:00:36. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.Labour promises to scrap Theresa May's Brexit plans
:00:43. > :00:45.and unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU residents if it
:00:46. > :00:50.The party's shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Stamer joins us live.
:00:51. > :00:53.Less than a year ago party loyalties were abandoned as MPs
:00:54. > :00:57.fought together to remain in the European Union.
:00:58. > :01:00.Today Remain-supporting Conservatives quit the anti-Brexit
:01:01. > :01:04.group Open Britain over plans to target Brexit-supporting
:01:05. > :01:09.Plaid Cymru launch their election campaign today with a pledge
:01:10. > :01:13.to protect Wales from a Conservative party intent on gaining powers
:01:14. > :01:19.We'll hear from their leader, Leanne Wood.
:01:20. > :01:25.Strict teachers can be annoying and some students find them
:01:26. > :01:29.annoying, but it's best to get it over with because sometimes
:01:30. > :01:40.when you're older and you progress, you will have bosses you don't like.
:01:41. > :01:44.And with us for the whole of the programme today,
:01:45. > :01:46.Sir Michael Wilshaw, the former chief inspector
:01:47. > :01:55.So it's exactly one week since Theresa May called the snap
:01:56. > :01:58.Are you feeling pumped up by the democratic
:01:59. > :02:07.I'm afraid I'm not. I like elections. It's not so long ago that
:02:08. > :02:09.we had an election. I can fully understand why the Prime Minister
:02:10. > :02:16.Theresa May wants to go to the country again. She's 24 points ahead
:02:17. > :02:21.in the opinion polls. FI was her I'd public want a huge majority but
:02:22. > :02:23.Italy in terms of what's going to happen. So you didn't buy her like
:02:24. > :02:29.it was about her opposition to Brexit? No, I think she wants a big
:02:30. > :02:35.majority. It's a fantastic time to go to the country. At a time when
:02:36. > :02:41.the polls in Wales show that the Conservatives are in the lead,
:02:42. > :02:45.amazing, and in Scotland, they are forecasting that the Tories will win
:02:46. > :02:50.ten seats. There has never been a better time. For our Prime Minister
:02:51. > :02:54.the Conservatives to go to the country. What is going to swing your
:02:55. > :02:59.vote? The issues on things like public services as Jeremy Corbyn
:03:00. > :03:03.says he will be campaigning on? I think it will be that. I will be
:03:04. > :03:07.interested in what the parties say about Europe because that will
:03:08. > :03:11.capture everyone's attention over the next two years. At the end of
:03:12. > :03:18.the day, I, like most other voters, will be interested in the whole
:03:19. > :03:26.issues of the health service, education, adult social care, the
:03:27. > :03:32.economy. You know, is the party united? The thing about the
:03:33. > :03:40.Conservatives, it's a united party where unfortunately the Labour Party
:03:41. > :03:43.is not united, with a rather weak leader. We will find out certainly
:03:44. > :03:45.on the subject of Brexit and education in this programme.
:03:46. > :03:49.The question for today is which politician has announced
:03:50. > :03:52.they are resigning from their party and will stand as an independent
:03:53. > :04:00.At the end of the show Michael will hopefully give us
:04:01. > :04:06.Labour's Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer has given a keynote
:04:07. > :04:10.speech this morning setting out the party's position on Brexit.
:04:11. > :04:14.This comes as party grandees like Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson
:04:15. > :04:16.have criticised the current leadership for not having
:04:17. > :04:21.sufficiently clear policies on Brexit.
:04:22. > :04:24.This is what Keir Starmer had to say.
:04:25. > :04:26.If elected in June, Labour would scrap the government's
:04:27. > :04:30.Brexit White Paper and replace it with a "new Brexit strategy".
:04:31. > :04:34.The new strategy would focus on "retaining the benefits
:04:35. > :04:36.of the Single Market and the Customs Union", in order
:04:37. > :04:43.A Labour government would also unilaterally guarantee the rights
:04:44. > :04:48.of EU nationals living in the first on their very first day in office.
:04:49. > :04:50.Labour would also drop the Great Repeal Bill.
:04:51. > :04:53.That's the government's planned legislation which aims to repeal
:04:54. > :04:55.the 1972 European Communities Act and also convert current
:04:56. > :05:04.Instead, Labour would bring forward a new EU Rights
:05:05. > :05:09.According to Keir Starmer, this bill would safeguard workers' rights
:05:10. > :05:22.Keir Starmer is here with us now. Welcome to the Daily Politics. There
:05:23. > :05:27.seems to be a lot of talk about process in your speech today. Would
:05:28. > :05:29.it be fair to say you and the government have virtually the same
:05:30. > :05:35.policy objectives when it comes to Brexit? No, we are putting jobs and
:05:36. > :05:40.the economy first. Prime Minister putting immigration first and that
:05:41. > :05:43.is a really fundamental difference. I've never underplayed the
:05:44. > :05:47.importance of immigration. I've never suggested the referendum
:05:48. > :05:51.didn't have the question of freedom of movement as a major factor. I've
:05:52. > :05:55.never suggest that it does not need to change but it's a very old
:05:56. > :05:59.situation indeed when immigration is elevated to a priority above the
:06:00. > :06:05.economy and drives the prime ministers approach. That is tone and
:06:06. > :06:09.emphasis. In terms of policies, what are the differences because if we
:06:10. > :06:12.look at your decision to go unilaterally guaranteeing the rights
:06:13. > :06:17.of EU citizens, the government has said that is going to be a priority.
:06:18. > :06:21.They back it wholeheartedly so the end result will be both parties
:06:22. > :06:25.guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens who are in the UK. There's
:06:26. > :06:27.a fundamental difference between unilaterally making the decision on
:06:28. > :06:31.day one that's what you're going to do I'm saying we will have it as a
:06:32. > :06:34.priority in the negotiations. What upright minister can't do is give
:06:35. > :06:39.any guarantee this will be resolved until two years is up. Are you
:06:40. > :06:46.suggesting people will be deported? Of course not. In the end, the
:06:47. > :06:48.policy objective is the same. It doesn't help to undermine the
:06:49. > :06:53.genuine concern millions of people have in this country, we've seen in
:06:54. > :06:58.tears etc, simply to revert to, are you saying they are going to be
:06:59. > :07:01.deported? Of course not. What is my state is going to be, people say
:07:02. > :07:08.pretty much what do I'd do with my children? What are my rights? They
:07:09. > :07:12.are genuinely concerned about it. William unilaterally take this
:07:13. > :07:17.action from day one or put it in the mix of no guarantee it will be
:07:18. > :07:20.resolved for two years? When you say there was no guarantee, the
:07:21. > :07:25.implication is that those rights of EU citizens to remain in the UK with
:07:26. > :07:29.the same sorts of life that they have now will not happen under a
:07:30. > :07:33.Tory government in Brexit negotiations when they've made it
:07:34. > :07:36.very, very clear that this is going to be a priority in the negotiations
:07:37. > :07:39.so it may not be date one but it could be two months down the line
:07:40. > :07:45.and the end result will be the same as yours. Access the Prime Minister
:07:46. > :07:51.and David Davis are committed to protecting the rights of EU citizens
:07:52. > :07:57.but -- I accept. To underestimate the concern about when this will be
:07:58. > :08:00.resolved, and when we unilaterally take it, it's a policy decision open
:08:01. > :08:04.to the Prime Minister and she has refused to take it today and she has
:08:05. > :08:08.not said she would do it. Just let me complete on this because people
:08:09. > :08:13.will say, you're not concerned about UK citizens and the EU but that's
:08:14. > :08:19.completely not true. They might not reciprocate of course. I genuinely
:08:20. > :08:22.think, from very many conversations I've had across Europe, if we took
:08:23. > :08:27.that unilateral action it would be the quickest way to solve this
:08:28. > :08:30.impasse over all. Lets look at another policy objective you
:08:31. > :08:35.outlined in your speech. You will scrap the government's Brexit White
:08:36. > :08:39.Paper and focus on the time the benefits of the single market and
:08:40. > :08:42.the customs union. How is that different to the government's
:08:43. > :08:46.negotiating objective which David Davis said as for frictionless trade
:08:47. > :08:51.and having exactly the same benefits as we currently have? What we are
:08:52. > :08:55.saying is businesses must be able to succeed in the future in the way
:08:56. > :08:59.they have succeeded in the past. The question is what sort of approach
:09:00. > :09:03.are you going to take to achieve that. The government, because it put
:09:04. > :09:07.immigration as its number one priority, is to take virtually all
:09:08. > :09:11.other options offer table, so any arrangement with a single market is
:09:12. > :09:15.off the table, any arrangement with customs union is offer table. Use
:09:16. > :09:20.they want the UK to be in single market? The European Court of
:09:21. > :09:25.Justice, even disputes have to be resolved, it off the table. Even
:09:26. > :09:28.Europol, agencies I've worked with, which to effective read in
:09:29. > :09:34.countering crime, they are all off the priorities are wrong. We are
:09:35. > :09:40.saying have the right priorities, leave options on the table. I'm not
:09:41. > :09:44.pretending that unperformed single market membership can go
:09:45. > :09:50.hand-in-hand with my acceptance freedom of movement has to change.
