:00:00. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Theresa May backs her Chancellor on his National Insurance hike
:00:45. > :00:48.for the self-employed but delays legislation for the change
:00:49. > :00:54.So has the PM managed to kill off a backbench rebellion?
:00:55. > :00:57.European leaders continue their summit in Brussels without Mrs May.
:00:58. > :01:01.We'll get the latest from the meeting of the EU27
:01:02. > :01:06.as they discuss the European Union's future post-Brexit.
:01:07. > :01:11.MPs and peers should move out of parliament for six years to allow
:01:12. > :01:15.urgent repairs costing ?4 billion to take place, that's the view
:01:16. > :01:21.We'll hear from its chair, Meg Hillier, and an
:01:22. > :01:28.And, tax returns, lordly sackings and budget numbers -
:01:29. > :01:35.we look back on the political week, in just 60 seconds.
:01:36. > :01:38.All that in the next hour and with us for the duration
:01:39. > :01:43.Jenni Russell who writes for the Times, and Iain Martin,
:01:44. > :01:58.So, just 24 hours after the budget, Theresa May signals the possibility
:01:59. > :02:04.of a re-think on Philip Hammond's national insurance increase.
:02:05. > :02:09.We'll examine the options open to the Chancellor in just a moment.
:02:10. > :02:15.First though, David Cameron finds himself in the thick of it
:02:16. > :02:19.with comments he seems to have made while chatting to the Defence
:02:20. > :02:27.Eagle-eyed ITV correspondent Chris Ship spotted the former
:02:28. > :02:32.Prime Minister talking to Mr Fallon at yesterday's memorial service
:02:33. > :02:35.for members of the armed services in Horse Guards Parade in central
:02:36. > :02:40.Amateur lip-readers suggested Mr Cameron may have been commenting
:02:41. > :02:44.on Philip Hammond's decision to break the Conservative's
:02:45. > :02:49.manifesto commitment not to raise national insurance.
:02:50. > :02:54.So can we know for certain what David Cameron was saying?
:02:55. > :02:57.We're joined now by Tina Lannin, a forensic lip
:02:58. > :03:09.And you've brought Bailey along as well? I have. Fantastic. I should
:03:10. > :03:14.have brought iris Bailey along and they could have met. Anyway, let me
:03:15. > :03:24.just ask you this - how accurate, before we look at it, is
:03:25. > :03:28.lip-reading? It really does depend on the ability of the lip reader to
:03:29. > :03:35.pick up what he's saying, the fluency of the language and also on
:03:36. > :03:40.the quality of the TV clip, whether it's good quality and whether the
:03:41. > :03:43.camera goes away from the speaker, whether the camera is shaky, blurry,
:03:44. > :03:47.all that kind of thing. That would add to the difficulty if it was. But
:03:48. > :03:53.if the quality is reasonably good, and we'll see it in a minute, a
:03:54. > :03:57.professional lip-reader like yourself, we'd have a fair idea of
:03:58. > :04:01.what was being said? Yes, I would have a fairly good idea. Somebody
:04:02. > :04:06.who had been lip-reading everybody around them every day of their life,
:04:07. > :04:10.you'll have a fairly good idea and I rely on lip-reading and I'm
:04:11. > :04:15.lip-reading you now, I'm totally deaf but I can understand what you
:04:16. > :04:19.are saying because I'm lip-reading. My lip-reading skills are quite
:04:20. > :04:24.accurate. I would certainly say that. We are going to get your
:04:25. > :04:29.professional opinion in a minute. We have had a number of amateur
:04:30. > :04:33.opinions already. Can anyone lip read? I would have thought it's
:04:34. > :04:39.really a skill, is it not? It is a skill, it's an art and everybody can
:04:40. > :04:42.lip read to some extent but it's a question of how good you are and
:04:43. > :04:46.that only comes with practise. I'm told we have got the best with
:04:47. > :04:50.you, so let's have a look at the clip again and then we'll get your
:04:51. > :05:02.expert opinion. Let's see what David Cameron's saying.
:05:03. > :05:09.Tina, I would say that was pretty good quality there, not blurry, the
:05:10. > :05:14.camera's not shaking, it's pretty good broadcast TV qualities,
:05:15. > :05:24.slightly in the distance. So, in your professional opinion, what did
:05:25. > :05:29.Mr Cameron say? I interpret him by saying breaking the manifesto
:05:30. > :05:32.promise, how stupid can you get. So he did say, breaking a manifesto
:05:33. > :05:41.promise, how stupid can you get? Yes. Right. Well, we thank you. Give
:05:42. > :05:47.us your reaction to this professional authentication. First
:05:48. > :05:50.of all, I'm amazed because I would look at that and wouldn't have a
:05:51. > :05:53.clue, I would say it was just complaining about the weather. It
:05:54. > :05:58.was a silly promise in the first place and it was the one that he
:05:59. > :06:01.made. He made it, not thinking that his Government would ever have to
:06:02. > :06:04.stand by it because he didn't expect to win the last majority with an
:06:05. > :06:07.election and therefore be responsible for the policies that
:06:08. > :06:14.followed. But they didn't tell us that at the time. For voters, a
:06:15. > :06:20.promise is a promise. But it's a bit much for him to be the person
:06:21. > :06:24.criticising. He thought he'd be part of a coalition. Theresa May is bound
:06:25. > :06:28.by a promise that she didn't make. Nevertheless, I do think it was very
:06:29. > :06:33.foolish of her Government to think that you could get away. Without the
:06:34. > :06:36.big row that we have seen? But not eeven acknowledge that you are
:06:37. > :06:40.breaking it, pretend it wasn't in the pledge and to look as though you
:06:41. > :06:43.are splitting hairs. That's what didn't work, that's what made people
:06:44. > :06:48.feel that they were dancing on the head of a pin. There's something
:06:49. > :06:52.magnificent about that clip, it still looks as though Cameron is in
:06:53. > :06:55.charge. He's summoning over the Defence Secretary saying, now look
:06:56. > :07:02.here Fallon, what's all this rubbish. That's amusing. I think
:07:03. > :07:07.Cameron's right to be angry. I think it's still a bit of a puzzle as to
:07:08. > :07:13.what on earth the Government thought they were doing. I mean, you can
:07:14. > :07:20.take the view that it's a stupid pledge, I understand that, and you
:07:21. > :07:25.can take a wider view to rule out any income tax rises and national
:07:26. > :07:31.insurance to freeze fuel duty. It seems in perpetuity, you are really
:07:32. > :07:37.eroding the tax base. The point on trust is, they may have not once,
:07:38. > :07:45.not twice, not thrice, but four times in this manifesto... And they
:07:46. > :07:49.legislated on it. They excluded the self-employed from the legislation
:07:50. > :07:53.but it looked as if they were putting it absolutely in a solid
:07:54. > :07:59.form and it couldn't be taken away. The difficulty for this, for the
:08:00. > :08:04.Government, is that this is a perfect storm really, in the fact
:08:05. > :08:08.that it's not one group, the self-employed, but the
:08:09. > :08:11.self-employed, the upper end who're paid via dividends, that runs from
:08:12. > :08:17.white van driver and plumbers all the way through the economy at every
:08:18. > :08:22.salary level so it's extraordinary that a Tory Chancellor didn't see
:08:23. > :08:27.this. Are we being fair to Mr Cameron in the sense that we are
:08:28. > :08:30.reading his lips from a distance, he's having a private conversation,
:08:31. > :08:34.the cameras are on him. If you are in the public eye, we have to just
:08:35. > :08:39.accept this, do we? You have to accept it. I believe Tina, but the
:08:40. > :08:42.wider issue here is one about trust. In an era of alternative facts,
:08:43. > :08:46.politicians have got to be trustworthy and they have to learn
:08:47. > :08:50.that if you say something to the public, you can't wriggle out of it.
