:00:37. > :00:40.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Suncream, cold remedies and gluten-free food will no longer
:00:44. > :00:46.be available on prescription from the NHS in England -
:00:47. > :00:51.as the boss of the health service attempts to cut costs.
:00:52. > :00:54.Ahead of Theresa May triggering Britain's exit from the EU tomorrow,
:00:55. > :00:57.campaigners for the UK to retain the closest possible ties to the EU
:00:58. > :01:00.demand the Prime Minister sticks to ten key promises on Brexit.
:01:01. > :01:07.Former Education Secretary Nicky Morgan joins me live.
:01:08. > :01:10.David Cameron promised the government would go "all out"
:01:11. > :01:16.Three years on - what's the future of shale gas in Britain?
:01:17. > :01:18.And are businesses and members of the public ready
:01:19. > :01:20.for the brand-new, high-tech ?1 coin,
:01:21. > :01:28.I like the crown, the silver in the middle.
:01:29. > :01:47.With me for the whole of the programme today
:01:48. > :01:50.I'm joined by Tom Crotty, director of the chemicals company
:01:51. > :01:52.Ineos which operates, amongst other things,
:01:53. > :02:01.the Grangemouth Oil Refinery near Falkirk, in Scotland.
:02:02. > :02:07.Later this week, the head of NHS England will issue an update on how
:02:08. > :02:10.the health service is performing during one of the tightest funding
:02:11. > :02:13.The Government claims to have pledged an extra
:02:14. > :02:15.?10 billion by 2020, but health service managers
:02:16. > :02:19.For some time they've warned that unless the NHS is given more money,
:02:20. > :02:26.Today NHS England said it would review whether to start
:02:27. > :02:29.charging for certain products currently available on prescription.
:02:30. > :02:32.NHS England said it was looking at a proposal to restrict some
:02:33. > :02:35.medicines currently available on NHS prescription.
:02:36. > :02:39.In many cases, it would cost the patient less to buy them over
:02:40. > :02:44.the counter than it does the NHS to prescribe them.
:02:45. > :02:47.Health commissioners have drawn up an initial list of 10 products,
:02:48. > :02:51.and say scrapping prescriptions for these products could
:02:52. > :03:00.-- and say limiting prescriptions for these products could save ?100
:03:01. > :03:03.million a year. Ending prescriptions
:03:04. > :03:05.for gluten-free foods would account for ?20 million of this -
:03:06. > :03:08.a fifth of the total saving. Restricting prescriptions
:03:09. > :03:10.for Omega 3 and fish oils, muscle ointments and travel vaccines
:03:11. > :03:13.could save another ?20 million. Limiting prescriptions
:03:14. > :03:15.for six other drugs, whose effectiveness is questioned,
:03:16. > :03:17.accounts for the remaining NHS Clinical Commissioners,
:03:18. > :03:21.which represents local health managers who are in charge
:03:22. > :03:24.of spending, says further restrictions on the likes
:03:25. > :03:26.of suncream, cough and cold remedies and heartburn medicines could bring
:03:27. > :03:31.the saving to ?400 million a year. But to put these numbers in context,
:03:32. > :03:34.NHS England's budget is ?120 billion this year,
:03:35. > :03:37.and the move will affect less We can speak now to the BBC's
:03:38. > :03:55.Health Editor, Hugh Pym. Looking at those figures, if the
:03:56. > :04:01.savings on relatively small compared to the size of the NHS budget, is it
:04:02. > :04:07.really worth it? Well, I suppose the argument is you've got to start
:04:08. > :04:10.somewhere if you're running NHS England and you have to achieve
:04:11. > :04:16.efficiency savings on a large scale never before achieved by the NHS.
:04:17. > :04:22.128 million a year to start off with is at least a start, maybe moving to
:04:23. > :04:25.400 million in due course. That can be reinvested in other forms of
:04:26. > :04:29.patient care is deemed to be more necessary. Just to be clear, there
:04:30. > :04:33.are some health commissioning groups in England already refusing to
:04:34. > :04:37.prescribe gluten-free food. So some of these things are already
:04:38. > :04:41.happening. What the health commissioners are calling for its
:04:42. > :04:44.national guidelines from NHS England so that everybody does the same
:04:45. > :04:48.thing, the same as you've been saying with Iomega fish oils, muscle
:04:49. > :04:55.robs and ointments, and possibly in due course moving to stop
:04:56. > :04:58.prescribing cold and cough remedies, indigestion medicines, which can be
:04:59. > :05:02.bought regularly over the counter quite cheaply. The argument against
:05:03. > :05:06.is that there will be a small number of people affected by this. Coeliac,
:05:07. > :05:10.who depend on gluten-free food, have been saying that it is more
:05:11. > :05:13.expensive, particularly for children. Therefore having a
:05:14. > :05:17.prescribed is reasonable. The other side of the argument is that it is a
:05:18. > :05:21.lot easier to get gluten-free food now in supermarket. Some people will
:05:22. > :05:24.be surprised that prescriptions were actually given for things like
:05:25. > :05:28.paracetamol, unless you're using it over a very long period of time. How
:05:29. > :05:34.have they decided which products to actually saying they're not going to
:05:35. > :05:38.give prescriptions any more to? Their starting off with a list of
:05:39. > :05:43.ten that we've just been seeing, which include certain types of
:05:44. > :05:47.medication for different conditions, which is deemed to be too expensive
:05:48. > :05:52.at the moment because the pharmaceutical company has priced it
:05:53. > :05:55.too highly. And gluten-free foods, as we have been saying, and fish
:05:56. > :06:00.oils. So there are clear about those ten. What we don't know is how much
:06:01. > :06:04.further they want to go in terms of these over-the-counter remedies and
:06:05. > :06:08.paracetamol. You can buy that sort of stuff pretty cheaply at a
:06:09. > :06:13.pharmacist, or a supermarket, and it can cost the NHS more to buy it. So
:06:14. > :06:17.does it make any sense for the NHS to prescribe it when a patient can
:06:18. > :06:20.buy themselves extremely cheaply? Equally questions have been raised
:06:21. > :06:23.about what it means for people on low incomes and benefits who do need
:06:24. > :06:28.painkillers as part of managing their condition. Why should they
:06:29. > :06:32.have to pay for something that was being prescribed? It is being
:06:33. > :06:35.emphasised these are guidelines to GPs, who will still have discretion
:06:36. > :06:38.about who they prescribe too. Clearly there will be a lot of
:06:39. > :06:44.debate around this ahead of the announcement by Simon 's deepens,
:06:45. > :06:48.head of NHS England, of his big strategic review. -- Simon Stephens.
:06:49. > :06:52.He will tell us more about how at a time of rising patient demand, the
:06:53. > :06:53.NHS can manage its finances. Thank you.
:06:54. > :06:55.We've been joined by the Conservative MP
:06:56. > :06:57.Dr Sarah Wollaston, who chairs the Commons Health Select Committee,
:06:58. > :07:00.and by Labour's shadow health minister Julie Cooper.
