:00:51. > :00:52.Afternoon, folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:53. > :00:54.Labour's draft general election manifesto has been leaked.
:00:55. > :00:57.As the party's leadership meets to agree the final version,
:00:58. > :01:00.how damaging is the leak and what does the document tell us
:01:01. > :01:01.about Jeremy Corbyn's vision for Britain?
:01:02. > :01:03.The Conservatives are promising to increase defence spending
:01:04. > :01:06.for the next five years but senior retired military figures
:01:07. > :01:09.say our armed forces face a funding crisis.
:01:10. > :01:17.The Green Party is launching its environmental policy,
:01:18. > :01:19.while the Liberal Democrats promise to take 50,000 more Syrian refugees.
:01:20. > :01:22.We'll bring you all the latest from the campaign trail.
:01:23. > :01:24.I've brought the Moodbox to the island of Anglesey to test
:01:25. > :01:36.the Theresa May effect in this part of Wales.
:01:37. > :01:39.When I say the name Theresa May, which words pop into your head?
:01:40. > :01:49.All that in the next hour of this Daily Politics election special,
:01:50. > :01:52.and I'm joined for all of it by the Plaid Cymru
:01:53. > :01:56.Hopefully she's bought a photocopy of her party's manifesto so we can
:01:57. > :02:00.So first today, Labour was meant to be approving its general election
:02:01. > :02:03.manifesto at a meeting today ahead of its launch next week.
:02:04. > :02:08.Unfortunately it's been launched for them, when the Telegraph,
:02:09. > :02:17.Mirror and then the BBC obtained a copy of the 20,000-word,
:02:18. > :02:20.Labour's shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, was asked
:02:21. > :02:32.Do you know who leaked your manifesto? No, it is disappointing.
:02:33. > :02:37.We are having a meeting. Do you recognise the policies?
:02:38. > :02:41.Renationalising the railways? We have a democratic process in the
:02:42. > :02:46.party and we will decide it and we will launch it on Tuesday. I have
:02:47. > :02:48.got to catch my bus. Do you realise it is such a social manifesto?
:02:49. > :02:50.Do you realise it is such a social manifesto?
:02:51. > :02:59.The clause 5 meeting you heard him talking about is a gathering
:03:00. > :03:01.of senior figures from around the Labour movement.
:03:02. > :03:03.They have just started meeting to approve this manifesto,
:03:04. > :03:07.The leaked manifesto includes plans to renationalise the railways,
:03:08. > :03:09.parts of the energy industry and the Royal Mail.
:03:10. > :03:19.It also says that a Labour government would scrap
:03:20. > :03:21.university tuition fees, provide an extra ?6 billion a year
:03:22. > :03:23.for the NHS and borrow ?250 billion for infrastructure spending.
:03:24. > :03:26.The leaked manifesto says there will be no target
:03:27. > :03:27.on immigration numbers and refuses to make false
:03:28. > :03:32.And the Labour Party would rule out leaving
:03:33. > :03:37.The document also pledges to bring in an immediate energy price cap
:03:38. > :03:46.It includes plans to renew the Trident nuclear weapons
:03:47. > :03:48.programme but makes it clear a Labour Prime Minister
:03:49. > :03:51.would be extremely cautious about using the deterrent.
:03:52. > :03:55.If the leaked document is correct, Labour will promise significant
:03:56. > :04:02.increases in corporation tax and inheritance tax.
:04:03. > :04:08.The voting age will be reduced to 16 and trade union rights
:04:09. > :04:16.So that is just some of what is in it.
:04:17. > :04:22.We will see what the final document looks like next Tuesday.
:04:23. > :04:24.The clause five meeting may make some changes.
:04:25. > :04:27.Now we are joined by the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn
:04:28. > :04:29.and the Guardian's Anushka Asthana, a black mark for both
:04:30. > :04:35.of them as neither of their papers had the leak.
:04:36. > :04:44.What can I say? Does the leak matter? Is it embarrassing? I want
:04:45. > :04:50.to correct you, we also had the leak. Perhaps a few minutes after
:04:51. > :04:53.the others. We did not have it. It is embarrassing, it is clearly
:04:54. > :04:57.embarrassing and everyone is trying to ask who leaked it, conspiracy
:04:58. > :05:01.theories about whether it came from the leader's office or the Shadow
:05:02. > :05:08.Cabinet or perhaps from union figures who were able to look at it.
:05:09. > :05:11.So many people had the draft. Actually, people would say it was a
:05:12. > :05:17.tight circle, but I believe they showed it to a number of union
:05:18. > :05:21.liaison officials who had their iPhones out and started taking the
:05:22. > :05:25.odd picture. We are talking about the Labour manifesto now, so maybe
:05:26. > :05:29.it gets more publicity as a result of this. Is it a problem because
:05:30. > :05:34.they are not controlling the discussion now? The glass half full
:05:35. > :05:40.award of the year goes to Andrew Quinn this morning because he said
:05:41. > :05:46.at least we are talking about labour today. This simply was not a
:05:47. > :05:50.planned, sneaky PR operation for two good reasons. One is you lose all
:05:51. > :05:55.control of your message and you allow rivals to brand back to the
:05:56. > :05:59.1970s rather than forward and modernising which is what John
:06:00. > :06:05.McDonnell would like. Second, you will always get your big for PR.
:06:06. > :06:09.Landing this in a way that looks shambolic corresponds to all the
:06:10. > :06:14.focus groups that the Tories were doing and the one word that always
:06:15. > :06:18.comes back at the doorstep when asking about Jeremy Corbyn, one is
:06:19. > :06:24.Marxist and the other one is a shambles. You are playing perfectly
:06:25. > :06:27.into the opposition's narrative. People will be interested in some of
:06:28. > :06:34.the policies and some of them on their own may be quite popular.
:06:35. > :06:39.Focus groups may suggest others are unpopular. But when you go through
:06:40. > :06:45.it, it is a relentless list of spending commitments. We are doing
:06:46. > :06:49.this, tuition fees, 250 billion for infrastructure, 8 billion for social
:06:50. > :06:55.care, 6 billion for the NHS, and on and on. If you are a party that has
:06:56. > :06:59.a problem with tax and spend reputation, this does not resolve
:07:00. > :07:05.it. I think you are right, that is one of the things they want to try
:07:06. > :07:08.to show, this fiscal credibility rule, the day-to-day balancing.
:07:09. > :07:13.There are a lot of spending commitments in there which are quite
:07:14. > :07:18.eye watering. The 250 billion to be clear is money they would borrow in
:07:19. > :07:22.order to invest in infrastructure. They have not set out all of their
:07:23. > :07:27.tax plans, so we know they will reverse corporation tax and
:07:28. > :07:32.inheritance tax. We know they will tax people who owed over 80 grand,
:07:33. > :07:37.we do not know by how much. I think it is interesting that Tom said the
:07:38. > :07:41.leak had suggested people would brand it as a 1970s manifesto.
