:34. > :30:39.taxation, is one ringfenced for health and social care. Politicians
:30:40. > :30:43.will all agree that our NHS is of immense importance, social care is
:30:44. > :30:45.important and is in crisis, yet no one will come up with more than a
:30:46. > :30:51.sticking plaster solution to get through this. We took the view that
:30:52. > :30:53.William Beforage wrote that report in the 40s... What are your
:30:54. > :31:12.proposals today to fund that You would put that on tax rises? Not
:31:13. > :31:17.in this year. We take that from the 60 billion the Gutman does not
:31:18. > :31:22.need... Let's talk about who you are going to put the tax rises on? What
:31:23. > :31:30.level of wealth are you talking about? We have an expert panel that
:31:31. > :31:33.has been set up. It includes people like David Nicholson and leading
:31:34. > :31:39.experts in health and social care. They are attempting to if I can
:31:40. > :31:44.state it so grandly, do a beverage for the 21st century. Put together a
:31:45. > :31:48.plan and offer it to people as a new deal, a new contract. Among the
:31:49. > :31:53.things coming from those proposals, it would be likely to be a hype of
:31:54. > :32:06.the Kate, ring fenced tax. I do not want to make it up by fighting on
:32:07. > :32:11.the back of a fag packet. We need to ask -- if we need to ask people to
:32:12. > :32:17.pay a little more, we should be straightforward and honest enough to
:32:18. > :32:21.ask people to so do. It has lost a tenth of its budget since 2010 and
:32:22. > :32:24.5000 care beds have been lost in the past 18 months. There are more
:32:25. > :32:31.people growing older who will live an awful lot longer. Do you agree
:32:32. > :32:36.the system is on the verge of collapse? On the budget, we have
:32:37. > :32:46.ring fenced NHS spending when we got elected in 2015 foot up that means
:32:47. > :32:47.?4 billion investment this year and ?10 billion by 2020. That is only
:32:48. > :32:50.possible because we have been prudent with our fiscal arrangements
:32:51. > :32:56.in this country. That allows us to show what we have achieved. We have
:32:57. > :33:00.achieved 10,000 more doctors and 6000 more nurses. It does not say
:33:01. > :33:05.why social care has lost a tenth of its budget. There are pressures on
:33:06. > :33:09.social careful that there are 1 million more people over 65 than
:33:10. > :33:14.there were in 2010. Last year alone there were 23 million and admission
:33:15. > :33:22.is more to A This is an increase on 2010. There are precious and I'm
:33:23. > :33:23.sure the chance will take this into account when he gives his
:33:24. > :33:27.announcement tomorrow. Talks continue at Stormont this
:33:28. > :33:29.morning aimed at restoring the Northern Ireland Executive
:33:30. > :33:30.following last week's The parties have just three weeks
:33:31. > :33:34.to resolve their differences or the Northern Ireland Secretary
:33:35. > :33:37.could call fresh elections or seek The elections ended the unionist
:33:38. > :33:39.majority at Stormont, with Sinn Fein now one seat behind
:33:40. > :33:43.the largest party, the DUP. Crucial to the discussion will be
:33:44. > :33:46.the role of DUP leader, Arlene Foster, with Sinn Fein
:33:47. > :33:49.insisting they will not go back into government with
:33:50. > :33:52.Mrs Foster as First Minister. Let's take a look at
:33:53. > :33:55.what the leaders of the DUP We want to see the negotiations
:33:56. > :34:04.working for the people of Northern Ireland,
:34:05. > :34:05.that's our focus. That's the mandate
:34:06. > :34:07.that's been given to us. We actually increased our
:34:08. > :34:09.mandate in the election Our vote was up in every
:34:10. > :34:14.single constituency Therefore, we very clearly
:34:15. > :34:19.speak for unionism now. They want respect
:34:20. > :34:27.in the institutions. I think that we have a job of work
:34:28. > :34:36.to do in the time ahead. We're joined now by
:34:37. > :34:46.the DUP MP Sammy Wilson. Welcome to the Daily Politics.