:07:01. > :07:07.Welcome to both of you. Sarah, do you welcome the restrictions? I
:07:08. > :07:11.broadly welcomed this, with the caveat that there should be
:07:12. > :07:14.discretion because if you have a complete blanket ban it doesn't
:07:15. > :07:19.allow for exceptional circumstances. But when we look at the items on the
:07:20. > :07:22.list, things like gluten-free products, when I started as a GP it
:07:23. > :07:27.was difficult to get hold of gluten-free products and they were
:07:28. > :07:29.very expensive. Now the costs has significantly come down and I think
:07:30. > :07:33.it's much more reasonable to ask people to think of buying those,
:07:34. > :07:38.where possible, themselves. By Julie, do you agree? A balance has
:07:39. > :07:42.to be achieved. We need to look at this, but it does seem a very
:07:43. > :07:47.strange initial list that has been developed. On the one hand, we have
:07:48. > :07:51.suntan lotion. On the other hand, serious pain relief for serious
:07:52. > :07:54.conditions. I don't think anybody wants to see any patient in the
:07:55. > :07:58.position that they were denied access to vital pain relief. Are
:07:59. > :08:06.they going to be denied on the basis of cost? Absolutely. Clearly there
:08:07. > :08:10.is a pressure on reduction of cost, albeit a small amount given the
:08:11. > :08:15.total NHS budget. But some of the things, I'm really quite surprised
:08:16. > :08:18.to hear mention of. In 24 years of working impunity pharmacy I never
:08:19. > :08:25.saw anyone get a prescription for suntan lotion. Ever! That's why I
:08:26. > :08:31.ask why these particular products have been chosen. You can see with
:08:32. > :08:34.paracetamol, you can buy a very cheaply in a supermarket if you
:08:35. > :08:41.aren't using it all the time. So that makes sense. Have some cream
:08:42. > :08:44.been prescribed? In exceptional circumstances there are some people
:08:45. > :08:48.with serious skin conditions where sun exposure can be dangerous for
:08:49. > :08:52.them. As a general rule, no, we should be prescribing suncream. The
:08:53. > :08:58.other point here is that this should be part of a wider review. There is
:08:59. > :09:01.a campaign could Choosing Wisely which sets out five questions that
:09:02. > :09:06.people should always be asking their doctor before they have any
:09:07. > :09:12.procedures. For example, is this necessary, is this necessary, what
:09:13. > :09:15.are the side effects, what would happen if I'd do nothing at all?
:09:16. > :09:20.Those kinds of questions have much more careful consideration about
:09:21. > :09:22.drugs and how their prescribed, and whether there really necessary. It
:09:23. > :09:25.sounds like this is the beginning of what will be a longer list,
:09:26. > :09:32.certainly in terms of guidelines, where there will be a tightening up
:09:33. > :09:37.on prescriptions. Would you back that, to? I would back a wide review
:09:38. > :09:40.of the whole situation. Clearly, we have to take into account some of
:09:41. > :09:44.the vulnerable people in society. Some people on low incomes as well
:09:45. > :09:48.you get access to prescriptions currently. The whole issue of access
:09:49. > :09:53.to medication is an important one because if patients choose not, or
:09:54. > :09:59.feel that they're unable to afford to buy these products, like coeliac
:10:00. > :10:04.products, the gluten-free food, it might contradict what is trying to
:10:05. > :10:07.be achieved. If people end up with expensive hospitalisation, that's
:10:08. > :10:12.contrary to what the aim was in the first place. Let's make it clear, in
:10:13. > :10:17.your mind, Sarah, is it your understanding of those entitled to
:10:18. > :10:20.free prescriptions, the elderly, would be exempt from having to pay
:10:21. > :10:25.over the counter for those things? I think the point is that there should
:10:26. > :10:28.always be exceptions. It would be at the discretion of the GP and
:10:29. > :10:32.patients. But it wouldn't be generally. It's quite clear groups
:10:33. > :10:37.of people who are already exempt, children, the elderly, people on low
:10:38. > :10:40.incomes, do you think there should be a commitment that they would
:10:41. > :10:43.continue to get them free? People who have to pay for their
:10:44. > :10:46.prescriptions, it's far more expensive to pay the prescription
:10:47. > :10:51.charge than to buy your paracetamol over-the-counter. Is it? The other
:10:52. > :10:55.thing is on the list of products, there are some things that are
:10:56. > :10:59.called items of limited clinical value. Things that you have to be
:11:00. > :11:03.asking should the NHS be prescribing any way? There is an issue of waste.
:11:04. > :11:07.One of the other issues as travel vaccinations. If you can afford a
:11:08. > :11:12.long haul flight, the argument is you can afford to pay for your own
:11:13. > :11:17.jabs. Tyre that's why we need a full review. Nobody wants to see the NHS
:11:18. > :11:22.wasting vital funding. Coming back to the point about people eligible
:11:23. > :11:26.for free prescriptions, I think it's absolutely clear that the elderly,
:11:27. > :11:30.and children, who happened to have life affecting conditions, in my
:11:31. > :11:37.view, we ought to look very seriously about continuing. If this
:11:38. > :11:40.applies stopped for them, for these products, I suspect that the saving
:11:41. > :11:45.would be as great anyway, which means that we do need this review on
:11:46. > :11:50.the impact on the wider NHS. All right. What is your take on it? I
:11:51. > :11:53.think there is definitely an affordability issue and I can see
:11:54. > :11:56.why we need the review. I think it does need to be wider. I was
:11:57. > :12:01.surprised that some of these things were wrong prescription. For
:12:02. > :12:04.example, I have my 60th birthday this year and I went to the doctors
:12:05. > :12:09.for a prescription and found that I didn't have to pay. I was amazed,
:12:10. > :12:12.because I hadn't realised. My immediate thought was, well, there
:12:13. > :12:16.are people who need this free prescription and I'm not one of
:12:17. > :12:21.them. How can we assure the people who need them getting them? Again,
:12:22. > :12:25.looking ahead to what will be decided overall funding, this isn't
:12:26. > :12:29.going to make much difference. Hugh Pym said you have got to start
:12:30. > :12:35.summer. But ?100 million out of the budget of NHS England is a. Drop in
:12:36. > :12:40.the ocean. -- you have got to start somewhere. We have an increased
:12:41. > :12:45.year-on-year and the cost of drugs. We want to be able to afford new
:12:46. > :12:48.drugs, sometimes we have to take a steely look at what we are spending
:12:49. > :12:52.existing money and to make sure it is the best value for patients and
:12:53. > :12:56.that we can use that to afford other things. And that is the point, isn't
:12:57. > :13:00.it? It's an important point, but we are potentially looking at two
:13:01. > :13:04.different things. The cost of the medication of the product, and the
:13:05. > :13:08.cost of the GP's time, which is important and expensive. I would
:13:09. > :13:12.like to see a national roll-out of minor ailments scheme is delivered
:13:13. > :13:16.through community pharmacies where people on low incomes with minor
:13:17. > :13:21.ailments requiring a relatively inexpensive treatments, like cough
:13:22. > :13:24.medicines, for example, could be provided very inexpensively. I think
:13:25. > :13:29.that's something that should be included in this review. Is it the
:13:30. > :13:33.sort of further rationing? While the debate is going on, people will see
:13:34. > :13:37.this as a political move. There were going to be announcements around
:13:38. > :13:41.spending on NHS England in terms of drugs, then do you think it is the
:13:42. > :13:45.beginning of more restrictions? We have always had a certain degree of
:13:46. > :13:49.rationing within the NHS. The trouble is, it's happening in a
:13:50. > :13:53.piecemeal way where some CCG 's have restrictions on this and not others.
:13:54. > :13:56.We need restrictions that are fair to everybody across the country.
:13:57. > :14:02.Evidence -based, that allows for special circumstances where you have
:14:03. > :14:05.to make exemptions for certain people. Let's look at this in the
:14:06. > :14:10.case of it being a relatively small amount of money, but the NHS has to
:14:11. > :14:13.do do that across the piece if it's going to deliver the services people
:14:14. > :14:15.want and expect. Thank you both very much.
