:00:40. > :00:42.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness, the former IRA commander
:00:46. > :00:47.turned Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland has died.
:00:48. > :00:56.Labour's internal divisions burst into the open last night,
:00:57. > :00:58.with one MP even referring to Jeremy Corbyn as
:00:59. > :01:02.Mr Corbyn says spirits are running high because Labour
:01:03. > :01:10.We'll be talking about the French presidential election as the main
:01:11. > :01:13.contenders clash for the first time on TV over immigration,
:01:14. > :01:18.And we'll be asking whatever happened to plans for a Holywood
:01:19. > :01:29.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:30. > :01:32.of the programme today, someone who knows a thing or two
:01:33. > :01:34.about taking politics to the big screen.
:01:35. > :01:37.Michael Dobbs is the creator of House of Cards, a former chief
:01:38. > :01:39.of staff to Margaret Thatcher and a Conservative peer,
:01:40. > :01:44.Welcome to our rather smaller screen, Michael.
:01:45. > :01:47.First today, let's talk about the death of Martin McGuinness.
:01:48. > :01:49.The former IRA leader, who went on to be Deputy First
:01:50. > :01:55.Minister of Northern Ireland, died this morning at the age of 66.
:01:56. > :01:57.It's understood he had been suffering from a rare heart
:01:58. > :02:03.He stood down from his post in January in protest at the DUP's
:02:04. > :02:06.handling of an energy scandal, a move which triggered a snap
:02:07. > :02:11.Well, let's go now to our correspondent Chris Buckler.
:02:12. > :02:17.Chris Buckler, how would you characterise the life of Martin
:02:18. > :02:22.McGuinness and his remarkable journey from paramilitary to
:02:23. > :02:26.politician? Well, all of his political beliefs and that
:02:27. > :02:30.paramilitary truth were all born here in Derry, in the Bogside of
:02:31. > :02:37.Derry, the city where he grew up and lived his entire life. It was during
:02:38. > :02:40.those years of turmoil, those years of violence, on a civil rights
:02:41. > :02:43.movement that grew up here that Martin McGuinness not only became
:02:44. > :02:47.interested in politics but he became involved in the IRA. When you take a
:02:48. > :02:50.look at the statements that have been made about his life, they show
:02:51. > :02:54.the contradiction that exists there. He was a man who was involved in
:02:55. > :03:00.violence. He was a man who was senior within the IRA. But he was
:03:01. > :03:03.also a man who reached out. Whenever you think about his political gross,
:03:04. > :03:07.if you look at what he contributed to the peace process here, you can't
:03:08. > :03:13.escape that relationship that he built with Ian Paisley. Just like he
:03:14. > :03:19.was loathed by unionists, Ian Paisley was loathed by nationalists,
:03:20. > :03:22.yet, somehow they came together and they built that unusual relationship
:03:23. > :03:26.where they would smile, they would laugh, they would joke. They became
:03:27. > :03:30.known as the Chuckle Brothers. A big part of that was just the fact that
:03:31. > :03:33.it was a genuine relationship. The two men saw something in each other
:03:34. > :03:37.that they could work with. I think that's the key point. Martin
:03:38. > :03:40.McGuinness was someone who was prepared to work at developing
:03:41. > :03:45.relationships and ultimately that did lead to the peace process being
:03:46. > :03:49.a lot more successful. But he was a divisive character, too. Obviously
:03:50. > :03:53.in the early days in the Troubles you have talked about but even
:03:54. > :03:56.latterly, I mean how will he be remembered by the local community?
:03:57. > :04:01.Well, I think it depends where you are. There is absolutely no doubt
:04:02. > :04:04.that those divides that existed for so long Northern Ireland have not
:04:05. > :04:08.gone away and ultimately if you ask about Martin McGuinness in a
:04:09. > :04:11.unionist area or if you ask about him in a nationalist area you will
:04:12. > :04:15.get different reactions. That's particularly tru, of course, among
:04:16. > :04:19.those who suffered at the hands of the IRA. Those who have relatives
:04:20. > :04:23.who were killed by the IRA, those who feel that Martin McGuinness was
:04:24. > :04:29.someone who wrecked their lives and that cannot be taken away from all
:04:30. > :04:32.of the years whenever there has been this work to achieve something,
:04:33. > :04:37.where nationalists and unionists can work together in government. There
:04:38. > :04:41.are people who still cannot forget what happened during years of
:04:42. > :04:45.Troubles. Ultimately that's an important part of the legacy of
:04:46. > :04:47.Martin McGuinness and something that will not be forgotten and that's
:04:48. > :04:49.particularly true in unionist areas. Thank you very much.
:04:50. > :04:52.So as we've been saying, Martin McGuinness was a former IRA
:04:53. > :04:55.chief of staff who went on to be a key player in the peace process.
:04:56. > :05:02.Can you say whether the bombing is likely to stop in the near future
:05:03. > :05:07.Well, we will always take into considerations the feelings
:05:08. > :05:17.I am proud and honoured to be with you here today
:05:18. > :05:23.to commemorate the peace tribute to the volunteers of
:05:24. > :05:25.the Irish Republican Army from this historic county,
:05:26. > :05:27.who gave their lives in every generation,
:05:28. > :05:30.in our legitimate struggle for freedom and justice in Ireland.
:05:31. > :05:53.I don't know whether he is five-star...
:05:54. > :06:08.Well, senior politicians have this morning been giving their reaction
:06:09. > :06:12.The Prime Minister, Theresa May, has released
:06:13. > :06:16."While I can never condone the path he took
:06:17. > :06:19.Martin McGuinness ultimately played a defining
:06:20. > :06:30.the Republican movement away from violence."
:06:31. > :06:38.And the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has tweeted:
:06:39. > :06:40.Martin McGuinness played a huge role in bringing about peace
:06:41. > :06:44.He was a great family man and my thoughts are with them.
:06:45. > :06:47.He's covered Northern Ireland over many years.
:06:48. > :06:52.Welcome to the Daily Politics. Your memories of Martin McGuinness? I
:06:53. > :06:56.first melt Martin McGuinness way back in 1972, a few days after
:06:57. > :07:01.Bloody Sunday. -- I first met McGuinness. Which is when British
:07:02. > :07:07.paratroopers shot dead 13 civil rights marchers and John Hume the
:07:08. > :07:11.nationalist politician pointed out Martin McGuinness touring a
:07:12. > :07:16.torch-lit, candle-lit vigil that he was the man I should be speaking to.
:07:17. > :07:19.At the time he was 22. I met him for the first time shortly after Bloody
:07:20. > :07:22.Sunday in the Gas Works, at the time, the IRA head quarterings in
:07:23. > :07:27.the Bogside. I was struck by several things. First of all how bright and
:07:28. > :07:32.articulate he was. How passionate he was about what he was fighting for
:07:33. > :07:38.but also what I remember him saying to me is that he'd much rather be
:07:39. > :07:43.mowing the lawn, assuming he had a lawn, on saund and cleaning the car
:07:44. > :07:47.than doing what he was doing. -- on a Sunday. I didn't pursue what he
:07:48. > :07:50.was doing with him at the time. But it was significant, at that time he
:07:51. > :07:54.was number two in the IRA in Derry. He rose quickly. Only a few months
:07:55. > :07:58.after Bloody Sunday, he was part of the IRA delegation that met the
:07:59. > :08:02.British Secretary of State, Willy Whitelaw along with Gerry Adams and
:08:03. > :08:08.he rose in the IRA from then onwards. I was always regarded
:08:09. > :08:13.Martin McGuinness as being the most senior and powerful IRA leader on
:08:14. > :08:17.the island of Ireland. Did he give off that impression? He was
:08:18. > :08:23.identified early on as somebody who would rise up the ranks, first of
:08:24. > :08:26.all as a paramilitary and perhaps then politically, but he gave the
:08:27. > :08:31.impression of being steely and tough and that must have been the case as
:08:32. > :08:36.a hard man who persuaded the IRA to give up weapons? He was a
:08:37. > :08:40.contradiction, he had enormous charm and charisma but he was steely.