:09:51. > :09:52.That's very important because you said you haven't underestimated
:09:53. > :09:58.immigration was an important part of many people, of the whole debate and
:09:59. > :10:02.the vote, so does freedom of movement and in your mind under
:10:03. > :10:07.Labour's policy on Brexit? Yes, but it doesn't mean no movement. It's an
:10:08. > :10:11.EU rule and we said it has to come to an end. The status quo has to
:10:12. > :10:17.rent. You said it had to change in your speech. Immigration rules have
:10:18. > :10:20.to change. I have said I don't know how many times in the last six
:10:21. > :10:24.months freedom of movement is coming to an end and the status quo is
:10:25. > :10:29.unsustainable. I have said over and over again. Why is that message not
:10:30. > :10:31.getting across because people aren't completely clear on what he was
:10:32. > :10:38.saying and you barely mentioned it in speech today. You say rules have
:10:39. > :10:41.to change, and who did not reiterate that, in your mind, freedom of
:10:42. > :10:49.movement in terms of EU is coming to an end. Because it's obvious. The
:10:50. > :10:55.rules must change. I think it's not fair to say it's not consistent that
:10:56. > :11:00.I've not been saying it. You have been saying it but not everybody in
:11:01. > :11:04.the Labour Party. Let's listen to Peter Mandelson, a senior figure
:11:05. > :11:05.from the Labour Party who said this in response to questions about
:11:06. > :11:07.Labour Party policy on Brexit. What is the Labour
:11:08. > :11:09.position on Brexit now? I think you need to wait
:11:10. > :11:13.for the manifesto. The problem for the Labour
:11:14. > :11:15.Party in this election And that is that they are not,
:11:16. > :11:19.I'm afraid, differentiating their position and their policy
:11:20. > :11:23.sufficiently from the Government, or haven't done so up until now,
:11:24. > :11:27.which they needed to do if they were going to
:11:28. > :11:40.offer the voters... A clear choice. That along the lines
:11:41. > :11:43.of clear policy differences between the government. Accept the process
:11:44. > :11:48.may be different in terms of getting to those objectives you have
:11:49. > :11:50.outlined, but Homer, but in terms of policy objectives, but they are
:11:51. > :11:54.pretty much the same. Does the Labour Party want to stay in the
:11:55. > :11:58.customs union? You battled through five or six things we said we will
:11:59. > :12:01.do pretty much immediately which are a change of position for the
:12:02. > :12:05.government so to say they are precisely the same as contrary to
:12:06. > :12:09.the Danube said at the top of the programme. So far as the customs
:12:10. > :12:13.union is concerned, if you are in the manufacturing sector, there is
:12:14. > :12:16.concern about coming out of the customs union. The government said
:12:17. > :12:20.we are not prepared to contemplate saying in it or talking about
:12:21. > :12:24.amending it. We say leave it on the table. Maybe we can't stay in it and
:12:25. > :12:29.a judgment call will have to be made, but what upright Minister has
:12:30. > :12:32.done is take the options offer table before we started. Reads a sensible
:12:33. > :12:36.in negotiations to give yourself maximum flexibility, to be smart
:12:37. > :12:42.about how you negotiate. We have ended up with a rigid and reckless
:12:43. > :12:47.approach where viable options have just been swept off the table and
:12:48. > :12:50.are simply not there even to be discussed any more. You talk about
:12:51. > :12:55.the customs union. If we don't leave it, what would happen to the ability
:12:56. > :13:01.to do free trade deals? I appreciate that but we need to focus on EU
:13:02. > :13:04.trade deal, 44% of the deal, and get the right arrangements. We need to
:13:05. > :13:07.look at the customs union as well and see at the end of the exercise
:13:08. > :13:11.where we are on those issues but what the government has done is say,
:13:12. > :13:14.we will take the customs union offer table altogether, judgment call when
:13:15. > :13:19.we know what you'll be done with the EU as far as EU trade is concerned.
:13:20. > :13:23.I'm not suggesting that nothing can ever change or should change. What I
:13:24. > :13:26.am saying is if you take options offer table you can't even come back
:13:27. > :13:30.to them in two years when it makes good sense but that would be the
:13:31. > :13:33.position you ended up in. In an election the messages have to be
:13:34. > :13:38.clear and it accommodated process. Having a more nuanced message is
:13:39. > :13:43.more difficult to get across to voters in an election. It's very
:13:44. > :13:48.easy to get across the idea that you're taking all the options offer
:13:49. > :13:51.table. What best guarantees the right outcome for our country
:13:52. > :13:55.because that matters much more than anything else? Let's look at
:13:56. > :13:58.workers' rights. You want to replace the Great Repeal Bill with a new EU
:13:59. > :14:03.rights and protections built. What's the difference apart from the title?