:08:51. > :08:54.You have to be frank about why you are breaking a promise or you just
:08:55. > :08:57.build cynicism. We showed you the clip again there. Tina, you have
:08:58. > :09:03.settled one of the controversies of the week, we are very grateful to
:09:04. > :09:08.you and Bailey for coming in. Bye-bye, see you soon, Bailey.
:09:09. > :09:15.This row over the Government's plans to raise the rate of Class 4
:09:16. > :09:17.National Insurance contributions is now in its third day.
:09:18. > :09:20.Let's remind ourselves what's been happening.
:09:21. > :09:23.In his budget speech on Wednesday, Philip Hammond said the changes
:09:24. > :09:26.are necessary because the current lower rate of National Insurance
:09:27. > :09:32."undermines the fairness of the tax system".
:09:33. > :09:36.But that left Tory MPs queuing up to criticise the government's plans.
:09:37. > :09:40.Conservative MP Stephen McPartland said on this programme yesterday.
:09:41. > :09:43."We need to get a U-turn and we need one quickly."
:09:44. > :09:48.Guto Bebb, a minister in the Wales Office
:09:49. > :10:00.But Matthew Taylor, the former adviser to Tony Blair,
:10:01. > :10:09.Mr Taylor is currently carrying out a government review looking at how
:10:10. > :10:12.the state treats self-employed people and other issues.
:10:13. > :10:16.Theresa May signalled last night that she and the Government
:10:17. > :10:29.But Labour weren't pleased with that.
:10:30. > :10:34.The Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said Theresa May should.
:10:35. > :10:37.Let's have a look at what Theresa May said last night,
:10:38. > :10:46.speaking at a press conference in Brussels.
:10:47. > :10:54.And I think it is fair to close the gap in contributions between two
:10:55. > :10:56.people doing the same work and using the same public
:10:57. > :10:58.services to make the same contribution to wider society.
:10:59. > :11:01.And then I think the final question you ask is is it progressive?
:11:02. > :11:04.And the changes that will be built through on NICS
:11:05. > :11:07.to Class 2 and Class 4, taken together, under those,
:11:08. > :11:10.the lowest paid self-employed workers will be better off and half
:11:11. > :11:19.the revenues raised will be paid by the best off, by the wealthiest.
:11:20. > :11:22.We've been joined from Gloucester by the Conservative MP Neil Carmichael.
:11:23. > :11:25.And in the studio by the director of the Resolution
:11:26. > :11:36.Michael, the Prime Minister says she's in listening mode, so what do
:11:37. > :11:40.you want to tell her? I first of all think it's absolutely
:11:41. > :11:44.necessary for us to raise as much tax as we possibly can. This is the
:11:45. > :11:49.time of Brexit and we are going to be needing extra money in the
:11:50. > :11:55.long-term. The second point is, we've got to, however, make sure our
:11:56. > :11:59.entrepreneurs, our consultants, those people who're basically
:12:00. > :12:02.self-employed feel that the risks they take are ones which the
:12:03. > :12:06.Government are going to acknowledge. I think that's part of a tailoring
:12:07. > :12:10.review. What do you want to tell her on this - that's very general, I
:12:11. > :12:15.asked you a specific question. Well, what I would say is that I think the
:12:16. > :12:18.delay towards the autumn is wise. I think that tapering would be
:12:19. > :12:23.appropriate because I think that there will be a group, as far as I
:12:24. > :12:27.can see from the figures, that are going to be effectively asked to pay
:12:28. > :12:34.a sizeable chunk. Which group would that be? That would be the high
:12:35. > :12:38.earner chunk. The higher earnings who are employed are paying high
:12:39. > :12:43.national insurance at the moment, so if you look at a management
:12:44. > :12:49.consultant on ?52,000 a year, they would pay another ?600 or so. Yes.
:12:50. > :12:56.On national insurance contributions a year, they are on over ?50,000 a
:12:57. > :12:59.wouldn't be paying anything like the national insurance that an employee
:13:00. > :13:03.would pay, particularly when you add in the employee contribution? But
:13:04. > :13:06.you have to balance what a self-employed person isn't getting
:13:07. > :13:10.through the benefits system or risk to his position or her position if
:13:11. > :13:13.things went wrong. You've also got to factor in things like business
:13:14. > :13:19.rates which might actually be a problem too. Everybody is paying
:13:20. > :13:23.business rates. But the biggest amount of money in this country goes
:13:24. > :13:27.on the Health Service and social care and welfare, if you are
:13:28. > :13:31.self-employed, last time I looked you were entitled to the NHS. Yes.
:13:32. > :13:36.And to social care, such as there is in this country these days, so why
:13:37. > :13:39.shouldn't you pay a bit more? And I thought you were against them paying
:13:40. > :13:44.more, which side of the fence are you on? I'm on the side of the fence
:13:45. > :13:48.which in the long run we have to raise more revenue... You've said
:13:49. > :13:54.all that, but what do you want us to do on NICS? What do you want the got
:13:55. > :13:57.to do, what should the country be doing on national insurance What I
:13:58. > :14:02.want the Government to be doing on national insurance is delaying a
:14:03. > :14:05.decision which I think it's effectively said because we are not
:14:06. > :14:09.voting on this until the awe Tim, quite rightly, between thousand and
:14:10. > :14:14.then, we need a rebust look at the figures so that we can actually say
:14:15. > :14:18.to those people affected that this is not going to be as bad as is
:14:19. > :14:24.currently predicted -- autumn. So in other words there should be some
:14:25. > :14:29.changes made in the next six months. But unless it's some kind of
:14:30. > :14:33.compromise and, if your words, if it's not as bad as was outlined on
:14:34. > :14:36.Wednesday, whatever compromise, if national insurance is to rise, it's
:14:37. > :14:39.a breach of your manifesto commitment. It may not be as bad a
:14:40. > :14:42.breach but it's still a breach? Well, you know, we said in the
:14:43. > :14:47.manifesto we are going to stay in the single market and that's plainly
:14:48. > :14:50.not going to happen, so... But you thought you were going to win the
:14:51. > :14:54.referendum to remain too so things did change there. What's changed to
:14:55. > :14:58.force national insurance contributions up? The politics have
:14:59. > :15:01.changed, the economics have changed. We voted to leave the European
:15:02. > :15:04.Union. That's going to have an impact on our membership of the
:15:05. > :15:09.single market by simply saying we are not going to be in it. That's
:15:10. > :15:12.clearly on the cards. So that is something which is at variance with
:15:13. > :15:15.the manifesto and this too is add variance with the manifesto.