:08:41. > :08:45.Behind the affable facade, the Chuckle Brothers if you like was a
:08:46. > :08:48.hard, hard, dedicated republicans. I have interviewed him on more times
:08:49. > :08:52.than I care to remember over the past 40 years. Occasionally when I
:08:53. > :08:55.would ask a tough question, like over the Canary Wharf bombing after
:08:56. > :08:59.Tony Blair was elected Prime Minister and I said to him - you
:09:00. > :09:03.must have known about the bombing Mr McGuinness. Inhe said "Why would I
:09:04. > :09:06.know about the bombing?" I looked him straight in the eye and said -
:09:07. > :09:12.because you are Martin McGuinness. That's what I got what I call the
:09:13. > :09:16.death stare. He is a contradiction but his role in bringing us to where
:09:17. > :09:22.we are now is critical. He had the confidence and support of the IRA
:09:23. > :09:25.rank and file to bring them on board to join remarkable political
:09:26. > :09:30.accommodation. And that was one of his key roles in terms of persuading
:09:31. > :09:35.them to come on board. We talked a little bit about how divisive he
:09:36. > :09:39.was. And remained so in the unionists community for many people.
:09:40. > :09:42.You were in Brighton at the time of the bombing at the hotel, at the
:09:43. > :09:45.Conservative Party Conference which killed five people and left many
:09:46. > :09:49.injured, including Norman Tebbit and his wie. Can you understand why he
:09:50. > :09:55.could never forgive Martin McGuinness and is actually still
:09:56. > :10:03.quite bitter? Oh, absolutely. I had several friends murdered by the IRA.
:10:04. > :10:09.IRA as well as those at the hotel. I could so easily have been collateral
:10:10. > :10:13.damage to all of that. It makes you think of the purpose of politics and
:10:14. > :10:17.how much you are willing to give. I can never forget what happened. I
:10:18. > :10:21.used to see Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams literally outside the
:10:22. > :10:27.studio. I could not physically be in the same room as them. That's what
:10:28. > :10:31.it meant to me, but, having said all that, what do my feelings matter?
:10:32. > :10:36.What happened in Northern Ireland is so much more important. It's moved
:10:37. > :10:40.on. It changed, McGuinness changed. And rather than going back and
:10:41. > :10:43.dwelling on the past so much, which is all too much of a problem with
:10:44. > :10:47.Irish politics, I think the importance is to move forward, look
:10:48. > :10:51.to the future and build on what has changed there and so much changed
:10:52. > :10:55.and wasn't it absolutely crystallised by the trip to Ireland,
:10:56. > :10:59.the state visit to Ireland tlat Queen made. That was inconceivable
:11:00. > :11:04.before that. Well many people thought that really was the bridging
:11:05. > :11:09.there of two communities and also going back to the history? I think
:11:10. > :11:13.his so-called conversion was genuine. People thought it was an
:11:14. > :11:17.act that was not sincere. I think it was absolutely sincere but you have
:11:18. > :11:21.to remember it was all part of the republican movement, the IRA-Sinn
:11:22. > :11:26.Fein strategy, to achieve a United Ireland in the end, in the long
:11:27. > :11:29.term, having realised that the so-called arms struggle had gone as
:11:30. > :11:35.far as it could. Brits had made it clear that the IRA were not going to
:11:36. > :11:38.win in the late 1980s because of the offensive by the SAS and others but
:11:39. > :11:41.it was part of the long-term strategy, which was to bring the
:11:42. > :11:45.unionist majority on board because the penny finally dropped with the
:11:46. > :11:48.republicans that if there was to be a united Ireland, it had to be with
:11:49. > :11:52.the consent of the majority population. That was the
:11:53. > :11:56.recognition. Would there have been a peace process, or a successful one,
:11:57. > :12:01.as it turned out, without Martin McGuinness? It's impossible to say
:12:02. > :12:05.no. I think it is unlikely because it was Martin McGuinness and you
:12:06. > :12:10.have to remember, it was a duo with Gerry Adams. Yes he was the more
:12:11. > :12:12.political man I think Gerry Adams persuaded Martin McGuinness that
:12:13. > :12:16.this was the way forward, that the arms struggle had gone as far as it
:12:17. > :12:20.could. And it was Martin McGuinness crucially who persuaded the rank and
:12:21. > :12:28.file of the IRA that this was the way forward. And I remember talking
:12:29. > :12:33.to IRA "volunteers" about the tearing up the policy of never,
:12:34. > :12:37.never having any sharing power in Stormont and they said - if it's
:12:38. > :12:40.good enough for Martin, it's good enough for us. And that, of course
:12:41. > :12:44.for many people was the proof that politics in the end can bring two
:12:45. > :12:48.sides together, you know, implacable foes, like Ian Paisley and Martin
:12:49. > :12:53.McGuinness. We've mentioned the Chuckle Brothers, those pictures of
:12:54. > :12:56.them shaking hands and genuinely using your term, laughing together,
:12:57. > :12:59.as if they general lineally worked together and liked each other. Do
:13:00. > :13:03.you think it is a model for parties of the world if you are looking to
:13:04. > :13:06.the future that you can be successful? Absolutely. What we have
:13:07. > :13:09.now is peace in Northern Ireland. It's not secured but it is there.
:13:10. > :13:14.And that is something to build on and it is a great lesson for
:13:15. > :13:18.everybody who looks around the world and sees these hotspots, resentment
:13:19. > :13:22.of civil war. Things do change and with appropriate leadership, yes we
:13:23. > :13:27.can be in a better world. The The problem is, when you are dealing
:13:28. > :13:31.with Alliedia and the so-called Islamic state, it is much much more
:13:32. > :13:35.difficult, their agenda runs over 1,000 years, rather than 50 years.
:13:36. > :13:39.We knew what the aim was. The problems in Ireland had been going
:13:40. > :13:42.on for centuries But there was a political agenda on which there
:13:43. > :13:46.could be discussions and negotiations. With regard to
:13:47. > :13:49.Al-Qaeda and the so-called Islamic State, it is very difficult to
:13:50. > :13:52.envisage that. Thank you for coming in.
:13:53. > :13:56.The question for today is which former MP has announced
:13:57. > :13:59.he is going to try and make a come back in the Manchester
:14:00. > :14:08.At the end of the show, Michael will give us
:14:09. > :14:16.Jeremy Corbyn met with his MPs at Westminster last night and it
:14:17. > :14:18.didn't sound like an entirely harmonious affair, following claims
:14:19. > :14:23.that a left-wing group is attempting to take over the party.
:14:24. > :14:26.The row began yesterday morning with the deputy Labour leader
:14:27. > :14:30.Tom Watson accusing the Unite union of being involved in
:14:31. > :14:34.a "secret plot" to help the Corbyn-supporting Momentum group
:14:35. > :14:37.take control of Labour after secretly recorded comments
:14:38. > :14:41.made by Momentum's founder, Jon Lansman, were published saying
:14:42. > :14:44."Unite will affiliate to Momentum" rather than just to Labour.
:14:45. > :14:47.Last night, the Unite leader, Len McCluskey described Mr Watson's
:14:48. > :14:53.This is extraordinary behaviour by Tom Watson.
:14:54. > :14:59.I've not had any meetings at all with Jon Lamsman,
:15:00. > :15:06.on anything, including this latest nonsense that Tom's come out with.
:15:07. > :15:10.The Unite boss spoke out at the same time Mr Corbyn addressed an angry
:15:11. > :15:12.meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:15:13. > :15:15.There was said to be shouting over the leadership's
:15:16. > :15:18.handling of the issue, with one Labour MP referring to
:15:19. > :15:23.Mr Watson was reportedly "cheered to the rafters"
:15:24. > :15:29.as he arrived at the gathering, with senior figures challenging
:15:30. > :15:32.claims he had been isolated and condemned at a "robust" earlier
:15:33. > :15:36.In acknowledgment of the day's bruising rows, Mr Corbyn released
:15:37. > :15:41.Sometimes spirits in the Labour Party can run high.