:14:04. > :14:08.First, the government has said it will protect workplace rights and
:14:09. > :14:10.access that. It's been loose about consumer rights and environmental
:14:11. > :14:16.rights and said it won't accept human rights. They said human
:14:17. > :14:23.rights? The unprotected? Yes, that won't be in their bill. We have to
:14:24. > :14:28.look at if there's a Tory government return, with a majority, the
:14:29. > :14:33.temptation to rollback on this and not fully implement these rights
:14:34. > :14:37.will be too great. You don't believe them which is fine for the B don't
:14:38. > :14:40.believe the Tories will commit, but what is the difference between the
:14:41. > :14:43.Great Repeal Bill which is going to take all this EU law and then there
:14:44. > :14:46.will be decision further down the line as to which bits of legislation
:14:47. > :14:49.they will keep and your EU rights and protections built if you take
:14:50. > :14:56.what the government at face value? This is a clear entrenchment of the
:14:57. > :14:59.full list of rights along with the means of enforcing them in the
:15:00. > :15:06.current proposals and it is a guarantee against rolling back and
:15:07. > :15:11.that guarantee will not be available after the election if there's a Tory
:15:12. > :15:15.majority. Priti Patel and the Cabinet have campaigned on a
:15:16. > :15:18.referendum she wanted a half workplace rights, halve social
:15:19. > :15:22.rights, people in the Cabinet now. We are right to say there is the
:15:23. > :15:25.point of distinction and we want to introduce legislation which would
:15:26. > :15:27.entrench these rights and it's a fundamental difference. Thank you
:15:28. > :15:37.very much. Speaking earlier this morning,
:15:38. > :15:39.Work and Pensions Secretary Damian It's completely incoherent,
:15:40. > :15:43.the Labour position. They're saying that they wouldn't
:15:44. > :15:49.accept no deal, which means that they would have to go
:15:50. > :15:53.into these negotiations saying - whatever happens we will do
:15:54. > :15:56.a deal at the end of it. That's not a strong negotiating
:15:57. > :16:00.stance at the start of what will be a long and complex negotiation
:16:01. > :16:01.and it's characteristic of the weak and incoherent leadership that
:16:02. > :16:05.Jeremy Corbyn provides the Labour Party and indeed
:16:06. > :16:07.the coalition of chaos that lies behind this with the other parties,
:16:08. > :16:12.that they can't come up with a basic negotiating plan that
:16:13. > :16:15.will stand any scrutiny. We're joined now by the Conservative
:16:16. > :16:18.MP Dominic Raab and by Alistair Carmichael for the Liberal
:16:19. > :16:22.Democrats. Welcome, gentlemen. Before I come to
:16:23. > :16:26.you, your impressions there of what Kier Starmer has said? Do you see
:16:27. > :16:30.the clear differences between what Labour is offering in terms of
:16:31. > :16:33.Brexit negotiations, if they were to win the election, compared to the
:16:34. > :16:41.Conservatives? No I don't. I suppose one of the central issues. I speak
:16:42. > :16:45.as a lay person in this and not a politician, is - on something as
:16:46. > :16:48.central to the future of this country as the negotiations on
:16:49. > :16:51.Europe, why isn't the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, making
:16:52. > :16:57.a statement about this? Why isn't he talking about this issue? Why has he
:16:58. > :17:01.left it to Kier Starmer? Well he is the Opposition minister for Brexit.
:17:02. > :17:07.I suppose when you look back over the referendum issue and the
:17:08. > :17:12.lead-into the referendum, Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour
:17:13. > :17:15.Party, went AWOL, missing on this, he said the Labour Party was for
:17:16. > :17:21.remaining in Europe but his private position was very, very unclear.
:17:22. > :17:24.Two-thirds of Labour voters z in the end, broadly speaking, back Remain.
:17:25. > :17:29.Voters broadly speaking make their decisions on that. All right.
:17:30. > :17:34.Dominic Raab, do you think Labour's Brexit observations, having heard
:17:35. > :17:39.what Kier Starmer said today, are ex-streamly similar to your own in
:17:40. > :17:42.terms of the end gain it a shows that Jeremy Corbyn could be a
:17:43. > :17:46.credible Prime Minister on Brexit Nice try. Kier Starmer has been
:17:47. > :17:51.banging on for a clear detailed plan, the Government has produced
:17:52. > :17:57.one. He said he would scrap it but hold on, we will not tell you what
:17:58. > :18:00.Labour Party will do until after the election. The big issue for any
:18:01. > :18:04.voter, who do you want going into bat in these negotiations with
:18:05. > :18:08.Juncker junction and Merkel, is it the weak leadership of Jeremy Corbyn
:18:09. > :18:18.or the leadership of Theresa May? About know the Tories want to pit
:18:19. > :18:24.Theresa May verses Jeremy Corbyn. But on the plan I cannot see any
:18:25. > :18:31.difference. Kier Starmer wants his Brexit deal to deliver any benefits
:18:32. > :18:35.we have. So the custom union he says he wants to retain them and Kier
:18:36. > :18:37.Starmer is saying the same. There is no difference. The difference is
:18:38. > :18:42.this. You are right to say there is fudge on Labour's part but we have
:18:43. > :18:47.soit a white Paper in detail all of our approach. You have 2,000 words.
:18:48. > :18:50.It could have' been a piece in a paper from Kier Starmer saying -
:18:51. > :18:56.wait until after the election we'll fill in the gaps then. We know the
:18:57. > :18:58.plan that May hae has set out has attracted strong support from the
:18:59. > :19:01.public. They want to see us rally behind the Government, get the best
:19:02. > :19:05.deal and any vote for the Conservatives, to strengthen our
:19:06. > :19:11.chance for getting the best deal for the whole country. But it is the
:19:12. > :19:15.same as Labour, they want to make a unilateral move... Let me finish.
:19:16. > :19:19.You can hammer home your election messages but voters want to know is
:19:20. > :19:23.there anything different in terms of the two parties approach. We don't
:19:24. > :19:27.know that. We do and they are the same as far as people can see.
:19:28. > :19:30.Alistair Carmichael if Theresa May wins this election, will you finally
:19:31. > :19:34.accept she last a mandate it take the UK out of the single market We
:19:35. > :19:37.are looking for our own mandate in this election, that's what the
:19:38. > :19:42.election is all B I think you have made a fair point today. -- is all
:19:43. > :19:46.about. As far as the Labour position is concerned, Kier Starmer has come
:19:47. > :19:49.up with something that is a distinction without a difference,
:19:50. > :19:52.quite frankly. It is going in the same direction. They are being
:19:53. > :19:56.fairly clever about it, because the Labour Party has this difficulty, a
:19:57. > :20:01.big chunk of the seats that they represent in the current Parliament
:20:02. > :20:05.voted to Leave whereas they as a party were in favour of remaining
:20:06. > :20:09.and now they are trying to face both ways. Of course which the Liberal
:20:10. > :20:16.Democrats would never do. As you well know, Jo. But what you have
:20:17. > :20:20.seen today is somebody who is in his heart a pro-European
:20:21. > :20:24.internationalist he having to come forward and preach a fairly
:20:25. > :20:28.nationalist... Not that I want to put words into Labour Party's mouths
:20:29. > :20:31.he would say he is offering something a bit softer than the
:20:32. > :20:34.Conservatives, he has accepted Brexit will what but offered
:20:35. > :20:39.different priorities. In terms of... When it matters. When it mattered in
:20:40. > :20:44.the Houses of Parliament when we were looking at the Bill to trigger
:20:45. > :20:47.Article 50. The Labour Party simply folded in the House of Lords. So you
:20:48. > :20:50.get a commitment today, Kier Starmer saying this is our day 1 commitment
:20:51. > :20:55.to preserve the rights of EU nationals. But when it really
:20:56. > :21:00.mattered Labour peers abstained. Well that is a firm policy position
:21:01. > :21:03.to take and it is different to the Government. But just to be clear,
:21:04. > :21:06.you will accept if Theresa May wins this election, she will have a
:21:07. > :21:09.mandate Turkey tat UK out of the single market and also a mandate it
:21:10. > :21:23.complete the Brexit process without putting the terms of the deal to the
:21:24. > :21:28.people in a second referendum. -- a mandate to take the cut out.
:21:29. > :21:32.I think what is legitimate to talk about is the need for a second vote
:21:33. > :21:36.or a vote on the deal when we get to know it. Actually that will still be
:21:37. > :21:42.right, whatever the outcome of this election. I will still believe that.
:21:43. > :21:50.A referendum on the deal. Theresa May has blames the likes of Alistair
:21:51. > :21:53.Carmichael and Kier Starmer for frustrating the process her
:21:54. > :21:58.negotiating hand and that's why she had to call a snap election. That
:21:59. > :22:02.was bogus. They didn't block Article 50 and there was nothing getting in
:22:03. > :22:06.the way of her negotiating stance. I don't think that's true. How many
:22:07. > :22:10.times were you defeated in Parliament? We managed to get it
:22:11. > :22:16.through but we had nerves jangling. It is not quite the same. And we
:22:17. > :22:19.have a heavy legislative agenda with the Great Repeal Bill. We have heard
:22:20. > :22:25.from Kier Starmer he would scrap it. He would scrap the key thing to take
:22:26. > :22:30.back democratic control he and the Liberal Democrat position - hold on,
:22:31. > :22:33.I listened to you - not only do we represent the referendum, we will
:22:34. > :22:37.not respect the outcome of this referendum. I think the
:22:38. > :22:41.worst-possible outcome will be Jeremy Corbyn propped up by these
:22:42. > :22:46.saboteurs. Jangling nerves is not the same as blocking the process.