:34:47. > :34:51.Arlene Foster is meeting her MLAs this morning. What has she been
:34:52. > :34:56.saying to them? First of all she will be commiserating with those who
:34:57. > :35:00.have lost their seats. Ten of them have lost their seats, haven't they?
:35:01. > :35:04.Six of those seats would have gone anyhow because this was an election
:35:05. > :35:09.to an assembly where there were a reduced number of MLAs. We have lost
:35:10. > :35:12.about six seats anyway. The other seats were lost because of the
:35:13. > :35:17.change in voting patterns. The second thing she will say is that we
:35:18. > :35:22.are still the largest unionist party and our boat did go up in this
:35:23. > :35:26.election. The third thing she will be saying, which is very important
:35:27. > :35:29.to make clear, just because Sinn Fein has seen an increase in the
:35:30. > :35:37.vote it does not mean they can dictate who chairs the talks. They
:35:38. > :35:41.not only won her rolled out, they want the Secretary of State ruled
:35:42. > :35:44.out. They cannot dictate who we put forward as our leader and First
:35:45. > :35:50.Minister. There is a report saying that the third of the DUP MLAs feel
:35:51. > :35:56.angry and let down by Arlene Foster, no doubt over the ill-fated heating
:35:57. > :36:01.scheme. Does that sound plausible to you? No, it does not. I am fairly
:36:02. > :36:05.close to party members. I rang a lot of them over the weekend to talk to
:36:06. > :36:09.them about the election results. That is not the response I am
:36:10. > :36:15.getting. The response I'm getting from them is, we are a party in our
:36:16. > :36:18.own right. We cannot and should not enter negotiations allowing another
:36:19. > :36:25.party to dictate who our leaders should be. If it is deadlocked... It
:36:26. > :36:29.should not happen in politics here and is unreasonable for it to happen
:36:30. > :36:33.in Northern Ireland. If you're going to keep getting the same situation
:36:34. > :36:37.election after election where you have the two biggest parties and the
:36:38. > :36:42.issue still Arlene Foster, does she not have to go? The issue of Arlene
:36:43. > :36:46.Foster is a problem for Sinn Fein and not for us. Except you might
:36:47. > :36:50.have to hand over to direct rule and not have power sharing. We entered
:36:51. > :36:57.into government with people who had been accused of murder, accused of
:36:58. > :37:00.acts of terrorism, who at midday to running terrorist organisations. We
:37:01. > :37:04.did not lay down preconditions as to who they should choose for the
:37:05. > :37:08.Deputy First Minister or ministerial team. They are not going to allow
:37:09. > :37:12.them to do that. I accept that. What about the feeling amongst your own
:37:13. > :37:17.site, your own team for that is power beginning to seep away from
:37:18. > :37:25.that? On the record, your fellow DUP member in the House of Commons has
:37:26. > :37:30.told the DUP he is not ruling out the possibility of Arlene Foster
:37:31. > :37:37.stepping down. That suggests that that could be an option. It is not
:37:38. > :37:45.an option for us. I would say that the party is behind Arlene Foster. I
:37:46. > :37:52.think Governor Robinson Bosma remarks have been misinterpreted and
:37:53. > :37:57.he has clarified that after the interpretation did become public. I
:37:58. > :38:02.also say to our opponents in Sinn Fein, yes, we want to see devolution
:38:03. > :38:06.restored and we will work towards that. We have not drawn any red
:38:07. > :38:10.lines to see devolution restored. If there is a price to be paid for
:38:11. > :38:14.devolution, and don't forget there are a lot of other red lines but
:38:15. > :38:23.down by Sinn Fein, including getting army personnel and police personnel
:38:24. > :38:27.dragged through this. Sinn Fein on a daily basis is almost bringing the
:38:28. > :38:31.red lines. The next one will be we want policemen and army men dragged
:38:32. > :38:35.through the courts. If that is the price to be paid for devolution, we
:38:36. > :38:40.will not pay and that perhaps means we will have a period of direct
:38:41. > :38:43.rule. We did ask someone from Sinn Fein to come onto the programme but