:15:42. > :15:49.That's because we're a passionate party.
:15:50. > :15:53.So I want to send a message to all party members.
:15:54. > :15:56.I want to make absolutely clear - members are an asset.
:15:57. > :15:59.As a party we must do more to involve and
:16:00. > :16:03.Let's speak now to our political correspondent Carol Walker.
:16:04. > :16:06.She was listening outside last night's meeting
:16:07. > :16:09.of the Parliamentary Labour Party - and it sounds like she didn't have
:16:10. > :16:23.Absolutely. There was an audible cheer at one stage and we learned
:16:24. > :16:29.that that was when Tom Watson walked in. We heard that there were shouts
:16:30. > :16:34.going on and we understand a lot of the anger was about a briefing which
:16:35. > :16:41.had emerged, claiming that Jeremy Corbyn had slapped down Tom Watson
:16:42. > :16:46.for his reckless intervention. Many Labour MPs were very angry indeed
:16:47. > :16:52.about this. Some senior members of the Shadow Cabinet said that Tom
:16:53. > :16:55.Watson had not been slapped down and at an earlier meeting of the Shadow
:16:56. > :17:00.Cabinet there had been a lot of support for his view. There was
:17:01. > :17:05.anger, with one MP talking about Jeremy Corbyn as a so-called leader.
:17:06. > :17:09.He had sat there looking at the floor for quite a bit of the meeting
:17:10. > :17:12.and then had to stand up at the end and appeal for everyone to start
:17:13. > :17:15.talking about the issues which voters wanted to talk about rather
:17:16. > :17:22.than internal issues within the Labour Party. Afterwards, one senior
:17:23. > :17:27.figure a veteran of previous battles said it was like 1985 all over
:17:28. > :17:32.again. Another very senior figure around at the time came out shortly
:17:33. > :17:36.after and said, in fact, it was much worse than that. We have had this
:17:37. > :17:40.appeal for unity from Jeremy Corbyn, something we've heard quite a few
:17:41. > :17:45.times before, but I'm not sure that will be the end of this row. It
:17:46. > :17:51.doesn't sound like it. Much of the row, as you've explained, centres on
:17:52. > :17:55.the claim that the Unite union and Len McCluskey are planning to
:17:56. > :18:02.affiliate to Momentum. Those were claims made by Jon Lansman. What has
:18:03. > :18:06.happened with that. This matters because Unite is Labour's biggest
:18:07. > :18:11.donor, so if it was going to switch allegiance or at least part of its
:18:12. > :18:16.funding to Momentum, this left-wing activist group, that would be a very
:18:17. > :18:20.big issue indeed. Unite has its own contest going on for leadership. Len
:18:21. > :18:24.McCluskey is hoping to get another term as general secretary and has
:18:25. > :18:29.dismissed the claims earlier as preposterous and has gone back on
:18:30. > :18:32.the attack. Today he has written a blog for the Huffington Post website
:18:33. > :18:38.in which she accuses Tom Watson of living in a world of skulduggery,
:18:39. > :18:41.smears and secret plots, saying that when Labour needed loyalty Tom
:18:42. > :18:47.Watson was sharpening his knife and looking for a back to stab. What we
:18:48. > :18:52.are seeing now is pretty open warfare within the Labour Party.
:18:53. > :18:56.Extraordinary as Tom Watson and led McCluskey used to be close but are
:18:57. > :19:02.at one another's throats -- Len McCluskey. There are some struggles
:19:03. > :19:06.with Labour MPs wanting Jeremy Corbyn to do more to stand up to
:19:07. > :19:10.Momentum, as Tom Watson has done, whereas others say Tom Watson is
:19:11. > :19:13.stirring up trouble and laying bare the wounds when we should be trying
:19:14. > :19:14.to pull together. I think this one will run and run.
:19:15. > :19:16.Let's speak now to the Labour MP Toby Perkins.
:19:17. > :19:20.He resigned from his job as a shadow minister last year saying Mr Corbyn
:19:21. > :19:23.wasn't destined to be Prime Minister.
:19:24. > :19:30.You have listened to Carole Walker. Open warfare between two sites in
:19:31. > :19:33.the Labour Party with Tom Watson being accused of skulduggery and
:19:34. > :19:41.backstabbing by Len McCluskey. What is going on? I think that is
:19:42. > :19:44.inflaming language and is not helpful. My county council
:19:45. > :19:48.candidates are facing election and they are furious to see that at a
:19:49. > :19:52.time when the entire party should be focused on getting good results in
:19:53. > :19:59.the elections there is, first, Momentum apparently planning for a
:20:00. > :20:02.future leadership election and supporting the Corbin leadership at
:20:03. > :20:06.the moment, and this continues to go on. What we need is everyone to be
:20:07. > :20:11.united on getting the best results in the election and I think there is
:20:12. > :20:14.a lot of support for the fact that Tom Watson is the deputy leader of
:20:15. > :20:19.the party and he sees a threat to the future of the Labour Party and
:20:20. > :20:22.the tape that Jon Lansman was featured in was clear on seeing
:20:23. > :20:26.money move away from the Labour Party towards Momentum and I think
:20:27. > :20:32.he was right to speak up. You think Tom Watson was right to go public?
:20:33. > :20:38.So what do you say to Len McCluskey? I would like Len McCluskey and I
:20:39. > :20:41.will be voting in the Unite election, and I want to say that if
:20:42. > :20:45.he is re-elected there is no question that they will affiliate to
:20:46. > :20:50.Momentum. He said it was not planned but he has not made it clear that if
:20:51. > :20:54.I'd vote for him in the leadership contest, he will prevent that
:20:55. > :21:00.happening and I would liken to say that. You voted for him in that
:21:01. > :21:04.contest? Probably not, but I think all voters have a right to know what
:21:05. > :21:07.they are being asked to vote for and I think Len McCluskey should end a
:21:08. > :21:13.lot of this speculation. What Jon Lansman has said, that if Len
:21:14. > :21:17.McCluskey was re-elected that Unite would be affiliated to Momentum and
:21:18. > :21:20.also the sensible measures that Jeremy Corbyn put in place to make
:21:21. > :21:25.sure Momentum only allowed Labour members to join it were actually
:21:26. > :21:28.being flouted under his leadership. These are serious allegations and
:21:29. > :21:33.all others should be focusing on the elections. The chair of the
:21:34. > :21:37.Parliamentary Labour Party, John Cryer, was reported to say last
:21:38. > :21:42.night that he is convinced that Momentum is a party within a party.
:21:43. > :21:48.How concerned are you about that influence? I am very concerned about
:21:49. > :21:53.Momentum's influence. Jon Cryer is a left-wing voice who is a party
:21:54. > :21:57.loyalist. He is absolutely on record as saying that we should have a very
:21:58. > :22:01.wide body of opinion in the Labour Party, it's always been there. He
:22:02. > :22:05.was critical of many things that Tony Blair did. But there was always
:22:06. > :22:09.a place for John Cryer in the party and they should be in any sensible
:22:10. > :22:13.political party, recognising people right across the spectrum within the
:22:14. > :22:18.party. They should be united in trying to get the best results in
:22:19. > :22:22.the elections. You sound angry about what is going on. And presumably
:22:23. > :22:25.that was expressed at the Parliamentary Labour Party by you
:22:26. > :22:30.and others last night? I walked out that meeting and see Seamus Milne
:22:31. > :22:34.addressing the media about what is supposed to be a Private meeting.
:22:35. > :22:41.It's not helpful. Seamus Milne, who is the chief aide to Jeremy Corbyn.