:22:47. > :22:51.You tried to. You have a majority at the moment. You know, if others, as
:22:52. > :22:54.Jo has clearly pointed out, you had no difficulty really getting the
:22:55. > :22:58.Article 50 bill through. If your case is strong enough, you should
:22:59. > :23:04.be, with the majority you have got, get it through Parliament. We have a
:23:05. > :23:07.majority 617. I don't think any Government would not want a stronger
:23:08. > :23:11.mandate. You have the DUP on your side as well. You have a healthy
:23:12. > :23:14.working majority. There has been no point where you've really come -
:23:15. > :23:18.thanks to the Labour Party, and the weakness of the Opposition you get
:23:19. > :23:21.from them, there has been no point where you have come under any real
:23:22. > :23:24.threat. There will be a problem for you, for the Liberal Democrats, in
:23:25. > :23:27.areas like the south-west, where at one time you were strongly
:23:28. > :23:32.represented but, of course, many of those areas n those constituencies
:23:33. > :23:35.in the south-west, many people there voted Leave and actually how much
:23:36. > :23:39.chance do you really think you have of winning back those seats? Well
:23:40. > :23:43.all the signals we get coming from the campaigns in the south-west are
:23:44. > :23:48.that there is a real resurgence in Liberal Democrat fortunes down in
:23:49. > :23:51.that neck of the woods. It is as far away of my own constituency where
:23:52. > :23:54.you have been campaigning, that it is possible to get but everything I
:23:55. > :23:57.hear is very positive and of course it has to be said, and I think it
:23:58. > :24:00.would be accepted that elections, whatever you say about them, are
:24:01. > :24:04.never actually on any one single issue. There will always be other
:24:05. > :24:11.local factors that will have a bearing. Before I get you g Dominic
:24:12. > :24:13.Raab. You will know a string of high profile Conservative MPs have
:24:14. > :24:22.withdrawn their support from the Open Britain group because that o
:24:23. > :24:25.willing targeting pro-Brexit MPs, like Anna Soubry and Nicky morgue A
:24:26. > :24:31.do you welcome that? I think it is welcome. They have been thoughtful
:24:32. > :24:35.contributors to the debate albeit from a different perspective from
:24:36. > :24:41.me. I think it is good to rally behind the UK. I welcome T it is for
:24:42. > :24:46.others to worry B I respect Niki and Anna and they have been thoughtful
:24:47. > :24:51.contributors. You do feel the same about Stephen Dorrell. He is
:24:52. > :24:56.supporting the campaign in his role. What do you say to him? I say time
:24:57. > :24:58.for the political haggling toned. Let's get behind the Government and
:24:59. > :25:02.the country in securing the very best deal for the whole country. To
:25:03. > :25:05.be honest with you, these campaign groups or the Liberal Democrats
:25:06. > :25:09.trying to sabotage these negotiations, just make the risk of
:25:10. > :25:14.getting no deal. Are you calling him a saboteur? Is that the term you
:25:15. > :25:18.will use? Because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we are a
:25:19. > :25:21.saboteur. They are trying to grind the Government to a halt. It is
:25:22. > :25:25.called Opposition. You don't get it from the Labour Party. You do get it
:25:26. > :25:28.from the Liberal Democrats, you clearly don't like it but it is part
:25:29. > :25:33.in being in Government. So suck it up and get on with it. Oh, right,
:25:34. > :25:45.and on that. I will leave you with your two messages.
:25:46. > :25:52.So, this morning three cross-party groups campaigning
:25:53. > :25:54.Let's talk now to one of those involved in today's story,
:25:55. > :25:56.the former Conservative MP Stephen Dorrell, who chairs
:25:57. > :26:02.The Conservative MPs who support Open Britain, were always going to
:26:03. > :26:06.withdraw their support? I do understand why it is difficult, who
:26:07. > :26:09.are carrying the party Labour as official candidates in the election.
:26:10. > :26:14.I understand why that's difficult but I don't think it changes the
:26:15. > :26:18.nature of the argument we are making to voters, which is that this
:26:19. > :26:22.election is unlike any previous elections in my lifetime. In
:26:23. > :26:27.addition to the normal factors you take into account, in a general
:26:28. > :26:30.election vote, that's the party label and also the nature of the
:26:31. > :26:34.candidate locally, we also think there is this hugely important issue
:26:35. > :26:41.of this country's future relationship with Europe, where
:26:42. > :26:46.views do, as a matter of fact, unavoidable fact, cut across party
:26:47. > :26:48.lines and our argument is that individual voters, in making their
:26:49. > :26:53.can choice about the candidate who will be their Member of Parliament,
:26:54. > :27:01.should ask whether this individual will apply on an open-minded basis,
:27:02. > :27:04.the test, during and after the end of the negotiating process, which is
:27:05. > :27:08.the best route forward for Britain. Is it to have leave on the Prime
:27:09. > :27:13.Minister's terms, is it to leave without agreement or is it to remain
:27:14. > :27:18.within the. U? But in the end, Stephen star. -- within the EU. But
:27:19. > :27:23.in the end Stephen Dorrell, we have a first past the post system and
:27:24. > :27:29.people are still elected on party labels, so your campaign is doomed
:27:30. > :27:32.really I don't think it is. Look, everybody knows that individual
:27:33. > :27:36.Members of Parliament havep personal votes that they pick up but because
:27:37. > :27:40.of their record locally, it has nothing to do with their party
:27:41. > :27:46.label. This election, is unlike other elections that in addition to
:27:47. > :27:48.the party label and the local following of Members of Parliament,
:27:49. > :27:52.there is a third dimension to it - what is going to be the attitude to
:27:53. > :27:57.this individual candidate, if elected to the House of Commons, in
:27:58. > :28:01.holding the Government to account through and at the end of this
:28:02. > :28:07.critically important negotiation process? What I want to ensure is
:28:08. > :28:10.that there isn't a one-dimensional view in the House of Commons. I
:28:11. > :28:15.understand that. But I'm talking about the practical logic of your
:28:16. > :28:18.argument. You say you cannot as a Conservative support candidates from
:28:19. > :28:23.your owner party who support Brexit or hard Brexit. Which means you
:28:24. > :28:34.cannot support Mrs May. Well, I'm not a constituent of Mrs May so that
:28:35. > :28:39.issue doesn't arise. Point that I'm seeking to highlight to members of
:28:40. > :28:43.the European Movement, and of course much more generally that when voters
:28:44. > :28:48.cast their vote, yes they are electing a Member of Parliament, a
:28:49. > :28:51.Government I should say, but they are also electing a Member of
:28:52. > :28:53.Parliament who will have this critical duty, during the next
:28:54. > :29:00.Parliament, to hold the Government to account and to insist, as I hope
:29:01. > :29:02.they will, of an open-minded review of where Britain's interests lie in
:29:03. > :29:05.the light of this negotiation. What about your loyalty to the party, to
:29:06. > :29:09.the Conservative Party and the line they are following. If you are going
:29:10. > :29:13.to be targeted Conservative MPs, whom you disagree with on the issue
:29:14. > :29:17.of Brexit, are you actually advocating supporting Liberal
:29:18. > :29:21.Democrats and Labour? I mean that could result in your expulsion from
:29:22. > :29:25.the Conservative Party? Well, my individual position - I don't think
:29:26. > :29:28.matters very much in this. Well it does, you are chairing this
:29:29. > :29:33.movement. What matters is the message to voters that when you are
:29:34. > :29:38.casting your vote, of course as I have already said, I believe Mrs May
:29:39. > :29:42.will be the next Prime Minister, after the election, I hope she is. I