:15:16. > :15:22.Actually for the same reason, that we are needing to find more money to
:15:23. > :15:27.prepare a cushion for whilst we prepare to leave the European Union.
:15:28. > :15:30.They're linked. Stick with us, you will get a chance to sort out your
:15:31. > :16:28.ear piece too. We are spending ?400 million gives
:16:29. > :16:32.the self-employed a tax cut, abolishing class 2, the flat rate,
:16:33. > :16:38.?150 a year that all self-employed pay. That is why the losers are only
:16:39. > :16:41.over ?16,000. It's not about raising money. This is about saying we have
:16:42. > :16:47.a fundamental problem in the tax system and we need to keep up with
:16:48. > :16:52.the world of world which is working -- world of work. The key thing you
:16:53. > :16:55.you were talking about, about the people being entitled to use the NHS
:16:56. > :17:00.and the social care, the real issue is the state pension. Historically,
:17:01. > :17:03.the reason why people pay lower national insurance, the
:17:04. > :17:06.self-employed, is they used to get a better pension. That has been ended.
:17:07. > :17:09.They get the same pension as employees and, as a result, the gap
:17:10. > :17:16.on the national insurance needs to be closed.
:17:17. > :17:21.Right, but it may be true, as your foundation, I think it's been said
:17:22. > :17:25.too, that if you are earning less than ?16,000, you are unaffected by
:17:26. > :17:33.this. Some people will be better off. The real increase, the example
:17:34. > :17:37.of the management consultant that I gave, they're in the top 50% of
:17:38. > :17:45.households, but there are a group of people who'll be paying more,
:17:46. > :17:49.earning between ?16,000 and ?25-?26,000 a year, but they are the
:17:50. > :17:52.just about managing classes, so why put any extra burden on them since
:17:53. > :17:56.your own foundation's said the living standards are now going to be
:17:57. > :18:01.squeezed even without this. Why put a further burden on them no matter
:18:02. > :18:05.how small? That is a good point, Andrew. What you are getting at
:18:06. > :18:13.there... What is the answer? I'll come to it. Policies are difficult.
:18:14. > :18:18.They have pros and cons, you have probably already done them. If tax
:18:19. > :18:21.rises in particular, unless you are a saint, you don't want to
:18:22. > :18:26.particularly have any less money in your pocket, so would I ideally like
:18:27. > :18:30.a policy that somehow had a fairer tax system between self-employed and
:18:31. > :18:33.employees and didn't lead to any extra money being taken on the
:18:34. > :18:37.earnings and salaries you are talking about - yes. Is that
:18:38. > :18:41.possible in the real world and is it responsible for people who want a
:18:42. > :18:46.better country to ignore those ambiguities - no. For three days,
:18:47. > :18:50.your party, your government, has had a complete kicking, even in the Tory
:18:51. > :18:57.press, is it worth it for another ?200 million a year. That's not even
:18:58. > :19:02.a rounding error? I think it's worth having the debates. I said is it
:19:03. > :19:05.worth it for ?200 million. The Chancellor will drop that down the
:19:06. > :19:09.back of the sofa on a Friday afternoon. Well, you say that to a
:19:10. > :19:13.school struggling to pay an extra teacher and you would think, well
:19:14. > :19:18.?200 million will go some distance. It would help make sure that the
:19:19. > :19:22.national funding formula had a better floor than currently is
:19:23. > :19:26.projected and so on. So ?200 million is... It's worth all this political
:19:27. > :19:30.pain then? Well, I think what we have to do is take the whole budget
:19:31. > :19:36.together, you know. This is more than just this issue about national
:19:37. > :19:38.insurance contributions. It's about actually rebalancing the economy
:19:39. > :19:43.towards being more productive and so on, so that does matter. The key
:19:44. > :19:46.point about the fairness angle is still a relevant one. We have to
:19:47. > :19:49.bear in mind that the employment patterns are changing and the
:19:50. > :19:53.taxation system really has to reflect that. But you are a Tory,
:19:54. > :19:56.you are meant to be in favour of people being self-employed and
:19:57. > :20:00.entrepreneurial and not dependent on the state. Why is it the policy of a
:20:01. > :20:06.Tory Government to say, you are going to have to pay more tax in the
:20:07. > :20:11.form of national insurance, but in return the state will give you more
:20:12. > :20:17.benefits. Isn't that what the Labour Party is meant to believe? Well,
:20:18. > :20:21.those benefits are around sort of conditions if you fell out of your
:20:22. > :20:25.position as a self-employed person. I think that's fair to recognise
:20:26. > :20:28.that there are risks there. You've actually already answered your own
:20:29. > :20:33.question because you... That doesn't happen very often... The more
:20:34. > :20:36.youern, the more you'll pay, because down at the ?16,000 level you
:20:37. > :20:40.wouldn't pay at all and you would benefit. One more thing because you
:20:41. > :20:44.are struggling with that ear piece, and I'm grateful for you sticking
:20:45. > :20:49.with it, but let me ask you one more thing. I'm still not clear what you
:20:50. > :20:53.want to Government to do compared to what the Chancellor announced and we
:20:54. > :20:57.are going to have until autumn to decide that, but do you get the
:20:58. > :21:00.sense there is compromise in the air that what the Chancellor announced
:21:01. > :21:06.will not in the end be what is legislated for in the autumn? I
:21:07. > :21:11.think there's scope for compromise, that's helpful. That's what we need.
:21:12. > :21:14.This is about tapering and levels and we have some discussions, six
:21:15. > :21:18.months in order to have them, the argument is on the table. The
:21:19. > :21:21.principle is one we'll salute. The Prime Minister said that last night.
:21:22. > :21:24.It's just a question of how we do it. I think that is what the
:21:25. > :21:29.discussions will be around during the course of the period up to and
:21:30. > :21:34.including the final vote when this is decided in the autumn. Let me try
:21:35. > :21:38.one more time with you - what would you like the Government to do to
:21:39. > :21:45.make this acceptable to you and some of your colleagues? Make absolutely
:21:46. > :21:49.clear what self-employed people will be benefitting from if changes are
:21:50. > :21:52.made in the Taylor review and doeth we don't know exactly what they are
:21:53. > :21:55.but that's an important aspect. This is two sides of the same coin. It's
:21:56. > :21:59.paying for something but knowing what you are going to get in return
:22:00. > :22:04.so there needs be clarity there and there isn't any clarity really at
:22:05. > :22:07.the moment. Also this issue about tapering, that's an important word
:22:08. > :22:12.in this conversation. I don't know what it means though in this
:22:13. > :22:16.context. What it means is that we'll probably have a situation where the
:22:17. > :22:21.introduction of this scheme was more gradual and less... But it is
:22:22. > :22:26.tapered at the moment, it's only 1% starting next year then another 1%
:22:27. > :22:30.starting the year after that, it's a gradual introduction. That's why I'm
:22:31. > :22:36.everysizing there should be more discussion about that. More
:22:37. > :22:43.tapering? Yes, I think so. -- emphasising. Anyway, I'm sure we'll
:22:44. > :22:47.discuss more about this as the summer comes about. I can hardly
:22:48. > :22:51.wait! Plenty to talk about. Thank you very much! Thank you and thank
:22:52. > :23:01.you again for dealing with that pesky ear piece that you've got
:23:02. > :23:08.there! What do you think of this? I think Torsten Bell should be
:23:09. > :23:12.advising more on this. Most people think they work is unpredictable and
:23:13. > :23:17.they don't get holiday pay or sick pay. There seems to be radical
:23:18. > :23:23.disadvantages and it seems to be radically unfair to say your life is
:23:24. > :23:25.the same as a working person. So his argument about saying you are
:23:26. > :23:29.getting an equal state pension now and you never had that before is a
:23:30. > :23:33.much more powerful argument than anything else that has been put
:23:34. > :23:37.forward? Iain We should acknowledge there is a bias on the part of
:23:38. > :23:43.newspaper columnists and freelance journalists. Disproportionate... Who
:23:44. > :23:59.is going to speak up for the self-employed? To the barricades.