:22:42. > :22:44.He was doing what? In previous meetings he is effectively holding a
:22:45. > :22:47.press conference on what has just gone on in a private meeting and
:22:48. > :22:50.it's not helpful. That is a Private meeting but it's fair to say that
:22:51. > :22:55.the overwhelming mood of the meeting is that we should be united on
:22:56. > :22:58.supporting county council candidates and the local government elections
:22:59. > :23:05.in Scotland and Wales, and people close to Jeremy Corbyn and we should
:23:06. > :23:10.not be looking at the next election it should be about the party now.
:23:11. > :23:13.This is all about reflecting somebody with similar views to
:23:14. > :23:16.Jeremy Corbyn taking over. You can draw your own conclusion if you
:23:17. > :23:20.listen to the tape from Jon Lansman. In terms of what happens to the
:23:21. > :23:23.Labour Party now, if you are cross about briefings going on from
:23:24. > :23:27.Private meetings such as the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting
:23:28. > :23:31.last night, what did you make about briefings against Tom Watson being
:23:32. > :23:36.slapped down by the Shadow Cabinet? Again, I don't think that is
:23:37. > :23:39.helpful. I think Tom Watson is speaking up for the party when he
:23:40. > :23:43.sees and existentialists threat. It's the job of the deputy leader to
:23:44. > :23:46.allow the leader to get on and do the politics and for the deputy
:23:47. > :23:50.leader to deal with party matters. That is why Len McCluskey and Unite
:23:51. > :23:54.were behind Tom Watson becoming deputy leader about 18 months ago. I
:23:55. > :23:58.just wish everybody would get on with the job that they have. I think
:23:59. > :24:02.Tom is absolutely right to speak up the party when he sees an
:24:03. > :24:06.existential threat and I think Shadow Cabinet and the rest of the
:24:07. > :24:09.PLP should support him. So we can stop talking about this rubbish and
:24:10. > :24:13.talk about things like the Derbyshire County Council campaign
:24:14. > :24:16.for a Labour authority. Labour is 19 points behind the Conservatives
:24:17. > :24:21.despite what people have described as another on the shambles of a
:24:22. > :24:26.budget. It does not look good. We are not pretending it is good. In a
:24:27. > :24:30.really bad place. But we are only going to get in a better place when
:24:31. > :24:34.organisations like Momentum spend their time talking about what goes
:24:35. > :24:37.next rather than focusing on supporting Jeremy Corbyn. County
:24:38. > :24:40.council candidates and local election candidates in Scotland and
:24:41. > :24:42.Wales need support in what really important clashes coming up.
:24:43. > :24:44.Well, speaking on Newsnight last night, Emily Thornberry,
:24:45. > :24:46.the Shadow Foriegn Secretary, expressed frustration
:24:47. > :24:48.at the in-fighting within the Labour Party.
:24:49. > :24:51.When we have discussions on policies, actually it is quite
:24:52. > :24:54.easy, relatively easy for us to come together.
:24:55. > :24:57.Because this is a dreadful Government and we know that we have
:24:58. > :24:59.to be an alternative to it and we want to be able
:25:00. > :25:02.to put out a policy offer, and then we descend into personality
:25:03. > :25:04.politics and fighting amongst ourselves and we have
:25:05. > :25:08.and we have to focus on what the Labour Party
:25:09. > :25:12.We're joined now by the shadow international trade
:25:13. > :25:23.Welcome back to the programme. Isn't it somewhat hypocritical Jeremy
:25:24. > :25:28.Corbyn in his video to call for unity when his people are briefing
:25:29. > :25:33.against the deputy leader? Let's be clear. There was a joint statement
:25:34. > :25:39.yesterday from both Tom and Jeremy. And what that said was that we must
:25:40. > :25:43.focus on unity, absolutely right. It said that it was good that the
:25:44. > :25:49.Labour Party was a broad spectrum of views from the centre-left of
:25:50. > :25:52.British politics. That was right. So why were journalists briefed that
:25:53. > :25:56.the deputy leader of the Labour Party was slapped down in the Shadow
:25:57. > :26:02.Cabinet meeting? I never discuss what goes on Shadow Cabinet or what
:26:03. > :26:06.goes on at the PLP for a very good reason, because they are Private
:26:07. > :26:10.Reed -- meetings, and in private meetings you have to have the
:26:11. > :26:14.freedom to express yourself. But there were off the record breath
:26:15. > :26:18.freedoms to journalists who said Tom Watson was slapped down. -- off the
:26:19. > :26:21.record briefings. You are trying to get me to say what is happening at
:26:22. > :26:26.the meetings and I never comment on it. All I can say is, they should
:26:27. > :26:30.not be any briefings Private meetings outside. Because what it
:26:31. > :26:34.does is damage the process of free and open discussion. Was it right
:26:35. > :26:40.for Tom Watson to talk openly about his fears about momentum taking over
:26:41. > :26:43.the Labour Party? Part of the joint statement that was put out about
:26:44. > :26:49.this said that every group within the party has the right to try and
:26:50. > :26:54.influence the party and the policies. That is right, whether it
:26:55. > :26:57.is progress, tribute, the Fabian Society. That is not what was said
:26:58. > :27:03.in the recordings by Jon Lansman. Let's be clear, that is not what Tom
:27:04. > :27:06.Watson was referring to. Jon Lansman was saying that Unite, the big donor
:27:07. > :27:11.to the Labour Party was going to move some of its funding to Momentum
:27:12. > :27:17.rather than keeping it with the Labour Party and that there were
:27:18. > :27:19.plans to take over regional party selections, and influence
:27:20. > :27:25.candidates. Was it right the Tom Watson came clean about that? Let me
:27:26. > :27:29.be clear because you've asked a number of specific questions. The
:27:30. > :27:33.first thing I would say is, the joint statement that Tom and Jeremy
:27:34. > :27:41.put out also said that no group speaks for the leadership except
:27:42. > :27:44.themselves. So the claim by any faction within the party that they
:27:45. > :27:49.are speaking for Jeremy or the leadership is wrong. They made that
:27:50. > :27:52.very clear. That is the question I ask you, was it right the Tom Watson
:27:53. > :27:57.went public with what he sees as a battle for the core of the Labour
:27:58. > :28:00.Party? I think every group within the Labour Party, as Tom himself
:28:01. > :28:04.said in a statement, has the right to try and influence the party. What
:28:05. > :28:07.they don't have the right to do, and this is the nub of the argument, is
:28:08. > :28:12.they don't have the right to have people in their membership who are
:28:13. > :28:17.not members of the Labour Party. So what do you say to Jon Lansman who
:28:18. > :28:20.say they will not kick anyone out? That presumably includes people who
:28:21. > :28:26.are not believers in the Labour Party? That would be absolutely
:28:27. > :28:30.wrong for them to be a group that has people who are not Labour Party
:28:31. > :28:35.members who are trying to influence the Labour Party policy from within.