:14:16. > :14:18.The question for today is which political leader plans
:14:19. > :14:20.to introduce legislation that would legalise
:14:21. > :14:31.At the end of the show Tom will hopefully give
:14:32. > :14:38.We're now just 24 hours away from the moment when Theresa May
:14:39. > :14:43.formally notifies the EU of the UK's intention to leave the union.
:14:44. > :14:45.We don't know yet what our future trading relationship
:14:46. > :14:49.We'll have to wait a while for the deal that
:14:50. > :14:54.But the Government is also pinning its hopes on better trade
:14:55. > :14:56.relations with the rest of the world.
:14:57. > :14:58.This morning, the Prime Minister and the International
:14:59. > :15:01.Trade Secretary, Liam Fox, are in Birmingham,
:15:02. > :15:08.Dr Fox opened the event with his grand vision.
:15:09. > :15:10.When Prime Minister Theresa May came to Parliament in July last year,
:15:11. > :15:14.she did so with a commitment to build a truly global Britain -
:15:15. > :15:21.a nation firmly at the heart of global trade.
:15:22. > :15:23.The vote to leave the European Union has given this country
:15:24. > :15:30.For the first time in over 40 years, we will have an independent
:15:31. > :15:32.trade policy giving us the self-determination
:15:33. > :15:34.to forge closer trading links with old friends,
:15:35. > :15:41.It is our task to build these links safeguarding Britain's prosperity,
:15:42. > :15:48.as we open a new chapter in our history.
:15:49. > :15:51.This morning, Open Europe, which is campaigning for Britain
:15:52. > :15:54.to be closer to Europe after Brexit, laid out the ten promises
:15:55. > :15:58.they believe that the Government and Vote Leave have made
:15:59. > :16:12.Welcome to the Daily Politics. The promises you have set out you expect
:16:13. > :16:20.Theresa May to keep, it includes the ?350 million a week to the NHS. Can
:16:21. > :16:25.you blame Theresa May for that claim? She was on the remain aside
:16:26. > :16:30.in the campaign and to some extent most people rubbished that figure.
:16:31. > :16:33.It was open Britain who did the launch this morning and I think we
:16:34. > :16:36.all want to have a close relationship with Europe, the Prime
:16:37. > :16:42.Minister has said we are leaving the EU but we're not leaving Europe. We
:16:43. > :16:48.carefully have picked out the 350 million on the side of a bus, a huge
:16:49. > :16:53.part of the reason people voted leave and we also have the quote
:16:54. > :16:57.from Boris Johnson in December who said that we will be getting back
:16:58. > :17:01.millions from Europe and we will spend them on essential public
:17:02. > :17:06.services including the NHS. That is what people are expecting to see. It
:17:07. > :17:12.was a campaign, not a manifesto and it was not a promise made by Theresa
:17:13. > :17:16.May, you accept that? Absolutely. It is important to recognise what
:17:17. > :17:22.people were voting for, what they were expecting the Government which
:17:23. > :17:24.has many key members of the Vote Leave campaign to deliver, people
:17:25. > :17:29.will want to hold the Government to account. Northern Ireland, no
:17:30. > :17:33.changes to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.
:17:34. > :17:38.Did Vote Leave really promise no changes to the border? There is a
:17:39. > :17:42.quote in the document about the fact they wanted the integrity of the
:17:43. > :17:46.union to be preserved and I think there is a quote from Michael Gove
:17:47. > :17:50.saying the union will not be under threat. Also the Northern Ireland
:17:51. > :17:55.Secretary has talked about there being frictionless trade. The issue
:17:56. > :18:00.of the border is incredibly important. It will be our first land
:18:01. > :18:03.border with the European Union and yet people cross it all the time.
:18:04. > :18:08.But they did not say anything about there being a border to stop people,
:18:09. > :18:12.they said there would be no return to border controls. The customs
:18:13. > :18:16.border is not the same thing. How on earth would you deliver customs
:18:17. > :18:22.checks without having something physically in place? That applies
:18:23. > :18:27.more broadly to coming into ports across the country, we do not have
:18:28. > :18:32.at the moment the IT and technology to deal with that. The point is
:18:33. > :18:37.there are a number of policies made in the campaign and by ministers
:18:38. > :18:41.since and I think as we end this phoney war as Article 50 is
:18:42. > :18:44.triggered tomorrow, it is right to say to people, we all want a good
:18:45. > :18:49.deal, this is what ministers set a good deal would look like. Let us
:18:50. > :18:52.look again at the promises. You are calling for a dramatic reduction in
:18:53. > :18:57.immigration, you say that was promised. David Davis has conceded
:18:58. > :19:03.that migration might rise post Brexit. It is about taking back
:19:04. > :19:06.control. These are, to some extent, straw men you are putting up because
:19:07. > :19:13.you know and you hope the Government will fail to meet them. No. I want
:19:14. > :19:18.the best possible deal, as does the Prime Minister and everybody else.
:19:19. > :19:22.We are leaving the EU, we have had the vote, the debate, it starts now.
:19:23. > :19:26.In order to get the best possible deal, immigration was a huge part of
:19:27. > :19:30.the reason people wanted to vote leave, they talked about taking back
:19:31. > :19:34.control, they want immigration to be controlled. You have not said
:19:35. > :19:38.whether it would fall. It was about taking back control but not
:19:39. > :19:42.necessarily whether there would be a permanent reduction. The only broken
:19:43. > :19:45.promise has been made by the Conservative government time and
:19:46. > :19:50.time again on reducing net migration to the tens of thousands. We are
:19:51. > :19:54.nowhere near that target. But as one of the reasons people feel so
:19:55. > :20:07.strongly about the issue. It is a result
:20:08. > :20:10.of policy decisions made by the last Labour government and it is
:20:11. > :20:13.something we have not discussed properly in this country for a long
:20:14. > :20:15.time. The Conservative government has made the promise under the
:20:16. > :20:17.coalition and subsequently. They said net migration would come down
:20:18. > :20:20.to tens of thousands. David Davis was being a realist last night. He
:20:21. > :20:23.will not necessarily be able to keep to this promise you have put up for
:20:24. > :20:25.the Government to stick to. One of the things I said in the opening of
:20:26. > :20:29.the document under press conference was that when these things cannot be
:20:30. > :20:33.the British public deserve an explanation. That is what we are
:20:34. > :20:37.getting towards. I'm picking what David Davis said last night, there
:20:38. > :20:43.will have to be compromises and that is why Parliament needs to be
:20:44. > :20:47.involved -- unpicking. Particularly important when we have no real
:20:48. > :20:52.official opposition to do that job. You admit there is going to be a
:20:53. > :20:55.compromise, there will have to be some conditions that will not be
:20:56. > :21:00.met, despite your ten promises you are trying to make the Government
:21:01. > :21:05.keep to? How many of the promises do you want to see the Government stick
:21:06. > :21:08.to in order for Brexit to be deemed a success? I am not involved in the
:21:09. > :21:14.negotiations. I will not get involved in the numbers. You have
:21:15. > :21:18.made these points. These are things people felt strongly about. I know
:21:19. > :21:23.from campaigning on the streets. One of the others is about having the
:21:24. > :21:27.same trade benefits as currently in the single market. That will not be
:21:28. > :21:32.possible. They will not be exactly the same. That is something for the
:21:33. > :21:35.Secretary of State for exiting the EU. He has given that promise in the
:21:36. > :21:39.House of Commons to one of my colleagues. He said because of the
:21:40. > :21:43.comprehensive trade and customs agreements, he said we would have
:21:44. > :21:48.the same trade benefits. Many businesses in this country say this
:21:49. > :21:52.is really important. I think it is absolutely right those of us who
:21:53. > :21:56.will be asking the questions, wanting the best deal, make it
:21:57. > :22:01.clear... The issue of the deal is so important. Brexit was not a
:22:02. > :22:05.manifesto, it was a straight decision, a campaign to leave or
:22:06. > :22:09.remain. The voters chose leave and the Government will try to deliver
:22:10. > :22:14.what they think the people wanted. In your question, what the people
:22:15. > :22:18.wanted, what they think the people wanted, you are right, the result
:22:19. > :22:21.was to leave, that will be delivered tomorrow. The terms are very
:22:22. > :22:22.important for the future of this country.