:24:00. > :24:04.There was an interesting thing the Chancellor said in the budget about
:24:05. > :24:09.how technology is reshaping the economy and he says he's going to
:24:10. > :24:15.come back to it. This would have been almost fine if he'd said let's
:24:16. > :24:18.have a proper review of how employment is structured, headed not
:24:19. > :24:22.by someone like Matthew Taylor with instincts always to raise taxation.
:24:23. > :24:29.You never know... I don't think that's fair. The answer, heaven
:24:30. > :24:33.know, mite come back to reduce the national insurance of the employed
:24:34. > :24:41.and maybe spend a little less and borrow a little less. Balancing the
:24:42. > :24:46.budget into the 2030s. Yes. It's already been kicked sideways, so why
:24:47. > :24:54.not? ! It's become very complicated. Life is complicated. But our tax
:24:55. > :25:00.system is complicated. The tax guide is taller than you now and you are
:25:01. > :25:04.quite tall. Why do we have national insurance, it's just income tax by
:25:05. > :25:08.another name and yet there's no talk any more among policy-makers at the
:25:09. > :25:12.top level of just rolling the two together and simplifying things It's
:25:13. > :25:17.not exactly the same in one big way. You pay income tax but you don't pay
:25:18. > :25:23.national insurance. You look like you're... You are wasted in the
:25:24. > :25:27.resolution foundation, you should be in the diplomatic corps! But you
:25:28. > :25:31.would be paying a lot more money. I understand that. That may be the
:25:32. > :25:35.case, but you would have to then live with some consequences. The
:25:36. > :25:39.over 65s in real terms are doing much better than people in their 20s
:25:40. > :25:42.and 30s at the moment. It's an unnecessary complication and you
:25:43. > :25:47.could come up with a formula which rolled the two together. It's not a
:25:48. > :25:50.hypothecating tax any more. George Osborne asked the office for similar
:25:51. > :25:52.police officercation, which was designed for reasons you are
:25:53. > :25:56.highlighting. They did a report, they say it could be done,
:25:57. > :26:01.complicated ways of doing it and the Government said no, thank you, have
:26:02. > :26:08.you met the over 60s. So we have given them a lot, a triple lot as
:26:09. > :26:12.well -- a triple lock. We can help deal with the self-employed. Can I
:26:13. > :26:16.ask a question, do you have any idea how much you would raise if you
:26:17. > :26:24.taxed people like Andrew, the over 65s. Andrew would raise a lot of
:26:25. > :26:29.money! That's very easy to find out. Would it be more than ?200 million
:26:30. > :26:34.do you think? Oh, billions! There we are, we have solved the problem. One
:26:35. > :26:38.billion from Andrew and billions from the rest of the population.
:26:39. > :26:42.Thank you for coming in and we'll see you again around 2026 when
:26:43. > :26:47.you'll probably be getting your pension. Look forward to it. And the
:26:48. > :26:51.taxes will have gone up. I'll be speaking to Matthew Taylor on the
:26:52. > :26:56.Sunday Politics this Sunday on this very issue and we'll look at some of
:26:57. > :27:03.the principles behind this problem of how do you tax the self-employed,
:27:04. > :27:08.indeed, how do you stop the tax base from eroding with the decade coming
:27:09. > :27:10.up when the demands on health, social care and other things are
:27:11. > :27:12.going to be huge. Today EU leaders are meeting
:27:13. > :27:17.in Brussels in the new Europa But the question is what has that
:27:18. > :27:21.building been nicknamed? At the end of the show,
:27:22. > :27:33.Iain and Jenni will give So, the EU summit in Brussels
:27:34. > :27:41.continues today without Theresa May. The remaining 27 leaders are due
:27:42. > :27:46.to discuss the future development Our correspondent Ben Wright joins
:27:47. > :28:06.us now from Brussels. Ben, Mrs May's not there, I assume
:28:07. > :28:10.Brexit is not high up the discussions at the moment because
:28:11. > :28:16.Article 50 hasn't been triggered. So what are they talking about? Well, I
:28:17. > :28:20.think there's party planning going on this morning, the 27 sitting
:28:21. > :28:24.around working out how this big event they're planning for the 25th
:28:25. > :28:30.in Italy is going to work which they want to look like a huge show of
:28:31. > :28:33.unity by the European Union to mark 60 years since the Treaty of Rome
:28:34. > :28:38.was signed. So they'll be talking about that today. They'll be talking
:28:39. > :28:41.about recent plans put forward by the European Commission President
:28:42. > :28:45.Jean-Claude Juncker for the ten year plan. Various option force the
:28:46. > :28:49.future direction of the EU. And I imagine too, oh to be in that room,
:28:50. > :28:53.I mean they'll probably be talking about Brexit. They are not talking
:28:54. > :28:57.about negotiations in public, they won't do that until Article 50 is
:28:58. > :29:03.triggered, but once Theresa May does that and writes her letter to the
:29:04. > :29:06.European Council, then the EU 27 then have to work out their
:29:07. > :29:09.negotiating mandate. How they are going to approach these talks and
:29:10. > :29:12.those talks have been going on behind-the-scenes and I'm sure they
:29:13. > :29:20.are touching on it this morning. Is there a sense of you covering a
:29:21. > :29:25.Marie Antoinette party there, as you talk about that and Geert wilders is
:29:26. > :29:30.against the EU on the hard right, marine Le Pen is doing far better
:29:31. > :29:34.than her father, will almost certainly be in the next round of
:29:35. > :29:38.the French elections and four out of five big parties are against the
:29:39. > :29:42.euro. Do they ever think about any of that?
:29:43. > :29:50.Thoreau Trump into the mix as well. The great American ally of the EU,
:29:51. > :29:53.the USA, has decidedly gone wobbly since Donald Trump entered the White
:29:54. > :30:01.House. Their access then shall challenges wherever you look. --
:30:02. > :30:04.existential challenges. I think they got to get the tone of the party
:30:05. > :30:07.quite right which is why they don't want Theresa May to trigger Brexit
:30:08. > :30:12.in the immediate days before all the media days after this big event in
:30:13. > :30:18.Rome and that has been made quite clear. To the British government.