:38:44. > :38:48.they were not available. Can you really see a situation where DUP
:38:49. > :38:52.accepts the automation that Arlene Foster have to go as the price for
:38:53. > :39:01.power-sharing to be restored? That is not what they are prepared to
:39:02. > :39:09.stake publicly. -- state. They have tried to achieve this. It means give
:39:10. > :39:13.and take. There has been an election, an early election, and
:39:14. > :39:17.people can agree or disagree as to why that came about. The two largest
:39:18. > :39:22.parties remain the two largest parties. It is incumbent on them to
:39:23. > :39:26.work together. I should say that in our sister party, the Alliance
:39:27. > :39:30.party, led by Naomi Long, which did incredibly well in the elections, it
:39:31. > :39:37.is a sign of any people from either side of the divide who want there to
:39:38. > :39:40.be a moderate, consensual way forward in all of this, the message
:39:41. > :39:42.I really hear from the elections is that the politicians get on with
:39:43. > :39:46.governing Northern Ireland well and do not undo this good work. If you
:39:47. > :39:49.were in a position to form a coalition with the Labour Party or
:39:50. > :39:54.the Conservative Party and they insisted you change your leader or
:39:55. > :39:58.that they would veto who you could have in a ministerial post, you
:39:59. > :40:02.would not accept those conditions either? That is a fair point. I say
:40:03. > :40:07.that Sinn Fein and DUP needs to behave in a grown-up way, as all
:40:08. > :40:11.members. That is what I am talking about was that we're not going to
:40:12. > :40:14.get to conclusion here. People putting aside their differences as
:40:15. > :40:19.they have done so well over the last ten, 20 years, and do so again and
:40:20. > :40:22.solve this behind closed doors. Thank you very much.
:40:23. > :40:25.Our guest of the day Tim Farron has in the past compared
:40:26. > :40:27.the Liberal Democrats to cockroaches, because of their
:40:28. > :40:30.ability to survive electoral disaster in the same way cockroaches
:40:31. > :40:33.But even with some local and national by-election
:40:34. > :40:35.wins under their belt, how will a party that is ovowedly
:40:36. > :40:37.pro-EU win back Brexit-supporting voters in their former heartlands?
:40:38. > :40:57.The march is on. The Lib Dems say their fightback is well under way.
:40:58. > :41:02.It will be an uphill struggle. In electoral terms they have a mountain
:41:03. > :41:10.to climb. Lib Dems round here love a good hike. Paddy Ashdown even wrote
:41:11. > :41:14.about it. Why? Because of the view. They conquered this place more than
:41:15. > :41:19.30 years ago, by the early 2000 is boasting you could stand on the spot
:41:20. > :41:23.and see only territory controlled by the Lib Dems in Sun level of
:41:24. > :41:29.government. That is not the pitching. David Moyle 's lost his
:41:30. > :41:33.seat. The moment the party lost 49 of its 57 MPs and its in Tyre
:41:34. > :41:40.heartland in the south-west. How is it going? Great. Last year, pretty
:41:41. > :41:44.much the whole area voted to leave the EU which makes winning back the
:41:45. > :41:48.seat, located challenge for an explicitly pro-EU party. It is not
:41:49. > :41:53.the number one issue of people in terms of their daily lives. I think
:41:54. > :41:56.also there is a huge respect for Liberal Democrats and what we have
:41:57. > :41:59.delivered in coalition and that people think, we know where we stand
:42:00. > :42:04.with the Liberal Democrats. We don't know where we stand with Labour.
:42:05. > :42:07.They are not visible here. The Conservatives and Ukip seem very
:42:08. > :42:10.similar. When it comes to a general election or they will consider what
:42:11. > :42:17.you think about Europe and all only be one of a range of issues. That
:42:18. > :42:20.was not I got outside the office in Yeovil. The Lib Dems do not really
:42:21. > :42:24.like Brexit. Would you support them even know they do not really like
:42:25. > :42:31.Brexit? The Lib Dems were very pro-EU. Would that affect whether
:42:32. > :42:36.you support them or not? In what way? I don't know. Probably not.