:07:42. > :07:47.However Labour had put this out, that might have been... It is
:07:48. > :07:53.something the critics would always charge them with. You have to break
:07:54. > :07:58.down what the offer is. One is who does not want to get rid of tuition
:07:59. > :08:01.fees or free school meals for everybody? Then there is the
:08:02. > :08:06.ideological big state taking back control. The problem with the retail
:08:07. > :08:11.offer is, which everyone wants to vote for, if you can only get people
:08:12. > :08:17.to vote for you if it is credible to deliver it and they think that. The
:08:18. > :08:22.credibility problem is still Jeremy Corbyn's biggest headache. What do
:08:23. > :08:26.you make of what you have seen? Well, I wonder how much of it
:08:27. > :08:32.applies right across the entire British state. The Labour first
:08:33. > :08:37.Minister in Wales has already distanced himself from this
:08:38. > :08:40.manifesto. They are launching a different campaign in Wales,
:08:41. > :08:46.recycling pledges that are already devolved that they promised ahead of
:08:47. > :08:51.last year's assembly election. Some of the policies in this leaked
:08:52. > :08:55.manifesto Labour in Wales have had an opportunity to implement those
:08:56. > :09:01.policies and have chosen not to do so. Plaid Cymru has put down motions
:09:02. > :09:06.to end zero hours contracts in the public sector several times and
:09:07. > :09:11.Labour have voted us down. They have had an opportunity to create an
:09:12. > :09:15.alternative public Royal Mail in Wales. We put a motion proposal to
:09:16. > :09:22.them in 2013 for that and they have altered that. The same with rail
:09:23. > :09:27.privatisation. The franchise for the Welsh rail system is coming up for
:09:28. > :09:31.renewal in 2018 and all the companies bidding for that our
:09:32. > :09:36.private sector companies. There is no Welsh public sector company in
:09:37. > :09:40.the bidding. There are a range of missed opportunities as far as
:09:41. > :09:44.Labour are concerned from a Welsh perspective. In terms of funding we
:09:45. > :09:48.know about the corporation tax rise, although we do not know how much
:09:49. > :09:53.that will raise. We know about the capital gains tax rise and that is a
:09:54. > :10:00.much smaller sum, and we know about inheritance. But there is a lot in
:10:01. > :10:03.the draft about major unfunded spending commitments. A lot now
:10:04. > :10:09.seems to hang on by how much those earning more than ?80,000 a year
:10:10. > :10:14.will pay more tax. Do you think they will tell us what it means all will
:10:15. > :10:21.it stick with the formula that those who own more than ?50,000 will have
:10:22. > :10:26.to pay more? Senior figures in the party say we will know what that
:10:27. > :10:31.figure is, that is the one thing we will get when the manifesto is
:10:32. > :10:38.launched. It feels it will have to be rather large. Only 3% of people
:10:39. > :10:43.and that amount of money. 5%. 5% is the figure they say, but over 80 it
:10:44. > :10:48.is less. The number is not the issue. The issue is how important
:10:49. > :10:53.they have already become to the tax base. There are only 1.2 million of
:10:54. > :10:58.them in this category, maybe 1.3, but they account for almost 50% of
:10:59. > :11:04.all income tax receipts, so they are crucial to the tax base already. The
:11:05. > :11:09.danger is if the burden gets bigger and bigger, you may not have them at
:11:10. > :11:15.all. Everyone knows that behaviour is affected by tax rates and if
:11:16. > :11:19.there is suddenly a whopping amount above 80,000, what will happen? We
:11:20. > :11:24.will have to wait for those figures. Do you think we will get them? The
:11:25. > :11:32.actual workings of what will happen to the 40% rate? Will there be a 50
:11:33. > :11:36.or 60% rate? We will get the above 80 grand rate. I doubt they will get
:11:37. > :11:40.into income tax thresholds which affect lower rate and middle rate
:11:41. > :11:44.taxpayers will stop they have not said they will touch them? They have
:11:45. > :11:49.said they will not move up the actual base rate and they have not
:11:50. > :11:50.talked about thresholds. The Tories have talked about moving both
:11:51. > :12:01.thresholds. The clause five meeting is just
:12:02. > :12:07.getting under way. Let's have a look at what Len McCluskey had to say. A
:12:08. > :12:11.number of the policies you will see formerly emerged today are really
:12:12. > :12:14.exciting. The British electorate can only look at that rather than the
:12:15. > :12:19.obsession that you people have about the leadership of the Labour Party.
:12:20. > :12:28.I think we could have some interesting... An extra tax for high
:12:29. > :12:32.wage earners? The overall policies that will emerge will be in favour
:12:33. > :12:37.of ordinary working people and that is the key. Naturally we asked to
:12:38. > :12:40.speak to the Labour Party this morning given the leak of the draft,
:12:41. > :12:44.but we were told most of the significant figures were in the
:12:45. > :12:50.clause five meeting and no one else could speak to us.
:12:51. > :12:57.We are joined by the former communications strategy member for
:12:58. > :13:03.the party. Is the leak embarrassing or irrelevant? Embarrassing, I do
:13:04. > :13:06.not know who has done it and for what reason. There are three
:13:07. > :13:11.different conspiracy theories. One is it was done by somebody to
:13:12. > :13:15.undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Another it was done by somebody close to him to
:13:16. > :13:20.make it look as if they were trying to undermine him and the third is
:13:21. > :13:25.get it out now, so it is harder to roll back some of the wilder ideas.
:13:26. > :13:30.We do not know whether this clause five committee will be that active.
:13:31. > :13:33.Do you think there could be a lot of changes or will it have been
:13:34. > :13:41.preagreed by and large and changes will be at the margins? Last time, I
:13:42. > :13:45.can only speak for 2015, we introduced another page in the
:13:46. > :13:51.manifesto after clause five which caused some consternation at the
:13:52. > :13:54.time. What was in it? Our budget responsibility lock so everything
:13:55. > :13:58.was costed. There may be something like that this time as well. What do
:13:59. > :14:05.you make of it over or as a manifesto? Our match at the last
:14:06. > :14:10.election was big reform, not big spending. There is some big spending
:14:11. > :14:14.there. That said, properly funded social care, NHS and schools are
:14:15. > :14:19.what Labour governments are about. It is what Tony Blair's government
:14:20. > :14:24.was about. There is nothing here as extreme as leaving the single market
:14:25. > :14:27.at any cost, bringing back grammar schools and nothing as dishonest as
:14:28. > :14:33.promising to cut immigration when you know you cannot do it. There was
:14:34. > :14:38.a labour leader who famously said that socialism was the language of
:14:39. > :14:42.priorities. When you read the draft, it is a list of spending
:14:43. > :14:46.commitments. It is not a list of priorities. We would like to do the
:14:47. > :14:50.following, but we cannot afford to do it all in one parliament or
:14:51. > :14:56.perhaps two, but this is what we will do. That is not in the draft.
:14:57. > :15:03.We do not yet know how they plan to fund it or if they will set out
:15:04. > :15:07.detailed funding plans. The most biggest problem is they seem to be
:15:08. > :15:12.ducking and diving on Brexit and membership of the single market and
:15:13. > :15:15.immigration. This is what this election is about. Theresa May is
:15:16. > :15:20.seeking a massive, personal mandate to do whatever she wants on Brexit
:15:21. > :15:24.and the Labour Party has a duty and an opportunity to hold her feet to
:15:25. > :15:29.the fire and they are changing the subject.
:15:30. > :15:36.But the draft manifesto has very little to say about numbers? It says
:15:37. > :15:39.it is prioritising jobs and if that is the case, you prioritise the
:15:40. > :15:42.single market ahead of getting rid of freedom of movement. But they
:15:43. > :15:48.have given up with that idea. I think that is a mistake. Be seen to
:15:49. > :15:51.be in opposition, mirror image of Theresa May's and the Labour
:15:52. > :15:55.manifesto seems to be saying that a bad deal would be better than no
:15:56. > :15:59.deal. I think the Labour Party is saying that if Theresa May comes up
:16:00. > :16:04.with a bad deal, they are going to vote against it. No, no, this is a
:16:05. > :16:08.manifesto for power, assuming that they will be doing the negotiations.