:29:43. > :29:48.hope, also, that the next House of Commons will be made up of people
:29:49. > :29:53.who insist that the negotiating process doesn't simply hark back to
:29:54. > :29:56.the referendum and say - you must accept what we say. But, actually,
:29:57. > :29:59.insists that there is an open-minded review of where Britain's interests
:30:00. > :30:05.lie, when we know what the real choices R Right. What do you --
:30:06. > :30:06.choices are. What do you say, Michael Wilshaw, do you think this
:30:07. > :30:17.campaign will have any traction? valuable I think the voters, when
:30:18. > :30:21.they vote next month, will be looking at a wide range of issues
:30:22. > :30:27.and not just this one. They won't be saying to themselves, is this
:30:28. > :30:32.prospective member of Parliament a softer Brexiteer or a hard
:30:33. > :30:36.Brexiteer? They will vote on a whole range of different issues. I think,
:30:37. > :30:41.you know, the election of Emmanuel Macron in a few weeks' time, and I
:30:42. > :30:46.think that will happen, we don't know yet but we think that's what's
:30:47. > :30:50.going to happen and Angela Merkel in Germany, if that happens and Europe
:30:51. > :30:55.stabilises and the European economy prospers, there's no reason for
:30:56. > :30:58.Europe to give an inch on negotiations and that could spell
:30:59. > :31:05.bad news for Britain, bad news for trade and all the rest of it. And I
:31:06. > :31:07.think if things go badly in negotiations there is every reason
:31:08. > :31:14.to go back to the country. I would support that move. Support the
:31:15. > :31:17.Liberal Democrats them? If negotiations go badly for Britain
:31:18. > :31:19.than I think that people need to look at it and vote again. Stephen
:31:20. > :31:21.Borel, thank you very much. Today, as Theresa May visits south
:31:22. > :31:24.Wales on the campaign trail, up in the north of the nation
:31:25. > :31:27.Plaid Cymru is officially launching their campaign saying
:31:28. > :31:29.they are the only party who can defend Wales as the UK heads
:31:30. > :31:31.into Brexit negotiations. Their leader Leanne Woods
:31:32. > :31:42.joins us from Bangor. Welcome back to the programme. You
:31:43. > :31:48.said you are in defensive mode. Sounds like your party is on the
:31:49. > :31:52.back foot? The country that I live in, Wales, faces some serious
:31:53. > :31:57.dangers in the coming years as the Brexit negotiations unfold. If we
:31:58. > :32:03.are pulled out of the single market there are real threats to jobs and
:32:04. > :32:08.to people's livelihoods and there is even you could argue, a threat to
:32:09. > :32:12.the existence of our very nation. This is about survival for us. We
:32:13. > :32:19.have to defend what we have, we believe the Tories want to take
:32:20. > :32:23.powers away from our National Assembly and so their selection for
:32:24. > :32:27.us is all about defending Wales. You said it's a threat to the survival
:32:28. > :32:33.of Wales. Do you back the case of a Progressive alliance to stop the 70s
:32:34. > :32:36.winning seats in Wales? I've previously said we should do all we
:32:37. > :32:40.can to reduce the numbers of seats the Tories should be able to win in
:32:41. > :32:45.Wales. We need to increase the numbers of Plaid Cymru MPs and we
:32:46. > :32:52.need to reduce the number of Tory MPs. My problem is that, since the
:32:53. > :32:55.Brexit referendum, Labour has failed to stand up for Wales and have been
:32:56. > :32:59.too interested in their own infighting and their own divisions
:33:00. > :33:04.to stand up for the Welsh national interests. So you would not do a
:33:05. > :33:09.deal with Labour? The Green party, the Lib Dems in Wales, to keep out
:33:10. > :33:15.the Tories? I have previously suggested cooperation to do that,
:33:16. > :33:20.and that idea has not gone anywhere, but now we have to focus on making
:33:21. > :33:23.sure that this election returns a maximum number of Plaid Cymru MPs
:33:24. > :33:27.because that's the only way Wales will have a strong voice in
:33:28. > :33:31.Westminster after the election. If you look at the latest opinion poll
:33:32. > :33:37.which I'm sure you have seen, it was pretty startling in terms of how the
:33:38. > :33:41.Conservatives might do in Wales, it indicated they might get a majority
:33:42. > :33:45.for the first time in something like over 100 years. Isn't it the best
:33:46. > :33:50.chance to stop the Brexit deal and save Wales actually getting in with
:33:51. > :33:55.Labour to make sure the Tories don't win any more seats? The Tories are
:33:56. > :33:59.on a roll. A poll which came out yesterday shows that they are ahead.
:34:00. > :34:03.We have got six weeks to go before the end of this election. People in
:34:04. > :34:08.Wales would do well to remember the Tories record. I grew up in the
:34:09. > :34:12.valleys in the 1980s. Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister and she
:34:13. > :34:15.decimated the coal industry. Today, we are still paying the price for
:34:16. > :34:21.that and we have had Labour representation for many, many years
:34:22. > :34:25.and they have failed to pull us out of the economic mess we have been in
:34:26. > :34:31.and the Tories now with an increased mandate risk making things even
:34:32. > :34:36.worse. Why are they capitalising on Labour's difficulties and struggled
:34:37. > :34:41.and not you? We have yet to have the election campaign yet. There has
:34:42. > :34:45.been lots of problems with polls in recent times. There's a real poll on
:34:46. > :34:49.May the 4th, Plaid Cymru is looking to do well in a number of areas. And
:34:50. > :34:53.so it is that one I'm more interested in more than anything
:34:54. > :34:58.else. You are worried about Brexit the gauche Asians but Wales did
:34:59. > :35:02.vote, albeit by a small majority, to leave. That makes it difficult for
:35:03. > :35:08.you in this campaign, doesn't it? Yes but people didn't vote to lose
:35:09. > :35:14.our funding, we did not vote to lose jobs and put those jobs at risk.
:35:15. > :35:17.People did not vote for a hard, Tory extreme Brexit. If that poll becomes
:35:18. > :35:23.true, that's exactly what they will be voting for in your mind, if they
:35:24. > :35:27.do actually put a cross next to the Conservatives, and they become the
:35:28. > :35:32.biggest party, will you accept that is what Wales wants? That's exactly
:35:33. > :35:34.why people should not vote Conservative, it risks people's
:35:35. > :35:40.livelihoods, and I would say there is a better option for all of those
:35:41. > :35:44.Labour voters who are fed up with being taken advantage of if you like
:35:45. > :35:50.by the party. Labour have accepted people's votes, you could have
:35:51. > :35:58.weighed Labour's votes in the valleys of Wales in the past and
:35:59. > :36:02.people have moved away because they see they are unable to form any kind
:36:03. > :36:07.of a government so it Plaid Cymru's opportunity now and it's only as who
:36:08. > :36:09.will stand up and defend Wales. Leanne Wood is, thank you very much.
:36:10. > :36:12.Now I need to watch my Ps and Qs because I've got
:36:13. > :36:17.Until last year, Sir Michael Wilshaw was the Chief Inspector
:36:18. > :36:25.So he ought to know a thing or two about what makes a good school.
:36:26. > :36:29.But some have questioned whether the watchdog
:36:30. > :36:31.he used to head up, Ofsted, has the right approach.
:36:32. > :36:35.All parents want to give their kids a head start in life.
:36:36. > :36:37.But it's not always a level playing field.
:36:38. > :36:44.I went to one in Kent where, instead of a school bell,
:36:45. > :36:47.they play Vivaldi so pupils know how long they've got to get
:36:48. > :36:54.So three years ago the headline figure of a number of GCSEs,
:36:55. > :36:58.including English, maths, C and above, they got 24%
:36:59. > :37:03.and last summer we got 56%, which is rapid and radical actual
:37:04. > :37:06.increase in results in just three years.