:22:23. > :22:25.John Redwood, who campaigned for Brexit, joins us now.
:22:26. > :22:30.He has been listening to Nicky Morgan. Let us go back to the
:22:31. > :22:37.beginning, as we did with Nicky Morgan, Boris Johnson's read Russ,
:22:38. > :22:43.the promise of ?350 million per week for the health service. -- the red
:22:44. > :22:49.bus. When is it happening? I was invited onto your programme to deal
:22:50. > :22:53.with Labour's conditions or tests. This is not quite the interview you
:22:54. > :22:58.told me you were wanting me to produce. I would be happy to discuss
:22:59. > :23:02.Labour's tests. They tend to be the policies of the Government and
:23:03. > :23:07.perfectly sensible. I do not know what you were brought on to discuss
:23:08. > :23:11.but actually we want to discuss what Open Britain has talked about today
:23:12. > :23:16.with Nicky Morgan. I am very happy to talk about why we will be much
:23:17. > :23:21.better off out of the EU. We did that in the referendum campaign and
:23:22. > :23:26.on the money I myself, through the Vote Leave auspices, launched a
:23:27. > :23:30.possible budget that could be delivered once we have taken back
:23:31. > :23:34.control of our money. The net contributions we currently have to
:23:35. > :23:38.pay to Europe and do not get back, primarily on health but also social
:23:39. > :23:43.care and one or two others, that was a document which Vote Leave put out
:23:44. > :23:49.and I hope the Chancellor will look kindly on that. You agree with Nicky
:23:50. > :23:53.Morgan? It was about taking back control. You would like to see the
:23:54. > :23:59.Government meet that obligation? It is not an obligation. The decision
:24:00. > :24:02.was to spend our own money on our own priorities and I look forward to
:24:03. > :24:06.a Conservative government being able to do that once we have completed
:24:07. > :24:09.our exit from the EU. Of course there will be more money to spend on
:24:10. > :24:14.our priorities because we will not be making the big net contribution
:24:15. > :24:19.to the EU. A lot of people were persuaded by what was seen as a
:24:20. > :24:23.pledge by many voters for ?350 million to be spent on the NHS a
:24:24. > :24:27.week. They voted to take back control and for Parliament to decide
:24:28. > :24:33.how to spend our money on our priorities. The actual sum of money
:24:34. > :24:37.was deeply disputed in the campaign because the bus had the gross figure
:24:38. > :24:42.on it, my budget happened to spend the net figure. Immigration, would
:24:43. > :24:47.you agree most leave voters were probably under the impression that
:24:48. > :24:53.if leave won immigration would fall? I think most voters who voted to
:24:54. > :24:59.leave recognised that once we take back control, we can have migration
:25:00. > :25:02.policy which Parliament wants, which government puts through Parliament,
:25:03. > :25:07.which may well reduce the numbers. That is what the Conservatives
:25:08. > :25:11.offered to do in the 2010 and 2015 election. It was a popular promise
:25:12. > :25:15.which helped to elect us and it has proved extremely difficult to do,
:25:16. > :25:18.partly because we are still in the EU and they prevent us controlling
:25:19. > :25:23.about half of the migration coming into the country. I think people
:25:24. > :25:26.will want the Government when we have the powers to be more
:25:27. > :25:30.restrictive. I do not think people thought that overnight migration
:25:31. > :25:36.would stop. A lot of us went to great lengths that we wish to be
:25:37. > :25:41.open to talent. The Government has rightly said they want a Britain
:25:42. > :25:46.open to talent. They want to make some reduction in those coming in
:25:47. > :25:51.speculatively to take jobs at the low end of the pay scale. What do
:25:52. > :25:56.you make of David Davis last night conceding migration might have to
:25:57. > :26:01.rise post Brexit? That is a debate to hold as soon as we have the power
:26:02. > :26:06.to run our borders in the right way. As I say, the essence of the
:26:07. > :26:09.campaign, a lot of people wanted Britain to make that decision, but
:26:10. > :26:13.most voters were quite realistic, they do not think we will move to
:26:14. > :26:20.know migration and it would not be sensible. No migration is different
:26:21. > :26:23.from lower migration. Lower migration is that aim of the present
:26:24. > :26:27.government and it has more chance of succeeding with that once we have
:26:28. > :26:31.taken back control of the borders. It has certainly failed at the
:26:32. > :26:34.moment. The official line from Michael Gove and Boris Johnson was
:26:35. > :26:38.that we would leave the single market but we would enjoy full and
:26:39. > :26:43.free access to the single market. Do you think it is still true? That is
:26:44. > :26:46.quite possible. It would be the rational and sensible thing of our
:26:47. > :26:51.partners on the continent. The. Why would they give us full and free
:26:52. > :26:55.access as we had as members of the single market if we were to leave?
:26:56. > :27:00.They need full and free access to our market. They sell many more
:27:01. > :27:04.products that could attract quite high tariffs if we go over to World
:27:05. > :27:10.Trade Organisation rules. I take the view that our partners are broadly
:27:11. > :27:14.sensible people, decent people, they will see their own interests and
:27:15. > :27:19.come around to the view they should not impose tariffs on our trade. I
:27:20. > :27:25.maybe wrong. If they wish to damage themselves, of we will trade under
:27:26. > :27:28.WTO terms and that will be fine for the UK, it is how we do trade with
:27:29. > :27:34.the rest of the world at the moment. Nicky Morgan? I am speechless about
:27:35. > :27:41.the fact that someone like John Redwood says it is fine to crash out
:27:42. > :27:47.on WTO. Many people have said it is not fine. It leaves businesses in
:27:48. > :27:53.total state of limbo. It would be very... If we want to have a costly
:27:54. > :27:57.Brexit, the most costly, crashing out on WTO, it is irresponsible of
:27:58. > :28:04.people like John Redwood to think it is OK. Is it looking optimistic to
:28:05. > :28:08.further opportunities outside of the EU or irresponsible? This is a
:28:09. > :28:14.negotiation that starts tomorrow, if you compare it to a football pitch,
:28:15. > :28:18.you start at your goal and start in the centre. If you start in the
:28:19. > :28:21.centre, you will lose. Is it possible to have full and free
:28:22. > :28:27.access to the single market when we are outside it? It will change, no
:28:28. > :28:32.question. What we would hope is that there will be a balance because, as
:28:33. > :28:36.John Redwood said, there is a significant trade flow into the UK,
:28:37. > :28:42.the UK is a very attractive market for a lot of EU companies. We buy a
:28:43. > :28:49.lot of very high value products. They want to keep selling them.
:28:50. > :28:53.There has to be some quid pro quo. Before we let you go, let us have a
:28:54. > :29:01.quick look at the front page of the Daily Mail today. It has focused on
:29:02. > :29:07.the legs of Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon. An accompanying article by
:29:08. > :29:11.Sarah Vine. A barrage of criticism about that focus, rather than on the
:29:12. > :29:15.discussions between them on the independence referendum. Responding
:29:16. > :29:26.to Sarah Vine's article, Nicky Morgan tweeted... We contacted Sarah
:29:27. > :29:31.Vine this morning and she told us it was just Twitter chitchat but it is
:29:32. > :29:37.always nice to see that a story has legs. That made you laugh.