:28:36. > :28:42.Do you agree with Jon Cryer? Let me just ask this. It is also out with
:28:43. > :28:46.the party rules. So they are not entitled. So what will you say to
:28:47. > :28:51.Jon Lansman? I don't know Jon Lansman and I've never met him. What
:28:52. > :28:55.should the leadership do? What must happen is that the general
:28:56. > :29:01.secretary, if there are credible reports here, and don't forget that
:29:02. > :29:04.this general secretary has been very energetic in making sure that
:29:05. > :29:11.anybody who he believes is not a Labour Party member is expelled from
:29:12. > :29:15.the party. Or, you know, who have a track record of being against the
:29:16. > :29:19.Labour Party. And he has made sure that a number of people are not able
:29:20. > :29:22.to join the Labour Party. That is the process that is already
:29:23. > :29:26.happening within the Labour Party, and it's a matter for the general
:29:27. > :29:31.secretary to address and look at, not actually for the leader. The
:29:32. > :29:33.structure of the party puts that responsibility on the general
:29:34. > :29:37.secretary. He is busily worried about it and feels there is a battle
:29:38. > :29:41.for the party and he supported by the chairman of the Parliamentary
:29:42. > :29:45.Labour Party, John Cryer, who says Momentum is acting as a party within
:29:46. > :29:50.a party, and we are back to the 1980s. When Militant was infrared --
:29:51. > :29:54.infiltrating the Labour Party. Do you agree with John Cryer and Tom
:29:55. > :29:59.Watson? I believe that anybody who is trying to gain entry into the
:30:00. > :30:01.Labour Party who is not a Labour Party member or sympathiser and is
:30:02. > :30:07.trying to influence the Labour Party should not be allowed to do it. Is
:30:08. > :30:11.it as bad as the 1980s and Militant? I remember the 1980s and I was a
:30:12. > :30:18.member of the party in those days. I don't believe it is. But it doesn't
:30:19. > :30:23.matter whether it is as bad or less bad, it shouldn't happen. And that
:30:24. > :30:27.is what the party must properly addressed through the rules that we
:30:28. > :30:29.have, if it's happening, and I don't know whether it is. But if it is, it
:30:30. > :30:39.must be done. Could I interject and ask a
:30:40. > :30:42.question. You couldn't make 24 up about the Labour Party although
:30:43. > :30:46.perhaps I did at some stage but it is a very serious case of political
:30:47. > :30:49.in-fighting. Now, there's been a lot of talk recently about the poblted
:30:50. > :30:53.of an early election being called. -- possibility. In order for that to
:30:54. > :30:56.happen in most circumstances, the Parliamentary Labour Party would
:30:57. > :31:01.have to vote for support of an early election. Jeremy Corbyn has always
:31:02. > :31:04.said that he would do so if he were asked, if the question were put to
:31:05. > :31:09.him, would the Parliamentary Labour Party support him on that? Would
:31:10. > :31:12.they back an early election right now? Can I just say that there are
:31:13. > :31:19.elections in this country. They are going to be happening in May and all
:31:20. > :31:23.our energies quite rightly should be focussed on that. I'm talking about
:31:24. > :31:27.a general election, we have had front pages and lots of speculation.
:31:28. > :31:34.I am very happy to answer the question. This is a Government that
:31:35. > :31:38.has a ?2 billion black hole in its Budget from last week because of the
:31:39. > :31:40.national insurance contribution U-Turn. I don't hear you supporting
:31:41. > :31:45.Jeremy Corbyn. This is a point that Jeremy has made himself. This is a
:31:46. > :31:50.Government that took ?4.6 billion out of social care and a Government
:31:51. > :31:54.that has had its own party fined the largest electoral fine... So would
:31:55. > :31:59.you back a motion? Would you sporan early general election. I would like
:32:00. > :32:03.to get rid of this awful Government adds quickly as possible and,
:32:04. > :32:07.therefore, of course, I would sporan early general election because I
:32:08. > :32:09.want Theresa May out and a Labour Government in as quickly as
:32:10. > :32:17.possible. -- I would sporan early general election. Before we end, on
:32:18. > :32:22.Len McCluskey, we heard the General Secretary of Unite, standing for
:32:23. > :32:26.election again, accusing Tom Watson of skulduggery, is that helpful?
:32:27. > :32:29.Given all I have said about the chaos going on in the Conservative
:32:30. > :32:33.Party. And you are 19 points behind in the polls. I have children in my
:32:34. > :32:38.school because of the funding formula, in my schools in my
:32:39. > :32:45.constituency, will beeds 900 percapita. Why are you 19 points
:32:46. > :32:49.behind. -- ?900. That's why we need to attack this Government not each
:32:50. > :32:52.other. I don't care who it is. I don't want to see members of my
:32:53. > :32:56.party attacking each other. I want to see them focus on the people
:32:57. > :33:00.undermining this country, that's this Government.
:33:01. > :33:02.Later today, the Scottish Parliament will begin a two-day
:33:03. > :33:04.debate on whether to call for a second
:33:05. > :33:11.If, as expected, MSPs back the motion, it will
:33:12. > :33:14.from First Minister Nicola Sturgeon to Prime Minister
:33:15. > :33:16.Theresa May for a rerun of the 2014 referendum.
:33:17. > :33:18.Let's go to Edinburgh now and our Scotland Editor, Sarah Smith.
:33:19. > :33:23.Sayeria, although they don't have an overall majority, Nicola Sturgeon's
:33:24. > :33:28.SNP party will get this motion throw, won't they? They will because
:33:29. > :33:30.the Scottish Greens will back them. They are also an
:33:31. > :33:32.independence-supporting party and have made clear they'll vote with
:33:33. > :33:35.the Scottish Government. So even though you have Labour, the Tories
:33:36. > :33:39.and the Liberal Democrats all voting against t the SNP will carry the day
:33:40. > :33:41.because in the Parliament there is an independence majority, even
:33:42. > :33:46.though the SNP don't have an overall majority. Presumably Nicola Sturgeon
:33:47. > :33:49.will then be able to say that the Prime Minister's position of
:33:50. > :33:53.blocking a referendum in terms of timing, during the Brexit irrelevant
:33:54. > :33:58.negotiations, will be democratically indefensible in her view? Exactly.
:33:59. > :34:02.And this is the point at which the SNP will try and transform this from
:34:03. > :34:05.a political argument between the SNP and Tories, into a constitutional
:34:06. > :34:08.struggle between the Scottish Parliament and Westminster, saying
:34:09. > :34:12.that the Scottish Parliament has spoken, they've asked for another
:34:13. > :34:15.referendum and that, therefore, it is democratically indefensible, as
:34:16. > :34:18.you say, for the Prime Minister to refuse it. And Nicola Sturgeon will
:34:19. > :34:21.clear clear in the debate this afternoon, she is prepared to talk
:34:22. > :34:25.about the timing. The preliminaries hasn't said never, she's said not
:34:26. > :34:29.now. Nicola Sturgeon says she's not saying, now, she is asking for it to
:34:30. > :34:33.be at some point just before or just after the UK leaves the EU and made
:34:34. > :34:36.clear there is room for discussion there. It is not at all clear that
:34:37. > :34:41.number ten are prepared 206 that conversation. So -- prepared to have
:34:42. > :34:44.that conversation. So once this is done today and positions restated.
:34:45. > :34:48.What happens next? Well, Nicola Sturgeon will go ahead and make that
:34:49. > :34:51.formal request to the Prime Minister for a referendum. She needs the
:34:52. > :34:55.parliamentary vote to give her the authority to do that. #1450e knows
:34:56. > :34:58.what the answer is going to be -- she knows what the answer is going
:34:59. > :35:00.to be the Prime Minister has made her position clear but she'll
:35:01. > :35:04.continue to make the request and continue to make the argument say
:35:05. > :35:07.saying they don't allow a referendum now the Conservative Government in
:35:08. > :35:12.Westminster, and they will keep telling you a Government that only
:35:13. > :35:15.had one Tory MP in Scotland are denying the will of the Scottish
:35:16. > :35:19.Parliament. But the question is where is public opinion. The
:35:20. > :35:21.unionists are convinced that the Scottish people don't want another
:35:22. > :35:24.referendum and it depends where you stand on the independence question.
:35:25. > :35:30.Yes, supporters are eager to have another vote. A lot of no voters say
:35:31. > :35:33.they don't want to be dragged back into another divisive battle.
:35:34. > :35:36.Whether or not the Scottish Government can win out this vote
:35:37. > :35:40.with Westminster and get the referendum they are asking for will
:35:41. > :35:47.largely depend on the public response after tomorrow.
:35:48. > :35:49.Voting for the next President of France begins in just
:35:50. > :35:50.over a month's time, a result that's likely
:35:51. > :35:54.to have a major impact not only on France but the rest of Europe.
:35:55. > :35:56.Last night saw the first TV debate between the main contenders,
:35:57. > :35:58.and it focused on the economy, terrorism and immigration.
:35:59. > :36:08.TRANSLATION: I want to put an end to immigration,
:36:09. > :36:13.that's clear and I completely stand by what I'm saying.
:36:14. > :36:15.I want to put an end to legal and illegal immigration.
:36:16. > :36:18.TRANSLATION: I've said it very clearly.