:37:07. > :37:13.As well as hiking up exam results, the school became an academy in 2013
:37:14. > :37:15.also received a good rating from Ofsted following its most
:37:16. > :37:20.So is that what a school needs to make the grade?
:37:21. > :37:24.The Ofsted report and the results don't tell the full story.
:37:25. > :37:26.There's lots and lots of elements of course.
:37:27. > :37:31.Reputation can be double-edged because good reputations can linger
:37:32. > :37:34.when their sell by dates have gone and poor reputation can linger
:37:35. > :37:39.when the school has been transformed like we have.
:37:40. > :37:41.There's the ease with which you can recruit teachers and something
:37:42. > :37:45.that is important to me and I've said this from day one is that
:37:46. > :37:50.children enjoy coming to school and feel safe and happy in school.
:37:51. > :37:54.Ofsted inspectors do now take more factors into account when assessing
:37:55. > :37:57.and rating but some experts say there is an inherent unfairness
:37:58. > :38:03.against schools whose pupils come from more challenging backgrounds.
:38:04. > :38:05.If you're focusing on schools getting a high number of pupils
:38:06. > :38:08.with GCSE results and that being closely linked with Ofsted
:38:09. > :38:12.If you're more interested in the rate of progress pupils
:38:13. > :38:15.are making and their performance in context taking into account
:38:16. > :38:19.levels of disadvantaged and so on, it would suggest from the data that
:38:20. > :38:23.Ofsted outcomes at the moment are unfair.
:38:24. > :38:25.When you start talking about unfairness, you're in danger
:38:26. > :38:29.of becoming a bit bleaty and making excuses but I'm not.
:38:30. > :38:31.But as they say, I'd just post the question,
:38:32. > :38:36.to judge one school which has a very, very different make-up
:38:37. > :38:39.in terms of the background and the affluence and the support
:38:40. > :38:44.of the families against a school where it is radically different,
:38:45. > :38:49.I just think it should have some questions raised.
:38:50. > :38:52.You need to think about questions that, when proved, you can ask
:38:53. > :38:56.But maybe it's the pupils who have the answer
:38:57. > :39:01.You should be able to share your opinions with teachers
:39:02. > :39:06.I think the teachers need to push you and make you drive
:39:07. > :39:08.and take into consideration what your ambitions
:39:09. > :39:12.are and what you aspire to be after what you do
:39:13. > :39:18.Strict teachers can be annoying and some students find them annoying
:39:19. > :39:21.but it's best to get it over with because sometimes when you're
:39:22. > :39:23.older and you progress, you will have bosses you don't
:39:24. > :39:28.And maybe that's another measure, learning those valuable
:39:29. > :39:40.So very wise, those pupils in that film.
:39:41. > :39:43.And Sir Michael Wilshaw, former Chief Inspector
:39:44. > :39:45.of Schools in England, is still with me.
:39:46. > :39:49.Do you accept the point it is unfair for all schools to be judged by the
:39:50. > :39:53.same measures when they come from different parts of the country and
:39:54. > :39:56.have very different experiences in terms of deprivation and wealth?
:39:57. > :40:01.They are not judged by the same measures. Interesting looking at
:40:02. > :40:07.that school in Kent, I looked at the GCSE scores, 56%, quite good, and
:40:08. > :40:12.the judgment of Ofsted was good, but it is below the national average,
:40:13. > :40:15.56%. The reason why inspectors judge the school to be good is because we
:40:16. > :40:19.looked at the intake at the School, looked at the starting point is the
:40:20. > :40:24.children who go to the school and we measure the progress that those
:40:25. > :40:31.children make the starting points. So you are focusing on added value?
:40:32. > :40:34.Yes, all our judgment based on the progress, not just the outcome but
:40:35. > :40:39.the progress children the starting points to end points and we
:40:40. > :40:44.recognise that some schools are in tough challenging areas and that
:40:45. > :40:47.schools and head teachers and teachers have to work that much
:40:48. > :40:52.harder than in other areas. We judge progress more than anything else. Do
:40:53. > :40:57.you then want to hit back at criticism is coming your way from
:40:58. > :40:59.teaching unions saying that Ofsted was very demoralising for teachers
:41:00. > :41:05.in those tough areas where they were dealing with many pupils from a very
:41:06. > :41:08.low base? I've been around a long time, a teacher and a headteacher
:41:09. > :41:14.and I remember what standards were like in the 70s and the 80s and 90s
:41:15. > :41:19.before Ofsted came into being in 1992. Standards were absolutely
:41:20. > :41:23.dire. In London, look at London now, and now London is doing
:41:24. > :41:26.exceptionally well. Schools are doing better because a better
:41:27. > :41:32.teaching, leadership, but primarily because of accountability. The
:41:33. > :41:36.accountability of inspection, league tables, publication of results and
:41:37. > :41:41.so on and it's quite interesting, you had a piece on Wales, and what's
:41:42. > :41:44.happening in terms of Brexit, the Welsh education system is tanking
:41:45. > :41:49.compared to the progress England is making. One of the reasons is
:41:50. > :41:55.because the Welsh government took away accountability, results, they
:41:56. > :42:00.did not publish results, they took away league tables, and they are
:42:01. > :42:07.rapidly reintroducing those measures now and the Welsh performance is
:42:08. > :42:11.absolutely terrible. I suspect a lot of the people in Wales are not
:42:12. > :42:15.voting for Labour because of what they did to education. What about
:42:16. > :42:19.funding? How much of an influence is funding from government in terms of
:42:20. > :42:25.outcomes? The Institute for Fiscal Studies says per pupil is likely to
:42:26. > :42:30.fall by about 8% in real terms over the next few years and what will
:42:31. > :42:33.that do to add comes and results? Over the last 20 years, funding has
:42:34. > :42:38.been pretty generous to school budgets and they have been ring
:42:39. > :42:44.fenced. The government... Is that why they have done well? Partly for
:42:45. > :42:49.that reason, but I think the government is right to rebalance the
:42:50. > :42:54.budget formula. If you look at somewhere like Barnsley, which is
:42:55. > :42:58.underperforming, a deprived area, they get 50% less funding in
:42:59. > :43:02.secondary schools than Hackney, where rye was a headteacher. That
:43:03. > :43:09.cannot be right. There will be transitional problems between one
:43:10. > :43:14.family and another. Having said that, the government needs to keep
:43:15. > :43:16.an eye on where that 8% cut in the budget is in real terms not cash
:43:17. > :43:21.terms. Let's leave it there. Staying with education,
:43:22. > :43:23.one of the policies likely to be in the Conservatives' election
:43:24. > :43:25.manifesto is the creation of more grammar schools,
:43:26. > :43:27.something our guest of the day Michael Wilshaw isn't
:43:28. > :43:29.very happy about. Since becoming Prime Minister,
:43:30. > :43:31.Theresa May has pushed for more Here she is last
:43:32. > :43:34.year explaining why. We know that grammar schools
:43:35. > :43:36.are hugely popular with parents. We know they are good
:43:37. > :43:39.for the pupils that attend them. Indeed, the attainment gap
:43:40. > :43:42.between rich and poor pupils is reduced to almost zero
:43:43. > :43:47.for children in selective schools. And we know that
:43:48. > :43:50.they want to expand. They provide a stretching education
:43:51. > :43:53.for the most academically able, regardless of their background
:43:54. > :43:55.and they deliver In fact, 99% of existing
:43:56. > :44:00.selective schools are rated 80% are outstanding,
:44:01. > :44:04.compared with just 20% So we help no one, not least those
:44:05. > :44:11.who can't afford to move house or pay for a private education,
:44:12. > :44:14.by saying to parents who want a selective education
:44:15. > :44:16.for their child that we won't let There is nothing meritocratic
:44:17. > :44:21.about standing in the way of giving our most academically
:44:22. > :44:24.gifted children the specialist and tailored support that can enable
:44:25. > :44:29.them to fulfil their potential. And the Conservative MP
:44:30. > :44:32.Graham Brady, who chairs the backbench Conservative 1922
:44:33. > :44:44.committee, is here. Welcome back to the Daily Politics.