:29:38. > :29:43.The whole thing is so unbelievably... I'm lost for words.
:29:44. > :29:50.I can't believe that in the 21st century we are seriously talking
:29:51. > :29:55.about two female politicians' legs. The Mail has got what it wanted.
:29:56. > :30:01.It's deliberately provocative, and I stand by that. I understand they
:30:02. > :30:05.have changed their strapline for the second edition, so I think even they
:30:06. > :30:11.agree that it was a step too far. Do you agree with Nikki Morgan or Sarah
:30:12. > :30:15.Vine? I agree with Nikki. I think it's crass and it takes the focus of
:30:16. > :30:18.what is a very, very critical issue. Thank you.
:30:19. > :30:20.This afternoon, the Scottish Parliament will restart its debate
:30:21. > :30:23.on the SNP's plan to hold a second referendum on independence.
:30:24. > :30:25.MSPs were debating the issue last Wednesday afternoon,
:30:26. > :30:26.but the session was suspended after the terror
:30:27. > :30:33.Our correspondent, Lorna Gordon, joins us from Edinburgh.
:30:34. > :30:40.The First Minister and the SNP will win this motion with the support of
:30:41. > :30:44.the greens. But as yesterday's meeting showed, there is no appetite
:30:45. > :30:49.for this referendum while Brexit negotiations are going on. What does
:30:50. > :30:54.Nicola Sturgeon do next? I think the SNP would dispute that common that
:30:55. > :30:57.there is no appetite while Brexit negotiations go on. That is
:30:58. > :30:59.certainly what the Conservatives in the parliament here argue. That is
:31:00. > :31:04.what Labour and the Liberal Democrats argue. That is the line
:31:05. > :31:12.being taken by Theresa May, the Prime Minister. Early polling would
:31:13. > :31:15.suggest there is less of an appetite for a referendum immediately, but
:31:16. > :31:19.that hasn't really been a great amount of polling since Nicola
:31:20. > :31:23.Sturgeon made her comments are a couple of weeks ago. And certainly
:31:24. > :31:29.polling, whilst Sarah Storey majority in favour of independence,
:31:30. > :31:35.the country is almost pretty evenly split on the issue itself. -- whilst
:31:36. > :31:38.there is certainly a majority in favour of independence. This
:31:39. > :31:43.government motion is calling for a section 30 order and is almost
:31:44. > :31:47.certain to pass. The SNP, along with the Greens, will have a comfortable
:31:48. > :31:52.majority. There is a small protest of pro-independence supporters
:31:53. > :31:57.outside at the moment, showing their support. The timing of it all, well,
:31:58. > :32:00.it'll start at two o'clock. Nicola Sturgeon will give opening comments
:32:01. > :32:06.lasting about 80 minutes in this debate as it gets underway. -- 18
:32:07. > :32:12.minutes. Closing speeches. To round 4:40. Then there is a procedural
:32:13. > :32:18.point where all the opposition motions are voted on. That will
:32:19. > :32:21.start around five o'clock. The key motion, which will either be amended
:32:22. > :32:27.by the Greens or the Government motion itself, it will, in all
:32:28. > :32:31.likelihood, pass, moving to the critical point which is when the
:32:32. > :32:34.Scottish Government, Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister, will
:32:35. > :32:38.write to the UK Government formally requesting the transfer of powers to
:32:39. > :32:43.call a section 30, calling referendum under section 30 of the
:32:44. > :32:47.Scotland Act, in effect setting out how they hope to fulfil the mandate
:32:48. > :32:51.of the Scottish parliament here. The SNP would argue all of that pulling
:32:52. > :32:56.aside, that they have a mandate here by being the largest party, by being
:32:57. > :32:59.the Government. And they would argue that they are doing what they
:33:00. > :33:03.believe is right to represent the citizens here in Scotland. Theresa
:33:04. > :33:06.May continues to say she's not going to grant an independence referendum
:33:07. > :33:11.during the Brexit negotiations, would Nicola Sturgeon be tempted to
:33:12. > :33:17.hold an unofficial referendum without the consult of Westminster?
:33:18. > :33:22.It's a tricky one, isn't it? I think the mood's music suggests that that
:33:23. > :33:27.is unlikely. The other option that has been muted is that she might
:33:28. > :33:32.call a snap election. That, too, appears to have been ruled out. It's
:33:33. > :33:35.hard to see where this goes next. You have two very strong leaders
:33:36. > :33:39.here who are cordial, very businesslike in their dealings with
:33:40. > :33:45.each other. But that did appear to be a frosty meeting yesterday. There
:33:46. > :33:47.was no handshake for the camera. They're very strong personalities
:33:48. > :33:54.and they have positions that are very apart. Theresa May says no
:33:55. > :33:57.referendum at this time, and of course at this moment Westminster
:33:58. > :34:03.holds all the cards. They are the ones who legislate on this issue to
:34:04. > :34:04.allow Scotland to hold a referendum if that motion was passed this
:34:05. > :34:14.afternoon. Thank you very much. What is your view, Tom, on whether
:34:15. > :34:17.Theresa -- on whether Nicola Sturgeon should be able to have a
:34:18. > :34:22.second referendum? I think ultimately that is for the people of
:34:23. > :34:28.Scotland. If there is a majority, I would they support it. At the polls
:34:29. > :34:32.suggest that the case at the moment. If they decide that there were they
:34:33. > :34:35.want to go, we have a big operation in Scotland, then we will manage our
:34:36. > :34:40.business accordingly. She will say that she has got a mandate to do it,
:34:41. > :34:43.even if the polls say they don't want to have another referendum now.
:34:44. > :34:49.They might do in a couple of years' time. What do you think of the logic
:34:50. > :34:53.of Theresa May, conducting Brexit negotiations, but stopping Scotland
:34:54. > :34:57.its own independence referendum? I can see there's a logic that says
:34:58. > :35:00.the reason for asking for another referendum now is because the
:35:01. > :35:04.Brexit. Otherwise I think we were told this wouldn't happen for a
:35:05. > :35:09.generation. So Brexit is because there is a strong argument seemed
:35:10. > :35:13.you can't debate what a post-Brexit world is going to look like until
:35:14. > :35:16.you get post Brexit. So there is a strong argument to say let's wait
:35:17. > :35:19.and see what the deal looks like. Do you think people have changed their
:35:20. > :35:25.mind, those who voted for independence last time and those who
:35:26. > :35:29.wanted to remain? Anecdotally, has been issued since Brexit? I don't
:35:30. > :35:32.detected. The country was that pretty much down the middle. I don't
:35:33. > :35:36.think things have changed that much. All right, we will leave it there.
:35:37. > :35:38.The contest to be the next general secretary of Unite,
:35:39. > :35:41.the UK's biggest trade union, gets under way in earnest
:35:42. > :35:43.this week as ballot papers are being sent to members.
:35:44. > :35:46.It's getting a lot more attention than the average union election,
:35:47. > :35:49.because it's widely seen as a proxy battle between the left and right
:35:50. > :35:52.The winner will be announced at the end of April.
:35:53. > :35:54.The incumbent general secretary, Len McCluskey,
:35:55. > :35:58.It's thought that a win for him would be a boost for Jeremy Corbyn.
:35:59. > :36:00.However, Mr McCluskey seemed to qualify his support
:36:01. > :36:03.for Mr Corbyn at the weekend, saying that the Labour leader only
:36:04. > :36:06.had "15 months or so" to break through in opinion polls.
:36:07. > :36:12.The main challenger is thought to be Gerard Coyne.