:16:09. > :16:13.They say that if they are in that position, they will not contemplate
:16:14. > :16:17.not doing a deal. There will not be a situation where they will do no
:16:18. > :16:21.deal. So logically that means that you are prepared to accept a bad
:16:22. > :16:26.deal rather than no deal. No, it means that you try very hard to get
:16:27. > :16:29.a good deal. Theresa May's negotiating position is essentially,
:16:30. > :16:32.if I do not get what I want, I will shoot myself. That is not a great
:16:33. > :16:41.negotiating position. Isn't it? Don't you need the other side, and
:16:42. > :16:44.Brussels are a master at negotiations, just look at Greece
:16:45. > :16:48.who had to go through it all, don't you have to let them know that there
:16:49. > :16:53.are some things on which you do not negotiate openly and have give and
:16:54. > :16:56.take, we will walk away. Walking away from the table, unequal
:16:57. > :17:01.negotiation, is not an option. If we walk away from the table, we go off
:17:02. > :17:05.the cliff. It is a disaster for the economy and a disaster for our
:17:06. > :17:08.country. We have to get a good deal and work with Europe so that both
:17:09. > :17:11.sides think they get something out of this. At the moment it is being
:17:12. > :17:15.done as he was going to win and who is going to lose. But a lot of what
:17:16. > :17:18.is said now at the start of the negotiations will seem irrelevant in
:17:19. > :17:23.a couple of months. And that is precisely the problem. This is why
:17:24. > :17:27.it is so interesting. Theresa May is seeking a mandate to strengthen her
:17:28. > :17:30.hand. When she does not want any scrutiny or debate about what her
:17:31. > :17:38.plan is for Brexit. It is fundamentally dishonest. Labour's
:17:39. > :17:42.reputation, which has been undermined in 2015, is that it is a
:17:43. > :17:48.profligate party, a tax-and-spend party. And that it is into borrowing
:17:49. > :17:53.too much as well. In what way does this manifesto counteract that
:17:54. > :17:57.image? Well, we will have to see because it is a draft manifesto.
:17:58. > :18:01.Someone said to me this morning it was a draft suicide note. I am
:18:02. > :18:06.saying it is a draft manifesto. But we don't know who they are going to
:18:07. > :18:09.play with us yet. We know that they are saying that everything will be
:18:10. > :18:13.properly costed but your question is a fair question. Why are we
:18:14. > :18:19.introducing that extra page of the manifesto? It was to counteract
:18:20. > :18:22.that. And we earned credit for that, that very strict policy. And it is
:18:23. > :18:25.ironic because the Tories went into the last election saying that the
:18:26. > :18:29.only thing that mattered was clearing the deficit and balancing
:18:30. > :18:32.the books. And now it doesn't matter. So when you talk about
:18:33. > :18:36.credibility, we have to remember the Tories have promised a lot on
:18:37. > :18:41.clearing the deficit and they have not done it. They have cut it, but
:18:42. > :18:44.they have got nowhere near. They have promised that in both
:18:45. > :18:50.elections. Putting aside the Welsh Labour Party, you are a socialist, I
:18:51. > :18:53.think. Is not a lot of this which is attractive socialism for you? There
:18:54. > :18:59.is no doubt that the cuts that we have seen to public services over
:19:00. > :19:01.the last, well, since the banking crash in 2008 effectively, as
:19:02. > :19:06.decimated public services in some places. They have stripped out
:19:07. > :19:10.really valuable community assets in the communities that I represent, we
:19:11. > :19:15.have lost libraries, play facilities for children. And you need to invest
:19:16. > :19:22.in public services. So you would generally approve of this? It is not
:19:23. > :19:28.my manifesto and I'm not defending it, because we will be publishing
:19:29. > :19:31.our own manifesto. Why have you lot in the -- why have you not link to
:19:32. > :19:35.your manifesto? We are a bit tighter on these things. The principle of
:19:36. > :19:38.investment in public services and public sector workers is something
:19:39. > :19:43.we can definitely support. Is this an election winning manifesto? We
:19:44. > :19:47.will have to wait and see. Well, that is a definitive answer. I tell
:19:48. > :19:51.you what, it may be a manifesto with one eye on a leadership contest
:19:52. > :19:54.after the election rather than a general election. Explain what you
:19:55. > :19:57.mean about that. Jeremy Corbyn's people seem to be going round and
:19:58. > :20:01.the test of whether Jeremy Corbyn stays on now is whether he matches
:20:02. > :20:05.Ed Miliband's percentage share of the vote. It is the wrong test. The
:20:06. > :20:07.last leader of any major political party to stay on after an election
:20:08. > :20:27.was Neil Kinnock and he cut the Tory majority by 40. If
:20:28. > :20:30.Jeremy Corbyn does that, we are out of Parliament and of course he stays
:20:31. > :20:32.on, but that is the minimum bar to reach. We seem to be operating on
:20:33. > :20:35.the assumption that the Tories are going to win. I can read the polls
:20:36. > :20:38.as well as anyone else can and you would be mad to say anything
:20:39. > :20:41.different. Thank you very much for talking to us. We would have had no
:20:42. > :20:44.one else to talk to about this if you had not come in. Emma Vardy is
:20:45. > :20:45.outside Labour's meeting with more news. Our daily round-up of the rest
:20:46. > :20:49.of today 's election campaign. Well, this is one of the key dates
:20:50. > :20:53.in Labour's general election campaign, the meeting at which the
:20:54. > :20:58.party signs off its policies to go into the manifesto. But of course
:20:59. > :21:03.today it rather feels that the cat is out of the bag because of that
:21:04. > :21:07.almighty leak last night. In the past hour, senior Labour Party
:21:08. > :21:13.members have been arriving here. The meeting got underway about 20
:21:14. > :21:17.minutes ago and is being chaired by Jeremy Corbyn. But the star
:21:18. > :21:20.performer himself failed to turn up to an earlier engagement today. With
:21:21. > :21:21.that and more, here is the campaign round-up.
:21:22. > :21:28.Jeremy Corbyn pulled out of Labour's election poster launch this morning
:21:29. > :21:31.after the party's draft manifesto was leaked to the press.
:21:32. > :21:33.As the poster was unveiled on the South bank in London,
:21:34. > :21:37.election coordinator Ian Lavery stepped in.
:21:38. > :21:40.Mr Corbyn is doing the print work for a very important
:21:41. > :21:46.meeting this afternoon, the clause five meeting.
:21:47. > :21:51.Meanwhile, there was a ringing endorsement for Jeremy Corbyn
:21:52. > :22:05.from what he thought was the grime artist Stormzy on the phone.
:22:06. > :22:09.A prankster pretending to be the Corbyn supporter
:22:10. > :22:22.rapper managed to be put through to the man himself.
:22:23. > :22:33.Comedian Hayden Prowse was behind the joke.
:22:34. > :22:36.They have campaigned for Cornwall every election since 1970,
:22:37. > :22:38.but now the Cornish nationalists have said they will not
:22:39. > :22:41.be putting forward any candidates this time around.
:22:42. > :22:44.The party blamed the timing of the 2017 general election,
:22:45. > :22:53.saying it was impractical to finance a meaningful campaign.