:42:37. > :42:39.Everything is blown out of proportion at the moment that if
:42:40. > :42:42.they did not talk about it, I would probably vote for them. The Lib Dems
:42:43. > :42:48.say their strategy for regaining seats will be the same as it was
:42:49. > :42:55.decades ago, the lashes before people talked about Brexit and
:42:56. > :42:58.coalition. Since last May, the council has won 30 by-election
:42:59. > :43:02.seeds, a third of all the seats up for grabs. In recent weeks and
:43:03. > :43:05.months, the Lib Dems have made spectacular gains at local council
:43:06. > :43:10.by-elections will start in the last few years as they went into
:43:11. > :43:13.governance part of the coalition, they have lost thousands of seats.
:43:14. > :43:20.They are not starting from a strong position. They need to make a lot of
:43:21. > :43:24.games just to get back to where they were before. The next big test for
:43:25. > :43:27.the Lib Dems will be the local elections in May that they know that
:43:28. > :43:28.will give a much clearer view about whether or not Parliamentary success
:43:29. > :43:39.is on the horizon. Tim, you were out campaigning for
:43:40. > :43:45.local elections in Cornwall and that was during the Supreme Court vote.
:43:46. > :43:50.What hope does your party have of winning local elections in part of
:43:51. > :43:54.the country that went for Brexit? It is very interesting. On the issue of
:43:55. > :43:59.Brexit as a whole, what is most dangerous it seems to me politically
:44:00. > :44:04.is to be neither fish nor fowl. That is where Labour finds itself of that
:44:05. > :44:09.they're not on either side. They are suspected on both sides. We
:44:10. > :44:14.absolutely accept the legitimacy of the referendum. We're not trying to
:44:15. > :44:18.block Brexit. We are trying to save British people have the final say
:44:19. > :44:24.and the ability to reconsider if they so wish. With the by-elections
:44:25. > :44:30.we have had in recent months, we have gained seats of labour in
:44:31. > :44:40.heavily lever voting Rotherham. Does that tell you that Dubs voters are
:44:41. > :44:48.changing their minds? No. It tells you that people who voted Dubs and
:44:49. > :44:54.Remain the party that is resurgent. We will test that idea. The box pops
:44:55. > :44:58.are anecdotal. None of them will vote Liberal Democrat because of
:44:59. > :45:02.your stance on Brexit. Whilst you're wanting to be clear where you stand
:45:03. > :45:06.on that issue, how can you rebuild in those parts of the country where
:45:07. > :45:10.they rejected Brexit even though Cornwall, for example, had a lot of
:45:11. > :45:15.EU money? They are not interested in and you're making it front and
:45:16. > :45:19.centre. That is not the case. If you look at the elections which have
:45:20. > :45:25.taken place in Cornwall alone, four by-elections and four Lib Dem gains.
:45:26. > :45:33.We had 31 more councillors than we had at the time of Brexit. Just shy
:45:34. > :45:40.of 2000, I think. 1810 or 1820. How much did you have in 2010? Probably
:45:41. > :45:45.about 4000. You say it is a resurgent party but it is not, is it
:45:46. > :45:48.that are not wanted me to deprive you of those winds but you are
:45:49. > :45:54.clawing back a few seats here and there. It is not a big breakthrough.
:45:55. > :45:59.All of that is correct. I cannot affect elections which have gone by
:46:00. > :46:03.and if you look at the by-elections since the referendum, it actually is
:46:04. > :46:08.astonishing. 31 games, I think. Labour, Tories and Ukip all losing
:46:09. > :46:13.seats. It is not as if we have somebody just behind us. The success
:46:14. > :46:16.we have been having in places like Windermere and the West Country,
:46:17. > :46:21.Sunderland, Rotherham, there is no pattern except the Liberal Democrats
:46:22. > :46:26.gaining seats everywhere. Either you called your party's said in Richmond
:46:27. > :46:29.a historic victory. Do you think you have any chance of victory in
:46:30. > :46:34.constituents that were not always Lib Dem beforehand?