:36:13. > :36:14.A win for him would be welcomed by centrist Labour MPs.
:36:15. > :36:17.He's accused Len McCluskey of "messing around in Westminster
:36:18. > :36:20.politics" rather than focusing on the concerns of union members.
:36:21. > :36:23.The third man in the race is Ian Allinson.
:36:24. > :36:25.He describes himself as a "grassroots socialist candidate".
:36:26. > :36:28.He says his values are more in tune with Jeremy Corbyn's than either
:36:29. > :36:35.Gerard Coyne appeared on this programme earlier in the year
:36:36. > :36:37.and Len McCluskey has so far declined our invitations,
:36:38. > :36:54.You know how to get hold of us! Welcome to the programme, Ian. The
:36:55. > :36:58.other two candidates in this race, Len McCluskey and Gerard Coyne, are
:36:59. > :37:02.seen as the frontrunners. Do you think you have any chance?
:37:03. > :37:05.Absolutely. Members want to see a shake-up in the union. Most of us
:37:06. > :37:10.have the experience of seeing employers asking us to work longer
:37:11. > :37:12.and harder for less. Of seeing pressure on jobs, pay and
:37:13. > :37:17.conditions, public services and our rights. They want to see a stronger
:37:18. > :37:21.union fighting back against that. And what is wrong with Len
:37:22. > :37:25.McCluskey? You're missing too many opportunities. There's a big gap
:37:26. > :37:30.between the union with got and the union we need. I thought the
:37:31. > :37:39.campaign -- I thought the campaign on workers' rights was not good.
:37:40. > :37:43.Yesterday we had to report ourselves to the police before we could have a
:37:44. > :37:46.picket. It's ridiculous. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn and his
:37:47. > :37:50.leadership team didn't do enough to fight that bill? I don't think the
:37:51. > :37:54.problem was simply a Parliamentary level. I think we needed a
:37:55. > :37:57.grassroots campaign and we focus on parliament, when you have a Tory
:37:58. > :38:00.majority, was never going to deliver the win we focus on Parliament, when
:38:01. > :38:05.you have a Tory majority, was never going to deliver the wind needed.
:38:06. > :38:08.This contest has been seen as a proxy war between the
:38:09. > :38:11.representatives of the Labour Party. Where do you stand on that issue? I
:38:12. > :38:15.think Gerard Coyne has been linking up with people like Tom Watson to
:38:16. > :38:24.attack. Making out, for example, that Len McCluskey could affiliate
:38:25. > :38:29.Unite to Momentum. Is a ridiculous? It's not a decision for a general
:38:30. > :38:34.secretary. Tom Watson has said it a secret plan. He said that because of
:38:35. > :38:39.a key figure in Momentum he said Unite would affiliate to Momentum,
:38:40. > :38:44.rather than the Labour Party. Is to anyone more than it is up to us
:38:45. > :38:47.frontrunners. It would be up to be Unite conference or executive. What
:38:48. > :38:52.Tom Watson is trying to do is boost Gerard Coyne's chances. While he
:38:53. > :38:55.says he wants to spend less time in Westminster politics, he is the one
:38:56. > :38:59.spending all his time plotting with the right wing of the Labour Party
:39:00. > :39:05.and ignoring the issues that are of concern to members who want to focus
:39:06. > :39:08.on the issues of concern to them. Do you think there is a plot on the
:39:09. > :39:14.other side by Tom Watson and Gerard Coyne to try and discredit Unite, as
:39:15. > :39:19.it stands, and its links to Momentum? I think this has been
:39:20. > :39:23.plot, after plot, after plot to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. If we had any
:39:24. > :39:26.leader breaking from the consensus we have had around cuts and
:39:27. > :39:30.austerity, there would be facing massive opposition from the bulk of
:39:31. > :39:35.the media, which is hostile to the kinds of policies Unite stands for.
:39:36. > :39:38.And also the backbenches of the Labour Party, full of people who
:39:39. > :39:41.couldn't even bring themselves to vote against the Tory welfare bill.
:39:42. > :39:46.Of course he is facing opposition and plots. They will be backed by
:39:47. > :39:50.the dreadful polls for Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party at the moment.
:39:51. > :39:54.And even the most recent one yesterday shows the British public
:39:55. > :40:00.give a higher poll approval rating at 80% family duty Jeremy Corbyn. I
:40:01. > :40:04.don't think it's about individuals. Whoever was Labour leader would be
:40:05. > :40:07.facing those kind of pressures. That's why I've been arguing that
:40:08. > :40:12.the kind of support that Unite has been given just isn't good enough.
:40:13. > :40:15.Len McCluskey has undermined Jeremy Corbyn on key policy issues such as
:40:16. > :40:20.Trident and free movement of labour. I don't think that's been helpful
:40:21. > :40:23.and I don't think his comments about being given a 15 month a helpful. He
:40:24. > :40:30.should be signing up for the policies that unite champions and
:40:31. > :40:33.Unite members need, whoever we members need. You don't think you
:40:34. > :40:36.should be given any timescale in terms of making a breakthrough in
:40:37. > :40:40.the opinion polls? I don't think we're going to back the shift the
:40:41. > :40:48.opinion polls by backing this or that leader. New Labour have lost
:40:49. > :40:53.the last two elections. Not only has Labour's polling not improved, it's
:40:54. > :40:57.also annihilated himself. The idea of turning the clock back to that
:40:58. > :41:03.new Labour approach is just pie in the sky. You are backed by Socialist
:41:04. > :41:08.workers. Would you like to ally Unite closer to them and the Labour
:41:09. > :41:14.Party? No. You wouldn't? No. Even though they are supporting you and
:41:15. > :41:18.would want you to stand? My position is that Unite should be supporting
:41:19. > :41:22.Jeremy Corbyn and the left of the Labour Party in trying to pursue the
:41:23. > :41:27.policies Unite stands for, because that is what this is about. It is
:41:28. > :41:33.about Unite's issues and. This conference has got a lot more media
:41:34. > :41:38.coverage because of being by some people as a proxy war the two sides
:41:39. > :41:42.of the Labour Party. Ian Allinson said that neither party are
:41:43. > :41:45.supporting in the way that -- neither candidate is supporting in
:41:46. > :41:48.the way that they should be stopped by far be it for me to give advice
:41:49. > :41:52.to be members of Unite because they will have their own view. It is the
:41:53. > :41:58.biggest trade union, of course. And it is our biggest union. Our biggest
:41:59. > :42:02.interest is that Unite is led by people interested in the membership
:42:03. > :42:07.of Unite, because they will stand up for the rights of people in Unite.
:42:08. > :42:11.That is what we think is the most important thing. But it's not our
:42:12. > :42:16.decision in any way, shape or form. Was about Ian Allison's claim that
:42:17. > :42:18.as the new general secretary of Unite the should be full backing
:42:19. > :42:24.behind Jeremy Corbyn as the Labour leader? I think this is less about
:42:25. > :42:32.politics and more about the rights of workers and members of Unite.
:42:33. > :42:35.That should be the paramount issue. You have said that your policies are
:42:36. > :42:37.more in line with Jeremy Corbyn on issues like Trident and free
:42:38. > :42:47.movement. What did you mean, exactly? I think it was one that Len
:42:48. > :42:50.McCluskey argued in favour of spending the 205 billion estimated
:42:51. > :42:53.cost on Trident. It's hard to imagine how you can spend that money
:42:54. > :42:59.and not make more jobs will stop that was the basis of the argument.