:22:54. > :22:56.In the world of internet fandom, we've had the Beliebers,
:22:57. > :22:58.and the news craze taking over is the Mayllennials.
:22:59. > :23:00.Not all of them agree with her policies, but young women
:23:01. > :23:08.who love Theresa May are sharing images of her on the net.
:23:09. > :23:10.Fishing was a big issue in the referendum campaign.
:23:11. > :23:14.And Ukip were keen to keep it on the agenda today.
:23:15. > :23:20.We are an island nation and control of our waters has been
:23:21. > :23:29.Setting out their aim to pull out of the EU's Common Fisheries Policy.
:23:30. > :23:35.Some of the Labour heavyweights gave a few lively responses, I am told,
:23:36. > :23:39.as they arrived here earlier and were pressed by the media scrum
:23:40. > :23:44.about that leaked manifesto. Dave Anderson accused the media of
:23:45. > :23:48.handling stolen goods, while Margaret Beckett, when she was asked
:23:49. > :23:52.whether she was the one who leaked it, apparently responded by saying,
:23:53. > :23:57.don't be ridiculous, I haven't bloody read it yet. I am told that
:23:58. > :24:03.the Tory manifesto was being kept on a much tighter leash. Will it stay
:24:04. > :24:09.that way? We will see. Thanks, Emma. We will see. Hopefully
:24:10. > :24:10.that starts a trend that all the manifestos will be leaked and we
:24:11. > :24:12.will have more to talk about. The Conservatives have this morning
:24:13. > :24:16.pledged above inflation increases to defence spending in every year
:24:17. > :24:19.of the next Parliament in order to meet a NATO commitment to spend
:24:20. > :24:26.2% of GDP on defence. We are setting out in our manifesto
:24:27. > :24:30.our spending for the NHS and schools and other important areas,
:24:31. > :24:33.but the most important duty of all for any government
:24:34. > :24:37.is to keep our country safe and that is why we are recommitting
:24:38. > :24:42.today to the 2% target that Nato has set to a growing defence budget that
:24:43. > :24:46.gives our armed forces the equipment Well we asked to speak to a defence
:24:47. > :24:54.minister this morning, none was available, but I am joined
:24:55. > :25:02.by the Conservative James Cleverly. Thank you for joining us. Michael
:25:03. > :25:05.Fallon says that Jeremy Corbyn is essentially a pacifist and he would
:25:06. > :25:10.make a dangerous leader, saying that the use of our Armed Forces would be
:25:11. > :25:15.a last resort. What is wrong with military action being a last resort?
:25:16. > :25:18.Well, it depends on your definition of what a last resort is. We have
:25:19. > :25:21.already seen Jeremy Corbyn saying that he would be unwilling to use
:25:22. > :25:26.defence technology like drone aircraft to take out the leader of
:25:27. > :25:30.Isis. If you do not think that eradicating the leader of one of the
:25:31. > :25:34.most violent death cults in the world is an action of last resort,
:25:35. > :25:38.then I think we have a question about definition. But in general was
:25:39. > :25:42.it not a wise position that we only commit military power, the lives of
:25:43. > :25:46.our men and women in the military, as a last resort? Of course, but it
:25:47. > :25:56.is about how you define what a last resort is? Again, we have questions
:25:57. > :25:57.over Jeremy Corbyn's commitment to British soldiers actually using
:25:58. > :26:02.deadly force in defence of themselves. If we have a national
:26:03. > :26:05.leader that the British Armed Forces do not feel is going to back them
:26:06. > :26:09.when they have to make difficult decisions, that puts them in a
:26:10. > :26:14.difficult place. Well, I think in some ways he was misinterpreted what
:26:15. > :26:21.he had said. But sending thousands and thousands of troops to invade
:26:22. > :26:26.Iraq, as this country did in 2003, that is not a last resort. Well,
:26:27. > :26:31.look, we can kick around the definitions... And Mr Corbyn was
:26:32. > :26:39.against it. But the really important thing is... But you have said that
:26:40. > :26:42.it matters, and is sending another 100,000 troops to Afghanistan in a
:26:43. > :26:47.war that seems never-ending, 16 years the allies have been there, is
:26:48. > :26:50.that a last resort? Well, this announcement today is not about the
:26:51. > :26:55.decisions as to whether to deploy or not to deploy, it is about
:26:56. > :26:59.reasserting our commitment to match our little promise, that's 2% of
:27:00. > :27:04.GDP, and to increase defence spending by half a percent of
:27:05. > :27:08.inflation until 2020. But we are about to send another hundred troops
:27:09. > :27:12.to Afghanistan. Have we learned nothing in the past 16 years? 100
:27:13. > :27:17.troops? What difference will that make in Afghanistan. British troops
:27:18. > :27:22.are incredibly good and we have a fantastic track record. That is not
:27:23. > :27:25.the issue. We have a track record of training local troops to defend
:27:26. > :27:28.their own country and we are doing it in Afghanistan. We have done it
:27:29. > :27:30.in a number of places. But the Afghanistan troops are taking
:27:31. > :27:38.horrendous casualties at the moment and despite our training, and the
:27:39. > :27:42.American training. And our training will help the local troops to reduce
:27:43. > :27:45.their casualties. They haven't for 16 years and the casualties are
:27:46. > :27:53.getting worse. Is that a last resort? Why are we doing this? Well,
:27:54. > :27:57.because we have got to maintain our presence, a global presence round
:27:58. > :28:01.the world. We have to support our allies when they are taking the
:28:02. > :28:03.fight to international terrorism. That is a one standing commitment of
:28:04. > :28:07.the British government and the British Armed Forces and I do not
:28:08. > :28:13.think that any credible but it will party is putting a question mark
:28:14. > :28:16.over that. The party boasts of meeting the 2% Nato commitment but
:28:17. > :28:20.it is bit Dylan McGeouch that of a fiddle. It contains a lot of things
:28:21. > :28:25.that have nothing to do with core defence spending. Well, the defence
:28:26. > :28:29.Dylan McGeouch edition we use for 2% is the definition agreed by Nato and
:28:30. > :28:32.seeing as it is a commitment to the British government has made to our
:28:33. > :28:36.Armed Forces to the population, and most importantly to our Nato allies
:28:37. > :28:40.is Nato are happy with the definition, then I am happy with the
:28:41. > :28:44.definition. But it includes military pensions, which is a big
:28:45. > :28:48.expenditure. How does that help? Well, if Nato are happy with the
:28:49. > :28:52.definition, I am happy. And if you want to recruit and retain service
:28:53. > :28:56.personnel, it is important that they know they will be looked after when
:28:57. > :28:59.they retire. It is an important part of what the military prescribes as
:29:00. > :29:03.the moral component. How big a hole is there in our defence spending
:29:04. > :29:08.because the fall in the value of the pound since Brexit has made the
:29:09. > :29:12.purchase of new aircraft carriers more expensive, the upgrading of
:29:13. > :29:17.Apache helicopters, the new Trident missile defence, that is all going
:29:18. > :29:22.up in price. Well, you will inevitably have cost increases when
:29:23. > :29:27.you have currency fluctuations but these programmes are multi decade
:29:28. > :29:31.programmes. And I have no doubt at all that at some point in the future
:29:32. > :29:39.the value of the pound will increase and the relative costs will vary. So
:29:40. > :29:42.over the lifetime costs of these equipmentss, these currencies will
:29:43. > :29:53.be for trading. -- the lifetime costs of this equipment. You have
:29:54. > :29:56.cut spending to the lowest since the Napoleonic Wars. Sir Richard
:29:57. > :30:03.Sheriff, the Nato supreme commander since 2014, he says that he would
:30:04. > :30:06.question whether the UK could deploy a division for war, a division. I
:30:07. > :30:11.think that is highly unlikely, he says. That is quite a criticism of
:30:12. > :30:15.your party's record. We could not deploy a division? We are spending
:30:16. > :30:23.35 or ?36 billion a year on defence and we could not deploy a division?