:46:35. > :46:40.Five parliamentary by-elections I think since the referendum, three in
:46:41. > :46:42.places that voted Leave, two in which voted Remain. The minimum we
:46:43. > :46:46.have done is doubled our vote, that's the worst we have done in any
:46:47. > :46:50.of those by-elections since the referendum. I think we are moving to
:46:51. > :46:52.a place now where, yes, Brexit is hugely important, particularly a
:46:53. > :46:57.hard Brexit that nobody voted for because it wasn't on the ballot
:46:58. > :47:01.paper, but there is a bigger issue now, because Britain is bigger than
:47:02. > :47:05.Brexit. It is about whether or not we have a proper, decent moderate
:47:06. > :47:09.economically responsible, socialist just opposition that can replace the
:47:10. > :47:15.Tory. It isn't Labour. It can be, it must be us. Is your focus too
:47:16. > :47:18.single-minded on Brexit, do you talk too much about the idea of the
:47:19. > :47:23.European Union, that it obscures every other one of your policies?
:47:24. > :47:27.It's an interesting point. I listen to that case, we talked earlier
:47:28. > :47:32.about the budget, though, all these harsh decisions the Government are
:47:33. > :47:35.taking to underfund social care, and the NHS, to underfund our schools,
:47:36. > :47:39.they're a consequence of them choosing a hard Brexit. Choosing to
:47:40. > :47:43.focus on Brexit and choosing to focus on the European Union, does it
:47:44. > :47:50.in the end just make you blind to the realities of everything else?
:47:51. > :47:57.Well, the people who are saying that the Everyone perror has no clothes
:47:58. > :48:01.Back On Top our ice -- the George Osborne himself observed in his
:48:02. > :48:03.speech in the Commons about a month ago, that the Conservative
:48:04. > :48:06.Government put the economy second. They have put the economy second.
:48:07. > :48:10.They would obviously argue differently. George Osborne argued
:48:11. > :48:15.that. Who is to say... He is not in the Government now, is he? No, he is
:48:16. > :48:20.a moderate, this is how terrible things have gone. He was on the
:48:21. > :48:24.losing side. We started off with Heidi Allen earlier, I think she is
:48:25. > :48:29.a wonderful parliamentarian. She agrees with you on a key issue. On
:48:30. > :48:34.refugees, on the economy, on schools and the health service, she's saying
:48:35. > :48:37.things about our country that were mainstream and moderate in the
:48:38. > :48:43.Conservative Party five or ten years ago. Now she looks like an extremist
:48:44. > :48:47.pause the Tory Party has been taken over in the same way Labour have.
:48:48. > :48:50.Except, of course, in polling the Conservatives are doing extremely
:48:51. > :48:54.well against Labour and against yourselves. It's damaging to the
:48:55. > :48:57.country. You could say they're more in connection with the voters than
:48:58. > :49:01.you or the Labour Party. Recent polling has shown an increase in the
:49:02. > :49:05.number of Remain voters who have now accepted Brexit and want the
:49:06. > :49:09.Government to get on with it. If Remain opinion is shifting that way,
:49:10. > :49:12.that they are to some extent accepting that this is the way
:49:13. > :49:16.forward, your plea and this talk of hard Brexit and harsh decisions is
:49:17. > :49:20.actually just not going to resonate. I think what the polls show is
:49:21. > :49:24.things are changing in different directions, they fundamentally show
:49:25. > :49:28.that a third of people want, to quote, Tony Blair, Brexit at any
:49:29. > :49:32.cost, I accept that, a third of people are utterly unwilling to
:49:33. > :49:35.accept, if you like, the outcome of the referendum and a third of people
:49:36. > :49:38.think however they voted in the referendum, you know what, it all
:49:39. > :49:41.depends on the deal. That's all we are saying. We are saying the
:49:42. > :49:44.British people should have the final say t shouldn't be a politicians'
:49:45. > :49:47.stitch-up. Now, Big Ben, which as all
:49:48. > :49:49.Daily Politics viewers know is the name of the famous bell
:49:50. > :49:52.at Westminster, not the tower, will soon fall silent for several
:49:53. > :49:55.months to allow repairs But before the clock is stopped
:49:56. > :49:58.researchers have been using lasers to measure the bell in detail
:49:59. > :50:01.and find out more about exactly how Let's have a look at
:50:02. > :50:06.a BBC Four documentary That was a clip from Sound Waves:
:50:07. > :50:41.The Symphony of physics, which you can watch in full
:50:42. > :50:43.on the BBC iPlayer. And we're joined now by one
:50:44. > :50:46.of the people behind the project, Amy Stubbs,
:50:47. > :51:00.from Leicester University, Welcome to the Daily Politics. What
:51:01. > :51:10.was it that the team were measuring? We were measuring the wave that the
:51:11. > :51:13.bell was vibrating, we used a technique called laser, it tells us
:51:14. > :51:21.how fast the surface is moving. How long does it take to set that sort
:51:22. > :51:25.of thing up? Typically, if we were working in our laboratory it's a
:51:26. > :51:31.simple operation. To take our equipment up the tower to the top of
:51:32. > :51:38.Elizabeth To youer to Big Ben makes a more of a logistical challenge.