:30:19. > :30:21.Look, they know that this is a very difficult time for the European
:30:22. > :30:27.Union. Is no getting around that at all. And that will colour their
:30:28. > :30:30.approach to Brexit. People around here, you hear them saying it's all
:30:31. > :30:33.very well for the UK to keep saying they would get the best deal for
:30:34. > :30:36.Britain but people here are saying they would get the best deal for the
:30:37. > :30:41.European Union and one which acts as a warning to others not to leave the
:30:42. > :30:43.club. In the absence of specific about what the European Union are
:30:44. > :30:49.going to put on the table, that's what you have to go on. But we don't
:30:50. > :30:54.know if there is agreement among the 27 about what the best deal for the
:30:55. > :30:58.remaining European Union would mean. We don't know if the polls agree
:30:59. > :31:03.with the French, in fact, we're pretty sure they don't. We don't
:31:04. > :31:11.know what Emmanuel Macron's idea would be, or Mr Schultz, if he was
:31:12. > :31:18.to become the Chancellor. I don't know what a good deal would look
:31:19. > :31:22.like for all 27 to agree on. You are absolutely right, we also hear that
:31:23. > :31:28.Germany is certainly trying to restrain countries who want this to
:31:29. > :31:30.be sort of a process of punishment for the UK. The Germans are very
:31:31. > :31:35.worried about what might happen to the City of London if there is a
:31:36. > :31:38.punitive approach taken on the question of financial services for
:31:39. > :31:41.instance, but each country has different interests which is why
:31:42. > :31:47.there is a suspicion here that the EU, sorry the UK may try to divide
:31:48. > :31:51.and rule a bit when negotiations begin. And they think the EU was
:31:52. > :31:55.very aware of that and at the moment is stressing they are going to go
:31:56. > :31:59.into this as one united bloc. Certainly after the Malta summit all
:32:00. > :32:04.EU leaders were stressing that they would be negotiating as a bloc and
:32:05. > :32:08.the UK would not be able to peel off individual countries and played to
:32:09. > :32:14.individual interests. One final thing, coming out of negotiators
:32:15. > :32:18.negotiating as a bloc. Some in the British government are saying that
:32:19. > :32:23.once Article 50 is triggered, a deal, not much will happen, because
:32:24. > :32:28.of all the elections I mentioned, but a deal on reciprocal rights will
:32:29. > :32:32.be done quickly for EU nationals here and UK nationals in the rest of
:32:33. > :32:36.the EU. And that will partly be done to keep Eastern Europe on board and
:32:37. > :32:40.they do think that that will happen quickly, but then there will be a
:32:41. > :32:45.hiatus as the French elections get underway followed by the others. Is
:32:46. > :32:52.there any indication about where you are that the EU may be on board for
:32:53. > :32:56.this too? Look, not in concrete terms, but I think it would make
:32:57. > :33:01.sense. There is an eagerness in the UK to get this done and they went
:33:02. > :33:05.conceded outside the formal negotiations and I think the feeling
:33:06. > :33:08.is within the EU the same approach has to be taken so it could well be
:33:09. > :33:13.that has taken off the table quickly and then the EU knuckles down and
:33:14. > :33:18.work out how it's going to negotiate but you are right. I think we can
:33:19. > :33:22.expect a lag until proper negotiations begin. We've got to
:33:23. > :33:27.expect to get the elections out of way first. Until the summer,
:33:28. > :33:31.actually. There was a tussle going on here between the council, the
:33:32. > :33:36.leaders, and the commission about the priorities and certainly the
:33:37. > :33:41.feeling of the commission want this issue around money sorted very early
:33:42. > :33:44.on. They think there is this bill, the numbers are disputed, perhaps,
:33:45. > :33:48.and it needs to be settled before you can move onto other aspects of a
:33:49. > :33:52.negotiation including a possible parallel talks on traditional trade
:33:53. > :33:55.agreement. What's going to be fascinating of the next few weeks is
:33:56. > :33:59.trying to work out who is winning that fight between the institutions
:34:00. > :34:02.in the European Union as they approach this negotiation. Thank you
:34:03. > :34:06.very much, good to talk to you in Brussels. Ben finishes on what is
:34:07. > :34:12.going to be putting the EU reciprocal rights to one side and
:34:13. > :34:16.the British government has become confident it can do a good deal on
:34:17. > :34:22.that, but then nothing else. There is then, we've done that, on the
:34:23. > :34:26.other hand, this demand between the Europeans saying you have got to
:34:27. > :34:30.saddle the Brexit divorce bill before we talk about free trade. If
:34:31. > :34:33.you speak to our government is a deal-breaker and they won't do that.
:34:34. > :34:38.They want the two things to go in parallel. At the same time, there's
:34:39. > :34:44.no way the British government will get itself into a situation where it
:34:45. > :34:48.says how much do you want? Call it 30, said Lon 45, dear is a large
:34:49. > :34:55.cheque and let's talk about future terms. It's a nonstarter. The reason
:34:56. > :35:00.the government has talked in much blunter terms about no deal being
:35:01. > :35:06.better than a bad deal, preparing people for the possibility of hard
:35:07. > :35:09.Brexit, the reality is, which the analysis illustrator, if it was a
:35:10. > :35:15.straightforward deal between Germany and the UK, that's not
:35:16. > :35:20.straightforward but much easier to envisage how such a deal could be
:35:21. > :35:25.concluded. The Germans are terrified of the eurozone being disrupted. The
:35:26. > :35:30.eurozone debt machine, 75% of it, is run out of London, so they want...