:30:24. > :30:31.Well, I am not going to agree with those estimations. I do not
:30:32. > :30:38.criticise various people for making their own assessments but we have
:30:39. > :30:48.seen a significant investment in cutting-edge technology. Apache
:30:49. > :30:51.helicopters, Ajax... But it is not much use if you do not have the
:30:52. > :30:55.people to go into the battlefield. Numbers are important, of course
:30:56. > :31:02.they are, but in an increasingly sophisticated technology driven
:31:03. > :31:06.battle space, raw numbers are not always the most important metric and
:31:07. > :31:09.making sure that our Armed Forces, on sea, land or a, have got the
:31:10. > :31:14.absolute cutting-edge equipment is really important. And we are
:31:15. > :31:20.maintaining our equipment programme. Land or air. Would you support 2%
:31:21. > :31:26.GDP on defence? I think the priority within defence spending is wrong. I
:31:27. > :31:29.think I see no sense in committing ?200 billion to replacing Trident,
:31:30. > :31:34.for example, when there are soldiers without basic equipment, when we
:31:35. > :31:35.have people coming out of the Armed Forces with poor access to mental
:31:36. > :31:47.health programmes and so on. But would you take any savings from
:31:48. > :31:54.Trident? It is only about 3% of our defence spending. Would you spend it
:31:55. > :31:58.outside defence? Some would go to redeploying in the defence budget.
:31:59. > :32:01.We need to put more emphasis on intelligence and think about the
:32:02. > :32:05.kind of threat we face today which are different to what they were 20
:32:06. > :32:10.years ago. Have we not have a massive increase in the intelligence
:32:11. > :32:14.budget in the last five years? We cannot take our eye off the ball.
:32:15. > :32:19.They are recruiting hundreds of people. What I am saying is
:32:20. > :32:25.priorities are wrong and to invest in nuclear weapons systems that very
:32:26. > :32:28.few leaders would actually use, I cannot envisage the circumstances
:32:29. > :32:32.under which anyone would actually press that button, why would we even
:32:33. > :32:37.consider spending ?200 billion on that when there are other things? I
:32:38. > :32:40.mentioned earlier about public services. There are many things that
:32:41. > :32:47.need investment and I do not think that is one of them. Michael Fallon
:32:48. > :32:51.also said, this is the final question, that he attacked Labour
:32:52. > :32:56.when they said they would stop sending arms to the Saudis until
:32:57. > :32:59.they can prove they are willing and able to comply with international,
:33:00. > :33:03.humanitarian law. The government said it would continue to send
:33:04. > :33:06.weapons to Saudi Arabia. What is wrong with trying to find out if
:33:07. > :33:12.they are complying with international, humanitarian law? The
:33:13. > :33:17.principle is the same principle you would have in any circumstances like
:33:18. > :33:23.this. You cannot pre-empt the outcome of a review like that. I
:33:24. > :33:28.think Saudi Arabia are, and have been for a long time an incredibly
:33:29. > :33:32.important regional ally. They have been at the forefront of the fight
:33:33. > :33:38.against terrorism. The intelligence we share with them has kept British
:33:39. > :33:42.people save both in Saudi Arabia and around the world. You do not have a
:33:43. > :33:47.review on whether they are complying with international, humanitarian
:33:48. > :33:51.law. You just sell them regardless. The relationship Britain has with
:33:52. > :33:56.Saudi Arabia is a long-standing one. But their humanitarian record does
:33:57. > :34:02.not match it. Do not put words in my mouth. I am not. I am saying we have
:34:03. > :34:07.a close, honest and straight talking relationship with the Saudis.
:34:08. > :34:14.Concerns are raised and conversations are had at the most
:34:15. > :34:20.senior level. But to try and smear a close, long-standing regional ally
:34:21. > :34:25.like this is childish. Why is asking for a review of their compliance on
:34:26. > :34:29.humanitarian issues a smear? What was being said by the Labour Party
:34:30. > :34:36.is we are going to unilaterally withdraw defence cooperation with
:34:37. > :34:37.the Saudis if they can prove something. That is a very childish
:34:38. > :34:40.policy. The Green Party have been
:34:41. > :34:42.launching their environment manifesto this morning,
:34:43. > :34:44.that's pretty important for a party It includes a promise to end
:34:45. > :34:49.the dominance of the "big six" energy companies by creating
:34:50. > :34:51.locally-owned competitors, and they'd create a bottle
:34:52. > :34:53.deposit scheme to stop them The word environment has hardly even
:34:54. > :34:58.been mentioned in this It has been conspicuous
:34:59. > :35:02.by its absence. We are here this morning to put
:35:03. > :35:05.that right and to say that the Green Party will continue
:35:06. > :35:08.to put a healthy, thriving environment at the heart
:35:09. > :35:12.of all of our policies at the heart So that's the Green Party's
:35:13. > :35:26.policy announcement today, And we invited them on the show
:35:27. > :35:33.to discuss it, but they declined. But if you were watching yesterday's
:35:34. > :35:36.show you'll have seen we interviewed the party's co-leader Caroline Lucas
:35:37. > :35:38.about her plans for a so-called "progressive alliance" and I asked
:35:39. > :35:41.her about reports her party had been offered ?250,000 by a mystery donor
:35:42. > :35:43.not to stand. I don't know the name of the person,
:35:44. > :35:50.I know of the incident you are talking about,
:35:51. > :35:56.but it happened after the decision had already been taken to stand down
:35:57. > :35:59.and the money was not accepted. Any kind of implication
:36:00. > :36:02.that we were standing down in order for money is absolutely
:36:03. > :36:03.wrong, categorically wrong. It happened after the decision
:36:04. > :36:06.was taken and the money I believe so, I didn't
:36:07. > :36:10.speak to them directly, But as joint leader of the party
:36:11. > :36:15.if somebody offers you ?250,000 I don't remember the name,
:36:16. > :36:18.I've heard the name, but the point was it went
:36:19. > :36:21.through our ethical checks, it did not pass our ethical checks,
:36:22. > :36:30.the money was not accepted. Caroline Lucas yesterday
:36:31. > :36:33.on this programme. So as I said the Green Party didn't
:36:34. > :36:36.want to come on to tell us if they've remembered the name
:36:37. > :36:39.of this mystery donor yet, but were told they didn't
:36:40. > :36:41.want to discuss it any further. They said instead: "No donation
:36:42. > :36:44.was either made or accepted on the basis that we stand down
:36:45. > :36:46.in Richmond Park. All donations offered
:36:47. > :36:48.to the Green Party have to be scrutinised by our ethical criteria
:36:49. > :36:51.and all those accepted can be found on the Electoral
:36:52. > :36:55.Commission website." Now, the Daily Politics moodbox
:36:56. > :36:58.could be coming to a town near you, because it's on tour
:36:59. > :37:15.during the election campaign. Yes, we are in Wales and we are in
:37:16. > :37:18.Holyhead on the island of Anglesey. Over my shoulder is where the
:37:19. > :37:24.lorries line-up to get the ferry to Ireland. This constituency has been
:37:25. > :37:28.held by Plaid Cymru, the Conservatives and most recently by
:37:29. > :37:33.Labour. When we were in Derby the other day and asking people about
:37:34. > :37:36.the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, here we are asking about the
:37:37. > :37:41.Conservative leader and the Prime Minister Theresa May. We were asking
:37:42. > :37:45.that she make people more likely to vote Conservative and does it make a
:37:46. > :37:47.difference? And we have gone bilingual. We have got the box in
:37:48. > :37:53.We have got the box in Welsh as well.