:51:39. > :51:42.Tell us about it. Well, we have got for a measurement like that we have
:51:43. > :51:49.about 200 kilogrammes worth of equipment that we use. Like a good
:51:50. > :51:53.outside broadcast and we had to split that down into manageable
:51:54. > :51:58.carries for six people carrying about 30 kilogrammes each to go up
:51:59. > :52:04.the 334 steps up to the top of the to you ir. A logistical challenge.
:52:05. > :52:10.Does it explain why it makes a pleasant sound? It helps us by
:52:11. > :52:14.measuring Big Ben like that, by looking at it in a level of detail
:52:15. > :52:18.that nobody's done before. It allows us to see what those frequencies are
:52:19. > :52:26.and you saw the animations just then in the clip that you played. Each
:52:27. > :52:31.one of those frequencies makes up the chord that together becomes that
:52:32. > :52:36.iconic sound that is Big Ben. In the papers they're reporting the
:52:37. > :52:43.repairs might change the sound. Do you think it will go from a ping to
:52:44. > :52:49.a bong? The thing with the bell is that it is the sound it makes is
:52:50. > :52:53.governed by its size and shape and the material that it's in it. When
:52:54. > :53:00.you have a bell the size of Big Ben you have 13. 5 tonnes of metal
:53:01. > :53:06.that's reasonant and it wants to vibrate. Anything that they do, as
:53:07. > :53:10.part of the renovations, is going to be focussed on preserving Big Ben
:53:11. > :53:17.for the nation, for the years to come. If they clean it, if they take
:53:18. > :53:20.some soot off it it's going to be impersetible compared with the
:53:21. > :53:24.overall weight and size and shape of the bell itself. Overall, with a
:53:25. > :53:27.good engineering judgment it's not going to make any noticeable
:53:28. > :53:31.difference for the generations to come. I think you would be hard
:53:32. > :53:35.pushed to tell there is a difference in the sound. You are not concerned
:53:36. > :53:38.are you? Maybe the Government should be allowing about an expert on to
:53:39. > :53:42.the grounds of the Houses of parliament. You can't get away from
:53:43. > :53:46.Brexit! Did you know the bell had a crack in it since 1859? I did not
:53:47. > :53:50.and feel bad about that. Wasn't my fault! Thank you very much.
:53:51. > :53:52.Now, where is the next big Brexit battleground?
:53:53. > :53:54.Could it be the Commons or the Lords, again?
:53:55. > :53:59.Or could it be a battle of the mind and body
:54:00. > :54:03.as one Ukip MEP takes on a Liberal Democrat
:54:04. > :54:10.You might not have heard of chessboxing, I certainly hadn't,
:54:11. > :54:12.but it's a sport that sees competitors fighting
:54:13. > :54:16.alternate rounds in the ring and then on the chessboard.
:54:17. > :54:19.Next month sees the Ukip MEP Jonathan Arnott take on a Lib Dem
:54:20. > :54:22.activist in what's being billed as something of a
:54:23. > :54:26.It could be a much quicker way of sorting out differences over
:54:27. > :54:32.Brexit than an all-night debate in the House of Lords.
:54:33. > :54:36.We're joined now by Jonathan Arnott, who, as you can see,
:54:37. > :54:42.isn't prepared to take even a moment away from his training.