:44:45. > :44:48.Apart from anecdotal, what actual hard evidence is there a grammar
:44:49. > :44:51.schools help overall standards or social mobility? I think there's a
:44:52. > :44:57.huge amount of evidence, if you look at the performance of education
:44:58. > :45:01.authorities as a whole, then of those top ten in GCSE results, seven
:45:02. > :45:05.out of ten are party selective and at A-level, eight out the top ten
:45:06. > :45:13.are party selective, and if you look at those local authorities which are
:45:14. > :45:17.doing best, they get children into higher education institutions, nine
:45:18. > :45:18.out of ten. So there is hard evidence to back up the expansion of
:45:19. > :45:35.grammar schools? The English education system, is
:45:36. > :45:39.doing better than the Northern Irish system which has a selective system.
:45:40. > :45:43.Has grammar schools. If you look at Buckinghamshire and Graham will know
:45:44. > :45:48.this, we debated this issue a few weeks ago. If you look at
:45:49. > :45:53.Buckinghamshire which has a selective system, something like 54%
:45:54. > :45:55.of secondary schools which are not selective are either in special
:45:56. > :46:00.measures or are requiring improvement. And you read across
:46:01. > :46:05.from those statistics to Kent which has a selective system, to Sutton,
:46:06. > :46:09.to Southend where they have grammar schools you see those youngsters who
:46:10. > :46:13.don't go to the grammar schools doing incredibly badly in what are
:46:14. > :46:20.secondary modern schools. Well there is the evidence that it does not
:46:21. > :46:24.help pupils who are on free school meals, whatever the measure you want
:46:25. > :46:27.to use, to raise their standards or improve social mobility. Michael's
:46:28. > :46:29.concerns is about the quality of the other schools and I think that's
:46:30. > :46:31.probably where he should be focussing his concerns. If you look
:46:32. > :46:36.at transferred the area which I represent, which I think has the
:46:37. > :46:39.best state education in the country, it is not just the grammar schools
:46:40. > :46:42.that are getting phenomenally good results, it is the high schools.
:46:43. > :46:48.They would be getting average results from the country even
:46:49. > :46:51.without the grammar schools. Trafford is an of a fluent area. It
:46:52. > :46:55.is very mixed. Let me quote the figures to you. If you look at
:46:56. > :46:58.pupils on free school meals what percentage of them are at the
:46:59. > :47:08.grammar schools? Relatively low percentage.
:47:09. > :47:16.2.5 one of the grammars grammars and 6% in another. There is a variety
:47:17. > :47:20.across different schools but if you look and Michael pensioned this, if
:47:21. > :47:25.you look at Northern Ireland, it has 70% of pupil on free school meals
:47:26. > :47:31.getting good GCSEs results. Why hasn't that happened in Trafford.
:47:32. > :47:35.You picked Stretford but 2.5% in Altrincham grammar. Hang on, this is
:47:36. > :47:39.the evidence against this argument that it helps social mobility. The
:47:40. > :47:43.figures show less than 3% of children in grammar schools are on
:47:44. > :47:47.free school meals compared it 18% of children in the same area. I'm in
:47:48. > :47:50.favour of grammar schools doing more to encourage people to come in and
:47:51. > :47:55.take the test. One of the biggest reasons I think where there has been
:47:56. > :47:58.a move backwards in this decade is that the test is no longer taken
:47:59. > :48:02.universally, it is largely self-selecting. I want far more
:48:03. > :48:06.people taking the test to #345ik sure we get all of the children. Is
:48:07. > :48:09.the solution more grammars schools and then you would help more people
:48:10. > :48:13.from backgrounds. No, it isn't. I mentioned this when I debated this
:48:14. > :48:16.issue with Graham some weeks ago. The Conservatives are made a big
:48:17. > :48:22.difference to standards, actually. You know. The introduction of
:48:23. > :48:27.academies and free schools, tougher testing, a tougher curriculum, and
:48:28. > :48:30.so on, has made a big ditches that's why English standards apart from
:48:31. > :48:35.Ofsted and accountability, are going up. Why now, throw a spanner in the
:48:36. > :48:40.works of your own policies actually? I wouldn't. I'm happy to take all of
:48:41. > :48:42.the plaudits that Sir Michael wants to give for the Conservative
:48:43. > :48:46.education policy but there is a fundamental point here. I think that
:48:47. > :48:49.the choice of schools, the kind of schools that should be available
:48:50. > :48:54.should really be there for parent. I don't think it is for politicians or
:48:55. > :48:56.even for former Chief Inspectors of schools to decide what kind of
:48:57. > :49:00.schools should be available to people. There is real demand. #r5e8
:49:01. > :49:05.evidence that they work and think it is right we open that up when people
:49:06. > :49:09.want them. But they would argue they only work for a #2350u people would
:49:10. > :49:13.you like to see grammar schools in every county? I would like to see
:49:14. > :49:21.them where there is demand. I never said I would force it. Middle class
:49:22. > :49:24.parents who pay for a tutor. You are making a big assumption. The proof
:49:25. > :49:29.is in the people that go to the grammar schools that exist. The
:49:30. > :49:33.grammar schools that remain tend for more in the more affluent areas. I
:49:34. > :49:37.would love to see state grammar schools in the big urban areas and
:49:38. > :49:42.more deprived areas T would be a starting point for the policy. Would
:49:43. > :49:47.it add to the improved standings you are talking about? To tell a
:49:48. > :49:51.youngster at 10 or 11 that they are a success or failure and that their
:49:52. > :49:58.whole future depends on what happens on one day in one test I think is a
:49:59. > :50:02.big, big mistake. I mention one student because I taught Bobby
:50:03. > :50:08.Seeing you will, in the University Challenge and he was captain of
:50:09. > :50:12.Emmanuel. A boy Iing taught. Came from a very poor part of south-east
:50:13. > :50:16.London. He didn't - and if you discuss this with him, he didn't
:50:17. > :50:20.start to show his mettle until he was in year 8, 9 when he was 12 or
:50:21. > :50:25.13. Youngsters progress at ditch rates and to say sto a youngster at
:50:26. > :50:29.10 - that's t you are going a second class school because you didn't pass
:50:30. > :50:32.the 11-plus. Nobody should be sent to a second class school I'm open to
:50:33. > :50:36.the point of which schools select. Whether it is at 11 or 14 or
:50:37. > :50:44.wherever it might be, that's something we can look at but the
:50:45. > :50:55.crucial thing Hooker is that grammar schools are not the whole of the
:50:56. > :51:01.storey. As long as the high schools are also high 46 performing schools
:51:02. > :51:05.as they are in Trafford. If you are taking pupils away from the schools
:51:06. > :51:08.in the same y you are not going to help. In Trafford, the performance
:51:09. > :51:11.of high schools, it drives high standards. It is not as we have
:51:12. > :51:13.heard throughout the rest of the country, when you look like areas
:51:14. > :51:16.throughout Buckinghamshire, for example, you are just going to
:51:17. > :51:20.dilute the potential. The drive should be to raise the standard of
:51:21. > :51:23.the other schools and the other side of the coin which is critically
:51:24. > :51:25.important as well and I'm so pleased to hear Philip Hammond introducing
:51:26. > :51:29.this, the introduction of tech levels, something we have been bad
:51:30. > :51:31.at, I'm delighted that Theresa May is moving forward with grammar
:51:32. > :51:34.schools, where people want them but also with a new initiative to help
:51:35. > :51:40.higher quality technical education, it is the right kind of schooling
:51:41. > :51:41.for each child. Graham Brady, thank you very much.