:37:54. > :38:19.Because I think she'll do a lot for the country.
:38:20. > :38:21.Sir, sir, what do you think about Theresa May?
:38:22. > :38:24.She seems to be very unflappable, she's not easily swayed.
:38:25. > :38:29.She doesn't seem a person who will be pushed to making a decision
:38:30. > :38:37.To be honest with you, I've not taken notice of it.
:38:38. > :38:39.You've not taken notice of Theresa May?
:38:40. > :38:44.Do you not care who the Prime Minister is?
:38:45. > :38:49.When I say the name Theresa May, what words pop into your head?
:38:50. > :39:07.Does she make you think of the words 'strong' and 'stable'?
:39:08. > :39:17.Theresa Maybe, she has got no - she changes like a weather
:39:18. > :39:32.The price of food is rocketing at the moment.
:39:33. > :39:37.And do you think Theresa May could get a better deal?
:39:38. > :39:40.Being a single mum of two kids, working is hard work, so yeah.
:39:41. > :39:43.Do you think Theresa May is going to stand up for you?
:39:44. > :39:47.She's the only person who can, isn't she, at the moment?
:39:48. > :39:59.Well, it's totally unscientific of course but this result suggests
:40:00. > :40:02.that Theresa Mania might be limited in this part of Wales
:40:03. > :40:12.and no, I don't know how to say that in Welsh.
:40:13. > :40:18.And we are joined by the former Welsh Secretary Stephen Crabb and
:40:19. > :40:23.Leanne Wood is here with us in the studio. You described the Tories as
:40:24. > :40:30.toxic and irrelevant in Wales. The latest YouGov, ITV, Cardiff
:40:31. > :40:38.University poll, taken up to made seven, has them with four times the
:40:39. > :40:43.support of your party. Last Thursday in the local elections Plaid Cymru
:40:44. > :40:46.one 220 council seats to the Conservative' 184 and in terms of
:40:47. > :40:52.the council elections we have beaten them. We came within just four seeds
:40:53. > :40:57.of getting our best ever council election results last week which
:40:58. > :41:02.puts us in a good position to contest the next election. It is all
:41:03. > :41:06.about defending Wales now as far as we are concerned. That is a fair
:41:07. > :41:10.point, because you came third in Wales in the local elections, so
:41:11. > :41:14.maybe the general election will not be as good for you as the polls
:41:15. > :41:19.suggest. We keep saying we should not read from local election results
:41:20. > :41:23.and read across to make general election predictions. Leanne Wood
:41:24. > :41:28.used all of the same lines she is using today does years ago at the
:41:29. > :41:31.election in 2015 and described the Tories as toxic in Wales and we made
:41:32. > :41:37.big gains at that general election, going from eight to 11 seats. Plaid
:41:38. > :41:41.Cymru were stuck on three. Let's see how the next month plays out and
:41:42. > :41:46.let's see what the results will be in Wales on the 8th of June. You
:41:47. > :41:50.have accused the Tories of planning a power grab against Wales. What is
:41:51. > :41:56.the evidence they will grab power is back? In the Great Repeal Bill,
:41:57. > :42:03.Klaus 4.2, talks about the powers in Brussels currently which have
:42:04. > :42:08.devolved competence, going back straight to Westminster, not
:42:09. > :42:12.Cardiff. Matters that are currently under the competence of the national
:42:13. > :42:17.assembly for Wales, if the Tories have their way, they will be taken
:42:18. > :42:21.back to London. You do not have these powers, these powers are with
:42:22. > :42:26.Brussels and under the repeal Bill they will go to London. The repeal
:42:27. > :42:30.Bill does not take powers from Cardiff to London. We are talking
:42:31. > :42:37.about areas of devolved competence like agriculture. Why would that
:42:38. > :42:42.change? They may pass on the powers, Westminster may just be a shunting
:42:43. > :42:46.ground and they may pass them from Brussels to London to Cardiff. We
:42:47. > :42:50.have recently had a Wales Bill which lists all those matters that are
:42:51. > :42:54.reserved to Westminster and that is rolling back on some of the powers
:42:55. > :42:59.that the National Assembly has. We need to strengthen our national
:43:00. > :43:04.assembly. Are you planning a power grab? This is a nonsense discussion.
:43:05. > :43:07.Theresa May and her teams have made clear that the areas of policy that
:43:08. > :43:13.are now the responsibility of the Welsh government in Cardiff will be
:43:14. > :43:16.respected. We need to think about the frameworks that are currently
:43:17. > :43:21.held at brussels level, like farm support payments and other EU wide
:43:22. > :43:24.competences. How would translate that back into the UK now that we
:43:25. > :43:29.are taking back control by leaving the European Union. But nobody is
:43:30. > :43:33.talking about somehow trying to remove powers or competencies from
:43:34. > :43:39.Wales. Only Plaid Cymru are saying this. That is not true. They are a
:43:40. > :43:45.Welsh nationalist party and they are desperate for things to hang their
:43:46. > :43:49.rhetoric on. On the day after the referendum, the decision to leave
:43:50. > :43:53.the European Union, the leader of Plaid Cymru in Wales said he would
:43:54. > :43:57.not be surprised if the referendum we won in 1997 to establish the
:43:58. > :44:01.National Assembly would have a different vote in the light of the
:44:02. > :44:06.decision to leave the European Union. That gives us an idea of the
:44:07. > :44:11.kind of thinking that is going on. Are you saying the Tories want to
:44:12. > :44:15.close the assembly down? Some would go there if they had an opportunity.
:44:16. > :44:20.They were against setting up the assembly when we had the referendum
:44:21. > :44:25.in 1997. They have come on board because they are benefiting out of
:44:26. > :44:28.it. I would not be surprised, especially if we see more Ukip tide
:44:29. > :44:34.is going to the Conservative Party and they become even further to the
:44:35. > :44:40.right. What do you say to that? We have just passed a law in Parliament
:44:41. > :44:44.which I helped write which enshrines and recognises the permanency of
:44:45. > :44:48.devolved government in Wales and the plays of the Welsh assembly. Listen
:44:49. > :44:52.to who is saying this, I Welsh nationalist party that is desperate
:44:53. > :44:56.to find things to hang their rhetoric on in the general election
:44:57. > :45:00.where everybody in Wales on the doorstep is talking about the big
:45:01. > :45:06.United Kingdom issues. That is why they are looking for leadership in
:45:07. > :45:13.some unlike Theresa May. If not a power grab, what about money grab?
:45:14. > :45:19.The EU funding to Wales is about ?680 million coming from Brussels.