:36:19. > :36:20.It has nothing to do with secularism.
:36:21. > :36:23.The trap you're falling into Mrs Le Pen,
:36:24. > :36:27.with your provocation, is to divide society,
:36:28. > :36:31.to make the more than 4 million French people, whose religion
:36:32. > :36:36.is Islam, and the great majority, who are not into communitarianism,
:36:37. > :36:42.but who live in our Republic, is to make them enemies of the Republic.
:36:43. > :36:44.TRANSLATION: I may have committed some errors, I have faults,
:36:45. > :36:57.TRANSLATION: The classic divide, the traditional parties,
:36:58. > :36:59.those who have for decades failed to solve yesterday's problems,
:37:00. > :37:00.won't be able to do it tomorrow, either.
:37:01. > :37:04.Excerpts of a long debate last night.
:37:05. > :37:05.We're joined now by Benedicte Paviot.
:37:06. > :37:06.She's the UK correspondent for France 24.
:37:07. > :37:13.Who won? I think, and the polls seem to agree with me, Mr Macron. He had
:37:14. > :37:19.the most to lose and the most to prove. I think that he didn't lose
:37:20. > :37:22.very much and I think that he mostly impressed people. Because this is an
:37:23. > :37:28.unprecedented debate. Three hours and 25 minutes. There will be two
:37:29. > :37:32.more. And five top candidates which some of the kands dates actually
:37:33. > :37:36.were not happy about. There are 11 altogether standing for the
:37:37. > :37:42.presidency. -- candidates. The biggest clashes between the two
:37:43. > :37:47.frontrunners in the polls. The centrist, unelected, never elected
:37:48. > :37:51.before, unproven, unelected Mr Macron, a centrist who doesn't want
:37:52. > :37:56.to be from the left or right and madam Le Pen who was clear on who
:37:57. > :38:00.her target was and Mr Macron was. She said he had an incredible
:38:01. > :38:06.capacity to talk for seven minutes and say nothing. It is a great
:38:07. > :38:11.talent for politicians, generally He said it was devoid of political
:38:12. > :38:17.content. So she knows he is the man to beat. I didn't watch all but the
:38:18. > :38:19.bit I watched, Francois Fillon, once the favourite, centre-right
:38:20. > :38:24.candidate, he appeared pretty low keep and not edge gauged? I thought
:38:25. > :38:31.he looked tired -- not engaged. Subdued. When I spoke I thought he
:38:32. > :38:35.was clear and concise but he is dogged by the legal woes of this job
:38:36. > :38:39.that his wife and that his children had. It is legal, in France, as it
:38:40. > :38:43.is in the UK, to have members of your family who work for you as
:38:44. > :38:48.parliamentary assistants, what isillegal is for them not to do the
:38:49. > :38:52.work and get paid and those are the allegations. Some people will say it
:38:53. > :38:55.is amazing he is still standing literally in this contest, Francois
:38:56. > :38:58.Fillon but the result of this presidential election will be
:38:59. > :39:02.critical, as we said not just for France but the rest of Europe? In a
:39:03. > :39:05.which it is, of course it is. You have such polarised views. It is
:39:06. > :39:10.interesting, looking at the grouping there, as we can see on the monitor,
:39:11. > :39:13.all of the member look as if they have come out of central casting,
:39:14. > :39:21.you have to look at their socks to see the slightest bit of difference
:39:22. > :39:25.between any of them. The question I have for Benedicte, in this
:39:26. > :39:29.election, the accepted view is that Macron will beat Le Pen in the
:39:30. > :39:33.run-off but if that's the case does it resolve anything? Doesn't it
:39:34. > :39:36.still cast France into another few years of uncertainty as these force
:39:37. > :39:40.that is are apparent in this election are still carrying on, it
:39:41. > :39:43.won'tp end up with things going back to normal because there there is no
:39:44. > :39:52.normal any more? There is no norm A of course France is still in a state
:39:53. > :39:55.of emergency. -- no normal. And the pictures described by Marine Le Pen
:39:56. > :40:01.of a divided France and a France that needs to bring jobs, in a sense
:40:02. > :40:06.quite Trump-like, back home. She obviouslip wants a Frexit. Mr Macron
:40:07. > :40:09.would not agree with you if he were here to answer that question. He
:40:10. > :40:12.would say that he is the man for the time and the situation and that he
:40:13. > :40:16.has the solution because he believes that you can't have the same old
:40:17. > :40:19.faces. He has made it clear that he will have new people in his
:40:20. > :40:26.government. He has a small problem, though, what he needs to do and
:40:27. > :40:32.indeed let's be clear, it is historic, if Mr Macron and Madame Le
:40:33. > :40:38.Pen go through to the second round it will be unprecedented. Why?
:40:39. > :40:42.Because it will be the first time that the two socialist, central
:40:43. > :40:46.parties don't make clue to the next round and if Mr Macron makes it
:40:47. > :40:49.through, at 39, an unelected man, he will need a majority in the
:40:50. > :40:53.parliamentary elections that follow afterwards but he will have proven
:40:54. > :40:57.that for the first time ever in France, a centrist can win, that
:40:58. > :41:03.will be unprecedented. It is always left or right. Brief li, April 23rd,
:41:04. > :41:11.the fist round and the second round, the run-off is... 7th May. A Sunday
:41:12. > :41:19.in France. Always. And briefly, too. If it is Madame Le Pen and Macron,
:41:20. > :41:22.the difficulty for him he has to attract voters for other parties but
:41:23. > :41:26.she has a solid vote. They are not going to waver now Interesting you
:41:27. > :41:31.point that out. We see in the polls people who say they are going to
:41:32. > :41:35.vote for Marine Le Pen, won't change their vote, they know they'll
:41:36. > :41:41.already vote for her. The problem for Mr Macron, trying to plough a
:41:42. > :41:44.new thorough, his vote is much more of a waving vote so. When it comes
:41:45. > :41:48.to the second round will the traditional holding your nose and
:41:49. > :41:52.voting, as happened with Marine Le Pen's father, be it OK the
:41:53. > :41:56.socialists think OK he is not ideal but he is better than Le Pen.
:41:57. > :41:59.Results on the night of the 7th May. Thank you.
:42:00. > :42:02.It's definitely not the largest sector of the economy but it played
:42:03. > :42:04.a big role in the EU referendum campaign - fishing.
:42:05. > :42:06.And when it comes to negotiating the UK's
:42:07. > :42:08.departure, it's got it all - regulations, money, imports,
:42:09. > :42:10.exports, British boats fishing in EU waters,
:42:11. > :42:22.Adam's been to Aberdeenshire to find out.
:42:23. > :42:27.Very, very early in the morning in Peterhead, the biggest market
:42:28. > :42:30.I'm meeting skipper, Aaron Brown who runs the campaign
:42:31. > :42:39.They organised the imfamous flotilla during the referendum campaign.
:42:40. > :42:42.Now Aaron has penned a 100-page plan for the industry when it leaves
:42:43. > :42:49.Europe's Common Fisheries Policy, the CFP.
:42:50. > :42:53.First thing on his mind isn't fish, it's the Great Repeal Bill
:42:54. > :42:56.which will copy EU law into British law.
:42:57. > :42:59.Article 50 gives us a clean slate to leave.
:43:00. > :43:04.If we readopt all the legislation, then we've effectively re-agreed
:43:05. > :43:07.to it and nailed our feet to the floor.
:43:08. > :43:10.So when the Great Repeal Bill happens you just want them to edit
:43:11. > :43:16.Fishing needs to be exempted from the Great Repeal Bill or we'll
:43:17. > :43:22.Who do you think should have access to our fishing waters?
:43:23. > :43:26.Well, to begin with, only UK vessels should have access.
:43:27. > :43:30.Thereafter we can do the same as what Norway, Iceland,
:43:31. > :43:35.Faroe do and negotiate on an equal exchange barter basis,
:43:36. > :43:38.with the EU, but as we have the lion's share of resources
:43:39. > :43:43.in north-western European waters don't need EU waters.