:54:43. > :54:49.He is giving it his all there. I like the duck there. I will have to
:54:50. > :54:52.break into your focus and concentration. Take a seat. Thank
:54:53. > :54:56.you for demonstrating the boxing bit of the chess. I presume you have to
:54:57. > :54:59.take those off to do the chess bit? I do, yes, otherwise the pieces go
:55:00. > :55:05.all over the place. I won't be boxes in a suit. You won't be, thank you
:55:06. > :55:09.for wear ago suit. Tell us what is chessboxing, tell us more about it?
:55:10. > :55:13.It's what it sounds like, you play speed chess for three minutes. A
:55:14. > :55:19.bell rings, you put gloves on. You box for two minutes. Rounds of chess
:55:20. > :55:22.and boxing and then you win the game either by checkmate or knockout. Now
:55:23. > :55:25.your Lib Dem activist opponent, we asked him to come on but I don't
:55:26. > :55:29.think he was available. Of course we have gone one better because we have
:55:30. > :55:36.the Lib Dem leader. We are not going to do the boxing bit, you will be
:55:37. > :55:44.pleased to know. Are you a good boxer? No, T... Do you think you can
:55:45. > :55:48.do the chess and answer the questions? Not well. No one's going
:55:49. > :55:53.to judge you on that. How good are you at chess, Jonathan? Reasonably
:55:54. > :55:57.good. Be honest. I was Yorkshire captain for a couple of years. I
:55:58. > :56:01.played in some international competitions. Fairly decent. You
:56:02. > :56:08.are. Better than your boxing, you think? Can't be much worse, can it?
:56:09. > :56:13.What has instructed you in politics, chess or boxing? I think politics is
:56:14. > :56:19.always a little bit of both. You are doing quite quickly. When was the
:56:20. > :56:26.last time you played chess, Tim? Years ago. That is checkmate. Is
:56:27. > :56:32.this about Brexit? Look at that. You are checkmate. Right, you have to
:56:33. > :56:37.start again. How quickly did you do that? To demonstrate that I have a
:56:38. > :56:41.done for, there you go. I am good at pop quizzes. Boxing and chess
:56:42. > :56:45.reminds me of Alan Partridge, monkey tennis. I thought it was about the
:56:46. > :56:54.mind and body. Tell us why you are doing it. I am doing it to raise
:56:55. > :57:00.money for charity, a wonderful charity Act for SMA, a colleague
:57:01. > :57:04.lost their baby daughter in October, and the charity that helped them was
:57:05. > :57:08.absolutely fantastic so I am trying to raise money for charity and I
:57:09. > :57:14.thought I could do all sorts to raise money but doing this is not
:57:15. > :57:19.something that anyone would ever expect for a politician, it's not
:57:20. > :57:22.something anyone would expect of me. Hopefully people donate a little bit
:57:23. > :57:26.more because of it. What about the fact that it is all about Brexit,
:57:27. > :57:32.which will please Tim Farron no doubt since he loves to talk about
:57:33. > :57:35.it, is it a Brexit grudge match? I am up against a Liberal Democrat,
:57:36. > :57:39.far be it from me to say it would be nice to have the opportunity to
:57:40. > :57:45.punch a Lib Dem in the face, I would never... Ukip got into problems with
:57:46. > :57:49.some of those things in the past! We are keeping this in the boxing ring.
:57:50. > :57:52.What about you, would you like to see differences over Brexit and
:57:53. > :57:58.leaving the European Union fought out in the boxing ring? I prefer
:57:59. > :58:03.monkey tennis. What does it say about your prowess at chess? Not
:58:04. > :58:07.very good. Was I beaten in four moves? It was not many. This is well
:58:08. > :58:12.set up for the match. I wasn't paying attention. I hope your Lib
:58:13. > :58:16.Dem colleague is better at it. Time to find out the answer to the quiz.
:58:17. > :58:19.The question was about a plan by Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell
:58:20. > :58:23.He's said to be planning to launch an offensive to win over colleagues
:58:24. > :58:41.Apart from Labour being genuinely offensive at the moment, it's a tea
:58:42. > :58:46.offensive isn't it. Sounds more gentle than boxing in the ring. I
:58:47. > :58:48.have never been to a PPL meeting but I am told it's nothing compared to a
:58:49. > :58:51.boxing match. The news is starting
:58:52. > :58:58.over on BBC One now.