:51:42. > :51:43.London is home to some of the world's super-rich.
:51:44. > :51:46.But for too long, according to campaigners, the capital's been
:51:47. > :51:48.a haven for corrupt individuals from overseas who buy assets
:51:49. > :51:55.A bill being debated in the Lords today aims to clamp down on corrupt
:51:56. > :51:59.It's one of the handful of pieces of legislation being pushed
:52:00. > :52:03.But does parliament really have the political will
:52:04. > :52:11.They buy luxury London property and educate their children at our
:52:12. > :52:20.Among the capital's wealthy elite are individuals who use the proceeds
:52:21. > :52:22.of criminal activities abroad to finance a lavish
:52:23. > :52:38.It was inspired by a whistleblower from Russia.
:52:39. > :52:48.Lawyer Sergei Magnitsky alleged that a circle of Russian interior and tax
:52:49. > :52:51.ministry officials had conspired in a $230 million tax fraud scheme.
:52:52. > :52:53.He uncovered evidence which appeared to show state officials had enabled
:52:54. > :52:54.vast sums to be stolen from the public purse.
:52:55. > :52:59.But he was imprisoned and allegedly beaten to death.
:53:00. > :53:02.Lawyer Sergei Magnitsky had been tortured and murdered
:53:03. > :53:06.We've been trying to pursue justice for him in the last
:53:07. > :53:11.$30 million allegedly from the Magnitsky case has now
:53:12. > :53:14.?41,000 was spent here at this couture wedding dress
:53:15. > :53:18.?115,000 was paid to Harrods Estates, this luxury
:53:19. > :53:26.And ?20,000 in fees paid to this private school.
:53:27. > :53:28.Nobody had ever been prosecuted in Russia.
:53:29. > :53:30.They've all been allowed to keep their money and many have
:53:31. > :53:35.Investigators say billions of pounds of assets in the UK are bought
:53:36. > :53:41.by foreign officials from corrupt regimes and even dictators.
:53:42. > :53:43.Bill Browder has campaigned to get governments around
:53:44. > :53:56.Imposing new sanctions here in Britain against rich Russian
:53:57. > :53:58.officials could have repercussions for the UK's relationship
:53:59. > :54:01.with Russia at the highest levels of the Putin regime.
:54:02. > :54:05.London has been a haven for bad guys from all over the world for human
:54:06. > :54:07.rights violators and other kleptocrats and the reason
:54:08. > :54:16.it is is because there has not been any consequence to that.
:54:17. > :54:18.Nobody's lost their assets, nobody's been arrested.
:54:19. > :54:22.According to the National Crime Agency, as much as ?100 billion
:54:23. > :54:28.of illicitly-gained wealth is laundered through
:54:29. > :54:32.Under the current system, relatively few assets are seized.
:54:33. > :54:34.The Criminal Finances Bill will introduce Unexplained Wealth Orders.
:54:35. > :54:36.When a person is suspected of being involved in serious crime
:54:37. > :54:45.or human rights abuses abroad, the High Court will be able to order
:54:46. > :54:47.them to explain the origin of assets that appear disproportionate
:54:48. > :54:53.The order itself will be a very powerful investigatory
:54:54. > :54:57.It depends on whether the government and the police
:54:58. > :55:00.We've identified over 140 properties in London worth in excess
:55:01. > :55:08.of ?4 billion between them that ought to be prime targets
:55:09. > :55:17.for the Unexplained Wealth Order, but the Home Office's own impact
:55:18. > :55:19.assessment assumes that there will be none of these orders
:55:20. > :55:23.in the first year it becomes law and only on average 20 a year
:55:24. > :55:25.after that, recovering assets they value at just ?6 million.
:55:26. > :55:28.It estimated the UK is only recovering a fraction of the corrupt
:55:29. > :55:34.So can London ever really stop being a place where rich individuals
:55:35. > :55:56.can live alternative lives and hide their past crimes?
:55:57. > :55:58.Back to the election campaign and Theresa May
:55:59. > :56:01.Our correpondent Vicki Young is following the Prime
:56:02. > :56:06.Theresa May believes there are no-go us now from Bridgend.
:56:07. > :56:10.Theresa May believes there are no-go areas from the Conservative. They
:56:11. > :56:13.are upbeat and think they are make gains from Labour. There are various
:56:14. > :56:19.reasons. One is the issue of Brexit. Theresa May wanting to make this
:56:20. > :56:23.election about Brexit. Saying needs a mandate to negotiate a good deal
:56:24. > :56:27.and Wales is a country that voted to leave the EU and there is a sizeable
:56:28. > :56:31.Ukip vote. They polled around 14% in Wales and the Conservatives are
:56:32. > :56:36.confident they can take back quite a lot of former Ukip voters and really
:56:37. > :56:39.harm Labour's chances. Right. I mean the election campaign hasn't
:56:40. > :56:43.officially started, in that sense, what do you Will do you think in the
:56:44. > :56:47.terms of the style of Theresa May as she goes out on the campaign trail,
:56:48. > :56:51.from now on? I think it is going to be interesting as to how much she
:56:52. > :56:57.does meet voters themselves and how much she does dwell on the issue of
:56:58. > :56:59.Brexit. I think here in Wales, in South Wales particularly her
:57:00. > :57:03.argument is going to be broader than that. She's looking at Labour's
:57:04. > :57:07.record here, saying they haven't delivered when it comes to the NHS
:57:08. > :57:11.and schools and I think she might broaden that argument to talk much
:57:12. > :57:15.more and try to appeal to working class voters, to former Labour
:57:16. > :57:18.voters saying and coming forward with ideas about aspiration, about
:57:19. > :57:23.helping people on lower incomes. So it will be interesting to see how
:57:24. > :57:26.that works and even Carwyn Jones, the leader of Labour here in Wales
:57:27. > :57:30.has admitted that they have a mountain to climb. Now Labour don't
:57:31. > :57:34.think it is going to be totally disastrous for them here but
:57:35. > :57:37.certainly Labour MPs are pretty concerned that that the Tories could
:57:38. > :57:40.be making inroads and if the Conservatives were to win more seats
:57:41. > :57:46.than Labour here in else with a, it would be the first time since
:57:47. > :57:51.91850s, something to think about. That's historic to say the least.
:57:52. > :57:55.Looking at Brexit. The poll has indicated former Labour voters who
:57:56. > :57:58.went to Ukip last time, many of those will switch their vote to the
:57:59. > :58:01.Tories T makes it difficult for Labour to appeal to voters who
:58:02. > :58:07.perhaps voted Leave in the referendum when they are still
:58:08. > :58:11.firmly Remain in Wales. Yes, I think it will mean that in marginal seats,
:58:12. > :58:15.for example, and that of course really does help the Tories, not
:58:16. > :58:18.just here in Wales but places like the South West. It'll help them
:58:19. > :58:21.maybe fend off the Liberal Democrats. So the idea that Theresa
:58:22. > :58:26.May is going out around the country saying - I need this mandate, I need
:58:27. > :58:30.to deliver, and then you have Labour making speeches where they say they
:58:31. > :58:39.accept the referendum result but they do sound reluctant to go along
:58:40. > :58:41.with it, whole heartedly, that's not going to down well in places like
:58:42. > :58:44.this. OK. Thank you very much. There's just time before we go
:58:45. > :58:48.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which politician
:58:49. > :58:49.has announced they are resigning from their party and will stand
:58:50. > :58:55.as an Independent candidate Marine Le Pen. It is, well done.
:58:56. > :59:09.Thank you. This is all Roz,
:59:10. > :59:15.she's trying to frame me!