:43:44. > :43:46.So that's haddock, that was caught under a quota, all of this.
:43:47. > :43:48.What do you want to happen with quotas?
:43:49. > :43:50.Well, the Government's got - when we get out of Europe -
:43:51. > :44:00.That vessels will be able to catch more but land less.
:44:01. > :44:02.You will be able to retain all the fish you catch,
:44:03. > :44:04.instead of having to discard, like you do under quotas,
:44:05. > :44:07.where you have steam all over the sea, catching more and more
:44:08. > :44:10.and more fish just to find what you are allowed to keep
:44:11. > :44:14.Days at sea, a vessel goes out, it is limited by its time
:44:15. > :44:18.That means better science, better profitability
:44:19. > :44:21.Personally, I just hope they ditch the rules forcing
:44:22. > :44:34.The UK Government hasn't said much about its plans for the fishing
:44:35. > :44:37.industry but there was a clue in the Brexit white paper, where it
:44:38. > :44:39.says it wants to reach a deal that's mutually beneficial
:44:40. > :44:42.for the UK and the EU, which suggests they're not aiming
:44:43. > :44:44.for the hard Brexit that campaigners would like.
:44:45. > :44:47.And the Fishing to Leave vision isn't shared by everyone
:44:48. > :44:55.in the industry, an industry that's so entwined in Europe,
:44:56. > :44:59.that what happens to it will tell us a lot about the whole process
:45:00. > :45:02.We're joined now from Edinburgh by the SNP MSP Stewart Stevenson,
:45:03. > :45:09.and from Brussels by UKIP's Fisheries spokesman Mike Hookem.
:45:10. > :45:15.Can I start with you, Mike? The government and the Brexit White
:45:16. > :45:18.Paper said they wanted to reach a deal on fishing that was mutually
:45:19. > :45:26.beneficial, so is anything going to change? Obviously not. As a party,
:45:27. > :45:32.we are saying this is a red line and this should not be crossed. These
:45:33. > :45:36.are our Al Waters and we want these fish back. This has to be in the
:45:37. > :45:42.wrecks of negotiations and has to be got across and it is a red line and
:45:43. > :45:47.we are not going to retreat on this -- the Brexit negotiations. But you
:45:48. > :45:51.are confident it will be a red line? It could be that the government
:45:52. > :45:58.regard fishing is one of those areas it could negotiate a way to get a
:45:59. > :46:01.better deal overall? Absolutely. Let's not forget that it was Ted
:46:02. > :46:04.Heath who gave the fisheries away back in the 70s and it will be a
:46:05. > :46:10.Tory government that does the same this time. I've no confident
:46:11. > :46:16.whatsoever in David Davis or Theresa May in negotiating this. As I've
:46:17. > :46:20.said, for us it is a red line and we want the fisheries back and we want
:46:21. > :46:24.the waters back. Stuart Stevenson, what would you like to see? We heard
:46:25. > :46:29.in the film talks about who should have access to British waters. Who
:46:30. > :46:33.should have access to British waters for fishing? There are two vital
:46:34. > :46:40.things for fishing. First of all we need to repatriate the economic zone
:46:41. > :46:43.in which the fishing responsibilities are discharged,
:46:44. > :46:47.that is for certain. But equally we need to have access to the European
:46:48. > :46:54.market and we need free movement of people because there is no point in
:46:55. > :46:58.simply catching large amount of fish when we deprive ourselves of the
:46:59. > :47:03.economic opportunity that comes from processing the fish. The food
:47:04. > :47:07.industry in Scotland is a ?5.5 billion industry. It is dependent
:47:08. > :47:11.heavily on exports, so we need to be in the kind of position that we get
:47:12. > :47:14.the fishing rights back but we also continue to have a good and fruitful
:47:15. > :47:20.relationship with the European Union. So in terms of getting the
:47:21. > :47:26.rights back in the waters back, you have common ground with Ukip? I
:47:27. > :47:31.don't have much common ground with Ukip at all. On that issue you do.
:47:32. > :47:35.They are talking about keeping people out of the country on which
:47:36. > :47:39.the processing industry in his area, in a hole and Grimsby and in
:47:40. > :47:44.Peterhead and Fraser Brown, so there is a fundamental difference. The
:47:45. > :47:49.Scottish Government in its compromise with the UK Government
:47:50. > :47:55.has made the point that we expect to be out of the Common fisheries
:47:56. > :47:59.policy but we must retain the rights to free movement people, and that is
:48:00. > :48:04.a fundamental difference from the isolationist position that Ukip
:48:05. > :48:08.preparing today. The fishing industry currently only directly
:48:09. > :48:16.employs some 11,000 people in the UK. Do you see that drastically
:48:17. > :48:20.increasing after Brexit? This is a multi-billion pound industry we
:48:21. > :48:24.could regain. We need reinvestment in the ports and in new vessels.
:48:25. > :48:29.It's quite astonishing that Mr Stevenson is standing there now when
:48:30. > :48:34.we know that over 90% of Scottish fishermen voted to leave the
:48:35. > :48:37.European Union, and he wants a referendum to leave the United
:48:38. > :48:43.Kingdom but he wants to go into the European Union. And hand the fishing
:48:44. > :48:50.fleet some waters to the European Union. We want to rebuild the
:48:51. > :48:53.fishing vessels and fleets and rebuild the industry. It is a
:48:54. > :48:59.massive industry and let's not forget that for every one man at sea
:49:00. > :49:06.there are ten jobs onshore. 90% of Scottish vitamin voted to leave? Is
:49:07. > :49:10.that the case? -- fisher men. I think it's absolutely clear that the
:49:11. > :49:14.SNP have opposed the common fisheries policy from day one.
:49:15. > :49:21.Indeed we campaigned in 1975 for a no vote in the EEC. The important
:49:22. > :49:30.point is that we need to have the ten people onshore in our area of
:49:31. > :49:35.economic interest. Our paper proposed to the UK Government says
:49:36. > :49:39.we are out, and I think that is the right compromise for us to move
:49:40. > :49:42.forward. We've heard nothing whatsoever from the UK Government in
:49:43. > :49:46.response to the paper we produced in December. It is time they read it
:49:47. > :49:50.and responded. And as you say, we've not heard much in terms of what the
:49:51. > :49:56.government intended to do. Do you think Michael Dobbs will prioritise
:49:57. > :49:59.fishing in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's a wonderful
:50:00. > :50:02.opportunity. We talk about the great repeal bill but it's actually a
:50:03. > :50:09.continuity bill because the laws will be the same as D+ one. That is
:50:10. > :50:16.not what the fishermen in the film wanted. They want a break. But the
:50:17. > :50:20.laws after that bill will be British laws, not European laws, meaning we
:50:21. > :50:25.can do what we think is right. And continue the practices of the common
:50:26. > :50:28.fisheries policy? I would be astonished. One thing that will
:50:29. > :50:32.continue is the rights of EU residents, which everyone is trying
:50:33. > :50:37.to cause a fuss about, but clearly there will be major changes to the
:50:38. > :50:41.current fisheries system. What makes you think there will be major
:50:42. > :50:45.changes? Do you think the government will go to war over fishing if it
:50:46. > :50:51.gets tough in the negotiations? This is not a 0-sum game. We will get a
:50:52. > :50:57.better deal because we are in a strong position, as we have heard.