:35:31. > :35:36.They essentially don't want the Eurozone settlements disturbed at
:35:37. > :35:39.least not in the short term, but it becomes apparent from the European
:35:40. > :35:45.Parliament is saying that even if you get a deal like that done, and
:35:46. > :35:48.Germany and Britain, but two largest competitors agree, it can go to the
:35:49. > :35:53.European Parliament and be voted down, so I think the government have
:35:54. > :35:59.consciously prepared people for the possibility of chaos on the
:36:00. > :36:05.continent and a deal, even if it agreed, somehow being vetoed. The
:36:06. > :36:09.way ahead is as clear as mud. Yes, life in politics is, located but we
:36:10. > :36:14.haven't seen anything yet with the interests of all institutions and
:36:15. > :36:17.the 27 nations all quarrelling with one another and, of course, if you
:36:18. > :36:21.turn around to the EU and say we're not interested in settling the bill,
:36:22. > :36:25.much of it for the pensions of British people who have worked in
:36:26. > :36:28.the EU and much of it is also for the costs of ongoing EU programmes
:36:29. > :36:34.in Britain which won't wrap up overnight... That we could deal
:36:35. > :36:37.with. We don't know about the pensions. It will be put at the
:36:38. > :36:40.difficult for a government to agree to a massive bill for pensions for
:36:41. > :36:45.EU bureaucrats whose pensions are three times the average wages in
:36:46. > :36:48.Britain. I'm not saying it's not difficult but if you're standing
:36:49. > :36:51.firm and saying we're not going to cooperate, than the one thing you
:36:52. > :36:55.did from those 27 nations is the feeling that we are not just an
:36:56. > :37:00.almighty irritant that is delaying everything they want to do with the
:37:01. > :37:05.EU over the next couple of years. I think it is accepted that we will
:37:06. > :37:11.have to settle, but in what order it happens? What's impossible to
:37:12. > :37:15.envisage is the government paying the money before it has any idea
:37:16. > :37:23.what the deal is. The money will become a Thorogood payment to access
:37:24. > :37:28.payment to EU access -- sorry but payment. There's a difference
:37:29. > :37:33.between three years, for his contribution from the UK which
:37:34. > :37:36.settles the programmes we got into before the referendum. A big
:37:37. > :37:42.difference between that and an ongoing payment. I think that is
:37:43. > :37:43.probably, year after year, payments something Tory backbenchers would
:37:44. > :37:45.not stomach. Now it has asbestos, leaks,
:37:46. > :37:51.fraying electrical cables and the whole place is at high risk
:37:52. > :37:55.of a catastrophic failure. No, I'm not talking about the Daily
:37:56. > :37:58.Politics studio but rather, that other World Heritage Site,
:37:59. > :38:00.the Palace of Westminster, home Now today the Public Accounts
:38:01. > :38:13.Committee has said the Palace should be vacated while urgent restoration
:38:14. > :38:15.work is carried out. Parliament's spending watchdog
:38:16. > :38:17.argues that moving MPs and peers down the road rather than keeping
:38:18. > :38:20.them on site during a renovation is the most economic
:38:21. > :38:24.and efficient option. The Public Accounts Committee
:38:25. > :38:27.is backing a call by a joint parliamentary committee for a full
:38:28. > :38:29.decant of the palace, meaning it would be closed for six
:38:30. > :38:41.years while work is carried out. This option, which would see MPs
:38:42. > :38:44.move into a temporary debating chamber in the Department of Health
:38:45. > :38:47.and peers to the QE2 conference centre, would
:38:48. > :38:57.cost around ?4 billion. A partial decant -
:38:58. > :39:01.vacating first the Commons and then the Lords -
:39:02. > :39:04.would take 11 years and add approximately
:39:05. > :39:13.?500 million to the cost. While keeping everyone on site
:39:14. > :39:19.during the repairs would mean it was 32 years before
:39:20. > :39:21.the work was completed. The PAC pointed out that also
:39:22. > :39:26.between ?50 million and ?60 million was already being spent
:39:27. > :39:29.on maintaining the building every year and urged parliamentarians
:39:30. > :39:33.to have a vote on the options sooner rather than later, pointing out that
:39:34. > :39:37.further delays may add up to ?85 million a year to the bill
:39:38. > :39:48.for capital costs. And I'm joined now by the chair
:39:49. > :39:53.of the Public Accounts And the Conservative MP
:39:54. > :39:56.Shailesh Vara, who wants MPs to remain in the Palace,
:39:57. > :40:13.moving over to the House of Lords The cheapest option and the quickest
:40:14. > :40:19.option, if it could be described as cheap, is for everybody to get out,
:40:20. > :40:24.right? Absolutely. That would take how long? The estimate is six years
:40:25. > :40:27.but you've got to make the decision in principle. The full business case
:40:28. > :40:32.we worked out will deal with this uncertain issue but we've known,
:40:33. > :40:35.having major projects that the Public Accounts Committee looks at,
:40:36. > :40:39.there's good evidence to do it in one hit, rather than dribble it out
:40:40. > :40:44.over a long period of time, and that sort of thing will add costs just
:40:45. > :40:50.like if you had a house extension. If the cost of moving the peers out
:40:51. > :40:53.and moving the MPs to the Lords while you get on with all of it,
:40:54. > :41:00.that side of the Palace, I'd put this in quotes, only 500 million, it
:41:01. > :41:04.would be advertised over 11 years now, so it's about 50 million a
:41:05. > :41:13.year, which, in the scheme of things, given the spending, is not
:41:14. > :41:18.huge, but that symbolically be more acceptable that the MPs would stay
:41:19. > :41:24.in a chamber which looks a bit like the one they have got, just rather
:41:25. > :41:28.more glittery? These are not actual costs, let's be care about that. It
:41:29. > :41:33.means they have done some work to analyse what the costs will be and
:41:34. > :41:36.to extrapolate like that, quite robustly, but to do a proper
:41:37. > :41:39.business case on the project you can't be sure of all of these
:41:40. > :41:43.figures. They are pretty robust as they can be at this stage which is
:41:44. > :41:46.why we need to settle on one because the cost of doing the business case
:41:47. > :41:51.is quite something. From our experience, get on with it.
:41:52. > :41:55.Crucially, make a decision. A bit like the one we've taken for the
:41:56. > :41:59.third runway at Heathrow. Exactly, you raise the case in point. We have
:42:00. > :42:04.a bit of a habit of delaying long-term decisions but we got to
:42:05. > :42:08.get on with it. What is your view? It needs to be done urgently, but
:42:09. > :42:13.when you've got an eight acre site, there is room for Parliament to set
:42:14. > :42:19.on the premises, on the Palace, while work is being carried out. All
:42:20. > :42:24.of Parliament? I think both houses Oskars Melbardis addressed one has
:42:25. > :42:28.has a footprint. That important for a number of reasons. At the time of
:42:29. > :42:33.Brexit, in the years after Brexit, we will be out there on the
:42:34. > :42:35.international scene trying to curry favour, make closer friendships with
:42:36. > :42:42.other countries, secure favourable trade agreements and where will we
:42:43. > :42:46.be operating from? Basically a Portakabin in the courtyard of the
:42:47. > :42:51.Department of the government, and also it's important to remember that
:42:52. > :42:59.in the longer run, the costs are neutral whether we decamped or we do
:43:00. > :43:05.it quickly. Clarify one thing. I understand the plan that you get the
:43:06. > :43:09.Lords to move, because nobody really cares where they go, and you move
:43:10. > :43:13.the Commons into their chamber but if you keep both, what would you do
:43:14. > :43:19.with them? That's one of the options, Andrew. You have raised it.
:43:20. > :43:22.If you can't move the Commons into the Lords and the Lords into the
:43:23. > :43:26.Commons, where would they go? The other option is keep both of them
:43:27. > :43:32.and Westminster Hall could be an option. It is vast and massive and
:43:33. > :43:38.the reason that the joint committee report says we shouldn't have the
:43:39. > :43:42.House of Commons there is the slabs on the floor are weak. That is an
:43:43. > :43:49.absurd reason. It's been around for a long time. As far as the roof is
:43:50. > :43:55.concerned, it is so high, they can conveniently build a dome around it.