:45:20. > :45:24.We sent some of it out and it gets circulated back, but it goes from
:45:25. > :45:26.the EU to Wales, 680 million is a lot for a small economy. How will
:45:27. > :45:34.that be replaced? This is what we call structural
:45:35. > :45:37.funding. The purpose of the funds was to raise economic growth in
:45:38. > :45:41.Wales to the UK national level. We have had a lot of money from the EU
:45:42. > :45:44.over the last 15 years and a lot of it has been badly spent by Welsh
:45:45. > :45:47.Labour in Cardiff which is why the Welsh economy continues to rumble
:45:48. > :45:51.along at the bottom of the UK league table. We have an opportunity with
:45:52. > :45:55.Brexit to ask ourselves how we use this kind of funding in future. I
:45:56. > :45:59.have to say I absolutely believe that when we come out of the EU, the
:46:00. > :46:04.UK Government will need to look at something that replicates of those
:46:05. > :46:08.kind of structural funds. But we have to do it in a smarter way and
:46:09. > :46:11.be serious about using it to develop a UK wide industrial strategy, raise
:46:12. > :46:14.levels of productivity in Wales. That is the only way we will get
:46:15. > :46:18.better jobs that pay better wages and raise living standards for all
:46:19. > :46:23.people in Wales. What do you say about that? Well, they have no plan,
:46:24. > :46:27.they have no guarantees for the money we could lose. Wales has been
:46:28. > :46:31.ignored, neglected, since the decision to leave the European
:46:32. > :46:37.Union. It is vital that we have a strong team of Plaid Cymru MPs to
:46:38. > :46:40.defend the Welsh national interests and to defend the people in Wales
:46:41. > :46:43.against the Tories. I am concerned that the Tories with an increased
:46:44. > :46:51.mandate will wreck havoc on peoples lives. We are not -- they are not
:46:52. > :46:53.pro public service, they will carry on cutting public service
:46:54. > :46:58.infrastructure and public assets and I think we have to defend people in
:46:59. > :47:01.Wales from the worst of what they can throw at us. But what difference
:47:02. > :47:06.would a couple of Plaid Cymru MPs make to that? The SNP is have 56 out
:47:07. > :47:10.of 59 seats and they did little to rein in the Conservative government.
:47:11. > :47:11.What difference would it make. You only have three, maybe you will end
:47:12. > :47:29.up with two or four. What difference could it make? It is clear to me
:47:30. > :47:32.that Theresa May is speaking for English nationalism. We have a party
:47:33. > :47:34.in Scotland speaking for Scotland and there is no one at the moment
:47:35. > :47:37.speaking for Wales. Only Plaid Cymru will do that. Nobody has any
:47:38. > :47:39.question about our ability to do that. People trust and understand
:47:40. > :47:41.that Plaid Cymru will stand up for Wales. I used to the party of
:47:42. > :47:44.English nationalism? The days that people used to say the Conservative
:47:45. > :47:47.Party were somehow the English party in Wales, that was never true. Those
:47:48. > :47:50.days are long gone. We now have a good team in the Welsh Assembly in
:47:51. > :47:52.Cardiff and a good team of Welsh Conservative members of Parliament
:47:53. > :47:58.at Westminster. Lacazette previously, 11 MPs compared to Plaid
:47:59. > :48:03.Cymru's three. We are in a position where if what we're hearing on the
:48:04. > :48:06.doorsteps is to believe he might be believed, we can look forward to
:48:07. > :48:12.making some games in this general election. -- if what we're hearing
:48:13. > :48:15.on the doorsteps to be believed. We're looking to stand up for Welsh
:48:16. > :48:17.interests as part of the UK Government, taking the Britain we're
:48:18. > :48:19.looking to stand up for Welsh interests as part of the UK
:48:20. > :48:26.Government, taking the Britain country out of the EU -- taking the
:48:27. > :48:31.country out of the EU. We will leave it there. We will know how things go
:48:32. > :48:32.in Wales on the morning after June the 8th.
:48:33. > :48:38.Now, the Liberal Democrats have today announced they would allow
:48:39. > :48:48.Tim Farron, the Lib Dem leader said the estimated ?4.3 billion cost
:48:49. > :48:51.of the initiative would be paid back over time by the taxes and hard work
:48:52. > :48:55.Mr Farron also criticised the government for the "pitiful"
:48:56. > :48:56.number of refugees it currently accepts.
:48:57. > :49:00.Britain can either turn its back on those refugees, Theresa May
:49:01. > :49:02.ending the Dubs Amendment which means we are now
:49:03. > :49:04.turning our back on orphaned children in camps fleeing
:49:05. > :49:08.from Syria, and I just say what kind of Britain do you want to grow up
:49:09. > :49:14.in or do you want your children to grow up in?
:49:15. > :49:17.I want my Britain, the Britain I'm proud of to be outward looking,
:49:18. > :49:20.decent and to create a decent life for others.
:49:21. > :49:21.This is being true to Britain's character.
:49:22. > :49:23.What did Britain do after the Second World War?
:49:24. > :49:26.It opened its doors to those desperate children fleeing
:49:27. > :49:31.We're joined now by the Liberal Democrat, Tom Brake.
:49:32. > :49:39.So 50,000 Syrian refugees resettled from the camps. You have to fund it
:49:40. > :49:43.upfront. ?4.3 billion. Where will the money come from? Well, as Tim
:49:44. > :49:47.Farron set out, and we will be sitting out in our manifesto, which
:49:48. > :49:51.is fully costed, we will explain where that funding is going to come
:49:52. > :49:54.from. Can you do it this morning? You have announced the policy so why
:49:55. > :49:58.not tell us how he will pay for it? I think the details of costings will
:49:59. > :50:03.be in our manifesto for people to see next week. We know what it costs
:50:04. > :50:06.at the moment to support a refugee and we know how many the UK
:50:07. > :50:11.Government have taken so we can extrapolate the costs from that. The
:50:12. > :50:14.arguments you have given us is the costs, but I am asking how you will
:50:15. > :50:17.pay for it. Where will the money come from? As Timm has set out, we
:50:18. > :50:23.will ensure that it is properly funded. But how can we know that if
:50:24. > :50:27.you will not tell us? I am telling you that it is going to be in our
:50:28. > :50:31.costed manifesto. Why announce a policy like this? You have given us
:50:32. > :50:36.the figure, 50,000 Syrian refugees. You have given us the cost, and yet
:50:37. > :50:40.you cannot tell us the crucial bit, how you were going to pay for it?
:50:41. > :50:43.Because what we will do in our costed manifesto is we will be
:50:44. > :50:47.setting out the casting for all the proposals that we have got so it
:50:48. > :50:50.comes as a complete package. And therefore the sources of funding for
:50:51. > :50:55.it may well apply to other things that we are supporting. Another
:50:56. > :51:00.penny on income tax? That would pay for it, that would give you it. We
:51:01. > :51:05.have set out how that would be using terms of funding the NHS. Where
:51:06. > :51:07.would the refugees go? We have already seen local authorities
:51:08. > :51:13.willing to take refugees. There are many willing to provide more
:51:14. > :51:16.support. Clearly we would want to work with those local authorities to
:51:17. > :51:20.provide additional places. If you look at the scale of what we are
:51:21. > :51:24.proposing in terms of 50,000 in comparison with some of the
:51:25. > :51:27.countries in the region like Turkey which have taken 4 million, I think
:51:28. > :51:31.this is a relatively small contribution that the UK would be
:51:32. > :51:34.making. How many has your own borough of Sutton taken in terms of
:51:35. > :51:39.asylum seekers? As I understand it, we have taken over 20 young people
:51:40. > :51:47.as part of this process. The figure I've his format. It is your area. --
:51:48. > :51:53.the figure I've got is format. The figure I have is higher. Sutton is
:51:54. > :52:01.one of the most prosperous part of the country and you have taken four.