:50:58. > :51:01.British waters are very much more extensive than European waters. Are
:51:02. > :51:07.you reassured by those words from Michael Dobbs about what the
:51:08. > :51:10.government will do? I'm not. We have been betrayed in the past by a Tory
:51:11. > :51:16.government and we will be betrayed again. For the waters back, we need
:51:17. > :51:19.the fish back, and it's a multi-billion pound industry that we
:51:20. > :51:24.would be gaining and it needs a massive investment. The government
:51:25. > :51:30.needs to promise that. I want them to promise it will not be a
:51:31. > :51:35.bargaining chip with Brussels, to say hands of our fish. It seems from
:51:36. > :51:38.what the government said is that everything is potentially up for
:51:39. > :51:42.being bargained over or negotiated over when it comes to these two
:51:43. > :51:46.years, but Stuart Stevenson, your comments about the common fisheries
:51:47. > :51:51.policy, and you would like to do that, but you are pro-EU. Do you
:51:52. > :51:54.welcome Brexit in the regard that you might be able to get rid of the
:51:55. > :51:59.common fisheries policy? I don't know what Brexit means. The UK
:52:00. > :52:03.Government has given is very little insight. The important thing is that
:52:04. > :52:06.over the next couple of years we get to a position where we understand
:52:07. > :52:11.what the UK Government is taking us into. The danger is we will block
:52:12. > :52:14.free movement of people and will damage the fishing industry and many
:52:15. > :52:18.other industries in Scotland than through the UK. The Scottish
:52:19. > :52:23.Government has an alternative offer and that is the contrast and
:52:24. > :52:27.opportunity that we will have in two years' time, or at a time that is
:52:28. > :52:33.appropriate to decide whether to endorse what looks like a very
:52:34. > :52:37.unfavourable outcome from the Brexit negotiations coming from the Tory
:52:38. > :52:41.government and an alternative where we simply make the decisions in
:52:42. > :52:44.Scotland that matter to this industry and to all the people in
:52:45. > :52:47.industries that operate in Scotland. Thank you both very much.
:52:48. > :52:48.Now, you may remember reading
:52:49. > :52:50.newspaper reports suggesting that Warner Brothers,
:52:51. > :52:51.the Hollywood studio responsible for films including
:52:52. > :52:56.is considering making a movie about Brexit.
:52:57. > :52:59.That was at least according to the spokesman for Arron Banks,
:53:00. > :53:02.a leading donor to the campaign to leave the EU.
:53:03. > :53:05.It was even suggested that our guest of the day,
:53:06. > :53:08.Michael Dobbs, might be asked to write the screenplay.
:53:09. > :53:10.It's not clear if these reported talks with Hollywood executives
:53:11. > :53:12.have proved fruitful, or if they've approached anyone
:53:13. > :53:20.But if the project does ever get off the ground, what would it look like?
:53:21. > :53:35.Sometimes it is the true stories that we love the most. Even when we
:53:36. > :53:43.know what happens at the end. But what kind of a film is Brexit the
:53:44. > :53:48.movie? If Boris Johnson had his way, it would probably be a war film.
:53:49. > :53:55.There was, after all, an invasion on the Thames, with each side trying to
:53:56. > :53:58.torpedo the other's campaign. A romantic comedy, perhaps? He was the
:53:59. > :54:01.Prime Minister who never realised how much he had in common with the
:54:02. > :54:08.Lib Dems and Labour and the Green party. OK, maybe not a romance, but
:54:09. > :54:13.quite a comedy sometimes. Mid range, the worst case, the mid range is a
:54:14. > :54:16.?30 billion hole in the public finances. For others, there were
:54:17. > :54:24.bits worthy of a horror film and plenty of people thought he was a
:54:25. > :54:29.nightmare. Then again, maybe it could be a silent movie. That is,
:54:30. > :54:32.after all, how some Labour MPs described Jeremy Corbyn during the
:54:33. > :54:39.campaign. But is any of this realistic? I just can't envisage a
:54:40. > :54:44.serious drama about Brexit and about leaving the EU generally. I can see
:54:45. > :54:48.maybe some kind of satirical comedy. You could almost imagine maybe like
:54:49. > :54:53.Will Ferrell playing one of the parts or Riki ger rays. A broad
:54:54. > :55:00.comedy, maybe. A musical, I would like to see the Muppets go Brexit or
:55:01. > :55:04.the Muppets Brexit caper. I can imagine Kermit the frog playing
:55:05. > :55:07.Nigel Farage and Fozzie Bear playing Boris Johnson. It almost works.
:55:08. > :55:09.We're joined now by the journalist Isabel Oakeshott.
:55:10. > :55:14.She edited the book by Arron Banks about his campaign to leave the EU.
:55:15. > :55:22.So, fill us in. Is there any truth to any of this or is it just
:55:23. > :55:26.fanciful? I don't think it's 100% bluster. Not 100% because I was
:55:27. > :55:30.actually in Washington a couple of months ago where there were
:55:31. > :55:34.definitely talks involving some quite high-level producers but as
:55:35. > :55:38.everybody knows, lots and lots of books get looked at with a view to
:55:39. > :55:42.these things and half the time it results in nothing. That said, I
:55:43. > :55:48.think this would make a fantastic farcical series. We don't stand to
:55:49. > :55:52.gain anything from it personally, but I think it writes itself. It's a
:55:53. > :55:59.little series you could have, a kind of Brexit themed Thick Of It. What
:56:00. > :56:05.about Michael Dobbs writing the screenplay? I was supposed to have
:56:06. > :56:10.been hiding according to Aaron Banks's spokesman, hiding in the
:56:11. > :56:16.toilet, writing the script. Actually I was at home in Wiltshire. You can
:56:17. > :56:23.kiss and tell all. Would you like to write the screenplay? No. I'm more
:56:24. > :56:26.looking forward to next Wednesday and the triggering of Article 50 and
:56:27. > :56:29.getting rid of this nonsense and looking forward rather than going
:56:30. > :56:34.back and analysing who said what in the past. That to me is already
:56:35. > :56:39.ancient history. But you are a man who likes political drama. For
:56:40. > :56:43.goodness sake, you wrote House of Cards. Surely this is great material
:56:44. > :56:47.for the next big political drama? It may be but there are more serious
:56:48. > :56:51.issues out there. And having been told that I was going to be writing
:56:52. > :56:57.this without anybody having mentioned it, I took a smidgen of
:56:58. > :57:00.offence at that. I see. You keep mentioning the word serious but you
:57:01. > :57:04.are barking up the wrong tree. Nobody is suggesting it needs to be
:57:05. > :57:09.serious. You say it is all over, but we have another two years of toing
:57:10. > :57:13.and froing and goodness knows what happens after. I just think it's an
:57:14. > :57:18.extraordinary story, and you look at the character of Aaron Banks. How
:57:19. > :57:22.did this insurance broker who is working in a David Brent style
:57:23. > :57:26.office outside Bristol somehow become such a key player in the
:57:27. > :57:30.whole campaign and end up in the Golden lived with Donald Trump? How
:57:31. > :57:38.the heck did it happen? -- the Golden lived. Is it to Beltway? It
:57:39. > :57:42.all comes down to writing and you need somebody of your calibre to do
:57:43. > :57:46.it. She is softening you up. And the Americans are interested in the
:57:47. > :57:51.story, that's another selling point. That is true. Do you think the
:57:52. > :57:55.Americans would actually engage? They have no understanding
:57:56. > :57:59.whatsoever about Brexit. They think the European Union is something like
:58:00. > :58:04.a pale reflection of the United States, and when they get close to
:58:05. > :58:08.it, they draw back in horror. They would have to laugh about it but I
:58:09. > :58:13.don't think they could take it seriously. Who would you have is
:58:14. > :58:17.Nigel Farage? James Nesbitt. But who would play Andy Wigmore? A
:58:18. > :58:21.lesser-known character but actually the much more colourful character. I
:58:22. > :58:23.know Andy would love it to be somebody like George Clooney.
:58:24. > :58:25.Suggestions on a postcard. There's just time before we go
:58:26. > :58:28.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which former MP has
:58:29. > :58:31.announced he is going to try and make a come back
:58:32. > :58:42.in the Manchester Given that the other three are
:58:43. > :58:43.earning great sums of money elsewhere, I would think it has to
:58:44. > :58:44.be gorgeous George. It was George Galloway,
:58:45. > :58:46.who predicted The One O'Clock News is starting
:58:47. > :58:55.over on BBC One now.