:43:00. > :43:05.What about free movement? We could diversify into other activities, for
:43:06. > :43:09.example, renewable energies. On free movement, I think it's quite a
:43:10. > :43:12.simple argument. It is a worthless' right argument. If we have a
:43:13. > :43:18.situation where people are told where they could level work, it's
:43:19. > :43:26.the people who are forced to work illegally. We have more than issues
:43:27. > :43:30.like -- help -- we have more issues like the Morecambe Bay pickers. You
:43:31. > :43:33.have more workers, irrespective of where they have come from, and the
:43:34. > :43:38.idea that we protect wages by excluding people from the labour
:43:39. > :43:41.market is as misguided as them from people try to exclude women from the
:43:42. > :43:46.labour market. So you didn't agree with Jeremy Corbyn's change of mind
:43:47. > :43:50.in calling for reform. I think there should be freedom of reform,
:43:51. > :43:52.absolutely. Thank you very much for coming in.
:43:53. > :43:55.Now, our guest of the day, Tom Crotty, is a director of Ineos
:43:56. > :43:58.which, amongst other things, is a major player in the emerging
:43:59. > :44:02.But fracking for shale gas is, of course, controversial.
:44:03. > :44:04.According to its proponents, it will create jobs,
:44:05. > :44:06.boost economic growth and bring down energy bills.
:44:07. > :44:08.But according to critics, it will damage the local environment,
:44:09. > :44:10.lead to more carbon emissions and distract us from focusing
:44:11. > :44:14.The Government has been enthusiastic about fracking for years, but
:44:15. > :44:16.despite that, the industry hasn't really taken off just yet.
:44:17. > :44:19.Let's take a look at George Osborne making the case for fracking
:44:20. > :44:25.We will have the proper environmental standards around
:44:26. > :44:30.But I think for this country to turn its back on one
:44:31. > :44:33.of its great natural resources, which other countries are using,
:44:34. > :44:35.would be to basically condemn our country to higher energy
:44:36. > :44:40.Frankly, I don't want to be part of a generation that says
:44:41. > :44:41.all the economic activity was happening somewhere else
:44:42. > :44:44.in the world, and wasn't happening in our country,
:44:45. > :44:45.and wasn't happening on our continent.
:44:46. > :44:47.So we should get off with the safe and environmentally
:44:48. > :45:01.protected exploration of our shale gas resources.
:45:02. > :45:06.The Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, is here.
:45:07. > :45:14.Just before I come to you, so much noise about fracking over the last
:45:15. > :45:18.few years, George Osborne and David Cameron were very keen supporters of
:45:19. > :45:24.it. Why has it not taken off? We are taking a cautious approach, we have
:45:25. > :45:27.been doing seismic testing, we are starting to do test drilling this
:45:28. > :45:31.year. We have two more years of scientific work before we are in a
:45:32. > :45:35.position to start doing it commercially because we are taking
:45:36. > :45:40.an extremely cautious approach. It has to be done safely and well. Or
:45:41. > :45:45.you have been blocked. Most people thought it would have started,
:45:46. > :45:52.rightly or wrongly. The licenses from the Government were only issued
:45:53. > :46:00.late last year. We have not had very long. Is that a relief? It is. The
:46:01. > :46:05.fracking industry is in all sorts of trouble. There are concerns about
:46:06. > :46:08.local environmental impacts. Until we are absolutely sure it is safe,
:46:09. > :46:14.we should not go ahead. At a global level, we know the fracking industry
:46:15. > :46:19.is part of the fossil fuel industry and we know 78% of shale gas has to
:46:20. > :46:23.stay in the ground if we are going to have any chance of meeting the
:46:24. > :46:28.climate change limit. It does not have any chance in our future and it
:46:29. > :46:31.is turning out to be more expensive than renewables. Do you accept it
:46:32. > :46:35.does not in the long term have any place in our future because we
:46:36. > :46:40.should be focusing on renewables are Mark no, I do not. I think we should
:46:41. > :46:44.focus on renewables and we are producing the building blocks for
:46:45. > :47:02.the renewable industry. We make turbine lubricants, raw materials
:47:03. > :47:02.for solar panels. But we have to have more gas as a bridge technology
:47:03. > :47:05.in this country, it is a long bridge, 30, 40, 50 years. In the UK,
:47:06. > :47:16.the gas will replace imported gas. It has higher CO2, the imported gas.
:47:17. > :47:23.We would also be able to eliminate coal. To argue that we do not need
:47:24. > :47:27.the gas on CO2 grounds is wrong. I do not buy that argument. The gas
:47:28. > :47:32.coming in is displacing other gas. The point is the fracking industry
:47:33. > :47:35.greatly underestimate the amount of leakages that are and it is of
:47:36. > :47:42.methane which is much more serious in terms of the climate effect than
:47:43. > :47:45.natural gas. We need to reduce our demand for energy altogether
:47:46. > :47:48.particularly by improving the quality of our housing. If
:47:49. > :47:53.environmental protections could be guaranteed, you said, you implied,
:47:54. > :47:57.fracking would be all right, if there could be guarantees and
:47:58. > :48:03.reassurances that any damage or impact would be limited and safe,
:48:04. > :48:07.then... I am not convinced. The more important argument is around climate
:48:08. > :48:11.change and the need to move beyond fossil fuels. Because renewables are
:48:12. > :48:15.free, they are becoming cheaper all the time, the fuel is free. In three
:48:16. > :48:21.years' time, renewables will be cheaper than fossil fuels and by
:48:22. > :48:25.2025, considerably cheaper. I do not think consumers should be made to
:48:26. > :48:28.pay and I do not think we should be subsidising fossil fuels to the tune
:48:29. > :48:34.of ?6 billion the year. The reality is we are massively subsidising
:48:35. > :48:40.renewables right now. That is the reality. At the moment, the issue
:48:41. > :48:45.for me is renewables are not able to do the job. We are getting less than
:48:46. > :48:50.15% of our power from renewables today and zero of our heat. 85% of
:48:51. > :48:57.homes in this country are heated by gas. You saying renewables are not
:48:58. > :49:07.subsidised? No, but they are new, they should be subsidised. Fossil
:49:08. > :49:12.fuels are subsidised because that of vested interests. It is still a low
:49:13. > :49:15.percentage of our actual... It is half the level of subsidy than
:49:16. > :49:24.fossil fuels. Most people would be shocked. I am shocked about that.
:49:25. > :49:28.The point about intermittency is an old point. We need demand of our
:49:29. > :49:34.energy supply and that is the direction in which renewables are
:49:35. > :49:37.able to provide what we need. Does fracking answer the question of
:49:38. > :49:48.weaning people off high energy consumption? That is the way forward
:49:49. > :49:51.and renewables fit that picture much Ativan fracking. People use energy
:49:52. > :49:54.regardless of its source in the same way. Demand management is the most
:49:55. > :49:58.effective way to reduce carbon emissions in the long one. It has to
:49:59. > :50:06.come first. It is by no means the only solution. If we are going to
:50:07. > :50:11.decarbonise because of agreements under the Paris agreement, fracking
:50:12. > :50:17.is still another few years down the line, you claim it would be a very
:50:18. > :50:20.long bridge, 30, 40 years, if we subsidise renewables even more at
:50:21. > :50:26.this stage, could we not move to it much quicker? The answer is, no. We
:50:27. > :50:31.do not have the capacity. We do not have the technology either. At the
:50:32. > :50:36.moment, we cannot store electricity in a meaningful way. We have not got
:50:37. > :50:41.the technology. When we get to the point where every window in our
:50:42. > :50:47.house is a solar panel, every wall is a battery. We are still tens of
:50:48. > :50:51.years away. Do you not accept that is the best way to make the
:50:52. > :50:56.transition? Fracking. If we do not have the technology to store energy,
:50:57. > :51:08.for the time being, fracking actually provides the bridge? -- I
:51:09. > :51:12.do not accept it. Can we store huge amounts of energy? Storage is
:51:13. > :51:17.improving rapidly. How much do we store? I have not got the figures.