:52:02. > :52:08.Let's take the 20 instead, Salford, not the richest part in the country,
:52:09. > :52:15.728. Stockton on Tees, historically an area of high unemployment and
:52:16. > :52:19.industrial decline, 850. I get a prosperous area like yours manages
:52:20. > :52:26.four or 20. -- and yet a prosperous area like yours manages. Sutton is a
:52:27. > :52:32.prosperous area and there has been an attempt to get a pan London
:52:33. > :52:34.initiative set up, and it is through that process that Sutton has
:52:35. > :52:38.received refugees and we will continue to support young people in
:52:39. > :52:43.particular. But so far, you have not. What will change? You are
:52:44. > :52:48.talking about 50000 and all your borough can manages 20 on your
:52:49. > :52:52.figures. 50,000 over the term of a parliament, that is five years, that
:52:53. > :52:57.is 10,000 a year. That would be spread over literally hundreds of
:52:58. > :53:02.authorities. Each authority will only have to take a relatively small
:53:03. > :53:07.number of refugees each year. How come they tend to end up in the
:53:08. > :53:13.poorer parts of the country? Indeed, those parts of the country least
:53:14. > :53:20.equipped to welcome them. That may be down to the government's policy
:53:21. > :53:26.of relocating asylum seekers in the specific places where they tend to
:53:27. > :53:35.focus refugees or asylum seekers in a relatively little limited number
:53:36. > :53:38.of locations. Do you think -- what do you think of 50,000 refugees? It
:53:39. > :53:41.is a humanitarian disaster and we are not sticking our fair share of
:53:42. > :53:45.the responsibility at present so more needs to be done. The 20,000
:53:46. > :53:50.figure that they committed to has not been met, has it? So I do not
:53:51. > :53:57.think it is fair that those countries surrounding Syria, which
:53:58. > :53:58.in many cases are poor countries, take the biggest share of the
:53:59. > :54:04.burden. We will leave it there. Now, in the run up to
:54:05. > :54:07.the General Election we've been taking a look at some of the smaller
:54:08. > :54:10.parties hoping to win seats. Today it's the turn
:54:11. > :54:12.of the Pirate Party UK. They're fielding ten candidates,
:54:13. > :54:14.and I know Leanne was bitterly disappointed to learn they've got
:54:15. > :54:17.nothing to do with eye-patches, The Pirate Party UK was founded
:54:18. > :54:24.in 2009, and says it has the UK's Some of their policies include:
:54:25. > :54:38.lowering copyright duration Protecting the right to protest,
:54:39. > :54:41.including withholding labour. On privacy they oppose the so-called
:54:42. > :54:43."Snooper's Charter" and would see And they have policies
:54:44. > :54:47.on free speech including protecting all whistleblowers
:54:48. > :54:51.and reforming libel laws. We're joined in the studio
:54:52. > :55:01.now by Mark Chapman, Welcome to the programme. If you are
:55:02. > :55:07.a journalist, reforming the whistle-blowing was and libel was
:55:08. > :55:12.definitely has its attractions. But would you not be better trying to
:55:13. > :55:15.push these through mainstream parties to get them to adopt them,
:55:16. > :55:20.rather than building a party around something like that yourself? Well,
:55:21. > :55:28.that is an allegation you could make against old minor parties. We
:55:29. > :55:30.believe that we have a unique perspective on free speech,
:55:31. > :55:34.whistle-blowing and justice, but on wider things as well. We are party
:55:35. > :55:41.of freedom in all areas. We believe that people need to be free online
:55:42. > :55:44.as well as offline. We believe that people need to be able to
:55:45. > :55:47.communicate with one another without the government stepping on them,
:55:48. > :55:51.without them being able to read your e-mails. And do you think that is
:55:52. > :55:55.getting worse? Absolutely. We have seen with Theresa May as Home
:55:56. > :55:58.Secretary and Amber Rudd now, that looking to put in a back door to
:55:59. > :56:08.encryption, for example, is something that is akin to putting a
:56:09. > :56:10.key under your front door step. And I can understand the attraction of
:56:11. > :56:15.that. There have been cases were some of this has been misused.
:56:16. > :56:18.Journalists have been on the wrong end of it, not the hacking stuff,
:56:19. > :56:22.that is different, but trying to track down sources and so on, using
:56:23. > :56:32.what you are talking about. It is a harder argument, isn't it, when the
:56:33. > :56:38.war on terror, so-called, has become overwhelmingly a war of the
:56:39. > :56:42.intelligence services against those opposed to them. Absolutely. There
:56:43. > :56:45.is a real need in politics in Westminster for people who
:56:46. > :56:50.understand digital, who understand technology, who know exactly how
:56:51. > :56:56.this stuff works because we are really lacking in any politicians
:56:57. > :57:00.that have that background, that have that knowledge. You think the
:57:01. > :57:03.political classes do not quite understand the invocations of
:57:04. > :57:06.digital technology? They do not at all. And with regards to your
:57:07. > :57:12.comment about mass surveillance and the war on terror we think that
:57:13. > :57:17.money would be far better spent on targeted surveillance. It is no use
:57:18. > :57:22.adding more hay to the haystack if you are looking for a needle. Does
:57:23. > :57:26.that have an attraction to you? Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. I
:57:27. > :57:29.wanted to point out, you said you were the first party to crowd source
:57:30. > :57:33.your manifesto, I want to put on the record that Plaid Cymru crowd
:57:34. > :57:36.sourced our manifesto for the assembly elections last year. We had
:57:37. > :57:43.an online engagement. So that you could leak the manifesto online now?
:57:44. > :57:47.I would like to hope that we are... Our first manifesto was back in
:57:48. > :57:54.2010, so to be fair... Are you finding any traction among
:57:55. > :57:57.voters? We are. It is a tough one out there. It initially seems daft
:57:58. > :58:03.but when you speak to people and get them to realise that digital rights,
:58:04. > :58:07.the importance of technology affects every area of our lives, it affects
:58:08. > :58:11.children in our schools. What are our children learning about how to
:58:12. > :58:16.use technology? My 18-month-old already knows to swipe when he picks
:58:17. > :58:19.up a phone by default. We need our children to understand technology,
:58:20. > :58:23.that they can use it for good, so that we can really understand how to
:58:24. > :58:26.make society work in the future instead of being afraid of the past.
:58:27. > :58:33.And how many seats are you standing in? Ten. We thank you for coming on
:58:34. > :58:36.to explain. There was a famous Pirate Party in Sweden and they did
:58:37. > :58:44.quite well. We are hoping to build on their success. That's it for
:58:45. > :58:48.today. Thank you for all our guests. The Wonnacott uses beginning now on
:58:49. > :58:52.BBC One and I will be joined by Michael Portillo, Liz Kendall, Kevin
:58:53. > :58:57.Maguire, David Baddiel and Douglas Murray. That is straight after
:58:58. > :58:59.Question Time, BBC One, 11:45pm. Bye-bye. -- the one o'clock news is
:59:00. > :59:12.beginning now. The race is on to complete
:59:13. > :59:16.London's most ambitious railway.