:43:56. > :44:02.Within. Last time we did that it was a real success! I want to get your
:44:03. > :44:05.response. What do you make of that? It's a nice idea but it's really
:44:06. > :44:08.impractical for the Westminster will, by the time you add the
:44:09. > :44:15.equipment to support everybody, there are structural issues. And it
:44:16. > :44:18.is a World Heritage site, that's the oldest most historic part of the
:44:19. > :44:24.Palace. The government is responsible for the World Heritage
:44:25. > :44:28.site and it is an internationally iconic building, so it unthinkable
:44:29. > :44:34.we don't do anything about it. Doing nothing is not an option but we need
:44:35. > :44:37.to move on. Your suggestion is very complicated and could be very
:44:38. > :44:40.costly. It does mean the building would effectively be at a full
:44:41. > :44:46.commission for at least 11 years whereas the do it fast option is the
:44:47. > :44:52.public could get back into it quicker, and is for the public, too,
:44:53. > :44:56.not just MPs. Its tax payers money. Their time estimates are based on
:44:57. > :45:01.one shift per day, 95. If they did three shifts, and much of the work
:45:02. > :45:06.is underground, cables and electable cables and so on, they will have to
:45:07. > :45:09.work with lights anyway, so the time frame can be shortened
:45:10. > :45:15.substantially. The other important thing to remember if I'm saying we
:45:16. > :45:19.do this this summer. The full decamped option says we should all
:45:20. > :45:23.decamped in six years' time and in the meantime, we continue to spend
:45:24. > :45:26.?600 million for patch up work and it is a complete waste of money. It
:45:27. > :45:32.would be crazy to start this summer because they got a full properly
:45:33. > :45:35.worked out spec. You can start some of the work. If you are building an
:45:36. > :45:38.extension at home, you wouldn't allow people to shift the agenda.
:45:39. > :45:49.You would have a clear spec. There is other work going on. That's
:45:50. > :45:52.partly because we haven't made the decision up to now and we can't be
:45:53. > :45:58.held responsible. We need to plan it. I want to come back to the
:45:59. > :46:02.decision process in a moment. Let me get Jenni's reaction? I'm in almost
:46:03. > :46:09.full hearted agreement with you, which doesn't happen very often. I
:46:10. > :46:13.find myself thinking that you are absolute lit right that it matters
:46:14. > :46:19.particularly at a tame of Brexit. Do you think both Chambers would stay
:46:20. > :46:25.or move out? Inclined to think, to let go of all the rituals that go
:46:26. > :46:29.along with Parliament, is part of Britain's sense of who we are and
:46:30. > :46:35.what matters. They'll be in a different thing. It's like a
:46:36. > :46:38.Portakabin. Not really. Slight exaggeration but it's worth some
:46:39. > :46:41.delay in order to have the continuity of keeping the Commons in
:46:42. > :46:44.one part of the Palace of Westminster. I'm not being
:46:45. > :46:48.knowledgeable here, just emotional. A lot of decisions are. You could
:46:49. > :46:52.also, as part of deech luges and making sure Parliament reengages
:46:53. > :46:57.with the country, you could move the Lords to Scunthorpe. Steady on! I
:46:58. > :47:02.have to say... That would be expensive. I find myself disagreeing
:47:03. > :47:05.with Jenni on the question of ritual and I never thought I would say
:47:06. > :47:10.this. 20 years ago I would have even rated that place but I would go for
:47:11. > :47:18.a complete demolition actually. Of all the buildings? Apart from
:47:19. > :47:22.Westminster Hall. Westminster Hall where Charles I was tried and
:47:23. > :47:25.William Wallace. Wouldn't we end up with the international courts with
:47:26. > :47:32.that, it's a World Heritage Site. I'm only half joking in that I think
:47:33. > :47:38.that the people who work in that building overestimate, overstate the
:47:39. > :47:43.public's affection for the building and I think a lot of the flummery
:47:44. > :47:50.that takes place in the Commons under the name of ritual and
:47:51. > :47:54.tradition is actually like a 19th version of the 17th century fake
:47:55. > :47:58.version. I find myself in the unusual position of being in a
:47:59. > :48:08.modernised process. But you still knead a building to do all the work
:48:09. > :48:13.in. The building is not going to be knocked down, despite what Mr Martin
:48:14. > :48:17.says. That may breach BBC impartiality rules but I think
:48:18. > :48:21.that's a safe bet. We have enough problems with the existing options.
:48:22. > :48:26.Tell us briefly, what is the process, is it the Commons that
:48:27. > :48:29.determines this, both Houses determine it, what happens?
:48:30. > :48:32.Ultimately because the Commons is the primary chamber, but the
:48:33. > :48:37.Government determines when the vote will take place and how that vote
:48:38. > :48:39.will happen. If you go for more than one option now, what we were
:48:40. > :48:43.concerned about is that then you have to work up two detailed
:48:44. > :48:48.business plans rather than just one. Do you do one at the same time or
:48:49. > :48:52.the other, or go for all the evidence so it shows to us which is
:48:53. > :48:58.the most cost effective and start work on that. When do you expect the
:48:59. > :49:00.decision to be taken? There have been indications that it could be
:49:01. > :49:04.before Easter but the Government have lots on their plate at the
:49:05. > :49:08.moment, I'm not holding my breath. We have got to move on, we cannot
:49:09. > :49:11.keep delaying the decision. Thank you very much.
:49:12. > :49:14.This May, people living in six city regions will get to vote
:49:15. > :49:18.These are new posts the government is insisting areas have to have
:49:19. > :49:20.if they want powers transferred from Westminster to
:49:21. > :49:26.In the West Midlands, the mayor will have an annual budget
:49:27. > :49:29.of around 40 million and responsibility for transport,
:49:30. > :49:31.housing and job creation projects over an area stretching
:49:32. > :49:36.Jenny Kumah's been to Birmingham to meet the people
:49:37. > :50:05.?92 million of skills and transport projects. It's all parts of plans to
:50:06. > :50:11.boost the region 's flagging economy. And fuel the so-called
:50:12. > :50:16.Midlands engine. Philip Hammond also went to Birmingham city centre to
:50:17. > :50:19.see this man. He's a former boss of John Lewis. And standing as the
:50:20. > :50:27.Conservative candidate for West Midlands Mayor. Iver and John Lewis
:50:28. > :50:30.for Lily ten years, enjoyed a hugely, but this is a real
:50:31. > :50:35.opportunity so I want to lead the region I grew up in the region I
:50:36. > :50:39.return to. You got a target to eradicate youth unemployment by the
:50:40. > :50:45.end of your term in 2020. Yes, that is achievable. We've reduced it by
:50:46. > :50:50.20% over the last four years. The way we will achieve that is by
:50:51. > :50:56.focusing new money, new activities on that. But this is a traditionally
:50:57. > :50:59.strong Labour area. And labour is fielding one of their most
:51:00. > :51:03.experienced politicians. He used to be a Birmingham MP who stood down
:51:04. > :51:08.beef because you want to be the city's Mayor but the election never
:51:09. > :51:13.happened because people voted in the referendum against the idea of
:51:14. > :51:19.having one. He's now an MEP and his mayoral campaign slogan has echoes
:51:20. > :51:23.of the leave campaign. I've been using this phrase for seven years,
:51:24. > :51:29.is because it was Sisley expresses exactly what it is that we are and
:51:30. > :51:32.we need to do. If it was appropriated last year by some other
:51:33. > :51:35.people for another purpose, that's not my problem and I'm not going to
:51:36. > :51:41.stop using the phrase that I have been using for years to say what has
:51:42. > :51:45.to be said about my place. We are going to take back control of the
:51:46. > :51:51.West Midlands from London. Jeremy Corbyn, is yet help or hindrance to
:51:52. > :51:56.your campaign? My concern is not who is the leader of the Labour Party.