:51:18. > :51:21.If we subsidise fracking and continue to have planning in favour
:51:22. > :51:26.of fracking and against wind power, if we subsidise an energy that is
:51:27. > :51:29.very unpopular, we are diverging away from the investment of
:51:30. > :51:33.renewables we need. You say planning is in favour of fracking but we have
:51:34. > :51:37.not seen fracking taking place, it cannot be that much in favour! The
:51:38. > :51:47.Government has tilted the playing field in favour of fracking. It is
:51:48. > :51:55.undermining wind power. Molly Scott Cato has the public on her side. 19%
:51:56. > :52:01.of people in favour of fracking, very low. It is low but it has
:52:02. > :52:06.changed in the polling that has been done for six, seven years, moving
:52:07. > :52:11.back in favour of fracking. By how much? By a very small amount. There
:52:12. > :52:16.is a huge amount of misinformation about the impact of fracking. One of
:52:17. > :52:19.the challenges we have is going into local communities, holding public
:52:20. > :52:24.meetings, saying, come along and find out the facts. We are finding
:52:25. > :52:27.we have people... We had a cancellation of a public meeting two
:52:28. > :52:30.weeks ago by a local community because they were being bombarded
:52:31. > :52:33.with abusive phone calls are threatening them that if they
:52:34. > :52:37.carried on the meeting and invited us along, there would be problems.
:52:38. > :52:42.That is not democracy, it is anarchy. It is a very divisive
:52:43. > :52:46.subject and that is because local communities do not want this dirty
:52:47. > :52:51.industry in their backyard. In Rotherham, there is a very strong
:52:52. > :52:55.protest against what Ineos is doing and this sort of industry divides
:52:56. > :52:58.communities compared to reunion was which can be owned by communities
:52:59. > :53:03.and bring social and environmental benefits as well as economic
:53:04. > :53:08.benefits -- compared to renewables. The benefits are massive for the
:53:09. > :53:13.local communities. Still divided at the end. Thank you for coming in. 30
:53:14. > :53:16.years old... That is not me unfortunately!
:53:17. > :53:19.Now, at 30 years old, it's frankly a bit past it.
:53:20. > :53:21.I'm talking, of course, about the old pound coin.
:53:22. > :53:23.Experts estimate one in 30 pound coins is fake.
:53:24. > :53:25.The Government announced three years ago it would introduce
:53:26. > :53:28.a new younger model, with a greater focus on making it
:53:29. > :53:32.Our Ellie has been looking at how your change is changing.
:53:33. > :53:35.I can tell the House that we will move to a new highly secure ?1 coin.
:53:36. > :53:43.Our new pound coin will blend the security
:53:44. > :53:45.features of the future with inspiration from our past.
:53:46. > :53:47.It was perhaps one of George Osborne's most
:53:48. > :53:52.He even got a schoolboy to design it.
:53:53. > :54:00.Two-toned, 12-sided, it's thinner, lighter and larger
:54:01. > :54:04.And they're going to put about 1.5 billion into
:54:05. > :54:11.The Royal Mint is currently making 3 million coins every day.
:54:12. > :54:14.And the switchover from the old coins to the
:54:15. > :54:26.This is the most secure coin in the world.
:54:27. > :54:29.It's got what we call over security features, the ones that you
:54:30. > :54:33.It's got a feature where if you look in one direction, you see
:54:34. > :54:37.If you look in another direction, you see another.
:54:38. > :54:40.And even the shape makes it more difficult to copy.
:54:41. > :54:44.Yeah, there's a secret feature that can only be recognised
:54:45. > :54:46.by certain vending machines, which is for verification.
:54:47. > :54:49.When these coins go back to the sorting banks,
:54:50. > :54:55.they can recognise what the fakes and forgeries are.
:54:56. > :54:57.And we expect none because this security feature is
:54:58. > :55:03.But it's caused some problems for parking
:55:04. > :55:06.meters, shopping trolleys and vending machines, which are all
:55:07. > :55:17.People in the market this morning were not all keen on
:55:18. > :55:20.I like the Crown, the silver in the middle.
:55:21. > :55:31.The coin is a coin, a pound is a pound.
:55:32. > :55:37.The first time I've seen one for real.
:55:38. > :55:49.They reckon a third of the ?1.3 billion worth of coins we have
:55:50. > :55:55.stashed away in various places in the UK are the old pound coins.
:55:56. > :56:00.You've got until October 15th to find them and spend them.
:56:01. > :56:03.And I'm joined now from Portcullis House
:56:04. > :56:04.by the Conservative MP, Sir David Amess,
:56:05. > :56:10.who raised concerns about the new pound in Parliament last month.
:56:11. > :56:17.What are you worried about? I am very worried the general public have
:56:18. > :56:21.not been given enough information that the coin will not be legal
:56:22. > :56:26.tender from October and I am worried local authorities are not prepared
:56:27. > :56:32.with car parking charges, supermarkets do not seem to have had
:56:33. > :56:36.the trolleys adapted, confectionery machines... It does not feel as if
:56:37. > :56:39.enough preparation has been done. I understand the need for change but I
:56:40. > :56:44.do not think the preparation has been done. How much longer would you
:56:45. > :56:47.like people to have been given? I would have liked some sort of
:56:48. > :56:53.dedicated public awareness programme on TV. There is something called a
:56:54. > :56:57.trial which one of my people has been a jury on and we are now on the
:56:58. > :57:02.28th of April when Philip Hammond goes to the trial to see whether it
:57:03. > :57:09.is properly goal-tender. We have got a month now to try to raise the
:57:10. > :57:14.profile. -- proper legal tender. Local businesses, I understand there
:57:15. > :57:17.is a big cost in changing the machines and I do not think there
:57:18. > :57:24.has been enough time and a brick awareness about this very big change
:57:25. > :57:29.-- public awareness. The Government says six months is quite a long
:57:30. > :57:34.time. Have you seen the coins? Do you like them? I quite like them. I
:57:35. > :57:39.do not link I will have as many holes in the lining of my suit
:57:40. > :57:44.jacket as I used to have. I am not an expert in designing a coin. After
:57:45. > :57:49.30 years, I understand we need to change these things. They are seen
:57:50. > :57:55.as easy to fake, the existing ones, the ones going out. Experts have
:57:56. > :58:00.designed it and it'll hopefully will do the job. It is the practicality,
:58:01. > :58:04.people struggling to make the vending machines work. It really
:58:05. > :58:11.does not feel as if enough work has been done. I will give you my little
:58:12. > :58:15.collection here of five new ?1 coins. How do they feel? I think
:58:16. > :58:23.they feel OK, they are quite attractive. Hold it up! Not that we
:58:24. > :58:28.will be able to see it! You cannot see the 12 sides. It is not a Dodig
:58:29. > :58:41.he. Because it has two sides, front and back, it is a kept Rebecca
:58:42. > :58:49.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:50. > :58:51.The question was, which political leader plans to introduce
:58:52. > :58:53.legislation that would legalise the recreational use of marijuana?
:58:54. > :58:55.Is it a North Korea's Kim Jong-Un, Donald Trump,
:58:56. > :58:57.Germany's Angela Merkel, or Canada's Justin Trudeau?
:58:58. > :59:03.Macro I would guess Justin Trudeau. That is it for today. You are right.
:59:04. > :59:05.Thank you to Tom Crotty for being my guest of the day. You can give me
:59:06. > :59:09.those coins back now!