:51:57. > :51:58.But why are huge chunks of our public services being determined by
:51:59. > :52:02.people in London who don't know anything about the West Midlands?
:52:03. > :52:06.Other parties are determined not to make a two horse race between
:52:07. > :52:10.Conservatives and Labour. Essentially we've had a few
:52:11. > :52:15.surprises in politics recently. Brexit and Trump. Was always a
:52:16. > :52:20.chance we might make a lucky third one and I'm absolutely in it to win
:52:21. > :52:24.it. The Mayor will chair the combined authority board and if we
:52:25. > :52:27.get a Labour Mayor my view is nothing will change. If we get a
:52:28. > :52:32.Conservative Mayor nothing will happen. If we get a Lib Dem Mayor I
:52:33. > :52:36.believe I can be a real unifying voice, I can bring together a
:52:37. > :52:41.cross-party consensus. I think they should consider voting Green because
:52:42. > :52:45.traditionally Labour have let people down here. If you look at the map 25
:52:46. > :52:49.years ago the least well-off areas and a map now, it is completely
:52:50. > :52:55.unchanged. I don't think any of the other candidates explain a position
:52:56. > :52:59.which appeals to ordinary people. That's what the Communists are
:53:00. > :53:04.standing. That's all the politics of how much of the candidates know
:53:05. > :53:08.about the local area? We decided to test them with our West Midlands
:53:09. > :53:15.quiz. The first motorised funeral was held in Coventry. Funeral? But a
:53:16. > :53:25.good claim to fame so let's go for true. Correct. True. Wolverhampton
:53:26. > :53:30.is the youngest city in Europe would under 25 accounting for nearly 40%
:53:31. > :53:37.of the population? I would say false, I think Birmingham is younger
:53:38. > :53:40.than one Bampton. -- Wolverhampton. Correct. Lawn tennis was first
:53:41. > :53:48.played and invented in deadly over 100 years ago. That is false.
:53:49. > :53:52.Edgbaston. Probably false, it sounds a soft southern game to me. The
:53:53. > :53:55.answer to who would be the first West Midlands Mayor will be
:53:56. > :53:58.available after the vote on May the 4th.
:53:59. > :54:08.And we're joined now by the BBC's Midlands Political
:54:09. > :54:15.I think there's a lot of interest in this Mayor for the West Midlands
:54:16. > :54:19.because you seem to have a real race on your hands there, don't you? We
:54:20. > :54:23.absolutely do. There is a sense some of the other ones in major cities
:54:24. > :54:29.north of here look a little bit like a foregone conclusion whereas here,
:54:30. > :54:33.to some extent, yes, this is the first of a new kind of election,
:54:34. > :54:37.there is nothing directly, no particular experience from the past
:54:38. > :54:42.to draw on, although the police and crime commission on elections are a
:54:43. > :54:45.little bit like it. It is a much more personality focused campaign,
:54:46. > :54:50.so the usual party political rankings, are not a complete guide
:54:51. > :54:54.as they have been in the past about, having said that, yes, we have a
:54:55. > :54:59.genuine contest here between some well-known candidates with
:55:00. > :55:05.reasonably high profiles locally and nationally. We are hearing
:55:06. > :55:08.expressions of confidence certainly from the Conservative and Labour
:55:09. > :55:14.sides, the Conservatives point out that some research by the Centre for
:55:15. > :55:21.cities suggest that they only need a 4% swing to them from the way the
:55:22. > :55:25.results stacked up in 2015 general election for them to win this one,
:55:26. > :55:33.but Labour on the other hand say if you simply look at the vote from a
:55:34. > :55:38.general election, you find this is strongly a Labour area but, as we
:55:39. > :55:42.know, party politics have moved on a lot since then. Patcher, do people
:55:43. > :55:48.feel this is a coherent region with Birmingham at the heart of it? --
:55:49. > :55:53.Patrick. Do people in Wolverhampton feel they belong to the same region
:55:54. > :55:58.as the people in Coventry? The politicians make it a region but do
:55:59. > :56:01.the people? That's a very important point because for the political
:56:02. > :56:06.leaders to whom you refer to, to get this historic agreement as it was
:56:07. > :56:10.hailed at the time, bring together the great tribal fiefdoms of the
:56:11. > :56:14.Black Country and Birmingham, it was seen as a thing at the top but
:56:15. > :56:19.frankly, there was great resistance, not just amongst the people, but
:56:20. > :56:22.local councillors. You are accused of re-venturing into the
:56:23. > :56:25.relationship between turkeys and Christmas but nevertheless you have
:56:26. > :56:30.put your finger very much on point and the key thing to remember in all
:56:31. > :56:36.of this is David Cameron and George Osborne said if you wanted the
:56:37. > :56:40.maximum level of devolution, you had to have what they call the focal
:56:41. > :56:45.point for accountability right at the top around whom people could
:56:46. > :56:49.rally, and the evidence of... In fact two referendums in Birmingham
:56:50. > :56:52.and one in Coventry, the experience of an elected Mayor in Stoke were
:56:53. > :56:58.they had a referendum and voted it down, is that there is active
:56:59. > :57:03.popular hostility to this, so we have the ironic situation that in
:57:04. > :57:06.the name of local democracy, the government has imposed what looks to
:57:07. > :57:12.many critics like a top-down solution. OK, Patrick, it's good to
:57:13. > :57:14.have a race on your hands so we look forward to coming back to and you
:57:15. > :57:15.can tell us how the race is going. Just time now for a bite-size
:57:16. > :57:18.review of the political Jeremy Corbyn's tax return raised
:57:19. > :57:27.more questions than it answered. It seemed he'd missed off his pay
:57:28. > :57:33.for being leader of the opposition. Labour said it was there under
:57:34. > :57:37.a different heading. A two billion euro takeover
:57:38. > :57:39.of Vauxhall prompted job worries but the new boss said its two UK
:57:40. > :57:44.factories will stay open. Michael Heseltine was one of 13
:57:45. > :57:47.Tory peers who demanded To ensure that Parliament
:57:48. > :57:54.is the ultimate custodian Ministers were defeated,
:57:55. > :57:59.and Lord Heseltine was fired PMQs was a riot for the PM
:58:00. > :58:05.despite Jeremy Corbyn's efforts to embarrass her over social care
:58:06. > :58:10.funding deals in Surrey. And, no surprises,
:58:11. > :58:15.promised Philip Hammond. Inside the red box
:58:16. > :58:17.there was a surprise for his own backbenchers -
:58:18. > :58:29.a rise in national insurance. There's just time before we go
:58:30. > :58:34.to find out the answer to our quiz. Today EU leaders are meeting
:58:35. > :58:37.in Brussels in the new Europa So the question was what has that
:58:38. > :58:50.building been nicknamed? they call of the Space Egg, I don't
:58:51. > :58:52.know why. Anyway that's enough for today.
:58:53. > :58:54.I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics.
:58:55. > :59:18.The thing that's so clear is that it's 100% honest.
:59:19. > :59:21.We're right in the middle of the action.